With all its flaws and frustrations, this makes me appreciate being an American citizen more every day. It's amazing the human species still exists...

Intelligent & Independent,

We can't take our freedoms for granted. There are always those amongst us who seek personal power at the expense of other's freedoms. Some good quotes on the subject:

"The greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name
of the noblest causes." -- Thomas Paine

"Freedom is never an achieved state; like electricity, we've got to keep
generating it or the lights go out." -- Wayne
LaPierre

"The attempt to make
heaven on earth invariably produces hell." -- Karl Popper

"Free government is founded in jealousy, not
confidence. It is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited
constitutions, to bind those we are obliged to trust with power.... In questions
of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in men, but bind him down
from mischief by the chains of the Constitution." -- Thomas Jefferson, 1799

http://freedomkeys.com/vigil.htm

Mary Jones-1616541

If it's not the unions here, It's the goverment there. Beem me up Scotty. There is no intelegent life form on this planet.

At least none capable of using a spell checker.

Islam does believe in Democracy (only for clerics) and protesting (Pro-Islamic only).

those who can remember Iran, after the Shah left; same thing over again; Islam does not want, does not believe, is hostile to any democracy, it will not tolerate any opinion that does not have it's roots in the Koran; the entire middle east is belong taken over by the radical Islam; and we are arming them, giving them foreign aid, and not opposing their march to bring down anything western, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or secular, we are looking at 100 years of all out war, wake up America, they are coming here at the rate of 100 thousand a year; look at all the country's that first welcomed them,France, England,Germany Netherlands, Denmark, when are we going to wake up, it may already be to late.

@Mary Jones-1616541

If it's not the unions here, It's the goverment there. Beem me up Scotty. There is no intelegent life form on this planet.

Unions are not responsible for creating dictatorships and it's not Egypt's government that is the problem either. It is a belief that religion should be intermingled with politics. History is replete with examples of that not working out so well.

By the way, it's "Beam me up...", not "Beem me up...", but you are proof that there is an intelligence problem on this planet.

This is Obama's Egypt.

It's About Time, to compare a "religion" that puts people on their knees 5 times a day, 7 days a week, and who keeps females as second tier citizens, to any other religion is pathetic. Islam is a cult, Christianity is a belief system, totally different. And no I'm not a Christian, I don't believe in God at all. And please don't pull out "the Crusades", stay in this century please. Kooks in Christianity sure, kooks within Islam, they are EVERYWHERE, and are the leadership of that so-called religion. Comparing the two is like comparing a mole hill to Mt. Everest. Your analogy is pathetic.

"The Muslim Brotherhood is determined to go ahead with its own plans regardless of everybody else. There is no compromise on the horizon,"

Well, that should sound familiar to every American these days.

this is what the rich want for our country.the crap happening in egypt isnt about a religious uprising.its about staggering spirit crushing poverty.the muslim brotherhood is telling people what they want to hear.with huge economic disparty between the rich and the poor you ALWAYS get political instability.when tax rates are high on the rich and tariffs tax cheaper foreign made products theres no reason to outsourcing manufacturing.they dont make anymore money.we must end free trade or whats happening in egypt will happen here

Perhaps those who are so respondent about islam and the 'muslim' brotherhood.. should remember what one of OUR OWN founding fathers had to say about religion.

“Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.” ― Thomas Jefferson

Oh wait, the far christian right doesn't believe this...keeping religion out of our government means they are being threatened

Rocky, get a life... This is EGYPT'S Egypt. THEY created the problem. THEY somehow failed to see the Brotherhood was going to take over. THEY elected the current President. So move on from the election and come up with some new ideas....

Morsi and his Muslim Blood Hounds are extremist Sunni Islamists. They tear everything to pieces. Democracy, constitution are big words for them.

"The Supreme Constitutional Court said it would not convene until its judges could operate without "psychological and material pressure," saying protesters had stopped the judges from reaching the building."

Opponents of Morsi and his MB, should not permit them to get foothold.

PROTEST and KICK THEM ALL OUT WITHOUT EXCEPTIONS. NO HELP FROM US AND ALLIES TO THESE DANGEROUS SUNNI NAZIS.

I don't see any difference between Islam and Christianity. They're both cults, one a cult of Jesus, the other a cult of Muhammad. Same difference, one is just much older.

Any religion mixed into politics is crud. We learned that a while ago, but the Middle East isn't there yet.

AG99

Exactly. The western world (after many centuries of hard learning) finally learned to keep religion out of politics.

Another one of our founding fathers got it..

“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.”
― James Madison

Oh wait, the far christian right doesn't believe this...keeping religion out of our government means they are being threatened

Aside from your personal point of view of your adult version of the monster-in-the-closet you describe as "the far right"; can you give us a specific name of someone who is calling for the institutionalizing of religion in the U.S.? I have heard no such calls from anyone.

Look up Dominionism, Simple Theory.

Oh, and as to your "Christianity is a philosophy. Islam is a cult," comment: No. They are both religions.

Space Captain

Intelligent & Independent,

We can't take our freedoms for granted. There are always those amongst us who seek personal power at the expense of other's freedoms. Some good quotes on the subject:

"The greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name
of the noblest causes." -- Thomas Paine

"Freedom is never an achieved state; like electricity, we've got to keep
generating it or the lights go out." -- Wayne
LaPierre

"The attempt to make
heaven on earth invariably produces hell." -- Karl Popper

....... "There will never be peace on earth as long as mankind clings to religion" -- Chuck Koepke (me)

obamas comment on Fridays were astounding."Egypt is discovering their rights" For a guy thats been accused of being a muslem, obama has really no clue what Islam endoctrination of the hadith and sharia laws are about. to incorporate shia in a constitution is against human rights. why would obama endorse such a thing? americains are really clueless.. they are endangering the planet by letting islamic country grow in numbers. in egypts constitution it will be illegal to say there is no god and @!$%# all prphets , or even insult a human being, surely the culprits will go to jail and have death sentence. wake up obama

John Hunt,

Please, the election is over you can now stop the lies of the Left. How can you realistically compare Muslim Brotherhood to The Tea Party movement.

I agree with you Simple Theory. The Progressive Left is far more active in forcing their visions, beliefs and values on the rest of society when compared to the far Christian right.

There are two thoughts common to all religion. There is a dimension invisible to mortal man. Man is not the most powerful being in the universe. Everything else is for the purpose of keeping people ignorant.afraid, and under control.Kinda like the government.

All you people who say we shouldn't let this happen, that Islam should be stamped out wherever it pops up, what do you think we should do? Invade all these countries? Declare open season on any Muslim?

We could withhold aid, I suppose, but that wouldn't change anything except to make them even more extremist. We could impose sanctions, but as we don't buy much from Middle Eastern countries anyway, that's not going to do much either.

So what exactly do all you geniuses want to do about the rise of Islam in the world?

"The judges said that they had been intimidated when they tried to get to the court on Sunday morning."

hahahah...only the beginning...pretty soon the headline will be "Judges Killed By Protesters"

Arab spring my arse...

"....... "There will never be peace on earth as long as mankind clings to religion" -- Chuck Koepke (me)"

ya , and non-religeous (anti) is better , I wonder if the 15 million that Mao killed or the UNTOLD millions that Stalin killed or died from his reign would agree with you , I doubt it. Religion isn't the problem , the problem is man's innate ability to act a fool.

All non Muslims including atheists, minority Muslim sects like Shiites, Muslim females and others should join hands and battle the seventh century Sunni Saudi Salaffi and Wahhabi, haters and killers and their fronts.

Going to war with and bombing, invading and occupying every single damn country whose people, religion, government, lifestyle, trading practices or whatever the f*ck else we don't like is not a realistic option.

Best we can do is to seal up our borders, keep our nose where it belongs- on our OWN damn matters here at home, stop all immigration of people from these ratholes, pull out of the Middle East entirely and let them settle their own differences themselves and drop a couple of nice strategic nukes if they even attempt to attack us or get any cute ideas.

There. Problem solved.

ya , and non-religeous (anti) is better , I wonder if the 15 million that Mao killed or the UNTOLD millions that Stalin killed or died from his reign would agree with you , I doubt it

Religious murderers and whack-jobs, atheist murderers and whack jobs, they're all the same. When it comes to atrocities in history, there's plenty o' blame to go around, isn't it????

I wouldn't plan on any trips to Egypt to visit the pyramids any time soon- probably never once the Islam radicals take over everything there

Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood hope to end the crisis by passing the new constitution that that was wrapped up on Friday. Morsi received the constitution on Saturday and immediately called a Dec. 15 referendum, urging all Egyptians to go out and vote.

A Dictator would not call for a referendum.. You people are so angry over one sided information that you have been spoon-fed that you can't even read and comprehend.. Yeah, America has a bad problem; its citizens.. Now, bash me and my comment, even collapse it because that's all you have; ANGER. Good luck with that.

Pretty interesting.

The U.S. is supposed to be the beacon of liberty and enlightenment and Egypt the home of Islamic fundamentalism and a long recent history of dictatorship and yet millions of Egyptians pour into the streets and risk being jailed or shot in order to have democracy and the rule of law.

Can you imagine what would happen if either a Democratic or Republican president in the U.S. tried to grab absolute power like Morsi did?

Maybe a few hundred people would march some place or other and if we're lucky they'd do thirty seconds of coverage on it on CNN etc.

The only thing americans turn out for any more in numbers and with the kind of dedication shown by the Egyptians is when the newest Iphone comes out or Black Friday at Walmart.

We're spoiled, and have been turned into a bunch of brainwashed, slobbering, consumer zombies by the corporate media.

this must be the egypt obamas nobel peace prize was based on. funny how obama never ever ever mentions his award as well as anyone else.

We're spoiled, and have been turned into a bunch of brainwashed, slobbering, consumer zombies by the corporate media.

True, but it's the same Zionist media that wants desperately for the US to get into war with Syria and Iran. And since these elitists know that no one, not even the brain dead in America is buying their "it's in OUR best interests to fight these wars" garbage anymore, they're resorting to back handed tactics- lobbying those in Congress to come to the aid of those "poor oppressed little darlings in these Mid East countries." And you see, that's how illegal and unconstitutional wars start.

Case in point: did you know that the White house is contemplating ........ ahem...........increasing......excuse me.......our involvement in Syrias civil war and setting up a no fly zone and installing Patriot Missiles for the Free Syrian Terrorists over there? Notice that NOT ONE effing major news agency or network- NOT this one, NOT CNN, NOT FOX, NOT EVEN ABC OR CBS-is mentioning this? Think there's a reason for that??? HMMMMMMM????

Yeah those Egyptians are smart. They staged a revolution in hopes of democracy, and voted into power another islamic virus carrier, and now they have the freedom to do whatever the new dictator says. Brilliant Egyptians. I say if you follow the rules of a book written about a murderer of innocents, a thief, a liar, a rapist of children, and an evil satan serving egotist, you have nothing to contribute to a civilized society and have my permission to end yourself. If this diseased filth is what these people call a prophet, why do we even give a crap about what happens to them? Let the virus carriers kill each other so the rest of humanity can have some peace.

.

What it will boil down to is economics. Loans from the US or IMF, stock prices for Egyptian companies, the ability to pay back loans, a living wage for Egyptian laborers, etc., and a court system functioning well enough to make the rulings, and enforcement to validate the international demands for commerce. I am quite favorable to the idea of putting restrictions on Egypt in the way of loans and aid, until their Constitution shows that investments into that country aren't at the payback whims of religion based edicts. There is no future for anyone with a heart for human welfare to see certain groups starved out, in favor of a particular religious standing, so other groups can be starved out at a later date. We might as well get to the dreary business of making all political groups hungry now, so they all understand they have a common stake of bettering their future. Restrict western food aid, financial aid, and medical aid to Egypt. If they so desire to live in the age of Mohamed, while the surrounding world lives in the 21st Century, this is as good a time to start this lesson as any. It will show the rest of the world that the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't have a well thought out plan, and the end result will be the Muslim Brotherhood fighting with the Muslim Brotherhood.

Dave-2478570

My opinion is, that the individuals that instigated, inspired and managed the revolution via their technological prowess had it hijacked by The Muslim Brotherhood. I can only hope those same revolutionaries are capable to inspire the populace to defeat this referendum. And I hope that the Muslim Brotherhood will allow fair voting. I'm skeptical!

AG99 writes:

I don't see any difference between Islam and Christianity. They're both cults, one a cult of Jesus, the other a cult of Muhammad.

As an atheist myself I would say that you are essentially on the mark there. However, go one step further and you will discover exactly why Islam is much more of a threat to human rights and civilized relations between people than Christianity is.

Just look at the example that Jesus and Muhammad provided for their religion and followers. Jesus was overwhelmingly about humility, peace, and forgiveness. Muhammad was about some of that -- pretty much for Muslims only -- but he was also very much about eliminating dissent (he had two poets killed who wrote satire about him; Abu Afak and Asma Bint Marwan), brutally crushing anyone perceived to be in opposition to him (Google about the slaughtered Banu Qurayza), and leading armies of conquest against innocent people in other lands who knew nothing about Islam or Muhammad and preferred to keep it that way (or they soon would learn the dire consequences of not submitting). Not to mention Muhammad's deplorable personal behavior and conduct that I won't even go into in.

I'm expecting the usual retorts: Christians kill too, Christians conquered other people too, Christianity is intolerant too. But that's beside the point. None of it was from Jesus' example. In fact, most of it was explicitly against Jesus' words and example. Whereas much of the intolerance, violence, and brutality that is witnessed all across the Muslim world today, and throughout Islamic history, was/is NOT out-of-line with Muhammad's intolerant, bloody example and words.

Muhammad was even said, in one highly "authentic" hadith, to have commanded "Anyone Who Changes His Religion (meaning away from Islam), Kill Him." Because of that recorded command, and only because of that recorded command, wavering Muslims and former Muslims throughout Islamic history have been murdered simply for wanting to/or actually following their heart/conscience and choosing a path other than Islam in life.

Of course not all Christians live up to the high standard set by Jesus, and not all Muslims live down to the low standard set by Muhammad, but it does help to explain why so many more Muslims than Christians behave in brutal and violent ways; their prophet Muhammad set "the most perfect" example for them.

The Muslim Brotherhood created Hamas and sat in waiting in Egypt for its chance to gain power through politics. Iran has been backing Hamas but has had difficulty arming them with Israel's blockade. Now Morsi as the "legitimate" head of Egypt brokers a deal between Hamas, his bothers, and the Israelis. Iran has stated they want to end Israel. Hamas has been trying to end Israel. Egypt is now run by the Muslim Brotherhood which wants to end Israel. Meanwhile our fearless leader has vistited just about every country in the Middle East except Israel. Morsi's power base has been strengthened with his resolutions. Given these facts, what conclusions can be drawn?

As to Christianity and Islam, both are religions, but quite different. Jesus and Mohammad are different. In Christianity, the way to heaven is through forgiveness. In Islam, if you kill infidels, non believers and Jews you get to heaven where your 72 virgins await. I would say there are major differences between the 2 religions.

Why were there not tanks protecting the judges like the rest of the government buildings, so they could get to work? What government allows its citizens to threaten government employees? If the crowd gathered there over the night they should have know about it. They could have sent tanks, troops, etc., but Morsi the moron decided not to since it was in his and the M.B. best interests and NOT THAT OF THE PEOPLE. Sounds pretty one sided and like a dictatorship to me.

It was bad enough that Mubarak was selling oil to Israel for a 1/3 of its market value to "keep the peace", but at least there was tourism. Now Egypt will become a chit hole of a country that no one will want to come visit. I really want to come visit a country in which I might get beaten up, killed, imprisoned all because some human decided they wanted my money, did not like the way that I look, talk, act, smell, etc. and they the only thing they have to do is say I blasphemed Allah, Muhammad, The Koran, etc.? To think that your people would not do something like that is STUPID when it happens in most other Muslim countries. How many women do you think will want to come visit Egypt now morons? The economy of Egypt will suffer even more and so will its people all thanks to the M.B. and Morsi the moron.

YOU CANNOT FAVOR ONE RELIGION OVER ANOTHER AND STILL HAVE A DEMOCRACY. YOU ARE DOOMED TO FAILURE. This was your chance to do something different, but you morons are repeating the same mistakes over and over again. Much like Israel, Palestine, Syria, etc. I feel for the citizens of Egypt.

@Simple Theory "Aside from your personal point of view of your adult version of the monster-in-the-closet you describe as "the far right"; can you give us a specific name of someone who is calling for the institutionalizing of religion in the U.S.? I have heard no such calls from anyone."

What did both parties have in their national conventions? God. What did the Democratic party try to take out of the program and were forced to put it back in this year? GOD. No senator or representative has ever talked about prayer in schools now have they? They have never talked about the "sanctity" of marriage? They have never talked about how gay people are an abomination unto God or that gay marriage is not what God intended? What about "in God we trust" on our money, how long has it been there, and who put it there? Guess it just showed up all on its own huh? If it did not cost them potential votes there would be many more of them calling for the complete institutionalizing of religion in the U.S. instead of these pieces parts, since that is what they believe in. The founding fathers knew better because of what they had to endure/go through.

Mark B-2446613

The article is about the Islamist take-over in Egypt not about your opinion of Christianity. Be Muslim if you like, but to enshrine a religion into a constitution is a modern world taboo. There is no reference to Christianity or any other religion in the Constitution or bill of rights.

In Egypt they've enshrined the Koran as integral to their constitution. The Koran and Hadith are full of imperatives to condemn, attack, kill, terrorize, subjugate, plunder, enslave or tax the unbeliever. How many more Muhammad Atta's will emerge.

Your comparison is pointless, and completely unrelated to the subject of the article.

AG's quote "I don't see any difference between Islam and Christianity. They're both cults, one a cult of Jesus, the other a cult of Muhammad. Same difference, one is just much older"

Then your delusional. Christians, of which I am not, I'm an atheist, can still be Christians without regard to worship. In Islam that is not possible, you must "submit" to the "will" of Islam. In Christianity you can be "saved" but never enter a church. Thank you Martin Luther, for making that difference, giving Christians freedom from all being Catholic. In other words "salvation" comes from within in Christainity, not through a church. Try telling that to a Muslim Cleric, AG. Off with your head pal.

it's not religion that is the issue, pick up mirror and you will see the issue. Russia was the "great" experiment of a no religion state, how did that work out??????????

Lawlessness will reign, and even then we will make up reasons why a secular solutions doesn't work as well.

As for me an my house, we will serve the Lord.

@ Acosmet; To some extent I agree with your comment and hope a fair vote and cooler heads will prevail.

AG@1.20

I can't see the difference between Obama & Morsi!!!!!

@Atlas shrugging;

Russia was the "great" experiment of a no religion state, how did that work out??????????

China is a non-religious state, and look how well that's working!

Your right "it's not religion that is the issue" in the case you referred to, but values! And religions don't denote good values, just check world/religious history!

Don't stress, all religions fizzle with time.

Think about it, when was Christianity the strongest? Wouldn't that have been the days of burning at the stake, the inquisition and witch hunts? Shoot, they hardly slaughter anyone these days, wimps.

Give islam a few hundred years, the women will be wearing the turbans and the males will be liberals.

I suspect that religion is evolutionary.

AG99

I don't see any difference between Islam and Christianity. They're both cults, one a cult of Jesus, the other a cult of Muhammad. Same difference, one is just much older.

I do see a big difference between the 2 religions, eventho both are "beliefs" rather then "facts". Just look at Jesus' life and compare to Muhammad's, you will see the difference between the 2 prophets (or the Savior and Prophet, depending on a person's belief/faith). Jesus was about love and compassion, Muhammad not so much.

But there is good people who are believers of either religion, and not all Muslims are Islamists.

Anna

You are correct. Muhammad was a murderer, pedophile, liar and plunderer. It's all in the Hadith. He killed innocents in the name of his religion. He told his followers to kill to assure their place in heaven. He was an awful lot like today's Islamist radicals.

Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.” ― Thomas Jefferson

Oh wait, the far christian right doesn't believe this...keeping religion out of our government means they are being threatened

It's about time: It's funny how atheists like to bring up Thomas Jefferson AS IF he was the ONLY founding Father. Do you not remember what our OTHER FOUNDING FATHER'S SAID?

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.” — Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.”— Patrick Henry

AG and itsabouttime - You just so don't get it, do you? Let's for a moment leave out the kooks, fringe elements and jacka$$es in both parties. We live in a secular democratic republic. That means that everyone has the right to engage in the political process and attempt to influence their elected officials, through legal means, to pass laws consistent with that person's or group's views. Whether those views are informed by religious upbringing, scientific inquiry or a belief in the pronouncements of tea leaves is irrelevant. You have no right be attempt to bar my views from consideration in the public square because those views are informed by my religious faith tradition than I do to bar someone's views because they are informed by moral relativism or atheism.

This is a secular democratic republic of all of the people, not just those who agree with you.

If you review history with an unbiased eye you will realize that the times we (civilization) get into trouble with religion is when we mix religion with the power of government. We do not suffer any great harm because there are people in the public square voicing opinions formed by religious thought.

And AG - there is nothing we (western civilization, christians - whoever "we" are as opposed to "them") can do about the rise of Islam. Just as the violent excesses of the Catholic Church were ended (largely) by the rise of more moderate factions with the Church; the only way the violent excesses of radical Islam will be ended is by more moderate factions exerting influence with their religion.

Just as the violent excesses of the Catholic Church were ended (largely) by the rise of more moderate factions with the Church; the only way the violent excesses of radical Islam will be ended is by more moderate factions exerting influence with their religion.

JoeMike: Actually when you look at the violent excesses of the Catholic Church, none of that was biblically based. They chose to act on what they felt was right rather than what the bible claims.

When you look at islamists, however, the way they act now IS BASED upon their Quran.

See the difference? I wouldn't compare the two.

Oh and by the way, secularism has its faults too...... or haven't you ever heard of communism?

" ... Christianity is a philosophy. Islam is a cult. ... "

Only if you belong to the cult. Many in Islam see Christianity as a cult. And Islam as the philosophy. So who is correct?

As a person on the outside of both. I see them both as such. And I see very little difference in them at all.

Both preach one thing. And practice another.

Both depend on fear to keep people in line. And promise great gifts/benefits to those that toe the line. Heaven and Hell for example.

Both depend on the cult of personality. Jesus and Muhammad.

Both depend on the fear of mortality. That there must be something AFTER this life.

Religion, any religion is by definition a cult. Period.

Am I an atheist? I don't believe in religion. Does that make me an atheist? To many/most, most likely. Do I believe in God? Well, to be honest, that's none of you damned business. That's between me, if I believe in God, and God. Just as yours is none of mine.

But stop knocking on my door, literally, and trying to sell me your version. I don't knock on yours and try to sell you mine. I don't have a bumper sticker on my car throwing it in your face. I don't hang it on a sign in public, or even one in my yard. I don't bring it into your work place or your school. My beliefs belong to me. Yours belong to you. Keep them, I don't want/need them.

Which is a cult and which is a philosophy? If you ask that question, then yours IS. If you think that someone else's is, then yours is. If you think that they belong to a cult, then you do.

A cult is a cult. And religion, it's self, IS A CULT!

" ... We passed a healthcare law that half the country or more never approved. ... "

The feces of the male bovine! Better known as BULL@!$%#!

the muslim brotherhood, founded in egypt in 1928, remains an illegal organization and may not be recognized as a political party (current egyptian law prohibits the formation of political parties based on religion). these boys in the hood's efforts to write a constitution is to approve sharia laws as the basis of civil and criminal law punishment, making islam the official religion of the republic of egypt. may not only the constitution be spewed rejected disfavored, but may the individuals in the muslim brotherhood be banned from taking part in a new democratic party free of shia laws and muhamedian culture , these words be replaced in constitution by freedom justice and liberties instead of god. because muslems are too confused and uneducated about islam.shia laws are not words of god.

" ... calling for the institutionalizing of religion in the U.S.? I have heard no such calls from anyone. ... "

Huh. Could that be because you have your head so far up you arse that you can't hear it? Or that your ears are still full of crap from having it planted up it?

Or just maybe just because you don't want to hear it. Because you agree with it.

Never heard ANYONE say that the Constitution is based on the Bible?

You need to have your hearing checked. Or to close your Bible and to start paying more attention to what is going on around you.

" ... Jesus was overwhelmingly about humility, peace, and forgiveness. ... "

He was also a progressive and a socialist.

To bad his followers don't believe the same, and follow his example.

But a cult is a cult. And Christianity is a cult. The cult of Jesus.

To bad he would be ashamed of it.

sharia laws are based on the hadith and the qran altjhouigh the hadith is much more severe in punishment. per example, if you have been unfaithful your wife can report you, if there are foru male witness you could be stoned to death as per the qran, 100 lashes. either way death seems sure. if you are gay, then stoned to death. a constitution canot be formed in todays age, with sharia laws that are againts human rights. before nato adn united nation existed, noone has the eye out for constitutions that didnt represent the entire population.

"The Muslim Brotherhood is determined to go ahead with its own plans regardless of everybody else. There is no compromise on the horizon," said Hassan Nafaa, a professor of political science at Cairo University.

Souncs EXACTLY like the Obama administration.

Progressive agenda for the Fiscal Cliff: LET AMERICA GO OVER THE CLIFF.

George from Wa. State.....spoken like a true Progressive and "Peppermint Patty" surrogate. Funny, you didn't mention taken CHRISTMAS out of CHRISTMAS. Shucks, you took time out of shopping in Bellevue to post a comment.

All the common sense in the world is not as effective as a 2X4 up against your head!

@ AG99 #1.30

All you people who say we shouldn't let this happen, that Islam should be stamped out wherever it pops up, what do you think we should do? Invade all these countries? Declare open season on any Muslim?

We could withhold aid, I suppose, but that wouldn't change anything except to make them even more extremist. We could impose sanctions, but as we don't buy much from Middle Eastern countries anyway, that's not going to do much either.

So what exactly do all you geniuses want to do about the rise of Islam in the world?

Well. let's see, 1938 Neville Chamberlain "negotiated" a peace with Hitler through appeasement. Shortly thereafter WWII broke out. Followed by the "Cold War" which was only cold because America learned a lesson about how to deal with Tyrants and dictators. Also, we had 'MAD', the Soviets knew if they stepped too far out of line, there would be consequences. A simple notion known as "Peace through Strength" and the world was relatively peaceful for a while. (Remember the Communists kept probing for weaknesses in our will to defend against them, i.e. Korea, Vietnam, and Afghanistan, until they collapsed in the '90's)

Followed shortly by punk in Iraq who decided to test the waters again, and we had to go beat him down. Evidently the Muslims have a short memory, or Clinton gave them the impression we were no longer willing to defend our freedoms, and the Taliban and Al Qaeda sought to test the waters again. We had to go beat them down.

So, based on this history, what solutions do you think are viable? Leave them alone, as the 'Allies' did with Germany, or as America did with Afghanistan following the retreat of the Soviets? Sooner or later they will bring their war to us. Or do you think these peace loving people will change their attitude towards us?

Personally, since we seem to have a huge population of feral hogs in this country, I would threaten the Muslims with a retaliation of 'Pig' bombs, if they step out of line. I wonder how they would respond to wild hogs running amok in the Holy land?

George from WA State quoted me as follows:

" ... Jesus was overwhelmingly about humility, peace, and forgiveness. ... "

And then commented:

He was also a progressive and a socialist.
To bad his followers don't believe the same, and follow his example.
But a cult is a cult. And Christianity is a cult. The cult of Jesus.
To bad he would be ashamed of it.

Well, since you quoted me [from Post 1.44], I'll comment a bit more.
You added "progressive and a socialist" to the list of Jesus' agenda, and I see that I should have included "Love" as well to the short list of qualities that I mentioned.

Of course you are correct that oftentimes (you might say most of the time) Christians don't come close to Jesus' high standard, which is a point that i also made in that post. I also think that most Christians would probably agree with that, acknowledging that they are only human, flawed (like all people), and often fall short of the lofty standards set by Jesus.

With Islam it's a different story. Again there is a driving figure, this time it's Muhammad. Unlike Jesus, Muhammad often exhibited behavior that was anything but "Christ-like," and his Islam was born of his warring ambitions as I describe in Post 1.44 Muhammad seemed to start out trying to emulate Jesus and Christianity but with an Arab twist. However, as time went on he became more and more dictatorial and violent. Eventually he brought all the people and tribes of the Arabian Peninsula under his control through armed force. Plus he killed people by his own hand. Did he also have a loving side? Perhaps, yes, but it was reserved for Islam and Muslims only (esp. in the later part of his career). The following passage from the Qur'an reveals this approach which is more-or-less Islam's Golden Rule: Quran (48:29) "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. Those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Unfortunately I have to go before finishing this post, but you get the idea. I summed it up even better in Post 1.44 Islam and Christianity may well both be "cults," as you accuse, but they are most definitely not the same, and I would argue (again, as a small "a" atheist myself) that Islam is morally inferior to Christianity, and definitely more dangerous, exactly because so many Muslims seek to immitate and live like Muhammad.

One wanders to the left, another to the right. Both are equally in error, but, are seduced by different delusions. ~Horace

Just a little breath of "Arab Spring" Democracy & Freedom that Bumbling Barry & Billary let loose upon the World!

Now that Obama has "Joined Forces" with Al Qaeda (what's a murdered Ambassador or two in "Libya" among friends) letting the Islamic brotherhood "Rule" Egypt is just the "Natural" course of events!

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/12/01/US-official-signals-end-to-war-against-Al-Qaeda

Everyone "knows" it is just another "Excuse" to "Spy" on US all anyway......

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/dia-to-send-hundreds-more-spies-overseas/2012/12/01/97463e4e-399b-11e2-b01f-5f55b193f58f_story.html

And yet just "Yesterday" NBC was claiming those "Wacky Counter "Hero's" Anonymous had taken up the cause.....http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/technolog/anonymous-declares-internet-war-syria-1C7350148

And less than a "Day" latter......Intelligence Asset Anonymous Declares Cyber War on Syria

http://www.infowars.com/intelligence-asset-anonymous-declares-cyber-war-on-syria/

Next it will be "Wikileaks" Supports Obama......

Yet here is the Main Stain Media once again, spewing forth even more "Terrorizing" of America with their Mega Corporate Supporting Propaganda & Disinformation for Wall Streets Banksters Benefit, Fun & Profits!

http://www.infowars.com/henry-paulson-confronted-on-threatening-congress-with-martial-law/

Speaking of Wall Streets "Terrorizing of America' Watch this new PBS Documentary.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l-8PFk8j5I

And watch General Wesley Clark playing "Connect the Dots"....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw&feature=g-all-f

And here is President Eisenhower warning US against "Them"......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

In 2012 if your still do not know the "Truth" about the COUP in 2001 by Wall Street and its Corrupt Political Minions like Bush & Obama....That is because YOU CHOOSE NOT TOO!

"To Dissolve the Unholy Alliance Between Corrupt Business and Corrupt Politics is the First Task"~Theodore Roosevelt

Oh so true, Darde! You hit it right on the head.

Since the beginning of time, no creature has had the distinction of causing its own extinction, humanity will not be an exception.

Unhappy, Thanks, you make a fair point. I think though that the comparison is that the violent histories/actions of both religions are based upon strict, fundamentalist (read literal) and radical interpretations of either the Bible or the Quran. When forces within the Catholic Church subscribing to a less literal interpretation came to dominate the Church, the violence began to wane. The same thing has to happen in Islam.

All these people who want to compare Jesus to Mohamed clearly have an agenda, after all I noticed they all fail to mention that the main information we have about Jesus’s life come from the Bible (which is actually a collection of documents) which may I remind you was compiled by a committee 200 years after his death by people whose agenda was to promote their new religion. Needless to say they are not going to be too critical of him, and given the lapse in time we have no idea how much was fact and how much is made up. Likewise we do have evidence that Jesus wasn’t as meek as Christians make him out to be after all in the Bible we have accounts of him using force to drive the money launders from the temple (something Christians overlook) not to mention we have documents such as the Dead Sea Scrolls (which many Christians claim are fake) that have been dated to be contemporary with the time of Jesus and reveal him saying that he has come to bring war and turn father against son all in the name of god. My overall point is to compare the two leaders is at best unfair as we do not know enough about Jesus and from the sources we have it doesn’t offer much in the way of credibility.

Finally I would also like to point out (which again is something most people miss) is that unlike Jesus, Mohammed was a politician/leader of his day, which means just like every other leader of his day he was also a warrior and in that regard what does separate Mohammed from his contemporaries was the level of mercy and compassion he showed to defeated people not the level of savagery as that was pretty much the norm for those time.

Also for those who continue to say that Egypt adopting the Koran as a state religion is bad, I must point out that most European countries have an official state religion, in my country(the UK) we have the Church of England whereas in France the national religion is Catholicism. Both countries are successful democracies and have pretty good human rights records. Oh and I find it also very Ironic as to quote Richard Dawkins “the states in the western world that have no official separation of church and state are become more secular. The state in the western world that does have an official separation of church and state is becoming more fundamentalist” score one for the Bible belt eh? lol

All these people who want to compare Jesus to Mohamed clearly have an agenda,

Los, please stop pretending that you have any less of an agenda than anyone else here.

...after all I noticed they all fail to mention that the main information we have about Jesus's life come from the Bible (which is actually a collection of documents) which may I remind you was compiled by a committee 200 years after his death by people whose agenda was to promote their new religion.

Everything I've ever read says just the opposite; i.e. that historians know a lot more about Jesus than they do about Muhammad, from a variety of sources.

In the case of Muhammad, some people argue that he might not have existed at all, but was instead a myth concocted to unify Arab tribes and project influence and might far beyond the Arabian Peninsula. I personally don't buy that, but if it's true than they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. But back to Jesus we go:

Needless to say they are not going to be too critical of him, and given the lapse in time we have no idea how much was fact and how much is made up.

Why would Jesus' biographers be any more or less critical of him than Muhammad's biographers were of Muhammad? It seems that they all had the same mission, yes? Both were "written up" by true believers well after they had died.

Likewise we do have evidence that Jesus wasn't as meek as Christians make him out to be after all in the Bible we have accounts of him using force to drive the money launders from the temple...

Do we have any accounts of Jesus personally killing anyone? No. Well they abound in the biographies of Muhammad.

...not to mention we have documents such as the Dead Sea Scrolls (which many Christians claim are fake) that have been dated to be contemporary with the time of Jesus and reveal him saying that he has come to bring war and turn father against son all in the name of god.

I'll have to look into the dead sea scrolls since I know nothing about them. Is there anything in there about Jesus killing anyone himself?

My overall point is to compare the two leaders is at best unfair as we do not know enough about Jesus and from the sources we have it doesn't offer much in the way of credibility.

Again, you are mistaken if you think that historians know less about Jesus than they do about Muhammad. Quite the opposite. I will try to get some quotes on the topic when I have a chance.

Finally I would also like to point out (which again is something most people miss) is that unlike Jesus, Mohammed was a politician/leader of his day

By his own choice.

...which means just like every other leader of his day he was also a warrior

No, that does not follow. The most powerful tribes of that time were involved in TRADE, not warfare. You've bought into one of the towering myths of the foundation of Islam which is that before Muhammad arrived on the scene, the Arabian Peninsula was a seething cauldron of incessant war and strife. I call bull on that. Pure myth.

...and in that regard what does separate Mohammed from his contemporaries was the level of mercy and compassion he showed to defeated people not the level of savagery as that was pretty much the norm for those time.

Wow Los, where are you getting this crap from? Seriously, what are you reading that says that? The Qur'an? The Sira? Some fawning hagiographer? Honestly, you're just spouting Islamic orthodoxy. What makes you think that Muhammad was merciful and compassionate toward those who opposed him? He wasn't. Did you read my post about how he had two poets who wrote critically about him, murdered! That's from Islamic sources, not from anti-Islamic sources. Did you bother to look up what happened to the Banu Qurayza after they surrendered to the Muhammad and his Muslims? All the men and boys (with pubic hair) MURDERED, and all the woman enslaved. It's just astonishing to me that you would make that claim about Muhammad, that he was more compassionate and merciful than the norm of the time. He wasn't. Okay, he was probably compassionate and merciful toward fellow Muslims, but is that really the universalist standard we want from a great Prophet and leader, to just be nice to your own group and be a bloody, conquering, murdering, enslaving S.O.B. toward "the other?" As I said in an earlier post, that is one bloody low bar to clear for the head of a great religion.

Also for those who continue to say that Egypt adopting the Koran as a state religion is bad

So you don't think that's bad, or is your mission here just to nitpick small points of hypocrisy as you come across them?

I must point out that most European countries have an official state religion, in my country(the UK) we have the Church of England whereas in France the national religion is Catholicism.

Source? According to Wiki:

Since 1905 the French government has followed the principle of laïcité, in which the State does not recognize any official religion (except for legacy statutes like that of military chaplains and the local law in Alsace-Moselle). Instead, it merely recognizes religious organizations, according to formal legal criteria that do not address religious doctrine. Conversely, religious organizations should refrain from intervening in the State's policy-making.

Maybe the Church of England is "official" there but it means about as much as the state of Indiana having the Cardinal as its State Bird. Pure window dressing.

Both countries are successful democracies and have pretty good human rights records.

It's absure for you to pretend that the Church of England or Catholicism have similarly dominant roles in England and France, as Islam has in Iran, for example. Or will soon have in Egypt. Please, Los, why are you making this ridiculous comparison?

Oh and I find it also very Ironic as to quote Richard Dawkins "the states in the western world that have no official separation of church and state are become more secular. The state in the western world that does have an official separation of church and state is becoming more fundamentalist" score one for the Bible belt eh? lol

Los, please tell me exactly how the United States is more religiously fundamentalist these days? And how is it -- the State itself -- more fundamentalist than England or France? In what specific ways?

Also, you do realize that Richard Dawkins is a harsh critic of Islam too, right? You need to read more by him.

Sorry for the hostility but you really set me off when you parrot Islamic pieties about Muhammad being so compassionate and merciful compared to all the other savages of his time. What a Crock of Crap!

Have a nice day.

I set you off did I Adam? Ok well you’ll have to forgive me for trolling but it’s what can happen when I have trouble sleeping. Now can I just point out a few things, first off ancient history isn’t my thing, it’s boring for me so I tend not to bother, but to completely disregard the points I made as “propaganda” as you did just highlights the overall problem that I have with people who go on about this subject, that they are not critical of the sources, they look at the Koran, the Hadith and the Bible and it’s all true, Jesus good, Mohammed bad and I think they do that to twist things into their agenda, now you’re right I too have an agenda but mine isn’t as extreme as everyone else’s here, mine ranges from just trying to get people to consider what they are reading, to showing how stupid many of the posters on here can be (and I’m sorry but anyone who suggests that a solution to the war on terror is the voluntary deportation of all Muslims to Islamic countries is stupid).

Now here’s what I know about Mohammed, well he was a war lord no doubt, he was a man trying to create an empire and he was a man who killed a lot of people. But I also know that the rules of warfare from his day said that enslaving your enemies was fine, that wiping out every man woman and child in a town that refused to surrender was acceptable (this is all for Europe and the Middle east during that time period) and that leaders at that time were expected to lead from the front and by example. So again when compared to the other empire builders of his time and before Mohammed’s level of violence doesn’t make him stand out, indeed in terms of his level of violence I’d say he has more in common with David from the Bible then Jesus.

Likewise about Jesus I’d love to see all the work that we know about Jesus’s life and how accurate it is, after all the only text I know is the Bible and like I said no body on here even thinks to question it, to question whether or not the character of Jesus it portrays is true or even realistic. Because I’d say from what I have read of the Bible Jesus comes off as far too perfect to be real and in that note it seems like he’s “borrowed” a lot from Plato.

Now In regards to France, my mistake I thought their official religion was Catholic. Oh well I can say there is a great amount of debate in the UK about the role of the Church of England though as not only is the Head of State also the Head of the Church but also there are several members of the upper chamber of the legislator (so house of Lords, which is similar to the American Senate) which are also Bishops and high ranking members of the Church of England (at this point I’d like to say that unlike the Senate The House of Lords is appointed and thus these men are appointed because they are high ranking in the Church of England) furthermore ask any right wing Christian in both the US and the UK and they will tell you how our “secular” law are based on the Ten Commandments and thus religion is the foundation of our legal systems. So to say we can have a successful democracy with our laws based on religion yet Muslims cannot I think is a tad hypocritical.

Oh and on that note no I don’t really care if Egypt becomes a Muslim theocracy because frankly I think that if it doesn’t work for the majority of the Egyptian people then they will change it, as no regime in history has survived indefinitely on repression alone. Also the length of the survival of such regimes tends to be getting shorter with the aid of modern communications.

Finally in regards to Richard Dawkins yes I’m aware he’s against Islam, but he hasn’t dedicated his career to fighting Islam has he? He’s dedicated it to fight the Christian fundamentalists who are becoming more assertive in the west (in particular the US) and in that regards it seems to many of us over in Europe that the US is becoming more fundamentalist, after all can you name any location in Europe (other than the Vatican) that is similar to the Bible Belt? Likewise how much focus did the media have for both Obama and Romney’s religion during the run up to the recent election? Now contrast that with the UK tabloids and ask how much attention did they play to David Cameron’s religion? Hell I remember reading one Atheist article here where they claimed there were more openly gay Senators then Atheists ones. So again the legally secular US sure as hell don’t look very secular in its public life to me these days and yea I do find it a tad hypocritical or ignorant that those who say that Islam cannot co-inside with democracy yet never say anything about the growing influence of Christian fundamentalism in their own country.

Oh well, I hope this hasn’t come off as too hostile, as I’m not trying to be. Ps have a good day yourself :)

Hello Los,

I apologize for getting so angy about what you said in the earlier post. Yes I disagree with most of it but that doesn't mean that I have to be disagreable in my response. It's more constructive (and civil) to debate the issues, not attack the person you disagree with. Usually I manage to do that but when you mentioned how compassionate and merciful Muhammad was compared to his contemporaries, I blew a gasket (not sure if that's just an American saying or if you have there too). At any rate I will reply just a bit to what you said about American and Christian fundamentalism.

You wrote:

Finally in regards to Richard Dawkins yes I'm aware he's against Islam, but he hasn't dedicated his career to fighting Islam has he? He's dedicated it to fight the Christian fundamentalists who are becoming more assertive in the west (in particular the US) and in that regards it seems to many of us over in Europe that the US is becoming more fundamentalist, after all can you name any location in Europe (other than the Vatican) that is similar to the Bible Belt?

Okay, admittedly I don't live in the "Bible Belt," as I'm well north of there. But I have lived all across the U.S., from coast to coast, and grew up in the midwest "rust belt." I've lived in very liberal places and in very conservative places. In all honesty there's not that much difference between them. I've travelled through Bible Belt states and people there are quite nice to outsiders, even "Yankees" (northerners) like me. I'm sure that there are some bigots, racists, and those dreadful "fundamentalists," but if they do post some kind of threat to non-fundamentalists then I certainly didn't detect it and I'm pretty good at detecting threats. Now if you're talking about stuff like Christians trying to put the Bible back into American History books, or trying to sideline the teaching of evolution, then yes I suppose that there is some of that. Is there pressure against abortion, yes I suppose there is, and some rare violence over it. Is there pressure against gay people who are openly gay and proud of it, yes I suppose there is. But by and large I would bet that if you lived in the Bible Belt yourself, Los, you would not find many of the rabid fundamentalists that you are envisioning unless maybe you lived in Topeka Kansas near the Westboro Baptist Church -- a truly fanatical and despicable bunch if there ever was one. But even they don't attack or try to kill anyone physcially which is more than can be said of Islamic fanatics. Plus, such Christian fanatics as that are minuscule in number whereas Islamic fanatics are found in disturbingly large numbers all across the world regardless of what kind of governments they live under. I suppose there are somewhat fewer where governance is good, but even then they are found in large numbers. But I'm getting off track so back to Christianity we go:

Likewise how much focus did the media have for both Obama and Romney's religion during the run up to the recent election? Now contrast that with the UK tabloids and ask how much attention did they play to David Cameron's religion?

Since I don't even know what you're getting at here you can be guaranteed that I am giving the straightest possible answer to this one. The American mainstream media focused very little on Romney's or Obama's religion. Hardly at all. The only time they brought it up was in regard to how Christian protestant America would respond to Romney's Mormon faith. Would they support him or not? Otherwise it wasn't an issue so far as I know and I followed the election very closely, reading many different political views and angles. As for David Cameron, I have no idea how much the British media focused on his religion?

Hell I remember reading one Atheist article here where they claimed there were more openly gay Senators then Atheists ones.

That's hard to say because atheists tend to not care about asserting their atheism since for most of us it is simply the absence of religion, not some dramatic rejection of religion or creed all its own. Atheists with a capital "A" who are openly hostile to religion may not fare as well if they trumpet that stance in their public interactions, but why would they anyway? For example, I am an atheist but I feel absolutely no drive or imperative to somehow trumpet my non-religious beliefs to others. Most atheists are not defined by atheism the way gay people are defined (or define themselves) by their sexuality. I think probably militant atheists are disliked as militants of most any type are disliked, but that goes for just about any person in public life. Who wants to be harangued by an angry, doctrinaire militant?

So again the legally secular US sure as hell don't look very secular in its public life to me these days

Los, this might surprise you but I live here and follow media, politics, and public life quite closely. The vast majority of people and politicians in American public life are mostly private about their religious beliefs. I just don't see or feel this tsunami of Christian fundamentalism that you describing here. I think you are reading some very exaggerated accounts of how much of a role that Christian fundamentalism plays in the American body politic. There are a few who wear it on their sleeves but not many.

and yea I do find it a tad hypocritical or ignorant that those who say that Islam cannot co-inside with democracy yet never say anything about the growing influence of Christian fundamentalism in their own country.

Okay, well, again, not only do I live here, and have lived across many parts of this country, but I'm also an atheist and would therefore certainly feel this threatening wave of Christian fanaticism if it existed in the way you are describing. It simply doesn't. In my entire life I've had just a couple of people (not counting door-to-door Mormons) try to talk to me about Christ or Christianity. It wasn't hard to change the subject or turn them away. One was a co-worker once while on the job, the other was a neighbor who was a good guy who I know was very religious (probably one of them thar fundamentalists) but he could tell I just wasn't interested. I didn't have much trouble steering the conversation away from religion and he didn't try again. As for the door-to-door types, they are very easy to turn away. Maybe there are places where the religion is more "In Your Face" and difficult to evade, but it's certainly never been that way in my experience. In fact I never give it a 2nd thought and i live in a community that is considered somewhat conservative, somewhat small-town America. Not Bible Belt mind you, but certainly not east or west-coast liberal-left such as Portland Oregon or Boston Massachusetts, both places I've lived in. And here is the biggest irony of all my friend: I was much more often, and much more aggressively, solicited about political matters by liberals and leftists in those cities who could hardly help themselves from injecting their political views into conversations with me, and trying to determine what my views were so they could size me up as friend or foe. Now THAT was uncomfortable and it happened many, many times to me. In other words I have personally experience many more aggressive, unpleasant, and unwanted encounters with people holding liberal-left positions trying to size me up and fit me out with liberal left politics than I have ever experienced with Christian fundamentalists trying to size me up and fit me out with Christianity. Not even close. And college was worst of all in that way because I attended a University that was chock full of people, including many professors, who were all about spreading the 'gospel' of liberal left political ideas and driving that agenda forward. Some of them were open-minded and respected a healthy exchange of ideas, but others were some of the most close-minded, arrogant, condescending hypocrites that I've ever encountered. That left a lasting impression on me.

Anyway, I've got to get to sleep now. See ya around.

Hey Adam

I just read you’re post and first of yes we do have the term “blew a gasket” over here and yes it means the same thing. Furthermore in regards to your blowing of a gasket I’d say don’t worry about it, I’m mature enough to realise that your anger was aimed at the post and not at me. Although I would say that I do prefer the term discuss as opposed to debate as debating sounds very confrontational to me.

Anyway I think in your reply you highlight one thing that I always try to keep in mind, that being framing. After all I do not live in the US therefore the picture/impression I get of the US mostly comes from the media (including news, interactions via the internet and so forth) and the way many of those frame fundamentalist Christianity is very negatively. After all not only is there the case of The Phelps family to consider (although I’m beginning to suspect that the main reason why non-gays dislike them is because they picket soldiers funerals which is pretty disgusting) but also there are there other concerns including accounts that atheists have been threatened and even attacked in the Bible Belt for being open with their atheism, the fact that there is a massive movement trying to get pseudo-science (aka Creationism) into Science classrooms, the fact that there is Christian Camps in the US that claim they can cure homosexuality (and also are reputed to have a very high suicide rate too) why even today MSNBC ran an article about a West Point student who is dropping out weeks before his graduation because he feels there is an un-lawful amount of Christian proselytizing and even discrimination towards non-Christians by many of the officers there (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/04/15676692-west-point-cadet-quits-cites-criminal-behavior-of-officers) So all in all for people like me on the outside it doesn’t look very good.

In relation to the elections I know that the news media made some deal about Mitt Romney’s religion, but if you look at the comments it’s obvious the basic American voter made more of a deal, after all I’m sure you know that one of the biggest arguments against Obama is that he’s a Muslim, which even if he was shouldn’t matter in a secular democracy should it? Likewise CNN (I believe) did a poll on Obama’s popularity a few years ago and found that it went up after he claimed to be Christian (which he only had to do because of the rumours that he was a Muslim.) So again it seems that the average voter puts a lot more importance on their politicians’ religion then other factors. Which leads me to that article I mentioned that had the quote that there was more openly gay senators then Atheists ones, that quote came from an article late last year about an Atheist convention in Washington DC. Anyway the implication behind that quote was that senators feel they have to be Christians in order to win votes, which again to me doesn’t fit in well to the idea of a secular democracy, you know that your religion is somehow a more important factor to your voter then your policies. Finally in this regards to answer your question about David Cameron there was nothing said about his religion, indeed I do believe that the only time his faith was mentioned was when he said something along the lines of “I don’t believe I have a direct line.” (Bill Maher was all over that comment on his show http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvl47ANhrx4)

In all whilst I’m willing to say that the image I am getting of America here is grossly distorted (in truth it’s one of the reasons why I’d like to visit the US to see how accurate my preconceptions are) I would also point out that the distortion I am getting is not really that different then the distortion that others get about other countries and their religious extremists.

Damn it all, I just typed out quite a few paragraphs in reply to what you had written, Los, and then lost it all by hitting "Tab" instead of "Caps/Lock" when needing to undo pressing Caps my mistake. Lost the whole thing, damn it.
I don't have the energy to start all over again now, at least not tonight....

Adam44

Ah don't worry about it :) crap happens eh? I don't know about you but I personally tend to type everything out on MS Word (well long posts anyway) and just copy and paste it onto here. I trust that you're well?

no, usually I save as I go for longer posts. this time I got lazy and paid for it.

oh well. doing ok but tired. how 'bout you?

Good enough, been under the weather recently with a bug (you know standard winter bug that goes around) also have a a few deadlines due soon. But my dorm did organise a massive Christmas dinner today which was good. So all in all yeah doing well

Look up Dominionism

Has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation (which, btw, has progressed with quite a bit of enthusiasm).

JCB (an open minded atheist) expressed it best:

Then your(sic) delusional. Christians, of which I am not, I'm an atheist, can still be Christians without regard to worship. In Islam that is not possible, you must "submit" to the "will" of Islam.

Of course, everyone knows that is not entirely true. To be 'Christian" means you have accepted Jesus as your "Lord and Savior" (like Jamie Foxx accepted Obama as his lord and savior) and only thru him are the keys to Heaven possible. Now, the arguments (which has raged for centuries) can begin.

The bottom line is Christianity does not require a "convert or kill" covenant. Islam does.

Adam, you maybe interested in this discussion, it shows you a different face of Losmuertos.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/11/15848966-obama-says-us-recognizes-syrian-opposition-coalition?threadId=3627733&commentId=72596374#c72596374

Coptic

No it shows me being pretty consistent, as on that article I am saying what I have always said, being that sometimes there are no good choices, and that for the West the MB were the only political group organised and had a clear plan. So it was inevitable that the west would work with them, the same decision would have been made by either republican or democrat, because believe it or not it is none of their concern what type of government Egyptians live under.

Oh and as I have mentioned before your stating the MB were worse than the Nazis is downright dis-respectful to those who were tortured and killed by the Nazis, and is nothing then just emotional passed propaganda.

Los, I wanted Adam to save his time and don't try to argue with an ideologist who is totally committed to one side of the Egyptian struggle that he can say this about the victims of the MB oppression

Maybe if the liberals and other minorities had gotten their thumb out of their asses and organised political parties, with manifestos and clear organisation then the West wouldn't be in this mess. But no they just complained, brought down the government and then complained some more when the MB moved in to fill the political vacuum they created.

Coptic, it’s pretty ironic that you are saying I’m totally committed to one side of the Egyptian struggle when you yourself are hardly non-partisan, indeed you have just admitted on the other thread to being a Republican propagandist, which automatically calls your objectivity into question. So if Adam reads this maybe he’ll agree with you, maybe not but the fact remains you are actually far less natural then I am here..

Oh and about my comment, well you can try to frame it as me “blaming the victims” but it’s obvious you either don’t understand the point or are just twisting it to suite your agenda (like a good propagandist) as I did no such thing. The essence of that quote is simply that when the rebellion against Mubarak started it was not organised, no one who participated thought about what they were going to do after Mubarak went, they were too focused on just getting rid of him. In doing so they not only left a vacuum (which the more organised MB filled) but were also slow on the up take of getting politically organised as well, which is the truth. Indeed, even now no real opposition party has emerged to the MB. They have opposition but that opposition is fragmented between different groups, and is not unified into a single unified party with a clear political aim codified in a manifesto. So again there is no one for the West to work with in Egypt then the MB.

Oh and if you really want some irony here, I would say that the quote you mentioned is following the Republican tradition of holding people accountable for their actions.

Ps Since I have wished Adam one, I’ll wish you a merry Christmas too, after all this discussion maybe getting pretty heated but that’s no reason for us not to be civil.

Los, I report the events and comment on it, while you, ignoring what is really happening, post your biased opinions and pretend to be objective. I am supporting those who paid the price of their belief in blood; and those are the real Egyptians: secular and religious - Muslims, Christians, and atheists - what unite them is their love of their country, Egypt. You are supporting an Islamo-Fascist group, the Muslim Brotherhood, you are ignoring the atrocities they are committing and using a Machiavellian approach to justify your position.

As for being a Republican propagandist, I support many in the Republican party and some in the Democratic party who are defending the human rights of women and minorities in the Arab World. I am against any politician, Republican or Democrat who side with the Islamist in the Middle East.

Of course you are, sure whatever you say.

Why be surprised? Obama has this country on the same road! I'm willing to bet it is the same road the the Muslim Brotherhood is on

Steve, that is total nonsense.

Can you substantiate your ridiculous claim?

Take off your tin foil hat!

Anytime you can get people on their knees 5 times a day with their rears in the air, 7 days a week, that's called indoctrination not religion. I am an atheist, so religion is not my cup of tea, but Islam is a cult, nothing more. Yeah, great idea, let a bunch of men control and make me second class, tent me, hide me, then keep me uneducated. Islam will always be a third world religion because half it's population, females, are relegated to second class status. How's that Arab spring working out for us? We need to get out of that area of the world, and stay out. If they get to aggressive, then we unleash hell on them.

Totally agree JCB...

Mike as I posted above Obama is doing exactly the same thing. He has thumbed his nose at the constitution which has been made easy because most people don't even know what the constitution says nor care of its existence. That is the stage of apathy. Look at how many DO NOT vote in this country. Half the voters know are just voting to keep the gifts coming. They care more about social issues than fiscal issues the latter must come first before social issues are tackled.

Egypt depends on western money but many loathe that fact. I really don't blame them and thus we should want to influence without passing out borrowed money that we do not have. If that influence only comes from bribery then we are just encouraging more corruption. When a company like Wal mart feels it necessary to make monetary payments to those standing in their way of doing business, we severely condemn that. We should set the same standard for our country that routinely pays off those that oppose us just to have influence.

Obama was so excited when Egypt fell.

I saw framed pictures of Christians crucified in the oval office.

Obama is giddy with excitement that Sharia law will be coming to America.

Seventh century Sunni Islamic dictatorship is the worst and most dangerous to Egyptians and others.

Are these people in 21st century?

MikeO76 I do not need tin foil to see through Obamination! What you need is enough intelligence to use deductive reasoning!

By the end of this four year term there will be no hiding exactly how big a Muslim lover Obamination really is !Maybe when you are forced to your knees to praise their heathen god you will relize!

Gee it's funny but it seems now that NOBODY voted for Obooma. How did he get back in office if Nobody voted for him?? Be careful what you wish for. But this is what we can expect from now on with all the Minorities in the country. Next election we will have a Mexican president, then a Black, then a Mexican, and about then the country should be finally ruined beyond repair.

Delusional much Stevie boy? You need to get your med prescriptions renewed.

" ... Gee it's funny but it seems now that NOBODY voted for Obooma. ... "

Huh. I did. So did my wife.

We are among the 69,456,897 (52.9%) that voted FOR Obama in 2008. And among the 63,714,092 (50.7%) that voted FOR him in 2012.

So your claim that "NOBODY voted for Obooma" shows just how ignorant you are.

Or am I wrong? It's not ignorance. But fear and hate that drive you to make statements like that. And what drives your fear and hate? My bet is on your religion.

George from Wa. State:

You are aware that Obama claims Christianity, as well?

Right, know-nothing drone. The concept you're rejecting is more commonly known as "inalienable rights". It says you're born free and no govt or other entity owns you.

Now go wait on your govt masters to send you your stipend.

Will, your beyond pathetic. Go sell stupid elsewhere pal, we're full up on here already.

Here Willy have some free cheese. Oh look Obama coupons aka food stamps.

There are both fanatics on the right and on the left. Again if you can't see that you are just like those in Egypt that are basing decisions based on emotion. Most conservatives are fiscally focused and then socially focused. I am a fiscal conservative and while I think socially in many ways we are much better off years ago, that is another discussion. I am saying that our society has broken down and until that is fixed we will keep spinning out of control. All nations need to have a strong family core that sits down to a meal together and discusses their lives and what is current in the world. Yes, it is structured to some degree but humans look for a certain amount of structure.

The black community has double digit unemployment with many unskilled that probably will never earn enough to live on without assistance. What is worse is that when I was growing up 60 percent of black families had a mom and dad, today that number has slipped to 30 percent. So what came first? You can't tell me that back in the 60s that things were much better off for blacks? Still, they had a better community than they do today which was focused around family and church. Is there something wrong with that? What happened was that the message to stay in school got lost and thus made it harder and harder for those without an education to survive. So then the government stepped in feeding their kids and putting then in shelter. This is true in the white communities that have broken down as well. So families are still having kids, but they aren't responsible for them. They no longer have to give them breakfast nor lunch and now in some cases dinner. At some point the government will come in and take the babies to raise as they see fit. There is a fine line between helping and hindering and we need to look at the stats and objectively figure out if our programs have the intended purpose or they are just enabling even further destruction.

@ Simple Theory: Your demeanor discredits your viewpoint before all that hot air coming out of your mouth can even get it aloft.

You didn't research either, did you?

In addition, you should read "American Taliban".

You won't do either.

You're above all that, because you're completely certain you're right.

We had inalienable rights.

Now we have a Supreme Court stuffed with right-wing puppets bent on taking them from everyone but the corporate citizen.

As a group, corporate citizens comprise a sly new nobility which enslaves you, brainwashes you, and programs you to the point where you believe that ignorant opinion is the equivalent of studied discourse.

By the way- I'm Christian myself- I just don't see any conflict between Christianity and actual science; I don't buy "Intelligent design", "natural law", or "natural rights".

The way I see it, a God of truly infinite capacity could have placed every hydrogen atom in existence in just the right positions to make stars, galaxies, and so on possible- knowing that we'd evolve from the break shot we describe as the "Big Bang" in due course.

How would that be any less miraculous than the creation allegorically described in the scribbled myths of marginally sapient hominids trying to grasp the unknowable?

Look...it's not necessarily perfection just because you call it the Bible, or because the Jews call it the Tanakh; it's just the best handle those coming into contact with the innately incomprehensible could put on it, and the same applies to al Quran.

The second the imperfection of man became involved with the transcription of perfect knowledge, it was lost and muddled forever.

That's why religion has to be personal- that's why the quest for spirituality has to be pursued on an individual basis- and that's why dogma is scornfully dismissed by anyone with a living relationship with God.

Christianity should be a framework, not a cage.

Every person out there must build their own road to salvation- and it's no easy task.

Sorry; you have to learn to think, or you'll likely be eating the chaff, and throwing out the wheat- and your soul will starve in the midst of the plenty with which a loving God has blessed you.

Will please... your anti-Christian bias is showing. It must be very frustrating to you to know that 90% of Aid organizations is Christian or started by Christians... :

From American Red Cross

Doctors w/o Borders

Salvation Army and others to numerous to name... So please... Unless you can find the Muslim equivalent to Mother Teresa... there is NO correlation between Christian belief (Of Christ) and Muslim belief. And as far as "natural law"... Christians also voted for Obama... If an OUNCE of what you said had ANY validity at all beyond your "obvious" disdain for ALL religions then your comment would have value... it however does not... but that's OK.... Jesus loves you anyway

The religious right does want theocracy in the U.S. and further believes that freedom of religion as laid out in our constitution was meant to be freedom of Christian religion. They don't have the votes here to make it happen yet (hopefully never) but they are working toward the goal of theocracy. Those who love freedom ignore them at great peril.

US Right is not that dangerous as Sunni Islamic hating and killing, which can be most barbaric and beastly, actions!

FeO2

You wish me to read the opinion of some left wing fool with an agenda? I do that everyday. Inalienable rights are not something to be given or taken away. They are yours simply because you had the opportunity to be born a human. Whether a person believes in a creator matters not.

"American Taliban". LOL. No one in America is forcing their religious viewpoints on you. That is just what the cult masters of the left feed the drones to rile them up. Take your nonsense post as an example.

Why don't you read something of value? Try Locke or Burke.

btw, I'm Christian myself

Hilarious. I'm not. Whereas I agree with the teachings credited to Jesus, I'm not a religious person.

Drones are so funny. And indoctrinated so badly they don't even realize it.

Funny; I would have thought you'd recommend Neitzche or Rand.

With regard to indoctrination, I'd say you, not I personify that.

You might also wish to read the entire post and think about it before responding; a knee jerk reaction is never a pretty thing.

If you ever achieve something vaguely resembling wisdom, you may gain the right to describe others as foolish- until then you're just another braying jackass wandering the intellectual desert of your own ignorance.

I doubt you ever read John Locke's "Causal Theory of Perception" or even the Whiggish idiocies of Edmund Burke- both long dead, and neither germane to discussions of a reality they never could have anticipated and that you clearly can't grasp.

I think you should read more widely and talk far less- especially in public.

FeO2Dreams - Well presented, well said and accurate..

I read your nonsense. I don't pay much attention to the omniscient. They're more often than not wrong.

Especially the fools with no understanding of inalienable rights. Or who believe the musings of Locke or Burke irrelevant simply because they are dead.

Yet confesses themselves a follower of one who died long before them.

And then claims "wisdom".

You're just a pompous know-nothing Googling drone.

Interesting how weak is the glue that hold these right wing, so-called "Christians", together. The fly apart with the slightest touch and rage on so incoherently..

@ "Simple Theory"...Yepper, buddy, that's me.."yawn"...

Thanks for attributing omniscience and wisdom to someone who claimed neither; I do claim education, much of it inflicted upon myself, as I read an average of three books a week.

In further correction, you've confused following with actively seeking- a living faith is never so complacent.

The Whigs are gone- a dead letter to blind idiots.

Locke got a lot of very important things about the fundamental nature of reality dead wrong- notably quantum mechanics- but I can hardly engage you in a discussion of something you never read in toto.

You probably prefer nice little sound bytes which are easily twisted into something supporting your..... indoctrination.

Oh, yes...I do use google, and a number of other search engines- with the equivalent of several Libraries of Congress available on line, only someone bent on remaining ignorant wouldn't.

The fact that you find that objectionable- when I have a copy of Locke in my library (along with Wirt Sykes "British Ghosts and Goblins" and a few other gems of antiquity)- says more about you than it does about me.

Finally- if I'm droning, it's because I'm falling asleep trying to "keep up" with your stunning wit.

The true mark of failed sanity is the inability to recognize defeat.

I think I'm done with you....go dance with someone who finds your naivete charming.

You likely died a rather long time ago- and simply refused to fall down.

@ Will..If you're talking about me, I'm hurt. I'm a moderate with leftward tendencies.

Of course...everyone regards themselves as the embodiment of most virtues- including moderation.

Why, even Lizzie Borden said she regarded herself as "basically good"- so I suppose I can refer to myself as moderate, right? Oh, sorry- I meant..."correct".

BTW Fe02

Perhaps you can explain to Will why Burke or Locke is not germane to the discussion of inalienable rights as described in our Declaration of Independence but Nitzche or Rand is? Demonstrate to this drone how strong your glue is.

Or did you mean german? LOL

Fe02

You certainly have a huge ego. You must be very proud of it. So you googled Locke and discovered he erred in quantum mechanics. Now you think that discounts his philosophy on human nature.

Good for you.

I find that so impressive I must ask.....which nations' governance have you influenced? LOL

Now I'm done. Have a pleasant time at church and don't let humility bite.

FeO2...........

Look around a little and accept facts as they present themselves. Your 'sly new nobility' phrase fits your view, not the facts.

The true 'sly new nobility' is the bureaucracy and our legislators. 'Sly new nobility'? I know exactly who Donald Trump (for example) is, exactly what he looks like, exactly where he lives and works. Now, can you tell me who wrote the Obamacare laws? Do you know where they work? Do you know who gave them their instructions? I'd lke a few proper nouns please.

The 'sly new nobility' of corporations does not have the power to pass regulations with the power of law. You can be imprisoned for not obeying the whim of some bureaucrat who can never be found. If the 'sly new nobility' in corporations lie on their annual report they can go to prison, as they should. When bureaucrats or legislators lie nothing happens. They have taught us it is normal and completely acceptable.

Our 'sly new nobility', the bureaucracy, works in secret and makes announcements as to what will happen in our lives. You may choose to not buy from Sears or GM and have an effect, possibly even put them out of business. But you cannot refuse to support the bureaucracy and any number of faulty products. They have very cleverly arranged for you to be required to support them; the new aristocracy. It is they who enslave you, and brainwash you, and tell you the acceptable position to hold.

" ... Especially the fools with no understanding of inalienable rights. ... "

So enlighten us. With something other then your opinion.

What EXACTLY are " inalienable rights". And where EXACTLY did/do they come from.

God just told me to tell ALL of you to just shut the f22k up!

Oil. That's it. That's all they've got. And it's the only reason anyone gives a sh!t what happens there.

Not only oil, but also the Suez Canal.

Egypt was friendly to America till obama F'ed that up.

I think the group that initially protested wanted to see some form of democracy. The issue was how much of the population shared their desire. Obama went wrong when he quickly threw Mubarak under the bus and naively felt that the MB would be good for Egypt. So yes, Egypt did trade one dictator for another, only the new one isn't even initially supported by nearly half the country, and is certainly not a friend of the US. Hillary falling over Morisi was foolish and sent another bad signal. She gave him more power by gushing and he is going to do now what he wants. Voters did the same thing here in our last election. The masses can be wrong such is the case in Egypt and I believe here in the US. You can have 90 percent of support and still be wrong if the policies are flawed or with evil intent as we are seeing now in Egypt.

Oil and the Suez Canal...definitely important, but it's not like we couldn't keep it open against the combined military "might" of every nation along it- Egypt included.

There are two basic questions here that no one seems to be asking: Why has Islam gained so much traction as the boogieman in the Western World- and why have we done so much to piss these folks off over the last few decades?

I have some speculations....

War is really profitable- and it's now our most important "industry" to those making a living from it- and they have a lot of clout.

We can't go to war with China- too big, and too economically pivotal to the interests of the rich who actually run this place.

We don't have the paper tiger of the Soviet Union to scare the sheep with any more- so we had to make a new one up.

Let me put this in perspective for you: California, all by itself with just the military assets already there, could take on the entire Middle East and reduce it to radioactive glass.

Wake up- you're being played.

Gary Clark-3303449 ---

Not only oil, but also the Suez Canal -- Not much said about the Suez Canal up until this point but I predict Islamic control of it will devistate world commerce in the short term.

Rockyroad-531554 --

Egypt was not "friendly" to America - - It was strictly a dollars and cents relationship. Any time you do business with an Arab you are doing it on his terms.

Let all seventh century brave Sunni Saudis, Egypt, Toorky, Qotaris and other Sunni rulers battle Assad and Iran.

Keep away from Syria and Iran.

Well said J. Howard. I think Rocky forgot where some of those 9/11 terrorists came from. Or maybe he forgot about ol' Ayman the Sliman....Al Qaeda's new figurehead!

there can be no peace with israel in mideast

Israel is not the problem, educate yourself so you don't appear the fool.

uka hates freedom and puppies. ^-^ *see post above*

There will be no peace with Israel and those in that region that do not recognize their very existence. It would be like Mexico lobbing rockets every day over on the US because they are challenging our very existence based on past history of wars involving land. There is no compromise until both sides start fresh from today and that won't happen. So instead of looking back, they look to see how both can co-exist.

it is unbelievable that israel who since 1972 has caused gas to go from 29 cents to $4 costing the worlds economy trillions a rabbi dov zekiem the treasurer of the pentagon stole 2.5 trillion and sent it to israel along with other trillions fellow tribe members looted on wall st and we still have foaming at the mouth supporters of israel here

You bet!

The turn of events in Egypt is very bad for sane Egyptians, Christians, females and Jews of Israel.

Sunni Saudi promoted and exported globally, Salaffi and Wahhabi and their fronts like MB, al Qaida, Taliban, and other label ones are the worst cult (wearing a religous brand name) humans have seen in history.

US and allies and Israel need to take a time out and stop supporting Sunni Saudis, Qataris, Turkeys' and others!

Keep away from Syria and Iran.

Let the seventh century Sunni Saudi cult people battle with tenth century one on whose Allah's is greater in Syria, Iran and other places.

Also to weaken enemy No. 1 Sunni Saudis and co and reduce our economic woes, remove sanctions on Iranian oil.

hey rex how are things going at the settlement? shoot any palistinean kids today?

Uka,

You forgot to mention that Israel was the cause of the Great Recession, is the cause of global warming, and makes mold grow on week old bread. Jews bred the flu virus and alter it every year so lots more peole die, and the industry that makes vaccines (which HAS to be owned by Jews) makes more money every year.

If you read the footnotes in Mein Kampf you'll learn that Hitler was actually Jewish and the Holocaust was his way to find a way to sucker the world into getting Jerusalem back and creating a Jewish homeland.

Since your blind hatred probably won't let you recognize it: that was sarcasm.

It must really piss you off that no matter where Jewish people go, they tend to work hard, become educated and then become successful. It must also be galling that for all the times their hateful neighbors have made war against her, Israel has wiped up the desert with them. That leaves anti-semites like you to whine and spread lies out of hatred and impotence.

Enjoy the day.

"there can be no peace with israel in mideast" ... Really? That's a choice you Muslims make, Uka. Fourteen million Jews on the planet and 1.5 billion Muslims. Seriously, who's the crybaby here?

Actually, there can be no peace as long as Islam and Muslims exist.

Muslims ... Because there just aren't enough whiners on the planet.

Islam is poison.

since women here treat men like dogs maybe the arabs are on to something

Unless the military comes down on the side of the Brotherhood, they are going to have a very rough time of it because the Egyptian people are not going to put up with this charade and abuse of power.

Yes they will Rex.

that is because egypts military will be bought off with billions from the US which is really aid to israel for jordan egypt iran to bow down to satanic israelis

You are forgetting strategic allies, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Worst form of Islam is in those nations.

They are responsible for 80 percent of world problems including economic ones.

British invented them and US and allies have kept them on map.

If there were no Iraqi wars, Saddam would have wiped out Sunni Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, UAE and some more Sunni fountain head of world problems out of map.

uka, be careful, your anti-semitism is showing... are you Sunni or Shi'ite?

like paying a 42 year old guy who retires a multimillion dollar pension for 40 years thank the unions want to bankrupt europe thatnk the unions

@MintyFreshness

I had weekends off my entire working life.....................not in a union

I had safe working conditions........................................not in a union

I had all Holidays with my family.................................... not in a union

I had above minimun wage.............................................not in a union

I had overtime pay..........................................................not in a union

Millions of employees have had these things but do NOT belong to a union!

@liberalee

youre taking it for granted that just because you personally may not have been in a union, that doesnt mean union work elsewhere didnt shape the way the business you worked for treated their employees.

you had those things at your workplace because unions helped get them elsewhere and the business you work for adopted those policies. you still have to thank unions whether youre involved with them or not.

Minty: Spoken like a true union Stooge, whoops, I meant steward. Same thing though I would think.

Historically, unions DID serve a purpose, a great purpose. But they got what they were fighting for, and now they are hacking the proverbial golden goose into pieces, because they haven't realized that the war they won ended a long time ago.

I pray that cooler heads prevail, in Egypt.

They won't. You're wasting your time.

uka, I'll mind my own business when you take your hatred of "American pigs" and leave my country. Not all of us are asleep.

You have remember Obama was raised as a Muslim in Indonesia and his sympathies have always been with them.

Rex-

And it must be true! Donald Trump said it was so!

Do you seriously think that democracy will come to an Islamic hell hole like Egypt? That statement by Rumsfeld is utterly irrelevant to this situation.

One of the best posts on this topic.

ok so Morsi is a terrorist? then Bush, and obama created terrorism itself. you are funny.

Ok so, Morsi is a muslime isn't he? Is there a difference? It says in the Koran that it is a duty to lie to deceive infidels, so who should we believe? You can tell when Morsi is lying.....his lips are moving. Even when they say they are telling the truth ...they are lying. These people are just plain stupid and evil. They staged a revolution for democracy and voted in a muslime brotherhood stooge. Now they have the freedom to do whatever the new dictator tells them they can do. Complete idiots. What did they think, he was going to turn into prince charming after the election? Just when do the be-headings of the people who disagree with him begin? These people are diseased virus carriers and muhammed was patient zero. Just leave them alone and hopefully they will kill each other.

@ Black Kettle & Sand Creek...lest we forget : Your post was succinct and comprehensive- an eloquent explanation of a complex topic. Thanks for laying it out so clearly- from a position of far better knowledge than I have the time to achieve. I simply can't keep up with everything going on- but posts like yours make it possible to at least follow the outline of this nation's reinvention.

Thank you FeO2 Dreams - I have to admit that I have been watching Egypt more and more because I have an Egyptian friend who is very worried about all his relatives - and they are Coptic Christians, so their plight is of concern when dealing with the MB. I hear stories from him that he he gets directly from relatives or friends in Cairo - they are very scared in Egypt now. He works very long hours in the US, so I follow Egypt the best I can so that he can also inform his relatives and friends about news they don't know - in order to help protect them. Thank you for the compliment. Have a great day!

BK&SC,

Those are lucid, rational and thoughtful analysis and comments, thank you.

Just when I was about to log out of here after wading past the haters, nutjobs, wingnuts and then more of the same - I stumbled across a pearl or reason and logic.

Best,

The Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in 1928, remains an illegal organization and may not be recognized as a political party (current Egyptian law prohibits the formation of political parties based on religion). MURSI is cashing in on noone noticing that his party is not eligible to run an election or may even be nul and void as it stands today. tx for linking the constitution. its clear that art 11 and 12 makes the republic of egypt a recognized islamic state (legalising his party ) ,,shia laws for egypt but other articles just for muslems.. seems unconstitutional from its inception.

Thank you all and may we wish the best for the Egyptian People!

That's funny, someone is always saying that something was hijacked by Islam or that Islam was hijacked by extremists. Neither is true.

doug miller you are like trained parrot trying to make the jews enemies nazis and arabs americas enemies

LOL. you dont even let the muslims have their own affairs in their countries, the US invaded, iraq, afghanistan, yemen, pakistan, nkorea, vietnam..the us is the only obstacl for the palestinians to get their state beside israel..and you talk about muslim world dominace? are you for real? i dont see any mislim country invading christian countries, is the exact opposite. LEAVE THEM ALONE. NO WONDER WHY THEY HATE US.

your an idiot. you have no idea what your talking about.

Mr. Warden ... That's funny. He doesn't know what he's talking about? Muslims scream it from every corner of the Earth 24/7 or haven't you noticed?

I find it hilarious that you dhimmi libtards will skewer someone who repeats exactly what Muslims are saying and scream that it's not true even when it can be proven true, but you won't skewer the Muslims for saying it to begin with. When your liberal ideology takes you over the edge, it's time to give it up.