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Subscribe to RSSIn renewed unrest, workers in Greece walked off their jobs over austerity measures, while in Spain dozens of protesters clashed with police. NBCNews.com's Dara Brown reports.
Updated at 8:59 a.m. ET: ATHENS, Greece -- Demonstrators wearing helmets and gas masks and armed with sticks clashed with police in the Greek capital on Wednesday, as a general strike was held to protest the government’s austerity drive.
Riot police fought with the protesters wearing the black clothes favored by anarchist groups for about 45 minutes in the central Syntagma Square, letting off tear gas in an attempt to disperse the crowd.
The demonstrators let off flares and a tent in the center of the square advertising an air show was set on fire.
The anarchist group appeared to be trying to cause as much damage in the square as possible.
Yannis Behrakis / Reuters
A Molotov cocktail explodes beside riot police officers near Syntagma Square in Athens on Wednesday.
There were also violent clashes between anti-austerity protesters and riot police in Spain on Tuesday. Police there told The Associated Press that 38 people were arrested and 64 people injured when officers clashed with protesters demonstrating against cutbacks and tax hikes.
Several thousand people converged on the Spanish Parliament building in central Madrid where more than 1,000 riot police blocked off access to the building, forcing protesters to crowd nearby avenues. Police baton-charged protesters at the front of the march and some demonstrators broke down barricades and threw rocks and bottles, the AP said. Reuters reported that police fired rubber bullets.
Spain's economic crisis turns middle-class families into illegal squatters
In Greece, perhaps the country worst-affected by the crisis, workers walked off their jobs for the first general strike since a coalition government was formed in June.
Pablo Blazquez Dominguez / Getty Images
Spanish riot police clash with protesters during demonstrations over the government's austerity policies near the Spanish parliament on Tuesday.
The Greek government is struggling to push through more punishing austerity measures demanded by the country’s creditors.
'Only the beginning'
Initially, Syntagma Square was peaceful as tens of thousands of protesters arrived to the sound of drums. There were many elderly and middle-aged people and mothers with children among the crowd.
The strike was called by the country's two biggest unions that represent half the workforce.
"We call on everyone to take part in the strike and resist the austerity measures that hurt Greek people and the economy," Despoina Spanou, of the ADEDY labor group, said. "This strike is only the beginning in our fight."
'It is virtually impossible to find a job': Brain drain is new Greek tragedy
Much of the union's anger is directed at spending cuts worth nearly $15.55 billion over the next two years that Greece has promised the European Union and International Monetary Fund in an effort to unlock its next tranche of aid.
While Greece gears up for more protests against austerity cuts, the health care system is in tatters with little cash for drugs or doctors. ITV's James Mates reports.
The bulk of those cuts are expected from slashing wages, pensions and welfare benefits, heaping a new wave of misery on Greeks who say repeated rounds of austerity have pushed them to the brink and failed to transform the country for the better.
A survey by the MRB polling agency last week showed that more than 90 percent of Greeks believe the planned cuts are unfair and burden the poor, with the vast majority expecting more austerity in coming years.
Joblessness strikes more young people in Europe's wealthy north
With Greece in its fifth year of recession and no light at the end of the austerity tunnel, analysts warn that Greek patience is wearing thin and a strong public backlash could tear apart the weak conservative-led coalition.
During the protests in Spain Tuesday, people chanted outside the parliament, "Let us in, we want to evict you.”
Evictions have soared in Spain as thousands of people have defaulted on bank loans.
Daniel Ochoa De Olza / AP
Thousands of demonstrators march to the Spanish parliament on Tuesday.
Protesters said they were fed up with cuts to public salaries and health and education. They are also angry that the state has poured funds into crumbled banks while it is cutting social benefits.
PhotoBlog: Spain prepares more austerity, protesters clash with police
"My annual salary has dropped by 8000 euros and if it falls much further I won't be able to make ends meet," Luis Rodriguez, 36, a firefighter who joined the protest, told Reuters. He said he is considering leaving Spain to find a better quality of life.
"We're protesting against the cuts. I've had to give up my apartment," said Ondina, a 30-year-old fine arts graduate who is without a job. She said she can't survive on an unemployment benefit of $340 a month.
Spain's 'Robin Hood' mayor on march, sparks outrage after supermarket heists
With this year's budget deficit target looking untenable, the conservative government is now looking at such things as cuts in inflation-linked pensions, taxes on stock transactions, "green taxes" on emissions or eliminating tax breaks.
Spain, also badly hit by the euro zone debt crisis, has been hit by a second recession since 2009 that has put one in four workers out of a job.
The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.
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I think it is interesting that one of the related video stories is that Greek cuts are causing a health care crisis....at least people in Greece care about that. We have had a health care crisis for years, and most Americans just shrug their shoulders. We allow our government to spend billions to line defense contractors' pockets and yet we just don't care that many of our fellow citizens go without health care because they cannot afford it or go bankrupt due to serious injury or illness. Sad what kind of country we have become.
Don't think this kind of activity won't happen in this country if we continue to pursue a "balanced budget" approach without rethinking the revenue side of the balance sheet. I'm all for balancing the budget, reducing our deficit, and building a strong financial future for this country for generations to come, but we have to approach this responsibly.
European countries are having to reduce their spending drastically while significantly increasing their revenue - mainly because their borrowing costs are so high. The US is not in that same situation presently, and as long as we show progress that we are on a trajectory to reduce our spending and increase our revenue our borrowing costs will continue to remain low.
They are having a health care crisis because socialized medicine is unaffordable and you want to put us in the same place as they are? Are you paying attention to what you just said? Socialized medicine countries are facing the same issues we are and now they have to take back what they've been providing and you want us to add to out debt?
No one, and I mean no one can be denied medical treatment, legally.
needaplan
Both sides are re-thinking revenue. Here's the real problem, our taxing has overshot the curve of effective return. The only thing that can be done to tame this is cut loop-holes, to increase the revenue.
Now, you will see people say that taxes are lower than in previous years. They are right, but they are not considering the cost of regulations. Regulations are additional taxes that can be in the form of fees to the federal government or expenses caused by regulation that businesses pay directly to stay open without adding value to a product.
When you add the cost of regulation in, our taxes are actually the highest they have ever been and if the Bush era cuts are not continued and the ACA is allowed to become fully operational, it will be like taxes on steroids.
The CBO estimates that if all the Bush cuts are allowed to expire, it will cost us 3.5 million jobs. Those jobs are cuts in revenue
The CBO estimates that if the rich tax cuts are discontinued it will cost 700,000 jobs - meaning a revenue reduction.
With every EPA edict there is a cost of jobs given to them. Obama is wanting to shut the coal industry down. That is 10's of thousands of jobs gone and higher energy costs, and also a revenue reduction.
We are duped into doing to much because we fear dirtier air, dirtier water, global warming when we have the cleaner air and water than we have had since the 50's. The only item seriously increasing is Carbon, but it's issues of problems, effects vs benefits are debatable. But because we fear the unknown, we lose more jobs, and more revenue and forget that we caused the problems.
The sum of the regulations put in place in the last 4 years will only effect the environment by for us by very low percentages. The job costs and cuts in revenue are much more substantial.
More jobs is your best source for increasing revenues. Meanwhile cut the over reach so jobs can grow and with it, increase our revenues.
That’s what happens when the hand out mentality takes over the government. These days everyone wants everything, now! The government is quick to oblige. And when things fall apart the result is always the same, the population becomes restless, discontent spreads and people demonstrate, just like in Greece and Spain.
Are we travelling the same path, the path of self destruction?
The difference is that, in this country, the mob of demonstrators will be 1/100 the size. Everybody else will be sitting at home weatching it on their wide screen TV and chatting about it on their laptop.
I invite all of Europe to immigrate to the US. We have tons of jobs that illegals are too lazy to do.
Guess their "living high on the hog and let some other sap take care of the bill" mentality has come back to bite them in the rear, hasn't it? These cradle to grave freeloaders can't believe the party's over, and the gravy train has derailed.
Welcome to Soylent Green!
Technology and the welfare state has caused this. When you create machines to replace man, you take something away from the man. When you can't find jobs because machines have replaced you, you end up on welfare. When more and more are on welfare, there are less to pay the bills. When there is no one left to pay the bills, Soylent Green.
I find it a tell-tale sign that the harsh replies here seem to be parroting the same sort of lingo used by our esteemed republican candidate ("freeloaders" and "socialized" anything).
What I will comment is that I am fortunate to have a great job with great, affordable comprehensive healthcare. I'm no wealthy American - just one of those rare middle class sorts who's begun to achieve the American dream. I say that because I realize thousands of Americans are less fortunate through no fault of their own and do struggle to try to achieve what I've managed. I, for one, am willing to accept a little more taxation - maybe 2, 3, or even 5% annually - if it means all Americans can gain access to reasonable healthcare.
Now, if that's socialism and is something bad - then all of you with children owe me something fierce. My tax dollars have been paying for YOUR children to attend school for years now. Shame on you for being freeloaders of the American public school system!
Karen, you think privatized care is affordable (when your employer doesn't help out)? And how do you explain the other countries who are doing fine with publicly funded health care plans?
Entitlement society meets govt corruption when the money runs out. People who think the govt will take care of you.....this is your future. Pay attention. These Spaniards thought that govt would take care of everything. Govt ruined the economy. You can blame the bankers, the rich or whoever, but it all goes back to CORRUPT POLITICIANS who were bought & paid for and put the laws in place to allow the rich to win. Who owns your politician?
We're $16 trillion in debt and skyrocketing and the rich don't even have enough money to pay for it even if you take it all from them.
And, the anti-gun nuts want you to be defenseless as well. Be careful what you wish for....you just might get it.
Karen; if the over $700 a month I pay to be on Obama/Romeny care is socialist - then what label do you put on people who only pay $200 a month while their employer picks up the rest of the tab? You people who bring home $3500 a month are actually making far more than that by having your welfare employer pay the rest of your bills. Most of you won't even apply for a job that doesn't cover most of your health care.
What is left of the middle class and the upper class, don't want down sized apartments in your community because you say it will devalue your investment - sure, just push out those who have already been devalued as far as they can be. Guess who is next in line to suffer the same fate - what goes around comes around.
People can't even live communallybecause no contractors are allowed to build communal type housing, every code the local governments make are one size must fit all - narrow minds run us. The second you say the word communal - the "oh my gawd socialism and communism nazis are after us" crowd comes out - fear freaks are worse than dictators.
What a greedy disgusting world when money comes before life and health wonder who really is running it
Too bad Americans cant see that BIG RED FLAG waiving and will foolishly vote for Obama again...and wonder why we are in the same boat!
Eventually, you run out of other peoples money!
WASHINGTON, DC: The White House just confirmed... because of our massive National Debt, this is our future too! But, the good news... is it's also been confirmed by Barack Hussein Obama that ALL austerity measures worldwide are the fault of George W. Bush!
So, karen, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) as of 2009, we spend 17.4% of our GNP on Health Care. Our per-capita expense, which for working people means the expenses of they or their employers are $7,960.
In Spain, from the same year, they spend $3,067 per capita, and 9.5% of their GNP.
In Greece, the OECD numbers are similar, but only available for 2007.
The World Health Organization (WHO) reports similar numbers for 2008.
I have to ask, do your statements have any relationship to reality?
Do you pay attention to what you say and write.
Spain and Greece are in trouble, not because their health care system is so expensive and unwieldy, but because their economies have collapsed.
We are the nation spending too much for health care, and if we are not going broke [yet] it is because we are a much wealthier nation than either Greece or Spain.
If you were to check out the figures on this site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_%28PPP%29_per_capita), you'd see that we pay much more, both individually and as a nation for our health care. Many people pay more for their health care than they do for their mortgage or rent. It has become their biggest expense.
Needaplan:
Are you SERIOUS? This will happen is the US also WITHOUT ANY DOUBT! The only question is when? The problem here is not the austerity measures. The problem here is that austerity happened a few decades too late. Greece, most of Europe, the US, Japan, and others have been spending like drunk sorority girls for 50 years. The gravy train in Europe has derailed and no one can quite seem to understand that their easy life can't be funded in a nation where nothing is produced and no one works. The economy of Greece is based on tourism... and as a tourist would ANYONE want to go there under risk of riot? Last year I wanted to go there, by my family went to Italy instead.
With 47% of US adults not paying FEDERAL INCOME TAXES (not social security taxes, I know), the gravy train is about the derail here also. Obozo knows this! Thie is why a few trillion $ has been spent the last 3+ years on all of the liberal groups who contribute to the Democrat Party -- because they have been the gravy recipients and their the day of financial reckoning is upon us. We are now to the point that to keep the unions propped-up with the lifestyle they have learned to appreciate, the other 80% of us will have to pay... OR we will have to borrow more from the Chinese putting future generations deeper into debt. We need to look at every dollar in the US budget and ask ourselves if that program is worth selling our kids and grandkids into economic slavery for? Naturally, we will need to increase taxes on the rich also... but we also need to increase taxes on the middle class, and the poor by a severe cut in freebies also. BUT, this is not an issue of not enough taxes as there is not enough money in circulation to pay our current federal spending. President Obama is like a drug dealer giving drugs away for free to start... but he expects the rest of us to pay for this gravy habit. NO THANKS!!! President Obama is putting more people every year into future (financial) slavery than Abraham Lincoln removed from slavery!
janellectl,j do you pay attention at all to what's going on in Europe? Other countries are NOT doing fine with socialized medicine. In fact, by all estimates, the healthcare system in the UK will be bankrupt in 10 years. It is unsustainable.
dman-353357, how can you not see the connection between government collapse and entitlements? It's pretty plain to see that the countries who nurtured the welfare mentality coupled with absurd government giveaways are in serious trouble.
I cannot believe that the liberals in this country are so blind! Don't they realize that we are going down this same socialist road in which we will have much the same end? We cannot continue to spend more than we take in and we cannot just "expect" to continue raising taxes to no end. We must start cutting into "entitlements" and realize that we cannot continue thinking that overtaxing the so-called "1%ers" into oblivion is some kind of solution. These individuals are the drivers of our jobs and if we eliminate their energy we will simply eliminate millions of positions. We also cannot believe that our government can "save or create" enough jobs to employ our people.
It has been shown that government spending is "overhead" on our economy that will drag it down if this spending is increased. We cannot continue to pay people not to work, give them free food, medical care, and now even cell phones! Socialism is only great for those who are in charge! If you do not believe in this ending, just look at Greece and Spain! (BTW, Spain was one of the first "Green Energy" inovators and see where it has gotten them!)
The only Americans with a healthcare crisis are those who are dumb enough to take a job that doesn't offer a good healthcare plan. If you get an offer but the benefits stink, keep job hunting...and don't quit your job until you have a good job lined up.
As far as anti-austerity protests...their gov't is cutting back services because it can't afford to keep paying for them...so either the gov't collapses and then offers NO services at all(including police, fire, military) or they cut back on trash pick up and such... If you didn't have one leech for every worker like you do in the United States and people actually pulled their weight in life, tax rates would be half of what they are, companies would be expanding and creating jobs and the economy would always be in great shape...it's the idea that some people can get their slice of the pizza without helping pay to tip the delivery guy that gets countries in these problems.
It's time we cut the leeches loose as the only people who should be dependent on the system are those who are medically incapable of contributing...and even then their families should be helping. Too many deadbeats are holding the economy down. Let's bring back the debtor's prisons...problem solved...
JinSoFla
Clearly you have not been on any government program and tried to get off. The Safety net is as much a trap as a safety net.
Example: Unemployment
If you lose your $500 per week net pay you might get $350 per week. You need when you used to net $500. When living paycheck to paycheck you need $500. If you work you can only make $50. If you work over $50 amount, then your benefit is reduced dollar for dollar for every dollar over $50 you need. The only work you can find is work that makes about $375 per week. It doesn't take genius to figure out to only work the $50 and try to wait for a job that will make you what you made before. The problem with waiting is that after one year of unemployment, your chances of getting a good job goes down because your skills are deteriorating from the lack of use, you are not going to be up on new procedures, new software and often you must be "flawed" to still be looking for work or even lack ambition.
Detrich
That doesn't help people who get laid off because the company is cutting back or professionals who have to live off 40% of what they were making before the crash in 2008.
The worst thing in the world to promote is government help. Politicians are plenty smart enough to know that having more on the goverment dole is job security. And as long as our economy doesn't provide the jobs, people are plenty glad to join government programs for food stamps. Boy, democrats are really loving this economy. That is why things won't change much under Obama.
You people are very weak minded. You want to blame socialized health care, or bad tax policy. But I think we all know where the blame is deserved, politicians. The handful who get countries into this mess and it takes all of us to work together to get out of it. And for the record, WHO do WE owe 16 Trillion Dollars too? I would very much like to see the list of creditors. I'm sure it's a who's who of financial malfeasance.
Very solid points John - we have technologized ourselves out of 'needing' people in quite a few cases, from auto industry to atm's to self-checkout at the grocery store. Advances that help a company bottom line but cut from the individual bottom line, leaving more individuals unneccessary. When people start becoming unnecessary, what do they become - burdens. We're doing it to ourselves, we are not far from the point of Spain and Greece.
Demar, do you have any links or references, or even an academic background to make your claim?
Rick-868962
Actually, their spending habits have more closely resembled those of a drunken sailor in a whorehouse. Then, they just print more money to make it worth less, borrow some more from tomorrow, and raise the debt ceiling so they can borrow some more.
It worries me that Uncle Bennie and company just crank up the presses like it is the thing to do. How, exactly do they plan to pay for this latest printing of Monopoly Money? I wonder how long it will be before the debt is $500 Trillion, the dollar is on par with the Yen, and lenders start charging credit card or loan shark rates to buy our paper. Congress, for the past 50 or 60 years has spent just like that drunken sailor in a whorehouse and the FED has been the enabler. They have just printed more money to cover what the politicians have spent and they just keep raising the debt ceiling to do it. Eventually the $20 Bill will have to be distributed on a roll in a 12 pack because they will be worth about the same as a sheet of Charmine.
What is the magic tipping point of debt to GDP where the lenders start charging credit card interest on sovereign debt? Is it 180% like Greece, 140% like Spain and Portugal, or around 100% like the US? When will the lenders just say "This is too risky; I'm out'ta here"? What do they think the government and the elected slime balls will have to do to fund their spending habits for buy more votes when that happens? How much will it cost for a gallon of Gas or a pound of Ground beef then? It has happened before; just like in Zimbabwe. Another occurrence in recent history was called the Wiemar Republic and the outcome of the ensuing little bar fight that followed didn't turnout too well for about 50 Million people. Needaplan, You do know that this is what took Greece down, don't you? It isn't that they couldn't borrow money, but that they lenders were charging loan shark rates because of the risk. The cost of short term borrowing went through the roof and it pushed them over the edge
Maybe these would-be rocket scientist at the FED have missed it, but for the past 50 or 60 years, we have raised generations of people that think corn and peas grow in a "Green Giant" can. In the 20's and 30's we were a mostly agrarian society; it ain't that way anymore. How many people do you know that can fix their own cars or house, grow their own food, hunt for and butcher their own meat? We have created a society that is dependent on the government's stipend in order to survive. What do they think will happen when the stipend goes away because the government has nothing with which to give it or inflation is so high that it won't buy anything? Do they think these people will just sit on the curb and cry or will they turn into an angry Athens style rioting mob complete with torches, pitch forks, and a 1911-A1 .45 Automatic for everyone? I wonder what the riots in Athens would have looked like if the rioters had been better armed than the police like the gangs in Chicago or LA are today. My money is 5 to 1 on the mob if the dollar tanks to the level of the Zimbabwean currency.
It has been my experience that civilization is a very thin veneer that we CHOOSE to wear. If you place people into the right (or wrong) situations and apply enough pressure, most of us will both quickly and cheerfully strip it off faster than the dancer on stage at the nudie bar. Necessity, Hunger, and Survival are the most ruthless of our natural instincts and it won't take much for us to revert to the animals from whence we came. We as humans will do whatever it takes to survive at the expense of anyone or anything else. We are not a very pretty species when the going gets tough.
When people can't feed their kids and it takes a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread, normally sane and rational people will start doing some really friggin' crazy things. I have several very good friends from Germany. My friends are an intelligent, kind, thoughtful, and generous group of people, but about 80 years ago they, as a collective, followed a really crazy little bastard (literally) straight into the pit of hell for just that reason. They have told me stories about what their parents and grandparents endured and did that would curl the hair of a lot of the OWS kids who spent their time crapping in the park.
I served with the 3rd Marines in Quang Tri and Thua Thien provinces of Vietnam and have seen with my own eyes just what my fellow human creature is capable of doing when the going gets tough or the pressure too great. We humans are not the kindest species when the going gets tough; Do these pseudo-geniuses really want to see what he looks like too? Just continue spending like that Drunken Sailor in the whorehouse with no responsibility and accountability and printing money with both hands and they will probably get a chance to see what it looks like for themselves. I can guarantee you from experience that it won't be pretty.
.
Obviously, those vying for social medicine have never stepped foot into a National Health hospital. Once you have done so, report back and let us know what you think....
People better watch out here in the USA should they try to go the route of the Greeks. The NDAA that obama signed has a provision in it that enables the Gov. to detain Americans indefinantly with NO CHARGES, and NO LEGAL REPRESENTATION. The other week a judge struck that provision down saying it was UNCONSTITUTIONAL. So, what did obama do about that? why of course he took it to the next level, and had another judge reinstate the provision temporarily!. The USA has DUMB's (Deep Underground Military Bases) that are according to reports akin to prisions. Keeping that in mind I would have to say our Gov. has the ability to take a vast majority of our population to these DUMB's never to be heard from again.
WELL PUT DB Akron - all of your comments above
I used to live on the upper West side of Manhattan around 180th St,
This is a heavily Hispanic - Puerto Rican, Dominica Republic & Mexican -area to the point that it getting almost impossible at times to find people who speak that foreign language called English even in a store - and NO I am not exaggerating nor am I anti-Hispanic go see for yourself if you doubt it.
The main drag - St. Nicholas Avenue - from 180th thru 184th +/- on any given day is lined table to table with people selling anything and everything imaginable in the way cheap whatever, in most cases undoubtedly with no business licenses and/or payment of income or sales taxes. This cacophony of mercantilism - gave me pause for thought when I first saw it. I wondered if perhaps somehow unbeknownst to me I had been transported to Mexico to one of the open markets itis know for.
One of the realizations I also came to is that far too many - a majority actually - of the people living in this area think that it is their God given right to have "help" from the profligate and too generous state of NY and its federal accomplices.
You could easily tell - within a day or two - what time of the month it is by going into a grocery store I discovered.
If the stores were so filled withso many shoppers that it was almost impossible to move and the lines at the checkout were 10 or 15 deep with overflowing grocery carts filled with all manner of empty calorie foods - it was the beginning of the month., when the "white credit card" as the people in that area refer to it their EBT - card has been "magically" refilled with "credit" by the generous (with our money) souls int he welfare department. If thee stores were virtually as barren as Obama is for solutions to the country's problems and checkers were standing around twiddling their thumbs - it was the end of the month prior to the "recharging" of the card.
One of the weaknesses we as humans have, and which also has helped humanity survive, is that we seek pleasurable things that tend to be consistent with our survival as well and once we find them are resistant to changing them.
Why would those who are so (literally) fat and sassy with their EBT cards, or as in the case of the Greeks so complacent and lacking in appreciation of the help they have been given so far by the European Union and yet STILL not willing to accept ANY responsibility for the fact they are the architects of their OWN demise, why would they bother to lift a finger to change and choose to get off their butts and start fending for themselves rather than wait for their monthly "recharge" of their welfare credit cards.
The answer is, they won't until they are forced to be responsible by allowing them to experience the fiscal as well as moral bankruptcy of their way of thinking and face the consequences of it.
Because the socialist in Spain lose in recent election , now they are rioting and protesting in the streets, Spaniardrs vote for President Rajoy because they knew that was impossible to bring the economy back without cuts in spending, but the left, the losers can't accept the will of the majority, they can't accept their defeat , they prefer to destroy their country to accept the facts , even if contunuing with this trend their economy will go to the cliff. I cant see any different here, if Romney is elected , OWS , labor unions and the left will start doing the same to destabilize our economy, bring chaos to destroy any chance of success for our economy so another socialist can be elected to continue radicalizing our country.
WASHINGTON, DC: The Food Stamp Program, administered by the US Department of Agriculture, recently announced the greatest number of free meals and food stamps ever are being given out.
Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the US Department of Interior, tells all "Please Do NOT Feed the Animals". Their stated reason for the policy is because the animal population will grow dependent on handouts, will not learn to care care of themselves, and will eventually attack those giving the free food.
This ends today's lesson.
Hummmmmmmmmmmm "What will WE do when the well runs dry?"
Do you think the millions chickens munchin out ... gettin fat, dumb, and relatively happy in their surroundings on the Frank Perdue poultry farm in Podunk, USA have a glimmer of whats waiting them down the road?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Neither did the Greeks! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Did the vast majority of Americans over the last fifty years ever consider what the cause and effect of of what was happening in this country?
"You Reap What You Sow" .... and gain the rewards of the harvest at the end of the season.
As a group, we have "borrowed", trusted the wrong public representatives and their plans, (of both parties) and spread about the redistribution of that borrowed wealth, indiscriminately and with long term devastating consequence, that we could not foresee or didn't observe in our euphoric state of well being.
Any mistake in a economic system as large as ours can be hidden from view for perhaps decades before it rears its head and bites ... it's the nature of "filling the pipeline" ... it just appears to keep sucking up what ever you put in it ................ till it stops, and slows to a trickle ..
Unless we make corrections that are "politically" unpopular .... we will be like the Greeks ...
Quit the political battle, it gets you nowhere to politicize the issue ... you are the victim of "divide and conquer" by both political parties, your only a numbers game.. . . . . OR get on that conveyor belt in the Purdue chicken house for your last ride ............ and cluck your heart out!
Our "Season" is almost over, the crop turned out poorly .... are e going to rethink our decisions and "replant" or take that final ride?
Please note: Politicians don't want to address the issues before the elections .. they just want to slide through ...
When drastic cuts have to be made here how will the public sector unions react? When interest rates start rising, and they will, the interest payments will be so huge that it will finally dictate that cuts be made in order for this country to survive. A lot of public sector unions wage scales are way above the private sector if the public sector unions strike then this country will have the same problems...thankfully the private sector is not nearly as large as in the euro sector.
To the Good, the Bad & the Ugly and Rick-868962, Great Posts.
Both of these posts are exactly what is happening here in the USA. But unfortunately the Entitlement crowd will continue to refuse to face the truth, and will continue to follow the Progressive Dems over the cliff like lemmings.
Isn't Europe so great? All the lefty/liberal/sociliast types have been spewing that crap for years. Reality is cold, hard bitch and when she slaps you it's gonna hurt. You can't spend more than you take in. It's basic math. Politicians have been using various ponzi scemes for years and at some point...people are going to pay for it. Limit the damage... push for term limits eveytome you can. Career politicians are like cancer to this country.
A simple majority of our population is still over 150 million. Keeping that in mind, you may wish to re-think that ridiculous comment.
Brain dead socialist you don't need no stink'in software to do a job have you ever heard of a shovel? what about a hammer? can you pick fruit? can you weld? how about pull wire, if you can't get by then you aren't trying hard enough. everyone wants some do nothing desk job, well there aren't enough of them to go around so get a trade job some of them make better money then those wussy office jobs, seems like everyone wants to work for social services well those will be the first jobs to hit the recycle bin when we trash the social programs and make everyone work for a living, if you don't learn to do something usefulthen you will be working in the fields, and technology 50 years from now will be a memory, the world as you know it will not exist, people better learn how to do the basics because that will be what will keep you alive. you better think twice if you think things can keep going the way they are, your leaders are driving right for a cliff, its time to get off the buss. don't follow the politician's they don't know where they are going. if they do there not sharing it with you. there is one thing that history has proved time and again over and over and over its a lesson that man just can't learn and that is that socialism does not work, never has worked, never will work, why is it that man can't learn that simple lesson.
Greece is truly the California of Europe; crying foul when the government can no longer afford to help them wipe their own asses. Where is the pride in one's self? Congratulations, you've demonstrated to the world your idiocy and the infantile level to which you've devolved. One of the great civilizations of humanity is now comprised largely of children in adult bodies. How pathetic.
I'm afraid it is too late for the US. There will be severe pain very soon!
Spain and Greece are in trouble because they are lazy
Right and the banks and its investor walk out with ease. All the bail out so far is not for the people, but for the big banks. They then withdraw their money and invest in another country, thus making a worse situation even worsen. Housing bubble also happens due to big banks as well.
Lazy? Yes, they have been lazy for years to let's the big banks control everything and did nothing.
Funny that Germany has a great control on corporations and protect their unions/workforce and look at them, strong economic and a little over 5% unemployment. They didn't have the GLOBAL BANKS to dictate them and crash their economic.
student-441456
Lazy? You are an... These people are just as willing to work as anybody else. I find it ironic that people are educated and willing to work, but for system reasons they are prevented. They are kept out of work and prevented from accessing or providing services because the exchange of capital is unavailable.
The real problem in Europe is the trade imbalance with China for manufactured goods, and with the middle east for energy supply. When money is in the economy, it is drained when purchasing foriegn imports. There is less cash available to pay debts. Injections of cash then require more borrowing, and the downhill spiral of an economy begins. It's not so much that a trade imbalance exists, it's the magnitude.
People are willing to work hard...but not in manufacturing. Manufacturing companies have low margins, rely on lower pay, are constantly strapped to keep up on capital equipment. They are usually weak and vulnerable in economic terms and require some protection. That is why a candidate like Romney will make the worst possible choice for the long term economy. Bain Capital, his former company, was adept at attacking the low laying economic fruit...manufacturing. Romney-economics will raise capital most certainly, but not by building a manufacturing base, rather by feeding off its corpse.
Hello!!!! What do you think is happening in the US? We are spoiled, pampered, lazy, and what do you think is going to happen when obama and the democrats bankrupt us and they have to take away the freebies and free ride? It is going to happen. Sooner or later, when we are 25 or 30 trillion in debt. the gov't will take away because they cannot afford it. If obama gets in another four years, America is in deep crap!!!!
Student: IF you're actually a student, (doubtful) why don't you get some history books along with a few political science and global economics tomes and LEARN. Unless you're one of these numpties 'graduating' with a degree in some jerk-water religion in a red state, you would already realise that your statement is 1) void of fact and 2) inflamatory and denegrating at BEST. Why don't you try to get a REAL education?
Mark: HELLO!!! What do you think is happening in the US? The rich have gotten 26% richer and the middle class is beginning to dissolve (as in dropping into the poverty areas). What else do you think the Rwing is going to do if they take over the WH? Give the common folk RAISES? If I were a betting sailor, I'd wager they would vote in another HYUGE frickin tax break to the so-called "job creators" that HAVEN'T created a job in the last ten years. Sooner or later, the obstructionists will damn this country to oblivion because NO ONE (except the rich) IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD TO EAT. If the Rwing gets back in office America will be UTTERLY DESTROYED!!!! [Was that good enough for you? Me? Yeah - I'm so good, even the neighbours need cigarettes. I don't know what makes this guy so stupid, but it certainly seems to work....]
Student-441456, your comment and name are a tragedy and reflect the busted up school system in this country. I feel great shame for you. Please go to school - go back to school - or just go to the library and read a book. Stop being lazy yourself and relying on electronic media, pick up something with pages and read a book.
Charles the Hammerhead, these people are on strike. How is the system preventing them from working? Striking is a voluntary action. By the way, unions are the exact reason manufacturing has died a slow, painful death in the US, not venture capitalism.
= Austerity?
Wow, Spain is going to pieces!
Spain tried the green revolution,going green didnt work as a money maker.Part of the problem.USA learn from others mistakes.
Right now we put out more money than we take in.Do you see any desire to cut spending in the usa?no.
Our current model wont work in the long run.
Its all Obama thinking,green economy and debt.FAILURE.
I'll back Student up. Spain and Greece (along with Italy) have been notorious for having low worker productivity in developed nations. Google it...
the greek people trusted their government. they thought they were acting in their best interests. instead they were either giving themselves too many raises or allowing corporations and businesses to cut corners. whether the politicians benefited or not is unknown, but they should have enforced regulations.
the land of greece does not belong to just individuals or businesses. i can guarantee you that much of the business dealing were illegal and unethical.
Note that the unions control most if not all of the EU nations. This is what happens when you demand so much that you run out of other people's money. This is exactly where Obama and his unions are taking us.
GM has left the country for greener pastures in China! Without China it would once again fail with the weight of union contracts.
Note that most EU offer free or reduced cost healthcare. Who pays for that when the funds run dry and you can not borrow anymore.
Mark-384387...you are correct in one area for sure..we have been lazy in the voting department for sure..by continuing to re-elect the same people all the time...especially millionaires who have their own agends that have nothing to do with the general public..only the wealthy. If you think not..listen close to Romney and every republican..and many democrates today...they all are for their wealthy friends..and are doing nothing for the rest of us. They all, the wealthy, miss one small item..it is the middle class who worked and built this nation to the greatness it had..it is the wealthy and the bought and paid for politicans who are selling us all out. We need change ..and it is the voter who has to make it.
This is a result of over-entitlement and low productivity among the people and their governments. Ask a greek person what a "work" schedule is like there... it's hilarious to hear. And it makes you realize that if our system was much like there's (expensive entitlements - low work production) we would be screwed along with anyone else that followed suit. This is what happens when you overextend; eventually things begin to snap...
This is a reposting of my comment that was collapsed along with all the other comments that happened to be under Homesick Yanks comment above.
Again and again, and yet again, everyday here on the Vine you see comments whose are only "inflamatory" content is that it disagrees with those whose delicate, dictatorial liberal tendencies finde them offending beause they don't support their narrow minded viewpoints. Well, fortunately, digital ink is easy to copy. If you want to see some excellent analysis - check out DB Akron's comments to be found within "Homesick Yanks" string. In meantime, below is my own comment - with previous typos corrected and addendums!
Our right to free speech is our most valuable freedom. No one in their right mind claims to be infallible and all us no matter how well intentioned - liberal or conservative - has all the answers, but it is only in an environment where both smart and stupid ideas can be voiced and allowed to fall or rise on their respective merits do we ultimately arrive at a new and better approach to things. If you stifle opinions you stifle creativity and freedom.
As the saying goes; "Democracy is the worst form of government; except for all the others."
______________________
My comment:
WELL PUT DB Akron - all of your comments above
I used to live on the upper West side of Manhattan around 180th St,
This is a heavily Hispanic - Puerto Rican, Dominica Republic & Mexican -area; to the point that it getting almost impossible at times to find people who speak that foreign language called English; even in a store - and NO I am not exaggerating nor am I anti-Hispanic go see for yourself if you doubt it.
The main drag - St. Nicholas Avenue - from 180th thru 184th +/- on any given day is lined table to table with people selling anything and everything imaginable in the way of cheap whatever; in most cases undoubtedly with no business license and/or payment of income or sales taxes. This cacophony of mercantilism gave me pause for thought when I first saw it. I wondered if perhaps somehow unbeknownst to me I had been transported to Mexico to oen of its famous open air markets.
One of the realizations I also came to is that far too many - close to if not a majority actually - of the people living in this area think that it is their God given right to have "help" from the profligate and too generous state of NY and its federal accomplices.
You could easily tell - within a day or two - what time of the month it was by going into a grocery store I discovered.
If the stores were filled with so many shoppers that it was almost impossible to move and lines at the checkout were 10 or 15 deep - with overflowing grocery carts filled with all manner of empty calorie foods - it was the beginning of the month, when the "white credit card" as the people in that area refer to their EBT card has been "magically" refilled with "credit" by the generous (with our money) souls in the welfare department.
If thee stores were virtually as barren as Obama is for solutions to the country's problems and checkers were standing around twiddling their thumbs - it was the end of the month prior to the "recharging" of the card.
One of the weaknesses we as humans have, and which also has helped humanity survive, is that we seek pleasurable things that all things being equal tend to be consistent with our survival as individuals as well as a species. We also, once we find them and begin to enjoy them becoming highly resistant - violent often intellectual and/or physically - when asked to change our habits. Doing so requires thinking and deliberate effort.
Why would those who are so (literally) fat and sassy with their EBT cards or, as in the case of the Greeks, so complacent and lacking in appreciation of the help they have been given by the European Union (which they will never pay back nor have any intention of paying back); and whom even now, are STILL not willing to accept ANY responsibility for the fact they are the architects of their OWN demise, why would they bother to lift a finger to change and choose to get off their butts and start fending for themselves rather than wait for their monthly "recharge" of their welfare credit cards in the case of the Manhattanites, or in the case of the Greeks the next infusion of what they view as their deserved "free"money?
And the answer is? They won't- ever - until they are forced to be responsible allowed to experience the fiscal as well as moral bankruptcy and total effect of their parasitic ways of thinkings and face the consequences thereof.
Alex, bravo on condemning him for being inflammatory and denegrating while being inflammatory and denegrating yourself. Really gets the point across.
The only reason Germany has a better economy then the rest is that we (USA) prop up their economy with a lot of military personnel and bases.
Kind of funny how so many people want the gov't here to run healthcare and have all these socialized programs, but then criticize politicians and say they are evil. Kind of contradictary don't ya think?
Have you ever noticed that austerity measures only apply to the working class, senior executives never seem to have their salaries or perks reduced but the people who do the work are always hit.
I love how we have transformed into a world of technology and people with fine arts degrees are complaining they cannot find a job. Adapt or die. The future and security is not in fine arts, it is in science, math, engineering, medical. Look at your world around you and look at the pace of things. You cannot be stuck in the past and expect to survive in the future.
LadyCat -
Senior Executives of private entities do not take money from government; they generally give it through taxation. Therefore, when austerity measures are put in place and welfare benefits are cut it doesn't affect them because they were never receiving them to begin with. I hope I have helped clear that up for you. I guess in the public sector which is what I assume we're dealing with in Greece; those senior executives are politicians and those are voted in so blame them.
Think about it.. Well said. still can't believe parents send their kids to collage and let them major in Art or some on non productive area. If Nobrana, Nobama gets in we'll be in deep @!$%# man.
You're using class warfare. If Sr execs are willing to work longer and harder (most middle class Greeks retire at 50, and most pay little or no taxes as Greece doesn't have any real means of collecting -- so these "poor" working class muddle along doing what's necessary to collect a check, don't pay taxes, and then count on those that are contributing to fund their EARLY retirement. Stop with the class warfare, I for one am sick of it! (by the way I'm one of "those" middle classers and at 55 I'm still working as I have been since I was 15!
Coming soon to a country near and dear to you. Just vote for Obama.
"There were also violent clashes between anti-austerity protesters and riot police in Spain on Tuesday."
This is what happens when governments promise 'entitlements' that they cannot afford and they run out of 'Other People's Money' to borrow and spend.
Gee I wonder which political Party in America keeps promising more and more 'entitlements' in return for votes?
By the way - Romney's comment about most of the 47% who pay no income taxes voting overwhelmingly for Obama is completely accurate. The NY Times reported after the 2008 elections that 64% of the voters who make $30,000 per year or less voted for Obama vs only 33% for McCain - another large demographic group that voted overwhelmingly for Obama was high school dropouts, who voted for Obama by 63% vs only 35% for McCain.
Mark-384387 " Sooner or later, when we are 25 or 30 trillion in debt. the gov't will take away because they cannot afford it. If obama gets in another four years, America is in deep crap!!!!"
That could happen sooner than we think. According to Obama's own 2013 Budget projections (see White House 2013 Budget), if Obama is reelected the National Debt will exceed $20 Trillion by 2016, and be over $26 Trillion a few years later.
And despite the economic catastrophe we are experiencing now, people still want to reelect Obama? AMAZING.
Student, as "undeveloped" as your statement is, it is still factually correct.
Greek and Spanish worker productivity has lagged other developed nations for decades.
The Greek government admitted it had no idea how many people were on its payroll.
Nearly a decade ago, a Spanish government official was quoted as saying their social programs were unsustainable, yet projected to greatly increase.
And anecdotally speaking, my Greek friends ALL talk about how lazy (their words) their fellow citizens are.
We are headed down the same path. I'm not a doom and gloomer type, but I expect that we'll see the same thing in our streets sooner rather than later.
Roy Wilson - It truly is mind boggling, but not beyond comprehension.
If someone is drug dealer and they told one of their addicted "clients" that, "I and my gang are in danger of being arrested, which means no more la la land for you." Would it not be totally logical and inccumbent upon his addicts to do everything in their power to protect their dealer/leader?
Obama is quick to use the class warfare "card" at the drop of a hat, and not surprisingly. He knows that by doing so he is playing to the worst fear - having to take responsibility for their lives - of those who love to live in envy as well as sit on their butts and rake in "social benefits" like the EBT folk I mentioned above, who in many cases are also getting subsidized Section 8 housing; all the while renting out one, two three rooms in thier apartments a month in their Section 8 housing at $500.00 a pop per room. It happens all over New York City and you can bet your life in other bastions of welfare like California.
Only a fool would think they could deny it; just as only a fool would vote for Obama given his utter lack of success in virtually any realm one might point to as a barometer of his ability to lead.
The policies of an Obama help create the very social ills that he then says we need big government to solve, and thus we end up with a never ending, continuing downward spiral both economically and socially.
Coming to a city near you.
Just wait an find out what Mr. Obama's 2nd term agenda is going to be IF, and that is a BIG IF, he is re-elected. However, here is a "hint":
Mr. Obama "promises" to FINISH his transformation of America:
Ido: Post # 2.28.....Thank -You.
How horrible is it that regular American citizens (conservatives) have to spend almost every waking hour exposing all the Bone Chilling Plans Obama has for America?
I've heard 70 year olds say they have never seen a more corrupt Media in their lives. (I work with the elderly) not all of them are drinking the KoolAid.
Concerned Voters I urge you to Visit Drudge Report
every day! He uses ALL news scources - Only Drudge reports stories the MSM omitts.
Once u see what they hide from you you will understand why Conservatives seem a bit Scared of whats happening!
I stopped reading right there...
Socialism always leads to violence.
And capitalist leads to greed where corporations control the government. How is the US faring so far? We are the one that create a chain reaction to the current world's economic crisis.
Cuong, you think corporations control government? By far, not the only ones. How about the lawyers? How about the environmental groups? How about the unions? These are the groups who control the democrats and are part of the reason that the US will go bankrupt.
The American "Freeway" system was built and maintained on pure socialist methods. 100% Government funded.
If we were to sell the Freeway system to private enterprise our transportation network would turn into a fiefdom of toll roads. Each time a direct route was bought or sold, a new banknote would cause the tolls to jack another notch.
Are saying that the Freeway system always leads to violence? I suppose that murderers need to drive their cars, so in this case you are correct. But not everybody who drives on the freeway is a murderer.
America is a mix of socialism and capitalism. To tip the balance too far in either direction will bring down our economy and way of life.
buck - Even the 'Student' from above should be able to tell you that questions or statements that contain the word "always" are always false. Give your head a shake along with trying to come up with some kind of reason (probably another false assumption) as to why your simple (and do I mean SIMPLE!) little sentence could be true. Here is something to keep in mind while you're doing that: Assumptions do not rely on fact and are usually wrong. If the assumptions are wrong, then logic would dictate that the conclusions are not likely to be very good.
Right on Mark. That's exactly where the US is headed. And people refuse to open their eyes and see what Obama is doing to this country. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Payback for all the freebies is coming and the situation in this article makes that abundantly clear.
CuongDNguyen,
I own a corporation. I don't "own" the government. I pay the highest tax rate in the country. I know hundreds of other business owners who also do not "own" the government. 80% of Americans work for small businesses who do not "own" the government.
You should stop drinking the left-wing kool-aid and spouting all this gibberish. Or just move back to Vietnam and work in the rice paddies. LOL!
Pick a country, any country, they all have the same thing in common, the ultra wealthy. It doesn't matter what name you put on the system they all have the same core value.
Bobster
There is no need for "name calling" because you are disagreeing with someone. Not all Vietnamese are farmers just as not all corporate owners are leeches who sucked the life blood out of their employees.
Bobster,
As a corporate owner, you may not own the government but you are trying heck to buy the politicians influence. And it is really childish to call names because of their ethnicity.
HAMMERHEAD:
I found your problem! You think the GOVERNMENT paid for our interstate freeways. NOPE, US CITIZENS paid for our freeways -- we paid for it through our federal income taxes and various gasoline road taxes. YOUR PROBLEM is that you have the classic liberal belief that all money comes from the government. NOPE, the money comes from the people... as does the power of government. I think most liberals think this because many never work... and most of those who do work do so for government and government entities, and are members of their unions accordingly, and can't comprehent that they are OVERHEAD and not profit generators! LOL
There comes a point when the moochers have destroyed the providers so much that they can no longer provide for all the moochers. Then whose food do we eat? Will your ebt card stop working?
We are at that point, moochers (those who think govt. owes them everything) already out number the providers.
Rick-868962
Money exists in concept only. Money is a ledger kept in a bank to account for innumerable transactions. Productivity, labor, and property are the only sources of real wealth. Money is the means of exchange. The government will spend enough money into the economy, and it will take money out via taxation. That is simply a method.
If the government builds a road system it cannot simply spend cash or there will be inflation. It must tax the economy to justify the expenditure. But the government makes the decisions to build freeways, and is therefore a political entity AND the producer. Therefore, by definition that is socialism. Liberal or not, it is still socialism, (read the definition).
There are many forms of socialism in the US. NASA is also a socialist enterprise.
lol @ Alex:
And therefore, so is yours.
Hammerhead
The American Freeway System was built with defense funds. It seems that after WWII it was decided that we needed a system to move troops and equipment easily from coast to coast. The highway system had an advantage over the railway and Panama Canal routes.
It was hardly a socialist idea, it was the defense of the USA that lead to the system. I believe that the constitution makes defense one of those expenses that the founding fathers thought was a necessary expenditure. Thanks again to a President that thought that a strong defense was a necessary expenditure. PS the president was Eisenhower a Republican.
All I am asking is that Obama worshipers visit Matt Drudge...It is there I saw what stories the MSM is hiding from the American Public.
I'd like to think that the "Rock Star" worshipers of Obama will at least investigate.
DRUDGE REPORT --visit it daily. You will be sick to learn what the Messiah Media is hiding!
See for yourself America! he is fair he uses All News Sources only he does not OMIT important Stories just because they may reflect badly on "Mr Eye Candy" (gag)
@Bobster-1557895
Ahh, the typical response of something who have nothing but hot air, when you have nothing, attack the person directly.
Vietnam as you are so uneducated to know have been in "unregulated" market for long time, they are even more capitalist than in US.
Here is an advice for you, before you insult me, at least spend sometimes to learn about me and my country. Closest bigots like you who only know how to stereotype people, it is showing.
This will be cumming to the U.S.A. in 4 to 5 yrs. this county is going broke and am afraid its going to be down hill from hear out,the 2 party system just cant get along and the people of the U.S. just don't care,as long as they get "there's" its the end of the great American experiment,so all i can say good luck,its going to get ugly
While I generally agree with you, your post clearly demonstrates another problem. Our liberal education system is NOT doing its job and the Democrats are to blame! "be cumming", "from hear", " ' there's'", "its"... not to mention terrible punctuation and improper spelling... far more than simple typos! LOL
Obams 2nd term
1. Amnesty (which he has already done in effect, 2 million "workers") & just think if the DEMS get NO ID VOTING? hmmmm
2. Gay Marriage
3. Removing Tax exempt status from American Churches (while handing billions to the Muslim Brotherhood)
4. Suffocate Right to work States by only honoring HIS UNION THUGS
5. More late night "executive orders" to build that 47% to 53% 4-Ever!
6. Increase Government employees even more than he has
7. Use the EPA to cripple Coal - Key Stone Pipeline
8. Use Obama Care to isolate political enemies & old useless voters.
9. World wide Vacations with Michelle & the Girls - Continue my Lavish Lifestyle (on the Tax Payers back)
6. Party down with the decedent Plastic People who are also FILTHY RICH! Y do Obama Dems adore the Hollywood Rich? & hate the WORKING rich?
This is what America will look like if Obama is re-elected.
America you have two choices.
Obama will lead America forward to Destitution.
Romney will lead America back to the Constitution.
How does Romney do that? Creating 12 millions jobs out of thin air?
From what Romney said and based on Ryan's plan. Romney would add at least 4-5 trillions more per year with the increase in defense budget, more tax cut for the rich and loss of tax revenue due to 0% in capital gains. If you think Romney pay 14.1% tax is too low, wait until it hits 0%.
How much do you really know about Romney full plans? A few details he shows already is bad enough and Ryan said it himself that "We do not know when we can balance the budget, but we estimate it is around 2040 and yes that is not a typo, 2040".
:RAGE AGAINST REALITY" O"BAGGERS AMERICA 2012
A peek at O'Baggers America!!!! The union troll president (lets not forget teamsters Joe).
Cuong, what drugs are you taking? We do know that obama's plan has done nothing but bankrupt us.
Romney's plans are a complete farce and pander to his presumed base. Now, Obama's plans aren't necessarily better - but at least Obama doesn't have to bow down to the tea party or that atrocious Karl Rove. Doesn't anyone realize that Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, and the lot of sods who are controlling the republican party these days all link directly back to Watergate and Tricky Dick Nixon?!
How on earth could any sane person see this as a good thing? The republican party today has been completely hoodwinked by Nixon's group. They're still duping the American people in what has to be the biggest heist in history. Absolutely absurd, stunning, and indescribable.
So you are saying that the republican party is run by supporters of Nixon? How old are these people now? Jinsofla, what exactly do you want? If we are going to have a ever increasing population, then we need to constantly grow our technology to feed them and to house them.
Right wingers started? I totally agree that the wars are stupid, but you know what, the house and the senate approved them. The American people wanted something done. It is easy to criticize now something that started 10 years ago.
What would you like done about what is happening in the middle east now? Should we just ignore it and hope that it goes away? President Obama is talking about Iran, should we do something there or not?
Follow Ron Pauls thinking.look it up.The whole freedom thing.Anti war,wich for some reason never got any support from all the leftys who screamed at bush.RP wanted to get out of wars and close overseas bases.
Mabe this thinking was to advanced for most americans.And for the haters out there,no i dont see any of his ideas as wacky in any way.
Cuong 12 million jobs is possible under Romney. Here is why. He will open up coal production in areas that the EPA recently put a stop to. He will do the same with oil. And the higher supply of oil will reduce the price at the pump, which in itself would be a golden key to all small businesses. Products will be cheaper because transportation costs will go down.
The economy revolves around fossil fuels and energy. It always has and always will. Obama tried to change that with the green energy crap, it will never work.
KevinT,
I wouldn't go as far to say that green energy will never work, but we will need to open up some other resources while we are in a state of change. Hydrogen fuel cells can and will eventually replace gasoline as the primary source of fuel, if algae produced ethanol doesn't take hold. We have options out there, but building the infrastructure to support it will take a while. The trick though will be implementing this technology without the oil companies blocking every pathway until we are eventually completely out of oil as a resource and left with nothing to replace it with.
You shouldn't try to explain business to someone that, obviously, is clueless.
Obama is on tape in a radio interview saying
"Yes by my plan utility bills would have to increase dramatically" But, he'll be saving the "enviorment"
Trust & believe the MSM will not piss all over themselves to Get that little GEM out! Obama Dems please at least check out Drudge Report- Often
See what kind of Important information the MSM is hiding from you! You will be angry/shocked
@ KevinT
Here is where your logic and argument failed. The oil is a global commodity, it means the oil corporation can sell it anywhere in the world if they pay higher price.
The US is consistently enjoy low price in gas in comparison to European and other countries. The evident in all this is the export in 2011 with oil at the top.
How is all that work will create in US again? Oh, that's right you don't know, you are just spewing things you clearly are ignorant of and pretend to know something when you clearly don't, just like Romney.
poodlefan0007 banned, re-reg of poodlefan007.
It was simply bad economics. The greek system for a long time lived larger than they could afford. Eventually one way or another the situation will stablize. In the mean time maybe the greeks along with other european countires will actually try living within their means.
Hello!! How about the US? Our deficit to GDP is 24%. Not sustainable and will cause the US to go bankrupt and have to take away the freebies.
Previous generations lived a life of excess, a life well beyond their means. They had a standard of living few of these young people, who are now being asked to pay for their parents and grandparents excesses, will ever know.
The same thing is coming to America.
@ hs321 -- have you ever been to the Phoenix, Arizona area? Every day there is excess all around me and it ain't the elderly.
Since the replies here will doubtlessly chime about how the events in Greece and Spain will be coming to the U.S., I ask this - how should we fix the budget? There are really only three ways...
1) Cut programs, including medicare and social security (which I don't need for a long time, so fine by me - my grandparents might take issue, though).
2) Jack up taxes (apparently this is a sin according to the republican party, but I think most sane Americans accept that the Bush tax plan has long been in place and is ridiculously low).
3) A balanced compromise. Why not increase taxes a little and cut programs a little? Brilliant idea, huh? Too bad the dupes in the House and Senate don't think like this at all.
They are not living within their means and they are not interested in doing so because decades of government handouts has created a welfare mentality in Greece especially. If you actually knew of some of the entitlements Greek citizens get you would scratch your head. One of my best friends is from Greece and I can not believe the things he tells me.
JinSoFla,
Why do we pay taxes in the first place?
I do not know what state you live in, but my state has done whatever it can to raise taxes on everything that you need or do everyday. Now our dear governor is saying that if he get re-elected he would raise taxes again. So we have both the state and the federal government talking about an increase in taxes. Do you honestly think that this will not effect the economy? To increase revenue, you need more people working. You also need more people making higher salaries that pay more in taxes. Most of what has been talked about is creating jobs that already take tax payers dollars to support. So that is a double lose. We need private sector jobs that do not need tax revenue to support.
Rather than sit here at a computer I think I should go work on my vegetable garden in the back. I advise everyone to have some source of food that they don't have to rely on anyone for.
JinSoFla, has is somewhat correct. We are going to have to do both. Unfortunately this now generation is going to have to feel the hurt of what our parents/grandparents created. We are all going to have to sacrifice now to help our children of the future. Our parents/grandparents created this mess we are currently in, so if we have to cut their retirement budgets to get back on track, it really is on them. Maybe we will have to support them on the way and all live together as we once did, but as I said we are all in the same boat and will all have to make sacrifices to right this ship.
JinSoFla,
Raise taxes a little and cut spending a lot. There is quite a bit of "flab" in the government in programs and agencies that should never have come into existence in the first place. The NEA and NEH serve absolutely no purpose for instance.
Jeff don't drag Obama in to this. If someone is farting in China you going to blame that on Obama too?
Greece is Obama's blueprint for destroying America.
Your screename should be Dronewars unless Domewars is for your tin foil dome.
Jeffrey perhaps a little lesson on basic economic is in order. Obama asked the rich to pay more because he doesn't want to be like Greece where the rich are not paying their fair shares leaving the government with no revenues.
Yes- Obama adm.'s interference in EU eurozone crisis is documented. Obama is trtying very very hard to keep the cork in the bottle blowing up- since it will finally show the Obama's failed monetary policies for all to see. Eurozone will go bust- Obama thrpough Merkel is tgrying to persuade eurozone countries to pony up 2 trillion fund for bonds/upkeep. Spainish people do not even have medicines any more in the pharmacies in some places- there are p[eople eating from garbage (restaurants/cafes). There are no jobs- rest still swimming over the water level will be doomed to eternal pecuniary slavery for having been successful. That is the reason also why ultra nationalist parties are soaring in membership.
Fair Share? Define "Fair Share". And why should any person or group pay a larger percentage than anyone else? If you are going to use the term "fair share" then I hope you are willing to pay the same percent of your income. This kind of "point the finger" thinking has lead this country down this divisive path.
I support a flat tax with no deductions. Everyone pays the same percent of income regardless of amount. It is the only way to end the so-called class warfare. And it is the only way we will be able to look at our fellow country men equally.
Mabe a consumption tax?i dont see taxing poor people as a good thing.How about a president willing to put out some tariffs and lower the tax on companys to bring jobs back here.NAFTA sure didnt help us.
Islander Chef,
I too support a Fair Tax. No deductions, no IRS beating down your door, just plain and simple tax's on consumption. We get revenue from any illegal person living in the U.S. at the same rate. If you want to live here you will be taxed the same and we won't have to worry about tracking you to bleed revenue out of you. There will have to be some adjustments, but everyone pays.
KevM
If you taxed every dollar that the "rich" earn it would put a dent in the amount that this government spends yearly. This is NOT a taxing problem. It is a spending problem. If we take another hit on the bond rating it won't matter how much they tax it will distroy all of us. A 1% increase in the interest rate paid will add hundreds of billions of dollars to the deficit. It is call MATH 101.
JinSoFla: you are a perfect example of a 2 Faced Greedy Self Serving Obama Democrat!
While your Jehovah Obama is L I E I N G to old people. (they will lose medicare under Obama Care)
You show your Occupy Wall street colors..... In post # 6.4 you basicaly say "F**K old people I have no use for them"
Yet all we here from the FAKE Barry/Joe ticket is "We Care" BS - from where I stand Obama Democrats are all about H A T E ~
Why are they Voting for the Messiah? Because THEY HATE SOME OTHER AMERICAN nasty vile ppl.
Obama is cruising towards a default that would produce the same results we're seeing in Greece and Spain.He has no serious plan to avert the crises and doesn't even display any urgency,like he's got all the time in the world."What ME Worry?"
In reality default will come without a countdown.It'll arrive as it always does,in the middle of the night announced by global markets suddenly crashing,signaling the economic freefall about to begin.
Default = Austerity...imposed in a state of emergency with massive cuts to every social program keeping the poor off the street.Obama is,above all,the greatest threat to the poor and low income since the creation of the safety net.Obama scares the heck out of this DEM.He leaves me no alternative but to vote for the alternative - Romney.
Sad what kind of world we have become. Too many not paying their bills, not pulling their own weight, and continue to live beyond their means. Then when called on it, the attitude seems to be let's tear it down, burn it, destroy it and riot, rather than take responsibility and commit to buckling down and building it up. The time is coming to pay the piper....oh well, at least misery loves company.
This article talks about people having their pensions and salaries cut so clearly they're pulling their own weight. Then, they're having their social services taken away or cut down instead of other cuts the government could make, like perhaps cutting their own salaries or cutting down on the size of the government altogether. Because of some poor choices by their government, they're suffering the consequences and having to make the sacrifices.
Jo Mamma, the way the article reads, most of the salaries and pensions being cut ARE government salaries and pensions.
Jo Mamma...........You are right about the poor choices that Government made; as in, the Govt should not have promised lifelong pensions and excessive salaries for public workers. They should also not allowed a lot of the country to become a welfare state.
Obama has us on the same path.
@ Metalman -- um, what do you think social security is but a guaranteed, "lifelong" pension in old age? Saying Obama is on the same path is absurd. I can't recall one piece of legislation he's tried to pass that gives anyone a new pension. If anything, he's been for trimming government.
Once again, we find another conservative sort who has been hoodwinked by Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, and the lot of those Nixon groupies.
JinSoFla, you're joking right? Perhaps you should educate yourself about the difference between social security and pensions.
SOB,its been preety tough since 08 for me.The taxpayers bailing out banks was a bad idea.Just like the guvment bailing out GM was a bad idea.None of this stuff is in the constitution.
16 trillion in debt means your broke.The government is keeping the ship from sinking with printing money and debt.Look around do you see a great economy that would support a 13000 market?no its the fed pumping money into the market.
The president cant even be bothered to sit down with congress and shake a few hands and make some deals,he sure isnt a Bill Clinton. So people really want more of this?
JinSoFla
Social Security is hardly welfare. Most people who receive the benefit have paid directly in to the system and the company they worked for matched that payment. I would have loved to invest the money that I paid into the system for my own use but then others who never paid would never get their hands on the money. That would be progressive liberal would it?
Student - you're a moron. Good for them for letting the government know how they feel. Americans need to stand up more for their rights and the hardships we're facing - loss of jobs, foreclosures, decrease in salaries, health care, etc. (sound familiar?) I'm surprised this hasn't happened here yet. People are frustrated! Politicians forget WE elect them - so we need to start voting and speaking up. Power to the people!
Jo Mamma...
Wow how powerful. It won't happen until the government starts taking away the freebies or those "rich" bastards start firing people that they can no longer afford on their payrolls. You see most "rich" taxpayers are the small business employers and they don't have an infinite bankroll nor the ability to just increase the price of their service to make up additional costs. But who cares as long as they pay. Yeah.
Better yet start your own company so we can tax it out of existence. We need the money. TAX! TAX! TAX!
Maybe the job we TAX away is yours.
Profits allow businesses to grow and debts kills them.
Blah Blah Blah You must be a Ron Paul supporter? I am not opposed to a 3rd party BUT this is not the time!
We have our whole lives to piss & moan about Politicians!
If Obama wins this election YOU WILL HAVE NO VOICE what-so-ever. The FIX will be in the US will become CA & NY.
Whats your pleasure? continue to sit at your computer whining about the way things are, (like a child who is mad cuz he doesn't like the cards he got) Or participate! make a choice!
With all due respect ~ Your post are weary some & unrealistic.
a little preview; I will make it longer than most and yes I will definitely laugh my ass off when you progressive, liberal minded fools get your empty heads chopped off. put the monkey back in office, idiots.
Imagine that, a graduate in the Fine Arts can't find a job in Spain in her field and she can't make ends meet on $348 of unemployment per month. She needs a way to come to the US and there is plenty of Obama money here for her . She does not even have to enter legally and she won't have to look for work. THE UNITED STATES IS WORSE OFF THAN GREECE OR SPAIN. The only thing keeping us upright is the strength of the military and the traitorous Democrats will cut them of at the knees. The Left always promotes violence and then settles for slavery under a Dictator. A vote for Obama is a vote for Sharia Law and Slavery.
Dear History: anti gay, anti woman, anti free choice, anti reason, anti science all traits displayed by the right wing Republicans and those our core beliefs of Sharia Law. You sir are promoting Sharia law, which is against Unions, and public education and religious freedom, the lessons of 1776 have been forgotten, oh Thomas Paine how you must weep. The continuous growth system of current capitalism does not deal with the real world of peak oil and other limited resources, that's why the business world is failing. But, I do thank thee for taking the time to read and comment. I Sir blame Evolution and fluoride and flu vaccines for the problems!
Actually Moose, the GOP was the party of Lincoln and it was the Democrats in the South that fought against racial equality a century ago. Just sayin'
I never see any pro Romney adds when I'm posting in here.
Yet I see Obama pop-up adds out the ass.
I wonder if MSDNC throws those in for FREE~
I wish I was kidding ~ sigh~
Whats wrong with this picture?
Back before China had most of the worlds jobs and under cut prices. The world was doing well-ish and the people of China were starving and in discontent. Now that China has most of the worlds jobs and under cuts prices. The world is starving and in discontent and the people of China are still starving and in discontent.
This may not be all that is wrong with the economies of countries today (like people living on decades past lower incomes but still responsible to the banks at todays high cost of living) but it is an odd truth that plays a part.
I keep thinking that Europe is having problems because of that people may attack them. Like the people of Africa and the Middle East, with the problems there having it will make the people of Europe look bad and like there making fun of them and so they are going into debt. Maybe with Africa's and Asia's problems being solved that this will solve Europes problems with debt.
Huh????????????
Europe is under attach. Take a look at French and many other nations?? The Muslims are attacking them and trying to take over their country.
Coming soon to cities near you! Not a matter of if, but when. When you're paying out more in freebies than you can ever possibly bring in (even with a 100% tax on the 1%), the system is doomed to failure. Then, as in Greece and Spain, the freeloaders will revolt. Will they revolt against the government that put us in this mess? Probably not, at least at the onset. First they'll go after the "rich wall street bankers." The super-wealthy in hollywood and music icons, professional sports figures, politicians, etc.; well they'll get a free pass (except for Romney of course). Then they'll go after the rest of us hard-working Americans who are the primary source of income for their government-provided freebies. That's why I invest in precious metals - primarily cold steel and lead.
Greece just as predicted for its money printing followed by Spain predicted for its failed Green job loss policies and next Italy for its corruption. Sort of reminds you of anyone you know America?
As a few posters have already mentioned, I agree wholeheartedly that Obama has us on the same road to ruin.
The path we're on is unsustainable.
No matter who's in office, I think we're all screwed. You can never trust a bunch of dirty, rich, lieing politicians to handle your problems...
It DOES matter who's in office.
We have Obama now who has increased the welfare state, and has by-passed congress a couple times to do it.
We won't get that crap with Romney.
DEFEAT THE KENYAN COMMIE
VOTE MITT ROMNEY
Metalman,
You are correct. The problem is no one seems to do anything about it other than Paul Ryan. He should be running for president, not Romney. Obama, the dems, and GOP all do nothing. We need to cut about $600 billion a year from our federal government spending plain and simple. The fight should be about where the cuts are made. Why is this debate not happening right now?
Very well noticed Bobster, as I have said for decades, the best way to find the direction the president/vice pres want the country to go is to listen to the VP candidate. They tend to be straight forward with less lies & political correct bs than the main candidate.
Ryan says one thing,then look at his voting record.He has supported all kinds of things i dont.
It would be nice to get up in the morning , get a cup of fresh coffee, and find at least one poster that understands economics and can converse on the issues, mistakes and options open to the European Union. Instead one finds nothing but ignorance posting to issues about which nothing is known.
Using your economic prowess, please educate us.
Well why don't you enlighten us all with your wisdom there sdc?
Because your audacity, arrogance, ignorance and myopia is so unbelievably complete as to render elucidation absolutely hopeless. What is required is complete education of the facts, open mindedness and the ability to form factual opinion beyond repeating outdated news feed rhetoric.
sdc.clark, in other words, you don't know either.
Those are exactly my thoughts, Neal. Apparently the propensity to rape a thesaurus in route to asserting intellectual superiority does not constitute audacity. Can we visualize for a moment a world in which the two posts made by sdc.clark would not be considered hypocritically arrogant? And oh no, chastising an entire thread for a lack of facts and open-mindedness while simultaneously excusing one’s self from such frivolity does not reek of his decried ignorance at all. Does the fact that he left himself wide open for a retort of this nature not demonstrate a little bit of myopia on his part? Whatever clark, don’t be a tool. You're not better than anyone else... but if it helps get you through the day I guess do what makes you happy.
Our protesting already began over a year ago. It is known as Occupy Wall Street...ever hear of it? The way out of this mess is; jail any millionaires or billionaires unwilling to help lower the US debt by way of forfeiting a certain percentage of their treasure for the good of the nation otherwise they lose it all when they enter jail. Then all the mega corporations need to be broken up into small controllable companies especially the oil, big banks and any other too big to fail companies raking in billions in profits every quarter without helping the nation that made them who they are.
Huge suppoter of OWS. I totally agree with you. I think we all have to work together, and that includes the 1%, in order to get through this big mess.
How about we just jail the free-loaders?
How about we jail the folks who receieve EBT cards, then cruise the super-markets trying to talk people into helping them commit fraud by paying for their groceries with the card, and getting cash from the individual. In other words, the EBT card holder will pay for your $20 in groceries for $10 cash.
How about we jail the college students who suck at the government teet for tuition? And a good portion NEVER fully repay.
How about we jail those individuals who who get all sorts of government freebies like mortgage assistance, fuel assistance, interest free loans, etc? A lot of these people are driving around in $40,000 vehicles.
Why don't we cut out the deadwood before we cut down the tree?
Spoken like a true communist!
Huge suppoter of OWS. I totally agree with you. I think we all have to work together, and that includes the 1%, in order to get through this big mess.
That is the most non-divisive comment I have read in a long time. We need more people thinking like you. Thank you for giving me hope.
eh... although I don't entirely disagree, it's still divisive. A truly non-divisive comment would be:
Huge supporter of OWS. I totally agree with you. I think we all have to work together, and that includes the 47% of us who do not pay taxes and need to chip in and the 1% who we feel do not pay enough in taxes, in order to get through this mess.
See this demonstrates understanding with the OWS crowd and their gripes while still maintaining a basis in reality. It would also help if the non-divisive post to which you refer was not a show of support for a post that encourages the incarceration of people who greedily wish to hold on to their private property... just sayin.
Most folks make the same mistake.They think higher taxes = higher tax revenues.That's incorrect.The only way a govt. can really increase tax revenues is with economic growth.More profits means more tax revenue means more jobs means more people paying taxes and spending,creating yet more profits and more jobs etc.etc...exponential growth.
The highest level of tax revenues collected in US history occured during the GW Bush Presidency.Don't argue the point,just look it up.
We can't resolve the debt crises through cuts either.Cuts only occur in discretionary [year over year]spending.The US debt wasn't downgraded because of discretionary spending,which can be balanced out with tax revenue growth.The problem is social security and medicare,which can't be cut because the increases are guaranteed by law.Those propgrams will have to be dramatically reformed to get a handle on the long range insolvency issue that most worries Moody's and Standard & Poor's.
Yet Obama's is commited to preserving those programs as they are.And his "plan for growth" is the very definition of low expectations.No booming economy with it's exponential tax revenue growth.He is clearly out of answers,out of his depth and should be out of office.......pronto.
and evidently....thoughtless..........................:)
Sorry Greek folks! You had not one, but TWO elections during the course of 6 weeks. You chose to elect the same liars, crooks, theives and con men. What are you protesting about? YOU ELECTED THEM BACK INTO POWER and now you're unhappy that these slimy politicians DIDN'T keep their word, backstabbed the voters and betrayed their countrymen for yet another time? You don't say? The Greek people sadly are worthy of the horrible fate that has befallen them. Pack up shop and go back to the drachma. Have some self-respect and dignity for crying out loud! Break the chains of slavery!
Spain and Greece are shinny examples of just how the 1% GREED can destroy Countries and the lives of the people living in them..
Actually, Greece and Spain are examples of how redistributing wealth through social programs doesn't work.
As Margaret Thatcher said "It works, until you run out of other peoples money"
I think what 800 referring to is how the 1% of Greek avoid paying their fair share of taxes thus creating the country's deficit.
KevM,
"I think" is not relevant. When you know, then you can make your statement.
But here's what I know. And this is easily verifiable.
Greeks pay 40% of income over $95,405 (75,000 Euros) to income tax.
Sounds like their already paying far more then their "Fair Share" to me.
Paying taxes does not increase the deficit, even if you think it's not "a fair share". What does increase the deficit is overspending on government programs. Citizens need to be held accountable for their own budgets & stop living outside their means. We cannot continue to pay such a large percentage of people who bring nothing to the economic table.
The cause of the financial problems throughout countries of the world today generally have the same "root cause".
Those we elect to run our cities, counties, states, countries, etc., do not manage and spend the money of the group as if it belonged to them; they spend it like the fake money used in the game of Monopoly.
We would not be in the situation we are in today if the finances of our country were managed like we manage our personal finances.
Milton Friedman, Deng Xiaoping, and Ludwig Erhard would be proud, historian. Keep it up. Sooner or later, these idiots are going to have to face the truth that economics are the only thing that really matters. All the politics in the world don't mean a damn thing unless they can be paid for.
The one single post to date here that is on the money. congratulations "historian 393581". Now could we agree that austerity in the face of a recession is financial suicide. Austerity (and money management) need be implemented in times of growing and robust economies. Which means there is capital available to aid an ailing economy when the cyclical downturn begins.
It is interesting that people would rather let an entire economy crumble and fail. Lose everything. Rather than give up something for the betterment of all. Even if just a short time. All so that they wont have to be inconvenienced. Same thing here in the US. No one wants to sacrifice if it means they personally have to give something up. Even if in the long run its better for all.
The more that government takes, they more they spend. They're like a child with a dollar in their pocket, they just can't resist spending it. Especially since it's not coming out of their pocket. So how is confiscation of more wealth and property going to solve the problem?
Because government was created to protect people, not make money. Back to school you go.
The economy has already failed when you pay people to not work...get it. Obama knows this."when the public learns that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury the republic is lost." No enemy needs to invade and conqueor us..the drag of the welfare state has almost done it already..Has it not. Don't throw the kitchen sink at Obama....throw the kitchen table, you know, the one that every one with good credit and are morally responsible sit down to each month. Obama evidently has never sit down at the kitchen table..has he...
"Even if it's just for a short time"? You think the government will only increase your taxes for a 'short time" then shortly after, reduce them again? Dream on! Once they have your tax rate hiked, there's no turning back. Careful what you wish for.
Im not talking about raising taxes. Im talking about none of these people want to give up entitlements. "Whoa whoa wait a minute. I want the government to fix everything and still be able to work 30 hours a week and get all my other benefits without any sacrifice." People need to stop asking what they can get and start asking what they can DO to fix the problem. If the system they have completely collapses and the entire government falls. They wont be getting any of those things anyway.
Much of the problem is that in invention of the corporation included total lack of personal liability by the owner of the corporation. The owner (president, ceo, whatever) can pay himself anything even if it destroys the corporation and eats up any pensions or whatever owed to workers or creditors. A lack of personal risk can cause what should be criminal behavior in some powerful people.
It has also caused a world-wide unbelievably huge disparity in income
There are 1226 billionaires. Who the hell needs a billion? There are 11 million millionaires (and that doesn't count property). Many of those are multiple billionaires. Just one billion split among a million lower class moves them into middle class.
Think about it. Something is wrong here when the vast majority of the world works full time and makes less than $20k a year. I believe in rewarding excellence, or even luck..most started rich, but $1,000,000,000 for one person is ridiculous.
Maybe we should split up your assets and redistribute them? So typical of liberal Americans today wanting and demanding what others have. Here's a suggestion, get up off your lazy azz and go work for your money instead of sniveling and whining about what others have!!! Grow up!!!
Amazedandalarmed.......................Please re-do your math.
1 Billion divided by 1 million would equeal 1 thousand.
Are you saying $1000 dollars would lift a lower class person into the middle class?
Rallyforge...realize a fact or two.. that billion has to come from somewhere, which means others have less, or it requires more to be printed, which causes inflation for everybody.
I don't mind a few millionaires, probably many of them earned the money, in fact, millionaires really aren't all that rare anymore.
The problem is when the world governments become of the, by the, and for the insanely rich to the point that the opportunities for a decent lifestyle though hard work is stifled for everyone else.
metalman -
I notice amazed didn't address your math (you beat me to it) or question.
amazedandalarmed
I had this exact debate with a friend a few weeks ago. He believed anything over 1 billion should be taxed at 100%. The fatal flaw is the worth on paper does not equal $. Bill Gates may be worth billions but its an estimate based on share prices of Microsoft. If he liquidated all of his stock tomorrow his net worth would be a fraction of what is on paper (probably about 25%). The same goes for Warren Buffet, the Waltons, etc... Any "thing" is only worth what someone else is willing to give to aquire it. If you give away or redistribute that thing the value decreases.
No it doesn't. Economics is NOT a zero-sum game. Most wealth is "created" and is in the form of appreciated assets. This appreciation is in reality only a paper gain (unrealized gain) and does not take anything away from anyone. Example; If you bought a home 10 years ago, you saw your investment gain in value for several years, your net worth increased, but no money ever changed hands. Then the housing market collapsed, your net worth declined, again with no one exchanged. A persons net worth effects no one else.
amazedandalarmed, your entire post is based on a false premise.
Oops. Sorry. Thought that would be 10,000. So what is correct here? A billion would give 10,000 to how many? 100, 000 people? Sorry, never made over $60k (no college degree) I don't think in terms of millions and billions much.
...excessive profits often means somebody screwed a lot of somebodies. Overcharged, underpaid, and/or cheated with creative bookkeeping. They kept it by donating to the politicians who pay them back by accidentally allowing excessive deductions or loopholes in the tax laws. Hopefully, you aren't so naive to think that they give millions to politicians without expecting anything in return.
A person's net worth DOES affect you if it is gotten through manipulating the worth of stuff you control but don't use or actually have, by the inflation on the stuff just by buying enough of it to cause a minor shortage or exaggerating a natural disaster or shortfall...commodities trading, some day trading...actually those folks who get rich without making anything are the true villains, at least those that make something are hiring some people.
The underlying assumption of the above statement implies that wealth can only be acquired by illegal and/or unethical means. The vast majority of wealth creation in this country is by small business owners, who start a small company and grow it into a successful going concern. The number of people who's wealth is due to "manipulating" the system is minuscule. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is never a good idea.
Please define what an "excessive" profit is.
Coming to America soon!!!
AW YUP,coming to America,a town, a city,and a neighborhood NEAR YOU!
By the way to all you geniuses,calling these people lazy,well Guess What?This no longer is a question of Lazy people,this is a question of survival,and this was all planned.
Guess who planned it all? They're called GLOBALISTS!Keep spelling that name, because it's going to be an important part of your life in the very near future. They run every single BIG BANK,and Corporation on the planet.Now guess what else,they run?
They run just about all the Governments on this planet, and China is one of them.Why China is their bestest friend.Guess what other government they run? Why right here in the good old US of A!
You think the government running this country,is the same type of government it was 70 years ago? Well kiddies put your brains in park and think again,it's Not.It's run by the Globalist Bankers and Corporations.
It's a window dressing of a a government,that gives you kiddies the illusion of it being the same US Government it once was.All you citizens have bought into this Facade hook line and sinker.
Those two candidates running for president? Well kiddies,another ingenious illusion, brought to you by the globalist bankers and corporations, to make you think they're on opposite sides,when all the time these two clowns both work and are financed by the same bosses.They're called Puppets, not Candidates.If this is to big for your brains to rationalize,don't worry,it'll all manifest itself soon enough.
They,being the Globalist Bankers and Corporations, want the world to implode,they thrive on both physical and financial destruction.They love it, and you're all part of it.
Wait give it till April of 2013,you'll all are going to get a taste of what I'm talking about.Don't believe it,I do not really care, because I see through all the Crap,dancing in front you.
Have a nice day!