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Express Newspapers / Hulton Archive via Getty Images
British police examine suspects for the seven initiation cuts on the body that marked a member of the Mau Mau secret society in this November 1952 image.
LONDON — It is a court case that could reverberate round the world: Three elderly Kenyans are suing the U.K. government for torture inflicted by the colonial regime during the African country's struggle for independence.
If the Kenyans win — a ruling on the case is expected later this week — claims from others involved in the so-called Mau Mau uprising are highly likely and experts say it could set a precedent that would help victims of abuses in other countries that were once part of the British Empire.
The court case could also attract the attention of President Barack Obama. In his book “Dreams From My Father,” Obama said he was told by his step-grandmother Sarah that his Kenyan grandfather Onyango was held for six months in a detention camp by the colonial authorities. “When he returned … he was very thin and dirty. He had difficulty walking, and his head was full of lice,” Obama wrote.
Compared to his compatriots seeking compensation from the U.K., Onyango Obama got off lightly: In court, the two men and a woman described being savagely beaten, castrated, sexually assaulted, and witnessing killings during British rule in the 1950s.
Such stories are not confined to the former British Empire.
France, for example, has refused to apologize for its actions as former colony Algeria struggled for independence in the 1950s and early 1960s, with former president Nicolas Sarkozy saying “repentance” had “no place in our relations.”
And Germany only finally said sorry for a particularly extreme case of genocide by German forces in Namibia on the 100th anniversary of the massacre of tens of thousands of Herero people. Germany does pay aid to Namibia, but has to date refused to compensate the Herero directly.
The United States also has a colonial past with Spain handing over Philippines in 1898. Some, as noted by Filipino academic E. San Juan Jr., say the resulting Philippine-American War saw the deaths of about 1.4 million Filipinos while others put the toll in the hundreds of thousands. Despite this, Philippines and the U.S. have close relations and many Filipinos have positive feelings toward Americans.
More international coverage from NBC News
In contrast, ill will still exists in Kenya over British colonial rule, but in July, there was a potential breakthrough when the U.K. government admitted for the first time that civilians were tortured during the Mau Mau revolt.
Guy Mansfield, a lawyer representing Britain, told the three Kenyan claimants — Paulo Muoka Nzili, Wambuga Wa Nyingi and Jane Muthoni Mara – that he did "not want to dispute the fact that terrible things happened to you.”
However, the U.K. is still arguing that the events of the uprising took place too long ago to enable a fair trial to be held. The defense team expects a judge to rule on this argument this week. A decision against the government would leave it with few legal options.
'Children were killed'
Previously the U.K. claimed that the victims should sue Kenya, rather than the U.K., an argument the Kenyans’ lawyer, Martyn Day, dismissed as "nonsense" and that was rejected by a judge in a previous ruling.
In July, Nyingi, 84, told the U.K.’s High Court through an interpreter that he was detained for nine years during which he was beaten unconscious as 11 others were battered to death, according to a report by the Press Association news service.
Ben Stansall / AFP - Getty Images, file
A lawyer representing the U.K. government told Wambuga Wa Nyingi and two other Kenyans that he did "not want to dispute the fact that terrible things happened to you."
"In the years before independence people were beaten, their land was stolen, women were raped, men were castrated and their children were killed,” Nyingi said.
Nzili, 85, said he was abducted by Mau Mau fighters, but later escaped only to be arrested by the colonial authorities, who castrated him. His treatment left him “completely destroyed and without hope.”
Mara, 73, told the court she was beaten with sticks and sexually assaulted with a glass bottle containing hot water after she gave food to Mau Mau members.
Day, the lawyer, told NBCNews.com that “without any question … the [U.K.] government is very worried about the implications of any decision” in the case.
From ITV News: Tutu urges UK to show compassion to Kenyan torture victims
In addition to “many, many more people in Kenya,” he said he thought “significant numbers of groups of people the former British Empire who would be looking at that judgment.”
He said a victory for the Kenyans could help the victims of abuses in countries like Malaysia — the source of recent legal action against the U.K. -- Cyprus and possibly India claim compensation.
Day said some people in Britain “feel perhaps we are superior to the Germans and Japanese and countries where atrocities have occurred, but actually there is always a significant proportion of people who are pretty grim.”
France’s ‘horrific crimes’
The years leading up to independence for Algeria saw one of the world’s most violent and bitter conflicts to end colonial rule, which was the subject of a critically acclaimed film, “Battle of Algiers.”
So much so, that when Algeria celebrated its 50th anniversary of independence on July 5 this year, France was pointedly not invited.
During the 1954-1962 revolt, a million lives were lost and people were murdered, raped and tortured by both sides; the newly independent Algeria was left economically devastated.
“The horrific crimes committed by the French during colonization are entrenched in the memories of Algerians,” explained Farouk Ksentini, president of Algeria’s National Commission on Promotion and Protection of Human Rights. “We suffered like animals from humiliation, exploitation, expropriation and slaughter … France must repent for its crimes.”
Dominique Berretty / Gamma-Rapho via Getty Images
French security forces take to the streets after a riot broke out in Algiers, Algeria, in 1960.
Ksentini said he was aware of only one Algerian who had been financially compensated by France over the conflict. In 2001, a French court awarded an invalidity pension to Mohamed Garne, conceived after French soldiers raped his mother.
To date, no French president has said sorry. During an official visit in 2007, Sarkozy told two Algerian newspapers he was in favor of “a recognition of the facts, [but] not for repentance which has a religious notion and no place in our relations state-to-state.”
The current President Francois Hollande may shift French policy; during his election campaign last year, he condemned colonization and declared, “The truth must be said.”
German extermination order
In Namibia in 1904, German General Adrian von Trotha gave an infamous order that “the Herero nation must now leave the country. If it refuses, I shall compel it to do so with the 'long tube' [cannon]. Any Herero found inside the German frontier, with or without a gun or cattle, will be executed. I shall spare neither women nor children."
Fotosearch via Getty Images
A group of starving Herero survivors return after being driven into the desert of Omaheke by German forces in Namibia in about 1907.
The order was issued after a number of Herero rebelled and killed more than 100 German soldiers. There are different figures, but according to one estimate more than 60,000 people -- a significant proportion of the population that some put as high as 85 percent -- were dead within three years and thousands of Demara and Nama people were also killed.
Germany's return of Namibian skulls stokes anger
In 2004, Germany issued a formal apology. It also makes aid payments to Namibia, but has not directly paid compensation to the Herero.
Kuaima Riruaku, the paramount chief of the Herero and a politician in Namibia’s parliament, told NBC News that his people were still feeling the effects of the massacre.
“They destroyed the Herero as a people. They destroyed the culture and the manhood,” he said.
“We’ve lost a lot of things, our land and our property … our cattle and everything that was confiscated by the German government,” he said.
“Now we’re in the minority [in the Herero’s homeland]. We [would have been] the majority here if we didn’t fight the Germans,” he added.
Riruaku said for years Germany had ignored the Herero’s request for reparations.
“It’s taken more than 25 to 30 years, but now they seem to listen … there’s a little chance of hope,” he said. “Now we just talk to one another as human to human … they seem to understand why we are doing this.”
He said Germany should reach a financial settlement with the Herero “in order to … restore their humanity.”
Asked whether too much time had passed for such a deal, Riruaku said “that was the argument before … but the wound and the scar … are not yet forgotten.”
A spokeswoman for the German foreign ministry told NBC News that the German government “admits to the moral and historic responsibility towards Namibia, but the federal government does not allow for individual payments of compensation to representatives of the respective ethnic groups.”
'Kill everyone over 10'
Another infamous order in colonial history was issued by U.S. General Jake “Hell-Roaring” Smith, whose reported command to “Kill everyone over 10” during the Philippines-American War of 1899-1902 caused outrage in the United States.
Retired Philippines Navy Commodore Rex Robles, 69, told NBC News that “the most prominent issue against the Americans in the Filipino-American War was the devastation of Samar, where hundreds were killed in cold blood by American troops in that province in retaliation for an ambush by Filipino rebels."
Captain Jf Case / Hulton Archive via Getty Images
American troops fire on insurgents in the Philippines during the Philippine-American War, circa 1899.
"The issue of the ‘Bells of Balangiga’ lingers to this day. The sacred church bells were taken by the Americans as war booty and never returned,” he added.
He said the Americans were “illegitimate conquerors,” adding that the Filipino forces had “fought valiantly against the usurpers, but were faced with superior force and logistics."
However, Robles said that Filipinos in general have a “positive attitude and feeling toward America.”
“This is fostered by the U.S. image as liberators from the Japanese occupation [during World War II], as well as the all-pervasive propaganda stemming from the American propaganda machine,” he said.
David Anderson, professor of African politics at England’s Oxford University, said propaganda was used by countries to cover their past crimes.
The U.K. was a world leader on torture and taught other countries how to do it, he said, but had created “a myth” that such behavior was not “British.”
He noted similarities between the language used to try to legalize torture by the British in Kenya – euphemisms such as “dilution” – and the George W. Bush administration’s insistence that waterboarding was not illegal, but simply “enhanced interrogation.”
What is torture? Ex-CIA official renews debate
“It’s very important to have a broader perspective. Torture has gone on, kind of everywhere and every time.” Anderson said. “It’s not a novelty, and in conflicts, bad stuff happens, so it should not surprise us.”
Anderson, who wrote a book called “Histories of the Hanged: Britain's Dirty War in Kenya and the End of Empire,” said right-leaning U.K. commentators tended to dismiss “people like me” for “bashing the empire.”
"That totally misunderstands the point and that is not what I’m doing," he said. "The fundamental for me is if torture happens, then we need to do something about it."
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Leave a Comment:
The two most violent countries today, against weaker nations, are England and USA. Both countries are financially bankrupt, but still want to tell other nations what's best for them. Both countries throw money, they borrow, to other countries trying to buy friendship and love. A prostitute will tell you she loves you, as long as the money keeps flowing and the beatings stop.
Pay the Kenyans what they want, and then kick every Kenyan out of England. It's a model the USA should use. Why are we accused of being the most racist nation on earth, but every third worlder wants to emigrate here. They're all a bunch of hypocrites. Also, I thought Black people, because of the texture (did not use the word "nappy") of their hair, don't get lice. When are the people of the third world going to start emigrating to China or Russia? Why is it that they choose the West? Because they have access to all that is right with European and North American nations, including our courts. Stop immigration now before it is too late.
HonestJ..WE simply are not, the most racist nation on earth but we are right up there is the top 10. Most countries are racist and most people are but they don't want to admit it. Immigration is not the problem. You just don't realize that all governments are legalized criminal enterprises, no different than the Mafis or Cosa Nostra, they just pass laws to protect their empires.
I think most people think they are better then me. You're not? So I am better than you.
About time governments start to respect individual rights. Historical facts will no longer lie dormant. The Truth will be told and history will no longer be written by the 'victors'. Thank you Internet....
Well, Looks like we are being prepped for my apologies from Obama. Wonder where he will be sending the next boatload of aid money to next?
Conveniently omitted by Algeria. Does that mean the French can sue them? According to their logic yes. If the losers of every battle fought over land can sue the victors, I want to be on the losing side.
Are you British? If you are a American whose family has been in the US more than 2 generations, chances are you wouldn't even exist were it not for immigration. Were it not for immigration, the US couldn't exist.
If one person belonging to a group to which you belong does a terrible thing, should we punish you for the thing this other person did? Because that is what you are suggesting the UK do to all their Kenyan immigrants, except nobody did anything wrong. Nobody except the entity you are saying should do the punishing. That is very twisted.
Scott, you conveniently forget the French were the INVADERS of their sovereign country. So, is it any surprise the Algerians did not submissively roll over on their backs? How would you respond if a group of terrorists bullied their way into your house to take over?
I am not advocating the "tit for tat" torture that happened, but it is certainly understandable. I cannot condemn any person/group/country that is desperately trying to defend themselves against invasion.
Most of these horrors occurred half a century or more ago. Time does not excuse the atrocities committed; however, I think too much time has gone by to make a valid case. No doubt these terrible things happened, but at what point do we get beyond it? He said she said.
Colonialism brought many evils to lands already inundated with problems. However, colonialism also brought with it many good things. I'm not defending or denying anything, it was done as people of the times had always done. That's the nature of the world. As our generations get more "enlightened," perhaps we can move forward and away from these less than stellar moments.
In fifty years, how will our children judge us? It's something to think about.
Zheng He
I have to agree with you.
MDB123
In a very strange way, that makes sense.
If this goes through, I would hate to be a Roman. The Romans made slaves of most of Europeans and raped and pillaged them, including England for nearly 200 years. It had horrible after affects with these peoples, as none of them ever amounted to anything. Ever since, they've all been downtrodden by their past. Imagine what they could have been if they had never been slaves.
Exactly how far do we take this concept back, because northern Africans made slaves of multitudes of southern Europeans in the past. Maybe we can call it all even and move forward.
Does anyone have a figure on the total amount of foreign aid and charity to Kenya and other African nations? I'm certain it's many, many billions.
Zheng, the fact that you think we use foreign aid to buy either friendship or love indicates just how little you understand the United States.
We use foreign aid to get what we want. We hold the world and the oceans together and keep the peace. We couldn't care less whether you like us, love us, or hate us. We don't need you. You need us.
Kenya does not recieve foreign aid,have your facts right next time.
I smell attorney's fees. Does anyone else think it's strange that after 50 years, three 80+ year olds, decided to sue another country, for something that happened five decades ago? It began with Lawyers/ambulance chasers, looking for business/money. International Greed. At this point, even if the victims get a settlement, they won't live long enough to enjoy it, but the lawyers will.
disHonestJ, what do you expect, the colonnial nations, took/stole wealth, killed innocents, stole land, etc.. the least they can do is pay back and let them rob them some too, minus the killing. So kicking them out would be unfair, don't you think ...
hs321... "Does anyone have a figure on the total amount of foreign aid and charity to Kenya and other African nations? I'm certain it's many, many billions." First, can we "figure on the total amount" of resources stolen from Africa? Apparently you're not aware of the natural resources that exist in Africa that's exploited by the West... I’m positive the sums of all “foreign aid and charity” does not equal the
trillions in natural resources extracted from Africa…
HONESTJ- "nappy"...really? It would be nice to educate yourself before you make any more comments. Your complete and utter ignorance negates any point you might attempt to make. Thanks for playing.
Yeah a trickle
in the ocean compared to the multi trillion dollars of wealth that were stolen
from African countries in the name of colonialism.
I believe most
of the comments on this issue are misguided and ignorant. Please read the
article again and research colonialism in Africa.
You may not
know that a whole tribe was wiped out by the Germans in Southern African and
the German Govt. just a couple of years ago apologized for the atrocities they committed.
Please educate
yourselves before you make such sweeping comments!!!
This is about the
injustice suffered by a group of Kenyans for which they are now seeking
justice. We are still trying perpetrators for the Holocaust why can't we try
and then seek justice for Africans who suffered from the worst similar crimes.
What's next: Aztecs suing Spain; Palestinians suing Israel; Iraq, Mexico, Viet Nam, Nicaragua and others suing America?
In fact I'm suing and deeply involved in a personal injury case and am currently looking for a lawyer and a defendant.
As far as the US is concerned, we gave Kenya $459 million dollars in foreign aid last year according to the United States Department of State. http://foreignassistance.gov/CountryIntro.aspx
Marxo, good idea! Kenya is #9 of the top 10 countries receiving foreign aid from the U.S. and almost 2X that from other european countries. I see Hal just posted last years #'s but the U.S. averages $690million annually.
To all the peole complaining that this was so long ago...
What about the fact that the US just spent the last 10 years killing over 80,000 women and children in Iraq?
That is strictly for American projects like gay-rights,HIV control or such nonsense,military help to handle american enemies,but not to budget support or directly to the government.It is usually through USAID.97% of Kenyan budget is internally supported,with a debt ratio of less than 40%,for a country with no minerals. The american aid is for American projects only, and there would be no effect if the aid is stopped except a few deaths from HIV among poor villagers and Malaria,but will not affect anyone else,otherwise,from 1992 to 2004,Kenyan did not recieve a cent even from the IMF nd World Bank
Zheng He- Tell us what a lovely time the people of Tibet are having with a chinese knife at the throat.
Zheng-he, what a complete and utter joke, Chinese economic imperialism is the worst of its kind in a current or historical context. The Chinese don't give money they give things, things built by Chinese companies and workers providing next to zero economic benefit to the locals. Then they rape the country for its natural resources leaving ecological waste and devastation behind. This in a time when we fully understand the consequences of your actions. Within 10 years China will be the most hated country int he world and the rest of the world will combine to pummel them back into obscurity. The country simply does not have the social mindset to play nice with others and your children will pay for it.
As for the Phillipines, they do not hate us today because the incidents mentioned in the articles were not only against the USA. It is a very common myth the Phillipine Insurrection was solely a fight for independence against colonial oppressors. The insurrection was against both the colonial and local authorities and remnants of it are ongoing as we speak. The bulk of the locals were against the insurrectionist then and still are today. Nice try though attempting to make the USA look bad....
zapper45701 said it best in post #1.9.
'Nuff said.
Zheng he - sorry, I'd say you are mixing the past and the present in your assessment. If you are speaking of killings during the Philippine struggle for independence, you are speaking of an era more than 2 generations in the past. In 1935, the Philippines were granted commonwealth status, with a planned transition to full independence. This was interrupted by WWII, but the Philippines did attain independence directly after the war, in 1946.
In present times, the only questionable war one could site would be the Iraq War, which may have been an unnecessary and reckless endeavor by the United States, but was also, unquestionably in the long term interests of the majority of the Iraqi people.
The war in Afghanistan? This was unquestionably a war of necessity for the United States, and whatever the level of civilian casualties there, they cannot hold a candle to the killings in the now divided nation of Sudan, or in Somalia.
Great Britain? This nation too, is unquestionably guilty of excessive brutality during the colonial era, but in present times, I can think of no military involvement by Great Britain which justifies your remarks.
I cannot speak to the financial solvency of either Great Britain or the United States. But neither nation could be as bankrupt financially as are you intellectually.
dman - while the initial phase of war in Afghanistan can be seen as justified, dragging it on for another 10 years is most certainly neither warranted nor smart, as current events clearly show. And in Philippines American atrocities and concentration camps directly led to over a million civilian deaths. Americans acted there not better than Nazis did 40 years later in Eastern Europe.
Why are these stories ALWAYS anti-white? We are the only people invading other countries? Over time how is land claimed through time? WAR! Has there EVER been a different way, a peaceful way? NO! To blame this soley on white aggressors, is to know little on how the world really operates. I remember reading on how peaceful the African continent was until the bad white people showed up. Oh yeah, that's not true!
The English queen is yet to apologize for Femine of Bengal caused during colonial rule. She is yet to apologize for Jalianwala bag in Punjab.
It's going to be not so pleasant when India starts demanding apologies to the English queen. Only time and death is going to be on her side before that happens.
Anyone see Obama 2016? Stinks of Obama's denigrating USA and others because of his Anti- Colonialism sentiment. I guess he's looking FORWARD to a new job of representing "clients" with old grievances.
Didn't the Queen apologize to Ireland recently?
Did the Russians appoligize for killing 2 million germans after World War 2? What would happen if they sued The Russians? Please stop laughing and you will get my point!
Karen - no one with half a brain went to see the infomercial "2016". Good grief.
Max - First off, my remarks were in reaction to Zheng He's remarks, imputing that the U.S. and Britain were the primary aggressors in the world today. It was not intended as a blanket defense of every aspect of our current strategy in Afghanistan.
But, taking your remarks at face value: we had two legitimate objectives in invading Afghanistan. One was certainly to capture and kill Osama bin Laden. The other was to establish a stable and responsible government in Kabul, which would not act as a host for terrorist groups in the future.
Until Osama bin Laden was captured and killed last year, the first of these goals remained unmet. Though he was found [and killed] in Pakistan, I would argue that our strong presence in the region was directly responsible for this blessed success.
As to goal number 2, if George W. Bush had not turned our attention away from Afghanistan and towards Iraq, it might be that this goal would already be achieved. What was not smart was not finishing what we had started in 2002, because in 2009, we had almost all of it to do over.
What's done is done, and we cannot go back to 2003 and change the decision made to let Afghanistan drift and chase rumors of WMD in Iraq. Today we have probably done all that we can to stabilize Afghanistan, and it is time to leave. But nations cannot turn tail and just run. We need to make an orderly exit, which is what we are doing.
Again, my remarks were centered on Zheng He's claims about U.S. and British actions today, as in the here and now, not 80 or 90 years ago.
Beyond that I dispute your claim that we behaved as badly as the Nazis during WWII. Whatever the civilian death toll, and estimates of the actual numbers of civilian dead range from 200,000 to 1.5 million, the purpose of U.S. actions was control, not extermination.
By contrast, the Nazi's avowed aim with regard to Jews and other "undesirables", was extermination, and the death toll was far higher. We all know from our school days that between 6 and 8 million European Jews were systematically murdered. But there was also widespread starvation and random brutalization which killed millions more. It has been estimated that the post-WWII population of the USSR was over 20 million less than it would have been if the war had never occurred.
I'm all in favor of historical accuracy regarding the actions of the U.S. and other colonial powers. But I do not support shrill or poorly vetted claims regarding past atrocities, nor do I particularly respect attempts to mix current events with occurrences of a bygone era.
It has become a lawyers world...not ours. Anything for free money, I am to be held responsible for what my ancestors may or may not have done?
The idea of getting "even" for atrocities from decades ago is nothing more than a group looking for a free ride instead of pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps...........what is next in this skewed world?
I remember reading as a child, the Mau Mau used to attack white farmers. They would tie them to fence posts, slit open their stomachs, so their intestines would fall on the ground, but they were still alive, and then the Mau Mau would bring starving dogs there to eat the farmers intestines, while the farmer was still alive. I think the Mau Mau should compensate any family members still alive. Or at least apologise for the atrocities they committed. Sound fair? Not hardly. Give the murdering bastards a kick in the a$$, and send them on their way, to the cemetery.
This whole concept is ridiculous. Vengence is mine says the Lord !
We all know what happened was terrible. However you can't punish the decendents of those that committed the crimes. Too much time has passed. These autrocities took place so long ago that most if not all of the people that committed these acts are dead. It would be like if one of your ancestors from those days killed someone and a decendent of the person who they murdered tried to sue you for your ancestors crime. It is comparing apples to apples because the taxpayers of whatever country is sued are going to bear the burdon for whatever punitive damages are assessed. It's like when someone sues a school for something that happened 30 years ago, when the entire staff and school board is not the same. It makes no sense.
Pay the Kenyans what they want, and then kick every Kenyan out of England. It's a model the USA should use. Why are we accused of being the most racist nation on earth, but every third worlder wants to emigrate here. They're all a bunch of hypocrites. Also, I thought Black people, because of the texture (did not use the word "nappy") of their hair, don't get lice. When are the people of the third world going to start emigrating to China or Russia? Why is it that they choose the West? Because they have access to all that is right with European and North American nations, including our courts. Stop immigration now before it is too late.
You are crazy,according to government statistics,the majority of Kenyans in the UK are white and Indian.African Kenyans in the UK are entirely professionals especially doctors,who have been invited here and students from wealthy families,richer than an average Briton with no intention of staying,though home ownership among Kenyans in the UK is at 88%. These were war crimes created by the British,who had been invited and made the 'blood-brotherhood convenants' with the Kikuyu and Maasai nations but later turned to enslave and kill them for their land. The Kikuyu nation wanted equal access to their land and are happy to have won it back. And before you post your ignorance again,look for any 'Kenyan' immigrant who just wnts to be in the West and prove that they exist. They had better live in poverty in their land,than make money as slaves in the west. And yes,Russians and Chinese are not as racist as the British,and that it why they are many Africans there,but always go back to their after their visits because the governments respect them as human beings
Marxo... I "think" I know what your trying to say and there is a element of agreement that many Kenyans took advantage of present day politics and improved their standing. However keep in mind (as to proof of Kenyans us immigration)... It is actually quite large and you forget who is President of the US NOW. No nation has given more.. no nation has as many foreigners living within it's borders. The US made a "nation within a nation" the ONLY one of its' kind in the world, for Native Americans. As far as the Civil Rights movement.. People of color will "still" have a struggle but it is no where near the "2nd Class" status that is employed in China and Russia for segments of populations and Croatians as well as the "outdated" Cast system in India.
Also, for a bit of historical reference. The US as a nation has only been around for 250 yrs (rounded). We experienced what Germany during the atrocities of the Germanic tribes to WWII, China during the oppressive Ming Dynasties as well as the Northern China Mongolia, European rule during the dark ages and the Czars to include the Fractured Africa with so many dialects, languages.. it does not take a genius to note there is no course for a unified Africa... They been enslaved and have been the slaver for thousands of years, within that 250 yr time frame. America AS A NATION is no where neer it's zenith.. and no where even remotely close to the other nations THOUSANDS of years of history both in glory and atrocities.
It does not excuse "sins" of the past but I'm glad I'm American...African American... and A Christian... I think many here sometimes "nestled" in your own histories and knowledge forget how we got the freedoms we do have... What you realize is that their is NOT ONE nation that is exempt when it came to expanding borders or influence of "sins".
"Don't give me reparations for slavery of the past.. Give me freedom, equality to live today."- Flame
Joh_8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. - Jesus (kjv)
HonestJ,
"I thought Black people, because of the texture (did not use the word "nappy") of their hair"
May I point out to you that you did, in fact, use the word "nappy"? You just used it in parentheses rather than in the main sentence. Anyway, I agree with the British government. It seems to me that there should be a statute of limitations on anything other than murder. And these people who are bringing this lawsuit were obviously not murdered.
Obama did not choose to be born in the US,it was his birthright as a son of an American woman. There is nothing 'Kenyan' about him,unless the Luo blood in his veins and Luo nilotic intelligence from ancient Egypt.He is of Luo nationality,Jok Owiny or Joka Jok,but does not give him any relation to Kenya. To be Kenyan he had to apply for it like any other Kenyan does at 18,In fact Kenyan Birth Certificates indicate 'This document is not proof or guanratee to Kenyan citizenship'.
I can't imagine China, or Israel, or any country capable of competing in the international system doing this.
Flame77_7 excellent! I do however have to ask you,
related to your last statement, it is a contradiction
Political correctness separates us from equality! I think you included the African-American in your statement to show you are a black American but it wasn't necessary, your final comment hints to that fact. You are a fine American no matter what variety you are, I'm Heinz 57 myself.
This comment is not intended to be political, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. died with a dream for his people and his country. Most of us have worked hard to help make that dream a reality. We saw great promise when we as a nation put our 1st non white person in the highest position in our land, only to be disappointed. I will not comment on any issue but when this individual was criticized negatively (no matter right or wrong) for his performance, the race card was always thrown out. This President and his followers have done more to set back equality in 3 1/2 years than all the positive gains we had made since the death of Dr. King. There is still hope for us, you have shown that in your comment. Thank You!
Paul - you of course have your opinion, but I wholeheartedly disagree with the "setting back equality" statement. It is not President Obama who has done any setting back, rather, others with a "problem" have brought THEIR issues to the forefront. It's great YOU don't have a "race problem", but you are kidding yourself if you don't think the crazies came out when they could not "deal with" having a President who was ethnically different than themselves - especially one who has African roots.
I wish the President was perfect, and everything was just hunky dory, and the that the behemoth that is the American Economy could have just turned on a dime and gone up, up, up. But it's not a perfect world, and while things are getting better, as the world economy slows - we will all be affected and had best pull together to avoid harder times.
It is doubtful that all these Western countries could afford to pay retribution, even if they wanted to.
So how far back do we go? There have been 'atrocities' committed by virtually all groups throughout history, and slavery has been common for thousands of years, so how do we 'compensate' without offsetting claims? If the Germans pay for the massacre in Namibia do they get a counter claim against the Namibian tribe for killing German soldiers? Do the descendants of victims of Roman atrocities from 2000 years ago deserve compensation? Do the Chinese have a claim against Japan for the 22 million Chinese civilians massacred by Japanese soldiers in WW2? Do the Russians have a claim against Germany for the nearly 20 million Russian civilians killed in WW2? Do the Tutsi in Rwanda have a claim against the Hutu for the massacre of 750,000 Tutsi in the civil war in the 1990s? Do African tribes have a claim against Saudi Arabia for taking slaves over the last 2000 years - into modern times? And what about the Spanish, who have blood all over their hands?
happy, did you not know that the crazy's would come out? I did not vote for him, nor do I agree with his agenda but does not make a racist. I wasn't disappointed when he was elected President (didn't care for McCain either) because I was given hope that this country had risen above it's petty prejudices. You don't have to agree, that is what makes this country great, we are free to express our opinions openly. My disappointment is that this man, our leader, did not have the strength, courage or leadership to rise above the blame game, name calling and class envy to knuckle down and set a direction for this country and it's people to be self reliant and independent. Clinton was correct, no one person can or could have gotten us out of the hole we are in, in 4 years but you damn sure can't when most of your energy is spent blaming others. We all know there were problems and finger pointing goes in all directions for many years back, that is all water under the bridge, whose fault it was does not fix the problem. It is going to take leadership and courage, thus far we have seen neither from this President.
It has become a lawyers world...not ours. Anything for free money, I am to be held responsible for what my ancestors may or may not have done?
The idea of getting "even" for atrocities from decades ago is nothing more than a group looking for a free ride instead of pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps...........what is next in this skewed world?
You make a valid point Roy Wilson-which is why I agree with a nation issuing an apology for past wrongs, but disagree with the idea of making a monetary restitution. Every nation/group, due to something in their history, would owe restitution (some to multiple different groups).
Paul..."can't when most of your energy is spent blaming others"... President Obama has NOT done that, though. The economy is improving. Our 401k is recovered, and then some. Economically - we are better off, but then, those who are only "middle class" with minimal education, and the poor, have been hurt far worse job-wise than the better off. (Despite Mitt saying $200k-$250k is middle class - the Pew report puts a family of 4 being middle class at just under $70k.)
Have the Demo party defenders called out the Repub previous admin? Sure. Is the Prez perfect? No, and no one said he is. Better than what the Brits dubbed "Mitt the Twit"? Absolutely.
All this nonsense and character assassination smacks of those having a problem with specifically those with African ethnic roots. If they want to stick to issues, great - but it is plain to many that a certain element still think he is "uppity" - and hopefully they are mostly old timers that will just die off from old age. And we can move on. Most young people today - in the US - are "over it" on racial issues. Half my family is "some shade of brown", college educated, and professional. Works for us.
I'm all for giving aid to some of these former colonies though. With all the economic woes the West faces, job loss, Euro problems - it would be better if these poor nations got aid and kept their citizens at "home".
well said
More than likely Obama's grandfather went off on a six months bender. Hanging out with a bunch of lice ridden sleaze bags getting hammered on whiskey, beer, and whatever else they drink in Kenya. Probably got married to a few different women too. Just like his son that came after. I wonder how many times he used the detention camp alibi to cover his ass?
Alright!
"You make a valid point Roy Wilson-which is why I agree with a nation issuing an apology for past wrongs, but disagree with the idea of making a monetary restitution."
The colonization was all about money, it was all about occupying another nation and plundering their natural resources and exploiting their people FOR A PROFIT. Do you understand that the reason many of the countries of the southeren hemisphere that are poverty stricken today are that way due to the trillions of dollars worth of natural resources that the colonial powers stole from them over the past 3 centuries? Enough gold and silver was taken for the mines of central and south America and shipped to spain and england to build three solid silver and gold bridges from Brazil to Spain. Millions of indigenous people died while being used as slave labor working 24/7 in those mines. And you have the gaul to say a simple apology is fine? These countries that we call "thrid world" would not need foriegn aid or not need to illegally imagrate to the north had the north not robbed them of their wealth. Still to this day, the amount of money that is taken from them dwarfs any foriegn aid we pretend to give them, it is such a large number that the only way I can make someone like you understand it is to break it down into seconds, $25,000/second is what it breaks down to. They are poor because we made them poor, they continue to be poor because we want them to be poor.
Considering there are people STILL ALIVE today who were DIRECTLY brutalized by colonial powers, those powers MUST apologize and give reparations.
That becomes hazier as the victims get old and die. Countries should not have carte blanche to take over other countries and batter their natives.
We were a colony once too, you know.
Sven: " Probably got married to a few different women too"
You mean like Romney's grand dad who was married to 6 women--at the same time! It cracks me up when some voters hate "gay marriage" but support a candidate who has first degree polygamy in his immediate family.
"Stop immigration now before it is too late."
Too late, you and your ancestors are already here...............
If anyone hasn't seen "2016,Obama's America", now would be a good time. Anti-Colonial(white) movement is gaining momentum. WW III The whole Planet vs. America. The United States can't be defeated by force, but lawyers will bring her to her knees.
RU Sure, is this an argument against the rule of law? What a frightening concept, since that's what America was founded on and is the basis of our freedoms. Perhaps you'd like to institute something like the Japanese internment camps of WWII? Good luck with that project! White power, huh, buddy?!
So now we will be punished because of things some guy did 100 years ago?? *sigh*
Spellchecker you are a liberal dumbsh*t. Go ahead fireup you racial rhetoric.
Why would this involve obama? He has already said most of the book is lies which he has contradicted since.
@ Spell checker. Does the word TORRIES ring a Bell? If you think appeasing your adversary will help, after they get done with me, they will come after you. Your Wife and daughters might slow them down, while you make your get-away.
Rockyroad - there is no precedent in this country for payng reparations to people who were not directly affected by wrong-doing. Japanese-Americans were paid reparations for mis-treatment during the war but it was the citizens who had actually been rounded up and held who were paid.
Purely unadultered lies based on the paranoid victimization complex of the Far Right Extremist in our midst. If you believe any of that drivel you need a straight jacket and a padded cell.
Pat Go
The sequel book of lies: "Dreams Turned to Nightmares of my Father". Now he has to admit his father was a terrorist. Ever hear of the Mau Mau uprising in the Congo, 1960s?
Hey PIG
What gives with the Far Right Crap? Who said ANYTHING about that sort of stuff. Have you been Ober Programed by the obama clan to the point where that is the only way you can answer a question or interact with a discussion?
And yes I know it will make you feel better so go ahead, Call me what ever you want... It might help with your inferiority complex....
@ R U Sure, yes I am. Some middle eastern cleric said about thirty years ago, to defeat the US, a major war could not be won, but with continued smaller wars, we could bankrupt the US. It seems to be working. Iraq, anyone?
Obama is one big lie. His real father is the communist Davis who taught Barry communism and introduced him into the communist infrastructure in the US. Just look at the photographs of Davis, Obama, Sr., and Barry, aka Barrack and this will become clear. The 2016 movie is totally wrong and provides fodder for the anti-colonialist movement.
I listen to "World Have Your Say" on NPR often. I've heard numerous times the anti-colonial/white/westerner theme from commenters on the show. It is real and if you think much of the world doesn't have it out for the the west (Europe and America), your ill-informed and/or disillusioned.
2016 was an infomercial that played to the choir. It was paid for by "conservative" groups - and even the dolt (Asian Indian ethnicity) who put it together said he rejected the whole colonialism bull premise.
Google the world population, "caucasian" is a small minority, get over it. And "Arab" is in that classification, fyi, just not "Anglo Saxon" white. The demographics of the US are putting the population, in about 50 years, at "some shade of brown" as the population majority. We are all out of Africa, look at National Geographic's Human Genome Project - some did not leave, but 50-60k years ago, the rest of us came out of there - follow the chemistry - DNA.
jack from Jax:
The Mau Mau Rebellion was in Kenya in the 1950s.
There have been plenty of uprisings and atrocities committed in Congo/Zaire/DRC over the centuries (read "King Leopold's Ghost" by Adam Hochschild for a little info on how the Belgians conducted themselves as colonial masters), but the Mau Mau, and the Brits for that matter, weren't part of them.
The West inflicted horrors of all sorts on their colonial populations. Native lives were cheap, the land and resources were viewed as the Property of (insert appropriate sovereign here) and there for the taking with no thought given to the environment, the people who depended on those resource, or the future, and the "masters" viewed their subjects as lesser beings. All of this is fact, documented beyond a shadow of a doubt.
But human history is FULL of cruelty, exploitation of the weak, taking resources by force, and any other examples of man's inhumanity to man you care to add. Allowing lawsuits and judgements for "damages" in these cases is to tread a very slippery slope. Who amongst us is innocent? If you look, and you don't even have to look hard, you'll find some instance of barbarism in the bloodline of almost every ethnicity in every country.
The right fringe has tried so hard to paint Obama as some foreign Manchurian candidate, when, in fact, he's an American just like you and me. We all descended from people in other countries.
I'm no more following the route of my grandfather than Obama is.
Give me a break with all the conspiracy theories. If Obama were trying to destroy America, why would all his efforts be leading to job growth and record stocks on Wall Street. What a failure as a Manchurian Candidate!
R U Sure..........R u Sure?????????? Why would the planet vs the US.......we practically support 1/3 of the planet's countries.
Oh, ya, since our ancestors did something that was accepted in their time and had the cooperation of competing native tribes selling each other into slavery and so on, we owe them a free ride forever and ever.
NOT!
I cannot and will not apologize for something my ancestors did, I didn't have any control over that.
These whiney countries that now have their independence from the colonial 'bastards' now flounder and their people still kill each other off in wars and violence just as they did for centuries before colonization. They got what they wanted, violence and death at their own hands. They now have no-one more to blame except themselves.
That's the problem, the favorable numbers are merely cooked up by a sympathetic media to try and support their 'god' Obama. The current status of many financial markets are artificially propped up while the value of our money evaporates and leads us ever closer to high inflation and bankruptcy. In history, no currency war like we are in right now has ever turned out favorably.
This could set a frightening precedent. Where will it go and where will it end? Can the Israelites sue Egypt for the torture they endured under the Pharoah? the Assyrians (if any can be found)? War is war, and life is life. If this lawsuit is allowed to succeed, most of the industrialized nations of the world may go bankrupt paying third world countries compensation for acts of war. Ridiculous. I hope somebody has some sense before this can of worms is opened.
tiredofthelunacy:
Yeah, that's right. Colonialism, like love, means never having to say you're sorry. So all these 'civilized' colonial powers should still be able to commit their atrocities on the Third World with impunity?
They are sorry indeed. . .
Why not go after the conquering african people who sold slaves to the U.S. 200 and 300 years ago? They were at fault as much as the ones who sold the slaves in the U.S. Different officials in government were at fault at different times in history. The ones who commit murder today, prosecute them. The U.S. let too many get away with murder for information.
Eric the Well-Read
So, does the USA go after Japan for Pearl Harbor or do the Japanese go after the USA for the internment camps and the Bombs?
I figured someone as Well Informed as yourself should be able to answer that question for us.
Although we disagree on the utility of foreign aid, Time-is-running-out points out the fatal flaw of all the "well-read" or sophisticated apologists commenting here about reparations.
Where does it end? I mean, surely the fact that an American Indian scalped and killed my great^5th uncle "Peaceful Bob" who didn't realize he was even farming on tribal land more than makes up for my family's accidentally taking their land. In fact, an additional cash payment should really be in order. Surely, murder and disfiguring a corpse is the greatest crime here.
Seriously, gents. Let's all focus on building a better future for our kids rather than focusing on our past.
@tireofthelunacy, as they rightly should go bankrupt. @linda BTW what do you know about slavery? You are quick to say Africans sold Africans. I am a product of slavery and I do not blame Africans as the Europeans created this atmosphere of sold or be sold with guns and amunition. Like they did in South Africa where they pitted one tribe against another to avoid ending apathied.
The thing that bugs me the most is this notiion that Colonialism was good for Africa. If it was that good what did the U.S. fought the American War of Independence?
Like the Germans, the British, the Portugese, the Belgians and French committed a lot of atrocities accross African and they should pay for it.
Colonialism was VERY good for the US. We actually got to the point where we thought we learned all we could from England (hey, we were pretty conceited then as now), and thought we could do things even better than our colonial power, so we moved on from them.
The reason many of the African countries didn't move on from their colonial "parent" governments in a functional manner is because the tribes were quite dysfunctional and brutal before the colonial power ever came in, and the colonial power, being self-interested and frankly, evil, used the existing dysfunction to pit factions of the countries against one another (i.e. border lines that divided tribes) to prevent unified uprisings.
In the end, existing African dysfunction must be resolved by Africans. The old colonial powers ARE trying to help, instead of hurt the process these days.
Don;
You need to get your facts straight. Slavery was common in Africa long before it cane to America. Slaves were a comodity in Africa between tribes. and it still is in some parts.
War always comes with atrosities; Uganda; Liberia; Mali, just to name a few of today's.
Don-
We DO pay for it. On the first of every month, when the welfare checks go out to support the "victims" of slavery, who are entitled to free food, shelter and spending money. Tally up all of the social programs that are spent on those who, like pigs in mud, wallow in their ignorance and poverty because of something that happened 200 years ago. That is a big dollar amount, all to pay for past misdeeds that did not directlyaffect anyone living today.
Oh wait, I'm a racist right? My grandfather was a slave in the middle east, came here, and now I am one of the evil "1%." How does that fit your narrative? Perhaps your people should have fought harder. To the victor goes the spoils. Go race bait somewhere else, because in this country, we can move up the ladder if we choose to. Or, we can sit around and collect public assistance because we have allowed ourselves to be mentally castrated.
Joe, To say you're racist lacks any rigor in explaining how misinformed you are, and I'm not one to fall back on that type of rhetoric. The basis of your idea that these events 200 years ago don't affect anyone today is absolutely wrong. African Americans, and women for that matter, have had an uphill fight in America. The law gives them the rights everyone should have now, but that doesn't mean that every other citizen treats them that way. The law merely gives an incentive to not discriminate, but it doesn't ring true to everyone. A lot of it has to do with opportunity and what one is born into. It's an uplifting story to hear your family escaped and moved up the ladder, but you have to understand that not everyone has even this opportunity. Further, you are quick to blame others who lacks the education to understand HOW to do this. This, in effect, is victim blaming and is not solution oriented. Just because you were given the chance to see how to move up (because of your grandfathers harder work), doesn't mean it can be so clear for many who live in poverty in America. I don't mean to demean your hard work at all, I'm sure you've done a lot to get where you are, but because someone utilizes food stamps doesn;t mean they aren't willing to do just as much work. It's just not that simple and there are other factors other than just working hard in order to escape poverty.
It is the rich and powerful in EVERY country who make the rules....and always has been.....everyone today who works for minimum wage is more or less a slave to these 'people'.......I say let's try a more direct approach to redistributing the wealth.
RealxDon'tDoit compares white European colonialists/revolutionists in America to blacks in Africa.
Then he states, "The reason many of the African countries didn't move on from their colonial "parent" governments in a functional manner is because the tribes were quite dysfunctional and brutal before the colonial power ever came in."
His comparison is fatally flawed. The Revolutionaries were themselves killers and exploiters of the Native American population. They were in fact imperialists.
Black Africans and Native Americans have never recovered from the murderous exploitaion inflicted upon them by European colonialists, including the so-called "American Revolutionaries." RealxDon'tDoit's argument is self serving nonsense that is not only untrue, but logically flawed at its very base. Not only does it blame the victim, ie black Africans, but it erroneously classifies the British colnialists as victims of imperialism when in fact they were perpetrators of deadly racist oppression of theNative American population.
@dreamjoe, We took control of our destiny and assumed the role of natives. You can't call Americans imperialists-we are now natives. After our revolution, the USA stood on it's own, and built a thriving, awesome new native country. It's taken us a few hundred years, but we're building a great, equal citizenry.
In Africa, black Africans were never displaced except in South Africa. At this point, black Africans are to blame for Africa's problems. If you read marxo's posts-he's Kenyan-the guy is clearly for oppressing gays.
(Marxo says Kenya receives zero foreign aid from the US. When another poster let's him know Kenya receives $600-some million, he says that only goes to support American pet projects of gay rights and HIV causes.)
Even on this very board, from marxo, our Kenyan poster, we have all the evidence you need that today, black Africans are oppressing black Africans.
Colonialism is messed up, and further messed Africa up. But today, Africa is responsible for Africa. Africans are great and capable human beings responsible and able to fix their own problems. Look forward and build a better future for yourself, or stay forever in the past, bitterly assigning blame for your failure.
Good point, I was wondering how I could sue England for the torture & death of my ancestors which lead them to the Americas in chains. Or better yet, what about Royal sanctioned prirates such as my ancestor by rape, Captain Morgan. Their crime, standing up to the invaders of our country & homes. Oh how about the Union army when their soldiers raided Southerns homes & rape the women & children along with stealing their food, burning homes & sending male children to prisoners of war camps. Oops, it was called war.
Time to move & quit seeking the free rides.
The point is Jay, that the black people of today are NOT victims of anything but their own perception of being so and refusal to work their way out of poverty. They are fully capable people who live in the here and now. Slavery was abolished 150 years ago and not a single slave from that era is still alive. All people in this society have an opportunity to fight their way out of a poverty situation with their minds and hard work. If you do not bother to take the opportunity or stand up to the challenge it is your own fault.
It's time for the 'entitled' descendants of slavery to stand on their own, not use the government as a crutch or sugar daddy in perpetuity.
Funny how it's called war when invaders come to someone else home/land to take what is theirs from them. That's not war...that's just justification for wanting something that does not belong to you. Native Americans, and the Japaneese (sp) have been somewhat rewarded for crimes against them, but whenever talk of restitution involves anyone of african decent, the great thinkers of the free world, see it as a never ending, complicated, blame game. Imagine for a moment that God gave different people certain land on the earth, e.g., Blacks (africa), Indians (America), etc. and someone decided they wanted what God had given these people, but they had to fight to get it. Would that really be considered war? Or, would it be called "In the interest of the current power, we want what God did not give us." So, we will take it, and we will justify it later, but we must have what is yours, and destroy your heritage, and everything about you, just because we can.
None of this is too old or too far back in time to do anything about! I was born in 1941. I definitely knew about Kenya and Algeria as a teenager and young adult as it was happening, just from reading the news right here in the United States. Not all of us are dead yet; you can't erase history quite that easily.
Money will not be worth anything the way Obama and Bernanke are printing and spending it.
America will be a third world country when Obama is done with it.
Send Obama, the Dictator, back to Kenya where he was born.
@jeffrey, tell me, what's it like to walk around with a head full of crap?
Jeffrey D Parks
I agree with you except, obama will not ever be thru with the USA, He wants to become DICK-TATER.
AWOL-746438
He doesn't sound like a Lib to me....
Jeffrey D Parks… First, Jeffrey if your “birth certificate”
doesn’t say Native American you’re not from here. Second, America’s economic crisis
didn’t start the day after President Obama’s inauguration, it actually started
when American companies/manufacturing outsourced jobs to foreign markets to
avoid providing employee benefits, abiding to safety regulations and paying
taxes… Since you didn’t know… Third, Correct!! America’s actual currency isn’t worth
anything because it's not backed by hard currency...
The scary part is that Jeffrey D Parks actually got voted up 10 times!
The major colonial powers such as Germany, England, France, and Belgium are guilty of more crimes against humanity than any other gang in history. They built their empires on the death, destruction, and theft of the humanity and weatlh or others. Hitler's Germany was very bad buy only lasted for 10 years or so. The colonial powers visited their crimes on others for many decades or a century or more. Almost all major conflicts we are experiencing today were the direct result of colonial crimes mostly those committed by England. The Middle Eastern turmoil is the direct result of England's colonial crimes that are now actions of the colonial successor, the U.s. It is time for the world to recognize the truth about the efforts of a very few to dominate, repress, and steal the pursuit of life, liberty, wealth, and health of others.
"efforts of a very few" Germany, England, France, and Belgium. Whew, whenever I see problems it's nice to know where to point my finger.
Makes you just want to march into Somalia and solve all their problems by saying "hold your fire guys, d@mn those French SOBs!"
Duggan-
You missed a few:
The Persians
Alexander the Great
Attila the Hun
The Mongols
Constantine
Charlemagne
Don't forget those evil Spaniards that took over what is known today as North and South America
True, Atlas.
Very few humans are exempt.
I remember reading as a child, the Mau Mau used to attack white farmers. They would tie them to fence posts, slit open their stomachs, so their intestines would fall on the ground, but they were still alive, and then the Mau Mau would bring starving dogs there to eat the farmers intestines, while the farmer was still alive. I think the Mau Mau should compensate any family members still alive. Or at least apologise for the atrocities they committed. Sound fair? Not hardly. Give the murdering bastards a kick in the a$$, and send them on their way, to the cemetery.
Uncle Ben, You're memory is selective in oh so an imperial manner. What you are dishing up is a lot of self serving imperialist propaganda. The "settlers" had no right to be in Mau Mau territory and were stealing land and killing natives. far more mau mau were killed then settlers.
You are proof that racist imperialist thinking dies hard.
Uncle Ben, may I remind you that the MauMau was trying to protect their home and families from an invader.
This sounds like a conspiracy by trial lawyers looking for that Golden Writ with a multi-million dollar payoff. The possibilities are endless. American blacks could renew their efforts for compensation from the U.S. because their g, g, g, grandparents were slaves. Central and South Americans could sue Spain for the action of the conquistadors during the 16th century. And how about the ancestors of the many thousands of people who were tortured and burnt at the stake by the Catholic church during the Inquisition? Yes, humans have done terrible things in the past. And these things should be remembered so they will not happen again. But those trial lawyers seeking to use history as their personal piggy bank should be laughed out of court.
[quote]Catzenjammer
American blacks could renew their efforts for compensation from the U.S. because their g, g, g, grandparents were slaves.[/quote]
And white people could sue black people because we were slaves to them.
The author of the article is making this out as a one way street, when in fact it is a two way street.
The "Spanish Inquisition" was in response to the Spanish Jews' conspiring with the Moors during their occupation of Spain for hundreds of years. The Catholics were essentially ruled by the Jews in the name of the Moors and their lands were taken from them during the 14th and 15th centuries. The Moors were driven out of Spain but the Jews were a threat to bring them back. Although the Inquisition was ugly, it is understandable and, maybe, necessary. The Inquisition continued until 1840 in Mexico and still affects American politics.
Matt343495 Waht alternate reality do you live in? Which white people were slaves to blacks?
Your argument is racist and wrong!
No one is mentioning our own native Indians...didn't we steal their country...all this is in the past...maybe there is an island somewhere to store lawyers....and prevent them from breeding
[quote]Mila-3663582
No one is mentioning our own native Indians...didn't we steal their country...[/quote]
No we didn't.
Matt: How do you get the Indians land was not stolen? Rounding them up and putting them on reservations would be confiscating their property. Which we should do in all wars, including the war on terror.
bobby2641
He is using obamas plan take from those who have and give to those who want.
[quote]
bobby2641
Matt: How do you get the Indians land was not stolen?[/quote]
History.
They weren't the first people here, and back then this wasn't a country, just a piece of land.
Native Americans should fight for their country back and expel all those immigrants and descendants of colonialsts who commited genocide against them.All those whose ancestors arrived to the US without a visa should be expelled and the native American should issue visas and citizenship to those who qualify tests for citizenship.
Matt: What or who's history are you getting those facts from? The tribes in America were similar to the countries of Europe each having their own territories. What you should do is use a little critical thinking about history.
"Native" Americans? Humans aren't 'native' or indigenous to the Americas. All humans here migrated here from somewhere else. If we trace human ancestry back far enough, American Indians and Europeans have a common ancestor. Like it or not, we're all distant cousins.
And according to archeologist, humans arrived here in waves. So should the first wave that arrived here get everything? That means a lot of "Native" Americans will have to pack and move back to Asia from where their ancestors migrated.
One Big Migration Spawned Most–But Not All–Indigenous Americans
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/07/11/one-big-migration-spawned-most-but-not-all-indigenous-americans/#comment-12703
“At least three major waves of migrants from Siberia hit the Americas, but not all of them have had the same reach, according to the findings,…”
And what makes you think the first to arrive came from the west?
Do tools belonging to Stone Age hunters found on U.S. east coast prove the first Americans came from Europe NOT Asia?
New discovery of European-style tools being heralded as among the most important archaeological breakthroughs for decades
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2107418/Could-tools-belonging-Stone-Age-hunters-U-S-east-coast-finally-answer-really-discovered-America.html#ixzz1v8ZW8Mg7
Matt -
You are incorrect on the fact that land was stolen from the Native Americans.
Here is just one example: Look up the history surrounding the Trail of Tears. Here's just a little of it.
Gold was found in Appalacia on Cherokee land. The settlers around there decided they wanted it and managed to convince the government that they should have the land. The government then went in with a treaty and instead of going to the tribal leaders, went to individuals who had no authority to speak for the tribe, somehow getting them to 'sign away' rights to the land. The federal government then forced the Indians to 'migrate' to Oklahoma in the dead of winter. Keep in mind that many of these people were children and elderly. It was a forced march, surrounded by Army personnel. No tents, many had only the clothes on their backs as they were rounded up without allowing time to collect their things.
Tell me, what do you think happened? Why do you think it is known as the Trail of Tears?
FYI - My mother's family was from the survivors.
As late as the 1950's children of Indian families were still being forcibly removed from their families and being forced to go to government boarding schools.
As late as the 1970's the federal government was forcibly moving tribes off of land that was guaranteed to them by treaties so that they could lease it out for mineral exploitation.
Since then, every court case that has gone before judges for treaty violations has been won by the tribes - and all because the federal government has a proven record of reneging on treaties.
Oh, and how do you know there were other people here before the Indians? Were you alive then? Just because archaelogists say something , doesnt necessarily make it true. There are too many holes in their 'theories', too many pieces of information that have been found that do not fit the accepted theories and so are ignored by many.
hs321: Good one. Now if we go back further. Monkeys, amphibians, fish, amoebas and of course cosmic dust. These are only hypothesises as is your migration theory. Ever notice how organic things deteriorate more rapidly in fertile soil than dry desert conditions? Dragons were real. The people pulverised their bones for magic and potions. Hypothesis!
Hypothesis? Established science based on comparative genetics, supported by linguistics as well.
However, the "Now if we go back further" part is interesting. Were the plants and animals not here first? All humans should pack up and leave it to them, as they were here first.
That is, unless you consider humans animals, which based on many of the behaviors listed in the article and by others, is fair judgement.
The mormons believe that the US "Indians" are merely a lost tribe of Jews... google that. But, doesn't make it so.
The North American Indians have been here at least 10,000 years (DNA). Yes, there was more than one wave. Possibly (DNA) some of the Eastern Tribes were in "contact" with Viking explorers centuries before Chris Columbus found the Carribean. (Named for the Carribe Indians.)
Don't people ever wonder why the Cherokee Nation, an Eastern Tribe, ended up in bfe Oklahoma?
"Into the West" has been playing on AMC, Sundays at 7pm, with next Sunday the finale - along with a new show "Hell on Wheels". "Into the West" showed some of the inequity in Native treatment, and all the broken promises.
hs321: Genetic markings is a relatively new science. It might be compared to alchemy of the 13th century in it's discoveries. However computer models and random samplings is not exact, so we might call it weird science. Speech and dialect can be mimicked or developed in similar octaves as to appear connected. If DNA is so perfected a science. How did O.J. get away with murder when they had a bucket of blood from his cut? Because it is not infallible and the information is dependant on what is put in. You cannot decipher or add variables not understood.
A little fodder for thought> Is a cloned animal an exact DNA, Genetic copy of original? NO!
A cloned animal IS an exact copy, genetically - that is what a clone is.
For the rest of the Animal Kingdom, we are a composite of the DNA of our ancestors - affecting not only how we look outwardly (just a tiny fraction toward that), but our temperaments as well.
Now the cloned sheep, Dolly, did have one issue that was bad - she seemed to age rapidly, as though her "mother's" DNA was at a certain set point, at 5 years old, that did not "restart" when Dolly was cloned from her cells.
For those interested in human DNA, and genealogy, there are several companies that work on this. And it can be very interesting. Family Tree DNA, Ancestry (dot com) are a couple.
happytimesharehereagain: Refuted your first sentence, didn't you? Dolly did not match life of mother? FLAW> meaning different not exact. DNA mapping is a fairly new endeavor with lots of pretty colors. However true scientific measurements are not done by numbers alone. That do not take into account the source or ingredients that are in the sample. Very few samples I may add compared to results obtained by program written with what knowledge? Guessing.
It seems that Martin Day (white) is looking make a bigger name for himself not to mention a bigger pay day. Why would this ambulance chaser even be allowed in a court of law is beyond me. I hope it get tossed out for stupidity. I thought the whole 'sins of the fathers' thing had long passed but I guess not. Some people just can't move on.
how do you move on for getting castrated, for the crime of having been in your anscetral land?
I remember reading as a child, the Mau Mau used to attack white farmers. They would tie them to fence posts, slit open their stomachs, so their intestines would fall on the ground, but they were still alive, and then the Mau Mau would bring starving dogs there to eat the farmers intestines, while the farmer was still alive. I think the Mau Mau should compensate any family members still alive. Or at least apologise for the atrocities they committed. Sound fair? Not hardly. Give the murdering bastards a kick in the a$$, and send them on their way, to the cemetery.
Hey uncle Ben, Why don't you stop repeating racist imperialist propaganda that you kind of remember from years and years ago?
You cannot get around that fact that the Europeans invaded Africa and treated the natives like animals. Many more natives were killed by Europeans than vice versa. The settlers who you nostalgically bleed for deserved whatever they got!
That was then, and this is now. That is how the world worked at one time. How far back and when is this going to end?
I don't care and was NOT a part of any of what went down when these practices were in use.
You are right. Pay them, then kick them out back to where they came from.
That includes any relatives of Obama. I don't care what happened to his family.
Nobody cares what happened to my family when the Russians took over and killed all of them back in the 1900/1940.
But then we are just white people. What happened to us is less in the eyes of Obama and the blacks.
They of course are the ONLY race that has suffered under the oppression of Colonial times.
I understand that you hate the President but did you read the article? It has absolutely nothing to do with Obama and only passing mention about the US and the Phillipines.
Sheesh, stop reading politics into everything. Believe it or not, the world continues to turn, people are born, people die, people just continue going through their daily lives. And guess what, the same will happen whether Obama wins the election or not.
dbs:
In a way it is.
One of the enduring myths of Obama’s ancestry is that his paternal grandfather Hussein Onyango Obama, who served as a cook in the British Army, was imprisoned in 1949 by the British for helping the anti-colonial Mau Mau rebels and held for several months.
Obama’s step-grandmother Sarah, Onyango wife, who is still living, is quoted in the future President’s memoir, as saying: ‘One day, the white man’s askaris came to take Onyango away, and he was placed in a detention camp.
‘But he had been in the camp for over six months, and when he returned to Alego he was very thin and dirty. He had difficulty walking, and his head was full of lice. He was so ashamed, he refused to enter his house or tell us what happened.’
In a 2008 interview, Sarah Obama claimed that he was ‘whipped every morning and evening’ by the British. ‘They would sometimes squeeze his testicles with metal rods. They also pierced his nails and buttocks with a sharp pin, with his hands and legs tied together. He was lucky to survive. Some of his fellow inmates were mutilated with castration pliers and beaten to death with clubs.’
But like just about all of what obama says, this has been proven to be a lie also.
"A new biography of Barack Obama has established that his grandfather was not, as is related in the President’s own memoir, detained by the British in Kenya and found that claims that he was tortured were a fabrication.
'Barack Obama: The Story' by David Maraniss catalogues dozens of instances in which Obama deviated significantly from the truth in his book 'Dreams from My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance'. The 641-page book punctures the carefully-crafted narrative of Obama’s life."
Everyone was tortured for the crime of being born black on your anscetral land. He was only lucky for not being a Kikiuyu. The denial of facts is due to the fact that he was Luo,nd hence Luos are not supposed to admit having been imprisoned for Kikuyu 'sins'.
Times-Running-Out- You do know that anyone can write a biography? In fact, I could write one that states your parents are first cousins which is why you grew up to drool excessively and f**k sheep. That does not make it true. Unless you choose to sue me for libel/slander I can say whatever I want to about YOU, just as so many cretins with the mental illness called racism and a computer are now writing "biographies" of our President.
The President does not take action against theses liars and manipulators for a few reasons: A) It would be a distraction from his job, you know, trying to keep the powder keg from igniting and endeavoring to stabilize our economy, B) While he certainly would win such a case, the money spent would not equal the settlement, thus wasting tax dollars. C) Most people are smart enough to see these books for exactly what they are; the same kind of nasty, muck raking drivel that has always sprung up to discredit powerful men of color, or powerful people of any persuasion whom others don't like. D) There is a thing called artistic license which allows the author to edit certain stories and remembrances into a more cohesive narrative.
I could go on and on, but I have had only one cup of coffee and frankly your BS is causing me to start the day angry. I don't like that. So be gone, you have no power here!
Human beings have been committing atrocities against other human beings since time began, whether because of race, greed for land, resources, religion, or whatever.
Reparations for wrongs committed in the past are not feasible in most situations. Some exceptions would be Germans returning stolen art work and such to the families of the victims of the Nazi regime ,or re-trying old men for lynchings and bombings in the South who were obviousy guilty but acquitted at the time by all-white juries. These things have been done, and rightly so.
But if official apologies will appease the victims of past wrongs who are still alive (or their ancestors), what harm is there in that?
And to those of you who say certain groups should be "sent back to where they came from" I say: Who are you to judge who should be here and who should not?"
People probably said the same thing when YOUR ancestors arrived here from Ireland or Italy or wherever.
Kathy Stuart
I didn't make that up, I am just posting the facts.
"During the 1954-1962 revolt, a million lives were lost"
Were did those features! There was probably 300000 civilians killed during the war in Algeria, many of them killed by the FLN (rebels) that tried and succeded to eliminate all rival movments.
"Farouk Ksentini, president of Algeria’s National Commission on Promotion and Protection of Human Rights": Algeria is a military junta and dictature, so I wouldn't give much credit to this so called "commission for Human Rights" (they killed 100000 of their own people in the 90's).
“We suffered like animals from humiliation, exploitation, expropriation and slaughter … France must repent for its crimes.” Most Algerian I know who remember the life during the french rule are nostalgic of this time. But this you can't tell it in Algeria or U will be in trouble.
"the newly independent Algeria was left economically devastated": what about the factories, agriculture, hospitals, schools, airports, roads, railroads, oil industry, we let them? Not because they didn't make anything of this inheritance, or were colonized and pillaged by their own army they can make us responsible of their problems of today.
Because they failed during 50 years to build up their nation, they try to blame us for their mistakes.
At least in the days of the french republic individuals had rights, they could vote (second college). By now, they probably would have win the same rights than people in mainland France (like black people in the USA).
I do not defend the colonial rule, it was unfair, but it was not hell, and there was rights and laws. And the french carried out great things, but did bad things too.
The Algerian people probably thought that after our departure everything would be easy, carelessness get the upper hand over hard work.
The Algerian goverment -todays President Bouteflika was already a minister in the first government of 1962- must assume responsability for his failure.
By the way, France and Englant should ask Rome to make amends for they did to us, and the Netherlands ask Spain, Russia ask the France, Poland ask Russia, Egypt ask Saudi Arabia, Rome ask Germany, ... And of cours Berbers ask Arabs in Aleria to make amends for invading them!
All will be settled in front of 'The Creator of The Universe(s)'( God, Yahweh, Jehovah, Jai, Allah, etc...what ever name you want to choose) on The Day of Judgement. All evil doers, black, white, Asian, Oriental etc. will spend eternity in HELL. All of you none believers out there who waste your temporary life here denying and debating this universal and absolute truth will see when the Angle of Death comes to take your filthy, rotten, worthless souls......the beatings will begin!
Isn't that supposed to be "True Believer", or is the "Ture" intentional?
There is no doubt that England should be held accountable for the atrocities it committed in Kenya, just as many other European countries should be held accountable for their ignoble pasts.
Japan should be paying China, the Koreas, and the Philippines for the brutality it inflicted. While Russia should be compensating the citizens of the former Soviet Union for their genocide.
Murder/Genocide should not have a statutes-of-limitations.
"Murder/Genocide should not have statutes of limitations"
Think hard about that comment. Like, Cain and Abel hard.
There are no such things as "Angel of Death", these are fairy tales for little children.
@max, only illustrating a point that murder is as old as humanity, and attempting to resolve it in the courts today without a statute of limitations is futile.
I remember reading as a child, the Mau Mau used to attack white farmers. They would tie them to fence posts, slit open their stomachs, so their intestines would fall on the ground, but they were still alive, and then the Mau Mau would bring starving dogs there to eat the farmers intestines, while the farmer was still alive. I think the Mau Mau should compensate any family members still alive. Or at least apologise for the atrocities they committed. Sound fair? Not hardly. Give the murdering bastards a kick in the a$$, and send them on their way, to the cemetery.
I suppose then, that England should sue for reparations from: Italy for the Roman invasion and occupation; Denmark, Germany, Frisian Islands, The Netherlands and environs for the invasion and occupation from the Jutes, Angles and Saxons; and France for the Norman invasion and occupation, who in turn could sue Norway, as the Normans had invaded France prior to that and were granted Normandy in return for peace. Not to mention the various Germanic states, Prussia, and the Austro-Hungarian empire for World War I and Germany for World War II.
Within Britain, reparations could continue with: Scotland, Ireland and Wales suing England for their various invasions and occupation; England could counter-sue for Scottish, Irish and Welsh incursions; the Picts (the original occupants of what is now Scotland) could sue the Irish for their invasion, who in turn could counter-sue Scotland and England for the occupation by Scots and English during the Plantation of Ulster in the 17th Century.
The list goes on and on ad nauseum.
At some point, we must begin to live in the present and not the past. Most (if not all) cultures at some time or other have imposed their will on others, and atrocities have been, and still are committed. Yes, we can address the atrocities of today, but to continue to blame people for the actions of their forefathers is simply beating a dead horse.
It's time to choose to move on.
When people are harmed they want justice, they want reparations and they want the one who victimized them punished. This type of legal action is no different: It is just on a much larger scale. Affirmative action, which so many people resent, is a form of reparation to repair the harm done by centuries of slavery and Jim Crow in this country affecting even the descendants of victims.
There is not enough money or resource on the planet to legitimately or reasonably compensate victims of the atrocities inflicted on subjucated and enslaved people and groups. And there is no way to really compel a government to pay money it does not have or want to pay if those judgements would bankrupt an entire country.
What will eventually happen is some form of national compensation designed to provide financial compensation through things like preferential treatment in trade, foreign aid, educational support, debt forgiveness etc. Individuals may win in court, but their actual financial compensation will be minimal. The real effects will be on the diplomatic/trade/travel/immigration relations between countries.
I remember reading as a child, the Mau Mau used to attack white farmers. They would tie them to fence posts, slit open their stomachs, so their intestines would fall on the ground, but they were still alive, and then the Mau Mau would bring starving dogs there to eat the farmers intestines, while the farmer was still alive. I think the Mau Mau should compensate any family members still alive. Or at least apologise for the atrocities they committed. Sound fair? Not hardly. Give the murdering bastards a kick in the a$$, and send them on their way, to the cemetery.
Luckily the U.S. figured out how to pursue its empire surreptitiously by installing dictators, engineering insurrections, paying off foreign leaders with "aid", and creating false flag events to justify the engagement of its military. As a result, the U.S. has been able to maintain a de facto empire in the Middle East without any of the resentment and blow back that the old colonial powers created for themselves.
Oh, wait.
Actually, by and large we have been able to maintain a de facto empire without occupying ground. It's pretty impressive.
I'm not certain the middle east resents the US so much as there's just a lot of frustration over unemployment, poverty, corruption and dysfunction at each level of government, poor secular education, lack of normal friendships between men and women, complete oppression/subjugation of women as a whole, lack of access to quality booze, really hot, crappy weather, and leaders who steal the country's wealth... what have I missed?
Anyway, the religious leaders, and often the political leaders who are in the US's back pocket, encourage their people to vent their frustrations against the USA-the far-away boogeyman who's keeping them down, rather than dealing with problems at home.
Millions of victims are left voiceless, and their own stories of hell are buried deep under the cold earth and ravages of time, all forgotten but perhaps to the all seeing eyes of Providence. The sins of colonization and weight of such barbarity and viciousness are incalculable. This is the burden that humanity partakes in and that threatens to further drag us down still. The good citizens of United Kingdom should herald these Kenyans as heroes. Their account is horrific and miserable; they humiliate themselves and relive the horrors while struggling in detailing the abuses they and their loved ones suffered. It is the opportunity as a nation, aspiring to join the brotherhood of Man, to exorcise the restless demons from the soul of nation. It will unify and heal them. The states that exploited their colonies in the past five hundred years have benefited in astronomical terms, in trillions and trillions. The penance at hand, in monetary terms, is a mere pittance compared to it, rather it is a symbolic gesture of admittance and goodwill, and taking every small but precious opportunity to make things right, and let the full account of their misdeeds be instructed again, in the court of justice. Otherwise, these atrocities will surely revisit and infect our society again and THAT will be the greatest tragedy.
CNN, African edtion would be a good place to expand your knowledge. Do think siding with these people will protect you?
Gotta side with R U Sure on this one, I think the greatest tragedies in Africa are quite indigenous at this point. Reparations in the form of aid are given quite liberally, and corrupt African power structures ensure they don't get to the people.
Many of the problems today are rooted in colonization, but at some point you've got to take control of your own destiny and be responsible for your own future.
I remember reading as a child, the Mau Mau used to attack white farmers. They would tie them to fence posts, slit open their stomachs, so their intestines would fall on the ground, but they were still alive, and then the Mau Mau would bring starving dogs there to eat the farmers intestines, while the farmer was still alive. I think the Mau Mau should compensate any family members still alive. Or at least apologise for the atrocities they committed. Sound fair? Not hardly. Give the murdering bastards a kick in the a$$, and send them on their way, to the cemetery.
Don't be fooled, this is not about money. These savages want a pound of FLESH.
you are the savage ,you Hitler
Defining people as "savages" is how the European countries were and still are able to justify colonialism and worse.
"The White Man's Burden" anyone?
Genocide and mistreatment are acceptable to us as long as we can convince ourselves that they are not really human, but "savages".
Sad...
I remember reading as a child, the Mau Mau used to attack white farmers. They would tie them to fence posts, slit open their stomachs, so their intestines would fall on the ground, but they were still alive, and then the Mau Mau would bring starving dogs there to eat the farmers intestines, while the farmer was still alive. I think the Mau Mau should compensate any family members still alive. Or at least apologise for the atrocities they committed. Sound fair? Not hardly. Give the murdering bastards a kick in the a$$, and send them on their way, to the cemetery.
Hey, Uncle - your reply button stuck on repeat?
I'm not sure that monetary reparations are a good idea in that this would undoubtedly set in motion a huge slew of ensnaring and crippling suits. However, apology is not a religiously based entity that has no place in state_to_state affairs, as the Far Right Extremist Sarkovsky has stated in his typical right wing hatred of everyone else. It is a secular admission of having done wrong. A strong man, woman, or nation should have no problem with that.
I agree. National apology should be the starting point. I think the problem is when the word "repentance" is used as that does carry religious conotations.
We need to stop apologizing and get back to kicking ass before we get ours kicked so bad we can't recover.
And i don't just mean militarily. Industry, economic, manufacturing and education!!!
Every race/nation has at one time or another been stepped on by some other race/nation throughout history. We are all guilty of it. The Asians, the Romans, the Persians, Greeks, the Africans, the Turks, the Brits, America, the Norse, we can keep going all day.
It's how we are wired.
But let's apologize to the Africans. Please....
I'm English and to me this is interesting but is very much part of history and is at best irrelevant. Personally I didn't torture anyone and was never involved in the Empire. If every country that's ever done anything bad to another country has to say sorry and compensate wow the courts are going to be busy. Frankly I would prefer to spend the money on hospitals and schools for people who are actually alive today and need help.
Personally I have never enslaved or tortured anyone either. My ancestors in this country don't date back far enough to have owned slaves in the this country either. Nonetheless, they had more rights and opportunities than the black citizens of this country and the benefits of that advantage accrued to them and their descendants over time. I started out in life with advantages in income, quality of education and social acceptance beyond those available to a person of color born at the same time. That is why reparation and affirmative action continue to be necessary: I don't have generations of disadvantage to overcome while others who are members of certain groups, do.
Affirmative action provides access to opportunity, a positive. Reparations are an insult to the past, and would be entirely counterproductive.
But you are enjoying the proceeds of accumulated wealth from the Empire,where every girl had to be taxed breast tax for merely growing breats,from India,cape to Cairo and Malaysia and the money used to develop the UK.History affects you too
Sure I am, but unless you were part of a tribe that only got raped and pillaged, and never did a little raping or pillaging of its own in the long human story, you are enjoying the proceeds of accumulated wealth from atrocity too.
Don't get me wrong, in specific cases with specific living people such as the story at hand, I don't have a good answer.
The Aztecs raped, pillaged and enslaved other local tribes for centuries. What do we do with their ancestors who come here for a better life? What "proceeds" should we take from them and to whom do we give them?
I think the Spaniards already extracted that pound of flesh from the "Indios" of Mexico, Central America, and South America.
@ Anita...So, next time you see a poor black person, give them the title to your house, or to your car. What right do you have to give away other peoples money? What right do you have to decide who was wronged, and how they should be compensated? Feel sorry for them? Give them your stuff, or do you not feel THAT sorry for them?
"The United States also has a colonial past with Spain handing over Philippines in 1898. Some, as noted by Filipino academic E. San Juan Jr., say the resulting Philippine-American War saw the deaths of about 1.4 million Filipinos while others put the toll in the hundreds of thousands. Despite this, Philippines and the U.S. have close relations and many Filipinos have positive feelings toward Americans."
"Spain and the Philippines!!??" This statement in itself demonstrates the continued insensitivity and racism of America. There's no mention of slavery. They were in denial during the 18th and 19th century as they are today. But the Lord isn't mocked and they'll surely pay.
Trogg was 6.5, 300lbs, and had a big club. Og's people were small of stature 5 feet tall. One day Trogg came to Og's village with his friends and killed all of the inhabitants except those who could run away. Now I want to represent Og's descendant's for reparations from that time until now. There is no proof but we know it happened, because it is human nature. Tall, strong people should pay short people for years of intimidation, and loss of opportunity, because of their size.
People never carry this point to it's logical end. They only carry it back to the point it supports their ends.
Two of the most insightful posts in this entire exchange.
The British engaged in Imperialism because they thought they were improving the lives of supposedly "inferior" cultures. That's the excuse that every Imperialist nation has used. The Romans did it, the British did it, and we in the United States do it too, whether we want to admit it or not. Some argue that the USA is not am imperialist nation, but we maintain permanent military bases in most of the countries around the globe. Ostensibly those are for defense but really it's to exert our control. The Libertarian web sites have all the documentation to prove this. The question is, when will our citizens demand that our politicians, in alliance with our business leaders, stop behaving like this?
Didn't they improve our lives? Didn't the Romans also improve life globally?
Good point, SteveR.
relaxdontdoit:
In some aspects lives were improved, but that does not make up for the atrocities and brutality afflicted a lot of times on the colonial nations. In some cases ancient cultures and languages were destroyed, and cannot be gotten back.
Most ancient cultures were barbaric, Tina, especially with their treatment of women and gays. The fact they are gone is NO loss. As for languages, many have disappeared, much to the benefit of humanity. The sooner everyone can freely communicate with each other the better.
You did the crime, NOW you must pay plain and simple. Sooner or later it will happen to the israelis also, the only colonization left in this 21st century. The crimes of israelis against the indegenous Palestinians will surface and will take down all who supported them...