No they gave that up after the Civil War.

Besides if Texas were a country Mexicans would slowly populate it, like Texans did once to take it away from Mexico, and take it back for Mexico. Of course Texas would still want protection, trade and money from the rest of Americans just like the Catalans would want from Spain.

Maybe Texas, along with other southern Red states, should seek independence as well. It is deplorable the arrogance and the contempt of the narcissistic Blue states, and liberals, with which they have, for so long, treated the peoples of the Red states. (If anything it will at least free itself from the pestering nuisance of Liberal condescension and diatribe.)

So why not?, Texas does pay out more than itreceives on every dollar and it has the critical mass in industry and infrastructure (in addition these associated Red states) to be viably independent. Moreover, it would seemingly be able to focus its economy towards trade towards South America which does share commonality in both languages and in a substantial degree of European values on checks-and-balances and respect of property rights (as opposed to China) - and yes Romney was right! - not to mention trade with Europe.

I wish Minnesota would secede from the Union. In 2008 we were the sixth highest taxed state per capita and the forty-sixth in receiving our tax dollars back. It would be about time the other states payed their own way. Plus, it would be great to tell the Dept of Ed to go @!$%# themselves and fully fund our schools which used to be near top in the world.

Jose V.

I understand that Austin wants to secede from Texas ... where would it all end?

Oh please, what a bunch of children. Every state is interconnected, or do you think New Jersey grows most of it's own food or Texas produces computers? We prosper or not together, not with this silly territorialism. Partisan politics quickly collapses in the face of economic reality.

(reply to BLACKCATWHITECAT...) ... When you guys stop being narcissistic and condescending.

AG99

For the record, I was not being partisan. Minnesota is one of the most balanced states in the union. I honestly believe we could self-sustain. We have massive natural resources and manufacturing capabilities. The only thing we don't have is oil, and we get most of what we use from Canada.

I do understand that we are all interconnected, but I don't agree with forced funding or forced charity if you will, to fund those that do not provide for themselves.

Jose V.

(reply to BLACKCATWHITECAT...) ... When you guys stop being narcissistic and condescending.

Which guys? Seems to me that both sides in your country are equal to the task.

John: I suspect any state trying to secede would run into the same issues Catalonia is now discovering. Economically we have much more to gain by remaining as one political entity than splitting up. The Federal Govt pays for much more than most people realize. Never mind the military, there's infrastructure, Medicare, SS, trade representation in the international arena (including copyright issues), and so on.

Could states get by on their own? Some of them, probably. Would they be better off? I don't think so.

(And as it turns out, Texas actually does produce computers, but I'm sure most of you get my point.)

AG99

No. We pay for those things, not the government. We simply allow them to redistribute as "they" see fit.

I would argue that if MN taxed its citizens as much as the federal government does we would become the true north star state and a beacon of how it could be done. Do you honestly believe that our roads, education, or social welfare would not be the best in the country keeping funding for ourselves?

Yes, we do pay for those things--collectively. Could Minnesota afford it's own military? What if you get widespread flooding from a rapid spring melt? What if China rips off some of your intellectual property? What is your age distribution? Do you have enough young people to support your retired population? Do you have enough industry and agriculture to support yourselves without expensive imports?

When these issues get spread out over the entire country, no one state is overburdened. While it might be possible for some states to go it alone, and I don't know the details of Minnesota's economy or demographic, I still think most states would run into hardship.

Jose V- after reading your post I can see why so many people treat you in a condescending mannner and, by the way, it has nothing to do with LIberal or COnservative.

Texas, Arizona and Florida always thinking of doing this.

Well, As far as I know MN has almost never gotten federal disaster money. We have some of the best lawyers in the country. And considering that most of the wealth in this country is held by those over 55 maybe our SS system could model its original intention and make it need based. We also have the Mayo which develops a lot of the most cutting edge treatments in the world. Just a tax on rich people coming here for treatment could fund many things.

When these things get spread out over the entire country, it makes us Minnesotans poorer, not richer.

And, by the way, Costa Rica has no military and has been a democracy since 1949. Why would we need a military when we are in the middle of the country?

(..reply to Purnell MeagreJr) If you think I am alone in the wilderness on this ... as long as it gives you peace.

I'm sure it's all very complicated and would probably take months of study by people who know way more than we do to really get to the bottom line. Whether Minnesota really is poorer for being with the rest of us is not something we can determine here.

As for your military question, you're assuming the rest of the US would remain together and protect you by default. That's a bit parasitic, isn't it?

Parasitic? Like us funding other states? It goes both ways, doesn't it?

It doesn't really matter anyway. There is no way they would let it happen. Then every state that pays more than they receive would do the same. I think that was one of the reasons for the civil war if I am not mistaken.If I remember right there are only around eight states that pay for the rest.

Is Texas taking notes?

Funny, I thought something very similar, different state perhaps.

AG99 basically is asking all the right questions and giving all the right answers to states independence. It is all fine and good that people become so nationalistic for their state until it is time for reality.

The reality is that paying for a decent military ( definitely needed in the case of Texas ) is hard, vary hard. States who found themselves independent would find any number of other issues they never thought about.

how about this.. What if you are Montana and obviously landlocked. What if the states around you refused to deal with you on any meaningful level, say bad relations or some other conflict. What then? Then there is the printing of currency, infrastructure, cost of medical care would increase because Montana alone would buy supplies in smaller quantities and lose any discount that buying in larger quantities would provide and a host of other things.

Then you get down to other countries. Both China and Russia would love to see even 1 state leave the US, and if you think they are not sowing the seeds for separation in the US, they are and will continue to do so. OFC, we are so divided already that it wont take much work for other countries to destroy the US.

I think the states that want to leave, should. I also think that if we did have states leave, it would be in ea state best interest to share one military. Turn the current US military into a united defense force for north America and ask Canada if they would like to participate in the common defense of the continent.

i have read the proposal for what happens when Texas becomes it's own country. They have really unrealistic notions of how business and economy will work as an independent country and they still plan to use the US dollar for the foreseeable future. I would think that money and currency would have been the first problem to take on, not one of the last.

QE137

While I don't ever see the viability of secession due to federal influence, there are fundamental flaws in our current system. Government works best to represent the people when local communities influence state policies, and then in turn states influence federal policy. This chain is broken when lobbyists in Washington are able to determine policy and sidestep 300 million Americans wishes. The top down approach of believing that the federal government can fix anything or that they should not be influenced by the needs of state and local governments eliminates all of our representation.

As far as Texas needing a decent military, why? The real threat to Texas is the federal government not enforcing immigration laws that are already on the books. Why do you assume that the federal government can defend Texas when the don't even enforce those laws. Sometimes it takes states flexing their own muscles like Arizona to force the hand of the federal government to do what it was intended to do. When the states lie down, we all lose.

Don't get me wrong, I love this country, I just wish it would function the way it was intended.

No state is really going to try and secede. That's just sour grapes after the election. First,the Civil War showed that ultimately states don't have a right to secede. And a Federal Government can and will stop them. Second,there are only small numbers in favor of succession in any one state. Even in Red States that supported Romney. A vote for Romney doesn't mean a vote for succession. From 30-48% of the people in those states (depending on the state) voted for Obama. So those people automatically would oppose succession. And in a referendum,those voters,plus the majority of sane Republicans would defeat any succession attempt.

john-737278

I say Texas would need a military because once it leaves the US, there is a high probability that other countries may take interest in an undefended Texas. The natural resources and other infrastructure of Texas would HAVE to be defended. A populace running around with side arms would be no match for, say, the Mexican army. I am not saying Mexico would try a stunt like that, but there are countries that might. It is for the conflicts you CAN NOT see coming that you need a defense force. The money Texas would expend on defense would negate a nice chunk of the advantage it's economy provides.

I understand what your saying about the system not working as intended. Then again, thats every American's fault.. We refuse to vote both the Dems and Republicans out. We refuse to have centrists in office that can compromise and debate without acting like children. If things are not working like they should, then we all have a hand in that.

The article is from Associated Press and is not siding with anyone.

In no way does it negate my premise. NBC news still posted it on its byline, and the article IS completely silent on the other half of Catalonia.

From New World Encyclopedia ...

Originating in the historic territory of Catalonia, Catalan is one of the three official languages and has enjoyed special status since the approval of the Statute of Autonomy of 1979, which declares it to be the language "proper to Catalonia." The other languages with official status are Spanish, which is the official language throughout Spain, and Aranese (a dialect of Occitan spoken in the Aran Valley).

Under the Franco dictatorship Catalan was, until the 1970s, excluded from the state education system and all other official and public use, including a prohibition against giving children Catalan names. Rural-urban migration originating in other parts of Spain and later foreign immigration as well reduced the social use of the language in urban areas. In an attempt to reverse this, the re-established self-government institutions of Catalonia embarked on a long-term language policy to increase the use of Catalan and has, since 1983, enforced laws that attempt to protect, and extend, the use of Catalan. Some groups consider these efforts a way to discourage the use of Spanish, while others, including the Catalan government and the European Union, consider the policies respectful, or even as an example which "should be disseminated throughout the Union."

Today, Catalan is the language of the Catalan autonomous government and the other public institutions that fall under its jurisdiction. Basic public education is given in Catalan except for two hours per week of Spanish-medium instruction. Businesses are required to display all information (e.g., menus, posters) in Catalan under penalty of fines; there is no obligation to display this information in either Aranese or Spanish, although there is no restriction on doing so in these or other languages and this is often done, particularly in Spanish. The use of fines was introduced in a 1997 linguistic law that aims to increase the use of Catalan. The law ensures that both Catalan and Spanish—as official languages—can be used by citizens without prejudice in all public and private activities. Even though the Generalitat usually uses Catalan in its communications and notifications addressed to the general population, citizens can also receive information from the Generalitat in Spanish if they so desire.

Also, starting with the Statute of Autonomy of 1979, Aranese (a dialect of Gascon) has been official and subject to special protection in the Aran Valley. This small area of 7,000 inhabitants was the only place where a dialect of Occitan had received full official status. Then, on August 9, 2006, when the new statute came into force, Occitan became official throughout Catalonia.

We can go on, and on, and in fact you are supporting the premise of the descrimination against Spanish speakers in Catalonia ... just to quote from from the Catalan News Agency of June 27 of this year on the comptempt of the local Catalan government in purposedly ignoring Spanish Supreme Court rulings to stop repressing the freedom in the use of Spanish, a case in point on the education in Spanish ...

Catalan should not be the only main language of instruction for small children, says Spain’s Supreme Court

Barcelona (ACN).- A new ruling against the current education system in Catalonia, in which Catalan is the language of instruction has been made. The Spanish Supreme Court has ruled that Catalan cannot be the only main language of instruction for children between 3 and 6 years old. According to the sentence, Spanish should also be explicitly included in the law as language of instruction in Catalonia for the smallest children. The decision overturns a Catalan Supreme Court ruling from last March that validated the system of education in Catalonia (that has been working for 30 years) and stated that Spanish was not in any case excluded from schools because teachers and pupils used it when needed.

The Catalan minister for Education, Irene Rigau, said in an urgent press conference that this ruling does not change anything and that the system “stays the same”. She argued that the main educational framework in Catalonia is based on a law, the LEC, passed in 2009, one year later than the decree affected by the Spanish court ruling. Therefore, she said, education in Catalan in all schools is protected by this last law. Rigau urged all teachers and families to continue their normal activities in the next school year as they have always done.

In the 1950s and 60s Catalonia had a massive influx of people from other areas in Spain. They are trying to protect their language and culture from further encroachment as Catalonia's economy is a big draw.

I am sure you have issues with your own SCOTUS.

p.s. I live in Quebec and know what I speak of when it comes to language and culture and the silent demographic forces that can extinguish them.

This does not justify repression.

I have lived in Catalonia. Yes, briefly. But I still have immigrant Spanish-speaking family from Latin America living there (in Vic).

Catalonia IS a repressive state. It is a repressive state with particular antagonism against Spanish speakers.

This is not the Catalonia of the 'BEAUTIFUL' people they love to shine themselves onto the World.

I am guessing the history of the region means nothing to you.

www.nytimes.com/2012/10/03/opinion/a-new-call-for-catalonias-independence.html?_r=0

I am not going to indulge in moral relativism to justify repression.

And by the way, I had my fill with the history of the region while living as a resident.

Jose V. From WHERE do you get your information that the Catalans are suppressing Spanish from being spoken ANYWHERE in Catalunya?

Please cite the URL or documents where you obtained this information so I can see it for myself (and please do just cite the "Tapas/Tapes" propaganda) - it certainly wasn't my experience while I was there before moving back to Cadiz.

I lived there (see below). I was also back there on vacation 3 years ago. I can assure you the younger people refused to speak Spanish, only Catalan which is nuts to the rest of the world. Fortunately the younger people all spoke English and the older folks still spoke Spanish when no one was looking.

Do a search! ... talk to ordinary people or even business people who have tangled with linguistic-added trade barriers with Catalonia (as I have done) ... follow the daily Spanish press on suppressions of parents to educate their children in Spanish, of even theaters to show movies in Spanish, etc. ... visit the region! and talk to the Spanish speakers! and particular the immigrants ... I don't know what else I can advice you.

Jose V.

Let me put it to you this way ... someone always has a pimple and how odd it is that those who complain the most abut it are the former aggressors when the tide turns.

You are in desperation! ... What 'former aggressors' are you talking about?? I, my family, are ALL originally from Venezuela, several generations!, immigrants first to Spain, and then me to the U.S. ... look I've got to go enjoy Thanksgiving.

Happy Thanksgiving!

The 'original' peoples of Venezuela might argue that point with you and there was no Thanksgiving for them. History is cruel but when a people have a chance to survive as a culture my dream is their dream. Bitch all you want, the Spanish culture will survive without Catalonia.

I get what blackcatwhitecat is saying. I do think that to a certain point an geographic area with separate cultural and language history should be able to do things to promote and defend that. I have a daughter that was born in Quebec, we are a mostly English family. There have been a number of laws and what not passed in Quebec to encourage French and discourage the use of English, but generally both are learned with in Quebec.

Is it annoying to have someone marginalize your mother language? Yes, it is, especially when your mother language is English and is widely excepted to be a common business language. Case in point. I once stood in line at a local Provigo ( food store ). The cashier was french and the person in front of me was Spanish. The cashier spoke to the man in french and the man transitioned to English and so did the cashier. BAM! English became the common and indeed in some areas is simply called speaking common.

Though I find it annoying that french speakers sometimes take promotion of French to far, i am all for them keeping their heritage alive and keeping those things uniquely French in Quebec. I have never really thought of those actions as repressive, just reactionary. I think the same applies to the region in this story.

Northeast corner of Spain bordering France on the Mediterranean Sea. Major city is Barcelona of 1992 Olympics fame.

And this is why the world thinks Americans are arrogant morons.

Benet

And this is why the world thinks Americans are arrogant morons.

----------------------------------------

That sentiment is exactly why an increasing number of American's don't want to have anything to do with the rest of the world. Ill be happy when we cut most of the world out of our politics. It is time for the world to fend for it's self. No help for natural disasters, no subsidizing other countries, none of that.

I don't think Catalonia will successfully secede from Spain (but you never know,people can act against their own interests). I can't see Spain letting that happen without war. For hundreds of years Spain has opposed the breakaway of any part of the Spanish State. A large part of the Spanish Civil War was fought preventing Catalonia from being independent.And even a Liberal Spanish Government wouldn't dare agree to it.You could see a new Civil War with a right-wing resurgence fighting to keep Spain united.

Then there is France to consider. France has a Catalan speaking region in the southeast,and would not want to see them tempted to try and join their Catalan brothers. Not to mention the affect there would be on the Basque regions of both Spain and France if the Catalans got Independence.So at the least,Spain would have France's support in and out of the EU to prevent a breakaway.

Next,there is the EU itself. Not counting Spain and France there are regional movements in other countries wanting to form independent states. Bavaria in Germany,the Flemish in Belgium, Northern Italians in Italy,etc,etc,its a Pandora's Box. The EU would find itself in major trouble if they were to support a breakaway region that would be an example for the others . An Independent Catalonia,even if able to somehow breakaway would find itself isolated and doomed to a tragic existence.

Lastly,there is law itself. The large minorities in Catalonia,that would demand vigorous minority rights enforcement. And the King of Spain,while a largely symbolic position,is still King of Catalonia as part of Spain. Would the King,who worked so hard to see a democratic Spain come into being after the death of Franco. Just sit by,and let his life's work crumble.Would he instead,refuse to sign a breakaway agreement. And rally the whole Spanish nation to reject it.

Umm, have you seen the rest of Spain lately? The Catalonia region is one of the few regions keeping them economically relevant.

The regional president said:

"Catalonia has never in its history let Europe down, now we trust Europe will not let us down."

He's leading the move and rallying his people with the same past dream but he'll be wrong. The EU looks at Spain for what it is, a member. If the region secedes, they need to get in line like other European countries and that may take many years.

Sure the region is very wealthy and industrial but today's European market works with the Euro. They will suffer much more than their present burden with the rest of Spain.

All this euphoric moment will vanish soon and only the "beautiful dream" will remain. I can bet they'll stay in the Union.

A new "healthy" marriage ALWAYS requires consent. Something Spain and Catalonia lack:

The desire for complete independence from Spain might not be holistically rational, but if you are going to go for the marriage/divorce metaphor...

Fences are ugly

Agreed. Like some at my own neighborhood lol

Practically all regions of Spain at present, got as much independence as they wanted (other than total independence). They have a much more lose central government than the U.S.

In Catalonia as well as some other regions, is mostly a sense of pride. Most regions have a very distinct culture

How did this history escape your education?

The Basque independence move has largely subsided over the years. ETA really doesn't exist like it used to, though they do prefer keeping an autonomous state and preserving Euskal. I know when I was there in January and Feb, the big thing they wanted was for former ETA members in prison to be moved to prisons within the Basque Country. There are some people who still want to separate, but the willingness to do so in the past decade has subsided greatly.

Also, while you're likely to see cross-cultural dealings on border towns and cities, Catalonia doesn't extend into Southern France like the Basque Country does.

Funny that the two regions of the country keeping the Spanish economy alive want to separate from it. Part of me doesn't blame them.

Ranman: thanks!

Benet: how many americans do you think have ever even HEARD of Basque or know it's part of Spain/France? Or even find SPAIN on a freakin' map. Give me a break...

Answering the geography question: the Basque country shares only a small border with France. Catalonia makes up about half of the border between France and Spain, but the other half would still be there. Also, Catalunya del Nord is a Catalan Country which does lie within France. From what I understand they associate with Catalan culture and language more than French language or culture, much like their counterparts on the Spanish side of the border.

Last fall/early this year, ETA declared a permanent ceasefire. While what Ranman said could be true, from what I understand when ETA is no longer considered a terrorist group, some Basque political groups favoring more autonomy or independence will no longer be considered associating with a terrorist organization and can run for office and representation in the Spanish government, which was illegal for them before. While the separatist movement might be waning, their legal political ability to secede has substantially increased. This is based off what I remember my Spanish Culture class saying at the time of the announcement (sorry for a non-traceable source). You should be able to pull up January 2012 election results though for the Basque Country and see which parties won votes if you would like to investigate further.

@Mifo No I will not give you "a break". Americans want to police a world they neither know or understand. The very fact that our public school system has failed many Americans to the point that they do not know any country that does not have a major shopping center or oil field is repugnant. We talk about American exceptionalism, and I am trying very hard to see, besides war, what exactly we are exceptional at. If I tell someone in Barcelona, I am from Seattle, they know exactly where that is located. You want a break for being ill informed and still want to be allowed an opinion? interesting...