All prisoners have a light on all the time in jail. Been there, done that.

That azzhole is a POS. With ant luck, he will get hit by a car soon. They trusted him, and he has proven to be capitalizing on manufactured corruption that he himself made up.

Not to mention that he is also a thief if he did steal documents. I suspect they are frauds anyway. The guy is not to be trusted; that, he has already shown the world.

Hells, this sounds a lot like the jail in Cozumel.... not that I was ever there.

All prisoners have a light on all the time in jail. Been there, done that.

That azzhole is a POS. With ant luck, he will get hit by a car soon.

with any luck, you'll get hit by a car soon, or at least wind up back in prison

Which goes to show the Pope is either clueless or complicit.

I'm thinking it's the second.

As the Vatican is an independent city-state, they have sovereign right over their citizens,and in any country. passing documents classified by your government to an entity outside the country is considered treason.

Thing is, the Vatican is also a religious organization, and is also morally accountable to the religious oaths that they profess to adhere to. This is one of those things where secular law and Biblical law collide; while one would think,they being a religious organization, that their oaths to God would supersede secular oaths, but apparently the Vatican is applying secular laws as it suits them.

"...he should receive a medal from the Pope."

You mean the Hitler-Youth Pope? The Pope that is at the CENTER of the scandal and illegal dealings that were exposed by the leaks? You think the Pope is going to give a medal to someone who's exposed him to be the criminal bastard the rest of the world knows he is?

Yeah, I knew you had to be delusional to be a practicing Catholic, but damn - THAT is some delusion you got going on there.

I was wondering when someone was going to trot out the "Hitler Youth" thing. Young people in Germany during WW2, my father included, HAD to belong to the Hitler youth. There was no choice. Criticize the Pope all you want, but at least be honest in your criticisms. He bears no blame for what happened to him as a child.

Nikolaus20, why would they want to be honest, they are only trolling on here to spread their hate for religion period.

We see how the Vatican treats whistle-blowers--locking them in a tiny cell with a blaring light on all day and all night.

And we see that the infallible pope doesn't know things he should have known. (We also know from past scandals, he doesn't even know how to Google something.)

And the argument that he HAD to join the Nazi youth doesn't wash. A truly enlightened being, which the church claims he is, would have found a way to avoid it.

As many people have already pointed out here, this is a bankrupt and corrupt institution. Why do parents continue to allow their children to be indoctrinated by the church?

Dan: Are you going to trash the Muslim religion now? Or are you afraid you will be missing a head at some point or get blown up. I am tired of the Catholic Church being attacked all the time just because they are an easy target and there is no payback like the Muslim religion.

This man was no whistle blower. Plain and simple he was a thief.

@Dan-542129

He should have would have could have found a way to avoid being compelled to join the Hitler Youth...

Some people are really absolutely 100% naive as to the ways of the real world as it was in 1930's Germany...or any other country for that matter.

No...being an enlightened youth...he should have would have could have ...found a way.

He should have his eyes removed for revealing confidential dealings. What is it with people believing their opinions or their beliefs lead them to reveal secrets. I would send this man to prison for fourty years for divulging secrets, criminal theft, and unjust enrichment. 130K check that he doesn't know how it came to be in his home, or a gold nugget, or a rare book. This guy is a thief who betrayed the trust of the POPE. I hope hell comes soon for this thief. He basically admits the Pope was confused at times, which is really just code for alzheimers. So he decided that since everyone else was playing the Pope for a fool, he would get his while the getting was good. Stealing from the church, stealing from his employer and stealing from his charge. This man has no morals and isn't even contrite about the theft at all. he's lucky our society is so ultra Liberal these days or he would have prayed to see any light thru his dark dungeon. look at this case not thru the lens of a church, but as a matter of theft. guilty as charged. Send him to the stoney lonesome. POS.

Wow Jamie--pretty naive.

Let's not forget the sexual abuse of children by not one, but many, priests....and that major coverup. Sounds pretty perverse and corrupt to me.

NO person is bigger than the institution they swear allegiance too. If you join the military, you keep your mouth shut and divulge nothing (PFC Manning). if you are trusted with confidential matters while employed you do not leak out those matters for spite, a sense of ones own morality or for money. Each case should be handled with a bullet to the temple. period. Whistle blowers in corporate america or wall street is quite different than The vatican or the US Military. Hands off when it comes to secrets and any rats found should be exterminated. No whistle blowers allowed here.

Uh Dom, great advice to a religious organization.

hey dom, those that would seek to enslave us (hitler, etc.) absolutely love unquestioning fools like you

"And we see that the infallible pope doesn't know things he should have known."

Dan, what exactly do you know about the Catholic Church, other than that you hate it? The Pope is considered to be "infallible" only when making official pronouncements on matters of faith, the belief being that God is always with His church, despite the shortcomings of those who run it. "Infallibility" pertains to that and nothing more; it doesn't mean that the Pope is always right, that he never makes mistakes, or that he knows everything. But go ahead, bash the Church and throw out uninformed "soundbites" because they sound good to you.

.... was that sarcasm? I certainly hope you are not serious. The Catholic Church is responsible for more atrocities against humanity than any other institution... .ever. Take a history class. Or Google for crying out loud! The logic here is... absent.

"The Church cannot/has not/ will not ever be corrupted, because that would insinuate the teachings of Christ are corrupt."

That's absurd. Even if Christ was the son God as he claimed to be - churches are still ran by humans - humans who are corrupt, greedy, and stupid. To suggest that everything the Catholic church has done is saintly is to deny historical and scientific fact. Seriously. Google... "The Crusades" or "The Spanish Inquisition" ....

"The Church cannot/has not/ will not ever be corrupted, because that would insinuate the teachings of Christ are corrupt."

So either that was some damn fine sarcasm - or the worst case of delusional thinking I've ever come across.

JamieLynnn, Humans can most certainly be corrupt, as can the institutions they run. Catholic teaching does NOT state that the Church, as an institution, can never be corrupt. It DOES state that the religious teachings of the Church will be safeguarded DESPITE the possible corruption of those to whom they are entrusted. Throughout Church history, there have at times been bad popes, cardinals and bishops, but there have also been saints like Francis and reformers within the Church to counter that, and to remind Catholics what the Church was meant to be.

The Catholic Church is the oldest church

Um what???? No It is not......please come back when U have FACTS to back up the rest of ur nonsense about the Catholic Church.....Thanks!!!

Let me clarify. It is the oldest Christian organization. Not the oldest religious organization.

Again, people can be corrupt. The Church is based off the traditions and teaching of Jesus Christ. When anything strays from the Bible, or from the teachings of the apostles, then there is room for corruption. The actual institution of Catholicism cannot be corrupt. People who stray from the core values of the Church can be.

Oh, and anyone can Google or read up on atrocities by ANY and ALL religious groups or organizations. Humans did things misguidedly using the name of a higher organization. Has happened with the Pagans, Protestants, and Catholics. Again. People are corrupt.Not the Church

Prosecuting a whistleblower violates every fundamental of the Church. The Church is based on blind faith. Blind faith is a good thing when the leadership is honest and caring for the blind faith followers.

On the other hand, blind faith under a corrupt leadership has lead to the worst atrocities in history. WWII was a recent and classic example of blind faith leading to unspeakable atrocities.

Former President Reagan was right when he said "Trust but verify" in describing our treaty with the Soviet Union. We obviously need some form of oversight of the Vatican.

but we are not talking about those other denominations/religions - we're talking about the Catholics.

"the church" is made up of people. It's not an entity.

Kaily: ???????what, the church is not an entity...........then why does the Catholic church have its own country......that's like saying the USA is not an entity and all of its people should vote on every move the non-entity makes

@ Jamie Lynn- The Catholic church is absolutely, most definitely NOT the oldest Christian organization. I can assure you the apostles and early Christians did not belong to the Catholic church. The church is based off of traditions. Whenever I hear any Catholic cleric talk about what he/she believes it always starts with" the Catholic church teaches" instead of "The Bible teaches." Could it be that what the Catholic church teaches is vastly different than what the Bible teaches? I think so. For instance, the Ten Commandments teaches against idol worship but everyone knows idol worship is rampant throughout the Catholic church. The Bible teaches about keeping the Sabbath, which is Saturday not Sunday, which the Catholic church admits to changing. What? The pope is not above God and cannot change laws that God Himself has instituted but yet the hierarchy claims to be able to do just that.

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, not Jews alone, but man, and if we go back to when that was first instituted(no, not at Sinai), but in Genesis after God rested from his works we will see that was when the Sabbath was instituted. God does not change and I ask anyone, anywhere to tell me from the Bible, where Jesus said we should keep SUNday holy. I guarantee you, you won't find one. Not one.

FYI-There were only two things we were allowed to take with us from Eden. The Sabbath and marriage and both are being attacked.

NC62553 the United States is made up of people. Just like the church is made up of people. If the United States sucks, it's because people made it suck. Just like if the Catholic Church is corrupt, it's because they made it that way - the Catholic Church is not capable of "being good" all on it's own because it does not exist without people. It is not its own entity/being/living thing. It is a platform that people subscribe to.

Dulcita how are either of those things being attacked?? PEOPLE decide to get divorced 70% of the time, that's not someone attacking - that's choice. Marriage is a joke as an institution because - like the church - HUMANS have destroyed it's meaning.

JamieLynnn said;

The Catholic Church is the oldest church, with the largest contributions to charities around the world.

Paganism, worship of the Great Mother, is the oldest belief system currently still around--humankind was worshipping the Goddess while still fingerpainting on cave walls. The Jews came before the Christians, then the Muslims round out the trinity of Abrahamic belief systems. The institution of Goddess worship would doubtless be the largest one today if EVERY major belief system hadn't been so determined to wipe us out--the Catholics/Christians have, by and large, been the most insistent and the most destructive,however.

(Just yesterday I stopped a bus so a lady running to catch it could get on before it pulled away from the curb, and when she saw me holding the door open for her and she saw the pentagram hanging next to my dog tags she told me I was going to hell right before she climbed on.)

The Church cannot/has not/ will not ever be corrupted, because that would insinuate the teachings of Christ are corrupt.

Christian teachings are completely separate from the Church as an institution, and is especially separate from the Catholic Church. The Council of Nicaea started getting together the scrolls of Christian teachings in 329 CE , deciding what to put in and what to take out, and what they decided they didn't like was labeled 'Forbidden' and when the Vatican was founded in 1929 in an accord between the Pope and Benito Mussolini, when the Apostolic Palace on Vatican Hill was officially created as a sovereign City-State and given governance over itself, those Forbidden Books were hidden away in the Vatican archives never to be seen again.

Tell me, if the Catholic Church is not corrupt, then why is so much of Christ's teachings 'Forbidden' to you?

I know the modern translation of the Bible says that Jesus said to Peter, 'Upon you I will build my Church' but I have a Bible that was printed in 1961 and that same passage says 'Upon this rock-fastness I will build my congregation'.

The only reason articles like this generate any sort of media, is because it uses shock value to ruffle the feathers of people who are easily swayed by the media. Anyone with half a brain could look at this and see a man wanting to make a dollar off the media and feeding them whatever they wanted to boost their sales.

Do you, then, deny that molestation of children happens by priests, and that the Church as an organization does not hand these priests over to secular law, but changes their parish and removes them from reach of secular law?

Now what many people don't realize is that while the Bible has a passage that says 'Thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, it is a detestable thing', nowhere does it say that thous shalt not lie with a child as with an adult, so therefore per the Bible sex with children is OK (so long as it is not your child--the Bible says thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter, son, mother, father, mother in law, aunt, etc...but says NOTHING about other people's children, so pedophilia is apparently not a sin in the Abrahamic belief system. Which makes sense as there was no such thing as pedophilia then--life was short, and hard, infant mortality was high, and it was biologically advantageous to marry early and often in hopes of having at least ONE child who survived to adulthood.

However, secular law and modern viewpoints decree that this is, if not a sin, then it is against our laws, and if they would like to continue operating under protected status in the US then they should observe our 'separation of church and state'and allow these people to be judged under our laws.

The Church isn't corrupt..greedy ex butlers are.

And I would counter-argue with you that yes, indeed the Church has become corrupt. You kneel down before crosses hungover altars with the figure of Jesus on it. Jesus was the Son of God, yes, but he was also the Son of Man and therefore should not be worshipped as you would worship god. and the Ten commandments itself says "thou shalt not make for oneself any graven image of anything above the earth or under the waters." Isn't that indeed what you've done by hanging a figure of a crucified Jesus over an altar, kneeling before it,bowing down to it? Isn't that 'idolatry? Why do you need such symbols to worship God when His word is supposedly written on your heart and mind? You pray to Mary as you pray to God, and the saints, and Jesus. Catholics bow before the pope, with his Popemobile and gilded palace and personalized Prada slippers, when your own Jesus wore sandals and a robe and had no home.

Jesus himself said ''Give all you have to the poor and follow me"--he also says "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God."

Why would you follow the teachings of an earthly man who clearly doesn't believe in what he teaches, since he doesn't practice it in his own life?

Jamie Lynn Isgriggs said;

Again, people can be corrupt. The Church is based off the traditions and teaching of Jesus Christ. When anything strays from the Bible, or from the teachings of the apostles, then there is room for corruption. The actual institution of Catholicism cannot be corrupt. People who stray from the core values of the Church can be.

And that would include the Pope, who can be corrupt.

Oh, and anyone can Google or read up on atrocities by ANY and ALL religious groups or organizations. Humans did things misguidedly using the name of a higher organization. Has happened with the Pagans, Protestants, and Catholics. Again. People are corrupt.Not the Church

If you use 'church' as in the building itself, then yes, a building cannot be corrupt in the context that we're talking about here, though I would argue it can be structurally corrupted by termites,etc. However, that's not what you mean.

But 'Church' is not the actual building, but the congregation that makes it up. If a church burns down in a fire, do the worshippers not still consider themselves a 'Church' who just happens to not have a building at the moment? You cannot have a Church without people, in the same way that a forest is made up of trees. And just as in a forest, one tree in the forest can come down with a virus or parasite and the other trees around it can be affected, and so on until the forest dies--one person in a Church comes up with corrupted idea, and if it isn't recognized then the Church eventually corrupts.

Actually Kaily, part of the church is messed up and has been since the beginning...how can you not be when your 'creator' promotes incest one generation into his creation? Think about it - he put Adam and Eve here to start the world and who did their kids procreate with to continue the human race? That's right, their brother/sister/mom/dad. I'd say that's a pretty messed up start and may speak to the intelligence of a God. As for marriage, if it was just Adam and Eve, what church did they get married in and what priest married them? That's right, there weren't any churches or priests, so it looks like God does not care that much about the sacred church marriage.

@Amanda-2017567: great posts!

Oh, and anyone can Google or read up on atrocities by ANY and ALL religious groups or organizations. Humans did things misguidedly using the name of a higher organization. Has happened with the Pagans, Protestants, and Catholics.

I guess my first question would be which faction of Pagans. "Pagan" isn't a religion, it's a designation for a group of faiths. My next question would be which atrocities exactly did they commit? Defending themselves doesn't count, nor do cultural norms of the times which Christians also engaged in.

"I ask anyone, anywhere to tell me from the Bible, where Jesus said we should keep SUNday holy. I guarantee you, you won't find one. Not one."

But isn't that why football games (our newest religion) are played on Sunday?

@Kailey...you are simply not looking at the "church" as the Institution of Catholocism. Catholocism the "religion" is what others are speaking of. It is an idea, it is a value system, it is the word of God and Jesus.

It isn't mere man or woman.

You're talking apples against oranges.

There is a church which Catholics attend every Sunday in order to practice their beleif of Catholcism.

It is not Catholicism that is or can be corrupt.

It is people who profess to be of the belief who can be corrupt. And for many people it happens all too often. But that goes across all mankind, not just any specific religion or belief. A belief such a being a Democrat or a Republican. Those are in many ways modern day religions to many people. And it is not the ideal of Democracy or Republicanism that is corrupt...it is the people within the system who do things for their own personal gain.

Just a few thoughts on the conversation. The Church (capital "C" to denote the proper noun) is comprised of Sacred Scripture (Bible) and oral Tradition (sacraments and liturgy given by Christ). Note, Jesus did not give us a Bible. He established a Church! The Bible came later with scriptures inspired by God but written by those who He inspired. The Bible we read today was not composed until year later through the prayerful consideration of councils. The scripture that Jesus had and read (and referenced) during His life was the Torah. When we talk about the Church being corrupt, it cannot be. The people within, and yes that counts Popes, can act corrupt. However, the Church, the bride of Christ, remains. Some popes throughout history have acted in poor judgement, however, their "infallibility" (as some referred to) only relates to their teachings on the Church. They are not infalliable in every act of their lives. The Church does not claim that and never has.

As for Sunday, it is the first day of the week. It is not the day Jesus celebrated for the Sabbath, as he celebrated on the 7th day of the week (Saturday). However, Sunday is the Lord's day because of the resurrection. We are not celebrating a day of rest. We celebrate Christ rising from the dead, new creation in Christ, and eternal life. When Christ says, "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath," (Mark 2:23-28, 27 is the exact verse but it is essential to always read scripture in context!) He is referring to the elders making the law (no work on the sabbath) as more important than God, and end in itself rather than a means to an end.

Hopefully that helps with some peoples' confusion and misunderstanding. :)

Well said Jamie. Ignore the anti-Christian crap ... sorry, shouldn't use crap as a comparative; crap is actually good for something! Would like to be the fly on the wall one minute after all these 'enlightened' libs meet death. We know God can take it ... and we believe that His mercy is without limit. He will be busy!

Stod said;

Just a few thoughts on the conversation. The Church (capital "C" to denote the proper noun) is comprised of Sacred Scripture (Bible) and oral Tradition (sacraments and liturgy given by Christ).

The Church is the people. 'Doctrine' is comprised of the Scripture and oral traditions (liturgies, masses.)

Note, Jesus did not give us a Bible. He established a Church! The Bible came later with scriptures inspired by God but written by those who He inspired.

Can you go read that again? First you said 'the Church is comprised of sacred scripture (Bible) and oral tradition.'

Now in this sentence you say 'Jesus didn't give us a Bible, he established a church.' If your definition of Church IS the Bible and oral tradition, then doesn't that mean Jesus DID give you the Bible? and if He did then how do you say 'The Bible came later?'

Now, I know the modern translation of the Bible says that Jesus said to Peter, 'Upon you I will build my Church' but I have a Bible that was printed in 1961 and that same passage says 'Upon this rock-fastness I will build my congregation'.

The Gutenburg Bible is the first book ever printed, and today is commonly referred to s 'the 42 line Bible.' I GUARANTEE that today's Bibles don't have the same stuff that that 1700's bible has--proof that the 'Unchanging Word of God' does change.

The Bible we read today was not composed until year later through the prayerful consideration of councils.

I would agree about the councils, but one wonders how much 'prayer' was actually going on. The Bible says 'thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, it is an abomination (according to today's Bible. My 1961 Bible says 'It is a detestable thing.'

Nowhere, however, does the Bible mention two women lying down together, and so if homosexuality is supposed to be such a sin, why does God have a double standard? Or could it maybe be that the Nicene council was men, and men almost universally think seeing two girls together is hot and they thought if they put that in there then nobody would read it--in other words, they put in there what they thought people wanted to hear, then called the rest of the books Forbidden because they didn't want anyone finding out what was really written? Wouldn't that be'corrupt'?

When we talk about the Church being corrupt, it cannot be. The people within, and yes that counts Popes, can act corrupt. However, the Church, the bride of Christ, remains. Some popes throughout history have acted in poor judgement, however, their "infallibility" (as some referred to) only relates to their teachings on the Church.

So if, as you say, the Church is the Bible and oral Traditions, then the teachings on the church are infallible? But what about the Commandment that says thou shalt not bow down unto any graven image--what do you think that great big image of a tortured, crucified Jesus is right over the altar that their teaching says everyone should kneel in front of and genuflects before? Didn't the Bible (and the Commandments) call that 'idolatry'?

Jaimie, please put down that glass of kool-aid. The Church has done some good through history, but ALWAYS for its own ends. Primarily, its history is one of repression, torture, killing, and abuse -- and as recent events continue to illustrate, some of its worse abuses have been against its own members! If you want to get a true picture of the Catholic church, consider its history of pedophilia in combination with the Vatican's desire to rein in the nuns who are actually doing Christ's work. It is a corrupt, sinful organization, riddled with perverts. More of a Mafia for Christ than a religious organization, and historically, little better than Islam.

Right on the nail. It's a mind control thing that reaps billions annually and controls the weak, lazy minded fools.

Big old chip on your shoulder? Arrogant, not? Before secular society got into the act, it was the Church which established schools, colleges, hospitals, orphanages, hospices, and the like, and it also gave the world great art, music and architecture. Wrongs have been committed in its name, but it has also done much good. Science, like religion, can be twisted to evil ends. Put your faith in science all you want, there are people in the world who would employ it to bad ends too. The Nazis did so. And science need not be pitted against religion. Many great scientists were and are religious, such as Gregor Mendel, who was a geneticist AND a Catholic PRIEST.

You are upsetting to my Bible study group that is still trying to figure out what the H**l all that stuff really means

Nickolause, James 1:27 but, what if your history has created widows,orphans, the poor, the suppressed,the uneducated? These problems cause domino affects that can last for generations.James 2:10-13. After the old world was wiped away, before religion,nations,warlords,tribal lords, language change. The Almighty said this,Genesis 9:5-9 People can pollute the earth in many ways. But violence,bloodshed is #1

Nikolaus, yes the Catholic church has established those things. However, they were not the first to do so, and are not the only ones to have made positive social and artistic contributions.

Would it be weird to say "amen" to a post promoting science over religion? LOL

Wow, you not knowing that Catholics are Christians is insane. And saying that you believe many of them are going to hell tells me your new found beliefs are steering you in the wrong direction. I'm not saying I'm better than you, but no one knows who we will meet once we are dead. You might be surprised who you'll see.

I wondered how long it would take for some moron to bash Obama.

Nikolaus,

Fair enough. I see how you can perceive some of the comments to be disparaging. So in the interest of elevating the discussion, I would only like to posit three questions:

1) Why does the pope, the representative of God on earth, who should be Jesus-like in his demeanor, have a butler (among other niceties)?

2) Why does a church need prison cells?

3) What information is the pope so afraid of being disseminated?

I'll take your responses off-line.

Ha ha...... I hear you neighbor-1161. Only those who were understand what you are saying!

@GEM217- You are correct.

...really? PROVE to me that Jesus is the son of God. PROVE to me that God exists in the first place. It is NOT a FACT that God exists or that Jesus was his son. That's religious belief, which incidentally does not equate to fact. And resorting to attempting to correct my grammar and diction as a means to deflate my argument only solidifies your lack of argument.

Kaily, prove to me He's not. Look at a flower and tell me there is no God. Look at the intricate workings of your eyes and tell me they weren't created. Look at the changing of the seasons and how animals and plants "know" what to do and how everything is in perfect rhythm and how the universe is in balance and tell me the planets just came about with no God. That there is gravity and immense beauty and it evolved from slime. Even if these things weren't created by a superior being, SOMEONE had to set things in motion -- someone had to "write the program" for all these things to work. Do you really believe that this is the only life you have?

@GEM217

Why are babies born with birth defects? Why do people get cancer? Why is there mental illness?

Are these part of the designer's grand plan, too?? Sounds like design flaws.

And do not pull that "it's all part of god's great plan" or "it's one of life's mysteries" crap on me.

CNJ Mom: Think about it. If we were all perfect, we wouldn't be having these discussions. We'd be robots or Stepford People. Read and STUDY the Bible. Then you'd understand and not be so bitter.

Kailey, just because people sin in the name of God doesn't mean he doesn't exhist.. There is documented proof that Jesus Christ lived and performed miracles.. Also in the Old Testiment the teachings in Exodus speaking on the Pharoahs and Moses, yes those stories, not just "Christian beliefs" actual facts written in history books.. Not just the Bible either (nice try though).. Eyptian, Roman and Hebrew accounts of Jesus and his works.. You know what the flaw of this world is? Freedom. People in other COuntries are humble and appreciate the simplest kindness.. God didn't give us all free will to abuse ourselves.. He gave it to us to test the strong from the weak.. So, you go on and take the widened path in life.. The easiest route.. I will continue to fight the good fight on the narrow path.. You can't see air, but you know you need it to breath.. My God is my air. There is no denying all of the miracles in this world and if you think that it's coincidence, I feel VERY bad for you!

Laulaus,

Your threshold for "proof" is very low. Once upon a time the same folks that proliferated the bible's beliefs also had "proof" that the earth was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth, and that the planet was created a couple of thousand years prior, etc, etc, etc.

C NJ Mom

"Why are babies born with birth defects? Why do people get cancer? Why is there mental illness? Are these part of the designer's grand plan, too?? Sounds like design flaws. And do not pull that "it's all part of god's great plan" or "it's one of life's mysteries" crap on me."

No, it's not ALL part of God's plan.. Does God put a cigarette in a mother's mouth, drugs in her viens, genial defects in peoples bodies? No, he doesn't.. It ALL comes down to free will.. God doesn't make man sin.. MAN makes man sin.. If you actually took the time to read and understand the Bible, even if you chose not to follow that path, you may have a better understanding.. My guess is that you like to run off at the mouth..

God created man in his image.. Then (WO)MAN sinned against God by allowing themselves to be seperated from God by being tempted by the devil.. So there was no flaw in the design.. There was flaw in MAN..

You really need to pick up the good book and read.. If the Bible is a bit too "grand" for you they've got a simpler version in the children's section..

Laulaus - just because people sin in the name of God doesn't mean he doesn't exhist..

There's also no proof that invisible pink unicorns don't exist.

And just like with your imaginary sky fairy there's no evidence whatsoever that they do exist.

skrekk: And there's no proof that God DOESN'T exist. Just look at nature, the universe, YOU. There's a lot of things that science, in all its "wisdom" has no explanations for. Man, in all his arrogance, is throwing a tantrum, screaming "show me!" Do you have faith in things you cannot prove or see? If you don't, yours is a sad life.

GEM217 - And there's no proof that God DOESN'T exist.

Of course, but that's not a reason to believe in the supernatural.

Just look at nature, the universe, YOU. There's a lot of things that science, in all its "wisdom" has no explanations for.

Only simple minds need supernatural explanations for what we currently don't understand. Rational people would simply admit that they don't understand something and seek to learn why things are the way they are, rather than relying on magic and imaginary sky fairies to explain the unknown.

But if it makes you feel better to have an imaginary friend, go for it! Just don't confuse your bronze-age superstitions with science.

Some will say it's Faith I have. Faith meaning ... Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

lets use another approach. A common sense approach. Or one of known facts vs fable, folklore and fairy tales I don't want to make folks mad but if we let Occam's Razor decide (when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better) what would be more likely. You can make your own judgements on this. Man became what he is today because of?

1. That there is a God that had a son that walked on water, rose from the dead and performed miracles, made the 10 Commandments that does not exist, spoke to Moses through a Burning Bush. Why would a God need a burning bush to speak to anyone?
or

2. Someone studied their whole life on evolution and able to piece together building blocks of humanoid life.

Everyone can make their own judgements on this. Now which is more likely , more believable, more factual, more proven?

Laulaus - prove to me that Unicorns DON'T exist. I believe they exist. My faith in Unicorns tells me that they exist. Their horns make pretty rainbows where fairies live and protect the pot of golden nuggets that sits atop the mountain from which the rainbow sprang! Praise the pretty Unicorns!

Laulaus, you got my vote for post #17.5, but lost me on #17.7. I am a born again Christian and am passionate about my faith in Jesus Christ as my Savior. I think you may be spreading bad information with this post. Not all things, good or bad, happen as a direct result of a choice you made. God doesn't "punish" humans in the sense of a person smoking being picked to get lung cancer. I have tried to live a Christian/Jesus-like life, of course I am human and therefore a sinner. Sometimes an aware sinner, (temper,gossip etc.) HOWEVER, when MS became a part of my life, my entire world changed. I struggled and I like to say, "butted heads with God" for quite some time before I finally realized that it is what it is. Deal with it. So I started going back to Church(Methodist). Now according to your #17.7 post, I am being punished for my choices, which I just do not believe. My "mortal" rewards are just that, mortal rewards(or burdens). But when I get to heaven, NOW THOSE ARE THE REWARDS I AM WORKING FOR. Your post just verifies all the people that ask questions like, "where was your God when this happened or that happened? I do believe that God is still in charge, I believe in my personal relationship with Jesus. I believe in prayer. My MS is in no way a result of my sins or choices. BUT,WITH GOD MY LIFE IS MORE BEARABLE. HE IS WITH ME THROUGH THE GOOD AND BAD.

Laulaus:

No, it's not ALL part of God's plan.. Does God put a cigarette in a mother's mouth, drugs in her viens, genial defects in peoples bodies? No, he doesn't.. It ALL comes down to free will.. God doesn't make man sin.. MAN makes man sin.. If you actually took the time to read and understand the Bible, even if you chose not to follow that path, you may have a better understanding.. My guess is that you like to run off at the mouth..

You really need to pick up the good book and read.. If the Bible is a bit too "grand" for you they've got a simpler version in the children's section..

A little defensive, aren't you? Is your faith that shaky that you have to respond in this manner?

Not all babies born with defects are because the parents did drugs, smoked, drank or ate the wrong foods. In many cases, the parents DID NOTHING WRONG yet the child is born with its brain outside the skull, or without a stomach, the heart is outside the chest, etc. Is this some being's design? Really???

And as far as genetic defects - oh, if you are attributing the design of this earth and nature to a being, it is MOST certainly the fault of that being that a genetic defect is at work.

And I'll have you know that I have several versions of the Bible - adult, children's and juvenile - as well as a copy of the Mormon bible. I have them on the bookshelf with my other fiction books.

GEM217:

CNJ Mom: Think about it. If we were all perfect, we wouldn't be having these discussions. We'd be robots or Stepford People. Read and STUDY the Bible. Then you'd understand and not be so bitter.

The evidence of the beauty of nature that you cite proves to you the presence of a being as a creator of that nature. Why can't you also attribute that this being also creates deformed children and causes mental illness and horrible, painful diseases?

With regard to my reading the good book, see my last paragraph in 17.14. Thank you.

C NJ Mom, sure you do.. I don't believe you picked up any book containing morals..

grmasissa, I don't know how I could've lost you.. Man has free will and if he puts himself at risk, how is that God's fault? How can someone say "I lost my child, there is no God".. Like somehow God was responsible for their conception..

On another thought.. You can't live a life worthy of Christ with one foot left in the world (secular).. It's just not how it works.. Christianity is to coexhist in this world but not to be too comfortable and conform to the "evil that men do".. We're supposed to help those ignorant of Christ and through our faith in God, trust that he has it covered..

As far as pink fluffy unicorns with sprinkles coming out their butts.. To each their own, but, in all fairness I wasn't attacking unicorns or belief in them.. So yeh, I get a little defensive when people make ignorant statements about my God..

Laulaus, you are a self-righteous, judgemental fool!

Good luck with that.

I don't believe you picked up any book containing morals..

of course you don't (eye roll)

typical, self-righteous fool

The Vatican posted a 9.8 million surplus in 2009, in the middle of the worst global economic recession in modern times. Then in 2011 they were bemoaning a $19 million deficit. Seriously? Sell a painting. Maybe two. You'll make that up EASILY.

So much for vows of poverty.

It's interesting that the American Catholic church only contributes 2.7% of its income to charity, while at the same time they're the single largest property owner in Manhattan:

http://www.economist.com/node/21560536

.

So your faith is based on the fear that your violent and psychotic imaginary friend will drown you?

Sounds rather shallow.

I've always wondered - why didn't Noah swat those two flies when he had the chance?

shrekk, lol no Genesis 9:14,15 Anyways, Mmm, How long as mankind been living under the doomsday clock? 15 minutes to midnite? Midnite being a result of catastrophic chain of events? Many have lived those years with no fear, others have lived in fear when its been closer to midnite. Mankind has never seen anything like it in the past, right? tic toc tic toc Sure we live in the best times of human history

Skrekk & Stone Cold, I don't think you have a full brain cell between the both of you.. God didn't drown his followers.. I think you missed the point in that story.. He drowned the people that didn't.. Cheap jokes about what God intended are for the ignorant and foolish.. So, by all means carry on..

The Man Gabriel, Mankind is ignorant for living under a "doomsday clock".. It says in the Bible that NO MAN knows the day or the hour.. So, if they want to believe in all that mess let them.. Tomorrow is NOT promised, it says that in the Bible too.. Are you ready to stand judegment to him you mock? Tick tock is right, but not for the reasons your stating.. Time is short..

Laulaus - God didn't drown his followers.. I think you missed the point in that story.. He drowned the people that didn't..

So your imaginary friend murders people who don't believe in him? Sounds like your imaginary friend has a rather fragile ego.

And you worship such a violent and psychotic fantasy?

Not to mention - the first commandment, the numero uno, the biggie, more important than stealing, killing, or coveting your neighbor's ass (my neighbor has a great ass; damn right I covet it); is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Sounds like a pretty insecure Supreme Being to me.

Scripture text #20. . Thank you very much for that post, I wish I could post with such class. I usually end up with a book just to get 1 point across. I can only hope that at least 1 lost soul will respond to your post by picking up the Bible.

To the others questioning God being insecure, not so much insecure, but a very jealous God. God does expect Him to be 1st in your life. When He is, the rest just falls into place. Follow Him and find peace.

grmasissa - God being insecure, not so much insecure, but a very jealous God. God does expect Him to be 1st in your life.

That sounds like the very definition of psychological insecurity.

And given that you religious nuts admit that your imaginary friend murders people if they don't believe your in bronze-age nonsense, I really question the ethics of your cult.

Laulaus, yes I take Jeremiah 25:30-38 very seriously Anyways, I dont need to worry about man made weapons. On the other hand Ezekiel 21:12-17 A Blessings to the citizens of the Jerusalem that is from Heaven "Spiritual Israel" Numbers 6:24-27

The Pope didn't perform the miracles.. God in human form through Christ did.. So, Athiest considering obviously you must believe in the Darwinian theory you know the "we came from monkey's" theory, were are all the half-monkey humans in transition? There should be all kinds of half and halfs running around not quite human yet.. Where's the missing link..

There is absolutely nothing sophisticated in your argument.. You know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about theology.. Happy trolling tho.. Athiest.. Your not even an athiest.. Even athiests have a basic knowledge of Catholism for arguments sake.. You apparently missed that class.. Next..

Laulaus... I'm SURE your wonderful God would be satisfied to know that you were down here on Earth voyeuristically bullying people from behind a computer screen. Because, you know, he sent his "ONLY SON" to die for you. What was that you were saying about freedom...?? o_0

Laulaus, you're saying a lot here. You're attacking someone for their lack of knowledge while you yourself are doing the very same thing. Try reading up on the theory of evolution before attacking it.

I've read it and I don't believe in it Reya, but attacks really?? So, anti-christians/anti-religious people can make comments on here but I'm not allowed to defend my position? Seems a little biased, no?

Kaily, voyeristic? Aren't you reading this blog and commenting here too? Just because I believe in God doesn't make me perfect.. I am not bullying anyone.. I am stating my position and opinion, responding to comments just like you are.. Funny thing that Freedom of Speech thing is.. FYI, the "behind the computer screen" comment is whitty, but I'd have no problem debating with someone face to face.. Do it all the time, so no, I'm not a pixel hero..

I was wondering if that had occurred to anyone else!