Reminds me of the old history class joke: "If Russia attacked Turkey from behind, would Greece help?"

It looks like this move by the so-called rebels to bring Turkey into their war against Assad is working. It is highly doubtful that these mortars were fired by Syrian government troops. They would not be that stupid and are far more disciplined than to do something like this. It is far more likely that these mortars were fired from near the Syrian military base to try and bring Turkey into the war to help them against Assad.

I also find it very difficult to listen to Turkey complain about their sovereignty being violated and complaining when they openly are allowing the so-called rebels to use their country as a base of operations to organize their attacks against the Syrian government. This makes Turkey far from a neutral party in this conflict. If Turkey really wants to keep out of this and not be fired on (again, not that I believe these mortars were actually fired by the Syrian army) they need to kick the "rebels" out of their country and stop providing them with support by allowing them to base in Turkey and launch attacks against Syrian army forces from their bases Turkey. The Turkish government needs to quit whining and make a decision as to whether they want to stay neutral in this conflict or become a legitimate target for Syria by allowing their country to be used as a base by the "rebels," they can not have it both ways. As it stands now, there invocation of article 4 of the NATO treaty is invalid since they are not remaining neutral in the Syrian civil war.

JD you have no proof of your assertion. Syria already shot down one of recon plane a few months ago. Letting refugees escape certain death is no basis for Syria to shoot on Turkey. There have been several instances of cross borders shooting too.

Your interpretation of NATO rules are comical. Turkey has a right to defend their borders from Syria's aggression. Turkeys response to Syria's attack has been proportionate and does not change their neutrality.

JS

Your comment disregards all logic, repeat the same lines with, "why would the rebels be that foolish?"

By international law Turkey must open up their border for refugees, this they have done for over 10s of thousands of people, you seem to have a problem with that though. You also seem to forget that Assad was caught shelling the refugee compounds in Turkey last year already. Yes the rebels used Turkey as a base, so what? that does not diminish anything that Assad has done. Turkey has offered services for the rebels too, again so what, this is their choice. As for this strike, obviously Turkey and the media know who has been launching the mortars, it was a GOVERNMENT military outpost. you seem to be in deep denial that Assad is a murderous villain.

JS, you also seem to forget the most important things about this war. It started with GOVERNMENT TROOPS firing and murdering civilians long before the people started fighting back; Secondly, only the rebels are allowing the media in the country to cover the war which tells us who has more to hide.

Next you can go on and rant about Jihad Extremists being part of the rebels, no one doubts that. But unless the country was already filled with hundreds of thousands of extremists as citizens, then these fighters are only a small faction of the fighters. THus also does not change what Assad is or what the majority of the citizens want.

I agree with JS in SD from the beginning of this conflict Turkey allowed the so-called Free Syrian Army to establish bases withing its territory, how do you think they are getting stronger and better armed? This action is similar to the NAZI's, when they attacked their own border post from the Polish side to create an excuse for invading Poland. Syria has a lot to deal with, to on top of that, risk a war with Turkey, which is the largest NATO army after the US Army.

JS...

Check out France24 tv news, Syria has admitted it fired on Turkey accidentally and has apologized. I guess that fact will not change what you posted. This goes to show that many will add their commentary to an article as fact and mislead others who will not take the time to research the often times too complicated issue. Everyone has the right to their opinion and to debate the issues but not to state those opinions as fact.

JD is absolutely correct and Adam, cease with the typical bull crap response of "wheres the proof". The PROOF is clearly evident to anyone that has been watching and tracking the Arab Spring pattern of interference, collusion with "rebels", subversive support with arms, intelligence, and manipulation of events by the USA and our proxies - like Turkey. You do not provide havens for people that are trying to overthrow a sovereign government and not expect to get burned. This latest crap is pure "Gulf of Tonkin" style propaganda designed to legitimize a further escalation of the conflict which now has the potential to grow into WW3. Russian and China will NOT tolerate Turkish interference with the Syrian conflict for long, and those of you that keep jumping for glee and opining that Turkey is about to punish the most heavily chemical and biological capable country in the region are have not one iota of an understanding how volatile this situation is. The UN and the USA are trying to topple a leader that will not be toppled without outside help, and this time, the result is not going to be like Libya and Egypt. Assad will douse the entire region with WMD's including our bases in many of the adjoining countries before he goes the route of Saddam.

Even the article admits:

"It was not clear who fired the mortar into Turkey, but security sources said it had come from near Tel Abyad and that Turkey was increasing the number of troops along its border."

It could have been anyone wanting to provoke further intervention in the Syrian conflict. And Turkey is more than eager to engage militarily, in concert with most international players except Russia and China who are refusing to go along with it.

So what is the point now? To overthrow Assad and his group in order to install whom? Install worse is the most probably outcome, as happened in LIbya and Egypt. Of course Erdogan and his Islamist circle in Turkey are keen to have clones of themselves running Turkey. The article says that Erdogan cultivated relations with Assad of Syria and considered him an ally... until the wind blew another way. He did the same thing with Gadhafi in Libya, a great friend until the wind blew another way. He's the only less reliable ally than the United States in that region.

This whole "mortar from Syria" story just sounds like an excuse to make (more) war with Syria by outside forces. And their are enough outside forces engaged there already with al-Qaida wannabes from all over the world pouring into there to wage jihad.

Assad is 'not good' but it looks like once again we're going to get 'worse' to replace him, just like happened in Libya and Egypt. Another foreign policy failure in the making.  

Edit:  

chamasjiro writes: JS...Check out France24 tv news, Syria has admitted it fired on Turkey accidentally and has apologized.

So maybe they (Syria) did and maybe they didn't (fire the mortar). Sounds like if they did it was a mistake. If they didn't then maybe they're just saying they did to avoid the military clash that is coming if they don't say anything.

Lets not get involved and say we did.

Erdogan has allowed Syrian rebels to organize on Turkish soil and pushed for a foreign-protected safe zone inside Syria.

This sounds to me like an act of war by Turkey against Syria, justifying any Syrian actions against Turkey, and nullifying our NATO obligations to defend Turkey.

Turkey has one of the best trained Army's in the world, well equipped and professional; this was no doubt a accident, the last thing Syria wants is a fight with Turkey, which they would lose in a day.

for myself i dont care who did what to whom first. who is supporting rebels or not over there. the only thing that concerns me is the US has to stay out of it. we need to stay out of it we can no longer afford to get involved in this type of thing. its just simple economics, we dont have the money.

Sad stuff. Assad is crazy.

Here's the problem. The Syrian military were after "rebels" and hit Turkish troops by mistake. The "rebels" fighting for democracy in Syria is al-qaeda backed by the muslime brotherhood. They are stirring crap up so that they can take over the government of Syria just like they took over Egypt and Libya. Once done they can elect a "President" aka muslime brotherhood puppet to run the country and invoke strict sharia law.

Barack Obama will be sending the "rebels" $150 million of your dollars soon to help the muslime brotherhood take over another country.

This is all part of islams plan to take over the world and they are doing it one country at a time under the quise of "Democracy"

Democracy under sharia law is nothing like what we know as democracy in America.

How can one have freedom under the rule of this islamist cult?

This is all part of islams plan to take over the world and they are doing it one country at a time under the quise of "Democracy"

Yeah, sure it is. Do we really still have "evil organization trying to take over the world" conspiracies in the 21st century? I thought those went out of vogue after the Cold War. Well, whatever. I'm not terribly afraid of Islam spreading through democracy, and sincerely doubt they'll be "taking over the world" any time soon (or ever).

Democracy under sharia law is nothing like what we know as democracy in America.

So what? A democracy in a foreign country shouldn't have to conform to what America has decided is "democracy". If they want a different government, let 'em have it. None of what you've described, even if I were to take it seriously, is as terrible as the despotic regimes that currently run the region.

romilio

I agree with JS in SD from the beginning of this conflict Turkey allowed the so-called Free Syrian Army to establish bases withing its territory, how do you think they are getting stronger and better armed? This action is similar to the NAZI's, when they attacked their own border post from the Polish side to create an excuse for invading Poland. Syria has a lot to deal with, to on top of that, risk a war with Turkey, which is the largest NATO army after the US Army.

Pretty much steeped in your own ideology aren't you? The Syrians have admitted they are behind the attack, is that enough for you to drop your conspiracy theory? But you are right about the Syrians risking war with Turkey. Turkey is NOT a country to trifle with. They have a well equipped, highly effective Air Force and Army. In addition to that, they have NATO Article 5 "An attack against a member nation is an attack against all member nations". This does not bode well for Assad. He had better get a handle on his military while he still has one.

Frank-739698

You really need to get back on your meds. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and you take whichever RWNJ talkshow host you listen to seriously. Let me give you some idea what is really happening. Some local Syrian artillery commander was given orders to "hit" an area inside the Turkish border to send a warning about harboring rebels. Whether or not Turkey was or is harboring rebels is beside the point. Turkey responded in four different fronts. This was well thought out and Assad should be on notice.

1. Turkey went to the UN Security Council - provided the UN the obligatory notice of intent of self defense.

2. Went to NATO and invoked Article 4 which calls an emergency NATO Security Meeting. There invocation of Article 5 (an attack on a member nation is an attack on all member nations) will no doubt be considered.

3. Passed authorization in the Turkish Parliament to deploy troops into Syria (read: invade) if situation warrants. No further authorization required.

4. Initiated a second round of retaliatory strikes. They are in effect daring the Syrians to respond. I have also read, but without confirmation that Turkey is moving armor to the border.

I certainly hope Assad isn't a personal friend of yours. It's not going well for him.

Right on the money Ol' Doc, Assad has no regard for his people and has proven himself to be a despot of the worst kind. He would certainly attack Turkey which is allowing Syrians to escape his regime. Assad rules by fear and has no regard for International opinion or rule of law. The comments against Turkey defending itself and strengthening its military presence along it border with Syria are uneducated at best and ignorant at worst. Turkey has shown itself to be a responsible new entity that is seeking to provide better government and more self rule by its own people. Compare that with Assad and perhaps some of you commenting against Turkey may see things differently.

You're correct in the fact that Turkey has one of the best trained and equiped armies of the world. That's because they were trained and equiped by the IDF!

There is some pretty specious reasoning going on on this thread.

1) Syria's brutal Baathist leaders are an ungodly alliance of Shiite Alawites and Christians that make up about 15% of the total population, but control over 85% of the country's wealth. Yes, what happened was a rebellion, but is now a full-fledged civil war. Implying that there are sinister forces at work is specious since most of the Muslim world sides with the huge Sunni Arabic majority. So yes again, you would expect to find aid coming to the Sunni side from virtually every Sunni country, which is all except Iraq and Iran.

2) Iran supports this horrible regime because other than Iraq, which it now essentially controls, Syria is the only other Shiite-controlled country. If Syria falls to the rebels, then Iran is the big loser and becomes much further isolated, even among Muslim countries.

3) Russia supports Assad because their ONLY overseas military base is at Targus in Syria. This port is vital to Russian interests because the Turks have the easy ability to deny access to and from the Black Sea to the Russian-Ukrainian Black Sea Fleet (which Russia controls.) Not only can Turkey deny keep ships from transiting the Bosphorus and Darnanelles, but the can hunt down any ships in the Black Sea at their leisure. This means that the Targus base is the only thing that gives viability to the Black Sea Fleet in the event of hostilities. (BTW, the USA has over 2,000 overseas military bases.)

4) The Turks are not someone to be mess with. The Russians are scared to death of the Turkish military. The Turks are a NATO member and have consulted every step of the way in the Syrian civil war with all NATO allies (who have given it full support.) Not only are the Turks allies not, but the Turks were allies back as far as the Korean War when Turks fought with the 25th Infantry Division and sustained horrendous losses defending the Pusan pocket against massive Chinese assaults.

5) The Turks are nuclear armed. As a NATO country they have 40 nukes under their control and on their soil.

6) The Syrian government has admitted that Syrian army units fired mortars into Turkey "by mistake." The Turks don't buy it because the Syrians were so uncooperative when they shot down an unarmed Turkish RF-4B over Turkish territory. The Syrians refused to assist in the search for the pilot or to pay reparations. The Turks do not forget stuff like that.

7) There was virtually NO chance that the mortars were fired by the rebels as you believe. This is because the incoming rounds were tracked by counterbattery fire control radars. These radars are associated with every modern artillery unit. Had the Turks not wanted to consult with its allies in NATO first, the 155 shells would have hit before the mortar rounds impacted. The Turks checked to see how the situation fit with their rules of engagement, notified NATO allies of its intentions, made sure it was a legitimate miliraty target. Then they wiped it out. This is how the military is supposed to operate.

8) The rounds that impacted in Turkey were aimed at fleeing unarmed civilian Syrian refugees who had already made it to Turkish soil.

9) The Turks have been very neutral thus far. All refugee aid and oversight is going through the United Nations and all military action is being coordinated with all NATO allies, including the USA. But yes, they would like to see a stable Sunni-led government that is not aligned with Iran on their border. And yes, they would like the Russian base at Targus to disappear. But the Turks have their own problems with the Kurds and are not interested in being dragged in to Syria's problems unless it is absolutely forced to do so.

I have questions: Do you really hate everyone else in the world as you indicate? Why are you supporting Iran in this issue? Do you really think that people should believe that the rebels are shooting precious ammunition at their own civilians in some sort of half-vast conspiracy? Do you also believe that UFO's are obsessed with anal probes?

Yay for Turkey. Since they have been so good about the refugee problem (for so many years too), just let them have Syria... if they can get rid of Assad. They probably don't want it though, who would.

The article has been revised since my earlier post, but I still stand by my assertions regarding Turkey invoking article 4 of the NATO treaty. They are allowing the "rebels" to use Turkey as a base of operations from which to launch attacks against the Syrian Army. This means that Turkey is far from the neutral party they are trying to claim to be. They are providing support for the rebels by allowing them to base in Turkey. This makes Turkey the aggressor against the Syrian government. The Syrian troops would be well within their rights under international law to launch attacks against places in Turkey where the rebels are basing. This is no different from Turkey's own rationale for attacking locations inside Iraq where Kurdish rebels are basing to launch their attacks into Turkey and in that case the Kurdish rebels are not being supported by the Iraqi government, they have just been unable to stop the Kurdish rebels. Turkey can not have it both ways. If they want to claim neutrality and act like the injured party here then they need to take some concrete action to drive the "rebels" out of Turkey and keep them from using Turkish soil as a place to base their operations and launch their attacks. Turkey has evenbeen providing some materiel support to the "rebels." Turkey needs to put up or shut up when it comes to trying to invoke the NATO treaty. Invoking this clause of the treaty requires that they not be the aggressor, which in this case they clearly are not through their support for the "rebels."

JS, you have a point about Turkey's stance in regards to the civil war, but then they haven't been "neutral" in quite some time. It's no secret that they don't like what Assad is doing and would like to see him overthrown, but have set some strict limits on their own participation. Whether by accident or design, Syria tested those limits and paid for it in spades.

Chris, as usual I appreciate seeing your posts. I always learn a great deal when I read your comments.

@Frank "Democracy under sharia law is nothing like what we know as democracy in America. How can one have freedom under the rule of this islamist cult?"

What church or organization did you have to belong to in order to be elected, or to even come into power/money in the first place at the time this nation was founded? Even though they put in a separation of church and state, most still belonged to the same church/faith. How many Muslims, Jewish, Zen, Buddhists, American Indians, etc. people were there that signed the Declaration of Independence or were founding fathers? How did people have freedom from under the rule of one church/cult again if you had to belong to it in order to fit in and succeed? Wanna talk about lynch mobs or the KKK?

If you were born in one of those countries guess what religion you would most likely be? What choice would you have other then to be Muslim. How many years has this country been around yet both our political parties must have God in their platforms? Sounds like that cult is still around...

Let me guess you guys support the war with Iran because Israel says so, but want Assad to stay in power? WTF kind of logic is that? Iran did want a democracy long ago, but we wanted cheap oil, and supported a dictator that got it for us at the cost of the Iranian people. Hence why many dislike America since we supported Saddam and the Taliban/Al-Qaeda and then turn around and start a war with them. Our foreign policy from President to President is chit.

If Assad falls then Iran is the only real @!$%#e county left and means its position is even further weakened. Besides Iraq there are not many @!$%#es groups in the other countries around the world. Iran's economy is on the verge of collapse and losing Assad would be another blow. We have not had any success of getting any nuclear armed enemy to even get rid ALL of their nukes EVER. WTF makes us think they will now? The only difference is in how nice you treat that country and even having a nuke will not change Iran overnight.

Let me guess you support someone other then our President? That has less experience and still thinks that Russia is an enemy? That wants to increase our military budget even more? That wants a 5 trillion tax cut, and plans to pay for it closing loopholes THE SAME GROUP uses. So the tax cuts do NOTHING even if he could get our lazy A$$ congress to do anything like close those loopholes. His plan requires Congress to do something since he has no details or specifics on how his is going to fix chit. How long has it been since congress has passed a budget? THREE F***ING YEARS, I am amazed our economy is doing as well as it is. ANY PLAN THE REQUIRES OUR LAZY CONGRESS TO DO CHIT IS ASININE.

We should be careful not to back Iran into a corner to much. Let them know they are in one, but be careful pressing them. When any living thing is backed into a corner it has a God given right to defend its self. I hope the owners of this country understand that.

The real "owners" of this country and the world, don't give a damn. they want more people to die.

george pauljohn

The real "owners" of this country and the world, don't give a damn. they want more people to die.

You mean people like Bill Gates, and Obama and their unholy MSNBC, Monsanto government appointments of their lobbyists as Obama quadruples the death rate for American soldiers in Afghanistan as Monsantos products give us all cancer as all the cast crops seed market eliminates seed that reproduces cornering the worlds food supply as their products continue to kill off the worlds bees ?

Tell you what, maybe next time there is a debate, Bill Gates could put a microchip in Obamas neck t hat provides a "heads up" display on his retina so Obama knows what to say.

Could OBAMA please put some Turks on the US-Mexico border?

So is this the beginning of the October Surprise the Alternate and Corporate Media have been constantly talking about?

Think about it folks who benefits from this attack? Al Qaeda under the guise of the Free Syria Army and their supporter Barrack Obama who gets his NATO Intervention that he and Billary have been pushing for over the last 18 months!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/02/us-usa-syria-obama-order-idUSBRE8701OK20120802

With The Bloody British SAS leading the Free Syria Army made up of 50% or more by Al Qaeda it would seem to be a False Flag Operational dream in the making.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2183869/Britain-secretly-equipping-Syrian-rebels-latest-satellite-phones-help-topple-Assad.html

Don't believe America would do that? Watch this PBS Video......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l-8PFk8j5I

We still do not know who fired into Turkey but we sure know who fired into Syria, now don’t we?

So has anyone else seen this new supposedly FSA Video claiming “They” Fired On Turkey?

http://www.youtube.com//watch?v=OyfpHrq8Bw8

America….. Just Say No to another Not War for Wall Street and the Military / Industrial Corporations Fun & Profits! If a NATO Country is the Aggressor then the NATO Treaty Plainly Does Not Apply!

Psst And Syria has not accepted blame for this atrocity no matter what the Main Stain Media try's to imply....Once again don't believe watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqHzWIcYFVE&feature=channel&list=UL

So again are We The Sheaple Being lead up Wall Street and The Military / Industrial Corporations Abattoir's Chute?

Never Forget President Eisenhower warning to US about the Military Industrial Complex.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

To all the comments about what a kick-ass military the Turks have...

That might not be true any more. Prime Minister Erdogan has recently purged the military of scores of top secular officers, including generals, and replaced them with reliable Islamists sympathetic to his regime.

Remember what happened to the vaunted Soviet Armed Forces after Stalin purged top officers in the 1930s and replaced them with reliable Bolsheviks?

Catmandeux..

Sense of humour..

What we all need..

I LIKE IT !!!!

Chris writes:

The Russians are scared to death of the Turkish military.

Oh Please, that's just silly.

@ Chris-749391

Thank you, a reasoned post. I disagree slightly about the military being the principle reason for Russian concerns (though not to the extent Adam44 believes).

Russia has no overwhelming fear of the power of the Turkish armed forces, but equally, they've no desire for a conflict with this neighbour. Russian interests sit with the Assad regime, as a 'friendly' nation in an region otherwise hostile to them.

As for those who equate Turkey with other middle eastern countries in terms of behaviour, stability or influence, I'd say you should look at their recent past. They are (by COMPARISON with other regional powers) progressive, calm and wish to shed their more extreme past (look up Ottoman Empire and World war 1, along with Armenian genocide for an example of what they once were). They are a fully fledged and active NATO member, support and compromise when necessary (see voting records and press releases for the last 20 years for evidence), and are generally considered to be an aspirational example for other countries nearby to follow.

As for those discussing vast conspiracies and condemning rebels, I'm not certain what their motives are. We do know Assad's response has been brutal, not ordered or with help of others.

Let me use an alternate comparison here. The 2nd amendment provides citizens with the rights that limit the ability for absolute authoritarian rule by government (in addition to foreign invasion). Whilst it is improbable that congress or the President would institute such a conflict on it's own people now, this right allows citizens to protect themselves should it occur. Imagine now that it happens, you would (I hope) take up arms to defend yourself against tyranny. Fight for freedom and liberty if necessary. Why then so quick to admonish rebels doing the same in another country with a well established tyrannical government? You may be right, the motives may be less than altruistic or benevolent, but in their place you would like the benefit of doubt. Perhaps grant them the same.

In such an unlikely scenario, you would also hope for nearby countries to allow humanitarian movement of those wishing to escape, and protection. Perhaps condemnation. Perhaps more. Whilst this theoretical situation is a little ad hominem, it should make you think.

Some don't see it, because for them, it is such an alien place; they translate Muslim as terrorist, the middle east as a cesspool of violence equivalent to Hades, the problems there as religious only, them and us. I would suggest you read the interviews/books of ambassadors who've been there, or political and social theses/treatise related to it. It provides a mosaic, a complex picture no different from that of any country.

Come on - Obama blew it last night..no matter what is on his mind...he needs to be able to multitask when needed, that is why he chose the job of being president.

On Turkey - good for them....protect their rights and their people without apologizing like we have been doing.

NATO countries have signed treaties that "they will come to the defense of NATO partners". this does not necessarily mean "partners will get drug into a conflcit. IE Britain vs Argentina. Turkey vs Greece and so on.

But good for Turkey, dont let that violence spill over into thier country, support the rebels and get that Iranian puppet dictator out of there. A little covert aid of course wouldnt hurt.

S3 - well said.

And Bob, I dont give a ratz azz if Obama showed up in a clown suit and juggled pins, I wouldnt vote for $Romney$ if he transfered a million dollars from his offshore account into my US account.

Then you would not be part of the 47% ass

i am not part of the 47% mike and i agree with weatherman. my wife and i pay 35% in taxes as middle class americans that cannot do the loopholes that romney and his cronies can. why the hell should i have to pay 35% in taxes while he only pays 14% or less? so hell no he doesnt get my vote!

The less Obama "does' (due to ineptitude or distractions) the better.

Actually, I would like to see Turkey get involved, then somehow draw Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan in and then let them blow each other off the map.

Romney is a liar. If he gets elected, you can count on another war. Anyone who votes for Romney is out of their mind.

WEATHERMEN.... Just like Romney told the pimp last night, "You have your right to your own opinion, but you can not change the real facts". Yes Romney does have money in off-shore accounts because he is invested in off-shore companies, but so does over 50% of the congress and Senate members, including queen Polosi, Biden, and even both the Clintons who have money in one of the same banks as Mr. Romney. So give that line of Liberal Parrot Speak that has to do with off shore accounts a rest because it's just liberal garbage spewing that has blown back in their own stupid faces.

rvon im not a liberal or a conservative. i dont think its ok for romney to tax sheltor those offshore accounts i dont think its ok for the clintons to do it either. i think both the democrats and republicans are nothing but crooks that want to rip our tax dollars off in different ways. both those parties need to go the way of the dinosaurs.

And he's doing such a great job at it too..

Eric - I agree that both parties need to go the way of the dinosaur, as do a lot of others. But have you noticed that when one mentions a third party or trying to get people to vote for Independent candidates all you hear is ,"It's a wasted vote." Nothing will ever change with that attitude but if enough people get fed up enough with the two parties then voting Independent will not be a wasted vote, it will get changes people say they want but don't have the courage to act on. If enough people vote Independent their votes will not be wasted, they will be a movement to strip the stranglehold the two parties have on power in this country and return it to the voters where it belongs.

As for Turkey, they have the right to defend themselves as does any other nation.

presidential im not saying they are taking the tax dollars to put in the caymans. what i ment by that is they are ripping off the tax payer in many ways. what about corporate subsidies? what about media subsidies? alot of our tax dollars are going in places that the majority of the american public dont want those dollars to go too. when they get in office alot of our tax dollars do end up going to their biggest donators in many ways. this is happening in both the parties. hence they are in reality stealing our tax dollars. bush and cheney did much the same with haliburton and other businesses. you dont seem to realize presidential that it is both groups that keep doing this over and over to us, yet we still keep electing democrats and republicans. like i said both these parties need to go the way of the dinosaur, they have forgotten who they are working for!

soldiers dad i also believe that turkey has the right for self defense. i also believe that the US just cannot get involved with it. we are currently to far in debt. we need to worry about america first, and getting our debt down, before we can get involved in things like that anymore, with boots on the ground, or any economic help for them.

Eric - So true, we as voters keep yelling we want things changed yet keep voting for the same two parties that have gotten us where we are over the last 158 years. Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result ? If so the American voters are proving their insanity.

I also agree that we need to take care of us first and once we get that done then start helping those who are our true allies if and only if needed and never again try to buy allies.

We are not in this mess Troll.........

Religion and madmen built this mess.

Thank you for the go ahead- Now that we see how the Obama administration got a US Ambassador murdered along with 3 other US Citizens and got caught in the lie trying to cover it up I will gladly vote for Mr. Romney.

Well, considering it's probably full of fresh officers that have better jobs now that their superiors have been sacked, and that it's been demonstrated that Erdogan WILL put his foot down when the military stirs up trouble... I'd say they'll be plenty eager.

SF, one wonders what army you were in.

Turkey does not field an army of careerists and mercenaries who would be glad to move up in rank when their superior officers are arrested by a Gestapo and tried before a kangaroo court. With military service virtually universal for men, the army is a highly respected institution in Turkey and is the guardian of the nation's secular traditions which many suspect Erdogan of attempting to destroy.

Erdogan's dream of reconstituting the Ottoman empire through pan-Islamic policies is in tatters. All his enemies are fellow Moslems. And now, suddenly, he remembers that Turkey is in NATO, the Western alliance.

Not necessarily. Turkey would have to invoke its NATO rights and that has NOT been done yet. Turkey has a tendency to go it alone as long as it can.

This is more likely to drive F-18 sales to Turkey, than to bring in the US military.

BS...they will want good ole America to foot the bill. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.

Dav,

not everyone wants to milk the USA dry. You really need to stop seeing everyone and their aunt as moochers., it only furthers our cynical image that much of the world hates.

Perhaps they should show a little respect for their own people.

Pete. How do you think the US government would respect you if you and a mob attacked it? Would they just stand back ? No way they would pummel you. Take a look at who our own government treats it's people when they don't tow the line....Don't really need to look past Waco, Tx. That group had been settling in at Mount Carmel since the '60s. just think they did not fight back till the ATF and FBI attacked

The UN does not settle anything as they are inept.

Fishman, the rebellion only started after the Syrian police and military repeatedly fired on protesters that were demanding an end to Assad's regime and the establishment of democracy.

It's absurd to toss up the question "wouldn't our government defend itself from rebels?" without addressing any of the circumstances or reasoning surrounding the uprising. If there was a revolution against the US government, then whether or not it would be okay to crush them would defend on several factors, including their demands, their actions, and the initial government response. You can't boil down something that complex so easily.

NATO goes into Lybia an topples a dictatorship tout de suite.

It took about 7 to 8 months of constant bombing before Gadhafi was toppled.

There's no incentive for calling in NATO unless absolutely necessary. Turks aren't going to do squat unless there's something in it for them Getting Russia out of there is golden but having a sane and reasonable trading partner is is priceless. This could be a very big opportunity for Turkey and Israel if they can for a minute put their differences aside and form an alliance for the greater good. Reasonable Turks and Jews can bring peace to an otherwise loony (Arab) Middle East.

you sayin Iran is OK?

they aren't Arabs.

theozman Spoken like a Jew , what happened to your Fing democracy spreaders . the Turks and Israel and off course NATO and our best friends and Alqaida masters ( the Saudis and Qataris ) behind all that , Turky is the aggressor here , they have been training and arming these thugs in Syria , ask Hillary , McCain , Lieberman and Graham our Honorable senators , they will tell you , they have been there setting up all this none sense . Freedom fighters , My ass .

Okay, so what does Israel/Turkey do with all the Syrians, then?

You'd have yet another populace arbitrarily given to another nation agitating for its own country. Aaaaand back to square one...

theozman,

There will never be a resolution between the Jews and the Palestinians, have you ever tried to get something back from a Jew?? Ain't gonna happen, it's in their nature to keep everything they get. If they got a piece of Syria they'll keep that too... new illegal settlements. The right solution to the Jewish/Palestine problem would be to make Jeruselum into a Vatican City type of enclave that is ffree from any country rule and allow free worship. Syria will be better off without Assad, but cannot be allowed to become an Al-Quaida state so some measure of intervention will be necessary sooner rather than later. If it's the Turks... all the better, they are an Islamic country and better suited to the task. The Kurds will eventually have their piece of Iran and can form their own country with the support of the world once "I'm-a-nut-job" is overthrown/out of power. Israel would be alone if they decided to attack Iran and is more a barking dog than an attack dog. Once Iran gets rid of their "nut-job" regime the support for Lebanon's Hamas will diminish. This all will play out over time, not immediately, unless of course Romney wins the presidency and the GOP gets their chance to start another war; then all bets are off. NATO cannot be drawn in, I agree with you on that; not simply because they are getting themselves involved in a border clash, besides they can handle their own affairs. NATO will only become involved if the decide that Syria needs to be changed as was in Libyia or if Turkey is, however outright attacked. The U.S. can't afford another war economically, however, the GOP war machine would sure like to make a few more dollars on the backs of the American middle class.

Did that Train hit you???

The only set back is every few years we get a Democrate in office and these money hungry Republicans have to wait four years to get back to the plan.

Who in the heck attacked and pushed for the overthrow of Libya? A dem without the support of Congress. Obama aided and supplied his Muslim Brothers along with sending jets, missles, drones and Yes boots on the ground. Then when he is called out on it because his brothers attack and kill Ameicans he just lies about the whole thing and blames it on a movie.

NATO, you troll. The French actually led the charge and UAE and Qatar helped in Libya. Spewing untruths and hate mongering is not going to work since anyone one who reads your post knows what a moron you are.

Dear God, this is beautiful. The conspiracy theories are fighting each other!

"There's a slow train comin'.." seems to be right on the money with his or her comment!

Okay, fine, but when the Syrian government gets rid of the terrorists, what do they do with all the rebels and non-violent citizens who legitimately want a corrupt and brutal regime removed?

"Syria did not support PKK"... Are you kidding me? Syria harbored the leader of PKK for years -during time of Hafiz Assaad- , beside that if you are so interested in middle east affairs, there has been a terorist bombing at Antep -the most peaceful and prosperous city in the south-eastern region of Turkey-, that killed eight civilians -one of whom a six month old baby-, which was clearly a message by your beloved assaad. Well if assaad continues this kind of provocation, no country on the face of the earth could save him. We do not want a war of course but if we drawn into one, you can count on that it will be quick and decisive...

Turkey also needs to admit its genocide against the Armenian people and Kurds. Free Kurdistan.

The U.S. has nuclear missiles in Turkey...remember the Cuban missile crisis? This is what precipitated that event. The U.N. sent peacekeepers to Cyprus, Canadian peacekeepers were there for many years and now you don't hear of any violence there.

As for Gary Clarke, Turkey did admit it's genocide years ago and apologized for it.

Turkey did admit it's genocide years ago and apologized for it.

Source?

And may I ask where is President Obama and Billery Clinton? I know... worrying about his campaign.

Troll

"What then"? Well, then you start building a new government. They did it in Libya and Egypt (even if people not living in those places love to whine about the new governments being "worse"), and they did it in Tunisia (albeit it was a peaceful transition). Of course it's not going to be easy; rebuilding after a rebellion never is.

I very much doubt the Russians are going to deploy any soldiers over this. They already get to sell extra weapons, so that's more money in their pockets with no risk. Actually deploying soldiers to protect Syria changes the game completely.

Definitely double standards! (& possibly racist) The UN is a joke in so many ways. And so many "Americans" are against Israel responding to attacks. Why is that ?

im not against isreal responding to attacks. i am against the 30 billion dollars of foreign aid that we send to isreal every year. i am against us getting involved in the isreal palestine conflict. we have to much debt and problems of our own, to be involved in it, or in giving them money. we need to do america first untill we are out of debt, its just that simple.

Proportionate responses.... turkey takes a few mortars, .... fires a "few" howitzer rounds...

Israel takes a few rockets, they send in a brigade and house to house sweeps, destroying houses, blowing holes in walls etc etc..

You have to take in the consideration of the Palestinians ability to fight back... they can't. Syria can.

I fully support Israel in it's being , but yes they get a little carried away from time to time.

Oh it's the opposite and makes complete sense.

Israel is in violation of dozens of UN resolutions, international law and international treaties when it comes to its treatment of the palestinians, its occupation of their land and its settlements on their land.

So the palestinians have a legitimate claim to self-defense, they're trying to gain their freedom. The Syrian government doesn't have such a claim against Turkey.

See, the problem with "kicking someone out" of the UN is that it defeats the entire point of the UN, which is to bring those stubborn countries into a diplomatic club and put them on equal footing with other nations to prevent war. Likewise, power at the UN being proportional to funding would mean that rich countries automatically get their way with an illusion of international consensus. Again, it undermines the point of the organization.

I think one can plausibly argue that a bunch of relatively equal nations is a terrible situation for world peace. This is, basically, the situation that prevailed from Westphalia right up until 1945. Europe wasn't a very peaceful place during that 300 year period from what I can tell. So I'm not so sure the "equal footing" philosophy holds a lot of water.

If anything, the wars have gotten a lot smaller since American hegemony. One could fairly argue, I think, that American hegemony has done more for world peace and stability, more for global economic order, and more to prevent total war than any other force in human history.

The POTUS is to busy golfing, partying with Jay-Z and Boyonce, joking with Letterman, and fund raising to be interested in this situation.