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Subscribe to RSSUpdated 1:36 a.m. ET: A 55-year-old Egypt-born Coptic Christian man living in the Los Angeles area was a key figure behind the anti-Islam film "Innocence of Muslims," blamed for sparking riots and protests in the Middle East, a federal law enforcement official told NBC News Thursday.
Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, who is on probation after being convicted of financial crimes, also was twice sentenced to jail on drug charges in the late 1990s, the Los Angeles District Attorney’s Office said.
Court records show that Nakoula was convicted on federal fraud charges in Los Angeles in 2010. Among the conditions of his probation, Nakoula was barred from using "any online service at any location" without the prior approval of his probation officer, according to a copy of court records in the case.
Actors and the assistant director of the film "Innocence of Muslims" told NBC News that the original spoken lines in the screenplay were dubbed over without their knowledge. NBC's Mike Taibbi reports.
Federal law enforcement officials are investigating whether Nakoula violated his probation on those fraud charges in his efforts to promote the movie, an official has confirmed to NBC News.
The official emphasized that the current probe of Nakoula relates only to whether he violated his probation order — not into the content of the inflammatory movie.
"This is not an investigation of the film," the official said, or in any way intended to infringe on his "First Amendment rights."
It was not immediately clear whether Nakoula was the target of a criminal investigation or part of the broader U.S. investigation into the deaths of Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other Americans in Libya during an attack on the U.S. diplomatic outpost in Benghazi.
The crude and provocative anti-Islam video, blamed in part for sparking protests against U.S. diplomatic missions, was promoted by another Egyptian-born Coptic Christian named Morris Sadek on his website.
Copts make up a minority in Egypt where they have been victims of discrimination and sometimes attacks by Islamic extremists.
A trailer for the amateurish film, posted on YouTube in July and later reposted after being translated into Arabic, portrays Muhammad, the most important prophet in Islam, variously as a womanizer, a homosexual and a child abuser.
The translated clip, shown repeatedly on Egyptian television stations in recent weeks, was blamed for sparking protests across the Middle East and North Africa and was blamed for inciting an attacks on American diplomatic missions in several Middle Eastern cities.
U.S. officials are also investigating the possibility that the deadly Libya attack was planned in advance to coincide with the anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the United States by Islamist terrorists.
Related content:
Obama: Egypt not an ally of US, but not an enemy
Timeline: Political fallout from the attack on diplomats in Libya
The attack on the Libyan consulate, as it happened
NBC's Kerry Sanders talks about the controversial pastor's history of provocative acts against Islam and how he may be tied to an inflammatory film that has sparked uproar within the global Muslim community.
The mysterious origins of the film were the subject of intense reporting.
The Associated Press was first to report that it had reached the filmmaker who said he was an Israeli-American real estate developer from California who had made the movie by raising $5 million from wealthy Jewish donors. It gradually emerged that the man, who went by "Sam Bacile," was using an alias. The film, tied to U.S.-based Christians with extreme anti-Islam views, was produced on a low budget in southern California using actors who were apparently unaware of the film’s ultimate purpose.
Some of the information leading to Nakoula came from Morris Sadek, who is also an Egyptian-born American who had promoted the film on his website. Reporting in The Atlantic also connected the film to Steve Klein, a self-described militant Christian activist in Riverside, Calif., Klein indicated that the film maker contacted him as a consultant because Klein leads anti-Islam protests outside mosques and schools.
The 13-minute English-language trailer for the film was posted on YouTube in July by an account registered to a Sam Bacile. It shows the cast performing a wooden dialogue, with insults cast as revelations about Muhammad dubbed over the top.
The Quran forbids any depiction of Muhammad, and most Muslims regard any attempt to insult him as highly offensive. A Danish newspaper's 2005 publication of 12 caricatures of the prophet triggered riots in many Muslim countries.
Why films and cartoons of Muhammad spark violence
Actors: 'We were grossly misled'
Cindy Lee Garcia, of Bakersfield, California, who appears briefly in clips of the film posted online, said she answered a casting call last year to appear in a movie titled "Desert Warrior."
TODAY's Matt Lauer speaks with security analyst Michael Leiter about the likelihood that the attack on a U.S. consulate in Libya was a pre-meditated act by a group of al-Qaida sympathizers rather than a spontaneous uprising over an anti-Muslim Internet video.
"It looks so unreal to me, it's like nothing that we even filmed was there. There was all this weird stuff there," Garcia told Reuters in a phone interview.
Garcia said the film was shot in the summer of 2011 inside a church near Los Angeles, with actors standing in front of a "green screen," which allows background images to be added in post-production. About 50 actors were involved, she said.
Libya pledges to help US catch American officials' killers
An expired casting notice at Backstage.com listed a film named "Desert Warrior" that it described as a low-budget "historical Arabian Desert adventure film." None of the characters were identified in the casting call as Muhammad.
"They told me it was based on what it was like 2,000 years ago at the time of the Lord," Garcia said. "Like the time Christ was here."
A source close to the cast and crew of the film told NBC News that "Bacile" misled the actors and production crew.
"The entire crew and cast are extremely upset and feel taken advantage of by the producer," the source said. "We are 100 percent not behind this film and were grossly misled about its intent and purpose. We are shocked by the drastic rewrites of the script and lies that were told to all involved. We are deeply saddened by the tragedies that have occurred."
Zoubeir Souissi / Reuters
The U.S. Ambassador to Libya and three other Americans were killed after protesters angry over a film that ridiculed Islam's Prophet Muhammad stormed the U.S. consulate in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi, as protests spread across the region.
Nakoula's criminal background is the subject of mounting scrutiny in the wake of reports linking him to the anti-Islam movie.
In the late 1990s he was convicted on intent to manufacture methamphetamine, the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office confirmed.
After his conviction, Nakoula was sentenced to one year in jail — and then resentenced for another one year term in April 2002 after violating his probation. That was seven years before Nakoula was arrested again on federal bank fraud charges involving alleged identity theft. After pleading no contest, he was convicted in federal court in June 2010, sentenced to 21 months in federal prison and ordered to pay $794,700 in restitution.
Court records show that in the federal identify theft case against him, Nakoula used multiple aliases, including "Youseff M. Basseley" and "Niolca Bacily," to commit bank fraud.
Nakoula told the AP he was a Coptic Christian. Although denying he was "Bacile," Nakoula was quoted as saying the film's director supporting the concerns of Christian Coptics.
Meanwhile, a film industry spokesman confirmed that a Duarte, California-based evangelical Christian group called "Media for Christ" received a one day permit last year to make the film, a Los Angeles film official confirms to NBC News.
Media for Christ runs an Arabic language satellite TV station called "Way TV," according to the group's tax returns.
"The Way TV provides its audience with prayers, sermons, and hymns 24/7 to prepare them for Christ's happy and long awaited second coming," the tax returns state.
Media for Christ applied for and received the permit to make the film in Aug. 2011, listing the title then as "Desert Warriors," said a spokesman for Film LA, a non-profit that coordinates the awarding for film permits under contracts with the city and county of Los Angeles.
The listed producer on the film was "Sam Bossil," but LA Film has no other information about him, the spokesman said. A woman who answered the phone at Media for Christ Thursday hung up the phone Thursday.
Police patrolled the cul-de-sac in suburban Cerritos, Calif., where Nakoula is believed to live, NBCLosAngeles.com reported. Officers said the resident of the home asked for security after media descended on the two-story home.
Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
More world stories from NBC News:
- Protesters storm US Embassy in Yemeni capital
- Libya pledges to help US catch American officials' killers
- US won't rule out Islamist link in killing of US ambassador to Libya
- US Ambassador Chris Stevens was 'courageous and exemplary,' Obama says
- Despite dark past, young Israelis seek new lives in German capital
- No Obama-Netanyahu meeting as rift over Iran widens
Leave a Comment:
How quickly a Jewish extremist becomes a Christian extremist... (rolls eyes)
It is clearly a Jewish provocation aimed at stirring up people and dragging America ever deeper into Middle Eastern conflict.
Somehow, and I for one do not know how, the West must make it abundantly clear to all Muslim countries that we are intolerant of intolerance. This also means that we have to curtail our non-Muslim extremists, too.
I don't give a crap who made the film or what is on it, IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THESE PIGS KILLING INNOCENT AMERICAN!
NBC growp UP!
No ORB we do not. They want to convert or kill us, we do not have to accept that.
Where are the billions of so-called peace loving Muslims marchiong on the street against their supposebly worse half?
Where the hell are they?
Orb1943: Apparently Max is tolerant of intolerance. He would blame the Jews and Israel even if the article was about e-coli in lettuce. Max: Aside from your neo nazi skinhead views, which we are all well aware of, why don't you tell us a bit about your background. What did the Jews and Israel ever do to you personally? And try to be candid, which I know is a difficult concept for you. And don't identify yourself as a Palestinian unless you actually are one.
Realy? who said so? This is even not a Jewish or Israeli name!!!
And if he is Jewish so what???? Do you know how many things are published against Jews? You do not see Jews burning an embasy
Basil, his point is that they are trying to make others out as the extremist when we all know who the real problem is.
If Morris Sadek & Nakoula Basseley, two Egyptian Copts associated with hate groups in the USA are responsible for this production, I say deport them back to Egypt. They intentionally provoked these attacks against our countrymen overseas.
livingbarefoot--I agree. There is a lot bigger picture here. Islam wants to be the world religion. They are radical to the core.
Let's see, it was the anniversary of 911 and we just killed their number two and this was sparked by a movie that ten people went to see.
You see, if it was about the drone attacks, who would be wrongfully blamed?
Now if we had a Republican President, I am sure it would be okay for the media to blame him.
"Militant Christian activist". Ugh. Really? You're just as disgusting as the mental perverts that attacked the embassy. Thanks for defaming their imaginary god just to glorify your imaginary god and stirring up sh*t just to see what would happen.
You don't see these Muslims crashing Israels embassys, why? Because they would be shot dead in their tracks no questions asked. That is the only thing these Muslim animals understand, death.
This whole thing is fishy. If the teabaggers are found to be behind this, it is going to really backfire on them in a way they didn't imagine. So far, whoever these people are, they are very incompetent, and that points to a bagger. The party of Queen Lipstick can't do anything right.
Living Barefoot: Please view Max 108's other posts and you'll understand why I wrote what I did.
NBC aka the obuma news network will do anything to spin this into the fault of U.S. Christians. How pathetic. Too bad the heads of NBC weren't at the U.S. embassy in libya instead of the U.S. ambassador and those three other Americans.
it will be easy to ID, the person or persons behind this stupid production; the bigger problem is dealing with Muslim radicals, that blame America for allowing people to speak their views, no matter how dumb those views are.
starderup--get over it. Maybe the media can spin that next. They are the biggest joke. They have been in Obama's back pocket since he opened his mouth to run. They sway the votes, BIAS AS HELL!!
I will take your word Basil.
this just in, the person behind the film, is a convicted con artist, who says he is a Coptic Christian, born in Israel, and has used many different identity's; the actors have said, they were hired to make a film about desert life in the middle east, none of them spoke any of the Arabic languages, the entire thing was dubbed in a rented studio; in plain words it was some con artist trying to make a few bucks; America stop apologizing for every nut, con artist case in a nation of 365 million people.
Once again folks, I think we need to back up, shut up and wait for the last shoe to drop.
This is going to go places NOBODY ever dreamed it would go.
This "movie" was posted on YouTube in July, in English. When it got no reaction the clips on YouTube (but presumably NOT the whole movie) were re-dubbed in Farsi so that it could be understood in the Arab/Muslim world. Huh. Imagine that.
The whole point of this project appears to have been to inflame the middle east right before the election. It makes you wonder if Romney's rush to criticize wasn't part of the plan, but he blew it.
Anyway, you need to hold your horses here folks because this is a long way from over.
The FBI needs to find the "producer" determine who backed this farce and charge them all with hate crimes. Then we'll see who REALLY produced this movie and what it's purpose was and who should face charges for the deaths of the Ambassador and his staff.
I smell peanuts and pachyderm poop.
Obama/Biden 2012
I don't understand why Romney and Ryan insist on equating bigotry with free speech and defend this ridiculous film as a product of American values. Are they nuts? This is why Americans believe Republicans are just a bunch of intolerant haters. I saw Paul Ryan on Fox News last night and, to be honest, he spoke like an Aryan Nazi, condemning Obama for not supporting this film as representative of our constitutional right of free speech.
I'm really speechless over the whole thing. Why encourage this kind of trash? Yes, America stands behind hate films...proudly. Even if it means that we must go to war and die for it. Heil, Romney.
So, Max108, based on your argument, denigrating Jews, we Jews should call for your beheading.
And it seems as if Mitt is defending this film under the pretext of defending American Values. Under the first amendment... yes, but to say somehow it is connected to American Values?
skip Nicholson, Oklahoma City
LOL... good one. :-)
The Muslim that got on and said "Most" Christians would respond the same as the Extremist Muslims in Egypt, Libya and now Yemen is seriously out of touch. Jesus Christs asks us to turn the other cheek and most would. As for the moronic Minister...hate consumes him and well so will hell on his judgement day.
On the more serious note of extremists attacking, burning and murdering in our embassies...perhaps if this president grew a backbone and expell the ambassadors from Egypt, Yemen and Libya the Governments in these countries might do more to curtail the violence against our Embassies. Perhaps if Obama had not been instrumental in ousting the former governments of Egypt and Libya these assaults would have never happened. If Obama wishes to attack other countries he should do it in the light of day and not by supporting those with anti-American agendas.
Christian extremists? Did the Christians kill anybody when making the movie? So what if they were Christian extreminsts. How many embassies do the "Christian Extremists" attack. If the movie was provokative, then the Muslims should make one that is flattering to counter it.
I ended up watching the movie trailer because an innocent ambassador and workers lost their life over it. Aside from the bad acting and obvious bias, all of the stories that were portrayed are confirmed in the Koran and Hadith. Is the koran above reproach? Can a critique of the Koran and hadith take place? Yes! I answer. There are no special protections, and if the response is war, then so be it. I will not allow my values to be compromised.
If the movie is poorly made, and stilted with spin, then it will never reach full cultural exposure. But for the Muslims to kill non-participants in belligerent acts of terror, then they are fully confirming the criticisms leveled against them. Almost nobody in the west was even aware of this amateur work, but now it is exposed viewed and recorded for its historic relevance in enticing Muslims to kill unbelievers in real life.
What crime did they commit? I don't think they're terribly wonderful people, but WHAT CRIME did they commit? You know what message it would send to the crazy Muslims if the producer were charged in any way? They'll think, "If we flip out and kill people, the US will bend to our will in every way." These Middle Easterners are the lowest of the low, not even worthy of the crap life they have.
I'm sure if you surfed around on the Internet you could find something that offended you. It's like they have a Secretary of Looking for Offense who just looks for stuff to give his people to be violent.
And he's not defending the film producer. He's saying that it's ridiculous to even appear to apologize for some stupid movie nobody even knew anything about when they just attacked your embassies!
So we have to hunt down the people that did the killings and punish them?? Is that what the "sand monkeys" did? No, that just took it out on innocent Americans. I say drop a bomb on any populated area in Libya because of what they did. "F" them up.
I say we fly these people to Rome, both the radical Muslims and the radical Christians. They can entertain us with 100 days of games at the Coliseum. That way their violence will be contained in the proper venue, and innocent lives won't be lost.
This is clearly a religious right wing film aimed at raising tension in the middle east and our own country. I would not be suprised that the republican party is behind it as there would be no no need for a cover up in who actually made the film.
Now, with all the added turmoil in the middle east and the religious right painting Mitt as "the savior" - kind of makes one wonder if he's the anti-christ!
I also wonder "How many more people must die in the name of God?"
Remember when a bigoted Christian pastor wanted to do a public Koran burning? Even the US government got involved trying to persuade the guy not to do it. And remember how this guy and his screwed up sect of Christian fundamentalists was treated by the media? And justifiably so. Such acts of religious hatred are hardly protected free speech and such religious bigotry has to be condemned. The same should apply to whoever made this movie which is clearly hateful and offensive to Muslims. Initially there was a lot of information about the Israeli Jewish activist behind that movie. Now all of a sudden the media are trying to pin that provocation on Christian extremists.
Islamic fundamentalists are easily predictable - they are like a two ton bull charging at the red cape waved by the matador. You want to blame the bull, I want to blame the matador for provoking the bull to attack. Israel and his lackeys are the matadors and naive Americans only see the charging bull. Stupid is what stupid does.
You completely ignore reality there lvingbarefoot - and you let your own anti-muslim hatred fly pretty clearly. You don't seem to care that the morons who made this 'movie' basically walked up to a can of gas and lit the rag that was already stuck in it - basically walked into a crowded movie theater and screamed FIRE while blowing smoke into the room....
Yes, folks over there can riot pretty easily. They can be violent. While that is 100% wrong, it is also wrong it intentionally inflame them by giving them a reason to do it. It is also equally wrong to blame all Muslims for the actions of a minority of them.
Just like if we branded ALL Christians as hateful extremists because of the actions of the hatefilled extremist idiots who made this 'movie'. (I bet you'd be screaming 'how dare you blame all Christians') We all know not all Christians are like these hate filled extremist idiots - and by that same reality, not all Muslims are like the extremists who got the crowd fired up and got them to attack the embassy.
Oh - and by the way, the word now is that terrorists used this to attack our embassy. so it's not even 'just Muslims'. it's our real enemy, the terrorists.
Religious extremism, be it Jewish, Muslim, Christian or any other religion is the truest measure of man's most dangerous and obvious form of absolute Godlessness. It is the inherent desire to mimic faith because these extreme individuals do not posess faith - they lack a foundational soul, therefore they imitate what they see; what they desire so much to own but cannot. They pray harder, cry harder, raise their hands to the sky harder, close their eyes harder; all in an effort to convince us that they "know" God. They can't see, therefore they try even harder not to appear blind.
For similar reasons, no dwarf will ever win an Olympic event in running, no giant on horseback, the Kentucky Derby. Somehow we've come to believe that everyone shares the same abilities to believe in a greater and eternal existence. But what is truly evident is the opposite: some people possess no concept of a creative force, which is why the only type of creative outlet for these people is tearing down and destroying. The majority of humans, regardless of geographical location, see God as the Creator, not as God the destroyer.
It is the same disease that afflicts extreme Islam, extreme Christianity, extreme Judaism etc. Extremism is the complete and utter disconnect of a human being from creative force. And considering that God is fairly universally referred to as "The Creator", possession of creativity is, by default, a requirement of faith.
Absence of creativity is absence of faith, regardless of one's geology or geneology.
saxon,
"it will be easy to ID, the person or persons behind this stupid production; the bigger problem is dealing with Muslim radicals, that blame America for allowing people to speak their views, no matter how dumb those views are."
Yes, good old freedom of speech! Isn't it wonderful? Unfortunately, exercising that freedom of speech irresponsibly can get people killed, as it did in this case. Maybe Americans need a reminder that with every right there is an obligation: the obligation to use that right responsibly. You have the right to free speech, but you do not have the right to exercise it by yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. So this film maker, whoever he was, was exercising his right to free speech in a juvenile and irresponsible manner. You don't mock what is most sacred to others without expecting repercussions.
Please wake up America. It doesn't matter if we deal with extreme Christians, extreme Jews, extreme Muslims, extreme Wickens! An extreme of any religion is dangerous and spawns hate. If you cannot follow the Golden Rule you do not practice what your preach. You have become the evil doer you are trying to subdue and you will reside in hell with them.
Mr. Christopher Stevens I shed a tear for you today you did not deserve to die this way you were an exemplary example of the kindness of the American people and also a committed and loyal friend to the people of Libya.
My condolences also to the three other men who died with you.
hypocrites like you are a dime a dozen.
LOL....there's enough of you and Romney's kind already doing that. Do you mean if we had a republican President, we'd "nuke-em!!!" LOL
There are no "innocent Americans" soldiers, or embassy personnel.
No, I really think they just want us out of their affairs, and there countries, but we can't go, we need to RULE them for their oil. That is the only reason Israel want's YOU to attack Iran. Israel along has enough nuclear weapons to destroy Iran 1,000 times and have nuclear weapons left, so why do they need America's help?
This is a great time to continue the anti-Iran cry, maybe you'll think Israel will convince America to attack them. It won't, President Obama knows what Netanyahu is all about.
What would shed a lot of light on this is when someone finally leaks the 100 donors who made this movie possible. Can't wait to see that list!!
OBAMA/BIDEN....2012!!!!
They've already denounced the actions of all parties involved,they want other Muslims to ignore it:
"We urge that this ignorant attempt to provoke the religious feelings of Muslims in the Arabic-speaking world be ignored and that its extremist producers not be given the cheap publicity they so desperately seek. Those who created this trashy film do not represent the people of America or the Christian faith. The only proper response to intentional provocations such as this film is to redouble efforts to promote mutual understanding between faiths and to marginalize extremists of all stripes.”
I agree with them 100%. It was a trashy attempt at cheap publicity, no doubt conjured by a very juvenile mind. the best thing we can do is just ignore it and go on with our lives.
Hate crime Skip ? Have you fallen into the blame game ? How about the Muslims stop being cowards and take the full responibility for thier actions, and our shameful newscasters stop putting americans in danger by printing names first and last and the states they are from. It is time for this president of ours to stand with our country and stand against these murderers and take action sending a message proclaiming enough is enough. Mr president stand up or let someone else's stand up for us and get the hell out of the way, you know very well all this was part of a september 11, plot, I challenge you and all of americia challenges you to look into all those news cameras and proclaim the truth by calling it what it is A Terrorist Attack.
Oh yes, please. Let's go ahead and pretend like Christians are a bunch of peace loving people who never did ANYTHING to stir up trouble.
Do yourself a favor.....look up and read about "Just War Theory" and "Holy War" and you will find that they are something created by and carried out by Christians over hundreds of years. Often times, the people they waged these wars against and the land they conquered were Muslims. Spanish Inquisition, Holy Crusades, Catholics of all nationality killing non-converts when they came to North and South America, making non-converts in Africa slaves. Even recently you had the IRA in Ireland, that nut bag in Norway last year, the KKK in the US, NLFT in India, the LRA in Uganda. The 14 shamans (you know non-violent "spiritual healers") murdered in Peru in 2011 by Evangelical Christians because they were trying to start a school.
See, when any other religion has violent fanatics Christians get all holier than thou, but when it comes to the violent extremist Christians they all of a sudden become ignorant to it. Nice, real nice.
The only way there will ever be peace and security in this world is if there was NO religion.
Although we have freedom of speech, one cannot yell fire in a crowded theatre if there is no fire.
This was done to provoke. It is no different than anyone burning a Bible or an American Flag.
Christian extremists, Jewish extremists and Muslim extremists should all be exiled to the Middle East.
Make it an international treaty.
Wall it off and give them as many knives as they want.
AMAZING! People like "Skip" (Msg. 1.19) want to prosecute an American citizen for exercising his free speech rights, because somebody overseas took umbrage at what was said?
So, should we apologize to the Germans for making fun of Hitler in "The Little Dictator"? Clearly, Charlie Chaplin, who was Jewish, intended to offend the German leader and the German people. Can we really blame Hitler for declaring war on us, following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor? I mean, really, some American, clearly following his own political agenda, obviously inspired, at least in part, by his religious affiliations, deliberately - yes, deliberately, insulted a sacred figure in Germany. As a result, hundreds of thousands of Americans died fighting the Nazis. All because of a movie! I say we exhume Charlie Chaplin and abuse his corpse for causing WWII, or, at the least, our involvement in the European part of it.
Or maybe, just maybe, we have the right to say and think what we want and a duty to defend that right against all who would silence us, be they Nazis or Islamists. I'd like to think that is the correct answer. It shocks me that so many on here apparently disagree and would censor Americans for the sake of the sensibilities of overseas fanatics.
So, how does a $5,ooo,ooo anti-Islam movie, which was funded by 100+ Jewish people and was filmed by Sam Bacile, who is a self identified Israeli Jew, end up being a movie supposedly linked to christian extremists? Just another attempt to keep the people divided. So, our pockets can be picked clean, once again, to fund another needless war, that doesn't involve us.
It will never happen. They don't exist; these two people and everybody involved are likely intelligence operatives and have so many identities you will NEVER find out who they were. They've probably stolen a bunch of passports and will use one to get out of the country before anyone can lay a hand on them. This was definitely a propaganda campaign to influence events.
Nowhere in this statement does it condemn the attacks on American diplomats assigned to the embassy on a mission of peace. All it does is condemn the film makers. And if this is the film makers fault, (which it isn't) then this gives Americans an excuse to storm a country's embassy when we see disturbing video of a flag being burned or a President hung in effigy.
No video, no matter how inflammatory, gives anyone the right to invade American soil and kill innocent Americans.
Religion is a brainwashing tool used to control the weak.
The movie has been out since July. Sorry, no idea about who REALLY made it and it is nothing but an excuse and a deflection from the real agenda here. This has been planned, orchestrated and always, who benefits? If you want to create an Arab/Muslim anti-west uprising what better way to do so? Radical Islam is the group that will benefit from this, this is the end game objective and all you folks nattering away about political parties, religious bias, etc. don't have a clue. This is about stirring revolt and weakening the defenses of the US. Hard to put out several fires at once, isn't it?
Obama ignores Israel and embraces the Muslim Brotherhood. Interesting move and you do indeed have to wonder at his agenda. If he is so naive that he trusts the MB then watch out. If, on the other hand, his goal is to create a Caliphate and toss Israel under the bus, he is succeeding. All the Muslims hate Israel and Jews, they have been taught that since birth and second on their hate list is the USA. Obama should understand this and instead of building defenses against a group that wants to destroy us, he embraces them. Anyone who believes that lying and prevarication are not a part of the Islamic Globalization goals that are written and mandated in the Koran need to educate themselves.
This is what you expect from NBC, an attack on our freedom of speech. They will align with the Muslims to repeal our Constitutional rights. All the Muslims have to do is riot , burn and kill because we demand equal treatment under law and they oppose it. Then our liberals will stand up and demand that Constitutional right be taken away.
If this film, that is used as an excuse for an attack on America on 911, were an attack on Christianity you would hear NBC news railing against the rioters not the makers of the film.
Fear the alignment of our liberal class with the Muslims to repeal our rights.
No, because Chaplin's mockery didn't include obscenity. It was meant to be, and was clearly taken as, funny.
Yes, we have the right to say and think what we want but we also have to accept the consequences of the exercise of free speech. And you're also forgetting something very very basic here; free speech doesn't cover obscenity, child porn, threats and anything that causes harm to others. From what I've read, this film sounds like it violates several of those.
jk777; AND ALL OTHERS; the filmmaker has been identified, he is a convicted con artist felon, who goes by many names; he says he is a Coptic christian, born in Israel; all the insults were dubbed in a studio at a later time, the bit actors, thought they were making a film about Semitic peoples of the middle east(also includes Jew's).
Oh my, such utter outrage on the part of NBC at someone's making an anti-Muslim film. I wonder where this same outrage was when Mapelthorpe exhibited his famous photo of a crucifix immersed in a glass of urine. F**king lib hypocrites!
Like learning that these attacks were caused by the illegal drone attacks authorized by The President because he wanted to back a radical Muslim, anti-American hate group. Drone attacks that killed civilians as well as those brave terrorists that make sure to hit an ungaurded embassy. Which brings up another question. Who authorized an embassy in country that just went through a rebellion that we helped succeed, the removal of U.S. Marines from protecting this American soil in a hostile country?
What's your point? Since the language barrier was broken that gives them an excuse to murder an American diplomat on a mission of peace?
We need to hold our horses but you can post an unproven and inflammatory statement about Romney?
You want the FBI to hunt down, then intimidate someone into giving up information when no laws were broken? Do you also advocate that they go after members of the Black Panthers or La Raza for their hate filled speech as well? Or is it only reserved for those you may not agree with? The video did not kill anyone, it was a group of anti-American muslims, how about we hunt them down first. It's not as if we don't have their pictures, they were there for the whole world to see as they celebrated the burning of an American embassy while the ambassador was slowly suffocating inside. No video, no matter how inflammatory, is an excuse for murder.
Wrong artist. If you're going to get your anti-artist christian back up, at least get your facts straight. Bonus points if you can tell everyone who the real artist was...
fhb: If you had read my post you would understand that I stated that the 'movie' wasn't the cause or the real issue here. Anti-Americanism-Anti-Israel is the rationale and any excuse would do. Interesting timing on all of this was my other point. The movie has been out for months and only NOW does it make the rounds? Please. Then you have the Muslim Brotherhood meeting with Akmadinijahd (spelling be damned) and the rumors of an October 'surprise' with this being the preliminary salvos. Guess what is next on the agenda?
Max 108: "stupid is as stupid does." Yeah Max, and you're the one holding ther box of chocolates.
Egypt is not an ally but is not our enemy, said Obama , but we are giving billios of dollars in aid supporting the Muslim Brotherhood.
All this Christian thing is just theater from NBC to descredit the majority of Christians, they allways come up with this kind of thing when the left is on trouble. This is part of the damage control for Obama.
Where is Obama when our embassis in Meddle East are bein treated, he is in Las Vegas in a fundraising event. He is and was in campaign mode for the last 6 years.
We need a real Commander in Chief , we need a leader.
However all the protest in middle east is not just about the movie , the movie is just an excuse from the Arab Wold to demonstrate in 9/11 their hostility toward us. The producer of the movie are right to portrait Islam like a violent religion of intolerance and hate , that believe Islam is the only true Religion and the rest of us are the infidels, for that reason they must to take over the world and establish a worldwide Caliph at. They are doing it using legal channels and banned channels. Legally emigrating to the Western Europe, America , Africa highly populating our territory with at least 3 children's per family, using all legal channels to demand religious rights and special accommodation, imposing Sharia Law and by the other hand terrorizing , killing creating destabilization and fear to anyone that dare offend , or attack them.
But the wort if all is that the left is helping them with this kind of narrative. So going back to my first sentence, they are our enemies.
I don't know what can we do about that , but this danger is very close in European countries , like France where by 2050 at the same rate of birth, Muslims will surpass , the French white population, they will lose their values, history, replaced little by little by Islamic institutions.
It will happend here too if we don't wake up. otherwise it will be too late.
andres serrano
If Obama is elected again, he will initiate hate speech against muslimsmost likely as an executive order. He will use this incident as an example on why it is needed. Most likely the UN will be involved with it as well. Go to England or France and you will see what America will be like if this happens. sharia law will be next
Christians protested museums when they show the "piss Jesus" and other so called art that shows the virgin Mary in questionable positions and this so called art is protected and paid for by us tax payers. You don't see us burning property and killing people over it.
Of course hateful speech and crimes will still be allowed against Jews and Christians.
I had my car keyed and my McCain sticker ripped off my car during the last election. The tolerant left feels they have the right to destroy my private property because I disagree with them. The incident was caught on the stores camera and when caught, he said my sticker offended him and he had the right to remove it and he keyed my car to teach me a lesson.
Here's more from the Muslim community:
"This film really is cheap. It's low quality, low rate, and it really should've been ignored," said Dawud Walid with the Council on American Islamic Relations. "It's just a shame that in Libya that there's a small group of violent people who have escalated a situation. We don't like the contents of the film at all, but the last prophet of Islam, Muhammad, taught us that we're supposed to repel evil with righteousness and good behavior," he continued. "Prophet Muhammad would not sanction the wanton violence or the death of any innocent people."
Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh (Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama):
"Hijacking Planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that can not be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts."
Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan:
"It is wrong to kill innocent people. It is also wrong to Praise those who kill innocent people."
Abdullah II, King of Jordan and descendent of the Prophet Muhammad:
"What these people stand for is completely against all the principles that Arab Muslims believe in."
From CAIR Canada, a Canadian Muslim group;
"Islam respects the sacredness of life, and rejects any express statement or tacit insinuation that Muslims should harm innocent people. Despite our disagreement with certain American policies, we must never abuse the concept of Jihad to target innocent civilians."
"Jihad, which literally means 'struggle,' has an internal, societal and combative dimension. The internal dimension of Jihad encompasses the struggle against the evil inclinations of the self, and the spiritual project to adorn the self with virtues such as justice, mercy, generosity and gentleness. The societal dimension includes struggling against social injustice and creating a communal identity based on charity, respect and equality. Finally, the combative aspect of jihad is only to be used as self-defense against aggression or to fight oppression, and, even then, to be observed with strict limits of conduct that preserves the life of innocents and the sanctity of the environment. Moreover, this latter type of Jihad can only be declared by a legitimate, recognized religious authority."
"Using the concept of Jihad to justify harming the innocent is contrary to the letter and spirit of Islam. We condemn any violence that springs from this misguided interpretation."
From Muqtedar Kahn, Asst Professor of Political Science, Adrian College:
"Militias like the Taliban have allowed their hate for the West to override their obligation to pursue the welfare of their people."
"The culture of hate and killing is tearing away at the moral fabric of the Muslim society. We are more focused on 'the other' and have completely forgotten our duty to Allah."
"Islam is not about defeating Jews or conquering Jerusalem. It is about mercy, about virtue, about sacrifice and about duty. Above all it is the pursuit of moral perfection. Nothing can be further away from moral perfection than the wanton slaughter innocent people."
Imam Kutty from Jami Mosque:
"Let us make no mistake about it: Today, Muslims have no enemy greater than fanatics in their midst...Let us know that fanaticism is ignorance; it is nothing but sickness and bigotry; let us know that fanaticism is opposed to both scripture and reason...We Muslims therefore condemn these barbaric attacks against innocent people."
"We condemn them unconditionally; we condemn them because it is opposed to reason and revelation. It is contrary to the fundamental principles of Islam which teach the sanctity of life. Make no mistake about it, we Muslims cannot be Muslims unless we affirm the sanctity of life in all forms."
"Let every Muslim know that there is no room in Islam for fanaticism, for hatred, for racism, for terrorizing innocent people, for indiscriminate killing, even in a state of war."
"Let us Muslims shoulder our responsibility in this crisis facing our society by distancing ourselves from all those who have perpetrated such a heinous and dastardly crime. I appeal to every Muslim to cooperate with the authorities in bringing the culprits to justice. Let no Muslim harbor such criminals in their midst; doing so is violating the laws and values that we cherish dearly in our religion.
And here's reaction from the rest of the world:
Western leaders expressed unanimous shock at killings that France's President Francois Hollande called an "odious crime".
German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said: "Nothing can justify violence". Italy's Prime Minister Mario Monti praised the Libyan government for speaking out against the violence.
Russia's Foreign Ministry said: "We decisively condemn all attacks on foreign diplomatic representations and their employees as manifestations of terrorism that can have no justification."
At the United Nations, Under-secretary General for Political Affairs Jeffrey Feltman told the Security Council at a briefing: "The United Nations rejects defamation of religion in all forms, but there is no justification for violence such as occurred in Benghazi."
Libyan Deputy Prime Minister Mustafa Abu Shagour joined the condemnation of the killings. "I do condemn the cowardly act of attacking the U.S. consulate and the killing of Mr. Stevens and the other diplomats," he said in a message on Twitter.
"What happened at the U.S. embassy in Cairo is regrettable and rejected by all Egyptian people and cannot be justified, especially if we consider that the people who produced this low film have no relation to the (U.S.) government," Prime Minister Hisham Kandil said, reading out a statement.
"We ask the American government to take a firm position toward this film's producers within the framework of international charters that criminalize acts that stir strife on the basis of race, color or religion."
Even the Vatican has weighed in on it:
The Vatican in Rome said the violence showed the need to respect religions and avoid insulting believers.
"The serious consequences of unjustified offence and provocations against the sensibilities of Muslim believers are once again evident in these days," the Vatican's chief spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi said in a statement.
Lombardi said respect for the beliefs, texts, outstanding figures and symbols of religions was "an essential precondition for the peaceful coexistence of peoples."
Just who should we bomb? I know that the Repubs are anxious for us to bomb someone.
Ricks Real: Brilliant post. I agree. My only exception is the comparison with Christian and Jewish extremism, given the sheer number of extremist Muslims (a large minority) who are committed to violence as a means of advancing their agenda.
I wonder how these Christians feel, knowing that their actions started a chain of events that led to the death of other Americans.
Or, more precisely, if they had not released this video, those people would still be alive. If they made the decision to not express their hatred, people would still be alive.
I wonder if they think back to the day the decided to make the video, the moment they said "yes, let's do this"... and a simple change of mind, in that situation, would have saved a life. The family of these Americans, suffering from their loss, the pain, the scars they will forever feel... all of it could have been avoided, with just a simple change of mind.
I bet Jesus is proud of his Christians.
Maybe Anonymous can do something productive for once and release the names of the people that made this movie. I am sure that list is probably something the world would be very interested in. I wonder how brave those donors will be when their names are out there for all to see.
Such a tremendous effort to quell reasonable free speech and open exchange of ideas by collapsing posts. Is this what it must be like in those foreign countries controlled by Zealots and Mullahs?
So will the offending liberal PC police please sign in or are you just too afraid to be outed in an open forum? It seems you do not like to hear that our President is inept at foreign policy and totally spineless when it comes to defending our nation. In fact he has been one of the driving forces to create political voids in many regimes in the ME opening the door to Queda groups in Egypt, Libya, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq.
From the way this story is 'evolving' even here, we see a desperate effort of the media to pin this video on anybody but a Jewish interest group. In fact, this film is a true representation of what the majority of Israelis think and say about Islam. And I'm sure there were some 'dancing Israelis' watching news of anti-American violence in Libya, just like they were dancing watching 9/11 unfold. The more US has to do their dirty work in the region, the more happy they are.
WOW!!!! Do we ever have some extremists in all directions. This whole thing is the result of RELIGION. Wouldn't it be nice if people would just listen to the words of John Lennon's enlightening song "Imagine". Just imagine there's no heaven and no religion too ... nothing to kill and die for. I think John was a little ahead of his time. We still have politicians in this country who insist in mentioning god in political platforms to patronize their more radical supporters.
Wow NBC, way to propagate hate. Blame this on Christians, seriously? A crude and provocative anti-Islam video is being blamed for the violence? By who, the murderous b!tches that are responsible for this BS? How about you blame the violence on the mother f*ckers who got their feelings hurt over a stupid F*cking movie and decided to murder people for it you dumb sh!ts. If someone blows up an abortion clinic you don't issue an article blaming the bombing on the mass murder of millions of babies; you rightfuly blame the idiot who did it... or you blame Christians... I guess it is kind of similar. You know, I try to combat most of the hateful, biased nonsense that comes out of the media with humor but this article pisses me off. The morons equating the production of this film with mass violence, suicide bombing, beheadings, burnings, stormings, murders, etc... need to really think about their own bigotry. There are extremists who claim the Christian faith. For instance, the Westboro Baptist crowd disgusts me but how many people have they decapitated? When was the last time they suicide-bombed a location? How many people have they kidnapped and tortured? At most, our Christian extremists are annoying and obnoxious. Stop trying to equate the two extremes, it makes you all look like idiots. I am so tired of the media and it's blatant bias and I'm not even Christianor Jewish; idiots.
Thank you, Basil. However I stand by my statement of post #1.32 above; Christianity and Judaism get no pass whatsoever. Extremism exists in all aspects of humanity, religious and non-religious alike. It's not about the number of extremists in any particular group but rather the underlying mental disconnect shared between each of those individuals. The difference with the non-religious is that they don't use God as an excuse to commit crimes and spread hate and intolerance.
Outstanding comments from all those who've made the point that we MUST be intolerant of intolerance...and yes, that applies to ALL FORMS of religious zealots, Muslim, Christian...you name it.
Unfortunately it's one of the most vulnerable points of a society built on tolerance as ours is that those with an agenda of intolerance will misuse our open structure against the rest of us. In the course of these events I've become aware of an essay that speaks to the issues at hand very well;
http://www.npr.org/books/titles/138333564/american-fascists-the-christian-right-and-the-war-on-america?tab=excerpt#excerpt
And yes, the words above are aimed at the American Christian Right. This Christian refuses to apologize for two reasons;
1) The current uproar has obviously been fanned by radical Christians in this country.
2) Religiously-based intolerance is similar throughout the world. The small minority of radical Muslims is really not that much difference than the small minority of radical Christians.
So as the truth unfolds it appears that the movie producer embezzled once again from extreme christians and put together a movie a fifth grader could produce with $100. We don't know if he is a citizen or not. Or who he truly is but the guy answering the door has embezzled before. Serves these extreme "christian" haters right if they wasted their money. Even better is their belief in a hell that they will surely cook in because they created the smoke screen for terrorists mixing umong protesters and murdering 14 yesterday. Lucifer is waiting for you.
Back when Al Queda was having a rough go of it they sponsored and planned the attacks that led to the violence on the Danish cartoon thing and muslims responded by joining their little cliche. Right now America has stepped way ahead of them and has been killing their leaders one after another. All of a sudden some clowns out of nowhere produce an anti muslim film and start the Al Queda process all over again. cant you people see that? This was planned. Not by the governments of those country's but by the people who want those governments replaced by their people. Added to that they take a shot at Obama and maybe get him replaced because they know Mitt is as weak as a kitten. Obama on the other hand has been quietly kicking them in the rear every since he took office. A win win win situation for the devils in Al Queda who we knew would at lest attempt to strike back. They are not dead wounded real bad but not dead.
Btw it would help any religion to be better understood if they could prove their beliefs were true. Otherwise you have no right to rise up against anyone who ridicules what is only fantasy and thats just not for Muslims but all religions and I do not know one that can prove their GOD exists!
Don't fool yourself. Just because Western society has advanced more socially it doesn't mean that our committed extremists have never outnumbered that of the Muslims. The present social standard doesn't not negate the sins of our Christian past. You can thank your ancestors for setting the precedent of violence in the name of God.
You also have to consider that the Arab world has never tried to forcibly embed an entire population into regions of our country. Let's say that the UN voted to create a large Native American state right smack in the middle of where you lived. You and your family are displaced as well as hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of others. Are you telling me that there would be no push back, no revolt, no defiance from the American people living there? Now imagine that escalating over a period of 70 years and try to tell me that there would not be a birth of a generation of extremely violent White Christians who vilify the evil heathens that are taking their land. And what if the Arab countries were providing the Native Americans with arms and money to deal with us?
That is what all of the people who rationalize this anti-Islam movement fail to understand..... HISTORY!
They are too uneducated to see past their own noses, never mind crack a book and research how this situation escalated and how the US were willing participants in the cluster-f*%# that is the middle east.
I don't condone the murder of innocent people, but you can't honestly say that you would so easily reject hatred and violence if you were to become one of those that has nothing left to lose. Just look at how fast isolated incidents of violence against Muslims in this country have spread since 9/11. One more attack by Al-Qaeda and you think people will be above all the violence? That is just naive...
I really do hope you realize that this melo-dramatic theory is completely ridiculous and you out yourself as a deluded psychopath to think that 1st amendment rights will ever be repealed. In case you didn't know, I felt you should...
Blood thirsty third world countries looking for any excuse to attack Americans. I'm tired of watching and listening to their woes. We helped rid Libya of their tyrant dictator. We help Iraq eliminate theirs, too. And this is the thanks we get? Nuke 'em and quit sticking our citizens/soldiers in unwelcoming countries. I do not care about any of them and consider none of them as innocent.
Shhhhhh, can you all hear that?
Hear it?
No?
OK, I thought I heard Barrack hussein pretending to be a leader.
I guess the glitz and glamour of Las Vegas is more important than governance at a time like this.
Can you imagine the outrage and violence of the Liberal bobbleheads if Bush just went merrily campaigning as our embassies and consulates were being attacked. As our Ambassadors and staff were murdered?
The hypocrisy is incredible.
ROMNEY/RYAN 2012 for real Americans
Love seeing some "defenders" of the First Amendment, so-called "Freedom of Speech." If some of you had a clearer understanding of not just the words, but the intent, and therefore the responsibility, of this constitutional right, perhaps you'd also stop ignoring the rest of the language in the amendment. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. There is also mention (FIRST, I might point out) of Freedom of Religion, one of the foundations of this country. Or did you forget that one of the reasons this country was founded was upon the escape from religious persecution. But then, I guess it's only "Freedom of Religion, as long as it's MY religion."
Tea Party is the American Taliban. Extremist, Fundamentalist scum with no respect for our forefathers or the constitution. Anyone who believes the bible should trump our constitution has no place in Congress.
They are not REAL Republicans
Amanda-2017567
If I could like your post multiple times I would. Thank you for providing some actual evidence to your opinions vs. simply regurgitating what you hear on Fox News.
Post 1.59
Yes, let's all watch as the media demonizes a fellow for exercising his first amendment rights. You can disagree with the contents of the video all you want, but that's what is happening to this fellow now. Watch in amazement as past crimes, already paid for, are trotted out as if he's on trial for them all over again. . .
It would have been nice if the blame had been placed squarely where it belongs by our media, on the backs of those who actually perpetrated it. . .instead of on a guy exercising a right we should all be defending.
The best thing we could do to all of these groups is to strip them of their religious identity. Reverend Terry Jones should not be identified as a Christian leader any more than the zealots in the Middle-East should be associated with the religions they claim as their justification in committing violent acts. The only thing these people create is chaos - and it seems to me that calling yourself a Christian or a Muslim or a Jew comes with the responsibility of actually representing the ideals of Mohammad or Jesus or Moses or whomever is the basis for the religion. If you are an extremist, it becomes far too obvious how you have manifested life for yourself in the world today: Reject evolution and you stop evolving. Reject compassion and you become uncaring. Reject cooperation and compromise and you become belligerent. Reject God of another faith and you reject God in all things.
Because if God truly exists, then it is logical to assume that there is only one God; and what you believe God is or is not is completely irrelevant, what you call God is irrelevant, and killing others who don't share your thoughts is just asinine.
Someone recently blogged,
This is not true!! Nakoula, a militant Christian activists is definitely not a TRUE CHRISTIAN. But he is an extremely evil person, who uses religion in name only as an excuse to promote his agenda and advancement of extremely evil hatred for whatever personal reasons. Instead of a religious Christian, his actions are nothing more than a cult behavior with the destruction and killing of other innocent, good people (which does not include Bin Ladin). A true Christian (regardless of the religious denomination anywhere in the world) strives to lead a good life, and helps others whenever possible, etc. Evil hatred involving killing is not good, and definitely not true Christian behavior. It appears as if Nakoula's sole purpose for this cult film was to incite a riot. Therefore, he should be jailed immediately for violation of his probation (financial fraud and 2 previous jail sentences). Also, if he is not a U.S. Citizen and is not in jail, then he should be deported back to where he came from. However, perhaps Hell is a more appropriate place for someone like him with all his hatred. Nakula, not only used religion as a facade; but also used innocent people here and abroad by enticing them into participation of deceptive violence simply because they did not have all the facts to make a rational decision.
There is more to this than what we've been told. Follow the money paper trail back to its home! There lies some possible answers to the "what and why" for these recent actions. Did Nakoula get paid to do this, or did he act solely on his own? Who paid him? Who is really behind this (politics or individuals)? What was the real reason for stirring up such violent behavior? Why was the man with such a "rap sheet" to include Financial Fraud allowed to be out on probation, or is this more of the special judicial treatment for Wall Street illegal behavior?
Although you might have a hard time making hate crime charges stick against the makers and promoters of this film, I thing there is a potentially strong case using much older laws that hate crime law. What I am talking about is one of the few "exceptions" to free speech. What I am talking about is sedition.
Doesn't matter if the material is true, false or otherwise, when some form of speech is used, to deliberately attempt to create unrest and damage to the government it can be classed as sedition. Sedition can be closely tied to treason, but it can be totally separate too. I'm not so sure that the seditious act necessarily needs to create the unrest within our borders, but seditious acts could lead to riots attacking US Government facilities like military bases, embassies, consulates, etc. which are actually US "territority" and official arms of the US governement. The fact that US government employees were killed related to these actions makes very strong evidence. There should be little doubt that this movie and its translation to Arabic was solely intended to incite unrest.
Sedition laws are not often used, and often the free speech claims will tend to trump a claim of sedition, but the real evidence of the results can have a big impact on the interpretation. If someone tries to create unrest but is unsuccessful, proving the intent with no real results makes the free speech argument reasonable. However if the result is unrest, physical injury or death, property damage etc., there is more validity to the charge. The line being crossed is somewhat similar to the free speech exception to yelling fire in a crowded theater.
I believe what we are seeing is a growing movement to launch a war on Islam. There are a lot of people who believe this is what we should do and many see religious prophecy as directing us to do it. Now it is unlikely that a full scale war launched against Islam would occur started as a pre-emptive war by the US, but that is not to say that a defensive war of the same nature could be completely possible. Inciting the Muslim world and taking actions designed to anger and goad them into violence against the US government, with the bigger goal of steering government policy and triggering the type of global war they seek, has to be considered seditious in nature.
The irony about a lot of this is how Obama has specifically backed away from calling our actions something other than a war on Muslim extremist terrorism. This upset the right as well as it upset Osama Bin Laden because there are those on both sides who see a clash of civilizations as the inevitable outcome. Even GW Bush had an understanding that such a war was probably in our future at some point based on biblical prophecy and felt that we needed to prepare for it and ultimately be the aggressor if we expected to win it. Not so long ago, this was an obscure concept held by a relative lunatic fringe, but it is fact gaining momentum. This kind of propaganda and the results it causes just makes the idea pick up steam on both sides. I heard a strange statistic today that the number of people who see Obama as a secret Muslim, is actually growing! This is totally bizarre, but because the President completely rejects the idea of a second crusade or even the concept of a war on Islam, those who see it as inevitable view him as giving away the advantage of being the aggressor in such a conflict. Why would he do this when "we all know it will happen sooner or later"? The only "logical" answer is he must be one of them.
Muslims in the Middle East take themselves far too seriously at times. Ironically, I was watching Monty Python,s "The Life of Brian" the other night and laughing my head off! I honestly don't seem to recall Jews or Christians throwing the hissy fits like what is happening today. Well, maybe the Catholic Church did for a short while. I sure do not remember any fatwas or their equivalent being issued against Monty Python at the time.
Christians have been mocked for years in Hollywood. In another thread I mentioned Elton John's statement about Jesus Christ. Christians did not get upset at what Elton said. There was disappointment at what he said but you just move on.
The Federal Government had no right in releasing this man's identity. This man was exercising his freedom of speech. His opinion was wrong but everyone has a right to voice his opinion.
The fact of the matter is that whether any of us like or agree with this movie the right to make and release it is covered by our right to free speech (a right Americans have fought and died for). We should not have to apologize for this. It is unacceptable for these muslims to use this movie or anything else as an excuse to attack our American citizens. It is TERRORISM! Why does the USA continue to give aid to these people when they are against us (even going so far as to kill us)? We have American citizens in the USA that are homeless, starving, and can't get the medical care they need, but we are giving these very things that our own people don't have to people in other countries that have no appreciation for what we have done and continue to do for them! Enough is enough! We should remove all our people from their countries, remove their people from our country, and cut off ALL aid we send to them. Let them know that the USA WILL NOT TOLERATE THESE TERRORIST ACTS!
The attack was planned. One of the muslim fighters said it was retaliation for killing their guys. It was not about the movie. Obama's last intelligence briefing was on Sept. 5.
A lot of people attacking one another online here. We've all got a lot more in common-shared values, beliefs, and desires to live in peace than we have to fight about.
Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheist, Bhuddist--all these people want opportunities to live out their lives in peace. They really do! Rather than assigning sinister motives to each other, let's take a step back and promote some dialogue and understanding.
Those who committed crimes over the past several days will come to justice on way or another, the rest of us shouldn't be playing into the firestorm of accusations, counter-accusations, and bitterness they sought to stir up.
Religions have historically persecuted one another throughout time. There is nothing different about this.
Again I ask....why in the hell is America being blamed for this stupid movie when it wasn't an American who made it???
Why are Americans blamed for Christian extremist propaganda originating in the US?
A: The same reason some Americans blame all of Libya for the attacks of Muslim extremists - religious intolerance inherent in most of the religions around the world combined with myopic patriotism and elevated egocentric histrionics... lots of ways to describe it.
and round and round we go,how many will die? nobody knows.
It is unfortunate that we cant isolate religious extremists of all persuasions in a single area and let them kill each other off.
And stupid lyin' Ryan/Romney support these christian extremists!! Look forward to more world-wide calamity if these jacka$$es are put into office!!
Rev, I was going to post the exact same thing. Perhaps we could start televising the "God Games".
Yeah, hagg, and bam-bam kisses their terrorist pig, a$$es. I know where I stand on that one.
Aren't MITT ROMNEY and his "little sidekick" PAUL RYAN,
"CHRISTIAN RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS"
Be Honest, aren't they?
So are Glenn Beck, Rush Limpaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann "the Man" Coulter, they're All
"Christian Religious Extremists", every one of those Racist Talk show Hosts, they all hate Barack Obama, only because he's a "Black Man" now living in their once sacred "White House".
Plus Karl Rove from the Bush and Dick Cheney Regime is Financing Mitt Romney's campaign.
Sick, sick, and sick.
Whether it was a "56-year-old Israeli American real estate developer from California who had made the movie by raising $5 million from wealthy Jewish donors", or a radical Christian that made that film, he should be hunted down and tried for involuntary manslaughter. They could easily find him through Jones.
And Jones? Why in hell is he still the pastor of a church? Who would go to a church led by him? They should have canned him long ago. Now four people are dead as a result of this BS. I am not excusing the radical (and hypocritical) Muslims attacking embassies, but this could all have been prevented with a little common respect for all religions.
Mr. Christopher Stevens I shed a tear for you today you did not deserve to die this way you were an exemplary example of the kindness of the American people and also a committed and loyal friend to the people of Libya.
My condolences also to the three other men who died with you.
It's only freedom of speech until you piss off a liberal...
And quit calling this "freedom of speech". There are limits on freedom of speech. For example, you cannot use your freedom of speech to yell, FIRE!, in a movie theater when there isn't a fire, and cause a mass exodus that possibly injures or kills people in the theater. Same case here.
People should know by now that this kind of crap will cause riots around the world and innocent people WILL get killed. They should be held accountable.
If the movie was intended to provoke violence among Muslims and the Violence caused the Death of a US ambassador then should not the people who created the movie be held responsible. The Hard part would be proving intent but I think it could be done there intent was to provoke a response and it did cause the death of a US Ambassador then the makers of the movie are as guilty of the Death as those who did it.
As a bible reading, daily prayer making, church going Christian, I am so freaking sick and tired of these nuts hijacking the religion. I know exactly how my Muslim friends feel. And I have to say, it won't be long before one of these nuts blows up a bomb somewhere. If I could go back in time and kick the men at the Council fo Carthage who chose to include the Book of Revelations in the butt, I would be thrilled to make the trip. Because here's the part that scares the bejeebers out of me. There are nuts in the Christian faith who WANT to bring on Armegeddon - just as there are in the Jewish and the Muslim faiths. And they all think that a holy war is the way to do do it.
What I would love for the media to do is to get some less crazy religious people on the news denouncing these nuts. Christian leaders need to be quoted as saying exactly why this type of behavior is unChristian. But the media has to be willing to have that discussion, instead the nuts make good entertainment and people like to watch them. It's kind of how nuts like Bachman and Palin get attention.
"Christian religious extremists"?
All that Terry guy wanted to do was burn a book. This Isreali made a movie.
Muslims burn Bibles, American flags, call for war on Isreal, and publicly kill Americans on American soil (yes, it is American soil). American "artists" depict Jesus with feces and other insults on Christians.
You liberals need to get a clue what an "extremists" is. BTW, you support the Muslims now because you don't like Christians, what are you going to do when Muslims force their religious views on you. You will convert or DIE. You will not speak out against Mohammed the way you talk about Jesus. You may dislike Christians for calling you out on your behavior, but they don't kill you.
It's amazing the thinking of liberals.
The families of the US ambassador and the others who were killed should sue the film-maker(s). This would deter any other ###### from doing stupid things. You don't have the right to shout "fire" in a crowded movie theater.
Here ya go: Per Wikipedia under "United States free speech exceptions":
"Exceptions to free speech in the United States are limitations on the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech and expression as recognized by the United States Supreme Court. These exceptions have been created over time, based on certain types of speech and expression, and under different contexts. While freedom of speech in the United States is a constitutional right, these exceptions make that right a limited one.
Restrictions that are based on people's reactions to words include both instances of a complete exception, and cases of diminished protection. Speech that involves incitement, false statements of fact, obscenity, child pornography, threats, and speech owned by others are all completely exempt from First Amendment protections. Commercial advertising receives diminished, but not eliminated, protection."
From CNN.com - Here come the apologies:
"Secretary of State Clinton says U.S. rejects anti-Islam video stirring outrage in Muslim world, calls it "reprehensible.""
Apparently freedom of speech is no longer allowed if muslims use it as an excuse to wage war.
Lets see.... a cheap, crappy video vs. murder and anarchy.... and who gets criticized? the film maker. America's slide from leader to apologetic pushover continues.
Wow by the discussion here someone might get the impression that Christians or Jews got to burning our embassies and killing American people....It is not the fault of the idiot who made the film or the moron who promoted the film for his little corner of intolerance or indecency. It has been proved that we do not have to agree with speech but that doesn't mean we can restrict it on some and not in all.
Muslims in Libya, Egypt and now Yemen have attacked our embassies....It is more reasonable to believe that these were Extremist Muslims who have been planning these actions to occur on and around 9/11. Are we to believe that there was absolutely no intelligence of these attacks? I don't believe that the assaults were too well organized and orchestrated. The response by Obama far too dismissive when Americans died in Libya and our embassies in Egypt and Yemen were attacked.
Send their Ambassadors home and immediately cease all foreign aid to these nations. That might just be an "Executive Order" that mainstream America could get behind. Recall our Ambassadors and embassy staff and replace them with some bad ass Marines and Navy seals. Point our Air Force in the direction of these rogue states and show the military might of the American Nation.
As for the American people....when Nov 6 rolls around remember it was Obama who waged a covert action that resulted in Egypt no longer being our Allie. It was Obama who chose to support rogue forces in Libya and it is Obama who is bowing to the Mullahs and Zealots in the Muslim world to apologize for our very existence. It is Obama who has limited and tied the hands of our brave men and women serving abroad. It is Obama who has used our military force to invade allied nations and to issue the death warrant of foreign leaders. It is Obama who will denigrate Christians while bowing from the waste to kiss the collective asses of those in the world who would have America fall.
Thirty years from now, we will all learn that this film was sponsored by Mitt and the extreme religious right solely for his election. This is no different than what good old Ronald Reagan did in the middle east against Jimmy Carter.
Concerned...you seem to be really reaching at your conclusion...I think perhaps 30 years from now Obamas testicles may actually drop. Until that happens he is useless as an America President.
One day they may invent Viagra for the brain...till then, you're out of luck. If you threaten elected government officials, the 1st Amendment won't help you. If you threaten the guy next door with violence, the 1st Amendment won't help you. If you cry "fire" in a movie theater, the 1st Amendment won't help you.
This RWNJ knew his movie would cause violence. More likely than not he knew it would cause violence against Americans. I believe this action should qualify with the above examples...AT LEAST!
ooooh - Are you from Texas? Glad you got your village idiot back. As to testicles, who got bin Laden...Obama or Bush?
Thank Media.... Some obscure, nutball pastor from Florida, with a teeny, tiny congregation is now a world-wide recongized name. Do you think that maybe that was what he wanted? For everyone to be listening to what he has to say. How about, at least, putting on some sane religious folk to counterpoint this nut.
Does anyone else find it highly offensive that when Steve Klein, the proposed developer of this film, chuckled and admitted he was responsible when asked his reaction to the attack on our embassies. What a terrible human being. Notice he is not on the front lines, coward.
Ol Doc...yep, I'm from Texas and from this vantage point...many ignorant Americans and probably a good share of dead people exercised their right to elect a nobody as president and well nobody seems to be running America and nobody seems to be protecting and defending the Constitution of the United States of America or her people or her property or her interest. Nobody is in charge and it shows.
I am sorry, I am not going to make excuses for murderers, I really doubt that many of the offended actually saw this crazy film. Do we make excuses for people who commit these crimes in the USA? Oh I forgot we don't have many cases of mobs overrunning foreign embassy's and murdering diplomats, sorry.
For all you apologists for the idiot who made the video that set all this off:
It appears that the maker of the video is one Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, alias Mark Basseley Youssef, alias Youssef M. Basseley, alias Nikola Bacily, alias Malid Ahlawi, resident of California and felon convicted in 2010 of bank fraud.
In fact, it appears that Mr. Nakoula not only owes $794,000 in restitution (making it likely that money he raised for the video was hidden from authorities) but that he may also still be on probation for his crime. He was sentenced in June, 2010 to 21 months in prison plus 6 months probation - a term which may not yet be over.
United States of America vs. Nakoula Basseley Nakoula
Still defending him?
Be careful who you call your "friends".
txmom32 - America is a democracy. That's how our system works - we vote on who our leaders are. And once the election's over, the person with the MOST votes is the leader until the next election.
Somehow the RWNJ's have decided they don't have to play by those rules any more. Get over it, or get out.
You don't have a right to get people killed just because you didn't get your way in an election.
Ah!, so are we to understand that it's your opinion of what's happening in Yemen and Libya, that this is NOT considered world-wide calamity, because Barry Soetoro occupies the White House? FWIW, (I know very little with your metal capacity) it was Barry Soetoro himself who played tough guy (without approval or consideration from either legislative branch) with Muammar Gaddafi (because it's easy pick'ins), and then failed miserably to secure ties with the new regime.
Are we also to understand that it is your belief that Barry Soetoro is not a liar, but his opposition is?
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.
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My, my, my.... another inbred democrat and liberal heard from. You just make-up your shyt as you go along don't you. Completely in-bred, with no Hope for Change. Just like the professional politician currently sitting in the chair of what is suppose to be reserved for an American with Leadership qualities. And not a life'er politician who's also a lawyer that's neither licensed and has never practiced law.
11. And this is the same guy who lectured the Supreme Court moments later in the same speech?
When you are a phony, it's hard to keep facts straight.
TxMom32 - Time will tell - The truth just came out this week about Ronald & Carter (another one of his "dirty" tricks)!
The best one yet....
He too, took along the religious right and while his wife Nancy was spreading the slogan "Say No To Drugs" across the land, the good old boy was shipping in "Cocaine" through the CIA!
There needs to be a full investigation into the origins and financing of this film. On the surface of things, it probably is just another Christian nutball eruption with no thought for consequences. However, a conspiracy theorist might wonder the following:
Since the whole world knows the insane reaction of Muslim extremists to anything suggesting disrespect of their idols, the content of this material and the timing of its release seem extremely fishy: September 11, an election year, a Republican candidate with strong ties to the very compromised Sheldon Adelson -- and a sulky Benjamin Netanyahu whining in the background because the U. S. isn't racing to start another war in Iran.
Nah, probably just all-American, born-again wingnuts who'd happily start a religious war all on their own.
concerned-999,
"Thirty years from now, we will all learn that this film was sponsored by Mitt and the extreme religious right solely for his election."
I see by your statement that ignorance and stupidity are certainly alilve and well.
@Republicans...
Technically, Romney is not a Christian. Ask any minister, pastor, priest or other religious oriofessional. ALL Christians accept the Nicene (Apolstles) Creed as a definitive statement of faith. It is usually called "The Creed." Mormons DO NOT ACCEPT the Creed. Period. By the very definition of Christianity chosen by Christians themselves around 1700 years ago, Mormons are outside the pale.
Unless, of course, your "christian" beliefs include a god who lives on planet Kolub, is married and has children and was once a man, and believe that Christ visited the American Indians in antiquity. Mormons believe that the Amerinds were a "lost" tribe of Israel, were pale-skinned, and spoke Hebrew. Christ supposedly came and ministered among them. When they refused to follow Christ, he turned them brown, made them forget Hebrew and speak a "babel of languages" and said that their land could be taken by any Christian who came along.
You have to remember that Romney has six grandmothers. His granfacther had fiuve wives. That's a lot of ugly ill-fitting sweaters at Christmas. And a major issue when Romney's father ran for President was that George had entered the country illegally from Mexico as a child. (He was born in Mexico to a Mormon family who had fled the US so they could practice polygamy.)
If Romney were elected and followed the precedent of Utah governors and Mormon senators, representatives, and judges, he would be sworn in on a King James Bible atop a Book of Mormon since the Mormons believe in the two as "co-equal gospels."
I does not even matter who made the movie, the important point is that he (or they?), just like all of us, is entitled to freedom of expression. Eventho we should respect each others beliefs, this respect should never be based on fear. Anyone in America should be able to make a movie, or write a book, or make a funny cartoon, about Muhammad, and any other religious figure, without fearing for their lives. Bashing and accusing the one(s) who made the movie equals saying we should restrict our freedom of expression because it will anger some extremists/murderers in another country. When does it stop then? should we start taking away our freedom of expression in case it angers some people in Libya? or Egypt? or Yemen? (and any other country).
Do not start turning against each other, stand together, muslims and all others, against these fanatics. Stand for freedom of expression. Blame the brainwashed murdererers, not the guy(s) who made the movie.
I would like to mention also the movie The stoning of Soraya, which is based on a true story, and which also angered a few people.
Those who shout "free speech" please see post 2.14. This is USA LAW!! Why can't conservatives read, understand facts, and/or listen??????? The 2 posts immediately after 2.14 (2.15 & 2.16) blatantly ignore the facts presented above them. Facts are just annoying obstacles to their ignorance.
Christian extremists=Muslim extremists=Jewish extremists=any extremists=all the same.
All shouting @ other and none listening to anyone who is not a member of their personal "extremist" club. The funny part (if it wasn't so sad) is they each have more IN COMMON with their "extremist" "enemies" than differences. Yet non can listen to the other--since they all have ears but refuse to hear.
This is the root cause of war, suffering and death.
Yet each extremist "sect" claims to have a monopoly on "PEACE" and "GOD" (my god is better than YOUR GOD) ;^)
Please wake up before it's too late and we're all nuked to hell because of your stubborn insistence on "righteousness" and "ignorance." You're so busy condemning the splinters in your "enemy's" eyes,--that you cannot see the plank in your own.
Duphas (appropriate handle) - do you choose to live your life by chain mail lies? Or are you just too lazy to find out the truth?
Your cut-and-paste slander really doesn't deserve any response, but just in case anyone rational might be fooled, here's a rebuttal to just your first couple of premises:
From FactCheck.org:
It only takes a couple seconds of effort to find out the truth of this crap before you start spreading it around.
And spreading derogatory information you know to be false is slander. Look it up.
@Duphus, (You chose your handle well because it fits.)
Here is a quote from www.factcheck.org:
"Q: Did Barack and Michelle Obama “surrender” their law licenses to avoid ethics charges?
A: No. A court official confirms that no public disciplinary proceeding has ever been brought against either of them, contrary to a false Internet rumor. By voluntarily inactivating their licenses, they avoid a requirement to take continuing education classes and pay hundreds of dollars in annual fees. Both could practice law again if they chose to do so."
There are similar "corrections" to your lies in literally hundreds of respected places in the web.
People who tell lies are called liars. People who repeat lies are called liars.
This sort of false and malicious screed shows how badly Romney is losing. His polls are crashing and the GOP big money boys are turning off the tap. Even Ryan is atrting to talk about "running against Hillary."
Muslims burn Bibles, American flags, call for war on Isreal, and publicly kill Americans on American soil (yes, it is American soil). American "artists" depict Jesus with feces and other insults on Christians
Should we all turn into animals and do the same?
Love it.
Just toss every religious nut (including Christians) on an island, give them weapons, set up cameras, make popcorn... hilarity ensues.
"My fairy tale can beat up your fairy tale"
"Nah uh"
"Ya huh. You can't even kill mine, cuz if you do, he will just resurrect again then run on water where you can't reach him."
"So your god is a zombie, ewwwwww... zombie worshiper"
"How dare you insult my god! Die die die."
*insert Benny Hill music*
Egypt is not an ally but is not our enemy, said Obama , but we are giving billios of dollars in aid supporting the Muslim Brotherhood.
All this Christian thing is just theater from NBC to descredit the majority of Christians, they allways come up with this kind of thing when the left is on trouble. This is part of the damage control for Obama.
Where is Obama when our embassis in Meddle East are bein treated, he is in Las Vegas in a fundraising event. He is and was in campaign mode for the last 6 years.
We need a real Commander in Chief , we need a leader.
However all the protest in middle east is not just about the movie , the movie is just an excuse from the Arab Wold to demonstrate in 9/11 their hostility toward us. The producer of the movie was right to portrait Islam like a violent religion of intolerance and hate , they believe Islam is the only true Religion and the rest of us are the infidels, for that reason they must to take over the world and establish a worldwide Caliphat. They are doing it using legal channels and banned channels. Legally emigrating to the Western Europe, America , Africa highly populating our territory with at least 3 children's per family, using all legal channels to demand religious rights and special accommodation, imposing Sharia Law and by the other hand terrorizing , killing creating destabilization and fear to anyone that dare offend , or attack them.
But the wort if all is that the left is helping them with this kind of narrative. So going back to my first sentence, they are our enemies.
I don't know what can we do about that , but this danger is very close in European countries , like France where by 2050 with the same rate of birth, Muslims will surpass the French white population, they will lose their values, history, replaced little by little by Islamic institutions.
It will happend here too if we don't wake up and the left stay in the right side; the American side.
RedVirginia: There, there...It'll be ok. (((big hugg))) They have medication to treat your paranoia.
txmom32
The whole world is moving out here. It's only FOX News and the Ryan/Romney team advocating retreat into a past that never existed. Don't let the entire world pass you by.
As to "not defending the Constitution" I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I know the right-wing use to claim that Obamacare is unconstitutional but since the Supreme Court decided otherwise...really have no idea what you're talking about. You alleged "voter fraud". During the last election there were 84 identified cases of voter fraud. That was out of 189 million ballots cast. That's approximately .00004%. Only the Republican party would concentrate their efforts on NON ISSUES while ignoring jobs. I suppose I shouldn't refer to it as a non-issue considering voter suppression is a very important issue to the Republican party.
Ol_Doc
Not only that, but next on the Republican agenda is passing legislation that makes it illegal to own dragons... because, you know... their fire-breath can burn a whole town.
We should take a moment to thank Republicans for focusing their efforts on threats and problems that don't exist.
I don't know about you, but I feel safer now. Thanks Republicans.
And for the "dufuses" out there, I will explain something. Obama went to HARVARD LAW SCHOOL. He did not go to HARVARD UNIVERSITY. His undergraduate work was done at Princeton. A law school (or a medical school) is NOT an academic institution, it is a vocational school, also called a trade school. They do not have the same system of titles as an academic institution. A JD (juris doctor) degree is NOT an academic degree. The proof of this is simple --- a PhD can teach anywhere in a university or its associated schools. A JD can only teach law in a law school. A further proof is that if you lo9ok at academic regalia, you will see that PhDs have three stripes on their sleeve. Obama would have had one stripe (for his Princeton degree.) Many lawyers and physicians do not rate any stripes because it is possible to get medical and law "degrees" with no academic degree at all (via pre-med and pre-law three-and-out programs.)
The titles in most law schools are "adjunct lecturer or instructor" (equivalent to associate professor), "lecturer" (equivalent to assistant professor), and "senior lecturer" which is equivalent to full professor. In law schoolsl, technically the term "professor" indicates one of two things --- that the person has an academic PhD, often in a related field such as politicval science, or that the person is addressed such out of respect. In his 12 years as a Constitutional Law instructor, Obama went from Instructor to Senior Lecturer --- as high as he could go without a PhD.
"Lecturer: A full-time or part-time position at a university that does not involve tenure or formal research obligations (although sometimes they choose to perform research), but can often involve administrative service roles. This position does not necessarily require a doctoral degree and usually involves a focus on undergraduate and/or introductory courses. In some colleges the term Senior Lecturer is awarded to highly qualified or accomplished lecturers. A convention some schools have begun to use is the title "teaching professor," with or without ranks, to clarify that these are in fact true faculty members who simply do not have research obligations."
It is extremely common to refer to medical doctors (MDs) and juris doctors (JDs) as "doctor" even though the title, by etiquette, should only be used when the physician or lawyer is actually engaged in professional practice in context. Physicians routinely, however, refer to themselves as "doctor" while JDs do not depite having an identical educational requirement. Likewise, faculty in law schools and medical schools often refer to themselves as a "professor" even though that honorific is technically appropriate only for academics with PhDs and teaching roles. (The only time that JDs are referred to as "doctor" is when they are testifying under oath in court on a point of law.)
So here is the correct statement: For 12 years, Obama was a lecturer in Constitutional Law at a predominantly white ultra-conservative law school. He rose from instructor to senior lecturer (equivalent to an academic full professor) on his merit. On three occasions he turned down tenure, the only time that law school had ever offered tenure to a non-tenure-track lecturer position. A lot of this was based on student and peer evaluations. He was heavily recruited by both very large and high-paying law firms (as was Michelle) as well as law schools because he was the Editor of the Harvard Law School --- that law school's highest accolade.
Yes, it is technically inappropriate to refer to a law school senior instructor as "professor" just as it is inappropriate to call a physician "doctor" outside of his actual medical activities or a lawyer "doctor" except in very specific circumstances. But people call physicians "doctor" as a sign of respect even though it is technically inappropriate. Likewise, "professors" posses PhDs and have at least some teaching responsibility, but often physicians and lawyers in their respective "first professional" schools are referred to as "professor" as a sign of respect.
BTW, my wife is a tenured full professor in a Tier 1 university.
Realamericansfirst...WE are actually a Democratic Republic....When we vote we vote for those who will Represent us to create and uphold laws. Individually, our votes do not count for the President of the United States, that system is represented by the electoral college. It can be easily subverted by corrupt people...look how the former ACORN attempted to turn in bogus voter registrations and how hard the DNC is fighting to marginalize voters by encouraging the system that will allow corruption in the voting system.
As for your suggestion that I get over it or get out.....my response, with a bit of a giggle and a smile on my face, is Ki$$ my A$$...I have several legitimate forms of ID (Passport, drivers license, SS card, etc. that I will gladly show to prove my right to expression and to question my own Government. I have no intention of getting out of the country that I love but, right now I am embarrassed by the nobody in the oval office and I have the right to express my displeasure in his lack of leadership.
How exactly have I gotten anyone killed....it is the reckless and neglegent behavior of the nobody in the whitehouse that has placed Americans, at home and abroad, at risk.
He was "quite shook up"? QUITE SHOOK UP? I'd like to shake him up. Freedom of speech comes with responsibility - you don't yell fire in a crowded theater and you don't mock something that millions hold sacred.
Release him to the Muslims and let their law handle the matter.
Freedom of Speech does not include freedom to knowingly spread hateful lies, and that is what this film is doing.
When our leaders condemn this film and say it in no way represents our values, that is not an apology, it is a simple statement of fact. We are not a nation of ignorant bigots (although reading many of the comments here, we certainly have some within our borders). All of our leaders and wannabe leaders like Romney and Ryan need to condemn this film at the same time they condemn the violence in response to it in the Middle East.
If Romney wants to lead he needs to condemn this film now instead of excusing it by claiming Freedom of Speech. To do anything less is to disqualify himself for leadership or even being a truly moral human being.
Let's see the movie. It's a free country, sort of. Pop the corn and bring out the super sized sugary drink. Roll 'em.
I feel stupid pointing this out, but HP reported the actors said the director was Egyption... It was financed by a Coptic Christian... Coptic Christians are pursecuted mercilessly in Egypt by their muslim brothers (Coptic's are arabs as well)... If they came to America to get a voice, and mock their oppressors, I'd say that is well within the spirit of free speech...
What I would quibble about is, doing such a shoddy job, and trying to blame Israel.
Though, I suppose, in their minds, the arab world hates Israel anyway, they can handle it, what difference would this make. But the coptics oppressed in Egypt, would be defenseless against their likely brutal retaliation.
"NBC News Staff" writes:
Not true. That comes from various Hadith. Don't spread falsehoods NBC.
If the world can see a movie of the assassination of Bush give a Prize to the producer and the violent extremist Tea party did not kill anybody or riot the cities, , why not about Mohammad. Is not free speech?
Many of same people who are wringing their hands about this 'grievous insult' to Muslims and wanting to crucify whoever made the film, are probably the same people who laugh their asses off at "The Book of Mormon" and think that's just swell.
Well, imagine that offended Mormons one day decide that they aren't going to take it anymore so they storm the theater, beat the attendees to a pulp, set fire to the building, and kill the director.
By the "reasoning" of many I've read on the Vine here we should then BLAME the creators of that broadway show for inciting hatred and CAUSING the militant Mormons to go nuts in a fit of violence and mayhem.
That's the mindset of those who would surrender our freedom of speech and expression in order to appease and mollify the hair-trigger rage of militant Islam.
Adam44, the "Book of Mormon" was not a vicious and dishonest attach designed to incite hatred.
All official comments have upheld the right of freedom of speech, as do most other people criticizing the movie. But free speech is not always wise speech.
And nobody has claimed that the violence is in any way justified by the movie.
The US government funded a pervert exhibit where a crucifix was put in a glass of urine and this is Ok with Dimocrats/Dumocrats
Tell that freak in the White House to beat it. We heard from a real leader yesterday....Mitt Romney
Dufass:
What site did you copy your points from?
Please site the source so we can read from the proper perspective.
Thank you for your contribution and please escuse me if I didn't get everything spelled correctly, (right? yep as far as the I can sea.) Ha!
Adam...
Exactly right !!! How much fun is openly made of Mormons, Christians, Jews, Catholics, etc in movies, tv, music, and on editorial page cartoons nearly every day of the week. Try adding up the insults thrown at Catholics and Christians...and now Mormons...on a weekly basis right here on this 'Newsvine' site ???
Take a peek at "Comedy Central" and see what they come up with ! The cartoon 'South Park' has had Jesus Christ firing a machine gun and wielding a bowie knife fighting terrorists. How many film comedies have been made with 'God' as a central character and often a sthe butt of jokes ? Ever see a comic like Chris Rock or Richard Pryor take a shot at the Big Guy and all the laughs they get out of it ???
And last week we saw the Democrat Party eliminate any possible reference to the word "God" in the party platform simply to try to nonsensically avoid offending any lofty Muslim sensabilities.
All the while, we have to choke back revultion at some of the behavior we see from the Muslim world. Really nice treatment of women in some of their countries...subjugation, beatings, mutilation, stonings, lashings, honor killings...all the wonderful things such deeply religious folk are supposed to be doing to show how holy their mindset is.
And now we're supposed to rationalize this weeks murders and attacks on our embassies as a direct product of some nutjob's 13 minute 'YouTube' clip which doesn't view the Muslim religion kindly...and that about 37 people will actually end up viewing ???
Screw them and their rathole countries...and their blood soaked religion too. Our government should either refuse to send one more taxpayer dime over there or commission the creators of 'South Park' to get their cartoon 'Jesus' over there...fully armed and ready to teach a lesson or two !
Adam & RedVirginia......my dog is has better reasoning skills than the both of you. Nuanced thinking is not something you are capable of, and while you're just going to make up everything that you post here, I just want to confirm that I know both of you personally and it is time that you move out of your mother's basement, stop stealing underwear from your grandmother's underwear drawer, and for the love of God take a shower once in a while or brush your teeth. I can't tell where that rank smell is coming from, but it smells a lots like bull$hit!
GOP = Loud impotent cowards. Talk is cheap, which is why Romney is worthless.
Anne...
Thanks for the reminder of that wonderful piece of artwork...a crucifix in a jar of urine...how'd that idea get past Monet and Picasso, anyway ?
I believe there was also a 'Virgin Mary' made of cow manure also...did anyone light the museum on fire over this garbage ???
Ok, liberals, let me get this straight. Let's say I say something not very nice to Adam44, Adam44 then gets mad and kills redvirginia. In this scenario, you are saying I should be punished for redvirginia's death? You folks are just brilliant.
sleuth...
After reading your ugly and insulting post above mine, why would anyone value whatever opinion you have on what is "worthless" or what is "worthwhile" ???
Adam44
The problem is not "insulting Muslims"... the problem is ALL Religious extremists, including the Muslim killers and the Christian antagonists.
The rational people of the world are stuck in the middle of a playground fight, where people like you argue: "my fairy tale can beat up your fairy tale."
Yes, you have the right to freedom of speech. But the rest of us are sick and tired of the violence, death and war that has come about because of a god damn fairy tale. We are sick of hearing you hollier-than-thou people preach about a religion that has done more harm than good. We are sick of you telling other people how to live their life. And we are sick of the constant fighting you start with other fairy tales.
If you are so utterly pathetic that you need to use "religion" as a crutch to do good things, because you are not a decent enough person to do good on your own, that is your problem. But stop putting the rest of the world in the middle of your f***ing fairy tale debate.
So yes, you have the "right" to say whatever you want... just like I have the right to say "F*** You, you little piece of s***" right to your children. Would you uphold my right to say that to your children? No, you would ask me to stop, because it is only causing harm. So here we are, asking you, and EVERY RELIGION, to just stop.
mguy,
Thanks for providing evidence that nonbeleivers can also be nasty, hatefull , intolerant people.
Regarding fairy tales, can you tell me that one again about how all life started with a big, uh, what was it again?
I can't believe that anyone would fall for the screen name "Sam Bacile". (imbecille) Almost like a porn name "Johnny Wad" or a school prank on a sub teacher "Who's Dick Hurts". Nothing more than a blatant attempt to stir up trouble for the president in a 100% guaranteed manner right before the election. Insulting Muhammad is 100% to set of violence somewhere.
in the middle...
Point surely made !!! Ouch !
...I also love the irony in mguys line "a god damn fairy tale". He's acknowledging god's existence and calling him a fairy tale all within the same sentence. That takes talent.
yes, inthemiddle, an old white guy with a beard waving his hands and creating the universe and all things in it out of nothing is far more plausible than any scientific theory ever could be. I especially like the part where the Jewish books say that "God says" if you're a friend to the Jewish state, he's a friend of yours. How convenient.
IN the Middle: NO YOU'RE NOT! Be careful your rightie side is showing! Whenever anyone points out facts that contradict your statements--you forsake rational debate in favor of personal abuse!
You remind me of my "Christian" friend, who, called me a "bigot" when I objected to her calling blacks "n*gg*rs" I am constantly amazed at the ability of humans to refuse to listen to facts when they contradict their world view.
Question: is ignorance REALLY bliss? If not, why do you insist on wallowing in it? I would prefer to know the truth than insist on holding on to lies.
in the middle
It doesn't matter what I believe created life, because I am not out starting a war over it... or trying to convert other people... or knocking on your door to annoy you... or killing someone else for their belief... or restricting the rights of certain people to sign government contracts because of my belief... or any of the typical s*** religious people do.
See, that's the problem. YOU, and every other religious nut can not just quietly believe... you have to push it on the world. You have to go on a "crusade" over it, or pass legislation based on it, or spread it to everyone else.
Let me break it down for you:
You are basically a child on the playground, and you are telling the other kids that your imaginary friend is real. Then they say the same to you. Then you start making rules for "tag" (or whatever game you play) based on the belief that your imaginary friend is real. Then they do the same. Then you both start arguing over who has the "real" imaginary friend. This leads to a fight, you get punched in the nose... and now you are crying to teacher that they hit you.
Now the adults have stood back and watched this entire event unfold. Shaking their heads at how stupid the whole thing is, they say: "Fine, no more talk about imaginary friends." But that makes you mad, so you jump up and yell: "How dare you tell me what to believe. I have the right to believe in whatever imaginary friend I want." Then you go back, and start the whole gad damn thing all over again.
Only now, instead of being children... you are adults, with guns and bombs, arguing over which imaginary friend is real. And the rest of us are stuck in the middle, shaking our heads at how utterly stupid the entire argument is, and wanting to just yell: "Nobody cares about your stupid, f***ing imaginary friend. Just shut up." But you can't do that, because your imaginary friend is telling you to go tell everyone else about him. Thus, the circle will continue, forever... or at least until you kill each other off.
Fair enough Pedestrian, but until you can tell me how evolution alone caused the top side of penguins to blend with the sea floor, and the bottom side to blend with the sky, I'm sticking with my God.
Devils...
Great point on the phony name !!! But is everything that happens in the entire universe have as it's motivation an attempt to hurt Mr. Obama' re-election chances ??? Don't worry about his chances being affected...we live in a nation of so many voters of wisdom that I'd make a healthy wager that over a third of the folks in this country have no idea that three of our embassies have even been attacked this week. And I'm not even factoring in the percentage of Americans who do not even know what embassies are for.
So Mr. Obama is safe...he's got the bulk of those voters safely locked away in his pocket already !
Four American lives were lost. That is a tragedy for their family and my condolences go out to them.
Yet the question posed by californianpagan is easy to answer, we (the US) do MUCH worse. This article stated that people were upset in Egypt (I'll get to that in a minute), YEMEN, SOMALIA, North Africa (they can't name the country?), and obviously Libya.
Link: http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/12/13836414-obama-egypt-not-an-ally-of-us-but-not-an-enemy?lite
President Obama is telling US citizens and the World that he hopes "to be able to capture them...." Really?
Link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/9540082/US-ambassador-killed-in-Libya-investigators-probe-whether-Benghazi-assault-was-planned.html
So we are sending WARSHIPS and MARINES? I wonder how many civilians will be killed if a warship fires on Libya? What's up with our civilian killing drones? They will be there also...
Link: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/09/libya-drone-war/
From the same article - a bit more about "the 50 marines".....
Let me just intercede here for a moment. We have the cooperation of the Libyan Government, yet we are sending Warships, I'm assuming a very specialized group of Marines, we have drones hunting the people down - excuse me... all this not to "capture" but to "AVENGE" according to the Defense Department. I assume most people realize that when a drone fires a missile, it won't just kill ONE person but quite a few in the area, including civilians - AVENGE or REVENGE killings are not diplomacy...and it looks like we will end up being the worst aggressor - no disrespect to the four Americans killed - they worked with the Libyan government for DIPLOMACY between the nations - not vengeance.
So - the American people are being lead like sheep to believe this was about a movie - when in reality, some people in these countries are tired of being bombed by our drones....
Let's think about the other countries mentioned as "burning flags." .... Somalia, Yemen ...why would they be mad?
Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/national-security/us-drones-target-two-leaders-of-somali-group-allied-with-al-qaeda/2011/06/29/AGJFxZrH_story.html?hpid=z1
Maybe they are burning flags because we are dropping TONS of bombs on them!!! I think that would get me upset too! Let's see how the average citizen of Yemen feels about DAILY drone strikes - most of which have civilian collateral damage -
Did I read that correctly - we were going after a "suspect" - we didn't know for sure, but killing a "suspect" is OK? We MISSED the "suspect" and killed three civilians - do we send flowers? Do we ever apologize?
WE MAKE A DRONE STRIKE A DAY IN YEMEN - OUR NEWS HASN'T MENTIONED THAT WE HAVE KILLED a TERRORIST a DAY - SO, I'M GOING OUT ON A LIMB AND GUESSING WE KILL CIVILIANS - WHEN WE SEE A "SUSPECT."
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/us-makes-a-drone-attack-a-day-in-yemen
We reap what we sow - we cannot terrorize these countries and not expect them to hate us... we need to work with Libya - within the boundaries of international law, to find the persons responsible for the attack on the US Embassy - we do not need to "AVENGE" anything, we need to bring "justice." There is a big difference between the two - we are looking like the terrorists to millions of people in the middle east because we ARE the terrorists!
Collapse away - I realize it's too long for those of you who like one liner's - the truth usually takes longer to get out than a glib comment.
I was hoping you would catch that. I like to throw that line in because I know how much power those simple words have over the religious right.
Can everyone chant: Unpresidential!!! Does anybody still want to vote for these lyin' traitors???
Maxwell seems a bit angry.
mguy,
The difference between us is that I am not doing what you are so angry with me over. I am not pushing my beliefs on you or anyone else, yet you are attacking me for having them, while telling me I am the aggressor.
People like you, whether atheist, Christian or whatever, are the ones starting fights on the playground. Having religious beliefs is not a prerequisite for being a bad person. Anyone can be a bad or abusive person, as you have proven once again.
I enjoyed it mguy....I like a spirited debate.
No hag, but I can chant "boring"........
Jon-1321288 -
Freedom of Speech does not include freedom to knowingly spread hateful lies, and that is what this film is doing.
Who says this film is spreading lies? It is "art" and opened to ones interpretation. Just like the piss jesus painting was considered art and therefore protected and allowed to be shown in art museums.
And who can scientifically prove without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus was resurrected from the cross and that allah was really a god and mohammad his profit?
According to libs... it is all open to interpertaion.
I am always amazed that people are always willing to give up other peoples liberties until their own liberties come into question.
Not attacking you, per se, but more so every religion. Sure, there may be a few that quietly sit in the corner and don't push their belief, knock on doors, or try to pass legislation based on their belief.
Great, perfect... those rare people are not the problem. It is the rest of your religion, and every religion, that are the problem. If every person was like you, this event would not have occurred. But they are not like you, they are out there starting arguments and pushing their belief on others.
I'm not concerned with the 10% (or whatever the number) of Christians, or Muslims, or whoever, that keep to themselves. I am sick of the 90% that can't keep their beliefs to themselves.
jock repllied to my Mormon rampage hypothetical post as follows:
Wait a minute jock, that's not something that YOU get to decide. It's something that a Mormon would determine, not you.
I wasn't talking about "official" comments, I was talking about a lot of junk I've seen on the topic here on the Vine.
I never said otherwise. It doesn't have to be wise in order to be protected. In fact it's the UNwise speech that is most important to protect, or at least that's what we've always been told whenever Christianity is the target.
Some people are coming awfully close. There's a fine line between "expaining" and "justifying" in this case because if we accept the premise that the "movie" (using that term loosely) CAUSED the Muslims to riot and kill in response, then we are in effect blaming the movie and the movie-maker, no matter how silly, obscure, amateurish, and inconsequential that "movie" is.
My main point is that if it wasn't this movie it would be something else for the nutjobs to riot and kill over, such is their hair-trigger, Pavlovian sensitivity/insecurity to anything/everything related to their religion. That should tell us more about their religion than it does about any cartoon, movie, or other excuse that's used to menace and kill over.
The makers of this "production" knew exactly what they were going to get. It's not too hard to imagine. They should be held accountable for that aspect of what they've done.
As a Liberal, a Humanist and a Journalist (non practicing at the moment) I'm highly supportive of the idea of our constitutional right of free speech. I use it all the time.
On the other hand we're dealing with a culture (moslem) that has a large fanatical segment of it's followers/supporters that mentally are still in the Middle Ages in terms of their extremism and ignorance.
For that reason and in this case I believe the makers of this "production" should be publicly outed.
A way of making them take responsibility for their actions. Of making a point that free speech is fine so long as the author(s) are the primary, if not only ones that are subject to the ramifications of their "work".
By staying anonymous these ultra-christian fanatics are not so much pursuing their Freedom of Speech as much as they are inciting an unstable segment of the Middle East and putting untold thousands, including many Americans, in harm's way.
After all, those same ultra-christian types went ballistic over a silly movie called The Last Temptation of Christ which rightly depicted him as mortal and subject to human weaknesses and temptations. And it was much less insulting and demeaning to xtians than this anti-moslem vid is reported to be. To me it wasn't terribly inciting nor as overt. Very much a yawn actually.
The only difference is that they, the lunatic xtian fringe, fortunately didn't go out and murder people over a film, at least not so far.
But they're just as capable as moslems are given their ability to kill innocent non-xtians, like Sihks, as well as maim and kill those that practice and support a Woman's Right to Choose, Evolution studies and other related non-xtian issues.
Freedom of Speech isn't just a right, it's a responsibility.
sleuth23 has a different take, as follows:
Yes sleuth, I made up a hypothetical situation in order to make a point. Obviously you are not sophisticated enough to follow the argument.
All the rest of what you wrote was adolescent sandbox blather.
The 90 percent you are talking about had nothing to do with that hateful person. In a matter of fact the person who did that video, could have been someone like you who dispise religion, and like to judge. A real Christian person did not do that video, because we are taught to love everyone not matter who they are. Now there is 10% who are extremist and in reality they are not Christains who capable Capable of doing that hateful video. Christains have the same rights of freedom of speech, if you do not like go back to the country your ancesters come from. That person is going to have to live with what he did, and he is just as guilty and those extrimist moslums.
mguy replied as follows:
Isn't a "killer" worse than an "antagonist?"
Except that's not what I was arguing. Nice try though.
Nice rant, there's just one little itty problem with it... I'm not religious, I'm an atheist you genius.
I'm an atheist. So much for your idiiotic rant.
Hardly the same thing as a silly, stupid little "film" that no one knew about let alone watched except the radical fundamentalist nutjobs in the M.E. THEY were the ones disseminating the movie and working themselves up into a rage over it. Quite a different thing than getting into someone's face, let alone a child's, and being assaultive. They were CHOOSING to bask in the movie which otherwise no one would've cared one bit about.
I'm not religious you dingbat.
Martha R Vazquez - "... A real Christian person did not do that video, because we are taught to love everyone not matter who they are."
Lady you need to read up on the history of the Xtian Religion! WOW!
Oh lets all be afraid of insulting the peaceful Muslims.. Screw that if you want any negative words toward the Islamic CULT to be censored in fear of the backwards towel headed morons who only know violence as the answer.. The sad part is that history records that Mohammad was as bloodthirsty as Geingas Khan and killed rivals for their wives and also had sex with children and men..The movie is poorly done but shows how sick the minds of the Islamic CULT really are.. Afraid of the truth and or criticism they impose death to those who speak their opinion if it differs from the rose scented version they dry hump.. Many figures in the bible were guilty of slaughtering and raping their way across the ancient lands but are hailed as heroes of the Christians and Jews.. These organized cult religious all have skeletons in the closet and are all a joke..
The reports are out, it wasn't the movie.... it is our incessant drone warfare.... if half your family was killed by a missile because a "suspect" was in your neighborhood - and that happened over and over and over... I don't think you would think of yourself as a "nutjob" with a hair trigger when you had a chance for "justice" or "revenge."
I am really wondering about this Nahoula guy. Where did an ex-con get $5 million in financing? Why does a self-described Egyptian Copt have a Syrian last name?
Yeah, Syrian. if you Google "Nahoula" and exclude all the stories about this movie and the embassy attacks, you start coming up with names of people in Damascus. I'm really wondering about this man's motives. Is he really an anti-Muslim Christian, or was he paid by Islamic terrorists to make this movie to stir up trouble? He seems like a really shady character who's been operating under many different aliases and committing all kinds of crimes; when did he suddenly get religion?
The attack at the Libyan embassy seems like it was premeditated. Random crowds upset about some stupid movie on YouTube don't just suddenly turn up with rocket grenade launchers. Something weird is going on here.
This is a case of freedom of speech. Do you have any idea what is shown on Youtube? Mass beheadings, anti-american propaganda, anti-jewish , anti-christian sentiment. All of these are considered "free speech" in this country just like making fun of christians and jews in their countries are considered "their freedom of speech".
What is surprising is that stupid americans are not standing up to this radical movement and are saying that we as the US deserve this. Whose side are you on anyway?
It gives them no right to destroy the embassy just like it no right for us destroy their embassies here. That is what you should be mad about. Stop using a double standard!
Christians are made fun of every day on this site and are called "religious nut jobs, extremists, etc. Do you really think that muslims deserve more respect just because they riot in the streets? NO! They should be given less respect, not more!
Martha
Oh please, you Christians go around and around with this.
"They are not a REAL Christian, I am... just look at this verse."
"No, you are not a REAL Christian, I am... just look at this other verse."
"No, neither of you are REAL Christians, I am... just look at this verse."
You Christians can't even get along with each other, you're too busy fighting over who is a "REAL" Christian. This is no different than the different versions of Islam, and all the Muslims fighting over who is right.
And people like you wonder why other religions, and the non-religious, can't stand you? You can't even stand each other.
Sad to see people turning against each other, and against the guy who made the film. You are blaming the wrong people, you should blame the fanatics who attacked the ambassies and murdered the personel, not the guy who expressed his feelings about Muhammad through a movie. There is also books about Muhammad, and cartoons, and all the people who wrote these books and cartoons have had fatwas against them and their lives threatened.
BK&SC writes:
That figures that you swallow the al-Qaida propaganda, hook, line, and sinker. Those drone attacks are carefully targeted to AVOID civilian casualties and just kill the bad guy(s). That's why most of the time they are hit while driving along in a car with other militants. Has a civilian ever died from a drone strike? Probably, but unlike the terrorists our forces try to avoid civilian deaths. The enemy TARGETS civilians. You might not understand or appreciate the difference but fortunately most people do.
Of course this thread isn't about drone strikes but I guess you don't have anything worthwhile to offer about the movie which is on-topic.
Hmmmm, didn't see any mention of Mr. Nakoula being granted a Visa, Green Card, or anything about granting him entry into the United States. And now he is living in California. Hmmmmm.
When are people going to learn spreading hate can only create more hate?
@Adam44
Topics EVOLVE... if you weren't so stuck on a dying premise (it's about a movie), you would have continued to look at the news about the bombing today. Your point is now worthless - but that's not my fault, I keep up with the news. FYI - Libya has for in custody, Tyler the head of Newsvine has posted many pictures of Libyans who said our Ambassador was a friend of Libya, he will be missed. Sorry, the news didn't devolve into a war which you would probably support!
who cares where the guy was from or his criminal past he didnt murder anyone or anything like that The ONLY persons responsible are the ones who took part in the MOB attack. Do not twist this blame on anyone else but them! they did it they should pay and some should pay with their lives.
I meant "four" not "for." Yet, for the record, I am happy that this tragedy did NOT evolve into the war you probably wanted!
I wish I knew - how can one hate an entire region, country or religion that they have no personal knowledge of (as in living there, speaking the language, meeting the regular people who are just like us?).
Nice post: MireV03 and a very good question! (no sarcasm)!
Uh, because all the penguins that didn't blend got eaten.
How hard is that?
@adam44 who stated to another poster:
Why I think we have a case of the Kettle calling the pot black! If you would have read my previous post and not who I posting too in retort, you (may)(could)(possibly) have learned something about what the rest of the news was saying. NBC is not the only "news" source - but again, even NBCNews has "evolved" today... you just like to pick fights...
Shhhhhh, can you all hear that?
Hear it?
No?
OK, I thought I heard Barrack hussein pretending to be a leader.
I guess the glitz and glamour of Las Vegas is more important than governance at a time like this.
Can you imagine the outrage and violence of the Liberal bobbleheads if Bush just went merrily campaigning as our embassies and consulates were being attacked. As our Ambassadors and staff were murdered?
The hypocrisy is incredible.
ROMNEY/RYAN 2012 for real Americans
I say we take all the Christian extremists, and Jewish extremists and Muslim extremists.... we pop some popcorn.... and have one big thunderdome / cage match / hunger games.... and kick back and watch.
oh, and throw all these off the chart election season Romney and Obama supporter nutcases in there too...
Look we have plenty of crazies here in the states!
So an Egyptian man moves to America and attacks by film the Muslim religion so some crazy people attacked and killed Americans who never met or heard of this man.
Stupid and stupider.
Keep it real.
But honestly do these particular people need a reason to kill Americans?
Attitudes are contagious so was it hitler who was the problem or the hate that spread from one to another. But I believe we empower and no one has power.
I agree with you, but I would like to know who it was who was being "assaultive." Was it Muslims or only Muslims, or were there Copts involved as well? Given this new information, the second is no longer in the realm of the absolutely unlikely.
Harson,
Smartest thing I heard all day! Fight water with water, fire with fire. That always works.
If it was your neighbor, your brother or your child who died, you would not have such a cavalier attitude towards it.
Yes.
Not, probably. Yes.
Your statement is nonsensical. If our people TARGETED civilians, they would be up for trial on murder. In our country. Like the terrorists would be, if and when they do get caught. The problem isn't that we target civilians. The problem is that civilians die.
The "well, the enemy targets civilians" is a morally reprehensible defense. In fact, it is not a defense at all.
You might have not noticed it, since it was not mentioned in the news, but 1.5 billion Muslims did NOT protest anything. They just went about their day and minded their own business, uncaring about what this movie had to say.
So what exactly would we be protesting?
The problem here is not the film. The problem is the Muslim whackos. Christian symbols and American flags get desecrated all of the time in the middle east. No one in this country responds by storming their embassies in DC and killing their ambassadors. No one here goes out in the street shouting "death to Iran, Syria, Egypt, Libya". You people that keep wanting to accomodate the sensitivities of the Muslims extremists are sick and ignorant people with some kind of death wish. The Muslim loonies feel their God justifies killing us all and you politically correct types whine and want to make aplogies? Lets be real here for a minute, the middle east is the anus of the world and no amount of money, kindness or expressions of tolerance on our end is ever going to change that.
While this was certainly a 'dumb' project, it clearly falls under the caption of "Free Speech" that the liberals are constantly harping on.
Interestingly, I don't see many of them defending the right to make this film. HYPOCRISY, anyone?
alan3008 "Whether it was a "56-year-old Israeli American real estate developer from California who had made the movie by raising $5 million from wealthy Jewish donors", or a radical Christian that made that film, he should be hunted down and tried for involuntary manslaughter."
Would you feel the same way if a film was made making fun of Jesus Christ?
I suspect that you would say that's OK because it's Christians that would be offended, not Muslims.
californianpagan
No, we, muslims and all others, shouldn't. But we shouldn't close our eyes and pretend "we" are all the same either. There is hundreds of attacks perpetrated by extremist muslims every year, we, muslims and all others, should not ignore this reality. Muslims know this just as much as any Christian and everyone else. Being apologist and/or making excuses for it doesn't solve anything.
You all know very well that, while we should respect each other's beliefs, you can burn Bibles, make demeaning and/or funny movies, write books, cartoons, about Christians, Jesus, Mary, and all the apostles, without fearing for your life. But you cannot do the same about Muhammad without someone somewhere declaring a fatwa on you, putting your life in danger.
Enough with the politically correct statements, the reality is that if you so much as say a bad word about Muhammad you are putting your life in danger, even if you are on American soil. We should respect each other, however being afraid of making a movie about Muhammad or else see everyone turn against you, fellow citizens and extremist muslims alike, that is NOT right either. People should be able to express themselves without a bunch of fanatics threatening to murder them, or worse, actually murdering them.
Leaving politics out of this, it absolutely boggles my mind that people are focusing their anger and blame on whoever made that stupid, insignificant 13 minute video. Sure, that guy is an idiot, but who cares. I'd venture to guess that stupid videos that denigrate religion are made thousands of times a year. No one gives a s***.
But for thousands of people to mob embassies, burn them to the ground, and murder people - that's crazy. I don't care what incited them. Those murderers are totally nuts and deserve 1000% of the blame here. People who make excuses for them, or want to place blame on someone else for their actions are embarrasing themselves.
Please just shut up with your stupid self-righteous comments about how Christian extremists are the same as Muslim extremists. I haven't seen any Christian extremist mob burn down foreign embassies and murder totally innocent people. If the worst thing you can bring up is the case of one demented individual who made an insulting film about another religion...I don't even know what to say anymore.
And btw, I'm not Christian.
A trailer for the amateurish film, posted on YouTube in July and later reposted after being translated into Arabic, portrays Muhammad, believed by Muslims to be God’s prophet, variously as a womanizer, a homosexual and a child abuser.
Finally msnbc is posting some actual truth.
And so the apology tour begins...screw freedom of speech...might as well just burn history too.
glad to see our president and his media are front and center of the beg-a-thon applogy tour. Strong leadership is what we get! yay lol makes me puke
I know this the part about the womanizer( 12 wives compared to the allotted 4 for most men) and the child abuser( Aisha) to be true. But does anyone know about the homosexuality?
I can say anything I want about Mohammed in this country and any american should be able to say the same thing without fear from other countries "tolerance".
They really don't care about what you liberals think.
I recommend viewing the collection of photos on Cnn.com of various Islamic protests around the world since Tuesday evening.
Some of the images are enough to make me sick. Burning Israeli and American flags, signs that say "remember your black day, September 11".
All in response to a stupid 13 minute trailer video, that I can guarantee you, none of the protestors or murderers watched themselves. It's sickening.
Obviously, the correct response to all this isn't so simple, but I hope that Obama does something responsible and which defends America.
But to focus our blame and anger on the guy who made the video...you're all a bunch of cowards. By blaming him, you are essentially validating the murderers. When the terrorists reads these postings and sees actual Americans blaming the filmmaker, he's going to think "I won". He's going to think that his terrorist actions succeeded. And it will motivate him to do it again.
Terrorists by definition are trying to motivate via fear, motivate via murderous action. Terrorist isn't a war tactic, it's a political tactic. You think the terrorists actually care who that American diplomat was? They only care to send a message to the rest of us. And we need to stand strong, and soundly reject that message. We need to puck back, by calling them crazy, and standing up for what we believe in, which is freedom of expression and civilization, where people can choose to do what they want and not be forced by others.
BK&SC, you said a few things that I would ordinarily reply to but then you closed with the following statement that tells me you are not someone I should be taking seriously:
So it's on to Byron next.
I wrote:
Byron replied:
The "assaultive" point was in reply to what someone else had written about how I wouldn't like it if someone was screaming threats at my kid. It had nothing to do with Muslims versus Copts or anything else like that.
Can anyone explain the logic of why the translated clip was aired on national Egyptian tv and others? Is it not against the Koran to show Muhammad like that? so WTF are you doing broadcasting it on TV? WTF are you doing with copies of it? Should the copies not have been destroyed? And you call yourselves Muslims, Allah and Muhammad are pissed at you too.
(P.S. I can use bold just like caps newsvine. When I yell it is for a FING reason. It is to show emotion you know the "reason" WHY I write these things. If everything was fine and dandy would I be here wasting my time trying to educate people? People just need to stop being such cry babies. If I offended you, YOU NEEDED IT.)
Regarding the drone derail (thanks to BK&SC), you write:
Of course I wouldn't, but no one around me is harboring terrorists so it's a moot point.
Then I wrote (to BK&SC):
Byron replies:
Yes! Now you understand (hopefully). WE police our own and do NOT tolerate targeting civilians even when they're intertwined with al-Qaida and Taliban terrorists who we are at war with.
Yes, but don't you see? The reason that WE have to bring terrorists to justice, one way or the other, is because no one else will where they are hiding out. Thus the need for drones which reach deep into areas where terrorists formerly plotted, trained, and hide out with impunity when not actively attacking us. They can't do that any longer which is a very good thing. Drones equalize the battle. In a way we are terrorizing the terrorists, yes, and no one more richly deserves that karma.
We are at war. Civilians always get caught in the crossfire in wars. They get killed less often with drone warfare than in any other kind in the history of warfare. Fact.
Tired, you are not alone. Most "real" Americans (ha ha, that should get some panties in a twist ;-) are furious about all of this.
And you make some good points. Why are the all mainstream media outlets in the western world ONLY investigating who was behind that silly, inconsequential "movie," while at the same time completely IGNORING the widely organized campaign by radical fundamentalist nutjobs in Egypt and across the MIddle East who are pouring gasoline on the fire by deliberately shoving something that they KNOW will cause tens of thousands of Muslims to go ape-sh!t in front of millions of Muslims. Shouldn't they bear some of the responsibility for all this? Shouldn't they bear the responsibility for MOST of all this? So who is behind it? That's something our media dandies haven't even lifted a finger to find out more about.
Yeah sure, lets turn against each other and agree with the extremists, lets condone the murder (because that is what would happen to him if he was handled to the Muslims in Libya) of a guy because he made an insulting movie. Let's condone the murders of everyone who ever wrote a book, or made a movie, or a cartoon, about Muhammad (or any other religious figure) that was offensive. I guess you would be ok if a Christian murdered someone for burning the bible too? Or a Buddhist bombing an ambassy because someone in a foreign country would have insulted Buddha? Shame on you.
Well said Adam44. I also remember an episode of South Park where they made fun of Mormons, surely some of them were offended, but I haven't seen a crowd of fanatic Mormons attacking and murdering people.
Sleuth23
You are correct, talk is cheap and that is all that Obama has to offer, all he has ever had to offer America. To the Russians he offers "flexible" after the elections. To the terrorists who killed our American Ambassador on our soveriegn soil in Libya he offers a tacit appology for someone insulting them. To his cronies he offers our tax dollars to throw away on "greeen dreams". Since all he offers us for our tax dollars is talk that makes him useless to us. All this movie BS is just that BULL PUCKIE. The day was the 11th anniversary of 9-11 and you clowns think it was a sudden unplanned uprising over some unheard of movie?? Give me a break, that is a NBC - Obama cronie flap to belie the real failure of this administration to even think of protecting our people in the Middle East on such a day ripe for this kind of thing. And what do they do after the fact? Oh, I have to campaign while I consider my options. Yeah, well we have considered our options and it is to fire your Obama behind in November and get a real American in the whitehouse.
One thousand years ago, the Middle East and Muslim culture was center of philosophy and science, then they began concentrating more on religion. Here in the USA there has been a movement to ignore science and focus on religious beliefs such as the denial of evolution. Are we ready, here in the USA, to go down this same failed road seeing its results?!
Thanks Anna, it's reassuring to have an intelligent and committed blog-friend like you on the Vine here so that I can be sure that the whole world hasn't gone mad when I read your posts :)
ShakingMyHead, I doubt that sleuth23 would agree with you on much of anything in these debates. He usually takes a complete opposite view to your's.
Or maybe I should say, ala Obama: "You know, I don't think that you should consider him an ally but maybe don't consider him an enemy either." Huh??
Absolutely True!
I love all these Islamic apologist communist/democrats that think mere words or images are justification to go out and kill people. Really? So I guess it would be ok for Christians to kill all artists because one put a cross in a jar full of urine. A guy made a film that some people dont like to f in bad its no justification to kill people. The JD should stay the f out of this the f up to much stuff already.
Adam44
You're welcome Adam, and thank you for the kind words. The same goes for you :)
What you don't see are thousands of Americans breaking into embassy's of these Middle Eastern countries or burning Mosques and killing Muslims in this country in anger over this outrage - so who are the more rational people? Who would you rather have final control over the world?
Good news...Eric Holder will be investigating!
I suppose Muslims are! They do have virgins waiting in heaven which is quite the perk. Does that come with a side of eternal bliss, or does mortality play a role in the life of virgin orgies as well? And what do the women get? Surely they must be rewarded in some way for being a faithful Muslim?
So you want a bunch of radical islamist telling us what we can say? My heart goes out to the families that lost loved ones over this, but the radical dogs will use any excuse to kill Americans. I bet if you fart upwind of a mosque they would say we are being disrespectful to something dealing with mohammad and start killing Americans.
TheKhanKubla
You sure about that? From what I have seen, more and more people are moving away from religion in the U.S. Do you have any references to back up your statement?
mguy, seems to me that you are the nut job of all nut jobs telling by your dumb lyrics.
I wonder how the media of the day covered the Catholics rise to power?
Isn't NBC owned by Jews? I wonder how many times Microsoft has squirmed in their seats during their affiliation with NBC? I know; Microsoft is no angel either...how many divisions of Microsoft are there and what are their bonds with each other - gotta love Empire building.
It is looking more and more like we have different things going on here, but there are several things connecting them all - you can't just look at each slice of the pie - you have to look at the whole pie. I'm not so sure religion is behind this - Osama bin Laden was very clear it was sanctions that hurt his people that prompted his actions - and we are always enacting political strategies to try and get others to comply with our wishes. Those strategies come from both parties.
Why did this article avoid the Terry Jones connection?
Lots of egg on the faces of those who jumped right to only Muslims being the entire problem - let those God Games begin...we the meek shall indeed one day inherit the Earth.
Why aren't REAL AMERICANS doing this to Mexican embassies?
It was reprehensible. But it's still free speech.
Some people seem to think that they must support what was said to support free speech. Or that if someone criticizes what was said, that it somehow criticizes free speech.
But no, there is nothing more American than denouncing what someone says but still supporting their right to say it.
Its NOT about the "film"! Its about ISLAM!! KILL THE BASTARDS and get it over with. We should have machine guns surrounding our embassies and shoot to kill if this crap happens. Its AMERICAN soil!
No, they respond by babbling about the "war on Terrah", stereotyping about Islam being a hat-based religion, and demanding war against whatever nation the Neocons have their sights set on at the moment.
See post 2.138 or a variety of other posts above if you need clarification.
Shuklack, thanks for your post at 2.137...spot on.
Mohamed al-Zawahiri, brother of al Qaeda chief Ayman al-Zawahiri, says he called a "peaceful protest" in Cairo as part of the 9/11 anniversary attacks on U.S. embassies that left the U.S. ambassador to Libya dead and the U.S. embassy in Egypt in shambles. March of this year, a Egyptian military court found Muhammed Zawahiri not guilty of all charges relating to the murder of Anwar Sadat
The attacks, came on a day commemorating the Zawahiri family's direct role in coordinated terror attacks that killed more than 3,000 people from more than 60 nations. The movie is nothing more than an excuse to the violent action that lead to the assassination of Americans in Libya.
When the terrorist attacked in Libya they were chanting " Obama, we are all Osama's! Does this sound like they were angry over a movie?
Our government misleads us by pointing our anger toward some obscure filmmaker! In reality it was never over that film! It was a preplanned attack on all Embassies in the region! It was the anniversary of 9/11 and the terrorist were making a statement!
In their need to show America as always in the wrong, our government inserted the film to draw citizens away from what really happened! By redirecting our anger toward ourselves, it allows them to make nice with the people who orchestrate this madness!
Ah, kill the messenger. The usual defamations at work by the tabloid known as nbc. The video would be just as relevant if the author were a saint or an axe murderer. Put simply, the character or past of the author is irrelevant, but the tabloid is attempting to discredit the video based solely on whatever skeletons may be in the author's closet.
BTW, this video is, or course, a dramatization but based on historical fact, especially the fact that mohammad was a brigand and a murderer that preyed on caravans and took many slaves to satisfy his carnal desires.
That the sons of the moon god would set the world afire because of one person's short video is ample evidence of their propensity towards barbarism and savagery.
ALL islam is the SAME!! Its not about "extremist", its ALL about timing! IF you dont know this then you know NOTHING about islam. GET THEM THE HELL OUT OF THIS COUNTRY BEFORE ITS TO LATE!! They are a cancer where ever they are!
I'm glad you're so proud of your bigotry, tt...it lets everyone to clearly see the ugliness that pervades the modern Conservative Movement.
YES!!!
You should have the right to make fun of anyone's God, mother, brother, sister, dog, cat, or clothes. That's what freedom of speech means...defending the most offensive speech! Look up the origins of thew right...the right clearly is meant to protect the most offensive speech.
Making fun of someone is NOT an excuse or incitement of violence. PERIOD. It is not the same thing to say "go kill X", and that leading to X dying. Saying "your shoes are ugly" and that getting you killed is NOT incitement...it's a murder in response to offensive WORDS that physically hurt NO ONE.
So many of the idiots here in this thread suggest limiting free speech where it is not necessary, desirable, or legally allowed to be limited. Let me explain for them:
You CAN yell fire in a crowded theatre, IF there is a FIRE. You can't do it IF there is NO fire...because that is inciting a panic...the charge is not "free speech violation", it's "inciting a panic".
You CAN say false things about someone...provided it's joke, not meant to slander/libel someone's character REASONABLY. See the People vs Larry Flynt where the SCOTUS ruled he could say Jerry Falwell's mother had sex with him and he had sex with chickens AS A JOKE!
The following was quoted...but they left out the most important part!:
BUT, I repeat...BUT:
So you can even advocate for breaking laws, and for force (violence), as long as you are not specifically telling people to directly carry out your advice. This is called the"clear and present danger test", or the "imminent lawless action" test.
So, clearly, you can say almost any damn thing you please. This film is NOT a violation of free speech. It IS offensive and totally bigoted...but that doesn't make an excuse for those who act violently in reaction. The violent actors are the problem, not the offensive speech. This is both the law and the ethical, logical conclusion. Anyone wanting limits on freedom of speech or wanting to prosecute the flmmakers (or worse) is a freedom-hating person, or a person with little or no understanding of the freedom of speech they claim to love so much. Quit hating freedom, start researching it.
BTW...United States v. O'Brien says its illegal to burn your draft card as a protest...so let's not draw our morality from laws, okay? I mean, if they passed a law that said you had to kill all left handed people, who is the real criminal (someone causing harm to an unwilling participant)...you for killing people in accordance to the "law", or me for refusing to kill left handed people? Think it through.
ALSO: I am not religious, I don't care one way or the other about Christianity, Islam, atheism, etc. (I'm a Deist). So please, don't act as if I'm anti-muslim...I'm just pro-free speech. I have a Jewish friend whose best friend is Muslim, and I dine with them frequently. I have no problem with either of them or their religions, per se.
Black Kettle & Sand Creek...lest we forget
I don't know, maybe you should ask the fanatics who have been attacking the embassies and murdering people?
Christians exercises freedom of speech to make a film pointing out the ignorant barbarism of Islam... and a group of Islamic fanatics kill innocent American citizens.... and the Christians are the extremists??? nbcnews, your anti-christian/pro Muslim bias is sickening....
In some bizzare way there is a tiny kernal of truth in what you wrote. In the article, "...promoted by a small band of Christian extremists" should be changed to "...promoted by a small group of morons claiming to be Christians." That does not excuse murder. But. You condemn all Muslims for the action of a few? How very Christian of you.....
By the way: The attack that killed the US diplomats in Bengazi was not a mob action - it was a coordinated assault by a small group of well-trained, well-armed persons. And was likely al Qaeda sponsored and totallu unrelated to the moron film. Think (sorry for asking too much...): What was the date of the consulate assault???? DUH!
Yes, the christians are extremists AND the muslims are fanatics. See how that works. The abrahamic religions are all junk.
There are all sorts of fanatics in each religion, the West keeps checks on Christian Taliban-minded radicals because we are more socially advanced since we had an Enlightenment and Industrial Revolution; most Muslim nations are in the Middle Ages.
Iran is as modern as we are.
FedUp would have us believe christians can't be extremists nor can they be terrorists even though there is an abundance of examples proving otherwise. But I guess to list them would be considered anti-christian. So if saying bad, but true, things about christianity is anti-christian what is it when you say bad, but true, things about islam?
Freedom of speech is an American right that is not recognized in many other country's.Who ever promoted this film and posted it on You Tube should in my opinion, be charged with, inciting to riot resulting in death, and those that comitted these violent acts charged with rioting,arson,attempted murder and murder.
It doesn't take much to stir them up...
Wry observer
Try going into a redneck southern bar and shouting "I am a Yankee and I hate all of youloch sucking Confederates." see what the reaction will be. In your own words "It don't take much to stir them up."
That was supposed to read"all of you Koch sucking Confederates."
Trying walking into a bar in Boston and saying, "The Red Sox are just a bunch of pansies and you all suck!". Quit just trying to pick out "The South" as if it's some Islamic extremist equivalent. Crime is much worse elsewhere.
Either way, yeah, you might get beat up...maybe. But they certainly wouldn't then go blow up the house in town that some "Yankees" moved into who had nothing to do with you being a jerk.
That was an ignorant and idiotic comment.
Les, please direct your comments toward someone. Somebody might get offended thinking you're talking about them and then look for an innocent Texan to blow up.
Fed Up, right you are! Nearly every day America and the world is blanketed with hate filled messages and images from muslims who denounce every one who is not a believer in thier cruel hate filled, illiterate culture of depravation and subjugation. Now why in the hell would anyone not expect a rebuttal or more from all the targets of these hate filled cowardly scum who are determined to put thier culture and it's violent religious law called sharia into effect world wide? Islam the worst scourge the world has ever seen!
Fed Up,
"Christians exercises freedom of speech to make a film pointing out the ignorant barbarism of Islam..."
Someone needs to make a film exposing the ignorant barbarism of these "film makers". It was nothing more than a juvenile and irresponsible stunt deliberately calculated to inflame Muslims. You don't mock what is most sacred to others without expecting repercussions, and in this case those repercussions included the loss of lives. You speak of the right to free speech, but rights entail obligations as well: the obligation to use that right responsibly. I think Americans need to be reminded of that.
The film was reprehensible and disgusting. The response to it was worse than that.
But, I don't like the idea of limiting our freedoms in response to terror. Why are we not allowed to say certain things because it might piss off someone halfway around the world? A civil suit in response would be legitimate, but these idiots cannot be brought up on criminal charges. Remember all that stuff after 9/11 about not limiting freedom or "the terrorists have won"?
@Jersey Bob: So when people claiming to be Christian do extremist things, they are not true Christians, but when people claiming to be Muslim do extremist things, they are examples of the evils of Islam? Isn't that a double standard?
Mickey, of course you are right. Hate is not protected by the First Amendment.
Alan, thanks for posting. Too bad nobody will reread it and remember what the rights are and are not in the First Amendment.
hambone johnson,
"But, I don't like the idea of limiting our freedoms in response to terror."
I was not talking about limiting anyone's rights, but I'm sure you are familiar with the concept of self-discipline. It's only for those who are incapable of exercising self-discipline that imposed discipline becomes necessary. These film makers were not exercising self-discipline when they produced a film that they knew would inflame Muslims, and was, in fact, intended to do just that and possibly result in a loss of life. I learned that distinction between self-discipline and imposed discipline when I was in the military. It isn't a matter of limiting anyone's rights; it's a matter of self-discipline.
"You don't mock what is most sacred to others without expecting repercussions,"
There have been many such anti-christian and anti-christian institution documentaries made, published, shown in theaters and on television. Christians don't usually behead people and burn down embassies, maybe that's why you apparently haven't heard of these movies. ("The God That Wasn't There," "Zeitgeist," "Religulous" are but a few. Check them out, then watch some of the anti-christian Comedians, and Google Mapplethorpe's "Christ in Piss" images.) Where is your righteous indignation when it comes mocking "what is most sacred" to Christians?
People like you don't have the courage to stand up to someone who may try to slap you down. That's why it was an an exercise of freedom of speech when it was about Christ, but somehow an evil provocation of the minority downtrodden when it comes to Islam. In the words of the great wise Yoda, "Such poosies, you are."
Here's a foreign idea for you guys: let's keep freedom of speech in this country and let the Muslims learn how to properly deal with criticism of their religious ideals, just like you all expect Christians to do.
Those who shout "free speech" please see post 2.14. This is USA LAW!! Why can't conservatives read, understand facts, and/or listen??????? The 2 posts immediately after 2.14 (2.15 & 2.16) blatantly ignore the facts presented above them. Facts are just annoying obstacles to their ignorance.
Christian extremists=Muslim extremists=Jewish extremists=any extremists=all the same.
All shouting @ other and none listening to anyone who is not a member of their personal "extremist" club. The funny part (if it wasn't so sad) is they each have more IN COMMON with their "extremist" "enemies" than differences. Yet non can listen to the other--since they all have ears but refuse to hear.
This is the root cause of war, suffering and death.
Yet each extremist "sect" claims to have a monopoly on "PEACE" and "GOD" (my god is better than YOUR GOD) ;^)
Please wake up before it's too late and we're all nuked to hell because of your stubborn insistence on "righteousness" and "ignorance." You're so busy condemning the splinters in your "enemy's" eyes,--that you cannot see the plank in your own.
You Sir, are 100% right. I am not a Christian, and I see the bias. And this goes further then being pro-Muslim, it is being pro-extremist muslims, and making excuses for the murders. Even muslims stand against extremist muslims.
CC GWRider,
"People like you don't have the courage to stand up to someone who may try to slap you down. That's why it was an an exercise of freedom of speech when it was about Christ, but somehow an evil provocation of the minority downtrodden when it comes to Islam."
I'm aware of the insults against Christians, and I don't approve of them either. It is you who seem to be advocating a double standard. It's all right to insult Muslims; it's just not right to insult Christians. If you claim to be a Christian, then I am sure you are familiar with the words, "As ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise" Luke 6:31. If you don't like being insulted yourself, then don't insult others.
To: WeldDem: Freedom of speech is an American right that is not recognized in many other country's.Who ever promoted this film and posted it on You Tube should in my opinion, be charged with, inciting to riot resulting in death, and those that comitted these violent acts charged with rioting,arson,attempted murder and murder....
So based on your theroy, you could make a movie --- say like "Dogma" which some would say if very offensive to Christians/Catholics and that movie caused a riot in which protesters burned (pick a place) and innocent people were killed.... that you should be held accountable and charged for inciting to riot resulting in death?
Or would your opinion change and then your defense would be freedom of speech while blaming it on right wing Christian fanatics?
Just saying
Just because something is legal doesn't mean it is moral. This movie is like yelling fire in a crowded theater. The apologists who are defending the promotion of the movie are almost as bad as the protesters.
On the other hand you Sir are promoting restricting freedom of speech in case we offend some people somewhere in another country. You keep blaming the guy who made a movie to express his feelings about Muhammad, instead of the maniacs who murdered people at the ambassy.
Personally I think people have the right to make any movie, write any book, and any cartoon, whether it would be about Muhammad, or Jesus, or any other religious figure, and whether it would be nice or not.
Protesting peacefully is fine, had they been marching in front of the ambassy to protest it would have been expected and acceptable, but murdering people because they made a movie that offended you is not. All peaceful muslims, even if they were offended by the movie, do not condone these murders nor the violence in general.
This is what Mahnaz Mohammadi (iranian women's rights activist and film-maker) got for making a documentary denouncing violence: Iranian film-maker detained in notorious Tehran prison: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/30/iranian-filmmaker-mahnaz-mohammadi-detained , is this how you want it to be in America?
That's OK, Fed Up, those who ass-kiss Islam will be the first to be put out of business by same.
Let us know when you decide to start thinking with your brain instead of your gonads.
They need a moat of flammable liquid around our embassy's in these savage filled countries.
Better than kissing the behinds of a bunch of bigoted a holes in the christian religion...
The New World Order is so disorderly...
Rick, Rick, Rick.
What do Christians have to do with the murder of American citizens by Muslims? Oh...we made them do it. lol I guess Dims/Dums have the same (non) thought processes. I remember when the Apologizer in Chief was campaigning in 2008 and promising state of the art prisons ...for the poor kid with the hole in his heart who was forced to shoot into a crowd of innocent bystanders.
Priceless
Since I haven't been to a religious service in over 30 years, I can hardly be described as a "religious" anything. But I do find Rick's comment to be offensive...a response to insulting one religion by insulting another religion.
Rick was likely one of delegates at the Democrat Party convention last week...booing his lungs out over any simple reference to 'God' in the party platform.
But I doubt he'd allow himself to insult the wonder of "Islam" !!!
This guy's name is certainly not Sam Bacile.
It is Im Becile.
He is probably in hiding until he gets his five minutes of shame on Hannity or O'Reilly.
There ya have it Republicons; the dude that made the movie is actually a Middle eastern terrorist conman from Egypt....now tell us this morons, why are you supporting terrorists? Isnt that against American values?
Lets see how they get out of this one....
I wouldn't be surprised if at the end of the film it said "I am Mitt Romney and I approve this message:.
As MANY Agree mittens needs a few diversions to keep the facts away:
TAX RETURNS
LIES ABOUT BAIN CAPITAL his tenure as ceo; the current investigation for Tax Fraud
Shredding the books for the Olympics
His extensive Off shore Bank Accounts (common knowledge of where to "hide money")
His Experience as Gov in Mass Mr 47th in job creation out of 50 (impressive..)
LIES and flip flops each and everytime he opens his snickering mouth, the MOST pathetic excuse for a Presidential Candidate EVER, and for his little lyan ryan buddy well what can I say that most fact checkers have not: he's the worst consistent "pants on fire" ever!
think about it: why would romney be so far behind in the polls in his "home state" Michigan his father was Gov??? why so far behind in Mass where he was gov?? lyin ryan behind in his home state of Wis behind..,..
People are trying to tell you something...Pay Attention..Don't be fooled by these war hungry cowards!
Obama/Biden 2012
RICK: And there you have it..... freedom of speech. How come only losers in this country know what that means, yet they still back up the oppressors of the other muslim countries?
I bet Rick here sides with the muslims.
Someone recently blogged,
This is not true!! Nakoula, a militant Christian activists is definitely not a TRUE CHRISTIAN. But he is an extremely evil person, who uses religion in name only as an excuse to promote his agenda and advancement of extremely evil hatred for whatever personal reasons. Instead of a religious Christian, his actions are nothing more than a cult behavior with the destruction and killing of other innocent, good people (which does not include Bin Ladin). A true Christian (regardless of the religious denomination anywhere in the world) strives to lead a good life, and helps others whenever possible, etc. Evil hatred involving killing is not good, and definitely not true Christian behavior. It appears as if Nakoula's sole purpose for this cult film was to incite a riot. Therefore, he should be jailed immediately for violation of his probation (financial fraud and 2 previous jail sentences). Also, if he is not a U.S. Citizen and is not in jail, then he should be deported back to where he came from. However, perhaps Hell is a more appropriate place for someone like him with all his hatred. Nakula, not only used religion as a facade; but also used innocent people here and abroad by enticing them into participation of deceptive violence simply because they did not have all the facts to make a rational decision.
There is more to this than what we've been told. Follow the money paper trail back to its home! There lies some possible answers to the "what and why" for these recent actions. Did Nakoula get paid to do this, or did he act solely on his own? Who paid him? Who is really behind this (politics or individuals)? What was the real reason for stirring up such violent behavior? Why was the man with such a "rap sheet" to include Financial Fraud allowed to be out on probation, or is this more of this special judicial treatment for Wall Street offenders?
One more question to attach to post # 4.12
Is this current situation a political attempt of some sort to pin this blame on a specific person that might possibly effect the outcome of November's election??
Islam— what the West needs to know.
"You should know that muslims act differently when they are in an american environment."
"They must not be questioned in islam because islam'shistorical character is supposed be known as a religion of peace , because if anyone questions them they are immediately rendered a bigot, a racist."
"The idea that islam is a spiritual religion is wrong, because since its beginning it has been a system of govt."
"When people look at islam, they compare it to other religions, and that is their first mistake."
DocHolliday-2979123
First they reported this movie none of us ever heard of before it showed up as the excuse for the terrorists attacking our embassies, was made by an Israely Filmaker in California. Now they claim it was made by an Egyptian Christian who is an ex con man. Next only God knows who will be blamed for making it, anything to carry on the Democrat strategy to distract, deny and denigrate. This date had tremendous significance and everyone knew it and if anyone in this administration had the brains god gave a goose, they would have been sure to up the security on all our people in the Middle East, but then they were too busy running around collecting money to try to keep useless in the Whitehouse. The safety of the American citizens has never been a priority with this administration and some wonder if the opposite is not true.
As a Christian, I am troubled by the callous disregard for Christ's teachings to love one another. There is no teaching from Christ which justifies attacking or belittling another person.
Turn you silly Christian cheek to a Muslim and he'll take your head. Christian teachings don't work with Muslims. The sooner we realize that, the better. But, remain delusional if you wish.
Pray, you forget that christian teachings don't work period or have you also forgotten the number of murders committed in the name of the christian god? But you can remain delusional if you wish.
It's a Liberal thing.
Liberals are willing to see millions of Americans killed to demonstrate their "tolerance" of those doing the killing. This even though the killers hate everything that Liberals stand for.
Of course, their "tolerance" doesn't extend to those being killed. And anyone that speaks out against the killers is labeled an "extremist".
This video has been out there for over a year. I have no doubt that the militant Islamists have known about it all along. They closely monitor all Western media. But NBC News will continue this drumbeat of Christian "extremism" as the cause of these riots and killing, even though pretty much EVERYBODY knows that is was just an excuse, because it suits the NBC agenda.
Foolishness:
So, you ADMIT that being a REAL Christian is to be a liberal?
After all, was Christ not a liberal? AND the first socialist?
Or do you practice being a hypocrite? After all, you can't 'say' you're a Christian and practice bigotry and hatred, now can you?
@Foolinesh: And Repugnicons are willing to see many Americans dead sending somebody else's son to fight another war. Pull out every single American from there, cut the aid and let them be helped by Muhammad.
A true Muslim who follows the Qu'ran and not the teachings of extremist imams would do no such thing. Just as Christians have the golden rule 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' so to does the Qu'ran:
"... To each among you, We (God) prescribed a religion (law) and a clear way. If God had willed, He would have made you all in one nation and one religion), but that He (God) left you in different religions to compete in good deeds and society benefits. The return of all of you is to God; then He (God) will inform you about that in which you differ"(Quran, Chapter 5, Verse 48)
" ... Repel the evil with one which is better (God commands his believers to be patient at the time of anger, and to excuse those who treat them badly) then verily he, between whom and you there was enmity, will become as though he was a close friend". (Quran, chapter 41, verse 34)
foolishness abounds
Movie was shown in June and trailer posted to web in July YEAR?
Who the hell are you kidding? Christian teachings don't work with Christians. If they did there would be no such thing as a Right-Wing Fundamentalist Christian.
Religions, the core of all evil & most wars.
Religion, a way to control the masses through fear & ignorance.
Haven't your gods & prophets filled their bellies full enough with the blood of mankind yet? I don't understand the fighting which is based on invisable beings which no man has seen.
hernan331,
" And Repugnicons are willing to see many Americans dead sending somebody else's son to fight another war."
You don't seem to understand politics whereby it takes BOTH parties to fight a war. As far as sending somebody esle's son to fight, take a look at wars fought by this country from 1950 on. Count all the sons of politicians from both parties who weaseled out of service to their country. Then make a statement like the one you did with verifiable facts, IF YOU CAN.
"You liberals need to get a clue what an "extremists" is. BTW, you support the Muslims now because you don't like Christians, what are you going to do when Muslims force their religious views on you. You will convert or DIE. You will not speak out against Mohammed the way you talk about Jesus. You may dislike Christians for calling you out on your behavior, but they don't kill you."
christians don't kill us because hundreds of years of scientific progress and secularization have neutered christianity into a shadow of it's former self
christians want nothing more than to burn witches and stone adulterers, but they know that behavior is no longer tolerated in western society
christians are no better than muslims. they're not wiser or more "civilized" by any means. one religious whackjob is just as bad as another
Sorry you're upset, OP. But face facts. The majority of ppl who say they are Christian, find it too difficult to be a Christian. Lower emotions feel too good and are too satisfying to give up. Throw in a little bait, such as your post (not that you are baiting) and watch them tear each others throats out. I would never call myself a follower of a teaching unless I was 100% committed to eventually becoming like that teaching.
Gee what a cleaver handle. We understand fundamentalist religious fanatics just fine. As to converting or dying...I believe I'd prefer to die thank you very much. I also believe my military training and personal weapons mean I stand a better than average chance to send some folks to meet their 72 virgins (or heavenly father) depending on which group of fanatics try forcing their religion down my throat. But thank you for your concern...
Calif Pagan: You are spot on! For example:
Pray Hard writes "Turn you silly Christian cheek to a Muslim and he'll take your head. Christian teachings don't work with Muslims. The sooner we realize that, the better. But, remain delusional if you wish."
Pray--you need to pray harder. Jesus NEVER said turn the other cheek--unless it's someone you don't like. Jesus said: love your neighbor as yourself"--and then clarified that EVERYONE is our "neighbor."
It's amazing how many so-called "Christians" are EXACTLY like their "enemies" (Muslims) etc. These "Christians" wallow in their ignorance and even BRAG about their refusal to PRACTICE WHAT THEY PREACH! They refuse to see the plank in their own eyes, yet never cease pointing out the splinters in the eyes of others. Amazing!
For the record, I am a Liberal! And, I am a Christian. I am a Democrat because I believe in equality and Christ's command to care for one another. I do not believe in the death penalty and I do not believe in war, but I tolerate those things which I dislike so that a government keeps a society civil and viable.
DKJ - Religions are the core of all evil and most wars? Nope. Men create religions and men start wars. Shall we get rid of men and rid the planet of evil and wars? Blame is convenient but ignorant. Oh, and cowardly.
alim: "Shall we get rid of men and rid the planet of evil and wars?"
YES!
Alverant - Why the hysterical obsession with whether someone chooses the Christian faith? You can choose for yourself about such things. Are you against the freedom of someone else to choose? Have you been attacked by Christians - Catholics, maybe? (Obama doesn't like Catholics). Southern Baptists? (the Clintons are Southern Baptists). Obama's campaign 2008 called Bill Clinton a racist. Not exactly a Christian thing to do and I only mention it because Obama proclaims he is a Christian. Methodists? Lutherans? (Those crazy people from Minnesota - you hate Minnesota?). Anglicans? (Lots of black people in the Anglican church - do you not like black people?)Presbyterians? (Peter Marshall because he was Scottish)? Weslyans? Charismatics? Pentecostal? Seventh Day Adventist? Or are you just 'ranting'. I'll bet that's it. Otherwise it is a bias. It is a bigot who would say the things you say. Ranting or bigotry, Alverant? Perhaps both.
@Amanda-2017567 - Thank you (sincerely) ... your post is needed!
It seems that when human beings start labeling themselves - no matter the label "liberal" or "conservative," "Black, White, Hispanic," Jewish, Christian, Muslim," - they see only the label that they do not like and forget that it is a human being, one they may not know - but nevertheless, a human that they are condemning because of labels.
No matter the religion, color, orientation, etc... the WORLD of homo-sapiens is the same. We love, we bleed, we feel - we all share this planet with all the other wonderful species, land and water.
Religion aside - one should never condemn another whom he/she doesn't know. If you know the person personally and you don't get along - agree to not associate, don't put each other down, or make the other look like a bad person.
Tyler the head of Newsvine has posted many pictures - of men and women who are condemning the attack on the US embassy, many signs say the Ambassador was a "friend who we will miss."
Humans share only one world while living, a world with only a certain amount of resources, a world where all have contributed to it's decline -in species lost, healthy water, corruption, etc... Even if you don't "see" it, when one side of the world suffers, the other shall have the same fate at some point. It's time to point out what we all have in common - instead of our differences.
Thank you Amanda, I think you picked very good passages from the Qur'an.
History will tell his own truth, Allah is patient
Watch the trailers for the movie. It's stupid, but so what? Looks like something Ed Wood would have made or some of that stupid programming on the Christian channel. However, Muslims are responsible for their own insanity no matter how much they blame it on others. Muslims are a stupid, primitive, backward people who refuse to join the 21st century; therefore, they're going to have massive problems forever. Let them eat cake and die. Islam is poison.
Imagine what would happen if someone did the same thing to christianity. Are you saying that there wouldn't be protests or threats? If you are then you are blind to the realities of christian privlidge.
Look around, Alverant!!
It DOES happen to Christian beliefs ALL THE TIME. Have you forgotten the feces-smeared Jesus? The urine-soaked Madonna?
There are protests but you don't see riots, arson, and murder.
fool, do you know what happened to those artists? They were threatened and assaulted. Thanks for supporting what I said. Like it or not, people HAVE been killed for critizing christianity and we get the course of "not a real christian" from moderates who secretly cheer the murderer.
Oh yes, please. Let's go ahead and pretend like Christians are a bunch of peace loving people who never did ANYTHING to stir up trouble.
Do yourself a favor.....look up and read about "Just War Theory" and "Holy War" and you will find that they are something created by and carried out by Christians over hundreds of years. Often times, the people they waged these wars against and the land they conquered were Muslims. Spanish Inquisition, Holy Crusades, Catholics of all nationality killing non-converts when they came to North and South America, making non-converts in Africa slaves. Even recently you had the IRA in Ireland, that nut bag in Norway last year, the KKK in the US, NLFT in India, the LRA in Uganda. The 14 shamans (you know non-violent "spiritual healers") murdered in Peru in 2011 by Evangelical Christians because they were trying to start a school.
See, when any other religion has violent fanatics Christians get all holier than thou, but when it comes to the violent extremist Christians they all of a sudden become ignorant to it. Nice, real nice.
The only way there will ever be peace and security in this world is if there was NO religion.
Those who shout "free speech" please see post 2.14. This is USA LAW!! Why can't conservatives read, understand facts, and/or listen??????? The 2 posts immediately after 2.14 (2.15 & 2.16) blatantly ignore the facts presented above them. Facts are just annoying obstacles to their ignorance.
Christian extremists=Muslim extremists=Jewish extremists=any extremists=all the same.
All shouting @ other and none listening to anyone who is not a member of their personal "extremist" club. The funny part (if it wasn't so sad) is they each have more IN COMMON with their "extremist" "enemies" than differences. Yet non can listen to the other--since they all have ears but refuse to hear.
This is the root cause of war, suffering and death.
Yet each extremist "sect" claims to have a monopoly on "PEACE" and "GOD" (my god is better than YOUR GOD) ;^)
Please wake up before it's too late and we're all nuked to hell because of your stubborn insistence on "righteousness" and "ignorance." You're so busy condemning the splinters in your "enemy's" eyes,--that you cannot see the plank in your own.
Maxwell's Silver Hammer
alim: "Shall we get rid of men and rid the planet of evil and wars?"
YES!
Maxwell would have the world rid of humankind, but lacks the fortutude to set the example. Then lectures - HILARIOUS!!
This is a free country and we have the right to believe in what we want and if that means someone believes the Muslims religion is the evil of all evils, then it is their right to believe that and promote that without reprisals from the Muslims.
This radical group also hates and puts out hateful material about the Catholic religion. Are there any countries where they are committing acts of terrorism against our country. NO.
There is no God, and no prophet. All the religious books were written by old powerful men who figured out that the best way to control ignorant and uneducated population was to make up some God and then some real person and make him Gods mouth piece.
If there was that powerful of God then he/she would NOT need a mouth piece to talk to all the peoples on earth. That God could just talk to all of us at one time.
There is no God and no prophets and I have a right to believe this and to take it to the net or make a movie if I want to. If the Muslims don't like it, they can just kiss my butt. They do NOT get to tell me what I will believe!
It's long past time for the leaders of the world to stop appeasing the Muslims.
Steven, best post I've read in days. We simply cannot allow Islam and its appeasers to take us back to the 7th century. The actions of Muslims have nothing to do with this movie. It has to do with the insanity of Muslims and their deep seated rage at their own stupidity. Imagine an imam running your entire life ... poverty, stupidity, sexual frustration, hate, murder, etc., ad nauseum ... wouldn't you be angry?
You may enjoy the right to free speech and expression sure, but is it wise to insight a group that is known to take it out on our people abroad?? Clearly this was done intentionally to insight a holy war to bring about armageddon.
Oh...so we should just continue to kiss their a$$es?
It's why we use a little something called diplomacy. Say it with me diplomacy! You may not agree, but we can't just bomb and kill and invade all nations to make them agree with us. How are we any better than you claim they are if we do that?
RealityCheck, you need a reality check. Glad you are subconciously asking for it. Here it is: Try loving your neighbors instead of thinking about kissing bottoms.
You all r stupid to sit here and argue. I wish life over there was not that way, but we can't do anything about it. It's not our place. I also wish America would stay out of countries that hate us so. We tried to help witch is what any god would want. No god in my mind would support such hate and violence. I belive they do it to stay in power, and supress their own people just like the Cathlic church did for like a 1000 yrs. No one is right about releigion, cause it is imposible to prove. We r one of a few countries that has embraced fact to alow growth of body and mind. releigous law is a joke and the people of those releigion r the punch line. No god could ever want that and Muhammad was just a man, a power crazed man. a murderer and a liar to all that followed him just like all releigions. and befor u start knockin me i do believe in a god but not releigion its all bull made by man.
It is not a question of appeasement. It is a question of doing stupid things---- which endangers innocent people, both American and other.
Pray Hard-662027
Imagine an imam running your entire life ... poverty, stupidity, sexual frustration, hate, murder, etc., ad nauseum ...
Then don't vote Republican!
Are you kissing their asses? Perhaps you should stop. I know most of us don't. Our President has been busy killing their Terrorist leaders. But if you would rather kiss their asses ... hey, they repealed DADT, so do what you want.
"It is not a question of appeasement. It is a question of doing stupid things---- which endangers innocent people, both American and other."
The only stupid action that endangered anyone's life was by the stupid people that riot and burn over a movie, a cartoon, a book, or someone accidentally burning a Quran. Keep the blame where it belongs, guys.
goodfor,
"...but is it wise to insight a group that is known to take it out on our people abroad??"
Let's get something straight - there is a large faction of muslims that HATE AMERICA and want nothing more to do then kill Americans. There is no appeasing them and I don't want to appease these people because you can't do it. It's the old schoolyard bully bit - you're better off standing up to a bully even if you get your lumps. The US needs to have a little backbone even if our "president" doesn't.
This is a free country and we have the right to believe in what we want and if that means someone believes the Muslims religion is the evil of all evils, then it is their right to believe that and promote that without reprisals from the Muslims.
You can belive it, but to promote it to the public and expect all who see your "opinion" to respect it, is ridiculous and naive. Assault and property damage are against the law. That is the only thing standing in the way of "rebuttals".
cc: "Keep the blame where it belongs, guys."
Good idea! Let's blame ALL us humans--especially "religious extremists" who shout they believe in "God", "Love," "Peace." Yet, at "best," they refuse to listen to the "other side" or, AT WORST, threaten to "nuke them all to hell."
They remind me of my little brothers fighting: "My god is better than your god" (tongues stuck out) "na na na na na"
GROW UP! You're holding the rest of us humans back from evolving into something better.
@Steven,
I would have to disagree with you. Yes, organized religion was had people who exploited believers just as poilitical parties do the same with their "believers."
But that does not mean that all religion is the result of powerful people creating an "opiate for the masses." That is just Marxist nonsense.
At its core, religion is one of the most important social "glues" that have crafted all civilizations and cultures. The oldest man-made structures the world (Gobekli Tepe) are over 12,000 years old and had obvious religious context. Religion was originally a way of explaining the unknown and of creating a social context that was larger than the individual. As religion progressed, society coalesced around religion because it provided consistent sets of rules to govern society. Without religion as a sort of "moral compass" each individual would have to consider each act in terms of ethics and morals. Religion supplied guideposts to make that process more "standardized" helping to create civilizations and cultures based on rules and on social contracts between the individuals in groups.
It actually makes little what religionone subscribes to. The basics are the same. Society depends on having and following rules. Society exists to support the least among its individual members. Religion can, and often does, bring humanity, compassion, and dignity to a world that would otherwise be individuals fighting meaningless dog-eat-dog agendas.
You do not have to be religious to understand how religion can benefit society. And you can be very religious and still see the difference between organized religion (which is little more than a political bureaucracy) and true religion which seeks only to help us lead our lives in a more orderly and moral fashion.
Sure. go ahead and write the movie, but if you are so tough, post your name number and adress. People like you are such a coward. write and hide. Go ahead and insult the muslims, but DO NOT HAVE THE REST OF US AMERICANS PAY FOR YOUR FOLLY!!!!! You people think you control the world and everyone thinks like you. You think that there should be no repercussions for what you sy and do. OK be deluusional.
Fact: If you write nasty stuff about people dont be surprised if you get punched in the face.
fact: There are those that will kill you for what you say and no amount of "free Speech" rights will save you.
So, go ahead tough guy. write your words. make a video. But be a man andstand by what you say and do. Dont hide. If you hate the muslims, go say it to their face.
you and Your guy Mitt is the worst coward of any presidential candidate ever.
Exactly what do you want to fight over? The right to make fun of their god?
@Chris - where have you been all day friend! I got sucked into his discussion in the morning because you were there :) ... then you left me...I did what I could :)
Nice post, and nice to see you again!
YES!!!
You should have the right to make fun of anyone's God, mother, brother, sister, dog, cat, or clothes. That's what freedom of speech means...defending the most offensive speech! Look up the origins of thew right...the right clearly is meant to protect the most offensive speech.
Making fun of someone is NOT an excuse or incitement of violence. PERIOD. It is not the same thing to say "go kill X", and that leading to X dying. Saying "your shoes are ugly" and that getting you killed is NOT incitement...it's a murder in response to offensive WORDS that physicallt hurt NO ONE.
So many of the idiots here in this thread suggest limiting free speech where it is not necessary, desirable, or legally allowed to be limited. Let me explain for them:
You CAN yell fire in a crowded theatre, IF there is a FIRE. You can't do it IF there is NO fire...because that is inciting a panic...the charge is not "free speech violation", it's "inciting a panic".
You CAN say false things about someone...provided it's joke, not meant to slander/libel someone's character REASONABLY. See the People vs Larry Flynt where the SCOTUS ruled he could say Jerry Falwell's mother had sex with him and he had sex with chickens AS A JOKE!
The following was quoted...but they left out the most important part!:
BUT, I repeat...BUT:
So you can even advocate for breaking laws, and for force (violence), as long as you are not specifically telling people to directly carry out your advice. This is called the"clear and present danger test", or the "imminent lawless action" test.
So, clearly, you can say almost any damn thing you please. This film is NOT a violation of free speech. It IS offensive and totally bigoted...but that doesn't make an excuse for those who act violently in reaction. The violent actors are the problem, not the offensive speech. This is both the law and the ethical, logical conclusion. Anyone wanting limits on freedom of speech or wanting to prosecute the flmmakers (or worse) is a freedom-hating person, or a person with little or no understanding of the freedom of speech they claim to love so much. Quit hating freedom, start researching it.
BTW...United States v. O'Brien says its illegal to burn your draft card as a protest...so let's not draw our morality from laws, okay? I mean, if they passed a law that said you had to kill all left handed people, who is the real criminal (someone causing harm to an unwilling participant)...you for killing people in accordance to the "law", or me for refusing to kill left handed people? Think it through.
ALSO: I am not religious, I don't care one way or the other about Christianity, Islam, atheism, etc. (I'm a Deist). So please, don't act as if I'm anti-muslim...I'm just pro-free speech. I have a Jewish friend whose best friend is Muslim, and I dine with them frequently. I have no problem with either of them or their religions, per se.
I'm with Bertrand: "Religion is based . . . mainly on fear . . . fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race-Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathematician, and social critic (1872-1970)
Why don't each of us focus our attention on criticism of our own religion and work on making it better? For each of our religions there seem to be plenty of faults to be found. That would certainly reduce the level of violence in the world.
The only thing that will reduce violence is defeating these Muslim pigs.
John, thank you for your thoughtful comment. I agree.
The Christian faith was founded on internal criticism. The Disciples disagreed with Christ often, the Early Church fathers disagreed with one another, the main body of the church has split several times over disagreements, Catholics disagree with Protestants, Young Christians disagree with old Christians. Christianity has thrived and spread and been embraced openly because it allows room for self criticism.
Likewise Judaism allows for self criticism and disagreement. Sikhism allows for self criticism, Almost every religion in the world allows for peaceful self criticism except for Islam, which demands absolute adherence to the written word. The only real division exist between the two main sects of Islam, but these difference are primarily social, they each agree on the same religious principles and the same text and the same interpretation of the text and yet even here if they could they would kill each other off.
Candle, since when does christianity support criticism of itself? Tell me what happened to Galelio for example. The truth is that christianity has a long history of using violence and oppression to supress differing view points especially when it comes to evidence disproving the claims made by the christian bible.
LOL. Galileo? Holy crap. Your point about Christian violence and oppression involves Galileo? That's great.
So little is taught about ancient history or even recent history. So many don't know or don't care to know the factual rise and fall of all religious beliefs. Christianity was one of the bloodiest, corrupt religions of all time. For those that did not bow down to the Bishops or the Church they could and were burnt alive at the stake. The people didn't even have the right to read the Bible until the 1300 rds when the King James version was revised and made available to the public and not just to the priesthood. Bishops ran brothels in London and the Church of England was as corrupt with power as any. The crusades pushed Christianity with blood shed.
Have we grown up since then? When you read these posts most of them are full of hate and drivel, not facts. So basicly those spewing hate are no different than other extremeist who spew hate. This country fought a civil war based on hate. On those who believe that they have the rights to run other peoples lives and ideals.
There are two factors in this. One the people who made the film knew that it had the potential to incite riots, and the people who used it as an excuse to riot. neither are correct both are extreme examples of ?
Jesus said "Love thy enemy's
Who would you rather have for your neighbor- the average Muslim who is peace-loving AND a good neighbor; or a Christian extremist- key word being extremist. I know what my choice would be.
Matt, remember a tiny historical period called the Reformation and the Inquisition? Where heretics were tortured and burned at the stake? And the Inquisition was run by which Christian denomination? Millions of humans have been murdered by those claiming to represent the true teaching of Jesus. However, if you read the Sermon on the Mount, no where does Jesus advocate murdering those who disagree with you - the Sermon is the tenant of Jesus's teachings and Christianity.
"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth; blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy; blessed are the PEACEMAKERS, for they shall be called the children of God"... No advocating violence here. And yet the Catholic Church in particular has the blood of millions on its collective hands.
Sandra.
The King James version of the bible was published during the early 1600. Yes, it was more widely distributed, but that was because of the printing press which Guttenburg invented in the late 1400s. Nevertheless, your point is well taken. Christianity has been bloody and oppressive in its past. Blood and oppression stem from the belief that "this religion is the only way to righteousness." Such a belief, no matter which religion claims it, sets its adherants up to use violence against those who believe differently since these people are by definition evil.
"LOL. Galileo? Holy crap. Your point about Christian violence and oppression involves Galileo? That's great."
Yes, for the most part they have to go that far back, and then can't understand why they get laughed at. The Muslim violence is happening today, but Christians are expected to still take ridicule for what happened 200, 500, 1000 years ago. Besides, most (if not all) of the injustices that the ignorant blame on "Christians" was actually perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church, which was a mixture of corrupt government and religion (similar to Islam today in the ME) and NOT representative of modern Christianity. It was the mixing of government and religion that caused those problems, and the "protestant" movement was the attempt of honest Christians to rectify them. Other more recent violence from "Christians" had geo-political issues at their roots, or someone was labeled "Christian" simply because they were white American, not because of raw religious tenets such as rioting because someone draws a cartoon of Mohammed. Hopefully, Islam and the World will survive long enough for the Muslim "protestant" movement to fix the current corruption in their religion.
"Who would you rather have for your neighbor- the average Muslim who is peace-loving AND a good neighbor; or a Christian extremist- key word being extremist. I know what my choice would be."
Who would you rather have, the average Christian who is peace-loving AND a good neighbor, or an Islamist extremist? Stupid, misleading statement. Your own bigotry is showing, res.
Someone recently blogged,
"Religions are the root of all evil".
This is not true!! Nakoula, a militant Christian activists is definitely not a TRUE CHRISTIAN. But he is an extremely evil person, who uses religion in name only as an excuse to promote his agenda and advancement of extremely evil hatred for whatever personal reasons. Instead of a religious Christian, his actions are nothing more than a cult behavior with the destruction and killing of other innocent, good people (which does not include Bin Ladin). A true Christian (regardless of the religious denomination anywhere in the world) strives to lead a good life, and helps others whenever possible, etc. Evil hatred involving killing is not good, and definitely not true Christian behavior. It appears as if Nakoula's sole purpose for this cult film was to incite a riot. Therefore, he should be jailed immediately for violation of his probation (financial fraud and 2 previous jail sentences). Also, if he is not a U.S. Citizen and is not in jail, then he should be deported back to where he came from. However, perhaps Hell is a more appropriate place for someone like him with all his hatred. Nakula, not only used religion as a facade; but also used innocent people here and abroad by enticing them into participation of deceptive violence simply because they did not have all the facts to make a rational decision.
There is more to this than what we've been told. Follow the money paper trail back to its home! There lies some possible answers to the "what and why" for these recent actions. Did Nakoula get paid to do this, or did he act solely on his own? Who paid him? Who is really behind this (politics or individuals)? What was the real reason for stirring up such violent behavior? Why was the man with such a "rap sheet" to include Financial Fraud allowed to be out on probation, or is this more of this special judicial treatment for Wall Street offenders? Finally, is this current situation a political attempt of some sort to pin this blame on a specific person that might possibly effect the outcome of November's election??
When did we become a nation of such self-loathing people, so intent on mocking Christianity while at the same time doing so with such smugness? The Crusades example is getting tiresome. Is there some kind of newsvine wikipedia written by self-described atheists with talking points on it? The same examples have been parroted to the point of now being erroneous. Sure, there are examples of hypocrisy in the 2,000 year history of the Christian faith. Life under Islam was not a one-sided, multi-cultural paradise either. Islam came out of the Arabian peninsula in the 7th century and spread across North Africa by fire and sword. Non-muslims were allowed to co-exist (depending on the ruler), but were treated as second-class citizens and had to pay a tax. This only extended to Christians and Jews (people of the 5 books). The others were made "an offer that they couldn't refuse": conversion or death. Yet I only hear posters ranting about the quest to "liberate the Holy Lands" as if Christians are the only group guilty of historical hypocrisy. The majority of those lesser nobles who set off to liberate Jerusalem, Damascus or Acre were landless and did so in the hopes of gaining fame and wealth. They sacked quite a few Christian lands along the way. Likewise the Popes were in a constant power struggle with the kings of Europe. Religion played a part in the Crusades, but they weren't driven solely by the Christian teachings.
My main gripe is this: if you are going to post a "Christian" bashing diatribe, at least get some original material. If you are so intent on ranting about Christian violence, then please stop making it sound like a junior college debate. Why not cite the Thirty Years War (1618-1648) which ravaged German, pitted Protestant states against Catholics and featured some of the worst acts of barbarity by both Catholic and Protestant forces against civilians? Those not killed or forcibly displaced, starved to death. Then take a look at Oliver Cromwell's venture into Ireland during the English Civil War and read about what he did at Wexford and Drogheda. Why are you self-described secularists and atheists spouting off as if you have just landed here from the planet of political correctness and righteousness? For many of you, these are your ancestors as much as they are mine. Why do you speak of my history as a Christian with scorn, when you come from the very same ethnic and racial stock? You may very well be direct descendants of the Roundheads who butchered innocent Catholic women and children at Wexford or burnt them alive. Unless you evolved from a higher form of life, there are "Christians" in your not too distant family past.
Yeah, the title to this article is despicable. How DARE someone have the audacity to make a movie. To quote Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
I am confused by your post but you get 10 bonus points for Inigo Montoya reference.
Freedom of speech does not cover words intended to incite violence.
Alverant... criticism of another religion should not incite violence. As a Catholic, I have been criticized personally and many in this country have continually attacked my beleifs because of the action of the cleregy. In many cases, the criticism and attacks have been very harsh. But, what you do not see, is mobs of Catholics rioting and vanalizing our government instituitions or atheists because we have been criticized.
So, now because Muslim's cannot stand to be criticized, we are not allowed to do that at all because it may incite violence. Next thing you know is Muslims will be attacking US interests because the government allows Christians to worship in the US. Are you then going to come out and say that freedom of religion should not incite violence and therefore the Christians within the US shouldn't openly worship as such since a Muslim on the other side of the world may be offended and attack our interests.
STLMIke,
Agreed. We cannot start limiting what an American can say, as horrible as it might be, because someone halfway around the world gets mad.
hambone,the First Amendment does include hate. Please read Alan's post above.
Are you really so naive that you do not see the reason behind this film. It was made for one reason and only one reason. To incite riots and to kill.
Watch the trailer on YT and then come back and explain the difference between criticizing and purposeful degradation.
Horsecrap Mike. If you know that "more likely than not" your action will incite violence and you take the action knowing full well violence "more likely than not" will ensue...you are inciting violence.
I don't give a sh!t if your Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist or believe in the flying spaghetti monster...if you and you fellow believers are intentionally provoked to violence, the individual who provoked you is inciting violence...what do you not understand?
slightlyold,
i may be naive. But i stand by my statement.
I haven't watched the video because I have no desire to, but i am well aware that it's inflammatory and hateful.
But are you seriously suggesting and an American citizen needs to watch what s/he says so as not to offend people in other countries?
That sounds like capitulation.
Bingo!!!
Your name should be "spoon-fed", rather than "fed-up". What ever happened to being respectful of other ideologies? This is not about freedom of speech, it is about hatred, ignorance, and irresponsible behavior! This goes for the extremist "Muslims", and for the extremist "Christians". Why should we expect others to react in a reasonable manner when our acts are so gross and reckless? What was the purpose of the film, other than to ignite rage and violence? Are you so dense that you don't get it? We need to stop blaming others for the consequences of our own actions, and "man" up. Shame on you for justifying this bloodshed as an exercise of freedom!
So the thousands of years of violence this movie was talking about was incited by the movie.
How is that possible?
Ivy, I'd probably be more "respectful" if the objective of that barbaric cult wasn't to subjugate or kill me. It's exactly about freedom of speech (ignoring liberal apologist political correctness), and telling the truth about the absolute intolerance and commitment to violence of that supposed religion. The purpose of the film is to expose the true nature of their teachings and objectives and to change political culture to actually deal with it instead of pretending it doesn't exist. I don't advocate violence, but US citizens shouldn't be a victim of it either. So when do Muslims have to start taking accountability for their actions? Hmmm??? you're so naive....
Ivy, you're right on the money. For the record xtians are also responsible for thousands of years of violence. Need we recall witch trials, the inquisition, the massacres that still takes place to this day in Africa, etc. etc.??
I will be more vocal on condemning extremist Christians when an extremist Christina commits mass murder or storms our embassy and murder innocent people. Until them I reserve my condemnation for the savages who deserve it.
Candle, what about that mass murderer in Europe who was christian? What about the KKK? What about George W Bush? What about the Army of God? What about the past 1500 years of oppression and slaughter of non-christians by people acting in accordance to the christian god?
IOKIYAchristian strikes again.
@Alverant - so you don't have an example in the last 10 years for a Christian that did it specifically to further Christianity or because Christianity was insulted?
You talk about people that happened to be Christian but they don't even claim to have done things for Christian specific reasons, aside from the Army of God. Weak argument.
Mark,
It's the exact same thing you're accusing the Muslims of doing. Don't you see, you're saying Islam in general and all Muslims want to take over the world and are violent, etc. You're statements are ignorant. You ask why don't the moderate Muslims speak out against it, etc. In fact, there was quite a large gathering of Muslims protesting in Libya apologizing and showing support for America. You wouldn't know that, though, as you don't seek out information, you just have it spoon fed. This is an opportunity for Christians who claim not to be divisive and hateful to stand up against a militant-Christian, far right version of Islamic history and say, no we're don't stand up for that in this country. Yes, people have a right to say it, but it doesn't reflect our values or beliefs. But instead, you make excuses. You're as apathetic as you claim moderate Muslims are and are too blind to see it.
@Jed7 is correct. As a Muslim, I can honestly say that most non-Miuslims would never understand the relationship that Muslims have with the prophet Muhammad (pbuh). This is not a knock against anyone's faith or religion. Muslims would also never represent even in simple picture form any of the Prophets (Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah, et al). You would also never hear a Muslim saying bad things about any of these prophets or even others such as Krishna, Ram, Bhudda, etc., We may disagree with their scriptures, but we also believe that every nation was sent a messenger by God and that those messages were lost or corrupted over time. The problem in the Middle East is more about land and power. Extremist on all sides uses religion as a tool to stir up sentiments because they know that their message will appeal to the people who are disenfranchised in these countries. It's musch like how certain politicians would lay loss of Jobs on Immigrants from Latin America or high oil prices on imported oil from Middle East (Less than 20% of out oil comes from the Middle East). It's easy targets and it gets them elected. All that said, those who killed the 4 Americans, should be brought to trial when found guilty, face the maximum punishmet allowed by law.
Christians are not bringing up their children to be "Warriors for the Lord" for nothing. The kids think they will be in Gods army and will cut off the heads of the nonbelievers (obviously more christian pop culture than the bible there). They have their own flag and at one high school graduation that I attended, they projected their flag on a screen then thought the better of it and put the American flag up first.
The next generation of christians or to be fair, militant fundies, are going to be very agressive and will try to institute a theocracy if their elders fail . They have to prepare the world to be fit for the coming of the Lord. The penalty for saying "there is no God" will be death. I kid you not.
After reading several articles about this movie maker and the trouble he has gotten himself into in the past he is certainly not the most upstanding person on the block ...with that said however I still watched all 7 of the trailer clips on utube and if I was a muslim and thank God I am not nor never will be I could see how some of the scenes could be considered offensive to muslims however certainly not serious enough to go awol and burn and American flag and go on a American killing spree ...this movie did not cause that...for those who say it did is simply bad and inaccurate journalism and those behind that story have an agenda to take away our right to criticize Islam which we should never give up...the movie itself whether considered offensive or not told the truth about the prophet and sometimes the truth hurts...if someone decides to go on a killing spree it is because they can't stand how we live in the west....they do not like our freedoms and will do whatever it takes to bring us down to their level and on that I say Kiss My Ass…Loser
In this Country we just had a mass shooting at a Sikh temple by a man with a Celtic Cross tattooed on his arm. He killed more people that these extremist Muslims did. There is some evidence that he may have mistaken Sikhs for Muslims. I do not blame all Irish Catholics for this mans stupidity. Extremists come in all colors and stripes.
.00001 percent of other religions may be extreme and do not represent the religion. A majority of Muslims are extreme and it defines their religion.
HUGE DIFFERENCE!
There are 1.3 billion muslims in this world. There are estimated to be 6% that are fundamentalists and approximately 15 million "extremists". So approximately 1.2% of muslims are extremists.
AND... WE will actually bring the perp to justice... not la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la in the streets to celebrate him.... there's the REAL difference.... we, as a culture, don't condone murder....
AND... WE will actually bring the perp to justice... not la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la in the streets to celebrate him.... there's the REAL difference.... we, as a culture, don't condone murder....
Where did you get that from? CAIR.
Name the powerful heads of their religion. They are all on our most wanted list.
Where are the peaceful marches, where are the peace loving ones fighting against the other factions?
You can't point to anything except a meaningless stat.
Almost everything you said was wrong. One man committed the crime at the Sikh temple and he was dealt with as a criminal. His act was reviled by a majority of Americans and no one from a church pulpit praised his act of murder. By contrast muslim's have killed millions of their own people in our lifetime not to mention the murder of 3000 innocent people on 9-11 and all those that came after. Muslims praise such acts, endorse them from their holy sites and train still more murderers in the name of "peace". And when a small number do speak out it is in a whisper, and half hearted with a focus on making excuses for why as muc has for condemning the action.
If you looked for it, you would see that Muslims do speak out against it all the time. There was a large gathering in Libya apologizing for their counterparts and supporting America. Just because you didn't know about it, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You have to do more than sit back and let people tell you what you should believe and blindly follow.The same can be said, by the way, for Christians in many instances, such as this video, who don't speak out against it as it does not exemplify Christian values, in any great number. They just sit back and eithe don't say anything, or make excuses for it. In this country, many Christians are trying to take over our governement and legislate morality and make laws in tune with their beliefs. You're okay with that?
They've already denounced the actions of all parties involved,they want other Muslims to ignore it:
"We urge that this ignorant attempt to provoke the religious feelings of Muslims in the Arabic-speaking world be ignored and that its extremist producers not be given the cheap publicity they so desperately seek. Those who created this trashy film do not represent the people of America or the Christian faith. The only proper response to intentional provocations such as this film is to redouble efforts to promote mutual understanding between faiths and to marginalize extremists of all stripes.”
I agree with them 100%. It was a trashy attempt at cheap publicity, no doubt conjured by a very juvenile mind. the best thing we can do is just ignore it and go on with our lives.
You decide, who do we kill for this? Bomb them all? Where do we start? Who do we kill first?
Jed7 -
When are you calling the press conference and speaking out? I'm sure you can raise a large number to promote peace and harmony and let the ME know we don't support this film.
"They just sit back and eithe don't say anything, or make excuses for it."
You want to criticize, but I son't see you doing anything.
A stupid movie caused this violence? You only kid yourself and your flock of nitwits if you believe that garbage. Those of this ilk don't need a "spark" to kill us. THEY HATE US. Despite 4 yrs of the endless apologies from your ilk They STILL HATE US. How stupid are you people??
"My" grapevine tells me the person making this film WAS Jewish. He suckered some not so bright radicals to promote it. Just a lame excuse for what is going on right now--Sounds like a followup for 9-11 to me. Media is again laying blame where it does not belong.
I don't know, Lilly.
If he was Jewish, don't you suppose the production value and quality would be higher?
I mean they do run the media, right? /s
hambone -- too funny. They couldn't get a top name Jews like the Reiners, so they got some schlub from the valley.
Come on guys, give Llilly White a break, it took her awhile to figure it all out. She may even get points on the back end
Lilly,
Have you heard the news?
Not a Jew at all.
Your grapevine looks a bit withered.
The way I saw this was...
Muslim: We are a peaceful people.
Christian: Your prophet sucks!
*Muslims resort to violence that kills an amassador*
Yeah, and I'm the king of England.
Should it be any wonder as to why people hate Muslims?
You act like christians are a whole lot better. People who insult christianity also get threatened yet the vast majority of christians either do nothing or support those threats.
There is a big difference, Alverant, between a few crazy Christians threatening and sometimes killing people who insult them and whole masses of Muslims ripping buildings down and blowing crap up...most of who never even saw what apparently offended them. They just followed the herd. To compare the two is disingenuous and seeks to mitigate a huge problem with these people in the Middle East.
Chicago has a violence problem. 20+ people are getting killed there every weekend. If I live in Portland and say, "Gee, that's ridiculous. They really need to get that under control". Your argument would be, "Well, Portland has people who get shot sometimes". Okay, while it doesn't make it okay that some people get shot in Portland, it also doesn't change the fact that CHICAGO is the place with the real problem. This is equivalent to your logic.
Freedom of speech does not cover words intended to incite violence.
Muslims behind defaming their own religion, nothing new. Any excuse to spill blood.
Radical Christians spreading hate. Backed up by moderate christians who tell us gays are sinners, birth control is bad, staying in a bad marriage is good, leaving a bad marriage is bad, having children you can't take care, don't want is good, not having children and still having intimacy is bad. We keep asking "Why don't miderate Muslims speak up against radical Muslims who spread hate and war. I ask the same thing: Why don't moderate Christians speak up against radical Christians who spread hate and war. Silence = OK. The louder they speak, the louder we need to speak. They have a right to free speech. We do too.
Bill, I am Christian, grew up Catholic and I despise the catholic Church and I am for gay marriage.
The leaders of these churches are not promoting violence and killing innocent people.\
How do you not see a difference?
They do every day in every way. So there really is a big difference. And last time I checked, after the Last Temptation of Christ insulted the faith of Christians around the world there were a few protests,. some boycotts and hurt feelings but no one actually murdered anyone, the Church did not call for the murder of the film makers and no public buildings were attacked in protest. Today, right now in the real world the worst Christian is ten time more decent than the best Muslim.
livingbarefoot
The leaders of these churches are not promoting violence and killing innocent people.
Yes they are. They are encouraging the dehumaization of them and promoting taking away their rights.
And again, you're generalizing that the whole population believes and supports a group of extremists, but refuse to believe that it doesn't represent the VAST majority. The same thing goes for extremist Christians. Yes, some do kill people because of their beliefs, but they don't represent most Christians.
I will respectfully differ with you on this one.
We have soldiers over there fighting for America who are Muslim. They give of themselves, volunteered to take up arms for their country and its people, and many have paid the ultimate sacrifice.
Then on the other side of the coin you have Westboro Baptist Christians picketing soldiers' funerals, thus disrespecting the dead who have given their lives so they could have the freedom to picket said funerals.
I will take a Muslim Armed Forces servicemember over one of the Westboro Baptist folks ANY DAY.
Wonder who supports bombing so called "abortion clinics"?
Verbal violence and oppression is just as destructive to life. Just not to property. Fundamentalist might not kill the body, but they sure as hell kill the soul.
Amanda, do you mean like Maj. Hussein at Fort Hood. Ya, we get you. Keep smoking the hooka under your burka. Good try!!
EXTREMIST "Christians" and EXTREMIST "Muslims" remind me of my little brothers fighting: "My god's better than YOUR god" (tongues sticking out) "Na na na na na na!"
Grow up please! Your ignorance and egotistical self-righteousness is holding all us humans from evolving into something better.
Maxwell, your repeating yourself. We got your self rightous gargeon. We know your clued in, and you we're the cool brother when you guys were fighting. Got it!! I like the human part, and your evolving, Very cool!!! Dude
Thank you!
BTW: thanks for the "self-righteous" "cool brother"personal insults too! YOU PROVED MY POINT!
I really get tired of having to repeat myself but so many so-called Christians refuse to practice what they preach--it's amazing that they claim to love & follow Jesus and then refuse to love their neighbor, turn the other cheek or do unto others as they would be done to.
Can you tell me why? Is ignorance really bliss? Because I prefer to know the truth--even if it contradicts a personal belief that I held in error.
TPack--BTW how do you know I was not the "cool sister"? You don't know me or my gender. But that didn't stop you from assuming you know my childhood history--and your subtle sarcasm and personal putdowns of me as a result, now did it?
See what assumptions and ignorance can spawn? And yet will you admit your mistake?
TPack: " We got your self rightous gargeon. "
I know what self-righteousness means (mispelled) but I'm ignorant of the term "gargeon?" What does it mean? Please enlighten me.
It is time for the western world to wake up and stop Islam.
Stopping immigration from Mu-s-lim countries has nothing to do with terror. Each country has the right to determined it's future and characteristics. There are hundred of millions of Mu-s-lims that will be glad to come to the west. If the current trend continues; within a short period of time the west will be colonized by Mu-s-lims. A country has the right to have a selective immigration policy. A country has the right to preserve its nature.
You're displaying the bigoted, hateful, ignorance that drove the "anit-Jewish" mentality of the Nazis in Germany.
I'm pretty sure you won't suit up and go on that christian crusade you seem to advocate...your kids will probably sit it out too
Yes. The nation must defend it's precious bodily fluids ( Doctor Strangelove).
Anyone watching the live video of
Protestersterrorists clashing with security forces near the US Embassy in Cairo?I have a question. Why are they waving black flags?
Good question.
Good question. I haven't seen that before so it must have something to do with their "revolution". It's been called a muslim flag but I don't think so.
Our government should first spend it's time and resources hunting down the bigots that produced this film and hence the anger it has generated. Don't blame the Muslim extremists , first blame the originator of the terror, the film makers.
Religion in my opinion has become the real terrorists and the source of world discord. We have enough hate without religion contributing to it.
Find these mindless, intolerant bigots and punish them with much fanfare so that the world See's we truly are a a country based on principles we can believe in.
and as an after thought , tell Mitt Romney to shut is stupid mouth
Screw you, blaming the movie. What childish thinking.
RDBminus: Go ahead and list those movies. If you can list more than 2 movies that actually portray Christ in a negative light (instead of supposedly portraying Christ in a negative light ... as claimed by people who have never seen them or who deliberately misunderstand the point), I'll eat my hat.
Put up or shut up.
Principles like ignoring the 1st amendment because we are afraid of how other countries extremists will react?
How liberal of you, ban the 1st amendment when you dont like what has to be said, i think the 3rd reich just might have a position open for you.
There have always been limitations on freedom of speech and inciting violence is one of them!
There are multiple places to lay the blame here. The @!$%#s who made the movie, for being @!$%#s and deceiving people into participating in the movie, and the people attacking our embassies, for demanding that our government should be like theirs and stifle the free and protected speech of our citizens to protect their sensitive little feelings. We are not going to do that, and they need to suck it up.
The people who killed our ambassador were militants, waiting for a reason to murder people. The makers of the movie gave them that reason.
Exactly.
It's what you do that matters, not whose Name you do it in!
Has anyone noticed how many more Muslim extremists there are than Christian or Jewish extremists? The Muslims are intolerant of ANY other religions, so Jewish or Christian 'extremists' seem to get more press, just because there are fewer of them.
The difference is the 1 in a million of the other religions is extremist, for Muslims this is mainstream.
lvingbarefoot,
Your ignorance is astounding! Read, inform yourself, educate yourself, meet people of the Muslim faith, get over yourself! There are over a billion Muslims, so 6% of that number is a lot, but far, far, far, from the majority or the "mainstream."
Here's what the Muslim community worldwide has been saying:
"This film really is cheap. It's low quality, low rate, and it really should've been ignored," said Dawud Walid with the Council on American Islamic Relations. "It's just a shame that in Libya that there's a small group of violent people who have escalated a situation. We don't like the contents of the film at all, but the last prophet of Islam, Muhammad, taught us that we're supposed to repel evil with righteousness and good behavior," he continued. "Prophet Muhammad would not sanction the wanton violence or the death of any innocent people."
Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh (Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama):
"Hijacking Planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that can not be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts."
Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan:
"It is wrong to kill innocent people. It is also wrong to Praise those who kill innocent people."
Abdullah II, King of Jordan and descendent of the Prophet Muhammad:
"What these people stand for is completely against all the principles that Arab Muslims believe in."
From CAIR Canada, a Canadian Muslim group;
"Islam respects the sacredness of life, and rejects any express statement or tacit insinuation that Muslims should harm innocent people. Despite our disagreement with certain American policies, we must never abuse the concept of Jihad to target innocent civilians."
"Jihad, which literally means 'struggle,' has an internal, societal and combative dimension. The internal dimension of Jihad encompasses the struggle against the evil inclinations of the self, and the spiritual project to adorn the self with virtues such as justice, mercy, generosity and gentleness. The societal dimension includes struggling against social injustice and creating a communal identity based on charity, respect and equality. Finally, the combative aspect of jihad is only to be used as self-defense against aggression or to fight oppression, and, even then, to be observed with strict limits of conduct that preserves the life of innocents and the sanctity of the environment. Moreover, this latter type of Jihad can only be declared by a legitimate, recognized religious authority."
"Using the concept of Jihad to justify harming the innocent is contrary to the letter and spirit of Islam. We condemn any violence that springs from this misguided interpretation."
From Muqtedar Kahn, Asst Professor of Political Science, Adrian College:
"Militias like the Taliban have allowed their hate for the West to override their obligation to pursue the welfare of their people."
"The culture of hate and killing is tearing away at the moral fabric of the Muslim society. We are more focused on 'the other' and have completely forgotten our duty to Allah."
"Islam is not about defeating Jews or conquering Jerusalem. It is about mercy, about virtue, about sacrifice and about duty. Above all it is the pursuit of moral perfection. Nothing can be further away from moral perfection than the wanton slaughter innocent people."
Imam Kutty from Jami Mosque:
"Let us make no mistake about it: Today, Muslims have no enemy greater than fanatics in their midst...Let us know that fanaticism is ignorance; it is nothing but sickness and bigotry; let us know that fanaticism is opposed to both scripture and reason...We Muslims therefore condemn these barbaric attacks against innocent people."
"We condemn them unconditionally; we condemn them because it is opposed to reason and revelation. It is contrary to the fundamental principles of Islam which teach the sanctity of life. Make no mistake about it, we Muslims cannot be Muslims unless we affirm the sanctity of life in all forms."
"Let every Muslim know that there is no room in Islam for fanaticism, for hatred, for racism, for terrorizing innocent people, for indiscriminate killing, even in a state of war."
"Let us Muslims shoulder our responsibility in this crisis facing our society by distancing ourselves from all those who have perpetrated such a heinous and dastardly crime. I appeal to every Muslim to cooperate with the authorities in bringing the culprits to justice. Let no Muslim harbor such criminals in their midst; doing so is violating the laws and values that we cherish dearly in our religion.
And here's reaction from the rest of the world:
Western leaders expressed unanimous shock at killings that France's President Francois Hollande called an "odious crime".
German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said: "Nothing can justify violence". Italy's Prime Minister Mario Monti praised the Libyan government for speaking out against the violence.
Russia's Foreign Ministry said: "We decisively condemn all attacks on foreign diplomatic representations and their employees as manifestations of terrorism that can have no justification."
At the United Nations, Under-secretary General for Political Affairs Jeffrey Feltman told the Security Council at a briefing: "The United Nations rejects defamation of religion in all forms, but there is no justification for violence such as occurred in Benghazi."
Libyan Deputy Prime Minister Mustafa Abu Shagour joined the condemnation of the killings. "I do condemn the cowardly act of attacking the U.S. consulate and the killing of Mr. Stevens and the other diplomats," he said in a message on Twitter.
"What happened at the U.S. embassy in Cairo is regrettable and rejected by all Egyptian people and cannot be justified, especially if we consider that the people who produced this low film have no relation to the (U.S.) government," Prime Minister Hisham Kandil said, reading out a statement.
"We ask the American government to take a firm position toward this film's producers within the framework of international charters that criminalize acts that stir strife on the basis of race, color or religion."
Even the Vatican has weighed in on it:
The Vatican in Rome said the violence showed the need to respect religions and avoid insulting believers.
"The serious consequences of unjustified offence and provocations against the sensibilities of Muslim believers are once again evident in these days," the Vatican's chief spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi said in a statement.
Lombardi said respect for the beliefs, texts, outstanding figures and symbols of religions was "an essential precondition for the peaceful coexistence of peoples."
Oh Amanda, don't burst the bubble.
Ya Amanda, what they "say". How about the actions, Tell your BS to Chris Stevens Family, and the 3 other Americans that were killed because your feelings were hurt, or what pride you claim. yeah, nice list, suprised you didn't say the NY times, gave it only 1 star. Sell your BS somehwere else. We know your bummed . Liked it better when it was reported that it was made by Israeli, funded by 100 Joooows....
TPACK: So when facts get in the way of your ignorance--all you have to do is close your eyes & ears stubbornly and say: "la la la la!"
1st you ask for examples of "good" Muslims--then, when the facts are provided--you refuse to believe the facts. You are EXACTLY like the fundamentalist Muslims you condemn!
Question: Is ignorance really bliss? If not, why do you insist on wallowing in it!
Mathuin: "Has anyone noticed how many more Muslim extremists there are than Christian or Jewish extremists?"
Nope! Because it is not true. Do your own research--don't rely on Fox or Beck & Limbaugh who enjoy stirring up hatred in so-called Christians. There's already another posting on this thread PROVING your statement to be false.
Question: Is ignorance REALLY bliss? If not, why do insist in wallowing in it?
Intolerance is not compatible with freedom. Even in our own neighborhoods we have to overlook a lot of annoying behaviour or we would be calling the police every 5 minutes. Cooler heads in Egypt are saying that to the protesters now. They are saying something to the effect that " if you continue to be distracted by these things ( the movie) we will lose our revolution." In other words " stop and think." It's good advice for everyone.
Nate Silverman did a pole ?
Maxwell's,
Have you ever spent time in a Muslim country? Regardless of what some Muslim leaders say now, and regardless of the millions of Muslim who would not resort to physical violence, there is a significant portion who are extreme in thought and/or action. The "moderates" provide a breading group for more Muslims, hence a greater proportion of extremists.
The major error in your thinking is the assumption that all religions are equal. Not true. You accuse others of being ignorant, but seem to possess loads of it.
Mawell -
Fact: between 9/1101 and 9/11/11 there were an estimated 25,000 deaths worldwide attributed to Muslim terrorists.
Maybe you can equate that to Christian terrorism, but follow your own advice and do the research.
Is indoctrination REALLY bliss?
There are FANATICAL FACTIONS in all religions.
as for 9/11 well most would not accept the truth at face value but can you accept the following?
majority of the so called highjackers were SAUDI not Iraqi Not Afghani
7 of those blamed are still alive
Would yo concider the attacks on the WTC another PEARL HARBOR?
what would you do if you watched a tv show dating march 4th 2001 that depicted air planes flying into the twin towers?
or what would you do if you found out that NORAD was in the process of a drill that depicted airplanes crashing into the twin towers on 9/11/2001?
Well it did happen but because of the facts you will call me a nutcase
articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-13/news/31161776_1_fbi-agent-fbi-documents-terror-attacks
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1559151.stm
youtube.com/watch?v=inuo5rfYAHs
ironically on 9/11 NORAD was practice drills which included a serino that terrorists were using airplanes as weapons. just after the 9/11 attackes Condi Rice come on television saying that no one had thought about anyone using airplanes as weapons, yet the Bush administration was running drills on that same serino on the very same day of the attacks?
usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-04-18-norad_x.htm
and just before bush cheney took office Cheney himself was running an organization along with Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, jeb bush, I. Lewis Libby,, called The PROJECT FOR A NEW AMERICAN CENTURY.
and issued a publicantion called Rebuilding americas defenses which states pg 63 of the publication ,
Ironically again issued in September of 2000.
Further, the process of transformation,even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor.
newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
Incidentlly on march 4th 2001 the new tv series THE LONE GUNNMEN pilot for the series involved a terrorist attack using airplanes to crash into the twin towers
youtube.com/watch?v=iRtqQLMAZek
now why was America attacked? and by whom?
Nate Silverman did a poll? Disregard my misspelling above. Shows you where the hell my mind was.
Scott,
Tom Clancy used a Boeing 747 crashing into the State of the Union Address as a plot device in a novel published in 1996.
If "No one ever considered that airplanes could be used as weapons", then that administration was asleep at the switch . . .
Send him HOME!! That should wrap this up in a nice karma sandwich for this scumbag...
Religious fundamentalists are a big problem in society. They radiate hatred. If they reject science and reason, what place do they have in a civilized world?
RDBminus100IQ, do us all a favor and look up "No True Scotsman" please.
RDB, I found a book titled Beyond Opinion, by Ravi Zacharias, but not one titled Beyond Opinion.
Opps, I mean Beyond Theology.
Good now that's settled. An American practicing his free speech who has been roundly condemned by a vast majority of Americans made a film. So please go ahead muslim's, murder a few more people. But by all means keep trying to tell the world that you are all just peace loving decent people with only a few bad apples... Nothing but the worst sort of savages.
Since when are threats covered by free speech?
What threat? it was a cheap movie, shown in a theater even.
The Muslims can condemn, criticize and blow the hell out of Christians everyday who try to live as Christians in their land. They are on a mission to wipe out anyone who is Christian. Christens have no freedom over there, while over here we welcome Muslims with open arms allowing them the freedom of their religion and allow them to build their mosque. Saying here's our country take it over. As far as movies go there have been many that portrayed Jesus pretty much the same way. Christians don't go out shooting and killing people because of it. Some people call themselves Christians even when they are not. I dare say even the true Christians are not on the side of this Jones guy, nor are they going to go out and kill someone because of the movies that have been negative toward God or Jesus. They, however condemn what Jones and people like him stands for. Hardly anyone, especially the Christians knew this movie even existed, until now. The Muslims were just looking for an excuse to kill and stir things up.
Deb- where are these true christians? I don't see true muslims or true christians disavowing any of this but at least the muslims have the excuse of facing heavey retribution.
It seems to me that we need new laws defining the spreading of hate propaganda as a crime, plus legal guidelines as to when criminal charges may apply. People like Steven Klein, Terry Jones, and "Sam Bacile" (whoever he may be) should not be able to hide behind the First Amendment. When you broadcast hate propaganda with the forseeable result of encouraging riots and bllodshed, you clealy forfeit your First Amendment rights.
I cannot believe what I am seeing here. Restrict our first amendment rights because some savage fanatic might get offended. You have got to be kidding. Oh I get it, you were being sarcastic but if you were not. Then by all means move to any of the countries that are now burning and see just how long you freaking last. You make me sick as well as all your PC friends. STFU!!
RDBminus100IQ, actually if Jesus was god then Jesus IS a pedophile and murderer. The "virgin" Mary was less than 12 years old when God knocked her up (without her conscent I might add) and this is the same "merciful" god who sent wild animals to brutally murder dozens of children because a few of them teased a bald man.
Imagine what would happen in the US if someone made a movie about how the christian religion is based off a brutal, evil god.
But PHIL-MUSE would undoubtedly give a pass to Bill Maher, Janeane Garofalo, etc, etc, etc.
Laws limiting free speech... hmm, why don't you just move to a Muslim country... where they DON'T have a 1st Amendment....
Skip N. The film was redubbed perhaps in Farsi which the Arabs do not speak, the Iranians speak Farsi. It was redone in Arabic which all Arabs speak at least a version of. But the people who did this film are Christian and Jewish extremists and from most accounts not very good film makers.
The problem as I see it are not new laws preventing free speech here. But if a provocative movie is made and I believe it was made to stir the pot, the maker should have the courage to stand up and defend their production rather than have others be the brunt of violence while they sit in the comfort and safety that our country affords them.
Any time you go to a foreign country, you take a big risk. I am sure these people at the Embvassy were aware of the risk. Dont stick your hand in the crack if you dont know what is in there.
How about Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Louis Farrakhan?
We have to really evaluate if we should be there in the first place, and if that answer is no then lets close the embassy down along with giving aid to these countries. The government of that country should have protected our personnel and moved them to a safe area. it is a crying shame that we lost 4 of our own that were trying to help this country move forward and what this shows it has moved backwards.
The real issue in leaving these countries is that we are addicted to their oil, therefore we have embassys to make nice with them.
While I know some very sophisticated Arabs and Iranians here in the US, having gone to college with many, as an observer of the people I see on the news, they appear to have a stone age mentality and no sense of humor or control. The combination of those traits in a world that is so different from them is pretty disgusting.
WE have plenty of oil in Alaska and Offshore, however, Obama's administration doesn't want us to drill!