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A look back at the violence that has overtaken the country
News analysis
BEIRUT -- The Obama administration’s suggestion this week that it was prepared to sideline the opposition-in-exile Syrian National Council and attempt to handpick more representative leaders at a crucial meeting next week came after months of frustration over the group's dysfunction and ineffectiveness.
Made up of Syrian intellectuals and political exiles, the Istanbul-based SNC has barely been able to coordinate the simplest of tasks, let alone run the opposition against a well-entrenched regime such as Bashar Assad’s.
It has clearly exhausted the patience of the United States.
On Wednesday, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said the administration was suggesting names and organizations that should feature prominently in any new rebel leadership that is to emerge from a four-day conference starting Sunday in Doha, the capital of Qatar.
"This cannot be an opposition represented by people who have many good attributes but who, in many instances, have not been inside Syria for 20, 30, 40 years," Clinton said during a visit to Croatia.
"There has to be a representation of those who are in the front lines fighting and dying today to obtain their freedom," she said.
Anti-regime activists say at least 36,000 people have been killed since the struggle to oust Assad began 19 months ago.
U.S. officials have watched with concern the SNC’s inability to rally around a common cause.
Syrian opposition wary of US push to coalesce leadership
The members appear incapable of electing a leader that the whole council could agree on. More often than not, they opt for bland technocrats to fill the void.
Lacking a strong leader, the SNC has been ineffectual at inspiring the opposition.
A leaderless revolution
Most importantly, the members of the council have no relevance to the people who are fighting and dying on the Syrian battlefields.
Some of the rebel fighters are former Syrian Army conscripts who defected to the rebels rather than be forced to kill their own. But most are novices to combat.
Former farmers or businessmen, many of these rebels have only the most rudimentary training and are poorly equipped. When asked questions about the SNC, their responses tend to be lukewarm, at best.
These are not rebels caught in the zeal of fighting behind a charismatic leader.
As fighting rages in Syria with heavy air raids, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said the U.S. would push for a major revamp in Syria's opposition leadership. NBC's Keith Miller reports.
Instead, their unity stems from a hatred of the regime in Damascus -- but little else. The SNC enjoys little influence among them.
There is no genuine leader to rally around. This is a leaderless revolution.
Faiz Amru, a Syrian army general who defected earlier this year, told The Associated Press that any transitional government or body created abroad cannot possibly represent those dying in Syria.
"Everyone is trying to push their own agendas," he said by phone from the Turkish-Syrian border. "The big powers have hijacked the Syrian revolution."
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The West fears that an opposition leadership vacuum would allow the anti-Assad rebellion to tilt toward Islamic radicalism, rather than toward the inclusive, secular and democratic values the SNC claims to uphold.
Anybody traveling through rebel-held areas in northern Syria can easily spot the foreign fighters, driving around under the Islamist black flag.
These men are not Syrian. Some are Libyans, others Chechen. They are all radical in their religious and political beliefs.
So it is unsurprising that the United States has decided to seek an amicable divorce from the SNC. The events of the past year have proved just how fickle a partner they were.
Lessons from Iraq war
The United States also may be applying lessons learned from the Iraq War.
The Bush administration was burned when it put its weight behind Iraqi exiles, such as Ahmed Chalabi, who had little relevance in the eyes of the local population.
NBC News
People resisting the army of President Bashar al-Assad in northern Syria cope with loss and prepare for fighting.
So far, nothing suggests that Syria will be any different.
Attempts have been made in the past to rectify the disunity and make the SNC more relevant.
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But when members of the opposition met in Cairo last June, the results were nothing short of catastrophic. Screaming matches ensued. Nothing of value was decided.
It would have been comic, had the reality in Syria itself not been so tragic.
Machine guns operated by motorcycle brakes? Get a glimpse at the rebels fighting against Assad's forces in Syria's mountainous Jabal al-Zawiya area.
US: 'We're not giving them a list’
The State Department has spent the past few months determining which members are worth backing in Doha, but insists it would not issue dictates.
"We're not giving them a list," said State Department spokesman Mark Toner. "Ultimately it's up to the Syrians themselves to make those choices. This is in no way telling them what to do."
Syria warplanes pound rebel strongholds
Muhydin Lazikani, a London-based writer and SNC member, told the AP that Clinton had no right to criticize the SNC at a time when the Obama administration has no clear path for Syria.
"All they try to do is blame the SNC," said Lazikani.
Complete World coverage on NBCNews.com
Mohammad Sarmini, a Turkey-based SNC spokesman, told the AP that the United States, through this new push, is "trying to make up for its shortcomings and impotence to stop the killings and massacres in Syria."
The Obama administration has said it is not providing arms to internal opponents of Assad and is limiting its aid to non-lethal humanitarian assistance.
Progress or paralysis?
Western officials hope that the meetings in Doha, held over five days, would be everything that the Cairo ones were not.
Participants and observers hope the gathering will prove effective in choosing a unified council that is made up of all of Syria’s ethnic and religious groups.
It remains to be seen whether the opposition is able to elect a representative who can serve as the face of the rebellion against the Assad regime. The SNC will be allocated seats on the new council, although they are expected to remain in the minority.
But if the Doha meetings fail, the only certainty will be that Syria’s nightmarish civil war will drag on and the tragic events played out every day throughout the country will continue unabated.
The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.
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Leave a Comment:
I would recommend that anyone who wants a better idea of what exactly is going on in this war read the current article by Kim Sengupta, 'The plight of Syria's christians: We left Homs because they were trying to kill us'. This on the www.independent.co.uk. It gives a far more even handed account than we are accustomed to from our US media - and certainly the mythology which has been built up about the rebels evaporates. This reportage does not reference this or that 'activist' group, it actually involves interviews with those effected. On the basis of this I do not think the US should have anything whatsoever to do with the conflict at all, and should bring pressure to bear on Qatar, Saudi to desist in their financial and arms support of Jihadi groups, at which point we may be in a position to persuade Russia and China to reciprocate.
So by "even-handed" you mean "supportive of the dictatorial regime". I notice you don't have anything to say about Russia's military support of Assad, or China's blocking of UN SC resolutions to condemn Assad's actions.
I feel for the Christians, whose plight will only get worse as sectarian division and violence becomes more common and the state institutions becomes more dysfunctional and ineffective. But their rights and safety cannot come before that of the Muslim majority. Protecting the 10% portion of Syrian Christians isn't worth subjecting the Sunni Muslims to corrupt dictatorship. There was a time when there was a better way forward, with reform and elections, but Assad refused to budge and now it's come to war. Surprise, surprise... the minority suffers as a result.
@Bob,
The small Christian minority CHOSE to ally themselves with the small Alawite Shiite minority in the Baathist Party. Yep, the same Baathist Party that Sadaam Hussein used to rule Iraq except that in Iraq it was a Sunni minority.
For decades the brutal and repressive Baathist Party and the Assad family gave all the elevator rides to their cronies, Allawite and Christian. And to the Sunni majority they gave the shaft.
Like they say: Paybacks are hell. But, in truth, the Alawites and Christians made their bed and now they are complaining because they have to lie in it.
The plight of Syrian Christians is something they brought upon themselves in order to be a part of the ruling clique. Now they will have to fight or flee --- and most are choosing to flee to Lebanon, further exacerbating the problems there. In Lebanon, the Christians will ally themselves with Israel as always.
Chris, when your options are between those who let you practice your religion and culture to those who only wish to slaughter you (Sunni terrorist wahabi scum - the Syrian Rebel filth), what choice do you really have? You have spoken like a true terrorist sympathizer and traitor..I also love how you brought Israel into this as well..ultra - liberals and terrorists (alike) cannot go one day without bringing Israel into a subject.
SF accountant: No, I do not mean 'supportive of a dictatorial regime' - which you would be aware of if you had read firstly the article I reference, and secondly if you note in my statement the comment to the effect that 'Russia and China' reciprocate. At the end of the day this is now a proxy war, and the only way to stop it is for the proxies themselves to withdraw support. Basically I advocate support for no one in fact - the termination of support for all. Finally, a lot has been said about Assad and his troops, probably true, but the romantic myth of the rebels is dissapearing fast as their conduct comes into the light of day. In terms of the cited investigative journalistic report, the rebels are defacto imposing ethnic cleansing on the Armenian christian Syrians. People who will get scant welcome in Turkey, given their history, and just about anywhere else.
Typical from the Obama administration......since WHEN do you PICK who is going to run ANOTHER COUNTRY.
FAILED domestic policies......FAILED International policies.
Where is the President in explaining his administration's FAILED support for Benghazi ?
Where is the President's final report on "Fast and Furious" ?
One and DONE.
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VOTE Romney~Ryan to take back America from the Progressives and the RADICALS.
I would like to point out how ironic it is that an argument about "supportive of a dictatorial regime" is being made in a blog thread on a news article about the United States setting up a "puppet government" for Syria. Which is worse, a dictator regime or a government selected by one of the most powerful nations in the world and force on the people of another nation?
Lets all be honest about this if we please. This by all the other countries about the issue of Syria is not about the plight of the common man in Syria. Its about the desire to force ones will on that country. The only reason that the US has not (at this point) applied the "Libyan option" on Syria is because of concerns about the two other nation governments that could actually stand-up to the US and who both have strategic interests in the area. If it was not for that concern, the US would already be applying a "kinetic military action" on the Syrian military, Syrian large agricultural areas, and "TV antennas".
And I am really worried that the US will by at 'war' with another country by next Wednesday when the politicians will be "more flexiblie" about their actions.
Most of these Syrian "rebels" are not rebels at all. They are nothing more than religious fanatics who want control for themselves. While some may have been living in Syria all along, this does not mean that they really are or ever have been part of mainstream Syrian society. These so-called "rebels" do not want to establish a free and open society in Syria, they simply want to take over and institute their particular brand of Islam and Sharia Law and the law of the land. They will persecute and/or execute anyone who does not go along with their views of how people should worship and live. As bad as people try and make Assad out to be, at least under Assad the people of Syria are free to live and worship as they choose. Assad may be an Alawite himself, but his government has been by an large a secular minded one. The same can not be said of any of the current "rebel" groups fighting to overthrow Assad. As for Turkey, they need to stay out of this fight and stop providing support to these "rebels". The Turkish government needs to stop allowing these "rebels" to base themselves and launch their attacks from Turkish soil. The same goes for the US and the other Arab states. They need to stop interfering in the internal affairs of Syria and let them resolve this civil war for themselves. These outside fighter that are streaming into Syria are religious fanatics. If Assad does fall it will by no mean bring an end to the fighting. The fighting will only turn from the "rebels" fighting against Assad the the different "rebel" groups fighting against each other for control. The fall of Assad will not only not make things any better, it will result in Syria falling into complete chaos with no functioning central government for a very long time to come as the different "rebel" groups fight it out for control city by city and town by town.
And this is US business how? This is the reason we are hated in parts of the world. Apparently our politicians were absent the day they taught the word "sovereign".
That's because the Israelis' are not always trying to murder the Christians.
During Syria's last bloody civil war in the 1970's a Canadian woman Judy Feld Carr literally smuggled almost the entire Syrian Jewish community out of S-hit-rya.
"At the time, the totalitarian Syrian regime didn’t allow Jews to emigrate and tortured those caught trying to escape."
"I can’t even fathom such barbarism — although in the years that I was doing this rescue, what they did to Jewish prisoners was beyond everything I could have ever believed,” she told The Times of Israel recently. “I don’t think the Jews would be alive today if that community of over 3,000 was still there. I can tell you that."
“There were more than 4,600 Jews in the country” when she started. The others either got out by themselves or were helped by the Israelis."
Will Christians be the next to suffer Islam's twisted and brutal purge? I doubt it suckers.
I would like to find some information about why instituting a no fly zone over Syria would be a bad idea. I can't think of any.
Sanescience - here a the most important reason why instituting a no fly zone over Syria is a bad idea...it's none of our business!!! We have no right whatsoever for butting our noses into these kinds of affairs in other countries. Period.
Also, this is a great example of how religion is the root of most of the evil in the world. No religion. No reason to fight.
Syria is much different from Libya. It's more urbanized, and it's air defenses more modern. A no-fly zone would require far more resources and loss of life in Syria than it did in Libya.
This is quite an arrogant assertion, here. You really think that there are no forces within Syria fighting for Syrian interests? I see no reason to believe this is a proxy war at all. This conflict is about a dictatorship that pushed its people too far, and is paying the price. The Syrian people are fighting for themselves (or their religion, in the case of some groups), and the regime is fighting to preserve its control of the nation. The desires of those playing geopolitics with the conflict could hardly matter less, and withdrawing support on either or both sides would only drag things out since neither side looks like it's approaching a breaking point. At the end of the day, just like the beginning, this is a revolution.
And I would like to point out that you're making a strawman argument. The United States isn't aiming to set up a government, they're meeting with the rebel government to see if the administration wants to support it financially and militarily. That's a far cry from setting up a puppet government. And the alternatives are to just pour weapons and money into whatever group we initially decide is "the good guys" or cover our eyes and pretend nothing is happening. A lot of people seem to prefer the latter option, and that's fine. Luckily our administration is wiser than that.
If we're being honest, and I'm to take your assertion seriously, then I have to honestly say you're completely wrong. The other two nations (I presume you mean Russia and Iran, since China has no dog in this fight) would not be willing to fight a war with the United States to preserve Assad's regime, nor could they plausibly "stand up to" the United States militarily, especially on foreign soil on a nation adjacent to a member of NATO. So your strategic assessment is completely wrong. The reason we haven't intervened in Syria is because it's a legitimately complicated issue and Americans are tired of seeing their military resources squandered in the Middle East while people decry our "imperialism".
Romney has stated that we should arm the Syrian opposition even before we figure out who they are. President Obama is once again showing the wisdom of evaluating each situation before acting.
Because it won't have ANY beneficial effect and it will likely make things worse. On one side you have the Sunni Islamofascist thugs coming in from Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the UAE who will stop at nothing in their determination of eliminating Assad and imposing their own brand of terror. On the other you have the Shiite Islamofascist thugs coming in from IRAN and Pakistan who are just as determined to keep Assad in power and use him for their OWN agendas.
In short, this is NO LONGER simply a civil war. This is a PROXY war - between Saudi Arabia and Iran, duking it out for control over the entire Middle East. WAY too messy and complicated for a no - fly zone to handle. It would be a prescription for disaster.
Let them kill each other. Let us stay out of the way.
Hope I answered your question for you.
SF accountant: It is a proxy war for the following reasons, all publically known. (1) Saudi Arabia and Qatar are providing essentially unlimited financial and weapons support to the Salafist component of the FSA ( A report be a recently retired senior red cross official in the area ). (2) Turkey is providing direct support, sanctuary and direction of a cross border insurgency ( reports too numerous to mention - incidentally while wiping out some of their Kurdish problem while trying Kurdish journalist essentially for treason ). (3) Russia and China providing a counterbalance support. (4) Again, numerous reports of Iran providing counterbalance support. (5) Numerous indications that the dregs of the earth, mercenaries/jihadis etc from far and wide have infiltrated the fight. (6) Also, numerous reports of US involvement at some level on the side of the FSA. This is then by any standard definition now a proxy war between sectarian components - sunni/wahabbi/shia ( Qatar/Saudi/Iran ), geopolitical interests - Russia/China/ USA and possibly Israel. So, not an arrogant assertion, merely one based on the facts as they are, that is absent ignorance.
Personally, I don't believe at all that I am tired of this conflict considering that it is none of my business. It is thier country to do with as they please. So I agree with you Bob-3360448.
Preventing foreign aircraft from overflying Syria is a very good idea. It is so good in fact that the legitimate government of Syria has spent great sums of money over the years building up effective anti-aircraft defenses. Even the warmongering Israelis are hesitant to fly over Syria. A really effective no fly zone indeed.
There is no good answer and it is pointless to pick sides when there are about a dozen of them who can't agree.
It is somewhat ironic that at one time Assad was mainly focused on cracking down on Jihadi terrorists like Al Qada. Unfortunately as this was going on, repressed groups within Syria and even people with little to lose or gain, saw an opportunity to create their own "Arab Spring". Some allied with the jihadis, some conducted their own operations. Assad over reacted and took the view that only his loyal supporters were his friends and everyone else was a mortal enemy as they all threatened his regime.
The nature of a dictatorship tends to lead to these kinds of things. People who hate him for different reasons and a leader who feels threatened to a paranoid level. Assad crossed some lines that he likely will not be able to step back from. The problem is that there is no viable alternative to replace him. Assad needs to go, but it will just lead to a power void which will only result in more conflict and more killing. Really, at this point as there is no good organized opposition, the best thing that could happen is a military coup to replace Assad and declare an immediate cease fire while pledging to listen to all the various opposition groups and at the same time expelling all foreign fighters.
Stopping the military actions needs to happen, but destroying it would be foolish. To neuter the military in this region would just be begging for outside interests to come in and take over. In reality we should be looking to Russia and China to support and encourage a military coup with the type of reforming outcomes I described above. It really doesn't appear that Syria is ready to be a country with a democratic nature, but maybe with that transition in mind, a benevolent dictatorship might make for the best transitional government. Russia and China are in the best positions to influence this type of outcome, but we need to be negotiating with them rather than engaging in a war of words. Assad needs to go, but Russia and China need not lose an ally in the process. Better them to have the responsibility to oversee and help the transition than us. Russia and China are players because of financial interests. Neither wants a jihadi religious based government. I don't see that either is interested in running Syria either. They just want the financial relationships. As I see it they are really the best choice for driving a transition as they have the most to gain or lose.
The US and much of the rest of the world community wants the killing to stop, but none of us wants to be the ones responsible for "fixing" Syria either. Syria's neighbors are either worried about a power vacuum of wish to impose their own influence of power on the country. It may seem counter intuitive but the two countries who seem the most vocal in the UN about opposing actions in Syria, might actually be key to finding a peaceful solution. We just need to look at it from a different perspective.
To all those who would say it is not our business, I would quote Dickens
The Ghost [of Marley]:
"It is required of every man, that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide; and if that spirit goes not forth in life, it is condemned to do so after death."
"Business!" cried the Ghost [of Marley], wringing his hands again. "Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence were all my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"
HA! Religion is as much an organization of people as government and corporations. If you think the atheist governments of the 20th century mega death weren't just as murderous and sadistic as some religious idiots, your in denial.
"the members of the council have no relevance to the people who are fighting and dying on the Syrian battlefields."
Syrian National Council is stationed in Istanbul.
What business Erdogan and his fundamentalist Sunni Islamic thugs have in Syria? Why don't Kurds get their own Kurdistan?
Let the jokes of Iraqi wars be not repeated in Syria and Iran.
KEEP AWAY and remove sanctions on Iranian oil to weaken the Sunni Saudi, Qatari, Kuwaiti, UAE and other seventh century despotic and bigoted rulers.
Sunni Saudis and co and oil companies have already manipulated oil prices from $40 in 2009 to more than $110 with sanctions on Iranian oil.
Followers of Islamic cult, especially Sunni Saudi inspired Islamic radicals and militants (al-Qaida, Salaffi, Wahhabi, MB, Taliban and other label ones), are fast marching backwards to their seventh century desert tribal days.
They are indulging in rapings, lootings, killings and genocides of non-Muslims (Darfur, S. Sudan, Nigeria and spreading like wild fire in many regions and Muslims (Libya, Yemen, Mali, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan and other places).
Sunni Saudi backed Salaffi and MB new chapters are opening up in Egypt. Just watch the fate of Christians, women and Israel as the time goes by.
Even in Syria, if Assad is overthrown by Sunni Islamic religious Nazis like al-Qaida, MB, the conditions of Christians will be unbearable just like Iraq.
Pakis and Sunni Saudis and co are responsible for 80 percent of world problems including economic ones.
Examine the devastations with Iraqi wars (our heavy debts and PIIGS in Europe) and current sanctions on Iranian oil and the resultant oil price manipulations.
WE HAVE NO ROLE and NO SANCTIONS ON IRANIAN OIL!
It would be interesting to know how many posters on this board are from other countries. What is their opinion of our upcoming election and their opinion of Obama and Romney.
"ldo
Typical from the Obama administration......since WHEN do you PICK who is going to run ANOTHER COUNTRY.
FAILED domestic policies......FAILED International policies."
Ido wake up the US have been doing this for DECADES this is why Muslim hate us, we are alway sticking our nose in their busness.
As for the failed Domestic policies I disagree and so do many others.
BTW Mitt want to do even more there than Obama so you're kind of a hypocrite on the subject don't you think?
Sanescience
So, in your infinite wisdom, which side do you pick? And how do you deal with the millions on the other side that are now pissed at the US?
I don't think thats what Bob is suggesting. Rather, I think he's concerned about what "kind" of people these rebels actually are. And while I think it's true that rebels might legitimately be targeting Christians because of their relationship with the regime the fact remains that perpetrating violence against religious/ethnic minorities doesn't exactly scream 'liberal, pro-Western democracy'. One can't help but think of Bosnia, Lebanon, Iraq, etc. when seeing such things. As I understand it the Christian loyalty to Assad was never that strong anyways.
At any rate, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with a Westerner having an anti-Sunni, pro-Christian bias here. After all, they fly planes into our buildings and the Christians don't.
What Wall Streets Bumbling Barry & Billary are becoming more than a little delusional about maintaining control over their secret Al-Qaeda mass murdering supporters?
Watch the PBS Video if you don't believe!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l-8PFk8j5I
If you willing go to bed with "Flea's" your bound wake up with "Dogs"!
“War is peace...Freedom is slavery...Ignorance is strength.” ~George Orwell, 1984
Another powerful Obama Administration moment. Please be nice to us and don't attack our embassy and maybe we will give you some Millions. Say "democracy" and you will get more, but be careful not to say "Bin Laden" or "Bi Den". Remember we killed them and will get you too. And we mean and know what we are talking about.
MUW
Wow! I always wondered why when the planes hit the sides of the buildings that they could have ever fell straight down. I have been wondering about this for years. I think that these engineers are some of the most patriotic citizens that have ever been to put their lives and careers on the line to put this out.
I have a sister that works for the federal government and NIST. I should ask her if it is plausible.
How can you be frustrated with the rebels? They are fighting with rifles and handguns against Tanks and Fighter jets. If your not going to help them fight for freedom at least don't say they are doing a $hitty job while they are still standing vertical. F grade for Hillary.
Actually, with rifles, assault rifles, light machine guns, RPG's, motors and car bombs of various types. In fact the perfect armament for an insurgent force preferentially fighting from within civilian occupied areas. This kind of armament and tactic has been the backbone of guerrilla/liberation movements throughout africa. It is what the Taliban uses, and how they use it as well - and the consequences for the US in Afghanistan, and Afghanistan itself, are equally evident. And clearly in Syria there is no shortage of ammunition or finance as anyone who has had any military experience knows ammunition is consumed at a prodigious rate, and without the logistics and cross border support these guys obviously have this would have long stalled out. By analogy, if Pakistan did not support the Taliban that war would also have probably petered out.
The government isn't frustrated with the rebels; they're frustrated with the SNC, the supposed political leadership of the rebellion. The SNC has very limited control and even less consensus, so it's natural the United States doesn't want to throw its weight behind it.
The connundrum America faces is that we really don't know who the rebels are. According to some reports Al Quaida has joined their ranks just has they have attempted to do in Libya. It could be that in supporting the rebels America is in effect, aiding in the effort to entrench a terrorist organization into Syrian affairs.
In the long run the smartest move for American would be to steer clear of Muslim affiars anywhere iin the world.
Well, most rebel militias are autonomous. That's neat for a persistent insurgency, but a nightmare for an organized political force. So yes, there are Jihadists in Syria, and that makes it easier to paint the rebels as extremists rather than citizens legitimately fed up with a dictatorial regime.
These Syrian rebels supported by the Sunni Islamic killers like al Qaida, MB and other label ones.
They want the help, arms, and so on from the US, British, West and others. After their jobs are done, these very ungrateful and backstabbing Sunni Isalmic Nazis hate US, British and West most.
Have you forgotten Libya so quickly?
"Anybody traveling through rebel-held areas in northern Syria can easily spot the foreign fighters, driving around under the Islamist black flag.
These men are not Syrian. Some are Libyans, others Chechen. They are all radical in their religious and political beliefs."
Some one-way vision people are talking of supporting dictators like Assad. If Assad is a dictator, is barbaric, beastly and seventh century bigoted Sunni Saudi ruler with his 5000 princes and princesses democratic?
Is there a worst ungrateful and backstabbing ruler than Saudi ruler?
The shameless bunch of Sunni Saudi ruler and his princes and princesses and their mosques had to be guarded by the US soldiers without their Bibles.
With Iraqi wars as an excuse, the same Sunni Saudi, Kuwaiti, UAE, Qatari manipulated oil prices as high as $145; became richer and funded their Sunni Salaffi, Wahhabi hate preaching and killer mosques all over the world including the US.
How many mosques were there before 1991 and how many are there now?
the sad truth is, there are no "good guys" in this conflict, and there will be no winners.
And I hate the idea of working to preserve a dictatorship. So much so that I would be thoroughly disgusted if our government sided with Russia against the rebellion.
We have no roles in whatever way!
NO ARMS, NO SUPPORT, AND NO IRANIAN OIL SANCTIONS to weaken our enemy No. 1, Sunni Saudi, Qatari and co Sunni extremist proxies like Salaffi, Wahhabi and killers like al-Qaida, MB and others operating with different labels!
"The Bush administration was burned when it put its weight behind Iraqi exiles, such as Ahmed Chalabi, who had little relevance in the eyes of the local population."
We have to learn a lot from Iraqi wars and Afghan war.
We, British, West and most non-Muslim nations became weaker.
Instead, the Sunni Saudis, Qataris, Kuwaiti, UAE and co became richer and stronger by funding their Sunni Islamic extremist versions of Islam like Salaffi and Wahhabi mosques all over the world and their Sunni killer gangs with labels like al Qaida, Taliban, MB, and others.
Saudis, Pakis and UAE were involved in 9/11.
Sunni Islamic extremists and killers were involved in Benghazi, Libya killings.
That's a great reason to oppose them here! They're not our greatest enemy, perhaps, but their government remains a powerful force against freedom and we can do without them.
How are they are powerful force against freedom when their own people enjoy freedom. Maybe not to the point the US has but they still enjoy freedom. They are just a powerful force against US foreign policies.
What makes me happy, is Muslims killing Muslims. Hard to improve on that. We just need to keep our distance and not interfere one damn bit. Then when it is all over, the Muslims "own" the mess and not us.
While it doesn't thrill me to see anyone killing anyone else I do agree with your thought that we need to steer clear of getting involved in Muslim affairs ANYWHERE.
You are oversimplifying the demographics....there are Moslems and Christians of different sects in Syria. Foreign fighters are bringing in radical Islamic aspirations. The Syrian military developed a huge stockpile of chemical weapons. The U.S. should at least be working to make sure Islamic terrorists do not gain control of any.
I totally reject the idea of Muslim Isolationism. To do this is to back away from the > 1 billion Moslems who want peace, freedom and economic opportunity, the same things people everywhere want.
pb in CA: Commies used to speak like you. The extremist ideology had its shortest span.
If there billion plus Muslims, Muslims have made most of the non-Muslims and minority sects Muslims enemies! Non-Muslims form more than four billion!!!!!
Followers of Islamic cult have fast marched backwards to their seventh century tribal days stealing, looting, raping, kidnapping, killing and genocides of non-Muslims and their own Muslim minority sects like Shiites, Sufis, Ahmedias and minority tribes.
Assad is one of the best ME Muslim leader. Why can’t the Sunnis tolerate him?
If he is not acceptable to Sunnis, why a Shiite leader is not permitted to take over in Bahrain?
We see Muslims inventing problems in most of the non-Muslim nations and many Muslim nations.
Even in the US, we can notice these actions!
When Muslims form more than five percent, downhill march starts.
Muslims are inventing problems in Myanmar, Thailand, Philippines, India and other places.
When they form more than 30 percent then it is Sudan, Somalia, Nigeria, Lebanon (few decades back)
If Saudi Arabia and many Muslim nations do not permit non-Islamic religious places and scriptures, Muslims have no right to have their mosques, hate preaching and killer training centers, in non-Muslim nations.
If non-Muslims can’t live in peace in Muslim nations, Muslims don’t have any right to live in our nations.
Islam has to reform with times.
If it fails to do then it will be end of Islam in this century itself as their Allah has predicted. It will follow communism!!
We should not be involved here but we are and will continue to be. The end result will be the same as Egypt, we will install the Muslim Brotherhood as the new goverment. Why the Obama admin. has done this I can only guess. The Obama admin. knows full well that the M.B. is a radical Islamic group, bent on Sharia law and the defeat of the western world. The M.B. calls it "Civilization Jihad". The last meeting held in Cariro could not produce any agreements because the Free Syrian Army would not attend. They do not want the M.B. involved in Syria. The M.B. is banned in Syria and Assads father nearly killed them all, for good reason. As to the Obama admin. they have no less than 7 M.B. members installed in the White House and H. Clintons deputy chief of staff is M.B.( called Muslim Sisterhood for women). Janet Napolitano promoted a M.B. member and gave him top secret clearance which he used to get info. and then tried to sell to the top bidder. Watch the youtube video of Louie Gohmert question Janet about this. She tries so hard to avoid telling the truth that she attempts to call Gohmert a racist and "Islamophobe". I think that we are in real trouble here.
I wasn't aware that we "installed" any government in Egypt. In fact, it looked an awful lot to me like we were trying as hard as possible not to involve ourselves with that. You must have access to some very "unique" news sources, or you're just making things up. Your description of the Muslim Brotherhood leads me to favor the latter explanation.
Additionally, if you're so terrified of Muslims that the idea of seven (SEVEN, my God! Just think if they ever reached double-digits!) of them working in the White House concerns you, then yes, "Islamophobe" is the correct response to describe the problem. The Muslim Brotherhood is no threat to America or the West.
@KENAJnone,l
Your screed about the Muslim Brotherhood is lies from start to finish. No Muslim Brotherhood involvement in the State Department or Homeland Security. Period. This is just lies made up by people like Limbaugh and Hannity and spewed to the mindless GOP minions.
Too bad Romney is going to lose so badly. Looks like he will be right down there with the traitor McCain on election day. 538 is currently giving Obama over an 80% chance of winning and the number is increasing every day. Romney has momentum, all right ---- straight downhill.
It will be interesting to see the post next Wed. Look at the numbers. Obama did not win by a landslide in the popular vote in 2008. A little voters dissatisfaction with the status quo is all it will take for him to get busy packing for a new residence in Chicago.
As I recall, the MB led in Egyptian elections, but the handover of power from the military government that took the helm once Mubarak was gone has been extremely slow. Maybe one thing the Vietnamese accomplished was to show the US we could no longer simply decide who should run the governments of other countries. My impression of Obama is that unlike some of his predecessors (LBJ and GW Bush come to mind) he makes a point of getting a range of opinions before making his decisions.
Yes, they did but our media failed to report that the Egyptian people said that the election was rigged. In the 2005 elections when the M.B. took the largest share of parlament seats the police were called in to remove blockades at polling places that prevented oppisition to the M.B. from voting. There are all kinds of accusations about the 2012 elections including an 108% vote in favor of the M.B. In the up coming elections all 3 candates are M.B.
If we didn't learn that lesson in Vietnam, we got a harsh refresher course in Iraq.
Which is why they now have an elected government that likes Iran more than us.
So yeah, regime "installing" doesn't really work. You can't liberate people to be oppressed under a different flag.
If Hillary ever thought she'd have a shot at 2016 she might as well go buy her retirement home somewhere she's done. Can't believe Bill would even "stump" for BO after the way he threw her and everyone else under the bus.
Actually, Mrs. Clinton wants to be a Supreme Court Justice. She does not want to be President of the United States now. It does not take an election for her to get a SCOTUS seat, only for President Obama to be re-elected, for him to appoint her, and for Congress to approve it. Hence the reason she publically stated that the Bengahiz incident was her responsibility not the President's.
And Hillarity's qualifications for appointment to SCOTUS are . . . ? ? ? ? ? Thought so.
none of this stopped them in Libya.
but then again Libya had tankers of oil they could ship to us very quickly.
Chris, don't forget. "Vote early and often" you Obama drone.
Yeah just what we need. A part time dyke on the supreme court. We already have a full blooded one there
I'm supposing we will hear how many millions we've sent these folks after the election
this is hopeless if there is not leadership among the people fighting this war, a headless revolution?
We should mind our own Business and keep our noses out of it. Look at what happened in Libya when we helped them defeat Gadhafi. We got a good swift kick in our ASS for it. Syria is headed for a Taliban style government after this is all over no matter what we do. It will be just like Iraq with Bombings, and Kidnappings. Trying to be friends with those people is Hopeless, but our government Still just will not learn.
Hillary Clinton's not too good at picking her team in Syria.
"There has to be a representation of those who are in the front lines fighting and dying today to obtain their freedom," she said.
Since they are all dying just who would the representation be representing?
And then...
"This cannot be an opposition represented by people who have many good attributes but who, in many instances, have not been inside Syria for 20, 30, 40 years," Clinton said during a visit to Croatia.
So why is Hillary trying to make up the rules for picking the opposition?
She isn't any better in Syria than she was in Benghazi...
But, hell, whoever said a politician had to make any sense...
The US will be backing away from the rebels when it becomes clear that their al-Qaeda contingent was involved in the Benghazi attack.
I say make Syria a sniper proving ground.
In order to graduate Sniper School the sniper is sent to Syria to assist in taking out key Assad military leaders of all types.
If the sniper completes her or his assignment then he or she graduates. If not, the sniper stays in Syria until the assignment is complete.
The best way to win foreign relations with a country is too send in your Sniper.
Before we move on to Syria, let's take a look at Benghazi. Remember that 4 Americans lost their lives there and now it looks as if the FBI was complicit in creating an envirement that made it easier!
FBI agents are making their way to Tunisia to interview a suspect detained there in the Libya consulate attack, sources tell Fox News, after Tunisian officials initially refused to grant the U.S. investigators access to the man.
Tunisian authorities agreed to let the FBI question Ali Ani al Harzi only if it is done "under Tunisian sovereignty," a condition apparently being cited in recognition of domestic pressure in the North African country.
The latest development comes after an intervention by Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., who wrote to the Tunisian authorities about the lack of access. It isn't clear what pressure the Obama administration had been applying.
U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other Americans were killed in the Sept. 11 attack on the consulate in Benghazi, Libya. The local Libyan extremist group Ansar al-Sharia has been blamed for the strike, which has become a top Republican criticism of the Obama administration in final weeks of the presidential race.
Harzi was arrested at an airport in Turkey in the days after the attack and transferred to Tunisian custody, but until now, U.S. interrogators have not had access to him. Even so, U.S. intelligence agencies have confirmed through facial recognition technology that the Tunisian was present the night of the consulate attack.
“We are very pleased the Tunisian government is working with American investigators to allow in person access to Ali Ani al Harzi," Graham said Friday. "Under this arrangement the interviews will be under Tunisian supervision and consistent with their sovereignty and meets the needs of our investigative team."
Graham expressed optimism that this "welcome breakthrough" will help the investigation advance.
“It is unfortunate it has taken this long to get an in-person interview, as time is of the essence in cases like this," he said. "We hope our interview of Ali Ani al Harzi will bear fruit and we can bring to justice those responsible for killing Ambassador Stevens and three other Americans."
Read more: #ixzz2B6d2J7k2
Latest information reveals that the consulate in Benghazi was in effect a CIA station, and more of the staff stationed there were CIA than diplomats. This explains the confusion and delays in fully reporting what happened and why, as a full explanation would blow the CIA cover. The ex-SEALS killed there were under contract to the CIA.
The US has done NOTHING to help out in the war on drugs in Mexico, which has lead approximately 60,000 dead. And here we are trying to help Syria? It's madness to know the Mexican people are dying to an American drug addiction.
I thought we supplied and trained the Mexican federal agents that fight the drug gangs. I know we're spending a lot of money down there on SOMETHING in relation to our drug war.
A leaderless revolution? All it takes is, THE PEOPLE to be unhappy with how the country is being ran joining together and doing something about it.
Hillary, get Busy Massacre in Syria@gosumercogito.blogspot.com
Took me a while to get back since someone decided to crash my computer for speaking against the Muslim Brotherhood again..happens nearly everytime. Do not take my word for anything. Find out for yourself. Read these two documents Muslim Brotherhood "Project" and "An Explanatory Memorandum On The Strategic Goal for the Group in North America". These docs. were used by the U.S. goverment to prosecute The Holy Land Foundation for funding terrorism. Then watch Louie Gohmert question Janet Napolitano during House Judiciary Committee hearing. All facts NO LIES. PS to Chris749391 I'm not a repb. or dem. I am an American NO PARTY AFFILATION.
You claim someone hacks your computer every time you speak out about the MB? Right. Just another conspiracy fruitcake. You can keep your documents, thanks. I'm not paranoid enough to buy that nonsense.
Kena, you appear to be a brainwashed Fox News junkie.
Let's support Assad and help him crush the rebel. The US knew how to deal with him and he will be much more well behave after this mess.
Are these the same Syrian rebels that Romney wants to arm? Same Bush policy, most likely the same disastrous results.
this Clinton broad didn't know a thing then and still don't know a thing now!!! what a pitty !!
Romney said that he wanted to make sure that the right people were armed. He did mention the Muslim Brotherhood not being the right people. But when have we ever been able to make sure of anything in that region of the world, or trust any politician for that matter?
You can say what ever you want about me,,, but if anyone wants to know the truth its easy enough to find out. Soooo instead of just dismissing me find out for yourself!! It only takes a few minutes. By the way I do not watch fox news.