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Subscribe to RSSThe debate over whether to give British police officers guns has been reignited following the killing of two unarmed officers, who authorities believe may have been lured to their deaths in an ambush by a suspected double killer.
Police constables Fiona Bone, 32, and Nicola Hughes, 23, were shot dead after responding to a hoax call about a burglary in the northern English city of Manchester. A grenade was also thrown during the attack.
Greater Manchester Police Chief Constable Peter Fahy said that it appeared to have been “an act of absolutely cold-blooded murder. It's almost impossible to fathom such an evil act."
The suspect, Dale Cregan, 29, handed himself into a local police station after the shootings on Tuesday.
The Telegraph newspaper reported Cregan had been arrested on suspicion of murdering a man called Mark Short in June, but was then released on bail as police investigated and went into hiding. Cregan is also suspected of killing Short’s father David in August.
Police officers in the U.K. do not routinely carry guns, but armed response units can be called to incidents involving firearms.
'Beggars belief'
Darren Rathband, the twin brother of Constable David Rathband who killed himself 18 months after he was shot and blinded by a gunman in July 2010, called for British officers to be given guns, The Guardian newspaper reported.
"It beggars belief. How many officers need to die before the powers realize that it is the 21st century and you cannot fight crime with an outdated piece of plastic [U.K. police's truncheon] and a bit of spray?,” he said. “…I am angry some other families have now lost a daughter, sister, mother or wife and it makes me angry that the thin blue line is getting thinner and thinner."
Paul Beshenivsky, widower of Police Constable Sharon Beshenivsky, who was shot dead in 2005, told ITV News that it was time to give firearms to police.
“I think police, in honesty, should be armed,” he said. “I think something more should be done for the safety of officers.”
He said his wife’s death had been talked about for several years after she was killed but then had been “sort of slightly forgotten.”
Read more on this story from ITV News
Sir Hugh Orde, president of the U.K.’s Association of Chief Police Officers, told ITV News that the murders were a “stark reminder” of the risks police officers faced.
“I don’t think there’s any desire from the [police] service, top to bottom, quite frankly for a routinely armed police service,” he said, noting that armed officers were available to respond when needed.
“Whilst this is an awful week for the service, fortunately these events are very rare still,” he added.
Life in prison 'an equal deterrent'
Asked whether the death penalty should be brought back in the U.K. for police killers, Orde said he was not in favor of the idea.
“I think if an officer is shot on duty … anyone convicted should go to prison and never come out,” he said. “I think that’s an equal deterrent and more fitting to our current culture.”
And Britain’s Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg, a Liberal Democrat, warned against a “rush to instant judgments.”
"We have a long tradition in this country, which is a great tradition, of policing in the community, of the police being part of the public and the public supporting and giving their consent to the police,” he said Wednesday, according to The Guardian newspaper.
"I think if we were, in an instant to, in a sense, arm our police to the teeth so they become separate from the public, that would be quite a big change, which would have considerable risks attached to it,” he added.
NBC News' partner ITV News and Reuters contributed to this report.
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Leave a Comment:
Bobby: "Stop! Or I'll ..... ..... ..... throw something at you."
As funny as that is, they don't need guns, they need body armor. A gun isn't going to stop a police officer from getting shot. Police officers with guns still get shot and they still die.
journal, I was thinking the same thing. There are cops killed here by the dozens every year and they're all armed. In fact, I sometimes think they get a little trigger happy, look at what happened in New York a few weeks ago where so many bystanders were shot.
There is no perfect solution to this situation. Don't arm them they die, arm them they die.
58 murders per year by firearms in Britain... 8,755 per year in the U.S. This, with the U.K. population at 60 million and the US population at 300 million.
Do the math. They don't need guns. They don't need our problems.
We can tout our documents that give the militia "a right to bear arms" all we want, but it's hardly been the solution to stopping our nation's gun violence. The U.K.
I think, it is noble, that some British citizens, and police, would like to continue the tradition of unarmed police officers. Unfortunately, modern society doesn't allow that civilized response to crime. Maybe, Brits, it is time to arm all of your police officers.
Noble, but foolish. What should be the civilized response to uncivilized behavior? In my house, it will be to call the authorities to come get them and give them a proper burial.
Whatever you do, don't give guns to citizens or the UK will end up like us...
Jim Johnson-767323
Excuse me, but the article proves that when a CRIMINAL wants to acquire firearms, all the laws that can be made will never stop them.
Oh, and did you not notice a grenade was also used? I don't know any places where they can be found legally. Do you?
It says they officers were shot. that would be very misleading of the press but i would be suprised. i dont understand lefties who think making guns illegal will help. Last time i checked drugs were illegal and we have local, state and even entire federal agencies devoted to enforcing them yet anyone can go find anything they want.
Statistically speaking, gun violence in the U.K. is at a RIDICULOUS low. And they're right next to Europe--if theirs was a culture of guns, incidents involving firearms and explosives would be far more prevalent than they are, and the shipping of such things back and forth would be unstoppable. But that isn't the case. We, on the other hand--with two major borders--cannot control guns within our own country nor stop them from coming up from South America/Mexico.
One tragic incident is not reason enough to revolutionize and change their culture to one of such violence as ours.
So, where were the "armed officers (who) were available" when these two officer were murdered?
Another instance of the police being minutes away when seconds count.
If NBC had reported this better they would have given a clearer picture of what happened.
The incident that these two officers were responding to was that a house had been burgled and the perpetrator had long since left the premises: so it was supposedly the householder calling the police after the threat had gone. It was a trap.
The reports are that they entered the property and a grenade was thrown at them as soon as they were in a confined space: then they were shot 10+ times.
Even if they'd been armed they wouldn't have known there was a threat until it was upon them. They wouldn't have had time to draw any firearm.
In the UK, it is almost unheard of for burglars to be armed with firearms.
The British, by themselves, are a very civilized lot...and this policy makes sense and largely works. Unfortunately, they, like many in Europe, have welcomed into their midst a growing group from the middle east who are neither civilized, nor tolerant of others' views. Having lived near Edgware Road in Central London for several years I was apalled by the July 2005 London Tube bombing (along with the double-decker bus) carried out by these 'guests' of the UK. France is also learning a harsh lesson in intolerance from its muslim citizens who neither embrace French culture nor have any intention of assimilating into French society. These immigrent groups have hostile intent, make no bones about it, and will overwhelm their adopted countries if given the chance. Naive and silly ideas from the past will simply hasten the downfall......Sir Hugh needs to wake up and smell the roses while there is still time.
A strange argument given that the man who is held for shooting these officers is white and was involved in a long standing gang war between two criminal families in Manchester which has been going on for several decades - all of whom are white. I'm not sure what connection this has to immigration.
I say, put down that firearm or I shall smite you upon the snout with my truncheon. There's a good chap.
STOP!!! .... I SAID STOP! or I'll say stop again!! They don't want to bury anymore police than we do(USA), but they won't give the tools to do the job & still get home alive. It's time for you to wake up from your little dream. It's 2012 not 1912 they should @ least carry tasers.
They do carry tasers - the ones with the electrodes on wires. And CS and pepper sprays. They also wear stab vests.
Sure, Why arm the police and take away the criminal's advantage...................DUH
How many more Police and innocent people have to be killed before the UK realizes what idiotic fools they are sending unarmed Police personnel in arms way.
As a previous commenter makes clear: the UK has one of the firearm death figures in the world. 58 last year - in a population of 62 million; compared to nearly 9,000 for the US which only has a population five times the size.
The total number of homicides (of all kinds) in the UK is at historically low levels: well under 1,000 per year - one of the lowest in the world.
There have been 16 police officers killed in the line of duty in the last decade: 6 shot; 3 stabbed; 5 in road traffic accidents (including a prison van crashing and a police pursuit vehicle crashing).
There is no epidemic of police-killing across my country.
The number of people killed by the police is similarly very low.
America is awash with firearms and the police are armed and far more innocent people and police die.
I'm glad our Government and police forces refuse to issue guns to every officer. Firstly, there is no need for it as overall gun crime here is dropping - the last lot of statistics released by the government shows that in England and Wales gun crime is down 13% while Scotland is experiencing a decade-long low. Between 2010-2011 England, Scotland and Wales experienced 499 firearm offences, which isn't a lot considering the combined population of these three nations is around 61 million. Police officers being shot is very rare in the UK, since 2005 three police officers in England have been shot and killed, in the last year in Texas six officers have been killed by gunfire - arming your police doesn't necessarily mean they are protected.
Secondly, it would undermine the principle of policing by consent. Robert Peel created the Metropolitan Police with the notion that the force owes its primary duty to the public rather than to the state. Carrying guns is inimical to community policing, which British policing is built upon. British police forces have learnt from the mistakes made in Northern Ireland where the police were armed. One of the common complaints was that giving police officers guns distanced them the community and people didn't like approaching officers with guns.
The culture in this country opposes arming the police and I don't see that changing any time soon.
Luke1986, Tell it to the ever increasing Radical Muslims as they blow your head off and find a 1000 ways to kill you dead. You live in a fantasy world.
Raymond, radical Muslims aren't really much of a threat here, they are by far a minority among our Muslim community - as shown by the marches against extremism following the London attacks and attempted Glasgow bombing. Community policing has been the best deterrent against further attacks as the police, in partnership with Muslim community groups, have successfully removed radical preachers from various mosques and continue to challenge and reduce the influence of extremists.
Also, arming the police in Northern Ireland didn't stop the violence committed by the Irish Nationalist and Irish Loyalist paramilitaries. Aside from the July 7 bombing the biggest perpetrators of terrorist attacks, massacres and police killings in the UK, such as Hungerford, Dunblane, Enniskillen, etc., have been white Christians from Britain or Ireland.
Luke,
While I appreciate your position, it is after-all apparently your country, let me note that firearm violence is also decreasing here in the US also, at least on a per capita basis.
That being said, yes the incidence of firearm violence is relatively low, but what about the other violence that is killing people in Great Britain. It IS increasing, is it not? And please tell me how being murdered by a knife or bat is any different than being murdered by a firearm? The victim is still dead. Or is it just more civilized to kill without a firearm?
Actually the homicide rate here is the lowest its been for 30 years, all violent crime has decreased in recent years. The only crimes increasing are bicycle theft, shoplifting and pickpocketing.
well said luke. We see it all too often here in the USA. Cops on a power trip with their firearm. That being said, there are a lot of good cops here and they face a lot more danger.
Our homicide rates STILL exist in the THOUSANDS. England's homicide rates are below 100.
So... kind of blows holes in the "well, our homicide rates are dropping" argument when there are still a ridiculous amount of people being killed per population.
I believe that last year there were around 950 homicides in the UK - in a population of 62 million that seems rather comforting. It's one of the lowest homicide rates on the planet.
Most criminals in the UK are unarmed (certainly not with firearms): as Luke puts it, 499 firearms offences in total for the 2010-2011 period. This is almost laughably low.
82% of the police don't want firearms (as standard) when last surveyed; the general public don't want armed police. One of the reasons is that arming the police only leads to an 'arms race' with the criminals.
As far as I understand it you're far more likely to survive being stabbed than shot.
In the old days when Britain was a far nicer place than it is now, and we had capital punishment, the police did not need to be armed because few criminals used firearms and the murder rate was a fraction of what it is now. Then political correctness arrived, with its support for criminals, and things went downhill. Now the UK is pretty much a war zone, and the notion of sending unarmed police out to tackle armed criminals is as ludicrous as sending unarmed soldiers out to face the Taliban. Britain is the only country in the so-called civilized world not to have an armed police service, and yet virtually all foreign police officers (with the exception of the Americans) can serve 30-40 years without ever drawing their weapon, let along firing it at someone. Now the reluctance of the British police to be routinely armed is for a completely different reason - it's because it's not politically correct, and our police are the most politically-correct police in the world. We will continue to have an unarmed police service (a) because it's "not British" to carry a gun, (b) because modern British police officers are no longer proper law-enforcers and peacekeepers like other countries' police, and (c) because of (b), 95% of them are psychologically unsuitable to carry firearms, and we'd have to start over with a completely new police service recruited from more suitable candidates. How many more British police have to die unprotected because of 'blue sky thinking' before someone in authority develops the guts to give this country an effective police service where officers on the street have the means, ability and motivation to enforce the law with proper powers and proper equipment? Not in my lifetime, that's for sure.
If only your argument was backed up with anything more than bluster - do you read the Mail or the Telegraph perhaps? ;)
The homicide rate in the UK as was widely reported (I'm assuming you're British) is the lowest for 30+ years.
You conveniently forget the Shepherd's Bush Murders of 1966 - three police officers shot dead when interrupting a gang arming up in preparation for an armed robbery. The death penalty for murder was still on the statute book. After that event there were calls to routinely arm the police as well. (Harry Roberts is still in prison for the murders, you may recall his name.)
In the past decade, 16 police officers have been killed on duty: 6 shot, 3 stabbed, 5 in RTAs (including being in a pursuit vehicle that lost control), 2 collapsed and died.
If you truly believe your part of the UK is a War Zone then I suggest you move to one of the many parts of the country which clearly aren't. But I strongly suspect you don't live on Moss Side but maybe the mossy Cottswolds.
It would be more understandable to not have guns in a laid back place like Tahiti. But face it, Britain is a land in which loutishness and hooliganism is even more commonplace nowadays than in the past.
It would be a real @itch to carry a concealed firearm on the beach.
But one of those thigh holsters on a good bikini body would be a workable!!
I think any police force should be armed; even if it is illegal for the average citizen to carry a gun criminals do not care what is legal, otherwise they would not be criminals. That being said, the British government needs to be aware that arming their police force means that whenever there is an officer involved shooting there will be a group of angry citizens screaming "police brutality" even if the person shot was holding a home full of sweet old grannies hostage and refusing to allow them to take their pills. If you are an officer of the law it does not matter what you do, you will always be in the wrong according to someone, because being willing to give your life to defend others means you must be a jerk.
(For those that are not savvy, I am using the word jerk sarcastically and do not really mean that I think LEO's are jerks, just the opposite, I highly respect anyone that would put their life on the line everyday to make sure that those I love can safely walk down the street and feel that along with paramedics, firemen and teachers, LEO's do not get nearly enough respect or compensation).
Looks like the British are a bunch of stupid a--holes !! Piers Morgan is one of them !!
Fortunately, MOST of them are NOT Piers Morgan!
Hey UK, time to wake up and smell the coffee. You are not only endangering the lives of your PO's but the publics as well. Sure there are pros and cons to giving cops guns, but you really can't have PO's walking around with only a stick, whistle and some spray when the bad guys are walking around with guns; elementary my dear Watson, elementary
If arming cops is safe, why do we have so many killed in the USA. Weapons solve very little, they just appear to make matters worse. i wonder about putting America and civilized in the same sentence when the fact is our culture is so violent.
Why do civilized folks need to be so violent. The UK stands as a model, dont destroy it
The UK may be a "model" but like the USA it is not for consumer goods. The last thing I purchased from the UK says "Irish Whiskey". I hear they have a lot of attacks with knives and bats. The police do not have the right of self-defense and the average person can't even own a .22 target pistol or rifle.
If I told my great-grandparent's ghosts that I thought the UK set good examples to follow, they'd kick my @ss from their graves. If it is, and has been such a good model, why are we even here, with our own flag? Why did people put themselves through hell to leave there just to come here? Maybe they all just thought the UK was too good for them. Pfft good model...ffs
gone4now, if the British model was so terrible why did the American founding fathers adopt English constitutional laws like the Magna Carta (which guarantees a right to due process) and the Bill of Rights of 1689 (which protects freedom of speech) following the Revolution?
Britain isn't perfect (no country is) but there are areas where I feel we are a good model for the rest of the world, just as there are areas where the US is a good model to follow.
Just because a country is considered the best in the world doesn't mean to say there aren't any areas for improvement: why do you think the British moan all the time - it's not because we think it's terrible to live here, it's because we think we could do it better.
I'm rather grateful that I live in a country where I could go to school without pat-down searches for firearms, where I was certain that after going to university I could return to my lodging and that after visiting the cinema I could go home safely.
I'm grateful I live in a country where I feel I can still approach a police officer for directions; where the department of health is at least trying to find a solution to increasing levels of obesity; where after forty years of work my mother got chemo- and radio-therapy which gave her an extra 7 years (it was always to be terminal) without charge; where I get the pills I need to keep my heart going without charge - and that when things have stabilized I can get back to my job. And for many other things for which I think the British are not always sufficiently grateful.
There are problems - as Luke says above no country is perfect - the politicians are terribly shallow, too many roads are crumbling, apprenticeships have dwindled, there's too much outsourcing - but the simple truth is I like living here. And, by and large, I feel safe here - which is something I've not felt in European countries I've visited - helped enormously by the knowledge that very few police or criminals carry firearms.
I love the idea of British Policing. In a more genteel and respectful time it was effective. Even now, it is generally effective. However, what is not discussed is the huge problem of stabbings in the UK. Just because guns are not prevalent does not mean street murders are non-existent. Another thing not discussed is the availabilty of officers with Guns. On the surface the Constabulary remains unarmed...but armed officers are available...quickly ...in large metro areas....and should be.
I forlornly look back to a more genteel time and longingly yearn. But, it is just not to be. I would have to commend the unarmed officer for his/her bravery. I would not want to accept their job unarmed.
While there have been several high-profile spates of stabbings on British streets - there were something like 8 in London a 2 month period a couple of years ago and this was considered a shocking increase - the number of homicides in Britain is at a 30 year low. It is around 950 a year (in a population of 62 million). Most murders happen within the home between people who know each other. Stranger and gang murders are still, thankfully, very rare.
2% of British police are trained to and authorized to use firearms when issued/ necessary.
Police in airports and around major public/state buildings are always heavily armed.
In my 4 decades of life here I can't recall ever seeing an armed officer outside of an airport - even there it was so unusual it was almost exciting.
Police officers do carry an assortment of (non-lethal) items: ASP-type batons, CS or pepper sprays and Tasers (I think they use the version which fire barbs). All of which is illegal for the general public.
It is amazing how ignorant people are, who are suppose to be intelligent. Let's say that a Criminal (who does not care if he is NOT SUPPOSE to have a gun) is going to shoot the person (Politician), who job it is to decide if police should, or should not, have a gun. Does the Politician want the Officer to call for help and wait until someone shows up who has a gun to try and save him, or does he want the Officer to help him right than and there? Anyway, can't do much with stupid. By the way sivungaq, it is not that civilized folks need to be violent, it is that civilized folks need to protect themselves from those who are not civilized. Stats show the more guns, the less crime. You can't argue against the statistics. Well, you can, but you'll still be wrong.
Statistics.
Number of homicides in the UK per 100,000 residents: 1.2
Number of homicides in the US per 100,000 residents: 4.2
Number of firearms in the UK per 100 residents: 6.2
Number of firearms in the US per 100 residents: 88.8
The US has far more homicides and far more guns than the UK: the US has 4 times the homicides and 14 times as many firearms.
As you say you can't argue with statistics: the UK should clearly have more murders or the US should have far less.
Officer Jim Malone in the movie, The Untouchables said it best, "You don't bring a British bobby to a gunfight."
Giving guns to a police force that has largely done without firearms (except for a few special teams) since World War 2 will just mean there are lots of officers out there who don't know how to shoot them. You think the NYPD is dangerous?
Sounds like they have the same problems we have here. The bad guy was charged with murder and then released on bail. That gave him the opportunity to kill two officers.
If you ask me, someone in government should do time along with the killer. The government gave the criminal the opportunity to commit this double murder. Means, motive, opportunity. The killer was probably laughing at the British citizens and their gov for giving him the opportunity to kill more people.
"Police constables Fiona Bone, 32, and Nicola Hughes, 23, were shot dead".
Pardon... "SHOT" dead??????
I thought guns were banned in the UK.......
Heroin and cocaine are banned too but people still take them - doesn't mean they have to be legalized either.
(And not all guns are banned: shotguns and smaller bore rifles are perfectly legal because they are 'working' guns used by farmers, pest control, etc. However, there seems very little need or appetite for the general public to be walking around with assault rifles - this isn't Somalia!)
Grenades are banned too - following your presumed argument, should they be legalized too?
Luke, while I give you credit for being part aof a civilized democracy that can be an example to many nations, and I also strongly agree with your opinion about the need for armed police in the UK, (or the LACK of neccessity, I should say..) However, the Magna Carta only happened because it was FORCED upon the English crown (King John) in 1215 and as of today, only 3 basic parts are still used in the modern form of British Government. (everything else was ratified.) As for the "Bill of Rights" Your referring to, as far as I was aware (As any good American should be.) I was taught OUR revolution didn't occur until 1776, and Constitution adopted as of 1787. If you're referring to the Overthrow of King James II, that was more a "religious coup" to prevent the Catholic Church from gaining a foothold in England through King James II and has little (if anything) to do with Democracy seeing as the Catholics were henceforth persecuted by being denied representation in parliament as well as the right to vote. Granted, most of that has definitely changed, but hardly a good example for "OUR Democracy", wouldn't you say?