We need to cut spending deeply, and across the board. We should look at what is going on there, and in Greece, as potentially looking in the mirror.

"Austerity isn't working. It is hammering the poorest and the most vulnerable," Brendan Barber, head of the Trades Union Congress, an umbrella group which represents 54 unions...

Yes, and it took years of overspending to get there, and you think it will not hurt to pay off that debt?

Correct

See, exactly as I just said. There are plenty of places to cut the budget. Lots of waste out there. Leave the poor alone.

These people have all monies for war machines and wars in Libya, Syria and in future in Iran.

But for us there are austerity measures.

Wind up that highly corrupt and partisan UN and its agencies, IMF, WB and others for austerity measures.

Centuries old Shiites vs Sunni battles are not ours. For a change let us keep away from them.

Remove sanctions on Iranian oil to crash oil prices and reduce world economic problems.

Just like before each Iraqi wars, autocratic, highly corrupt and despotic bigoted Sunni Sunni Saudi, UAE, Qatar, Kuwaiti and Sunni oil rich nations are stage managing their dances and actions through oil companies, extremist Jewish lobbys and their puppets in the US, Britain, EU and other nations on Syria and Iran.

With sanctions on Iranian oil, oil prices which was around $40 in 2009 has crossed $110 now.

If Iraqi wars gave us PIIGS, there will more nations added to PIIGS.

IRAQ WARS

Net results of Saudi, Kuwait, UAE, oil companies and their lobbyists directed 1991 and 2003 Iraqi wars are

WINNERS

1. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE and other rich ME sharks became richer by manipulating oil prices too high.

2. Oil companies and their lobbyists also benefitted. Oil prices, which were hardly $30 a barrel before 1991, shot up to $140 a barrel.

3. Since 2003, future traders, rating agencies, Wall Street and oil companies and their lobbyists transferred five trillion dollars from oil importing countries to oil exporting nations.

4. Rich Sunni ME sharks (Saudi Arabia in particular) funded Salaffi and Wahhabi mosques and Islamic radicals and terrorists all over the world. These Sunni Islamic radicals and terrorists are rampaging all over the world. World’s 80 percent of problems are due to them.

LOSERS

1. General US and European nations’ public. There have been high unemployment, cut in welfare measures, housing market collapse and more miseries. Since 2001, US spent three trillion dollars on Iraq and Afghan wars. Did the Saudis and co foot the bill?

2. Poor soldiers killed and injured and their families. In Iraq and Afghan wars 6300 soldiers were killed and 40000 injured.

3. High budget deficits and heavier borrowing. Many nations (PIIGS) and people are on line to bankruptcy!

4. Iraq will plunge into bloody sectarian civil wars leading to the creation of Shiastan, Sunnistan and Kurdistan. Here the losses are of Iraqis.

The simple economic fact is countries cannot continue to spend more than they take in revenues! First, countries must eliminate waste and corruption. We need to eliminate redundant agencies and make the remaining ones as efficient as possible! I would like to see the Department of Education, for example, be completely eliminated and 2/3 of their funding be given to each state on a per student basis.

Second, welfare cannot become a way of life. If there is no way out of living completely off of the government there is just going to be a continuous "black hole" of spending! The only way to have this happen is to force individuals to educate themselves, slowly reducing food stamps, etc, until the majority of people in this country on the dole become working, tax paying citizens. I am not saying that we should not take care of the weakest in our society, but, seeing people live for years in section 8 housing and getting more in food stamps than a family of the same size who works is not acceptable.

Last, we need to increase our tax base. This does not mean that we increase taxes, just that we create a broader base by creating jobs through our great capitalist system. The "self interest" of the individuals who risk their labor and money on business should not be eliminated by punitive taxation! Everyone in this country should pay their fair share (this does not mean taking everything from those who have worked their entire lives creating companies through their hard work and long hours), and no one should receive more in federal taxes than they pay. It is ridiculous that illegal alien families received over $50 billion in child tax credits in the last tax year even though they never paid federal taxes. (Just a reminder to you liberal folks: Social security taxes are there for future benefits, as is medicare tax. These are not taxes going to the general fund).

We also need to find a way for this country to be completely energy independent! The country in the world with the most oil, gas, etc is not Saudi Arabia or Iran, it is the good old USA! We need to have a national push to produce as much energy, safely and environmentally concious, as possible. The days of Obama and his enviro-nazis trying to destroy oil, gas, and coal needs to end. We could very well be the envy of the world again in a few short years! (As long as the politicians pull their heads out and fight for the common good of ALL Americans, not just their voters)! There should be research into alternative energies, but, it should be ON TOP of our huge energy reserves, not instead of!

P.S. I still believe that global warming is just another way for liberal politicians throughout the world to tax our country into decay!

Why extend tax breaks to the wealthy when we are in a fiscal crisis ?

Wouldn't it make more sense to tax things such as Capital Gains at least at double at what it is now at 14% ?

Why cut through programs that benefit society as a whole when we could tax the wealthiest few at a fair rate ?

Let's see here. The socialists say that austerity isn't working, but I suppose they think a government spending itself into oblivion will work.

Oh yes, the socialists have the answer, tax anyone that seems to be rich. That will solve all problems and they can then happily continue receiving all their entitlements. If they don't get the expected revenue from the taxes on the rich, no problem, just revise downward the definition of "rich", and keep doing that until the tax revenue is ample enough to provide all the free stuff.

It seems Great Briton is in a hurry to follow the likes of Greece and Spain towards the abyss and for those here in the U.S. that want to see what it's like in the abyss, just re-elect Obama.

We keep hearing all this screeching from progressives about some mythical tax breaks for the wealthy when the facts are that the top 5% pays more income taxes than the remaining 95% combined, but they still claim they're receiving some kind of tax breaks.

Conservatives in this country are not talking about across the board deep spending cuts.

Conservatives are not really talking about spending cuts at all. Since when has a Republican administration not run a deficit? The last surplus was under Clinton. Ford was the last Republican president to lower the debt (as % of GDP). At this point Democrats are no better. Democrats spend on social programs. Republicans cut taxes and then spend on war. Either way we are going down. Vote for Gary Johnson if you want real change, but 95% of you are sheeple and will vote Republicrat again, so you can expect the US to go down in flames. Don't blame politicians either, YOU voted for them.

It seems Great Briton is in a hurry to follow the likes of Greece and Spain towards the abyss and for those here in the U.S. that want to see what it's like in the abyss, just re-elect Obama.

Or Mitt Romney

We keep hearing all this screeching from progressives about some mythical tax breaks for the wealthy when the facts are that the top 5% pays more income taxes than the remaining 95% combined, but they still claim they're receiving some kind of tax breaks.

Let's go though a hypothetical scenario. We have 100 people. 99 of them make 1000 umpas a year and pay a 50% take rate. That's 99 * 500 = 49500 umpas in taxes collected. Now the remaining guy makes 1000000 umpas a year and pays 5% in taxes. That's 1 * 50000 = 50000 umpas collected. So 1% of the population pays over 50% of the taxes. The country of Umpatania is however running a deficit and needs to take in at least 125000 umpas a year to provide services. Who should pay more?

I'm just trying to point out that quoting these type of statistics does not always make sense.

The Brits, even the Tories, are far, far, far more humane than the Americans, by nature. And it looks like as a country, they are coming to their senses.

The 400 richest Americans are $400 billion richer this year than last year according to Forbes magazine.

In '86 Reagan raised taxes, the economy grew. In '90 Bush raised taxes, the economy grew. In '93 Clinton raised taxes, the economy grew. A budget surplus followed.

If you raise taxes, the economy grows. Why? The rich have to work harder to recoup the lost money. They have the money or access to capital. So they spend more on advertising/salespeople. They spend more on research and development on new processes or equipment refurbishment. They spend money retrofitting buildings to be energy efficient.

Raise taxes on the rich, the economy grows.

They are going to try to do the same thing here (austerity) after the election no matter which party wins the White House.

Obama's Debt Commission was stacked with deficit hawks and sworn enemies of Social Security and Medicare, like Allan Simpson and Erskine Bowls and Romney if anything is even worse.

Austerity won't help the create jobs (It will destroy them) or the economy but it will decimate the standard of living of millions of americans and transfer more wealth to the rich from everyone else.

Forget about the corporate media "fact checking" the statements of Obama and Romney (including MSNBC, NBC is owned by GE the huge defense contractor) . They and their advertisers (where they get all of their money) have too much to lose to tell you the truth.

Here's some facts you won't read on any of the major media outlets:

1. Both presidential candidates, Obama/Romney want to cut corporate taxes because they say they are among the highest in the world and it will create jobs. But what they don't tell you is that they are talking about the nominal rate (the rate that's on the books) as opposed to the effective rate (the rate they really pay. In reality they have been cutting effective corporate tax rates for the last 30-40 years and we have higher unemployment than we have ever had.

http://www.responsibletaxes.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/corp-income-tax.gif

Corporate taxes made up 42% of Federal Revenue in 1949, since then we have been cutting the effective rate till they pay only 6-7% of revenue now.

Has that created jobs?

2. We didn't get out of the Great Depression by cutting spending. We got out by spending more than we ever had, first on New Deal programs then on top of that WWII.

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/sites/www.intellectualtakeout.org/files/chart-graph/Total%20Federal%20Expenditures%20as%20a%20Percent%20of%20GDP%201930-2004.JPG

3. We also didn't cut social programs like Social Security and Unemployment Insurance during the Great Depression we CREATED THEM in the depths of the Great Depression.

Wikipedia: In the United States, Social Security refers to the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance (OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs.

Wikipedia: Through the Social Security Act of 1935, the federal government of the United States effectively encouraged the individual states to adopt unemployment insurance plans.

4. We didn't get out of the Great Depression by getting government off of the backs of business during the 1930's the government expanded and during WWII completely took over the economy, including wage and price controls (It's called a Command Economy).

During World War II, the United States practiced command economy when the government took over factories and planned production for the war effort. Every aspect of American life was in some way influenced by government involvement in the economy.

http://www.netplaces.com/economics/thats-not-the-way-we-do-things/command-economies.htm

5. We didn't beat the Great Depression and the Axis Powers during WWII with the "Free-Market"

The free-market (Called Laissez Faire in the 1920s) got us into the Great Depression:

As president...Harding followed laissez faire to the letter. He rejected a minimum wage and always sided with company owners during strikes, "American business isn't a monster. It is the guardian of our happiness." During the President's Conference on Unemployment in 1921, Harding remarked that any plan involving government spending would increase trouble.

Balanced Budget

After Harding's untimely death in 1923, Calvin Coolidge grasped the laissez faire baton. "The chief business of the American people is business," he proclaimed. Business was also a religion to Coolidge, "The man who builds a factory builds a temple...The man who works there worships there." Further, "man has a right to make as much money as he can, and the more money he makes, the more he can pay his workmen."

http://suite101.com/article/laissez-faire-of-the-1920s-a171381

The only thing the policies of both presidential candidates is designed to do is transfer more power and wealth from the middle class to the super rich.

They just have different tactics for accomplishing the same goal and there-in lies the controversy among our elites.

Which party is more effective at getting them what they want….Everything.

Swan 2.12

As expected a silly hypothetical scenario that has you employing various percentages in an attempt to make your case. Just be honest and say what you really want and that is most of the earnings from those people that you characterize as rich. That is the marxist mentality and if that is done, those that work hard to earn this money will no longer have any incentive to work hard, because why should they expend such effort only to have the results of their labors confiscated?

You said:

I'm just trying to point out that quoting these type of statistics does not always make sense.

As if fabricating such contrived scenarios makes any sense.

The facts are that the lion's share of the tax revenue comes from the wealthy, yet the socialists want ever more, and will want still more after they squander everything they get. As is evident in Europe, there isn't enough money anywhere for socialism to work. It is inherently self destructive.

P.S. Lot's of posters here promoting marxism. I wonder if they realize that's what they're doing?

Finally, people are making sense on this posts.

Wet Willy, the rich should pay more in taxes. They should be ashamed of themselves for how greedy they have become. And, these social programs are not hand outs. The working class have invested into these social programs over their life time; social security, retirement, homes that have been taken away, jobs that have made the rich richer, communities that are being controlled by the rich, unemployment. The working class has either invested their money, sweat and tears, or broken backs into these programs and Fox news tries to con the people out of demanding their returns on these investments. And who owns the Fox news media? The rich. The rich have become corrupt in this country. There is a class war in America and the rich have started the war.

I'm glad to see people post the truth on austerity. Buy Local!

There's always some young rich jerk on here trying to convince us that we, the liberal democrats are takers when your fox news mentality writiings are not going to change life experiences. I live in a stupid repubican hell state, right to work, right? The tea party republican rich crazys are unreasonable. They expect the working class to pay for a baseball stadium or take care of their investment mistake with our tax dollars, but when it comes to healthcare for someone who needs an organ, they just let them die. Yes, our governor just let them die. She took away the funding and let them die. And this happened in America. So your stupid buckle down talk to people on this site is very offensive and immature. And I know you think, well they earned their money why should they have to pay for someone's healthcare. Because they didnt earn their money. They took, stole and conned people out of their money. There isn't a level playing field so they didn't earn it in a honest way like a gangster and in my book they didn't earn it. The wallstreet crash was a con, the housing mortgage issue was a con, healthcare insurance is a con, the war in Irag was a con. Take your stupid talk back to fox news.

Why is austerity mostly imposed on the middle and lower class after the corp / cartels / bankers / thieves have skimmed all of the cream and left them in the lurch ? There is plenty to go around.. Mahatma Gandihi said - there is enough on this earth for every man's need but never enough for one man's greed !

Swan,

Then you would raise taxes on whomever can withstand the higher tax rate. Raise the 1,000,000 umpa/year to 15% for 150,000 umpas; that person still takes 850,000 umpas form themselves. If they cannot live off of that then they are living too extravagantly.

And the radical, right wing conservative Romney/Ryan want to expand the Defense, military, and Govt./civilian contract spending without saying how they'll cover this vast expense. Which is by raising the middle class taxes as they lower the wealthy elite taxes. Because they need more money to hire the invisible more people to work. In reality it's not for hiring, but for placing more hording of money in their deep greedy pockets, or spending on campaigns. The cutbacks should start at the Government levels first. Just as what happens at home when you run out of money, you stop buying. It is so obvious that the conservative method in other countries is not working, and the same would happen here. They could care less about the 47%, or anyone outside the 2% elite.

Vote the Republican self-serving elite only greed out of Office. Vote straight a straight Democratic ticket across the board. They at least care about us, even if it isn't always for what we may want, or as fast as we want it.

Wake up working class 2.17

Pay attention. The rich do indeed pay more in taxes. In fact they pay, by far, the most, a fact conveniently and consistently ignored by you socialists.

With a few exceptions of inherited wealth (Kennedy's Rockefellers, etc.) the rich started out as poor but worked harder and smarter to become rich but you would liken such hard working people to gangsters and such. You simply ooze Marxist envy because you obviously dislike any that has more than you do because you weren't willing to make the same sacrifices they did. Your slogan is one of: "Take it from them and give it to me".

As expected a silly hypothetical scenario that has you employing various percentages in an attempt to make your case.

The only case I'm making is to point out that simply throwing numbers out has limited value. You on the other hand just throw names around like Marxist and make no point whatsoever. Meanwhile I'll be voting for Gary Johnson who is at least offering something new. Who will you be voting for? Mitt Romney? We have already see what the Republicans (as well as Democrats) do. Tax and spend, or rather borrow and spend (even worse). Republicans are NOT fiscally responsible. They just claim to be.

Oh ya, I have to add to my earlier posts about our governor. While she pulled the funding for people in need of organs, who died, our taxes were going towards housing her son in a nice expensive nut house for the rich because he raped someone. And this is why the rich should pay more in taxes because they are granted ENTITLEMENTS that are not known to the working tax payer. And our sheriff, Joe Arpio, we paid his vacation expenses to go to Hawaii to investigate the presidents birth certificate. All while people died. When I saw that little girl in her hospital bed on the news who was sick, waiting for an organ, while the people in Arizona were fighting for her right to get an organ, it made me sick. YOU TEA PARTY PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK.

Wet willy, at least the gangster kennedys fought for the working class! What is your problem! You can twist it all around in any direction so that you can make your point that we should all suffer because the rich deserve to keep every red cent at every expense but the truth is, it is not humane and they don't deserve it. This isn't capitalism when the rich become so corrupt to the point where they steal from the working people. It's not socialism when the working people get returns on their investements, social programs. This is just retard talk from fox news. No, I don't give a damn about ideology over people.

Weird Willy, Why do you assume the working class is jealous of the rich just because I'm tired of them stealing my hard earmed money. I'm jealous of the doctor who can help people who are sick, the teacher that cares about children, the firefighter that would give his life to help others. The police officer that protects my neighborhood. Not the fat cat lobbyist that takes money from the rich to rob the working poor. Get your priorities straight and stop talking fox news crap.

@ Wet Willy

The rich do NOT pay more in taxes than the middle class. They pay a higher DOLLAR AMOUNT. Basic math shows that 15% of $10,000,000 is a higher dollar amount than 25% of $50,000. Also, the deductions that Romney wants to eliminate (child welfare tax credit and mortgage deduction etc) will primarily effect the middle class and leave the wealthy virtually untouched, thus it is little more than a further tax HIKE on the people that need the money the MOST!

Level the playing field. They need to be paying just as much as the rest of us. There is no Fox News spin you can put on it to make that heinous tax disparity right.

You cannot impoverish a society enough to make a nation prosperous.

This is as old as culture itself, and the results are predictable. When the moneyed few take too much (income inequality at extremes right now), the masses rise up. It happens inexorably. And it IS happening NOW.

You Ayn Randers are also lovers of death. Because when you are selfish, only care about accumulating more material wealth with no thought to the harm you are doing to your fellow man and to your communities, you can sit there and expound about your economic theories all you want, but masses of men will not simply say, wow.. youre right, I havent been as clever, as rapacious as you, so I suppose I should just lay down and die. That does NOT happen. People rise up, and they drag people like You Ayn Randers off...

Thats what history shows us, and that IS what will happen now. You cant change that. Human nature doesnt just go in one direction, and that is towards rewarding the rapacious. It also goes the other way, towards enabling the disenfranchised.

The time is coming again. You Ayn Rander types should start being afraid. Youre on the wrong side of this one...

Way back in 1990 when Democrats controlled Congress, they met behind closed doors to hammer out a budget with all kinds of politics strewn throughout the process and in their final plan. Eager to score political class-warfare points with their base, whose values they seriously misread, Democrats imposed a 10 percent “luxury” tax on recreational boats that cost more than $100,000. Their misguided attempt to kneecap the wealthy was a source of pride for them. After all, anyone who could afford a yacht costing more than $100,000 deserved to be punished — right?

Now, in yet another class-warfare misfire, President Obama is rummaging for cheap political points by attempting to tax corporate jets. Apparently, if one uses a private jet, even for business, one must be punished. Obama, in fulfilling his 2008 campaign promise to “redistribute the wealth,” has determined that businesses investing in a private jet should have their current tax break for accelerated depreciation decreased. It’s a blunder that will grow the unemployment ranks, rather than shrink the deficit.

Democrats in Congress made the same huge blunder with the ill-conceived boat luxury tax two decades ago. Democrats aimed at the rich, but instead hurt workers who build the larger crafts as boat manufacturers were forced to lay off employees when sales plummeted. They also crippled suppliers of materials used to manufacture the boats as well as related recreational industries associated with the boats, and seemingly non-related businesses in the towns where decimated boat manufacturing businesses operated and employed workers. Tens of thousands of jobs were lost, and untold thousands more related livelihoods were negatively affected by Congress’s social engineering. Owners of boat manufacturing plants joined hundreds of the very workers they were forced to lay off to march on the steps of the U.S. Capitol protesting the job-killing tax that hurt not the rich, but rather the workers and small-business owners. (In the interest of full disclosure and out-and-out bragging, I happily and proudly helped organize the rally and the successful boat luxury tax repeal campaign.)

As then-President George H.W. Bush said in his 1992 State of the Union address, appealing to Democrats to stop engaging in destructive class warfare and support his budget, which included repeal of the tax, “When they aim at the big guy, they usually hit the little guy. And maybe it’s time that stopped.”

The wealthy are usually wealthy for a reason — first and foremost because they are not stupid about their disposable income. When Congress imposed a tax on yachts, the wealthy simply spent their money elsewhere: on ski condos, beach houses, and varied and sundry other recreational investments not subjected to such ridiculous class-warfare luxury taxation. So the anticipated tax revenue was never going to be achieved anyway — not that the revenue itself was ever really the point.

Were President Obama even a C student of history, he would have absorbed the lessons of the boat luxury tax and avoided the clumsy repeat with the corporate jet tax. This latest revenge-on-the-rich ruse will allegedly bring in a mere $3 billion to the U.S. Treasury over the next decade, which is barely a drop in the $4 trillion deficit-reduction bucket needed to drag the economy out of the quicksand. Yet recently, this “drop” was front and center as Obama’s key talking point, proving to all the veracity of his commitment to class warfare as a centerpiece of his reelection campaign.

But just whom does the president hope to have on his side? In a joint letter to Obama, the heads of the General Aviation Manufacturers Association (GAMA) and the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAMAW) expressed alarm at the proposal that is almost certain to cost jobs in their industry, which has only just begun a slow recovery. “While such talk may appear to some as good politics, the reality is that it hurts one of the leading manufacturing and exporting industries in the United States.” This, from the head of a major labor union.

Just as in the case of the boat luxury tax debacle of the early 1990s, the result of a corporate jet tax hike would never bring in the anticipated revenue — and yet again, that was never the point, anyway.

Its amazing to me..does anyone notice that for every country now claiming all these cuts which effect only the middle class and poor of each country..not one cut is made to or against any income of any politican in any of these country's..including now the USA ? Each and every dollar that the politicans in this country is going spend is going to their wealthy benefactors...lobbyist...consider just who and what companies make any kind of product for our military..and much of which is over charged for. Every dime spent will use up tax dollars on those who do not need it and companies who hand out millions to politicans through their lobbyist.

Wake up working class

You have adopted the usual socialist rhetoric claiming the rich can only get that way by stealing money from the poor, and are therefore somehow corrupt. Another poster insists the rich don't pay more in taxes but acknowledges they pay more money but not more in terms of some percentage.

There is no pleasing such loons since they just want more money, period. As for the poor, they are being kept poor not by the rich but by our socialist president where entitlement spending now exceeds one trillion dollars per year, and that doesn't include social security or Medicare. This massive entitlement system is the greatest harm that can be perpetuated on people because it enslaves them.

I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer. – Benjamin Franklin

T Melora - your rhetoric is increasingly falling on deaf ears. People, Melora - PEOPLE are angry, and all the spin from the plutocrat-controlled media isn't going to change that basic fact. When PEOPLE, Melora, are losing jobs, homes, who have lost stability and are driven into bankruptcy for healthcare, YES, - they get angry, and tooting on about something as inane as a 10% tax on luxury boats falls flat. We are angry. I dont know what kind of a lifestyle YOU lead, Melora - but in my suffering old mill town, someone is lucky enough to own a few innertubes strapped to wooden boards, let alone a sea-worthy vessel.

See, Melora, the biggest problem people like you have, is a certain kind of tone-deafness. Between your debating about "entitlements" and "austerity" and "free market" and all the other nonsense, are PEOPLE - real, living, breathing, frail, mortal, people - with hopes, and dreams, and fears. People who suffer, and cry at night. People who are being demoralized, beat down, and told they are nothing but entitled freeloaders when they lose thier jobs that were sent overseas, and now need help.

The town I live in, was once self-sufficient. Everyone who wanted to work, really COULD. There were no credit checks, no peeing in cups, no ridiculous long application processes, for a handful of mediocre, low-paying jobs for hundreds of desperate people. No - the person with a high school diploma could show up at the office of any factory, and get work.

AVERAGE people, Melora. Now you have rhetoric about highly skilled workers vyying for the jobs of "tomorrow". News-flash, we need jobs TODAY, AND, not everyone can be a highly skilled worker. The definition of average, is the bulk of the population. Not everyone can be above average.

This economy has failed the PEOPLE. It has been dismantled by the rich you are so eager to protect. If Capitalism no longer serves the PEOPLE, which has become very clear at this point that it does NOT, then we need a new system. Let the whole thing implode, drag the rich bastards out of their mansions - I wont drop a tear.

As for you, bar the gate.

Because people are ANGRY. WE are sick and tired of this ANCIENT rhetoric about how when the rich take so much that we are crawling in the streets, it is WE who are lazy, WE who need to just "get a job" - when it is THEY who gutted our markets, shuttered our small businesses, and are now demanding we sacrifice basic necessities because of thier rapaciousness.

It doesnt work that way. Regardless of what you say, when you impoverish the MASSES of a nation, they WILL rise up. You dont like that we are "beating up on the rich?" perhaps they should have thought of that say... 30 years ago when they foisted trickle-down economics on us, and set corporate raiders on our communities.

Now the chickens are coming home to roost. The PEOPLE, Melora - wont just curl up and die because you toss around words like entitlements and austerity and budget-deficits. These were all caused by decades of machinations by a moneyed few, and the PEOPLE ALWAYS have the last word....

You dare to go on about 10% luxury tax nonsense from the 1990s - when all around you, people are struggling to simply keep a roof over thier head and scrape up enough money to put gas in the car, to get to a job that if they are lucky, pays a living wage.

I think you dont understand the pain that is happening, and the anger that all of your rhetoric cant do a whit about. This is a force larger than you can imagine, and that austerity only quickens. You can only push the masses so far. And they are reaching their breaking point.

You just dont get it. And thats always the way it goes when the rich take too much. They just dont get it until they are being dragged out of thier cushy beds in the middle of the night by an angry mob.

Wet Willy, you desperately want reality to be something other than what it is. People are reacting to real suffering. Socialism is just fine with me, because the current system - and I could give a poop less if you call it ham on rye. Call it whatever you want, but the CURRENT system is failing the PEOPLE, Willy. So we seek a new system. One that doesnt enrich the few while driving the PEOPLE into abject poverty. An economic system and government must work for the people. When the people work for the system, then it WILL change.

You can go on all you want, throw those terms around - capitalism, socialism, austerity, blah blah blah. The people know when they are suffering. And there is suffering. There is destabilization, there is disintegration of communities. You think that a rich minority can hold back the inexhorable force that is millions of disillusioned people by yelling "SOCIALISTS!" Think again. If anything, we are going to say to the likes of you - GOOD, then we are SOCIALISTS - now get out of our towns, get out of our banks. Thats whats going to happen.

At the end, reality trumps rhetoric. And reality is upon you, Willy. People are suffering, and they will rise up to stop the suffering. Simple as that.

I took a grant writing course last year and was horrified to learn about some of the wasteful, government-sponsored grants that are available or have been awarded. For example, $250,000 to teach job-hunting skills to eight (only 8!) Saudi Arabian women. Lots of grants to teach English to illegal Mexican agricultural workers. And in the meantime, our K-12 schools are suffering, and American low- and middle-class kids can't afford college. When you've got some spare time, poke around grants.gov. You won't believe what our government is wasting money on.

Excellent questions:

Why don't people understand that if the govt doesn't cut back while it can, eventually EVERYBODY gets cut off?

Why don't people understand that what's yours is NOT mine and what's mine is not yours?

Why don't people accept that private property is just that - private?

Who owes the middle class anything and why? Why should only the wealth of middle class be protected (rather than all classes)?

Why don't all these college educated people understand that austerity measures are for govt spending and NOT that of the private sector?

Why don't people accept the fact that most people don't become rich by being greedy?

Why are the people who are usually vocal about not being judgmental or bigoted the most judgmental and bigoted when it comes to wealthier people?

The sad fact is corporations with their governments help screwed the free world to make profits off the backs of developing nations. The elite of the world, took all that they could, and now live in places like Dubai built from the losses of wealth from patriots of the allegiance of western countries. These companies and politicians only allegiance was to their pocketbook. They supported communist and religious sects, which allowed them to expand and influence others. "Middle East" "China" your new leaders.

The inevitable result of when the takers demand more than the makers can supply is anarchy. That's where many countries are headed, including the USA.

Obama, a f e--or to put it another way--

Democracy fails when those who WORK for a living are outnumbered by those who VOTE for a living.

Start charging a RESIDENCY TAX for every person regardless of age!!!!

Why are 20 people allowed to live in one house and the single home owner next door is responsible for sending THEIR KIDS to school?

If you are living in a country, you are responsible for its upkeep!

Austerity has never worked. It did not work for Hoover and it is not working for England.

When David Cameron became PM, and announced his austerity plans — buying completely into both the confidence fairy and the invisible bond vigilantes — many were the hosannas, from both sides of the Atlantic. Pundits here urged Obama to “do a Cameron”; Cameron and Osborne were the toast of Very Serious People everywhere.

Now Britain is officially in double-dip recession, and has achieved the remarkable feat of doing worse this time around than it did in the 1930s.

Click the link and look at the charts. England was doing ok until austerity was enacted.

Growth is more important than deficits.

Is Austerity to Blame for the UK's Recession? - The Daily Beast

Austerity = spending what you take in! Is this so difficult?

Perhaps the failed experiment was the legacy of the Reagan regime from the 1980's. This concept of 'Supply Side' or perhaps better called Voodoo economics.

The concept of freeing industries to self regulate is another brilliant idea from the same think tanks. That worked really well in implementing bills to overcome the safeguards that were put in place back in the 1930's by the FDR administration. At least there were a few beneficiaries of Gramm-Leachy-Bliley Act of 1999; namely the authors of the bill and the puppet politicians who put their names on it.

I guess Reagan had to be a failure! Cutting inflation from the teens to around two percent is just such a terrible thing! Dramatically lowering unemployment and taking people off of the public dole, a travesty! Increasing the GDP and increasing the tax levels paid to the government, class destruction! I have to admit, you libs are just a barrel of fun!

BTW, illumination, the only supply-side economy being tried now is being done on the GOVERNMENT side! Why is it that liberals think that when the government "creates" jobs it will boost the economy, that they think that the capitalist economy cannot do the same! Actually, the capitalists create jobs with a minimum of waste and you cannot say the same about government job "creation"! "Trickle down government"!

miklkit, Austerity is what happens when the credit cards max out. All this spending in the West was at the expense of future debt. LOADS of debt.

Rather than borrow, government should have been helping private enterprise create those jobs along with products and innovation that could have been shipped overseas. Then everyone would enjoy prosperity to the degree they are capable and a safety net could be sustained for those who are not able for reasons of disability, old age etc.

Americans are meaner than Europeans by nature, and less honest. That's why they love war, social Darwinism and unrestrained capitalism so much.

Many of those "mean" Americans are buried in Europe having died freeing them from other meaner Europeans.

America is a group. Like it or not we are a big tribe with many more people than just men aged 20-50. If we don't take care of and plan for a group America wil fall away..lose all its strength. A chain is as strong as its weakest links. The weaker links must be strengthened..the disabled, the elderly, the not so competent, the children who will replace us, the weak regulations that make the whole stay together. As individuals we have certain freedoms but also responsibilities. Freedom without responsibility fails. Why is this country still fighting Republican vs Democrats, like cheerleaders at some football game. We should be doing as the Greeks, the Spainish, the Brits and calling for better Societies. Who cares what labels get used. Its about what is best for the People of the country.

The debts aren't caused by Public programs. The debts are caused by Wars, Crooked Bank/Wall Street schemes that theived from the entire world. The waste...like already mentioned here for robot squirrels, big parties with lots od free political booze, free lunch expense accounts, lobbyists and subsidies for the richest Corporations, tax loopholes for them, Outsourcing despite all the benefits we give them. Our group is crumbling and we should be trying to preserve our group. OHH the Democrats with their neolib "free Trade", OHH the Republicans with their austerity for people but spending for Banks and Corporations.

Can't we as Americans demand whats best for our People. We are our country. 99% of us are getting the shaft from Politics. I don't want to us like go the way of Austerity. Let the Banks/Wall Street, true waste go for Austerity. We are not the Problem. Our austerity will not pay any debt. The debt comes from somewhere else certain people don't want us to see from where.

Obama, a

You know that you have described exactly what is going on in the USA right now right? The "Takers", aka richest of the rich, are taking all of the country's monetary supply from the "Makers", the Middle Class. The wealth disparity is at heights not seen since before the Great Depression, we are nearing a 90 to 10 gap greatly favoring the super rich.

Why are they not spending all of this equity? Surly they can increase worker pay, even if there is not enough demand to create more production, with that kind of money? So why don't they? Because they are too greedy is why. That is the pitfall of Capitalism; humans are too greedy. Greedy for power, greedy for money, greedy for sex, greedy for material goods. We are greedy often to the point of our own destruction.

The only way to stop that propensity for greed is to be altruistic, you have to want to want to stop being greedy in order to accomplish it and Today's American rich boy just will not give up their multi-million $ mansions nor their elite lifestyle, even if it means the ruination of the country in an economic sense.

Julea Bacall,

If Public programs are not a problem, how do you explain California debt problem. It has nothing to do with anything you have listed. It is all do to Public programs and unrealistic government pensions and benefits. California is not the only state either, about 35 to 40 states and the Federal government need to reign in Public programs and government retirement and benefits.

Calif. has many problems caused by the Private Sector. San Jose is suing many Banks which they used with Wall Street to gamble our money and they got extremely shorted. They need the money back from the scams. We need the money back from their gambling. Another problem from which we never recovered, is Enron. They had us paying a million dollars a day for electricy one summer and they bankrupted us. Another was Outsourcing for the SF bridge which turned out to cost us twice what it would have using American Companies. Very little was from Public Service which taxes are supposed to be for but which have to suffer because of "Pivate" Pirates.

Julia, your proposal to eliminate the private sector and go 100% government is outstanding!!!!!

My understanding, regarding the banks and investments is the state was DISSATISFIED with a SAFE 2% and had ordered the banks to go for 12% annual return, understanding the risk involved.

I for one am absolutely in agreement with you in that the state and municipalities in trouble should have calculated a SAFE 2% return and calculated pensions accordingly.

Regrettably the investment LOST money and pensions are calculated based on an 8% gain annually. A number which cannot end well!

Roll back pensions to the 2% value and in future keep out of the banking business and all will bee good in California.

I'm guessing that was more due to one long-distance phone call in the middle of the night rather than pressure by union leaders.

denver bill 2

I'm guessing that was more due to one long-distance phone call in the middle of the night rather than pressure by union leaders.

But why did those long distance calls even occur if not because of the union leader pressures?

Europe is so politically and socially advance than American culture... lets be like them. (snicker)

(Flame sings: I'm proud to be an American at least I know I',m Free....)

IA Scooter tramp--yep, he SURE did. And does ANYONE want to take any bets on the test results on Chitown's students going up ONE iota?

culheath

But why did those long distance calls even occur if not because of the union leader pressures?

Good point. Indirect pressure is still pressure.

Nurses, cleaners, librarians and ambulance drivers

These are working people. Why should they do their jobs for free? It seems to me it is not the working people who are looking for a hand out, it is the so- called "job creators" who aren't doing their jobs. They're the ones that want everything for free!

dave-735909

Nurses, cleaners, librarians and ambulance drivers

These are working people. Why should they do their jobs for free?

You present a false dilemma. The choices aren't limited to (1) get paid more or (2) work for free.

dave: Then they can go get another non government job then. No one forces you to work for the government. But I suspect, that in Britian, just as it has become in the USA, government workers get paid more than their private sector counterparts.

Sorry, I don't feel obligated to lower my standard of living through tax increases so someone else can keep a government job that pays them more than for the same job I do in a non government setting.

Then your problem is that you do not get paid enough, not that they get paid too much? Why don't you find another job that pays more? Maybe, you should just drive yourself to the hospital so that you don't have to pay them at all. Once you are there, take your own pulse, and empty your own bed pan. As you say, why should they lower their standard of living to improve yours?

If he is happy, with his job, why are you concerned, do you propose that every should make more money?

dave: If my suspicion is correct and they are already making more than their private sector counterparts, why should I have any obligation to go through all the trouble of finding a new job to pay more taxes so they can keep a job that already pays them more than I make?

I'm perfectly happy in my job. I'm happy with what I make. I know if I perform well then I will be compensated accordingly, and that has been proven to me by past pay increases.

They are the ones complaining. Not me. Let them go find another job if they're not happy with it. I guarantee you there will be others willing to take their old job for the same amount or even less pay.

Why is it that government workers always feel they have an absolute right to a job working for the government, and an absolute right for others to pay for their standard of living.

Once you are there, take your own pulse, and empty your own bed pan. As you say, why should they lower their standard of living to improve yours?

Amazing, you just described the attitude many government workers already have. If they have a job, just because they are getting paid doesn't mean that they should actually have to do any work to keep that job. They should just get to keep that standard of living without actually having to do anything to earn it.

That's exactly what you just described in your example. They have a job, but don't feel they should actually have to perform any work in order to keep that job.

Better think that through a bit more thoroughly next time.

ConservativeNotRepublican great posts and most people are actually on the same page as you.

ConservativeNotRepublican

dave: If my suspicion is correct and they are already making more than their private sector counterparts,

Your suspicion is unfounded. It falls into the same myth category as "government doesn't create jobs".

Which given your claim that government workers make more than their private market counter parts, is like saying that "this thing here I am talking about does not exist." Of course government creates jobs.

The only difference between government job creation and private job creation is that government jobs are not making private individuals profit.

When you account for both wages and benefits, Uncle Sam is generous toward those with less than a college degree and stingy toward those with PhDs or professional degrees.

According to the CBO, the federal government employs a lot more workers with doctorates or professional degrees than private sector companies do (7 percent of the workforce vs. 3 percent of the workforce). Nonetheless, when you look at the overall number, they figure that the federal government's payroll is 16 percent higher than it would be if it paid its workers private sector scales.

Another interesting result: If you look at the range between the lowest and highest paid workers, it's about the same in the public and private sectors for both high school grads and college grads. But the private sector has a way higher range for those with doctorates. The federal government tops out at about $70/hour in wages for the top decile of workers while the private sector tops out at about $140. If you were to look at the top 1 percent instead of the top 10 percent, the difference would probably be even starker.

None of this should come as a big surprise. Federal jobs have always been plum positions for blue-collar workers, while for highly-educated professionals it's something you do if you either want a lot of job security or are really dedicated to public service. If you're a doctor or a lawyer, you can almost certainly do better in private practice than you can working for the government.

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/01/chart-day-federal-government-pay-vs-private-sector-pay

Culheath- You don't understand do you? It's not just the "pay" its the other perks that go with a government job. You know, the RETIREMENT, healthcare, all the federal holidays that you get paid for and so on. In the past working for the government didn't pay as much as the private sectore so the government used it's taxing power to add benefits to the total package to sweeten the deal. Now many government jobs do pay more than a similar job in the private sectore but they still get the SAME benefits package. Then we have the scum public sector unions that threaten/pay-off politicians to get even higher pay and benefits and guess who gets to pay that bill? It's all of us that don't work for the government.

About 7 years ago I was Helena, Montana. I pickup the local morning paper and began to read a story about the local school boards retirement plan for the teachers. It seems that they didn't hire the right person to handle the investments in the retirement dept. The guy lost about 15% or so of the total portfolio. So the school board was voting to raise school taxes on the citenzery to make-up for the loose. That's funny something similar happend at a PRIVATE SECTOR job I had once and guess what they told us? Too, bad you get less now when you retire. Why was the school board even contemplating raising taxes to cover this? It's much easier to send out the memo saying "We screwed up now you get less in 20 years when you retire unless we get lucky again."

The governement spends yours, your neighbors and my money I demand they be darn careful with every last penny.

One of my favorite quotes is from Margret Thatcher "Socialism is great till you run out of other peoples money." It's so ironic how if you use the initials of "Other Peoples Money" it sounds a lot like a certain drug. OPM. And politicians can't wait to get more.

Culheath: I fully admit that I'm not absolutely certain about the pay scale in Britian. That's why I said it was just a suspicion. But, I do know that it is absolutely the case here in America for a large number of government jobs, and that is what my real point is.

The number of government workers making six figures has exploded under Obama. With the sole exception of debt, the government can not create ANYTHING without first taking away from someone else.

I do not exist to ensure the employment of some government worker. I do not exist to serve the state. America is NOT the Federal Government. I am NOT the personal ATM of the Federal Government.

Cashonfire: I forget, was I supposed to pay you 10 or 20 for posting that ;-)~

Seriously, thanks for compliment, it is much appreciated. But in reality, it doesn't seem to me to be much more than just using a little common sense and logic. Something that is lacking far too often these days it seems.

Austerity has never worked. Cutting taxes has not worked in the USA for 30 years. Taxes are the lowest since before the Great Depression. Where are the jobs????? They are sitting in Swiss bank accounts.

To all of you crybabies whining about how much government workers make, remember that those Union teachers in Wisconsin were making about $35,000 a year, while those non-Union factory workers at Sensata in Illinois were making about $35,000 a year until Romney's Bain Capital shipped their factory to China. Romney's Bain Capital is coming for your job next.

Romney Ignores Bainport While Trying to Take Back 47% Comments

Flame77_7

Europe is so politically and socially advance than American culture... lets be like them. (snicker)

(Flame sings: I'm proud to be an American at least I know I',m Free....)

Yeah, Euro John Lennon sang:

you think your so clever and classless and free

well, you're still all f**king peasants as far as I can see

I do not understand when I hear people saying "government creates jobs"! The fact is that every government job eliminates more than one job in private industry. If you create 1000 government jobs you could eliminate 1200 private sector jobs! If you create 100,000,000 government jobs then you have absolutely no private sector and no tax revenue to pay for the government jobs! "Oh what a web we weave when we plan to deceive"!

culheath: And there is at least one person close to Lennon that said he became far more conservative politically in his later years. Others disagree.

So, we are left with this conundrum: Either Lennon held to his early political beliefs, and if true, then was just another left wing limousine liberal who, as liberals always do, applied a different standard to those on the right who had attained wealth and fame than to those on the left...

Or....

He really did change, and came to understand that what people makes does not belong to the government. I think it's pretty clear that many British celebrities who attain worldwide fame and don't have to work in Britain, leave Britain precisely because of their tax code. Something tells me he didn't leave Britain because he just wanted to live in America.

If you need modern confirmation of that, watch France over the next couple of years as the wealthy leave that country to avoid paying 75 percent of what they make to the government.

Tell that to your great grandparents. Hoover tried austerity and the Great Depression got worse. FDR came up with the New Deal that put Americans to work building America, and it worked. We had 9% growth during most of the 1930s.

Upon deeper examination, I discovered that the right bases its New Deal revisionism on the short-lived recession in a year straddling 1937 and 1938. But that was four years into Roosevelt’s term—four years marked by spectacular economic growth. Additionally, the fleeting decline happened not because of the New Deal’s spending programs, but because Roosevelt momentarily listened to conservatives and backed off them. As Nobel-winning economist Paul Krugman notes, in 1937-38, FDR “was persuaded to balance the budget” and “cut spending and the economy went back down again.”

To be sure, you can credibly argue that the New Deal had its share of problems. But overall, the numbers prove it helped—rather than hurt—the macroeconomy. “Excepting 1937-1938, unemployment fell each year of Roosevelt’s first two terms [while] the U.S. economy grew at average annual growth rates of 9 percent to 10 percent,” writes University of California historian Eric Rauchway.

What happened here in 1937-8 is exactly what is happening in England today.

David Sirota: FDR Prolonged the Depression? Really? - Truthdig

miklkit: There's one huge difference. We didn't have a 16 TRILLION dollar deficit. And for that matter Obama got his trillion dollar spending spree and we're still over 10 percent in term of real unemployment. Funny how liberals (and that would include libeals on the Republican side as well) just never can seem to find the exact right moment to cut spending.

When times are good, no one complains about is and no one dares mention that now might be a good time because everyone is afraid that will slow down the economy. But of course liberals are never afraid to raise taxes, be it good times or bad. It's always time to raise taxes somewhere on someone in liberal land.

And of course, when things are bad, why we can't cut spending now, we have to keep spending to keep the economy going.

And this is exactly why we have to have a balanced budget amendment to the constitution: To force gutless politicians to do what they should be doing anyway with a 16 TRILLION dollar deficit. Balance the budget and cut spending.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever read a book about The Great Depression? If not, I would suggest "The Forgotten Man" by Amity Shlaes. It goes into great detail about how FDR prolonged the Great Depression and was not the hero left wing political mythology makes him out to be.

Oh, and he was also the only president to put legal American citizens into interment camps simply because of what they looked like. So much for the liberal "diversity" and "open minded" BS.

Mik, you constantly go around here and shout outsourcing jobs.

Taxpayer money used to bail out GM and Chrysler.

Obama, "This plant will be here another Hundred years" Mid 2009 production ceased completely at GM Janesville Plant, Plant closed. New Chevy Spark made at a GM plant in South Korea.

GM Delco, Delphi plants that hired nonunion workers to make GM parts closed. Parts now made in China and Mexico.

Obama, UAW told Rep.Ryan and Wis Gov Doyle that Chrysler Engine Plant in Kenosha would remain open! Plant closed, Engines now made in Mexico.

How many out of country jobs did that bail out create?

The US Debt right now today is at the same level it was in 2006. Who was in charge of the economy in 2006? Why did bush/cheney keep shipping cash to Iraq using forklifts to move pallets of cash into airplanes? Were they intentionally trying to wreck the economy?

The New Deal worked because it put Americans to work in America. More Americans working, more American buying. Reagan tried his version of the New Deal, but foolishly spent the money on the military/industrial complex. That caused the deficit to explode while also causing the government to grow larger.

What GMs new management team does is up to them. The fact is that without that bailout we would have no auto industry at all! No GM. No Ford. No Chrysler. This is because all of their parts suppliers would have gone under while the big boys were being broken up and sold off.

California is the 8th largest economy in the world and there are no car factories there. All cars have to be imported into California. Why? There is no industrial base here. There are no tire, electrical wire, steel, or plastics factories. Toyota tried to build cars here and gave up. No infrastructure.

Without that bailout of GM and Chrysler we would now be in a deeper depression than the Great Depression with 50% unemployment.

miklkit you are suggesting seriously US debt is still 7 trillion dollars?

CHINA will be VERY angry with YOU!

IT IS 16 TRILLION DOLLARS TODAY AND CLIMBING!!!!!!!

If Obama is re-elected it will be 23 trillion in just 4 short years and as a nation we will cease to exist!

Tax payers are a minority today, so no doubt this would be VERY democratic and popular. Why stop at $140k though? How about 500K for each non tax paying "citizen"?

I do agree though that we need to pay as we go. A bill to each and every American for their share of the national debt along with a collection agency and credit trashing would REALLY wake folks up to the reality of the situation we are in!

Hey! were the only one's w/skin in the game.

Elaborate please, do you want to cut all of the welfare programs, also?

You would have to discuss that, with Mr Obama.

Let's cut corporate welfare, starting with the military. Then move to Big Oil, which gets $70.2 Billion in taxpayer money every year.

I have paid into SS and Medicare all my life. That is not welfare.

miklkit, I do not know where you are getting your numbers on "Big Oil"! In the first debate, Mr. Obama said that "Big Oil" received approximately $3 Billion per year in so-called corporate welfare. And then the Green Energy companies received $90 Billion! Just one question: When was the last time you heard of a "Big Oil" company going bankrupt owing huge sums of money to the government? Answer: NEVER! How about "Green Energy", huh? (BTW, the majority of the "corporate welfare" received by oil companies was in increased depreciation on major oil equipment, which increased jobs in UNION companies who produced it!)

Here are some sources for those numbers you are taking out of context.

Transparency: How Much Does the United States Subsidize Energy - Environment - GOOD

Turn Off the Oil Subsidy Spigot

solar energy subsidies

A closer look at Obama’s “$90 billion for green jobs”

miklkit

Let's cut corporate welfare, starting with the military. Then move to Big Oil, which gets $70.2 Billion in taxpayer money every year.

As Al Gore would say, "Here are some inconvenient truths":

(1) The oil companies don't get any taxpayer money. They get to keep their own money due to tax incentives. (Also called "tax breaks." The difference is in who you are talking to, since "break" implies something bad, and "incentive" implies something good. The laws, as written, use the latter term.)

(2) Oil companies do not get $70 billion in incentives per year. In fact, the 2012 legislation to roll back these incentives estimated the net gain to the Treasury to be $40 billion over a decade, or about $4 billion per year.

(3) The incentives were originally put into place to keep jobs in America. The Republicans suggested amending the bill to include all companies who get the incentive, and not just target "Big Oil." That was a deal killer.

(4) The Democrat-controlled Senate voted to hold back the legislation on a 51-47 vote.

1) Why is Big Oil getting subsidies at all? Big Oil is the most profitable business on Earth!

2) That $70.2 Billion is for fossil fuels, which also includes dirty coal.

3) The way that China dumped solar panels in America and put Solyndra out of business show that green industry does need our help. Big Oil is the most profitable business on the planet and does not need our help.

4) The Senate was right to dump that republicon POS.

Dumb question !!!

Because the wealthy have enough money to cover their expenses. If they're smart, they live within their means. The poor receive govt assistance, which hasn't run out at this point.

A huge reason most of us aspire to be wealthy is so we don't have to worry about basic needs. Use your brain and resist the urge to whine over nothing.

SOCIAL SECURITY IS WELFARE

It pays out FAR more than was ever paid in and is unsustainable.

A result of decades of pandering to the AARP for votes.

If you currently collect SS and Medicare you ARE a welfare recipient like it or not you did not pay NEARLY enough!

When people DEMANDING services for 'free" outnumber those people PAYING for those services, you have a serious budget problem. That simple.

Where do you who want every thing for free think the money is coming from, the government does not work, it only takes from those who do work and how long do you think the working people will just except the fact that their hard earned dollars are going to those who do not work especially to those who just lay around and have babies. We need to add an amendment to the constitution and that will stop illegal babies from becoming citizens, this is where a ton of our dollars go, free medical, free schooling, free housing etc to Illegals that should be given if needed to Legal American Citizens who need help.

This story is about the UK, not American citizens?

Glad its not about america. UK has a huge percentage of their population living on one form of welfare or another. Their job seekers benefit "unemployment" is so high it does not pay to take a low paid job and there is not much of a limit on how long you can collect if you do the paperwork right.

27 red states take more money from Uncle Sam than they pay in taxes.

5 blue states take more from Uncle Sam than they pay in taxes.

It is us hard working, tax paying Democrats who are paying for you worthless red state welfare queens.

Red State Socialism | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

miklkit, these same "27 red states" also produced much more energy, food, and raw materials than they used. These states are low in population and require more infrastructure work to produce these items which the "blue states" need! This is not socialism it is capitalism in the largest definition! If the red states did not produce the energy, food, etc, the blue states would just cease to exist!

If they produce so much, why do they pay no taxes on those products?

Do you not know that California is the largest agricultural economy in America? We make more cheese than Wisconsin!

The USA is heading in the same direction as the UK.

The USA is heading in the same direction as the UK.

Yes we are. Probably worse. But no one can say they weren't warned. How do you expect a reasonable candidate to be elected when half or more of the population gets handouts? Also, it was done as part of a purposeful agenda. Go out and vote for Obama, he'll take care of you.

No way to get elected if you are not giving out government money.

Turns out democracy is a failed experiment!

This turns out to be the Achilles heel of democracy.

Basically it does not and cannot work unless the people as a group are for the whole not the self and that will happen when pigs fly!

Let us have your list that, you would cut, please.

How about starting with oil company subsidies and all other corporate welfare?!

That would be great Myrmicat, no more tax dollars to big oil! I am all for people who drive to pay more, $7 gas is on its way!!!

Easy Jerry...I am a single father...no child support or help from the Gov...I have not had TV in my house since 2001, We go to one movie a year that we both decide on, we eat out maybe once every 3 or 4 months, I have a 17 year old car that is paid for and still runs fine so see no need to replace it and only use one tank of gas a month ( about $48 a month average), Our family vacation consist of a week long hunting trip in the woods which if were lucky will also add food for the year to eat ( I do splurge here though and have to buy two tanks of gas that month ) but the whole vacation cost less than $300 and we have a lot of fun doing it. we do a lot of camping and other cheap things like this and actually stay fairly active with that and fishing and other outdoor activities. My son is on a swim team every year ($25 cost for 6 days a week for the whole summer ) and many other things like this. So as you can see you can cut cost...and still have fun.

Government answers to personal, home, community, state or national problems are ineffective from the onset. For this reason, "the fix" can not, will not, come from the fed.gov; they will only continue to spend US into oblivion. They will only continue to spend US into oblivion. They will only continue to spend US into oblivion. Did you get that?

As a general rule, Governments are a feeble but a necessary evil. That is why a limited government was established in the USA. Since FDR, a Democrook, the government has been spiraling big and out of control. However, the Republicons have not done their job when in power by actively undoing the junk established by previous regimes; they bought into FDR's socialist government expansion and got on board with it. In short, both major parties are collectively and individually responsible for the mess at hand. But neither of these socialist mafias could have succeeded at bankrupting the nation if the PEOPLE weren't lazy asps. So all of you need a serious time out ... like 40 years in federal prison to think about what you haven't done.

Since seventh grade, warnings to fear the fed.gov and to lookout for fraudulent politicians (e.g., Trickie Dickie Nixon three time felon pardoned by Gerald The Klutz Ford) have fallen on deaf ears. Now the signs and results are everywhere and still the reality of the our dire straights eludes most. Anyone with a 7th grade education can see the cause, the problems and the cure. Let me spell it our for you: Charlatan politicians elected to public office pretending to represent the interests of the people in government, a.k.a., Democrooks and Republicons. Better to elect your neighbor than these malversationists.

Democrooks and Republicons advance and support only their own well-being and their cronies' interests; the concept of "servant of the people" never crosses their minds. In short, they, their words, their motives and their work are a fraud on the people. Having said their name, everything else they spew is a lie, half truth or misstatement. Why do you fall for their political dung every two years?

Part of the saving of the nation is never electing another Democrook or Republicon to any office. They are a national disgrace. (Careful they don't masquerade as another party member.) They are the designers and builders of our current precarious situation; they devised it and instituted it. Show them your wrath at the ballot box; your neighbor could run a better country. Write-in the best people you know for every office where a brokendown ass© or a truncated mouse© is running.

A vote for anyone other than a Democrook or Republicon is a vote for America; voting for them is a vote for Amerika.©2012 Blue N Gold™

myrmicat - How about stopping govt loans to green energy companies that continually go bankrupt under Obama? At least Big Oil is still in business hiring American workers. Those "green" companies are getting wiped out by the Chinese.

myrmicat - How about Obama stop giving waivers and to unions and companies in Nancy Pelosi's voting districts to pay for Obamacare?

As much as you've bought into Repulican greed, your guy is just as guilty.

disabled voter--OR Beer or Cigarattes, or lottery tickets.

Bain Capital has a 20% failure rate. Right now today they are shipping a whole factory to China!

Obama's stimulus plan has a 1% failure rate. And Solyndra was put out of business by the Chinese government by dumping. That is why Chinese solar panels are now subject to a 25-36% tariff surcharge. That Solyndra factory is still there and only needs someone to fire it up and start producing again.

Romney Ignores Bainport While Trying to Take Back 47% Comments

U.S. Will Place Tariffs on Chinese Solar Panels - NYTimes.com

miklkit, Obama's stimulus plan has a 1% failure rate? Ha, ha, ha, haaaaahaaaa, OH MY GOD my side hurts! It is impossible to track where most of the money went! BTW, $10 Billion of this money ended up being funneled through GM into a Chinese auto plant which is creating 12,000 new CHINESE jobs! Solyndra and that company that produced batteries for the Volt, etc. I guess being an insane liberal means never having to say, WHOOPS!

dslodge, been there, done that! I have pulled myself from bankruptcy (because of divorce) and have managed to recreate my life! Don't give up and continue to work hard! I have faith in people in this country like you who refuse to spend their lives sucking on the government tit! If you ever need a reference to find a job, just pull your post and put it on your resume!

Ayup! if you add up the costs of the failures they add up to just under 1% of the total set aside for them.

And Bain Capital might be coming for your job next.

For the uneducated: Oil companies don't receive govt money- hence the LIE about subsidies. They get tax breaks, which means they get to KEEP THE MONEY THEY MADE.

Govt had nothing to do with it. Get educated.

Disabled Voter,

Poor decision making is what puts many people lives in dire straits. That or failure to make any decision and allowing others to do it for you. The end result is government control through handouts.

dslodge,

Congratulations. More people with your priorities would make this country much more stable.

What a load of crap.. Companies continue to move over seas to lower the cost of their products so cheap skates like yourself who scream, bitch and moan for lower prices will get them at Walmart...

It happened when American companies started taking manufacturing overseas in order to make a larger profit off the backs of the poor.

And they will bring manufacturing back once the unions are completely dismantled, wages are depressed, people end up living in company dorms and towns, shopping on credit at the company stores and can foul the environment at will. For big business, that was the golden age and they have always missed it. Anyone who thinks business will pay a living wage, provide benefits, operate cleanly or even honestly if not forced to by government isn't paying attention. Business has no morals and no values aside from those they must endure to make money. Community causes businesses support are for PR purposes, not because they are worried about the community. They will even say out loud that that is the purpose, to generate goodwill with consumers without understanding the part that is missing is the part about being good neighbors. Those are all the reasons manufacturing has moved to China and other countries in Asia and eastern Europe. Africa is next.

Conservatives like to point out financial laws and regulations passed by congress as contributing to the financial meltdown. Well, most of these laws and regulations (or deregulations) were thought up and paid for by the financial industry.

I never used to feel this cynical about big business. The last decade has certainly changed my view for the worse. Having reaped the benefits of the early tax cuts (which incidentally the country in general was not clamoring for when Bush/Cheney took office) and the profits to be made in war, they expect the poor and middle class to shoulder all the pain of re-balancing the economy. I'm not saying the poor and middle class don't have their part to play and everyone will end up sacrificing something for awhile, but that means everyone and those who got the most benefit should sacrifice the most. If "job creators" were going to create jobs they would have done it in the last decade. They didn't.

They were allowed to deindustrialize America by Nafta Cafta Crapta they manufacture abroad comes back duty free. Bill Clinton signed Nafta. They said it would bring prosperity to the USA? It made money for the rich and investors and foreign governments.

The jobs went overseas because we Americans wanted everything cheap. We can not have it both ways, make high wages and have cheap cost for products we want to buy. I work a part time job because my SS is not enough and have to pay 25% of what I make to taxes because that is the way our congress mostly Dems who are the lawyers made the rules. If we want things fixed we need to demand starting at the state level that ALL CONGRESSMEN/WOMEN can only serve 2 terms and they must be put into the SS system, no more pay after they leave office, no more separate health care system, they will be put in odumbocare like the rest of us sheep. Why is it they and the president are exempt along with unions and large business from odumbocare??? and we the middle class and poor will be the ones picking up the tab.

No Anita it happened when the non producers in our economy and Europes got 75 years of expecting something for nothing. Peeps on welfare for 4 generations government telling them here is more and more, and telling you the taxpayer you not doing your part you need to pay more taxes. And all the lack of public service workers lead by the vile and corrupt teachers. Expecting the taxpayer what ever the econmoic conditions are to keep paying them more and more, until the system finally collapes. Look what they did in Chicago and Wisconsin.

Belinda, we keep hearing that particular canard

Please tell us, exactly how manufacturing made more money off of the backs of the poor, be specific, please.

Yevrah, you're blaming Democrats for raising taxes on working class individuals?

Fox news must of brainwashed you pretty good.

Steel production moved to Japan because they updated thier production methods and made them more automated. This was prevented from being done in the US by steel workers unions. They got to keep thier high paying jobs until the companies they worked for started to go bankrupt because they had to much ineffient labor cost. It wasn't cheaper labor Japans labor cost were has as high or higher than ours it was the cost of the excess number of ineffient laborers. The Same thing happened with plywood and processed fish. In the auto busines the unions faught automation to protect the jobs of union members. the auto industry only broke the unproductive cycle after going bankrurpt and forced restructering by a government bailout. Lower wages, fewer jobs and more automation competive in a world market.

Belinda--sorry, but I don't WANT to be the "breadbasket" of the world. I live in Missouri, where corn/wheat are king, and 40 years ago, our scientists were warning that in over farming our land, we were losing about an inch of top soil EVERY decade, and that we were also depleting the Ogalala Aquefer (which underlies most of the midwest farm states and it what all WELLS tap for water) too fast for it to ever recover.

We are also poisoning all our groundwater with fertilizer, and sending more of it down stream (Including the Mississippi River) to where it flows into the Gulf of Mexico, and the result is a DEAD zone around New Orleans where NOTHING can live.

And when OUR dirt and water is gone, and our seafood off shore all poisoned, WHO do you think is going to 'rise up' and strip THEIR land/resources to feed US? Much less do so basically for FREE like we have done for decades?

And by the way, add to that the 'bonus' of us feeding the world, thus enabling them to do NOTHING to control the burgeoning population of the poverty stricken, which is already burdening the Earth.

As for all the baddies 'outsourcing' jobs, EQUAL blame for that lies with the labor unions. My dad worked for YEARS for a factory that made Levi's, and he did a study in the 50's to see how many hours of work it took their workers to BUY a parir of their pants, and it was "x" amount of hours. Twenty years later, and many pay raises/benefits bumps later, it STILL took the worker "x'' number of hours to buy that same pair of pants, because when the cost of LABOR goes up, SO does the cost of the product.

And while that might seem harmless, EVENTUALLY, the pants get so expensive that no one wants to PAY for them.

And that is how Levi Strauss got out of the biz of making pants. They still made the best jeans around, quality/material wise, but no one wants to spend $60 bucks for jeans.

In my town alone, that cost us 590 jobs. And workers for YEARS came up to my dad, told him how much they MISSED that job, and that if they had KNOWN the cost of all those 'raises', they might not have taken them.

This is by design seeing your a great conservative watch Joel Scousen on you tube tea party deception he chaired conservative commitee under Ron Reagan.

The last 30 years hasn't taught people anything!

Almost every credible economist has concluded that "supply side" economics is a failure.

Supply side economics is nothing more than the "horse and sparrow" theory of the 1800's that compares monetary systems like horse manure that passes through a horse to eventually feed the sparrow.

The past 30 years has demonstrated who has been crapped on, and the horse has been over fed.

I remember Ross Perot referring the "Trickle Down"as "Voodoo Economics," and America is now wishing they had listened to his advice.

Ask Romney how "Trickle Down" has benefited America, because his amassed wealth is sitting in foreign accounts sheltered from U.S. tax and will never trickle down into our economy.

Extrapolate this thousands of time over with the understanding that most wealthy people are doing the same, and one can see the problem.

Why do people continue to ignore the facts?

College professors try to teach our citizenry, but when people refuse to accept the facts the truth suffers along with the world.

Disabled Voter:

College professors try to teach our citizenry... what Socialism. Right, because that's working out so well all over the world. Capitalism and American freedom to pursue success and riches have built the greatest standard of living the world has ever seen. Its help fuel the creation of medicine and food production so many millions all over the world can live healthy lives. So you would recommend what, we increase taxes and borrow more money to fuel what, a social system where incentives are removed, success is punished. Amazes me the crap people believe, want socialism move to one of their countries and let us know how it works out. Let me know how long it will take for you to see a doctor or schedule an operation. Liberals are funny.

What sort of logic allows some to believe that the "producers" will just continue to work and produce, when a larger portion of their income is taken from them every year, for the benefit of some one else.

One of two things will always happen.

1. The producer upon realizing, the he can have it with out exerting himself and joins the others, being cared of.

2. The "producer" leaves and goes where he can keep his earnings.

This is what is happening to all of the European nanny states and where the USA will be in about 7-8 years upon continuing in ourpresent direction.

Believe me the producer is keeping all his earnings at 99 cents an hour in China. It is called greed. He is not making those earnings the working man is making them. If you have to keep all your earning then you soon pay the price and the price is what is happening in America today. Pretty soon they won't have anyone to buy those those cheap made products that cost an arm and leg. The people in China cannot buy them because they only make 99 cents an hour. The American people won't be able to buy them because they don't have job's they all went to China. So you what goes around soon comes around and the greedy rich will soon pay the price because we have all learned that it does not trickle down.

27 red states are taking more tax money than they pay in taxes.

5 Blue states are taking more than they pay.

4 red states pay more than they take.

14 blue states pay more taxes than they get back.

It is us hard working, tax paying Democrats who are supporting you worthless welfare Queen republicons.

Romney's Bain Capital has shut down a non-Union factory in Illinois and is shipping it to China. You can bet that those workers are now Democrats.

Romney Ignores Bainport While Trying to Take Back 47% Comments

If a producer is staying in business and in the country for the sole reason of their own benefit, then it would be preferable that they leave. Capital belongs to the American worker. They are the ones that sowed the fields, dug ore out of the ground, and built and worked in the factories.

The investment banker epitomizes the American citizen who produces nothing. This strain of insult to the working class has gone on far too long.

Stop letting banks control the creation of currency and lend directly to the small (the real small) business owner. Remove the reigns of the economy from the rich and you will find that the American worker is more than happy to produce goods for a decent wage and maybe some healthcare and retirement security for their families.

Capital belongs to the person who PAID for it. This is not a communist country. We have this thing called private property.

Until workers start putting up their own cash toward the computers on their desks or the machines at their station, we have no say. Our labor is compensated by wages and benefits so don't even talk about workers investing. They get paid a salary for their work. If they want a piece of the company buy stock.

Based on Hornickel's account, it is the worker who is greedy. Going after something you didn't build and didn't pay for. It's tantamount to theft.

Socialists, marxist and progressives are thieves masquerading as ideologues.

Until workers start putting up their own cash toward the computers on their desks or the machines at their station, we have no say.

Capital is created by loans, not purchasing more capital. I'm not sure how much you understand about the banking system; but, essentially, banks lend at the leisure of the federal government. They are allowed to create capital by loaning out money in excess of their deposits-about $9 for every $1 in deposits.

The issue with your statement that I quoted is that the average worker doesn't have much material wealth. Certainly not enough to buy a stake in a company equal to their part of labor. That is why there are collective organizations like unions, so that their say in their treatment is equal to their labor.

It sort of saddens me that people think they don't deserve to speak up about their own livelihoods. No American citizen should beholden to another, whether by virtue of legal ownership (slavery) or economic necessity.

There's nothing socialist or communist about speaking up for the rights of laborers. It isn't greedy to want a better life or a better workplace. It certainly isn't greedy to demand that the wealth of this country be fairly distributed among the classes according to their labor. Wealth is not deserved by virtue of having wealth, there must be some component of obligation towards those without and towards those laborers which build material wealth.

Fred you and I are on the same page, one more thing better start buying gold and silver. Cause with barry and benny and the ink jet printing more and more worthless Federal Reserve notes, well you know what is about to happen. Also I go back to the 60s and the riots in the inner cities bad real bad, and now the peeps are more violent and armed to the teeth.

Read Hyman Minsky - as the flush times progress, investment becomes more heavily leveraged - not just the US, it's human nature. Read a History of US banking - constant depreciation to pay off debt with cheaper dollars. Even Minsky does not predict what will happen when government continues to prop up investment. I'm thinking default in about a decade with new dollars paying 10% on old dollars, maybe 20% on old dollars if you keep the dollars in your 401-k for 5 years.

You had better buy a plow!

How will silver and gold feed you?

All the fear mongering does is allow the manipulators a platform for control.

Fear mongering????

How does one decide that you can just continue to lose your producers and the rich and nothing bad will happen?

You can have all the silver and gold that you can afford, just hope that you can protect it. How will that be any different than what we have going on right now?

Uh....I believe that was 400 million .40 cal rounds. A pistol ammunition. with an open ended clause that they may buy many more. Homeland security....uh huh, suuure. Wonder where they got the money to buy all those rounds?.....Just print more.

There is nothing left were broke and can't backup our debt. I think the Fed is doing tricks to delay poop hitting the fan till after the election.

Paying 20% tax on monies up to $55,000, 40% tax from $55,000-2,400,000, and 50% tax on income over 2.4 million doesn't sound like people are screaming about freebies!

How about fiscal responsibility?

Felton Suthon

Culheath - my reading of Minsky says you have a point, but even Minsky called for balanced budgets during better times, which are being avoided because freebies are sliding up the socioeconomic ladder.

Precisely. You pay down the debt during the good times, not when you have no money available to do so.

Well then we will hire a million new police and build a thousand new prisons...more lawyers....more cemetaries....Prosperity for the Working Man! Problem solved ! (Romneys five point plan) lol

What voters would that be?

Last year 47% of all tax filers paid no individual income taxes? Can you be a little more specific?

Income taxes are 42% of the federal government's income. That is what the rich pay.

Payroll taxes are 40% of the federal government's income. That is what us working people pay. And we only have 2.5% of the wealth.

Business taxes are 9% of the total.

Also, our income has been going down for 30 years while the likes of Romney have seen their go up and up and up.

What are the federal government's sources of revenue?

inequality-p25_averagehouseholdincom.png (PNG Image, 631x346 pixels)

Payroll Taxes are used to fund Medicare and Social Security so you do get those back so technically not actually paying for your later benefits.

In my mind your question should be can communism work better than capitalism? And you are correct. once you give something you can't take it back. The company that I worked for was reluctant to give raises during the good times because the workers would throw a fit if the company was forced to take back the raise in bad times. In communism everyone is supposed to be provided for, no matter what your contribution is to that society. But as we have seen communism can only work in a truly honest society, and a selfless society. Something akin to the pilgrims. I believe capitalism is the only answer because you get out of the society whatever you put in.

Now if you mean democracy as a society without class distinction or majority rule or ruled by the people, unfortunately, human nature just does not allow that. We are not the melting pot that we have descibed ourselves. We have several different languages, hundreds of different cultures, hundreds of different ideologies and very little that is common to the "citizens of the United States". In other words we are still looking for who we are and what we should believe.

Bewildered- Checkout what nearly happened to the Pilgrams when they went down the "communism" route. They nearly died of starvation that's what happened. As soon as they caught wind of you get to eat everyday no matter how hard you work then all of them slowly started working the minimum need to. It only takes one slacker to drag the rest down to his level.

And to your "melting pot". We once were a melting pot, but now we have peoples coming into our country that wanted to "escape" from something to come to America, but they want to totally cling to there old culture. Some of my descendents were here before the first Europeans arrived and others were the first Europeans to arrive and then some others came later. They all learned to speak English because it was important to be a cohesive unit as a society. That is part of what is so jacked-up in the USA now. We have all these groups that want to be identified by something other than "American". As the old saying goes "you can either hang together or hang alone". You know the divided house thing.

The only good part of India that I can think of is that the British taught them all to speak English. It was a bunch of groups speaking different languages, and they still do until it comes to governing. Then the speak English so they can all communicate. Call the Miami City Hall and see if you can get someong on the phone that can speak English. My guess is it's the same now as it was 15 years ago and you won't.

We need to stop letting the politicians split us apart and stand together and STOP the fraud that is being played on us all before it's really to late.

Justa Pilot--AMEN.The REAL Irony is that there is a VERY good reason to learn English--English, as a language, has over 35K words. The next most is French, which has about a third that many, and as a result USED to be the language of Business.

I have a son who lives in CHINA and went there to teach Chinese kids AMERICAN English. I Have lived in Nicaragua, and in Mexico in the distant past, and anyone who could AFFORD to sent their kids stateside to school so they could learn ENGLISH. Go to Europe--read the article this weekend about the heir to the Duchy of Luxembourg getting married? he speaks Luxembourgoise (but almost no one can still WRITE it) and French (on one border) and German (on another border) but he ALSO speaks English. And in his country, the kids in GRADE school are taught in French, but in HS they switch to being taught in German.

But the study ENGLISH all the way through. It is, like it or not, the LANGUAGE of business, and MONEY, around the world.

Isn't it amazing that only the people who have very little to begin with or nothing at all to get by on, are always the ones that have to sacrifice for the economy?

Why is it that those who are living large and have so much that they would never miss some financial give back, are never required to absorb any cuts to their largess for the sake of the economy at large.

In the US, the so-called patriotic "job creators" are too busy decimating the American workforce by moving all manufacturing jobs out from under American workers to low wage countries, persistently laying off Middle Class workers as they hire imported lower wage foreign workers to replace them, thus adding 10's of thousands of workers to the unemployment line month in and month out. They claim they are adding jobs by generously hiring some lucky few of them back into a newly expanding and mostly service-oriented job market at minimum wage while allowing the cost of everything those low wage earners need to survive on to continually go up - and after doing all they can to eliminate the spending power of consumers, they keep crying that they have to move those jobs to others countries so they can make a profit because - for some unexplainable reason, no one is spending what little money they have left and buying enough to keep them in vacation homes or business.

It looks to me that as far as the lie that government is determined to "take from the rich until they have nothing" goes, the rich will always buy enough politicians and legisleation that they will be guaranteed every gluttonous desire they can conceive of - but apparently, finding more and more ways of eliminating income from the working class and the powerless until THEY have nothing at all is what truly moves the power brokers now days!