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Subscribe to RSSWith the Greek unemployment rate at 25 percent, anti-foreigner sentiment is growing. NBC News' Andy Eckardt meets politician Ilias Panagiotaros of the far-right Golden Dawn party and Ali Rahimi, an Afghan national who was attacked by a mob and told to leave Greece.
ATHENS, Greece -- Ali Rahimi was enjoying a warm Greek evening, chatting away with two friends, when a mob of 15 people approached and asked where they were from.
"I told them that I am from Afghanistan and they said that it is time for me to go back to my country," the 28-year-old asylum-seeker told NBC News.
Rahimi attempted to run away but was cornered, beaten, hit over the head with a bottle and stabbed in the chest and back by three assailants in the entryway of his Athens apartment building.
"When police arrived they called an ambulance, but then told me that they could not help me any further and left," Rahimi recalled, explaining how he only realized how serious his injuries were after spotting blood running out from under his T-shirt during the brutal attack on Sept. 17, 2011.
Rahimi's case does not appear to be unique. As the euro zone debt crisis leaves Greece grappling with a 25 percent overall unemployment rate, activists say they have noted an increase in the number of hate crimes reported.
'It is virtually impossible to find a job': Brain drain is new Greek tragedy
Far-right populism has also found fertile ground in the near-bankrupt country, where the economy is forecast to contract by 7 percent this year and every second youth is out of work.
Nazi-style salutes
The Golden Dawn party – no more than an extremist fringe group when it was established in the late 1980s and which has been branded "neo-Nazi" by its opponents – has been gaining support amid the country's deteriorating economic situation.
Citing a poll by VPRC which appeared in the "Ellada Avrio" newspaper on Friday, Reuters reported:
Backing for the ultra-nationalist Golden Dawn, which has been linked to a rise in attacks against migrants in recent months, stood at 14 percent, double their take in June elections that gave the party a foothold in parliament. That would make the group the country's third largest party.
The party's rabidly anti-immigrant message has stuck a chord with many voters as EU/IMF imposed austerity propels unemployment levels to a record 25 percent.
Golden Dawn denies it is neo-Nazi but bears a Swastika-like emblem and its supporters have been seen giving Nazi-style salutes. The party's leader, Nikolaos Mihaloliakos, has denied the Holocaust occurred while one lawmaker, Eleni Zaroulia, called immigrants "sub-humans" in parliament on Thursday.
Reuters added that the opinion poll showed that "Greeks' frustration with their political leaders has grown as the coalition prepares to push through the new round of austerity measures to appease [foreign] lenders and secure more bailout aid and keep the country afloat."
Alkis Konstantinidis / EPA, file
Migrants are held during a police ID-check operation in Athens, Greece, on August 6.
Over the past decade, Greece has become the major gateway into the European Union for illegal immigrants and asylum-seekers from Asia and Africa.
'Growing despair'
Experts estimate that between 800,000 and 1 million undocumented migrants now live in Greece, a country with a population of nearly 11 million.
"The rapid increase of illegal immigration in the past years, growing despair over the ailing economy and a loss of trust in our political leadership have fueled public anger and given way to dangerous populism in the country," says Loukas Tsoukalis, head of Greek think-tank Eliamep.
Riot police use tear gas and stun grenades in response to fire bombs and bottles thrown by protesters during a demonstration against austerity cuts in Greece. NBCNews.com's Dara Brown reports.
Campaigning on a message of ultra-nationalism and fierce anti-immigrant policies, Golden Dawn won 18 seats in parliament during June's national election.
"We have to protect 10 million Greeks that are suffering from the very bad economy and from the killings, rapes, shootings and everything else that all illegal immigrants are doing to this country," Ilias Panagotiaros, a Golden Dawn politician and a member of Greek parliament, told NBC News.
Andy Eckardt / NBC News
Ilias Panagiotaros of Greece's far-right Golden Dawn Party.
A poll last month found that the popularity of Nikos Mihalolioakos, head of the Golden Dawn party, has climbed to 22 percent, up 8 points from May.
However, it is not just a harsh political message that has been drawing support for Golden Dawn.
In an attempt to build an image of social responsibility, followers of the movement have taken up the roles of what some Greeks call "a crumbling public support system."
'For Greeks only'
Last month, members of Golden Dawn set up booths in a central Athens square to distribute groceries and collect blood donations. "For Greeks only" was the message, after visitors were asked to provide identification of Greek citizenship.
"Golden Dawn has been taking advantage of the growing despair, presents itself as a protector of the weak and vulnerable," analyst Tsoukalis says. "In dangerous neighborhoods they have offered to escort old ladies to the grocery store around the corner."
Rising political and socio-economic discontent, nurtured by a surge of crime rates in major Greek cities, have also led to widespread public acceptance that followers of Golden Dawn sometimes substitute for police and other government officials.
While Greece gears up for more protests against austerity cuts, the health care system is in tatters with little cash for drugs or doctors. ITV's James Mates reports.
A video shot in early September shows members of Golden Dawn checking work permits at a local market in Rafina, where migrant vendors sell their goods. Minutes later, several people with black Golden Dawn T-shirts and Greek flags moved in and destroyed the stands.
"We are going to defend our country, our history, our religion, our culture," Golden Dawn's Panagiotaros adds. He is also one of the founders of a ultra-nationalistic football fan club called Galazia Stratia, or Blue Army, that has vowed to "defend Greek national pride inside the stadiums".
Spain's economic crisis turns middle-class families into illegal squatters
"Things are getting worse and worse in Greece. There is no future for the next few years there," says Christos Christoglou, a Greek inspection engineer, who moved to Germany to find work.
In September, José Manuel Barroso, the president of the European Commission, included a stark warning in his annual 'state of the union' address, saying that the euro crisis was contributing to the rise in extremism.
And in recent months, officials in Athens have vowed to set up a special police force to combat violence against migrants and plan to impose tougher penalties for these type of crimes.
"Something must happen quick," says Judith Sunderland from Human Rights Watch, who is author of a report called "Hate on the Streets: Xenophobic violence in Greece."
“Xenophobic hate crimes have reached an alarming proportion in Greece," she added. "Victims are often actively discouraged from filing complaints, told by police officers that it is not worth their while or that they should fight back themselves. And many migrants fear that they could be locked up themselves because of their legal status."
'The country is on its knees': Ireland grapples with economic collapse
Meanwhile, Rahimi is still waiting for justice in the wake of his attack. The trial has been postponed seven times already in the past year.
"And it remains unclear, whether the prosecutor will argue that the attack had been motivated by racist or xenophobic sentiment," Sunderland told NBC News.
In debt or jobless, many Italians choose suicide
One of the three accused is Themis Skordeli, a female member of Golden Dawn, who failed to get elected to parliament last May.
According to local media reports, Skordeli has been identified as a member of a so called 'anti-migrant patrol group', which was formed to 'work the streets' of poorer Athens' neighborhoods.
Rahimi, who came to Greece in 2005, says that he now rarely leaves his apartment and has become extremely cautious when going out to visit friends.
"I am afraid to live here," he says. "I will wait until the trial is over and then definitely head to another country."
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Leave a Comment:
Hate crime? More like angry and desperate citizens who are tired of their government not addressing issues that are hurting it's own people.
And at the same time Greeks are telling foreigners to get out....the jobs are for Greeks only....P.Obama is granting 800,000 "foreigners" Work Permits here in the U.S.in his illegal Executive Order Dream Act Proclamation.....
It's like he wants Americans to become more desperate and dependent on Government...Oh yeah, He Does.....come and get your FoodStamp EBT Card....Barry-O will take care of you....
The corrupt Greek politicians, like their corrupt counterpart in the USA, have failed to curb the flow of illegal aliens into Greece. Busy fleecing the taxpayers as well as dipping into the treasury, the Greek policians have copied the American politicians perfectly. Like America, Greece is insolvent, too. Both nations are suffering exceptionally high unemployment in the depth of the Great Recession after socialism recked the domestic economy. The only difference is America's having a fiat money printing press.
When the government fails to protect its citizens, vigilantism rises to take its place. Unable to repay its debt to foreigners, America will impose austerity measure like those in Greece. But the result will be very different as head-strong Americans are not tolerant of deprivation. It won't be long before Americans follow the footsteps of the Greeks, but with a dose of Americana styled extra kick: The Americans are armed to the teeth.
One need look no further than to the Banking Cartel!
Bankers are buying Greece for pennies on the dollar.
Isn't it convenient to reap the benefits from a crisis you created?
World War III is coming, and it looks like it won't be between nations, but against GREED!
Disabled Voter, Do you think with that brain? Just curious. Those are some pretty far out comments.
Can someone explain to me why the ONLY country to put it's bankers in prison has positive job growth and didn't have ANY austerity measures AND is one of the most "Socialist" countries on the planet, doing better than the rest of us?
As it is right here in the good old U.S. of A.
And if Mitt wins you ain't seen nothing yet!
Like I really value you biased and prejudiced opinion.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink!
Anyone? Did I catch your totally hyperbolic Ad Hominem argument correctly? Anyone?
You did have one thing right. " I don't think..." Those are your words, not mine!
Wow! Our country is worse off than the experts have reported.
So the Greeks didn't know their bank balances - spent more than they had - and now it's immigrants' fault? What kind of crybabies are they?
And of course this is hate crime to stop somebody - ask them where they are from - and then based on the answer - beat them. You have a serious condition called "racism" if you think otherwise.
Attention Posters:
FrequencyHopper has just demonstrated how he will stoop to editing his posts in order to make himself look like his fearless leader Romney.
Can you say Flip Flop?
Do you people have any sense of morality?
Keep up the good work, because other people need to see your dishonesty!
People do notice when you have no credible rebuttal of the arguments made.
I noticed you have no legitamate answer for the NWO and the Banking Cartel.
Are you being paid to defend them FrequencyHopper?
WOW! No wonder you call yourself FrequencyHopper, because you Flip Flop and Hop with your comments!
Disabled Voter: Sorry, I thought the timer allowed me to edit it before it posted. You win.
Lets hope that housing takes off again so that we can get our illegal immigrants more work!
@FrequencyHopper
My father warned me not to get into an argument with an unarmed man!
Haaaaaaaaaa, Are you now playing yourself to be a victim of the timer?
Would that be an Old Timer?
Different names...same story. In 1930's Germany it was the Jews, never mind the war and it's consequences. The world should have known they couldn't live on credit like America...that Ponzi scheme will support just so many clients. Here's us, on the way to the third world. Obama wants to ease us in slowly, and Mitt wants to throw us into the deep end...either way, we are going in...get ready.
The skilled guy leaves Greece for Germany. The unskilled guys stay, beat up foreigners who take their jobs. While many more Greeks have been sitting on the couch collecting gubmint benefits for 20 years til they broke the bank. Officials all over Greece have been increasing social programs and corruption to feed the socialism beast. All this is the result. Population of no real education, no work ethic, totally attracted to corruption, patronage jobs and social welfare. And real quick to blame somebody else when their own bad habits bring it all down. Sound familiar ! Look around your own town !
Does any of this matter? I gots me an O'bama phone!!
A phone call won't do" you can't trade something if it isn't yours"
No lack of hate in this country.
Rustyboy-FL
NBC will be pleased to know that you got the point of this article. White Republicans are evil!
ADisabled Voter: Bankers di not cause the crisis in which Greece is ensconced, Greek governments created this crisis. Greek politics is inept, corrupt, fically irresponsible and have been long before this crisis. Over the past onehundred years Greece has gone bankrupt fives times, repaid only about half of their loan debt and spent what they had on pork belly projects, new homes and cars for politicians and inarticulate public works aimed at promoting a facade of prosperity and progress..
Having lived for twenty years in Thessaloniki, I can site no better example of waste than the new municipal builing in the center of the city. Directly across the street is situated a public high school slapped together in 1978 after an earthquake, it was to be a "temporary fix". In September, May and June, it is unbearaby hot, during the winter students wear coats ang gloves. This single view epitomizes all that is wrong in that country; politicians taking care of themselves while neglecting the popuace.
I'm pretty sure beating the crap out of a guy and stabbing him simply because he ISN'T Greek is pretty much the definition of a hate crime, pj. Irrespective of what state your economy or own household are in, it gives no one the right to go out and try to kill someone just for being different.
Are you going out a-nights and committing felonies on immigrants too? Bunch of animals, you far-right reactionaries are. Animals.
Actually its a Reagan phone and the only thing the government has to do with it is validate the users of it as for their income. You see the phone companies pay for those phones and on their web site they freely state that the government does not have anything to do with them. Short sited p[eople who use blogs for their information post that obama crap until it makes sense to the mentaly challenged.
On the Greek thing. They got burned by buying wall streets tainted credit default swaps. We should get the hell out of this new world order crap but big business which runs our country says no so we will still be on the roller coaster when it crashes.
This was implemented in the reagan years.
Kornfed,
Don't like to confuse myth with FACTS, do you? The "obama phone" program was started in the 1980s during the Reagan era by the FCC; updated in the mid 1990s and the TracPhones were added in 2008 under Bush.
Do your research
Mike in Delray, I am no supporter of Obama and no friend of illegals. However, most of these Dream Act students have grown up here. We have already educated most though high school. We already provided medical care to them. At this point there is already a massive investment in each one of them. We need them to start contributing back into our society (though taxes) in order to recoup cost. Their illegal parents should be thrown out and bared re-entry for committing an illegal act.
JKLD
Are you trying to tell me O'bama is taking credit for something he didnt even do??? I am shocked and appalled!
Mitt the Twitt Romney should be made to go back to Mexico. His father and grandfather were born there. Mitt the Twitt should either be deported to Mexico or France. Mitt ran off to France to avoid the draft so he is a draft-dodger. He is also a flip flopper. Even the Mormons are supporting Obama. The Salt Lake Tribune endorsed Obama. They called Romney a flip-flopping shape shifter. Mitt the Twitt was also one-term governor because he was lousy. He outsourced jobs and wanted the auto industry to go into bankruptcy. Obama saved the auto industry and it is now flourishing. Romney will end planned parenthood and destroy the Social Security Administration that helped to support his running mate, Ryan, when his father died,
At least America knows what they are getting with Obama and they will not have to go to another war with an army they cannot identify. Good that Obama is pulling all of the American troops out of Afghanistan. Leave it up to Romney and the Republicans and we will soon be in another war with Syria and Iran. Thousands more American lives will be lost.
MITT THE TWITT IS THE ANTI-CHRIST!
Roger - insiteful post. Most people like to blame the banks because it is popular to do so. They normally lack the knowledge to complete an equation so they grab some good buzzwords.
@Roger: Who owns the government?
There is a lot of eye opening information out there for people who are willing to learn.
When any government demonstrates that it can be bought and controlled through bribery, then those governments have shown they are no longer "of and by the people."
That's exactly why "Citizens United" is perhaps one of the most dangerous Supreme Court rulings in our nations history.
Greed has no friend, but itself!
Gaintego - I don't understand why you have a Gaintego when you seems to be pretty stupid if you believe phone companies give the poor those phones for free. If you also look at your phone bill you will see you pay a tax that covers the phone companies cost for giving away those free telephones. Again the middle class get screwed by taking care of uneducated Obama voters like the woman from Cleveland
Right, let us send all back from here too, all who came since 1492.
Then there will only be a few left other than Indians.--and that would be my wife and I, she is the 28 th generation of Eric the Red--no kidding, and the 28 Th generation of Harold Bluetooth in York UK same time period--so start packing---!!!!
Be carefull what you wish for, most people here have no idea, what it would mean to start cutting, like Mitt Romney for his grandparent reason etc etc----how about Obama? or Donald Trump? or George Bush?
But most of us here now, are only here about 100 years--so once again, be careful what you really wish for!
@Kornfed,
That was not my point. There is plenty to go around in any group.
@Roger, I don't think RustyBoy was talking about Greece. He was referring to the country from which most of these posts originated from.
How about we get back on topic? What you are seeing here is the polarization of a country and the swing of a pendelum. The Greeks were doing well once and then the politicians swung left- promising crazy state pensions, vacations, and programs that they couldn't deliver/maintain. Over time they sank themselves in unmanagable debt and the destabolization of their currency and were forced to upend their government through essentially bankruptcy. Thus their system is crashing and there is a dramatic swing to the right (reactionary). This is why you are seeing Greeks striking out against each other and immigrants- they are growing in despiration (money is going bad, jobs aren't around, credit is bad, government is wilting and not supplying them with what they were used to/expecting. SO the average people in Greece are trying to figure out what to do and they look around and see the wealthy pulling their money out, there are immigrants taking some of the few jobs, and essentially looking for anyone to blame for their problems (except for themselves- think Germany Weimar Republic and afterwards when nazism rose). So you are seeing a society unraveling and heading towards a very unstable condition.
Ask yourself this- If we don't stop our current overspending trajectory here in the US and attempt to reel ourselves back in (painful and will be very much criticized) how will the US deal with falling apart in the same way?
And we know all Black Democrats are sinless
Tired of the native American argument. The native Americans are invaders of this land also they just happen to come here before the Europeans through the Brear Strait.
unbelievable.
I'm not sure what point you are attempting to make in your last post. However, I can say this unequivocally; the Greeks do not own their government, which is why right wings fanatics have carved our a stronghold in both the parliament and society.
Greece has been governed by only two parties since the demise of the Junta. Now, you might say the same about only two parties in America, but Greece has multiple parties, nearly ten alone sit in parliament. Anyway, those two parties - PASOK and New Democracy (ND) - have held the reigns for nearly forty years, both have proved their reputation for corruption, ineptitude and insouciance. The people of Greece are now reaching out in desparation to any alternative to those two parties that have led them to the cusp of the abyss. Now we see that not only is Greece's economy in ruin, it's society is verging on an implosive collapse.
Greeks do not own their government, which is why they protest, elect neo-Nazis and rip away at the very fabric of their society. Imagine ten lions caged in a a six by six foot cage, left alone without a care provider, hungry, idle, snarling at one another. Unfortunately, this is how I see a country I love and lived in for so long.
No Kornfed,
Listen to Rush Limbaugh and I am sure you will hear about it. Obama has take no credit for it.
The problem with Greece is that the citizens have had a cushy ride that bankrupt the country and they don't want to give it up.
Many jobs have been declared "government jobs" and once that happens, workers cannot get fired. Each time a politician wants to be elected he promises a new group of workers that their jobs will become classified as "governement jobs". This leads to lazy ineffective workers who can't be fired. Then they have to hire more people to get the job done.
In addition, businesses are not required to keep proper records and don't have to submit their financial information to the government. They pay whatever taxes they feel like paying.
Ask somebody from Greece. This is all true. The citizens are blaming immigrants instead of both their government and themselves. This isn't the first time Greece has had money problems.
No one held a gun to Greece's head and told them to borrow more than they could repay. Greece could have lived within its means but chose not to. What's happening now is what usually happens when a country, business, or individual can no longer repay the funds borrowed, their remaining assets get bought for pennies on the dollar. If Greece wants to view who is responsible for its failure, it needs only to look in the mirror.
WallStFatCat,
"Busy fleecing the taxpayers as well as dipping into the treasury, the Greek policians have copied the American politicians perfectly."
I think it is the other way around, actually. Athens is the "birthplace of democracy". They are just carrying on an old democratic tradition.
Government corruption plays a far bigger role in Greece's demise than social programs. If it is the social programs (according to you) how do you explain countries like Germany, Canada and others that have a high degree of social programs yet are economically OK. Oh wait... you cant.
The world does not need immigration. How about every one staying put in their country of origin and MAKE that country better. If you want to get rid of anti-immigrant resentment, get rid of immigration. Everyone stay the hell where you belong and make do with your own people. Then the best countries will survive and to hell with the rest.
Dom- you hit the nail right on the head.
"The rapid increase of illegal immigration in the past years, growing despair over the ailing economy and a loss of trust in our political leadership have fueled public anger"
sounds familiar to me. kudos to the ones trying to fix it themselves... we need more of that here.
What people naively fail to accept is that these crises were intentionally created for the sole purpose of collapsing economies for profit.
Google "Mutually Assured Economic Destruction" and your eyes will be opened.
Ummmmm, Maybe Not!
Greece's Golden Dawn party is their version of America's Tea Party. As ignorant, bigoted conservatives get more and more scared of changes that strip them of power and money they will do everything to claw it back. A failing economy just makes it easier for them to try and gain back power. Eventually these ultra conservatives will go too far and eventually implode. The only hope is they implode before they do any real damage. Sadly the ultra conservatives in Germany didn't implode and had to be taken out by the rest of the world. Check your history the rise of ultra-nationalism in Germany by the Nazi Party was brought on by a bad economy and everyone on the conservative side blaming it on immigration and Jews. And the ultra-conservatives were all about spending most of the countries money on the military. Sounds an awful lot like the Republican Party backed by the Tea Party of today.
Competition causes racism and hate crimes? Say it aign't so, I am shocked... "Extreme right strengthens as economy sinks" gee sounds like this country.
Why is Capitalism good when it causes racism and hate crimes? How is our country socialist when our top taxes rates are so low? They used to be 70% and above before our debt skyrocketed back in 1982. Would our debt be as bad if the super rich had paid their taxes for the last 30 years or so? This is what happens when you do not pay a bill for 30 years. You want to talk about holding the person/people responsible for their actions over these last 4 years, but what about YOU. Why can we not HOLD YOU RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS? Who spent money to lobby and get the laws changed in the first place? Who caused this financial crisis? Who was in charge then?
Spreading soon from the Fascist states of AZ and TX all over the US.
to Dom 462174 -Everyone stay the hell where you belong.... My thoughts exactly!
@gide114 "If you also look at your phone bill you will see you pay a tax that covers the phone companies cost for giving away those free telephones." To bad there is not one that shows how much goes to the CEO of that company. How much actually goes to cover services and what goes to cover their salaries, jets, trips, etc. that we the middle class pay for. Uneducated people think that the super rich can make as much money as they want and it does not have an effect on how much the middle class makes. Uneducated people believe that rich people create jobs or that lowering taxes will have the same effect AFTER IS HAS NOT WORKED FOR OVER 30 YEARS. You want to talk about stupid? Go back to your phone bill and tell me how rich people can make as much as they want and it not come from somewhere. How much richer can they get and how much poorer can the middle class get? Elect Mitt and find out. Who started that phone program btw?
"Tired of the native American argument. The native Americans are invaders of this land also they just happen to come here before the Europeans through the Brear Strait."
So who did they invade, kill, and take the land from animals? Who was here before they were? What is the Brear Strait btw? You mean the Bering Strait or Beringia? Damn and you want to talk about uneducated people... I would stop before you make yourself look like more of a dumba$$.
Gideb114;
You may be tired of the Indian argument, however, according to the record, We were the FIRST humans to come to this continent. There is no record of a previous displaced people. So you can be as tired of it as you like, the fact is WE were here first and LONG before any of the rest the came later. Long enough to evolve unique physical traits and develop unique languages. You think this all happens over night, do you?
As for Greece, it is not the banks alone but in concert with the corrupt politician that is to blame for the countries economic problem. The U.S. is still in the denial stage Greece was in a decade ago, Soon enough if the deficit spending is not brought under control, the U.S. will be in the same position. With 13 million illegal Aliens in the U.S. and that number growing everyday, If they were all sent back it would open enough jobs to reduce our unemployment by roughly half.
And do spare me the tired old crap about them picking fruits in veggies, we all know better. There are those who work where I do who can't speak English, let alone write it, and they are legally here? Please. Legal immigration requires the speaking and writing of English. But because government seeks to exploit illegals for political gain, nothing will be done. And just so you know, the production jobs they hold have starting wages of $16.50 an hour plus a nice benefit package, including health insurance, retirement, matched 401K, etc. Not the low wage jobs they insist illegals fill because Americans won't do them, huh?
So all of you bleeding hearts think about that when you can't find a job. How many of you out of work would take one of these jobs if you could? Sorry, you can't because the illegals beat you to them. Perhaps I'll drop a dime to the INS/ICE and open up some jobs for people who at least are citizens. `
This is so loony and conspiratorial it's impossible to even argue against.
Clearly, YOU are the one who doesn't understand what this term means. It is not a term that means countries are interacting economically in ways that will destroy each other. In fact, it's quite the opposite. The more mutually beneficial your economic relationship is, the less likely you are to engage in tactics to undermine that relationship. This is a good thing.
The glaring irony here is that if these Greeks were in Nazi Germany at the time, Hitler would have had them sent to the concentration camps.
The scarier thought is that this is exactly how the original Nazi party got started. The Great Depression was in full swing and Hitler promised better living for the Germans. And to do that, he murdered millions.
This promising the moon in hard times is not unlike the Democrats in the U.S. right now. It never works.
Because electing an incompetent government gives your to right to go stab and beat foreigners on the street.
mgo-1426388 ....(#1.25)...."Mike in Delray, I am no supporter of Obama and no friend of illegals. However, most of these Dream Act students have grown up here."
I hope you feel the same compassion when one of them gets your job because they will work for less or they get a job that one of your kids was applying for.....
Especially when the Executive Order was designed to pander for the Hispanic Vote....Temporary 2-Year Work Cards....Hmmmm.....Maybe designed to make it a 2014 Mid-term election hot button topic again ????
78 UP votes on my #1.1 Comment....must have struck a nerve ....Collapsing Brigade trying to hide the truth again....It's OK...I expect it, you've been doing it a long time now.
somebefuddledperson, you got the party wrong. You MEANT REPUBLICANS. It's the republicans who are saying they will make things all rosy and perfect in super quick time. Funny how republicans are the ones saying they can easily fix the MESS THEY CREATED USING THE EXACT SAME METHODS THAT CREATED THE MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE! How in the hell does that work out? Anyone that believes ANY republican can fix this problem probably needs to be institutionalized because they lack the ability to think or care for themselves. :p
I didn't define the term, but through your ignorance and failure to engage the mental faculties that you vociferously possess, you have show who it is that doesn't understand.
There's nothing like someone engaging in the middle of a debate over Central Banking without comprehending the aforementioned arguments.
Does the term "Chimerica" mean anything to you?
I have very little sympathy for illegal immigrants but the real problem in Greece is the corruption and stupidity in their own government. Just like here in US.
SANDY ! THAT , is by far, the funniest post on here !
The FACT is, that The Democrats will not be happy until the tax rate is 70% so as to be able to fund all the social programs for those who cant "think or care for themselves".
I agree, Max. I just hope the American public wakes up a little faster than the Greeks did, and begin to take action. This country cannot continue to support illegals. Deportation now!
Jesus Christ. Are you kidding me? This is nightmarish! And for the love of god, STOP FIGHTING OVER U.S. POLITICS! It's becoming scary how much our two political parties are insulting each other with just horrible, horrible claims. As for this news article, like I said, it's nightmarish. This Golden Dawn is nothing but bad news, and I have pity for any poor Greek who's turned to these monsters out of desperation.
Sandy,
What a load of BS in both of your posts above. The Tea Party is nothing like the Golden Dawn Party of Greece other than being Conservative. Go spew your ingnorance somewhere else. You are obviously the one here who does not think for themselves and is just spewing hate and the far left talking points.
the more I read comments from idiots on the internet, the more frustrated I become with the public education system.
secondary education should be mandatory and free!
From socialism to neo-nazism...............Greece just can't get it together.
gtouch,
"From socialism to neo-nazism...............Greece just can't get it together."
Neither can we.
Kimposibl , what else would like someone else to pay for ?
How the super wealthy get Richer. Get a nation to barrow from them to run their country. When the country needs more money, they borrow again. and again and,,,, Till they are only paying all what they take in on interest. Now the bank has them by the balls. They default and when prices on stocks devalue 90% they start buying. They keep the money supply restricted tell they think everyone had enough. May take 10 years. Then they start supplying more money and the economy picks up. Then they sell their holdings and get really rich.
Who are they? The Federal reserve bank and their buddy banks.
How easy we turn on our selves instead of the Fed bank.
Let's see. Greece has an estimated population of illegal's that are almost 10 percent of the Greek population and they are sucking dry what little resources that are left.
Political correctness demands these illegal's be accommodated and embraced by the very people they are stealing from. Its little wonder there is resentment towards them by the Greek people.
Look for the socialistic politically bunch to decry this resentment by employing the usual "phobic" comments, likening them to nazis and claiming various human rights violations when the reality is that it was a violation of the Greeks human rights to impose this mass of illegal's on them in an already stressed economy in the first place.
Are they attacking illegals? Or all immigrants? If this is only happening to illegal people in their country, then so what?
Sounds like Kimmy here was foolish and took out a boat load of student loans she can't pay back. Tuff cookies girl.
The USA is over 16 TRILLION dollars in debt and counting every year with Obama in office. Do you have any clue about anything regarding debt-to-GDP. I doubt you could even begin to comprehend it. Do you have half a clue what the long term implications are of this country's DEBT CRISIS? Do you have a fraction of a clue how much it would cost to provide that "FREE" post-secondary education for everyone that you demand? Of course not, because libs like you think if we'd just tax the snot out of those evil rich people, everything would be fine and rosy. Utopia for you. Grow up already.
@Diabled Voter
I don't agree with most of what you said (Citizens United being an exception), but don't you think it would be more convincing to argue with facts instead of insulting everyone who doesn't agree with you as naive or ignorant? If you're trying to actually convince people you're right insulting them is probably the last thing you want to do. In addition most of what you said on here is conjecture. You just seem to assume people will agree with you because of how "correct" your position is. You don't provide enough facts to back up your position. It may be clear to you why you're right, but it isn't to most people.
Also Matt was right when he said the Mutually Assured Economic Destruction makes it much less likely for two countries to go to war since the economic interests are entwined.
Look in the mirror, if Romney the Republicans, and the Tea Party get majority control this will soon be our future
Lets, see. The Greeks who do want to work live in the USA. That's why so many of them have become multi-millionaires. The Greeks who are left in Greece still blame all their problems on the USA, and especially the CIA for the ugliness from 40+ years ago, (which the Greeks can't get over), while the USA's economy has been far better than Greece's for many years. That's because Greeks in their own country are lazy, while those who went overseas have done very well. Many people from all over thew world used to want to vacation in Greece, but those days are over!!! Meantime, I'm sure that the illegals and legal immigrants to Greece are working their butts off to make it in the country, while out-of-work Greece trash act like NAZI's.
Dust@ - Obviously I assume that people who argue a point are responsible to have a certain degree of knowledge and understanding.
In your opinion I have made insults with nothing constructive to add, however, if you would take the time to read the posts of which I was responding, then you would see who it is that has been hurling insults.
Now, I'm not sure that you are genuine to your accusations, but why have you not drawn out those who intiated the Ad Hominem attacks?
Am I to assume that you along with them work for the Koch brothers, and through suppression of posts, and tactics used to make yourselves appear victims is a part of your agenda?
People aren't stupid, and the funny thing is that you people are naive enough to assume that to be the case.
Why have everyone of the posts opposing ludicris views been collapsed?
That tells the whole story to right minded people.
It's a free country, and it's your perogative to disagree with whomever you choose, but that doesn't make your opinon fact.
I'm not responsible to dispell the ignorance of people. If someone is interested in learning, then they will search in order to gain the knowledge necessary to a greater understanding.
These threads are filled with a lot of ignorant people who will not listen to factual information even if it slaps them in the face.
So Matt is right because you say Matt is right?
It's funny how you have just spent an entire paragraph condeming me for not presenting facts to back up my post, and then you turn right around and do the same thing that you condem me for.
How hypocritical! Again I suggest that you along with Matt read and study more the ramifications regarding the global economy with respect to the Central Banking System.
The Banking Cartel has set nations like Greece on a planned course of failure with the purpose of buying resources at fire sell prices.
Professor Fergonsun has made some very interesting observations concerning "Chimerica" in which links two countries having economic interests, but such interests can only exists on a fair and even playing field.
When either country manipulates the economy of the other, they will then severe the economic relationship.
The U.S. system of Capitalistic Democracy was once the most respected systems in the world, but China has now become an economic super power through manipulation of the system.
How can two economies be entwined when each has competing interests?
China owns about 10% of our nations debt, and is now looking to other countries to plunder.
Why would China if "entwined" economically look for a new partner?
Why is it that China is undervaluing it's currency?
It's being proven at an ever increasing rate that the Global Economy fiasco doesn't work.
One need look no further than the EU and their failed experiment for proof that MAED is a farce.
I was never sold on these neo-economic theories from the beginning; mainly because failed economic experiments involve a lot more than just a loss of wealth!
Now, who is it that prints currency and maniplulates economies?
I wait for your answer!
The plan is called Lifeline Assistance. This was intended to provide a land line for emergency service calls to all who could not afford one. The FCC authorized cell phone carriers to extend the program to cell phones, which have open call ability, not limited to emergency services. The phone companies do not pay for this, the paying customers do. All paying customers, look at your cell phone bill and you will see a line item charge for this program.
So, you are wrong on both accounts. The government authorized the phone companies to implement this charge to all paying customers. And the cost of the program comes out of the paying customers' pockets.
History repeats itself. This is what happened in Germany of the 1920's. Ironically, it is the Germans who are producing these conditions in Greece. They should know better. They know how Nazis are made. The Germans should see a repeat of their own history unfolding before their very eyes.
Guess it is time to go dust off that old copy of MEIN KAMPF.
Not to mention, like food stamps, it has gone up dramatically in this admin. I know the taxpayers are paying for advertising in Mexico to let people know how to come here and sign up for food stamps, etc are we advertising the phones as well? Another program that started out with good intentions getting made over for the votes from the poor at the expense of the taxpayer.
This is what the Republicans would love to see in America. It's their f*ckin dream!
If this Golden Dawn Greek party has any resemblance to its historic counterpart, the Nazis, it is neither "Tea Party Republican" or extremist left (Leninist).
In Germany in the 1920's, there were dozens of political parties(114 at first, then 34 in 1929). There were those of the extreme left (Marxist Leninists, Spartacists, etc.). There were those of the extreme right, Volkisch parties, Freikorps. There were the capitalist right parties, sort of like our Republicans or Tea Party. Then there was the middle parties like the Social Democrats. The Nazis were actually politically to the center of all the others. It was a combination of right and left. That is why they called it the National Socialist German Workers' Party. The "National" part was the part that wanted to secure the German borders and have Germany only for Germans as well as their extreme racial policy. The "socialist" part was the fact that they believed in a strictly regulated capitalism and also provided generous social safety nets. They were against international bankers and world economies dictating what the Germans were to do with their country's resources.
These various parties literally duked it out in the streets. Just after losing WWI, the Social Democrats were in power for the most part. They were merely the lackeys that obeyed the orders of the victors of the war one of which was the French. Under the treaty of Versailles, the Germans were required to pay off this huge debt to the victors. They could not do this any more than the Greeks can today. Out of desperation, their government printed money. This caused hyperinflation and further destabilized the country. By this time there were street battles. Extremist Communists would sometimes take over a particular town and run things according to their idea. Then a right wing Freikorps would come in and shoot the reds and set up a right wing way to do things. The extreme right and left would at times take over areas after violent battles. It was in this atmosphere that Hitler formed his brown shirts. The Nazis had to compete in such an atmosphere. The party most like the Republicans simply hid because they were not good at street fighting. The same would be true in the U.S., most republicans would hide and lock their doors as reds and browns duked it out. Politics at that time was not like what we are doing in the U.S. now. It was not carrying signs and typing on keyboards.
If the United States ends up like Greece and extreme austerity is imposed, I can see where politics can get like it was in those days. We could have militias shooting, Black Panthers burning down cities, Neo-Nazis attacking immigrants, and Black Block Anarchists trashing banks as ordinary folks hide behind their doors.
You left out one factor. The American government has the strongest military at it's disposal.
@Disabled Voter
I don't agree that this is a good assumption to make. I wouldn't assume that someone I was trying to convince of something had good knowledge or understanding. It's necessary to state facts and or reasoning behind your positions in order to be convincing.
Regardless of who insulted who first my point is still valid that insulting someone is not a good way to argue a point. I didn't say you didn't have anything constructive to add although I don't agree with you on most of what you said.
Fair enough. There isn't enough civility to debate generally so I agree with you there.
I personally didn't censor anyone, but newsvine's censoring policy is pretty bad. It only seems to be necessary for a certain number of people to dislike a post to get it collapsed. So for articles with a large number of posts there are more collapsed comments.
That was kind of the point I was trying to make in my last post.
One of the only 'facts' you actually present in any of your posts comes from pravda.ru whose reporters are remnants of the former Communist newspaper in the USSR. This is hardly what most people would consider to be an unbiased source.
I suppose I thought that explaining the reasoning was enough. Do you disagree with the fact that both countries economies rely on each other and that this is a disincentive to go to war?
This is something you've said several times, but aside from you saying so what is your evidence to substantiate this claim?
I don't believe that is very realistic. Anything short of all out war would keep intact most of our economic ties with China. I do, however, agree that China likes to take every advantage it can (holding it's currency down, ineffective enforcement of intellectual property, trying to dominate control of strategically commodities like rare earth metals.) A more likely response would be tariffs or sanctions as opposed to cutting all of our ties.
Economic manipulation is not the primary reason China is doing as well as it is. Market reforms in the late 70's and 80's had more to do with that.
Just because all of our interests aren't the same as China's does not mean that our respective economies aren't dependant on one another to a large degree.
This is mutually beneficial. They finance our government spending while they have a safe place to store large amounts of currency.
What you said isn't very specific, but China has the currency reserves to invest in more than just the US.
I agree with you here it helps their export market.
Not really sure what point you're trying to make here... can you elaborate?
Also unspecific and unclear.
Even though you were referring to economic manipulation by China earlier it seems like you're probably talking about the US now since you seem to be referring to expansionary monetary policy in the US.
@Dust
While any debate would indeed provide the factual information on which an argument is made, one must still have a rudimentary understanding of the basis on which any subject rests. Are we to assume that all listeners are mere children with limited knowledge? This is not a collegiate classroom, but if it were then your criticism would still be moot. Does every student fact check their professor at lecture? Call me arrogant, but students must share an equal responsibility.
So, it's alright for you to suppose, but not alright for me to suppose? I didn't disagree with the basic concept of MAED with respects to war, but the premise of shared economies is predicated on mutuality.
Am I to conclude that you believe that only information approved by certain groups is relevant? A truth is a truth regardless of who purports it. The very same information has been written by others, but when one has biased themselves to certain ideas, then it matters very little to them as to the source.
Economic stability in Chimerica is in jeopardy at this very instance. President Obama and Mr. Romney have both indicated the need for tougher tariffs to bring about a fairer exchange. There are at least two parties in every relationship, however, both parties do not always share the same ideals. Ferguson likened them to a responsible husband with an overspending wife.
What happens when a husband and wife cannot control the economies within the home? A large percentage of those marriages end in divorce, as severance of ties. When the benefit of a purely financial agreement does not continue to benefit both parties, then the ultimate consequence will result in separation. If I have an arrangement with you to buy X number of widgets, and circumstance occurs that it's more profitable for you to sell those widgets to a third party, then who are you going to worry about, you or me? China is only concerned about China, and the markets that will give them the return on their risk.
The Central Banking Cartel within the EU are responsible for the monetary stability throughout their union. YES? Their handling of the recessionary crises has demonstrated a willingness to ignore the takers (those deemed to no longer contribute) within their union in search of opportunities with less risk. See any parallels? Again note Ferguson.
Why will Germany be compelled to pump monies into the failing economies in the E.U. when their partners have negative balances on their sheets? Global economies are based on the concept of transference of wealth, and when there isn't any wealth left to transfer then economies tumble.
If the only concept deemed worthy within any economic system is monetary, then those systems are sure to fail. Capitalism that stands on its own will ultimately fail. Socialism by itself will fail. Communism will fail as well. The U.S. has been successful because it has always shared a moderation between Socialism and Capitalism. When either of these systems gains an advantage of the other, they will fail.
The monetary systems of the world our interconnected, but are we to assume that the major Central Banking Cartels have the best interests of the world's citizens in mind? When one's single goal is to win the game through the accumulation of wealth, then they will assure regulation will favor their desired outcome. Who benefits when the Federal Reserve prints money? Society?
I agree with Ming when he said that the U.S. monetary policies do not necessarily consider the consequences to the world. Our government isn't concerned with policy that looks to the future, but focuses solely on the present. Politicians are only concerned about votes, and those votes can only be achieved in many respects by kicking the can down the road. A good example in U.S. history is President Carter. Carter put energy policies in place that would have severely diminished U.S. addiction to foreign oil. Big Oil championed their own agenda, and we know the rest is history.
I find it interesting that in the 1930's many of the same issues that collapsed our economy are some of the same creating our problems today.
Neo-economist championed a Global Economy as being the safest assurance to economic stability throughout the world, but what we are seeing is not stability only the opposite.
Did the world learn ABSOLUTELY nothing from Hitler and Nazi Germany !?!?
Americans need to pause and remember to never underestimate the 'Spirit of America' . We are a beacon of freedom to the World, a Lighthouse of Hope to a ever Darkening planet. Nothing can be politically right that is morally wrong. . I hope all of America pays particularly close attention to the actions of the Greeks and Know and BelieveThis conduct Is NotAn option for us.
@Disabled Voter
My point wasn't to assume that people are completely ignorant (although I would tend be cautious by providing more information rather then less), but to validate your arguments with facts. Otherwise it's just conjecture.
I was trying to explain the reasoning behind the argument instead of just stating the argument itself. In this case the distinction is not so great since it's fairly self-explanatory. I understand your point though.
The truth is the truth regardless of who it comes from, but something is much less likely to be true if it comes from someone with an agenda. I took a look at some of the other articles on their website and it was pretty obvious they had an editorial slant.
I think it may be a little simplistic, but I don't necessarily disagree with the analogy. I just don't agree with the premise that we are at a point where both economies don't have benefits by continuing to be linked.
Ok I think I see what you're saying now that the EU banking system in how it's handling the Euro-zone crises are a similar relationship is similar to our relationship with China. I wouldn't say they were that similar though. Yes both are lending relationships, but China's vested interest in continuing to buy treasury bonds has more to do with securing their money in a safe place then helping the US. I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future. There just isn't another place that's as large that is as safe to invest in as US treasury bonds.
I also don't really understand what you're saying when you say "if the only concept deemed worthy within any economic system is monetary..." are you trying to make a distinction between goods and services and their monetary value?
I believe that the federal reserve does act in the best interests of the U.S. economy if not so much the world. It's fair enough to be suspicious, but their expansionary monetary policy is designed to make lending easier hence helping the economy. It is certainly debatable however how effective that is. I just don't believe it's a conspiracy.
I think most people would agree that government tends to be short-sighted for the most part. Even when politicians acknowledge long term problems it's often very difficult to get the political will to enact change.
I don't really agree with this statement. During the depression government acted decided differently then today. Instead of stimulus spending the government cut spending in the early years of the depression which hurt demand. This ended up hurting the economy even more at a time when the government desperately needed to increase spending.
I'm not sure about that, but a more globalized economy generally leads to a safer world since there are more ties between nations.
One must not summarily dismiss the effects of "good will," "intellectual property," and even "values" in their relationship to the growth of an economy.
Fair enough, no two economist are in total agreement to the cause of the Great Depression.
Uunrestrained systems created bubbles and deflation along with a stock market crash and unemployment, which correlates in our present circumstance.
Thanks for the thoughtful discussion. You've stimulated an old man's mind.
sure. thanks to you too.
Wow, Dust4 and DV.. You two need to come together and write a book on the issues of the day. Thank you for your enlightening discussion and actually making me feel like these blogs are worth reading.
Watch and learn America, this is the direction we are headed in..... Get smart and say TEA PARTY GOOD BYE come election day..... Yep, that includes Romney...!!!!!
I wish we can say goodbye to idiots like you, OHguy!
OHguy are you F***ing kidding me??? ...The reason Greece is in such a mess is because of socialist like Obama who have bankrupt the country due to social programs!!!
Or, better yet, stop the profligate spending that leads to austerity measures being imposed by outside lenders.
OHguy,
I think you have your political views a bit backwards. Greece is in this mess because of the same policies Obama is trying to push through!! Socialism has failed in every civilization that has tried it.
I find it funny that millionaires (yes, RICH millionaires) like Obama and his Hollywood supporters are spewing this garbage about "spreading the wealth"!! If we could take a closer look at their personal investments, money making schemes, deals and wealth..you would see too, that they are no different than Wall Street and far right capitalists. They just make their money off pretending to not be like them.
Obama has been mimicking Greece's failed model (i.e. deficits that are 9-10% of GDP, unsustainable growth in govt. jobs). It makes me think he's intentionally trying to collapse the country. Surely, he can't be that stupid and ignorant? Can he?
This whole mess was caused by the policies of the extreme right in the first place, the Milton Friedman cult of greed. The only way they could convince people to accept their globalized version of trickle down economics (neoliberalism, and no denverbill neoliberalism has nothing to do with the liberal ideology) was to take a hammer to the worlds economy and then turn around and say "see it's broken", it's called the Shock Doctrine, disaster economics, where you cause massive problems, either real or perceived and then offer a solution that you use propaganda to make the people believe is the only answer, usually only morons fall for like the morons on the extreme right, so you have to dump huge amounts into your military and police to force it down the rest of the populations throat. The only country that is pulling out of this mess is the one who did just the opposite of what the NWO wanted and that is Iceland, where they threw the banksters in jail and bailed out the people, they did the opposite of austerity.
The dumbing down of America was deliberate because Milton Friedmans cult, the ultra conservatives, knew, after trying this in central and south America throughout the 70's and 80's, that we were too smart to swallow their lies so they invented Fox propaganda and simple minded reality shows like Honey Boo Boo to dumb the nation down first. And still many didn't fall for it, only the dumbest of the dumb, the total wingnuts, the teatards types believe that cutting all social services, cutting taxes to the rich and increasing them on the poor and middle class will have a positive effect on any one but the ultra rich.
apparently !
Actually OhGuy, Navyvet has it correct as to what caused their economy to collape. You are correct in one thing though this could be our America one day. I say could unless we as a people start to steer our government parties away from their current agendas.
What most people fail to understand is that with either party this could happen. Under the current democratic leadership and their "nanny state" and "cradle to grave" mentality big brother knows best and they as we will soon see will even decide what doctor you should go to and they are now trying to say what you should eat and drink. Their agenda is to setup the American populace to fail and then slowly convince the American people that life would be better on the government dole.
The Republican side is just as scary as they strive to achive a virtual oligarghy where the few who have the money to buy the votes control the power and maintain a stranglehold on the American people by keeping them economically disadvantaged as they themselves cry poor mouth and convince the governement to give them hundreds of billions of dollars which they then use to give themselves bonuses with. All the while dangling the carrot and saying the American dream is still alive and to get out there and keep working for it. Actually the Democratic party does this as well but the Republicans are more blatent and put the money in their own pockets so they get a bad rap where the Democrats redistribute the wealth. (Well most of it I mean they need a few million or so to live on ) in exchange for votes so they can stay in power.
Yeah this could be us one day since at the end of the day neither party is much different. But by all means let us keep arguing amongst ourselves about things we realisticly have no control over.
deprogrammer = "The only one not smart enough to read the article and relate it to Greece's Debt/GDP ratio."
deprogrammer,
The problem with your statement is liberals control all aspects of the media. Including that friggin honey boo boo crap. You have it backwards.
Actually what causes countries to go downhill is allowing immigration at all. If a country has a high rate of unemployment they have no business allowing people to come there to live and work. That includes our US. We need to close the door on any immigration until we get our problems worked out. Same with giving billions in aid to other countries, most of which not only hate america and americans, will never survive on their own no matter how much money we throw at them.
Thank God for the Tea Party! They're the only ones that can save our Country now. I shudder to think of the alternative. This is no doubt the most crucial election of our lives.
The Right is talking about Social Security being a Ponzi Scheme again. That only means one thing, that their Wall Street masters or Ponzi's are licking their greasey little fingers in anticipation of getting their Mitts on our social security again.
OHguy are you F***ing kidding me??? ...The reason Greece is in such a mess is because of socialist like Obama who have bankrupt the country due to social programs!!!
Boy are you misinformed and brainwashed and dryed. The entire world is trying to recover from the crash of the banks implemented by WALL STREET AND their credit default swaps and that happend way back in 2006-2007 when Obama was a Senator. You people lie like Romney.
@Navyvet: Socialist did not bring this on Greece. You are lumping all socialists into one package. Socialism is alive and well in many European countries. In Greece, it is the Greeks who caused this. As one Roman senator once said: "Greece's worst enemy are the Greeks."
idiots.... idiots everywhere.
Greece is falling faster than Felix Baumgartner because they are lazy, didn't watch their gov't spending, worked 1/2 a day and collected a full day's paycheck, have no real source of GDP (tourism only), and went on the Euro when they had nothing to contribute.
Frequencyhopper I did read the article but unlike you I have been studying the problem long before most of you even knew there was a problem. I knew back in the late eighties what was going on, the IMF and the World Bank together with conservative politicians strapped countries with massive amounts of debt like what George Bush did here, then used that debt to call for austerity. The Iraq and Afghanistan wars were never paid for by the last administration, they were purposefully left for this one so that when President Obama tried to do health care reform they could say "but we're broke". In many developing nations we installed ruthless dictators and then sold them weapons on credit so they could fight their own people with and then years later when the dictator had been ousted the IMF would come in and say "you owe us this amount and if you cant pay you need to privatize such and such". They did this to Bolivia, forcing them to privatize their water, giving control of it to Bechtel who quadrupled the rates over night and told the people they could not even collect rain water because they (bechtel) own the drops of water that fell from the sky. The people revolted and chased Bechtel out of the country. This would wide debt was aq plan from the start. As I said they took a hammer to the worlds economy and then turned around and said "see we told you it is broke".
Save the propaganda for the muppets who watch fox, it wont work with me.
deprogrammer I am not in business and know little about finance and economics. But what I have gleaned over the years about these subjects is, as far as I am concerned, apparently summarized exactly by you. To help others who do not have this type of education either, a movie Inside Job really breaks down what you state, and it is very well-made. It is a 2010 movie but touches on some of the points you bring up from the '80's and before.
You used to be a great country... but you let them in, GOODBYE!!!
That's what is going to happen here if Republicans are not all voted out and allow President Obama to pass the jobs bills he has been trying to pass.
Obama's been trying to pass a jobs bill ? really ?
But, you ARE correct in that all we have to do is look at Greece to see OUR future.
The U.S., like Greece, faces a problem of too many illegals. (duh); and, yes, while Obama HAS deported more of them than any other President, he (purposely) fails to seal the border because his political BASE is hispanic and he cant appear anti-latino. He wants higher taxes in order to give money to them and others in order to make them dependent on government, just like Greece. An anti-ILLEGAL immigration president would not be giving them (or advocating) in state tuition, drivers licenses, and legal status, not to mention hobbling states from being able to take action.
We'd better learn from Greece while we still can.
It seems that almost every posting here is off topic. I believe this story had to do with the anger and resentment of the immigrants and with Greece foolishly allowing 1 million of them into a country of only 11 million of course there is resentment. And most importantly note the last paragraph in this article about the featured individual, Rahimi who was acosted and beaten. "He is now afraid to stay in Greece and will go to another country" Why the hell doesn't he and the other 1 million stay in thier own countries and help them propser and become strong? Why is it so much better to go to another country and abuse welfare, social services and demand to be warmly welcomed? Sadly our USA is doing many of these same foolish immigration actions.
It sounds as if the USA will follow the same course at some point with immigration. People get fed up with liberal governments giving away their rights as citizens.
I Barack Obama support this message
Large Public Debt = bad stuff happen
COLLECTIVE BARGAINING====UNSUSTAINABLE BENEFITS====PUBLIC SECTOR UNIONS===GREECE Wisconsin has started on the road to prosperity because it ended this corrupt Mafia practice...
The Teamsters union needs to send these greedy Greek trolls some of those blow-up rats!!!! ( You know the ones that have big protruding teeth like court jester Biden )
This is the same direction this country is going in. Stop importing immigrants, we must start moving them back where they came from. Are you listening OBAMA
lol John then you better go back to Ireland, or England depending on where your family is from. Give the land back to the Natives then.
thatguydownsouth
There is a big difference between those that worked hard to get here legally and those who do not respect our legal system and come here anyway.
Mitt the Twitt is really Mexican and should not be running for President of the United
States. His father and grand-father were born in Mexico. They fled there in order
to upkeep their polygamous lifestyle. His great-grandfather still has arrest warrants out for him. Judith Freeman’s great-grandfather, William Flake, and Miles Romney were arrested for polygamy in Arizona. Flake paid the $1000 to bail Romney out of jail. Romney skipped bail and as a result Flake spent six months in prison for it. These people have no morals. They will ruin America. Even the Mormons are endorsing Obama. They called Romney a shape-shifter.
MITT IS A FLIP-FLOPPING, DRAFT DODGING SHAPE-SHIFTING TWITT.
Mirage - I'm am not condoning any of the actions you speak of but you do know that both Obama and Biden have lied and changed positions many times and both have done deeds with seriously questionable morals right? There are no good politicians.
Having spent a lot of time in Europe lately, this is only the beginning. Europeans are sick to death of Muslims non-assimilation into their culture. The USA needs to follow that lead. I'm sorry but Islam and it's followers do not assimilate like other cultures, that is a fact. Fix there own third world disasters because no one wants Muslims immigrating into their countries. And the resistance with eventually be within governments by way of elections, bank on it.
Mirage, see a Psychiatrist soon, you need to.
thatguydownsouth: Really bad analogy. I need not pick it apart, any thinking person can think through the fallacies in your post.
We do need to do something about immigration. I do not proclaim to be a global economist, but how can we continue on with unchecked immigration while we outsource jobs? That, to me, is just bad math. I am all for immigration with all the proper checks and balances, I'm all for creating jobs here in America, keeping them here and bringing back jobs we exported - too late for the last one. But, I'm not for extremism and a one-for-all immigration policy.
Right - the US is 16 trillion in debt due to immigration. Couldnt be because of unfunded wars, annual deficits and other out of control spending philosophies. You are brilliant.
Actually Roger and Mud if you read what the OP said he didn't specify ILLEGAL immigrants. He said stop "importing" immigrants. We were all immigrants. So I wasnt too offbase at all.
No, actually we're not all immigrants - I'd venture to say that the vast majority of the people posting here were also BORN here. Born here = not an immigrant, by definition. Whether being born here gives you the legal right to citizenship is another question, but clearly, from a purely semantic point of view, the term immigrant doesn't apply to many people. A fair amount of illegals aren't even immigrants in any real sense of the word - they really haven't come FROM anywhere, but were born here and have stayed here their whole lives...
Really what this "we're all immigrants" crap boils down to is an attempt to discredit the Anglo-Celtic peoples who came here hundreds of years ago, who pioneered the country, fought the wars, created all the necessary technological advancesments and built the entire thing from the ground up...its an attempt to deligitimize their claims to have a say over the future of their own country which they're still a majority in.
Ironically, self-hating white people are the only ones who would say something this stupid....
Ignorant lazy with a sense of entitlement. A bad combination in the people of Greece.
And we don't have that problem here....Please
Banaschar is totally correct. At least in North America we get fired if we don't do our jobs and our businesses are required to keep paper records and pay a specific amount of tax. Greek businesses don't have to keep any kind of records and just pay whatever tax they feel like paying. Hard to fund the government and its programs when you can't collect.
Kinda funny how most right wing groups take advantage of peoples fears when they try and gain power. Kind of like in this country.
totally agree with Banaschar.. unfortunately that's the younger generation of America now also. The "everyone owes me" generation who will run our country into the ground because nobody wants to get their hands dirty doing any hard work.
How can such a lazy, ignorant people create such great food and wine?
Close or borders now! I understand the need for some folks to seek asylum here due to their home countries political posture, but they need to settle it, not us. We have no more room in our country. Bring our troops home and seal off the borders now.
Those are our choices? Close or borders?
Sealing our borders isnt the answer but allowing all the poor uneducated peoples in our country isnt the answer either. Billions would love to immigrate to western countries and with them having large families they are bring in every relative they can.
If there's a will, there's away. Even if we close the borders, and electrify the fence, people will find a way to come into this country illegally. This is what happens when you have a developed country next to a third world country. What we need to do is work with the Mexican president to bring up his own country. If people are happy in their own country, they won't feel the need to come over here illegally. Think of it this way, how many illegals come from Canada vs Mexico. I don't remember anyone complaining about Canadians coming over here and taking our tax money. So Mexico is the problem not her people and we need to demand them to fix it or deny them their yearly American aid.
If you can't see that government programs can kill a country, then I guess this point, there is really no sense in taking what you say seriously.
The failure of the Greek government to fulfil the needs of the citizens and allow these criminals free passes will cause rebellion. The USA has more illegal aliens than the entire population of Greece. It won't be long until the American citizens have had enough and nothing good will come of it. Our economy is edging toward collapse. The needs of our citizens are not being met. Illegal aliens cross our borders at will, then leach off the taxpayers. They are supported by politicians who would rather look politically correct than actually being correct and we will be where Greece is soon. We must vote out the incompetent fools who made this mess. If you can't see a candidate who represents your views vote against the incumbent as they have proven they cannot do the job. We don't have to have a failing government. Vote.
Increasing ones debt has never helped anyone or any country. One term and out for this administration of misfits.
So we were were cash neutral in 2008? ROFL!
Then tell me why you republicans gave George Bush Jr. more then one term. His daddy was not as bad as he was and he only got one term. You Republicans are the whole reason this country is in the shape it is in.
deprogrammer- Thank you! It seems most people on here don't know their history!
Mike in Delray- What tribe are you from, clearly you are not descended from immigrants in any way.
Same thing is going to happen here in America. This nation supports and gives handouts to immigrants (illegal ones at that) things from food stamps to free food to gas, that citizens here who are in need of such things can't get. Don't take my word for this. Visit your county Social Service department and look and listen. My own mother who's paid in taxes and worked up to her seventies is living on a very low fixed income. When she went to social services to seek some aid you think she got any help. Yet while I was with her when she applied for aid, I hear and see with my own eyes illegal immigrants signing up and getting approval for those things I mentioned earlier. Individuals like my mother are the very ones who worked and paid in taxes to support this country. Our leaders keep proposing legislation that gives aid to illegals. Have I missed something. They are here ILLEGALLY. They should be getting nothing but a free ride out of this country. Have American people/leaders lost all common sense and rationality. If you're going to allow them here then make them pay taxes like the rest. At least that way those here legally won't be completely footing the bill.
So let's review...
Greece cooks their accounting books to get into the EU. They cook them because most if not all the wealthy Greeks don't or refuse to pay their taxes. On paper it appears as if Greece was doing fine, in reality they are broke.
Then they can't pay their bills because they don't have the income.
So what to do?
Austirity! Yeah, that's it! Brilliant plan! The rich Germany tells poor Greece, "suck it up!" We have the money and you don't! So you, Greece, will now have to suffer.
(sounds like romney's plan)
So the Greece slides into massive unemployment because no one can barrow any money without paying loan shark loan rates. Businesses close, and the economy slides into the toilet.
The Greece Government, desperate to do anything, continues to dance with the EU, thus further destroying their society and making the Greek people that much more desperate. People go hungry, get kicked out of their homes and suicides skyrocket.
In steps, ultra right wing morons promising a desperate population the moon with a few "minor" stipulations. Facist are like that.
And now here we are.
The whole moronic situation is a lession writ large in how austerity does not work. But hey, the repukes here in the US want to try the same BS only under the guise or "privitization!"
Oh yeah, that will work out real well. And if they repukes think, in there infinate wisdom, that they will still be in charge when their house of cards falls apart, they have another thing coming.
vote for romney and get squeezed by the rich.
They can't help it that they don't have the ability to learn from their mistakes!
They've been programmed to do as they are told.
When you continue to make the same mistakes, but expect different results, that is INSANITY!
Thomas Jefferson: I am pleased to say that you're right on the mark! Read the comments on this website. These poorly educated, far, right wing, extremist, fanatics in today's GOP are saying exactly the same things as their neo-Nazi counterparts are saying in the Golden Dawn. Same thing happened in this country when Hitler was on the rise in Germany during the 20s and 30s. The American Nazi movement held huge rallies in Madison Square Gardens in support of their "fuhrer." They're on the rise again in this countryl
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
Why are we FEW the only ones who see the truth? What is going in Greece has "nothing to do with the illegals wrecking their economy and EVERYTHING to do with the banking crisis and starving the government of revenue", but of course the far RW fascist propaganda machine needs "someone else to blame like the teahads are doling to our union workers, acting like illegal immigration STARTED with Obama when this Administration has done more then any other to stop the flow of illegals coming in here, hate muslims because theitr evil, the poor and unemployed because they're bums, college students drowning in debt because those kids SHOULD have taken another major so it's their fault they can't find a job", and the fascist teahads expect everyone to FORGET WHO it was that bailed out Wall St, AIG and the friggin banks, WHO has been paying for the longest war in history of our country after the other one has finally been ended but the President is blamed for ending "IT TOO SOON" and has been villified by the RW traitors who want Afghanistan no end in sight for the Afghan war either because "war for profit is good busines for the wealthy, private contractors as well as rebuilding nations on our taxpayer dime" but better not a spend of taxpayer money to REBUILD our crumbling country, anttiquated infrastructure since that is WASTEFUL SPENDING AND MORE STIMULUS so just keep hacking away at OUR social safety nets, scream about the "freeloaders", granny and everyone on SS, MC or MA as THEse Entitlements are bankrupting the USA" so better privatize them. The USPS which is being bankrtupted into oblivion by the 2006 law that is forcing them to prefund retirements and health benefits for employees 75 years out and OUT of the Postal Worker Retireent Benefits Fund, not the CSRS which indeppendents audits proved was way overpaid into by the PO and by all rights should have been RETURNED to the PO was by this weretched law, not allowed and the PO had to fork all that money over the US Treasury so instead, create a crisis "that does not exist by blaming bad management and the UNION for the USPS going broke when they'eve been forced to pay each year btwn 5.6 BILLION-6.5 billion to the US Government.
Now they're defaulting on this last pymt and HR 2309 stands in the Senate as Issa's horrible bill to cut them down to nothing, fire up to 100,000 USPS workers hangs in the balance. But we are to worship the corporations by calling THEM job creators as we watch the GOOD paying jobs leave this country in droves "because of the HIGHEST corporate tax rate in the world" and greedy, overpaid WORKERS" while most of these corporations pay 0 in taxes and/are geting REFUNDS....and the average CEO makes more then at any other time is our HX, exceot for the 1920's while worker pay has flat-lined and even declined during the last decade...even with the last 10 years of "TEMPORARY TAX cuts" by the last idiot Adminstration who said this would spur job growth, the opposite is true but the RW wants to DOUBLE DOWN on this failed policy by giving these greed mongers MORE tax cuts while we're still at WAR".
Our huge deficit is the result of this idiocy but blame all of US for causing it and with an R&R Presidency when all their draconian cuts aimed right at the other 98% of the USA are imposed, the crime rate will soar as the desperation among the "peasants" becomes and all out war as people try to survive in their next great depression while the wealthy laugh all the to the bank and we crumble-JUST LIKE GREECE and these countries pushing austerity on their populace for a mess they DID NOT create. Blaming "socialism for this" is the propaganda of the fascist RW lie that we must do this too, or ELSE!!! Look at my own state of WI where we have been living under the same cuts of Walker and teahad minions so his rich benefactors can get their BIT MONETARY rewards in tax breaks, deregulation and union busting.
Look out USA as we are NEXT if stupid, clueless people canot understand they're slitting their own throats to keep believing the fascist lies into voting against themsleves. We are finished if this continues. Finished and will be in at least 3 wars-( Iran, Syria and Lybia), if the R's steal this election. It is horrifying!!!
Are you saying it's not the Greeks fault. It's Germany's because they need to give Greece money. That makes a lot of sense. Why is it someone else fault if you fail and why should Germany have to bail them out. Greece needs to fix their own problem....
I think your missing one point as you may be thinking as a bleeding heart mentally as I do as well. If you look at the bigger picture of a global population increasing at a rate of 1 billion people every 12 years and increasing. The United States legalizes 1 person every 46 seconds, of those people, 14 percent are job creators and over 60 percent need some sort of government assistants (our tax money). We need to limit this to the 14 percent of job creators in order to stabilize the economy. This will never happen in the 2 party system we have now because of two clear facts:
Also anyone who thinks the global problem of over population has nothing to do with religion, needs to step back and ask themselves, what god would allow a species to destroy a planet? If the over running of a planet is your idea of god, then I feel very sorry for you, but I will continue to educate people one at a time if necessary. One word from the pope and a total re-write of some of these other warped religions would make the world a safer, less crowded place. I think humans have seen it all in the name of God or Jesus or Ala or whoever and we still brainwash our children. I know when something devastating happens in life you turn to worship, but what you’re really doing is connecting with other people. Simple common sense has been lost in the name of God and we are left to fight over versions of morality; and in the mean time we kill each other and destroy the earth because a mortal told us an old story. The "my book is better then your book" mentality is childish and dangerous and something the world needs to get over, because we are all human and we all make mistakes.
Don't worry Mitt will bring China to the US when he takes office and it will start on day one. That is why China is buying up all the closed down manufacturing companies in Ohio. Ge t ready for your 99 cents and hour wages.
It all comes down to jobs. When the citizens of a country - Greece or the US - have few jobs and see their lives upended they are going to get mad.
With 20-30 million illegal aliens in the US and us letting in almost 2M more legal immigrants a year we are essentially in the same position as Greece... American workers are being hit from the bottom and top... wages are stagnant of declining (if you have a job) and people are afraid.
I see mass demonstrations and riots in the US in the next 18 months.
It must be the fault of the video, you know the one that caused the spontaneous attack on the Consulate in Libya
Just look to Europe and see where Obamaizm is going to get us.
That is why countries like Greece are going broke. All those people who came into the country and just because they could not find a job, or did NOT want a job because they knew all they had to be was a warm body and they would get g government free housing, medical, food and other good stuff.
All the while the tax payer of Greece are shelling out tax money not only for their own government paid benefits, they are shelling out for 2-3 other families as well.
Well that is nothing more than a house of cards and like the U.K. that house is falling under it's own weight.
Social programs only work if everyone puts into the pot, but when you have millions and millions of parasites like we have in this country taking and taking and putting nothing of value back, it will break under it's own weight.
99.9% of the 60 plus have paid into this system for all their lives and now Obama took trillions from their programs and is giving it in the form of medical care for the illegals, and other people who have not and never will pay one penny into the system.
Working a life time and paying into the system for most almost 50 plus yrs of work and now getting almost nothing for doing so. The illegals and other parasites are laughing all the way to the bank.
Obama and the socialist Democrats want us to believe that we have nothing to worry about.
We are trillions and trillions in debt and still they tell the warm bodies to keep coming.
They send trillions and trillions to other counties in the form of welfare checks under the guise of foreign aid. Mean while here at home we have people to house and feed and give medical care too.
Socialism only works if everyone puts in the system. Taking it from one group to give to another is just what Greece and the U.K. have done. Look where it is getting them. BROKE..
Steven100, you hit the nail on the head. These liberals that want to continue to welcome illegal's should think about this: Open your door to the Mexicans and Muslims and give them the room next to your daughter or young children, welcome them to your dinner table and pay their medical bills. I didn't think so! The liberals are in favor of illegals as long as someone else is paying the bill.
steven100: I realize that you are not an educated person and that you support the neo-Nazi movement in this country. It's so easy to make up the lies, half-truths, and innuendos that you have spewed and that present them as though they have even an element of truth. Geeeeeezzzzz. I'm betting that you never graduated from high school and that you are living off the taxpayers having never made an honest dollar in private enterprise in your life.
TJefferson-1649275,
Not sure about your own percieved level of education , but that's another issue . I for one certainly disagree with the approach our goverment is going with social programs. I think that steven100 makes soem valid points . Social programs only work if everyone has to contribute. There is no balance or sustainable way to keep 'socialists agendas" if you run out of resources to support them.
Greece is in a dire condition ,,,the govement can't keep giving resources away that it does not have !!! I also believe that the USA is also in serious trouble
Seems to me that an uneducated person calls people names and provides no valuable information.
EDIT: This comment was directed at TJefferson-1649275. Too bad his comment was collapsed.
@Tjefferson
typical liberal, can't debunk anything that Steven100 said so you revert to name calling.
Hope they pay you well for blogging.
And there is a lot of truth in what Steven100 said.
The problem Greece faces is that the gov't. subsidized the population for way too long with money they did not have. Now that they can no longer borrow to pay for these programs, they must eliminate them. But the citizens that have been handed these entitlements are helpless because there are no jobs for them to take even if they decided to get off their butts and go back to work. This did not happen overnight, it took years for this situation to develop. When you start socializing any country, and do not have the funds to pay it, this is the result you get. The biggest downfall of any civilization has been the inability to remain solvent. And if America does not stop spending the way it is now, we are destined for the same path of financial destruction.
steven: Sieg Heil!
steven; tea; tmp;carribeanslim: Read, "For richer, for poorer," The Economist, October 13 - 19, 2012, Vol 405, Number 8806, pp. 3-6. That, of course, would be beyond your intellectual capabilities.
TJefferson-1649275 ,,
Oh if you claim that you read a book , you are intellectualy capable ,,,OK , you still don't bring any thing to debate to the topic. As was mentioned in previous posts , your attacks on others views really does not do much for your ideas . Just keep thinking you are sooooo "intellectually superior" , and remember , this is just "News Vine" and you're really no "Thomas Jefferson"
caribbeanslim: If you think "Steven100" above has some valid points, then you have spoken volumes about your intellectual depth. Why not read "For richer, for poorer," The Economist, October 13 - 19, 2012, Vol 405, Number 8806, pp. 3 - 6 rather than simply shooting off your mouth? If you think "Steven100" has some valid points, then your arguments are not really based in economics are they? In fact, they really don't have anything to do with politics either. Your problem with Obama must be centered in something deeper. So, reading and understanding The Economist, a conservative journal, is not something you would want to waste your time with anyway, is it?
I certainly can see and interpret a great deal of your own intellectual depth,,,,,,,"If some one disagrees with you , they are "intellectually inferior ",,,,,,,,,,,,,But OK
BTW , I never stated I had any problems with Obama ,,,but you did not pick up on that. So again , if some one disagrees , then it's fair to diminish their view points . I guess you're qualified ,,,,,,,
Bottom line: it doesn't matter what you're upset about or who you blame for your lack of money/resources, you have no right to physically attack another human being. Period.
Then let the polititions park these free loaders in your back yard and you can pay taxes for them.
The problem is more the citizens themselves than the immigrants. The citizens have lobbied to have their jobs declared "government jobs" and can't get fired so they don't do their work. People aren't forced to keep records and pay their taxes.
The citizens are rioting because they don't want to give up being lazy and having a free ride but they don't understand that there's no way the money will keep coming. This is not the immigrant's fault.
what's the matter ronnie? you not getting what you imagine is your share of the free government feeding trough?
yep, just ronnie is just another freeloader, that figures he can blame the jews and the immigrants for his intellectual inadequacies.
what's really sad is that ignorant jacka$$es like ron vote
maybe ronnie should just STFU and go collect his welfare check
Last part of the article the victim says he will go to another country, suspect that isnt his home country Afghanistan. Economic refugees or even political refugees are flooding the western world and destroying the very way of life they are trying to obtain for themselves. Allowing these peoples to immigrate just allows their home countries to go on as they do.
Yes, and that country will be Canada, and from there, USA.
The poorly educated, far, right wing, extremist, GOP fanatics on this website to a person are siding with the poorly educated, far, right wing, extremist, fanatical Golden Dawn Greeks. They share the same hatreds and the same violent answers. Why should any RINO be surprised about that. No wonder intelligent members of the Republican Party have left the GOP in droves.
Just as in Germany with a extreme depression in the 30,s was the Mother of the Nazi party, hardships in countries that used to know plenty will also breed extremism. Greece is a small country but if some of the larger countries like Spain, Italy also start down that path expect extremism also.
True that tj but left the Republicks for the Libertarians not cause I see boggie men under the bed like you. But the Republicks were trying to reach across the aisle and compromise with the Dumbocrats, or trying to out Dumbo the Dumbos. With more laws and more give away programs. So are you still with the Dumbo's cause if you are not a lick of difference between the 2 parties.
TJefferson- You are beyond confused.
jusbkoz: Sieg Heil!
ARMY: Dude, I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but I think it has something to do with forget both the Democrat and Republican Parties and join the American Nazi Party. Is that about right?
Got 1/2 right both forget barry and smit, join the Libertarians.
Jefferson , someone that doesn`t believe in a giant liberal welfare state is a Nazi ?
Strange. We are headed towards Greece more very day, and last week it was announced that for the FIRST time in 20 years, violent crime is UP 22% in the United States. That Obama thing is really working. Economy worse, crime worse, foreign policy worse. He sucks.
Right you are George, but the peeps who get their daily "bread" from barry and other states controlled by the Dumbocrats don't know the end game or care. 75 years the Dumbocrats along with the wimpy Republicks have told people get in line for more SS, Medicare, Medicad, food stamp etc. Then they hire any army of lack of public service workers who are just as big a leachs as them to "teach", police, and mointer the give away programs. I figure we will be Greece in 3 to 4 years, better not be to close to any large urban areas, it is going to get ugly.
Their attitude toward foreigners will only continue to hurt them. Greece has always relied heavily on tourism and now that will also crumble. Who wants to spend their hard earned money visiting a country that only has contempt for its visitors. They don't see beyond the end of their nose. I lived in Greece many years and was shocked to see they were pretty much operating on the cash system and bribes to avoid taxes and to pay off officials to look the other way. Now they seem to be blaming everyone else for their woes.
Right on Sandra. Somebody who gets it.
...lol....illegal aliens sucking off the system are not "tourists" who actually contribute to the system because "tourists" go home.....
Your argument makes no sense at all. You have no idea how things work over there. You are so blinded by prejudice and hate that you blame all the woes on the tiny minority of illegals when it is the citizens themselves (including government officials) responsible for the mess they have created.
....I don't blame just the illegals....of course the Greeks themselves nanny stated themselves into bankruptcy....but how are they going to employ one person out of every eleven in the country who is there illegally.....they can't....and if you think that doesn't affect their bottom line....you're 100% wrong.....
I'm sorry but I completely disagree with what you are saying. You just don't understand the Greek mentality. When most of its citizens refuse to pay any taxes the entire system starts to collapse. It doesn't matter whether they are small shop keepers, hotel owners, doctors, lawyers or the farmers selling tomatoes in the market stalls. Most of the LEGAL citizens refuse to pay their share of taxes. There are no records of sales including real estate transactions. Everything is paid for in cash where there are no records to document anything. The entire system is broken which impacts every citizen. They use any excuse to strike and seem to prefer sitting all day in the cafeneions drinking coffee. Banks close, schools close, the airport barely functions, the ferries are cancelled, the supermarkets close....this goes on week after week. This has little to do with immigration and the major problems are caused by the Greeks them self. You can't possibly understand what goes on there unless you have lived there. Everyone is affected by the corruption and blatant disregard for following the enforced laws in the book. Blaming illegal immigrants on Greece's woes is just passing the buck on who is really responsible. Stop being blinded by discrimination and bigotry!
...sorry, but it is not bigotry or discrimination to expect people who are living in any country to be there lawfully....one out of every eleven people in Greece is illegal, but you seem to think that is just fine and dandy....... I don't, and how dare you falsely toss pejoratives at me for saying so......as for the Greek citizens who do not pay their taxes, the chickens are coming home to roost and it sounds like the street violence will only get worse because they don't know what working for a living is all about.....
Hey can't they just tax the rich some more? We are trying to do that here in the US, I wonder if we will wake up and realize that taking from one group and handing it to another never works? Nah we have been doing that here in NY state for 50 years, Police chiefs making over 400k per years, teachers 125K, etc, etc, with health and pension benefit to die for we will be Greece in a few short years.
Greece has the same problem we have in that even though tax rates are high nobody pays with all the loopholes they have gotten over the years. Rich pay 15% if they have the right income and the poor pay nothing, instead get tax money back. Police in my community make 35k, teachers the same but we arent taxed the same as you are, thank God.
Hey Dude your teachers only make 35k, where do you live on Mars. Tell them to head to NY State here after 20 years a teachers makes well over 100k, ditto for the police, and I don't mean in the city. As far as the rich thing the 15% is a capital gain, the rich guy, well he already paid his 28% on the money he worked for, this is an investment gains tax. And guess what we don't have a revenue problem, it is a spending problem, all th big blue dumbocrats states, CA, Ill, Ny, Ri are broke, becuase they spend to much money.
Obama'a plan to make us Western europe is a MISERABLE FAIL.....Alarming is the number of Obama lovers who are completlely IGNORANT to Obama's grand plan, or simply aren't aware of what is happening in europe
Dumbest voter bloc in history, thoses Obamamites. simply ignorant and clueless
"WHAT DO WE WANT?!" "WE DON'T KNOW!" "WHEN DO WE WANT IT?!" "NOW!!" The Obamanites.
Actually, I am a Republican and I have already voted for President Obama. Romney is nothing more than a puppet for the TEA Party. As Grover Norquist said, Mitt Romney will be our "Monkey with a pen" and he will sign anything we tell him to sign. That was all I needed to hear.
Terry, Terry, Terry.....I saw this and almost spat out my coffee.
Romney has long ago lost support of the tea party, because he's not conservative enough. Please put some clothes on...your ignorance is showing.
Is that Jason from Ghost Hunters?