I would agree but unfortunately people are easily mislead by empty promises and that is happening throughout the entire world. The only way for a government to remain ethical if for the people to have the power to remove anyone who is unethical from office in a timely manner. When you have to have a bloody revolution to bring about change it further degrades the infrastructure and makes its citizens more vulnerable to unethical forces within the new government.

@just a cleaning lady

What we see in the ME is a great majority of ignorant masses (Egypt being one of the most fortunate).

If the U.S. would have spent half of the trillions of dollars we have spent for decades helping dictators in that region, by direct education, we would have avoided most of our problems. Islamist leaders rely on the ignorant masses for their purposes. The ones blowing themselves up for "their cause" are the ones who don't value their life on earth much (because it really has no value, but they get a chance to become of "importance").

Sure, the Egyptians now can serve as an example for others in the region. But the Egyptians themselves don't have a real experience of Democracy or what it entails. They have to try and fail, and receive the punches in between.

fightforfreedom and JJsee,Great comments and I do see your side of things.I'm hoping against hope for the Egyptians people to be able to obtain the liberties and freedoms that you and I as Americans enjoy.That is my wish,my hope and my dream for people around the world.

JJsee -

In the end, I think you're right. Our experiments in Afghanistan and Iraq are proving this day by day.

It's cold-hearted, it's cruel, it's downright not in our short-term best interests at all to allow these people to have representative government, because they tend to elect cruel, greedy, petty officials who are often told what to say by theocratic demagogues that stoke political power with anti-US sentiment.

We were lucky enough to have founders that recognized that the rights of the minorities outweigh the opinions of the majorities (though that has caused problems for us, too), and enshrined that recognition in the Constitution (even though many people profess not to see it). These people, though, they come from a different system. It's a more authoritative, religiously-infused system.

Unfortunately, only these people have the right (and willpower) to determine for themselves their government. I see it going two ways:

1) the religious right in the country wins out, controls the educational system, and we see another dictatorial/communistic system put into place with theocratic underpinnings. They successfully corrupt the educational system to the point they have enough dumbed-down people to keep the rest in line. Of course, this has the side effect of isolation from the world, extreme poverty, and all the trappings of theocratic institutions. I'd expect them to declare war on SOMEBODY soon.

2) the people realize, eventually, somehow, that their best interests lie in civil liberties, and once again overthrow the government. They come to understand that the rights of individuals trump the needs of state (on most issues, at least), and try to install a government that's more like that. Or, they get elected (in these "free and clear" elections, right), and make reforms from within that gain popularity as the populace becomes more educated and more understanding.

Option 2 is generally seen as the ultimate end-all be-all of the system of revolution, at least by Americans. But, the thing is, we can't force it on them. We could try to give them a taste of it, but with the rampant anti-American sentiment over there, the mullahs will just whip the people up in a frothy mixture of patriotism and bigotry and the old guard will return. However, simply putting our own dictator in place is not even stop-gap worthy anymore. The Internet has put paid to that strategy now, as people can communicate covertly and without their approval and can form resistances that undermine those put in power because they were put in power without the consent, or informative consultation, of the people, and therefore have no sense of the people.

By and large, I think this is an opportunity to practice live and let live within certain parameters. Put pressure on them to stop the religious violence, educate their populace, and use force to keep them from antagonizing thoroughly, or going to war with, their neighbors in the region. Other than that, I think this is an extremely long and painful process they have to work through for themselves.

Let´s hope this is the beginning of the end for the Muslim bro.In Egypt.the U.S and the whole world.They are insidious.devious and undermine whatever country they live in.They are also terrorists and their actions and their charter prove this.They should go back where they came from..i.e to prison.If this comment seems simplistic I suggest you read up and study about them.Like hamas,hezbollah.alquida talebans,they are just as much terrorists..even if they sometimes try to hide their devil´s tail!

Morsi fleeing the palace....lol

It's funny because you dont see such a thing in a real Democracy, a REAL civil society...

Can you imagine seeing Bush or Obama fleeing the white house through the back door or Queen Elizabeth fleeing Buckingham palace through the royal kitchen...lol

If these were Muslims driving out a democratically elected Christian president of Egypt I doubt you'd be saying the same things. And if Christians were the majority party in drafting a Constitution today I doubt they'd seek much input from other minority groups and religions in Egypt or this country.

The only way for a government to remain ethical if for the people to have the power to remove anyone who is unethical from office in a timely manner.

That is called a democracy.

Egypt is in the formative years of their post-Mubarak, post-Sadat, post-Nasser era. I hope they make it.

But it may take time. Both South Korea and the Philippines [Remember Ferdinand Marcos?] took a long time to become truly effective Democracies.

Some Lame Name Here

If these were Muslims driving out a democratically elected Christian president of Egypt I doubt you'd be saying the same things.

I don't thing so, Christians in our days are tolerant to other religions. There are many countries in Latin America, like Peru where the official Religion is Christian , however there is democracy and there is no religion discrimination, everybody is treated equal regardless their faith. The Muslim religion is exclusive, if you are not Muslim you are an infidel, a second class citizen of any Muslim country.

It is a shame Obama support Morsi ,even against most people of the National Security Community,advise him not to support Morsi. However this administration decide also to take away the Muslim Brotherhood from the list of terrorist Organizations .

They say the draft constitution does not reflect the interests of Egypt's liberals and other groups, an accusation dismissed by Islamists who insist it is a balanced document.

Right there is the problem. How can you say it is a balanced document when you dismiss the people who say it isn't?

This is what happens when you elect a believer to run the country. You get a dictator who wants to please god, not the people.

Christians in our days are tolerant to other religions.

You gota be kidding? Which koran burning, atheist hating, woman controlling version of christianity are you talking about?

“President Obama's action today is
a blight on his legacy because he will forever be known as the president who
signed indefinite detention without charge or trial into law,” said
Anthony D. Romero, ACLU executive director.

I think all communication between Obama and Morsi should be monitored...by the public

no religion is tolerant of another...and that's why every church states it opinion in big giant letters on the front of the building. I mean really, we do see ethnic places, but you don't see a store "white people market" but somehow religion is allowed to say "Christin's church"....i see it as the same....racism/religionism...lol but its still the same thing...if you identify yourself as "white", "black", "yellow" or lets say "Mormon", "christian", "Muslim" you are excluding and singling out yourself as superior. Religion is not an identity...its just a past time. Do you say im "volley ball" no you dont, you say your a female of a certain age or such....but some people always identify others by saying, shes Mormon, or you mean the Mormons. Religion is the most intolerant "entity" on this planet.

I'm siding with one voice on this, and Islam is not exclusive. As long as you belong to the abrahamic triad, the Quran expressly forbids persecution of religion. In one translation: "And to those believers of the three, the three texts which all pay homage Allah, no human mallady must befall them, as they all serve father god allah."

Does this ring familiar ? Beware in D.C.

Our own government had better get a handle on what the citizens of this country are willing to tolerate before similar scenes are enacted here. Once this type of thing is perceived to be successful, peaceful negotiation becomes boring and too slow for fulfillment of the senses.

Americans, too, are reaching a boiling point with certain issues.

Yes Obama is such a dictator that he's being held hostage by Rehnquist and his republican party. Pathetic people support the republican party that have all pledged oaths to Rehnquist and uphold it over their oath to the American people.

@ New - it would help if you got your facts straight. Rehnquist is the retired Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Norquist is the one with the pledge.

In any case, it is no different than what is happening in this country. People are ruled by thier ignorance, ruled by the mind washing of party lines, and even when presented tangible facts, are still too stupid to see the truth. In the end, neither party (Republicans or Democrats) are sterling. Neither do anything other than serve themselves. Over our entire history politicians make promises they neither intend on keeping or are perfectly aware they will never be able to fulfill. They propagate these lies to con stupid people to vote for them. Then turn around and blame someone or something else for the reason for not following through on the lie.

We are a society chock full of hypocricy. We claim to be the morality of peace and freedom and act so contradictory to it that it is no wonder we are so globally despised and hated. We make allies, we @!$%# on those allies, and we sell them out for the next best thing to hit the streets. We did it with Iran in the 70s and 80s, we did it with Iraq in the 80s and 90s, we did it again with Egypt and Libya most recently. We continue to do these things because as a people, we are as fickle as a teenage girl trying to decide on a prom date. Always looking to court someone who has something more to offer.

This current administration is no different. Look at the hypocricy staring us in the face today. The dreaded and often blame Bush garbage, but yet we sure as hell don't want to see those tax breaks disappear. The rich are vilified and expected to foot the bill, but yet, when something benefits the rich, it most certainly is considered pandering to the rich. You have a society that is more interested in thier handouts and other social benefits but yet when it comes time to curb federal spending, the highest price tag item (Entitlements) is considered a no go. 23% of Federal Spending is on Medicare, Medicade, and other social handouts. Defense Spending ranks 3rd, behind Social Security at the #2 spot. The difference between Social Security and the Handout Funds (as I call them) is that Social Security is the only self sustaining program in the Budget - IF the profits were left the hell alone. But that isn't the case now is it. No, instead that Social Security Trust Fund becomes another source of internal borrowing to pay for everything else.

The country has lost sight of itself. The people of this country are as misguided as anywhere else, and we squallor in our ignorance and uneducated rhetoric. Hug a democrat, hang a republican. Appease the minorities for thier votes, and after the election @!$%# on everyone. The one thing I haven't heard out of Washington is talk about cutting THIER salaries as part of the budget debate. Common sense would tell you leadership starts at the top making a sacrifice so the people they lead can see we are all in the same fight. But you won't ever see that, nor will you ever see someone on the public tit not demanding more. We have no moral authority to bitch, complain, or even remotely voice an opinion on how others live thier lives when we live in the biggest glass house of all...

This country has the same problem we got stuck again with a crap president dummies voted for him. Does anyone really believe Egyptians didnt know who they were voting for? The muslim brotherhood has been around for like 80 years. Egyptians know exactly who they voted for. The brotherhood is an Islamic terrorist organization. They assasinated Anwar Sadat the former president. Mubarek hounded them locked them up as they should be. Then you have our brillant leader saying the brotherhood is good they mean no harm totally supporting them. You gotta wonder what side our president is on. This is what you get when we dont vet a president a guy that really didnt grow up American.

Sounds like are Pres. never home.

@Jim -768838

Regardless of who you voted for, you shouldn't say or even believe that 51 percent of American voters are dummies. We have 2 parties and most of us vote for our party regardless of preference (yes, that includes both Rep and Dem). With help of Independents, one of the candidates win.

Anyways, about the subject of the article, even though you might be right about MB, we cannot keep and support dictators forever. We've seen that fact with Cuba's Batista and many others right here in the Americas. Even if Sadat and Mubarak were "good" for the U.S., only the citizens of those countries can decide who their leader is. If the U.S. keeps supporting ruthless dictators for our own benefit, the hate towards us will keep growing forever. And then, we'll keep complaining about it.

new gawker, you mean norquist, not rehnquist.

the republicans have for some idiotic reason enslaved themselves to one clown that nobody elected, ie. grover norquist

The only way to get a Democracy in Egypt is to oust Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood and that means a bloodbath.

The MB may not get super violent but I would not count on it. When the Arab Spring began Iranians tried to protest and their religious leaders called for executions if anyone protested. That stopped the protests.

fight for freedom, I am worried that you may be right. This is the most important question, will the MB turn into violence to suppress the popular uprising. They have resorted to violence more than once in their long history, but then they became political savvy and they spun off their militant branches into other groups. They also continued to maintain their own secret militia, not to mention their militant branches in other countries such as Hamas in Gaza. There were wide spread rumors in Egypt about militants coming to Egypt from Gaza to help their brothers.

I am worried that the MB may resort to the assassination of some of the opposition leaders and in this case that bloodbath you talked about may exceed our worst expectations.

Coptic Christian stay safe and pray as I will pray for the safety of those who seek justice peace and freedom.

fight for freedom, thank you for your concern. Actually I am safe here in the good old USA, but I have relatives who are still living in Egypt. I am deeply concerned about what is going on in the Arab World in general and in Egypt in particular. The events taking place now will be a turning point and we will either witness a modern secular democratic States at the end of this struggle or an iron curtain descending on the Arab World and a return to the dark ages.

Coptic Christian, do you see any common political interest between the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and the Wahabis in Saudi Arabia?

Superficially, both the expanding MB and the incumbent Wahabis wield considerable influence, and both share the same Islamic fanatical zeal (meaning "Hamas" in English), and yet I find it difficult to believe that their current political ideologies are compatible.

It is well known that Islamic purists have an aversion to any form of monarchy, and surely the MB hold a similar view. If this is true, and since the Wahabis are effectively shoring up the Saudi monarchy, which in turn is underpinning Bahrain, Jordan, Qatar, and a few other conservative states, then I envisage a huge looming clash between the Wahabis and the radical MB. And this must be very unsettling to the House of Saudi and the entire Middle East.

In short, do you think the Muslim Brotherhood can co-exist with the Wahabis? This is my greatest concern. I think the potential for a MB vs Wahabi confrontation is well-founded and highly likely, and possibly poses a greater threat than any future Arab-Israel conflict.

Meanwhile, I reiterate the benection of #1:18: "Tahia Misr", though I steadfastly believe our only hope is Yessu Al Masih

Sir Vival, I will start by listing the main differences between MB and Wahhabi/Salafi factions; Wahhabi may be cconsidered a Salafi style faction, they try to live what they considered the way the first Muslims lived, most of their decrees are based on attempts to answer the question WWMD "What Would Mohammed Do" of course in many situations the answer could be based on their wild interpretations of a Hadith or a verse from the Qur'an. MB is a religious/political movement with an ultimate goal of a world ruled by an Islamic Caliphate. So the Salafi are more biased towards a pure implementation of Islamic rules as an ideal system of Government while MB is more of a political system trying to impose their political interpretation of Islam on the whole society, and those two interpretations do not always agree. Also, while Salafi are usually upfront with their religious convictions, MB try to couch their long term goals in a good public relation campaign.

In Egypt the Salafi are supported by Saudi Arabia, while the MB are supported by Qatar with the blessings of the current US administration. MB managed to win the support of salafi in their confrontations withe the secular factions in Egypt, especially in the Constitution effort. They try to keep the Salafi on their side by meeting some of their demands. The worst example of the wheeling and dealings of MB was that Morsi promised to appoint a woman and a Christian as deputies, but Salafi objected, because according to their interpretation of Islam neither women nor non-Muslims should have authority over Muslims and Morsi backed off and did not keep his promise.

Today most of the Salafi in Egypt are still working with MB towards their goal of an Islamic based state but the future of this alliance is not clear.

Coptic I shall pray for them.

Coptic Christian, interesting, and many thanks for your prompt response

Hi everybody , I am another Coptic Christian . In fact , I wished if MB would take over the country long enough till Egyptian Muslims learn everything about real Islam. Then , it will be the end.

This is something like enema , the Egyptians should take it till the last drop. It is humiliating , painful, followed by spasms , diarrhea with horrible odour, weakness and may be dehydration. But at the end CLEAN BOWL.

Mr.29. I suspect that you just wrote your paragraph just to get a rise out of people. I do suspect that, because NO ONE who has a brain could say that Obama is taking our rights away. The only ones who took any of our Rights away is the Bush Administration. Mr.29, you also may just be a troll. Which is it? Are you just a troll, or are you just plain un educated, or a fool. Which is it.

Well...who I am is this: I can spell, I can puncuate, I don't call anyone names and I don't blame the problems of the world on the Bush administration.

I can spell, I can puncuate,

LOL

maybe something like me, I can't type worth a spit (puncTuate)

I don't blame the problems of the world on the Bush administration.

but you probably swallowed the Rush limpbone, et-al koolaid and spent eight years blaming Clinton for everything that went wrong during the Bush administration.

the standard right-wing tactics for the last 20 years have been to "investigate" every democrat they could and waste millions of dollars on political witch hunts.

tens of millions wasted "investigating" Clinton, and tens of millions more more going after Obama instead of Holder himself solely for political points

I hear plenty of RWNJ "outrage" at Obama's vacation expense, where's the outrage at the political witch hunt expenses? which cost far more.

Gee thats too bad. I thought you people wanted to be Ruled by Religion??

Obviously thinking is not your strong suit. It was stated throughout the entire Egyptian uprising that they DID NOT want islamic rule. Morsi supposidly distanced himself from the brotherhood before the elections. Atleast do a tiny bit of research before chiming in...

Falls under the heading of "Be careful what you wish for."

hedward; "Sad to see the good people in Egypt were duped. No democracy this time around. Maybe in another 50-60 years they can try again"

ditto; "Sad to see the good people in the USA were duped. No democracy this time around. Maybe in another 4 years we can try again"

elizaken, while the immediate future of Egyptian women is not as bleak as you painted, there are some setbacks included in the proposed constitution; it does not specify a minimum age for marriage which will allow girls of almost any age, most likely early teens, to be sold to rich Arabs. Also, it will remove all the equality decrees passed by Sadat and Mubarak, which gave women some say in matters related to marriage and divorce.

Coptic, I pray everyday for all of the Christians,all over the world ,who have to live in a country ruled by Muslims. My ancestors come from Lebanon,they are all Christians and the ones who still live in Lebanon, must live under the rule of Hezbollah,a terrorist group who only brings war and misery to the people. Democracy does not work in the Middle east because, the majority of the people are more worried about their religion ,than bringing freedom to ALL of the people. I can guarantee you one thing , this so called Arab Spring, will not work out well for the Christians and Non Muslims. And all I can do is sit over hear across the ocean ,and pray for all of my Christian brothers and sisters, as they are being slaughtered and run out of their home lands,by the Peace Loving Muslims, with the help and backing of our Muslim President.

joe, sadly the Christians in the Arab World are facing the brunt of radical Islam madness, while we are struggling to wake up our friends in the West so they fully comprehend the real tragedies that are happening on a daily basis in the Middle East. I guess that is all we can do and hopefully more Westerns will understand that the tragedies taking place in the Middle East are gradually spreading into the West, and unless they take strong actions now, they will pay a heavy price for their inaction later.

Arab Spring, Muslim Summer, Rioting Fall, Nuclear Winter

MTpolitico

Nice! lol

I was wondering that myself, the big three can't seem to agree on spelling of anything to do with the middle east.

FOX: Mursi, Morsi, and Al Qaeda, Qaddafi, Gaddafi.

NBC: Morsi, Mursi, Mprsi(probably a typo), Al Qaida, Gadhafi, Qaddafi.

CNN: Morsy, Morsi, Al Qaeda, Gadhafi.

CNN seems to have the least amount of diverse spellings, but Al Qai/eda, Mo/ursi/y, and G/Qad/d/hafi haven't returned my calls about the correct spelling yet.

Too funny... I guess they could settle it with one word...scumbag.

Hey Egyptian people. Surprise! Really? You didn't see this coming?

All these are valid spellings that approximate the pronouncement of the corresponding Arabic names. Arabic has no vowels, like Hebrew, it consists only of consonants only, and markings on these consonants indicate the way the word should be pronounced. As an example, Morsi in Arabic is four letters from right to left "م ر س ى " and depending on the markings on these letters you get what sounds like Morsi in English alphabet. To add to the confusion when people try to pick the correct letters for their names they don't agree. I even read that Morsi used to write his name as Morsy and that was the way he wrote it on his PhD Thesis at USC but later he started to prefer Morsi. As for Mursi, that is not unusual either remember there are some who use the word Muslim, while others use Moslem and the corresponding letters in Arabic are “م س ل م “

Actually I think it is spelled "Merci"

Secondly, this whole situation reminds me of the story about the Frog and the Scorpion. These Egyptian idiots who voted him into power did know he was part of the muslime brotherhood didn't they? What did they expect after he got into office, Prince Charming? If you are not infected with the evil virus known as islam, it may be time to leave Egypt.

Merci was the name a Syrian broadcast used making fun of Morsi and his MB friends in Syria who are attacking the Syrian Government. As for the election of Morsi, he was running against Ahmad Shafik, and although many did not vote for Shafik because he was a former member of Mubarak's government, he got more than 48% of the votes, and there are strong rumors that he actually won and that the results were changed to avoid a MB uprising. After few month of Morsi's rule many are regretting voting for him and that's why the latest events may be MB attempt to make this last vote really be the last vote.

Hi Seven , how r u ? Merci is French , which does not match with our president.I cannot believe this man had lived in U.S.A. Sorry , but the way he is talking is very vulgar.

Hi Coptic, Sorry this was supposed to be a joke. "Merci" is French for Thank You, as in, "Thank you for being foolish enough to elect me."

Hi Seven, I do actually know French. But I found it funny to watch an Arabic Syrian TV, where the commentator was criticizing and making fun of Morsi, so he kept calling him Merci, which sounds more feminine than MORSI.

And a welcome to Coptic-Christian from Coptic Christian.

riverboy21-

I also saw Morsy, on CNN International.

I find it very interesting that so many of the new leaders coming into power were educated in the west. Is it possible that these so called home grown politicians are selected by the west to gain access to many Arab gov'ts. So sad that so many Americans and Europeans don't understand that the west is controling the ME and in default the banksters are controling the west. All the unstability in the ME is created by the west and the banking cartel, war is a great money maker and soon enough all the countries will be broke and the NWO will have it all. Welcome to modern age slavery.

Jackson, Morsi joined the Muslim Brotherhood while he was a graduate student at USC, unfortunately many Muslim student associations in the US are dominated by MB. It used to be that when foreign students attend Western Universities they were exposed to leftist propaganda, now when they come to the States they are indoctrinated by the Islamic-Leftist Academic Complex.

@ Coptic Christian - thanks for the language lesson. I kind of figured that might be the reason for the different spellings.

Roger that!!

Nope, saw it coming a mile away....that said, saw what is happening to the U.S. two miles and 4 years ago away. Better buckle up, the ride is 4 years from being over and its not going to be nice.

American,,,,,,, The Shiite is hitting the fan. No doubt about it.

American Soldier-1929698

Nope, saw it coming a mile away....that said, saw what is happening to the U.S. two miles and 4 years ago away. Better buckle up, the ride is 4 years from being over and its not going to be nice.

I'm sure your prediction is as accurate as other right-winger's predicting they would "sweep" the election in 2012.

The Real Chris,

The prediction of a US economy in the crapper and our kid's outlook for a better standard of living than there parents is holding strong under the Clueless in Charge.

seriously? What a moronic comment. Claiming again that Obama is muslim?

Come on....

The Salafists (Nour Party) are 25% to MB/FJP 75% in the Constitutional Assembly. They are the ones who will destroy the Sphinxes,Giza Pyramids,have revolting laws re: dead females- young girls marriage age 14 (some 12 yrs)-slavery yes- no school for females/covered ..EgyptAir stewardesses are now in veils. Why would anyone wish this on everyday Egyptians. Obama invited Morsy to Washington,D.C. Dec.17th - Egyptians v ote on Dec.15th on the Constitution- Morsy's invitation was given much earlier.

Islam may only last another 200 years, but its going to be a helluva 2 centuries. Muslim radicals are as bad as Christian Crusaders were, fighting in turn for their salvation. If they gain complete control in the Middle East, for sure they will assemble huge armies Hell ent on conquest.

SteveJ, you should really study world history a little more. The Crusades were Christians fighting back against the Muslim Invaders. Muslims had killed and conquered ,all the way to Europe. The Crusaders pushed them all the way back to the Middle East and then tried to set up Fortresses so the Christians could live without fear of being killed by the Muslim warriors. The history books distorted the facts and labeled the Christian Crusaders as the bad guys and Islam ,as the Religion of peace, the name still exist today. Seems kind of Hypocritical though, since they are the ones doing all the blowing up and killing, but then again, when we decide to fight back, we are labeled the war mongrel's and the bad guys.One thing is for certain though, if it were not for the Crusades, the whole world would be Muslim, they came that close and the fight still goes on today.

Joe, correct.

Muslims always rant and rave about the Crusades but never mention that this was a direct reaction to their own Muhammadan Cresades. Jews and Christians were living in Mecca for centuries before Islam was invented by the "prophet" Muhammad. Today, thanks to the followers of the warlord Muhammad, Jews and Christians are not permitted to go anywhere near Mecca and Medina.

Give me a beak Sir Vival. All 3 religions are different factions (really later editions) of the one-god movement and all of them were spread by the sword. Read some history. All 3 religions love to bitch about how illegitimate the other 2 are.

If it wasn't for the ignorance of their followers, religious conflicts wouldn't happen.

thank you yakfit for being informed unlike a good number of peopleon here.

Amazing what a little education can do huh? It's also amazing how ignorant religious people can be about their own religions.

Joe: WTF are you talking about?

You're lecturing others about needing to study history? Where did you learn this crap?

The Crusades occurred BEFORE the Muslims ever reached Europe. The Ottoman and Moorish invasions happened long after the Crusades. I highly suggest you brush up on Byzantine and post-Viking invasion European history specifically to understand why the Crusades happened. Might help you sort it all out.

The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after the capital of the Christian world, Rome itself, was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.

yakfit pull the joint out of your mouth turn on a fan a blow the smoke away so you can re-read your history books. Your history is backwards.

Joe, I am quite aware of happened during the Crusades. My point was to emphasize that the combatents were motivated by offers of guaranteed salvation by Popes Urban I and II, and of course money. Religious zealots often fight without regard for life given the rewards believed to be offered in the afterlife.

Yakfitguy, As Jim noted, your history is indeed backwards,

Your comment "The Crusades occurred BEFORE the Muslims ever reached Europe" is one of the most puerile statements of the century.

Fact 1: The Arabs invaded Spain in the year 711

Fact 2: The first Crusades occurred in the year 1095

Therefore, the Crusades occurred AFTER the Muhammadans invaded Europe, not before, as you falsely believe. In fact, nearly four centuries years LATER.

Have you ever heard of Charles Martell ("The Hammer") and his involvement in one of the world's most decisive battles when he annihilated the Muslim invaders in the Battle of Tours (or Poitiers)? The battle occurred somewhere in France and was fought in the year 732, exactly 100 years after the death of Muhammad. The following is an extract from the Encyclopedia Brittannica. Hopefully this will correct your misunderstanding of history, particularly the Muslim Cresades.

"Charles Martell (Latin CAROLUS MARTELLUS). He reunited and ruled the entire Frankish realm and stemmed the Muslim invasion at Poitiers in 732. His byname, Martel, means "the hammer."

"Ever since their arrival in Spain from Africa in 711, the Muslims had raided Frankish territory, threatening Gaul and on one occasion (725) reaching Burgundy and sacking Autun. In 732 'Abd ar-Rahman, the governor of Córdoba, marched into Bordeaux and defeated Eudes. The Muslims then proceeded north across Aquitaine to the city of Poitiers. Eudes appealed to Charles for assistance, and Charles' cavalry managed to turn back the Muslim onslaught at the Battle of Poitiers. After the battle there were no more great Muslim invasions of Frankish territory.

Battle of Tours, also called BATTLE OF POITIERS (October 732), victory won by Charles Martel, the de facto ruler of the Frankish kingdoms, over Muslim invaders from Spain. The battlefield cannot be exactly located, but it was fought somewhere between Tours and Poitiers, in what is now west-central France. 'Abd-ar-Rahman, the Muslim governor of Córdoba, had invaded Aquitaine (present southwestern France) and defeated its duke, Eudes. Eudes appealed for help to Charles, who stationed his forces to defend the city of Tours from the northward progress of the Muslims. According to tradition, the Muslim cavalry attacks broke upon Charles's massed infantry, and after 'Abd-ar-Rahman was killed in the fighting, the Arabs retired southward. There were no further Muslim invasions of Frankish territory, and Charles's victory is regarded as one of the most decisive for world history, since it preserved western Europe from Muslim conquest and Islamization."

Do you still believe the Crusades came before the Muslim invasion of Europe?

Tom , if what you say were true, the Egyptian people would not have elected the Muslim Brotherhood as President.The majority of the people actually back the president and his plan to implement Sharia law ,as the law of the land.

......HUH?

WTF,did he just say????

Don't be too harsh. The outburst of insanity is caused by the five-minute duration of fresh air before being escorted back into solitary confinement.

Don't feed the troll. Have pity

SEEAM60

take more drugs you aren't making sense

Except here the republicans/conservatives are the extremest trying to take power and rule through religion...

YES THEY ARE!!! Scarey isnt it???

Coming from an American who's tricked every 4 years into voting for one of 2 parties, who "protect your freedom". These people risk a hell of a lot every day to fight for representative government against almost impossible odds. They deserve our respect.

Read your American history. The early days of this democracy weren't exactly pretty.

It's easy to respect them for the fight they are taking on.

It's hard to respect them, when, after such a fight, they allow an Islamic fundalmentalist dictator to take over.

I have renewed respect for the people of Egypt again, for taking on yet another fight, so soon after the last one. But when will they ever learn? Religion and politics don't mix.

They weren't given a real choice. The Egyptian military banned all opposition candidates from running, except for 2:

Morsi and Mubarak's old PM. They were never allowed to vote for real change.

What were the people supposed to do? Oh yeah, they're doing it.

But when will they ever learn? Religion and politics don't mix.

You think we'd have learned that lesson by now...

The Islamic states rule and live by the same rules as there stone age for fathers, the 21st century is a concept beyond them just see how they treat women like live stalk, sorry live stalk are cared for better.

Read your American history. The early days of this democracy weren't exactly pretty

America is not a democracy...it's a republic..

No, this proves that not everyone living in Africa and the Middle East wants to live in the damned Dark Ages.

More power to the Egyptians, they're doing what we in America threaten to do, but never have the guts to follow through with.