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Subscribe to RSSGENEVA -- Atheists and other religious skeptics suffer persecution or discrimination in many parts of the world and in at least seven countries can be executed if their beliefs become known, according to a report issued Monday.
The study, from the International Humanist and Ethical Union (IHEU), showed that "unbelievers" in Islamic countries face the most severe -- sometimes brutal -- treatment at the hands of the state and adherents of the official religion.
But it also points to policies in some European countries and the United States that favor the religious and their organizations and treat atheists and humanists as outsiders.
The report, "Freedom of Thought 2012," said "there are laws that deny atheists' right to exist, curtail their freedom of belief and expression, revoke their right to citizenship, restrict their right to marry."
Other laws "obstruct their access to public education, prohibit them from holding public office, prevent them from working for the state, criminalize their criticism of religion, and execute them for leaving the religion of their parents."
In the United States, for example, where freedom of religion and speech is protected, a social and political climate prevails "in which atheists and the non-religious are made to feel like lesser Americans, or non-Americans," the report said.
In at least seven U.S. states, constitutional provisions are in place that bar atheists from public office and one state, Arkansas, has a law that bars atheists from testifying as witnesses at trials, the report said.
Atheist billboard hits snag in Hasidic neighborhood
"It is often not the case that when people hear of freedom of religion they interpret that in terms of the non-religious too," Bob Churchill, a spokesperson for IHEU, told NBC News. "This report shows clearly how people who mildly criticize religion may go on to suffer months or years in jail, even awaiting a death sentence."
The report was welcomed by Heiner Bielefeldt, U.N. special rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief, who said in a brief introduction there was little awareness that atheists were covered by global human rights agreements.
The IHEU -- which links more than 120 humanist, atheist and secular organizations in more than 40 countries -- said it was issuing the report to mark the U.N.'s Human Rights Day on Monday.
According to its survey of some 60 countries, the seven where expression of atheist views or defection from the official religion can bring capital punishment are Afghanistan, Iran, Maldives, Mauritania, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Sudan.
Forced to lie
The 70-page report lists no recent cases of actual execution for "atheism" -- but researchers say the offence is often subsumed into other charges.
Atheists bill big names for 'coming out' party in the capital
In a range of other countries -- such as Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Kuwait and Jordan -- publication of atheist or humanist views on religion are totally banned or strictly limited under laws prohibiting "blasphemy."
In many of these countries, and others like Malaysia, citizens have to register as adherents of a small number officially-recognized religions -- which normally include no more than Christianity and Judaism as well as Islam.
Atheists and humanists are thereby forced to lie to obtain their official documents without which it is impossible to go to university, receive medical treatment, travel abroad or drive.
In Europe, sub-Saharan Africa and Latin and North America, countries which identify themselves as secular give privileges to or favor Christian churches in providing education and other public services, the IHEU said.
In Greece and Russia, the Orthodox Church is fiercely protected from criticism and is given pride of place on state occasions, while in Britain bishops of the Church of England have automatic seats in the upper house of parliament.
NBC News' Rachel Elbaum and Reuters contributed to this report.
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Leave a Comment:
It's true! Atheists are the last group it is "o.k." to discriminate against.
I'm in the U.S. Army in Afghanistan. I've been in the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Air Force as well; all three branches of the Defense Department. I can assure you, the prevailing attitude of the U.S. military is "you will respectfully keep your atheist views to yourself and endure our theistic ceremonies in silence--or else."
Thank goodness for The Atheist Experience out of Austin, Texas and others on YouTube. Without their sanity, I don't know where I would be.
Greetings Captain,Yet another fine day in Afghanistan and looking forward to retirement(with reservations)in Febuary.That's all.As you were,carry on.
The problem atheists have in the military is one that needs to go to the supreme court. This is a clear violation of the constitution.
Unfortunately, I have some years to go before retirement myself, wolfhound27. Hopefully, the Army will put that 15-year retirement on the table and I can get my atheist but away from these loons in about 18 months.
Congratulations on your retirement though, Wolfhound27; I'm truly envious.
Ohhhh, the poor atheists can't testify....That's your big discrimination in America? Why don't you ask the African Americans what discrimination and persecution is? Ask the Jews what discrimination and persecution is.
What a pathetic politically correct article this is? As far as the muslim countries go, please keep reminding them of what true religious fanaticsm would bring them. Then maybe they won't whine so much over a plastic shephard in someone's yard at Christmas time.
Yeah well... some people make fun of me because I'm short. People are unkind to each other, religious and non-religious.
It's all about respecting people's right to choose to do, say and think the way they do. And judging from some of the atheistic general treatment of people who are religious, my response is "Cry me a river."
So you think it's okay that these peoples' constitutional rights are violated?
Retired with 32-years service and I can echo your sentiments. I was always creeped-out when commanders with checkered characters insisted on saying prayers at commander's call or at squadron social events. The worst I saw was when I would go to an on-base training office at 8am and would frequently be told that no business is conducted until 9am because of daily morning Bible study. When I deployed for Desert Storm there was a chaplain in the processing line, I jokingly asked him if he was taking CO applications, he told me it was his job to convince me I wasn't a CO (aka a God-fearing warrior).
Exactly right. Well said.
Paws93 said:
Per the article:
It's not that we can't testify, it's that we're treated like second class citizens. In a country that has freedom of religion, I still have to consistently lie about my religion to co-workers/bosses, family members, and even my doctors (why any of them need to know my religion is beyond me).
I respect your beliefs, please respect mine. And before you start chirping about "ohhh the atheists are always throwing their religion in our faces," remember that we deal with people pushing their religion on us all the time! Atheist/Agnostic does not mean "undecided", I'll leave you alone if you leave me alone.
Captain, i have reached mandatory retirement.i would love to sit down and chat with you sometime,perhaps even at the O club if we had one.(you know the deal)As for the strange things i saw?imagine what a vivid imagination can do in an abandoned old German castle.I wish there was a way to contact you but you know how tight security is overseas.I might even see you in the morning and not know it.sad to say i am at the age and rank where the average soldier avoids me like the plague.I would give almost anything to be a Captain again and a company commander.Lif is Short captain and so are careers.Enjoy.Please disregard any onery comments i may have made as i did not mean to offend you in any way, shape ,or form.I get a little stir crazy after a few too many meetings and briefings.If you see wolfhound27 on your OB in the morning i might be in the vic.P.S i will look into any reported descrimination cases that come my way.That's the best i can do for you at this time.
I have no problems with a persons choice not to believe. I'm not living their lives, it's not my business. The only thing I object to are these Atheistic organizations that attack the religious sector.
I mean if you want respect, you got to give it. To choose our own most scared time of year such as Christmas or Easter or Lent to decide to launch the most anti-religious campaign is just an intentional attack on our society. Other religions have complained of the same. To intentionally launch you're own verbal attacks on our religious beliefs and even mock it is pretty much the same thing. I recall in college there was this atheist organization that used to set up a booth on campus and launch nasty, name calling hateful attacks on the Christian organization. They would set up about 15 feet from a where a Christian organization set up to collect canned good for a local Ministries that helps families in need.
When the Atheist do it, it's called Freedom of speech, but the other way around it's a violation of their civil rights. You can't have it both ways.
Captain Jack Wigal-(It's true! Atheists are the last group it is "o.k." to discriminate against.)
Actually, that is not correct. Fatism continues to be practiced in this country openly and no one stands up to protest against those who engage in it openly. People can be refused jobs, let go, without any legal recourse because of their weight. Hollywood even makes fun of those who are obese. Picturing such folks as stupid,lazy, ugly,poor and deserving to be the butt of all jokes.
Sir, I'm not here for malicious purposes either. And I too apologize if I've said anything inappropriate.
I know what you mean about the human imagination. We have evolved, being the omnivores we are, to see patterns. Sometimes the available evidence, like in an old German castle, points toward a pattern that is not entirely accurate. That is why we must investigate further and gather more data to determine the truth. Richard Dawkins has spoken and written about this. I invite you to read his book "The God Delusion" which I believe every officer should read. If I ever make General (not likely), it will be on my reading list if for no other reason than to reinforce ones faith.
Again, I apologize for any untoward comments. They were not made out of maliciousness or harm.
Captain Jack Wigal - first, thank you for your service.
I can completely empathize with you. As a Jewish veteran, I saw enough Jew-hatred and anti-Jewish activity while on active duty (1979-84), including the delaying of my paperwork to be the Jewish lay leader at a small base in Mississippi by the Roman Catholic head of chaplains on the base for six months because he wanted everyone to go to some sort of Christian service. He couldn't stand the fact that there were Jews on based. I was more respectful of minority beliefs than this one particular chaplain.
Carolyn G
When the "religious sector" gets to determine what Constitutional Rights other believers or non-believers have in relation to the predominant religion (Christianism), well, yes, there is active pushback. No, we don't accept just sitting silently and pretending it's okay to declare that our is a "Christian Nation" and the rest of us need to live by that belief's laws.
Well put Captain,and i will attempt to locate and read your book suggestion.As you are well aware of the time it is that time for me to hit the sack.The ZZZZ monster has a grip on me that won't let go.Perhaps in the future, OPSEC will allow me to give you a further means to make contact so we could discuss this further and i could elaborate my story with the unknown.I will say this and it should NEVER be repeated.A certain young LT at the time was so scared that he dropped his weapon and SCOI and had to work up the courage to go back and get them.Fear can be a great motivater to do both great and foolish things.U4v06 out.
Carolyn G -- please explain to me why it is that YOU are entitled to preach your beliefs IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE, but atheists are required to stay quiet and not object? Has anyone prevented you from practicing your religion? NO. Has anyone prevented you from attending your church? NO. Has anyone prevented your church from displaying a nativity scene, or any other religious display, on it's own property? NO. Has anyone prevented you from displaying a nativity scene, or any other religious display, on your own property? NO. The problem only arises when you demand to have your beliefs supported and proclaimed by the civil government.
Good morning folks. As an atheist I do find religious holiday displays in government buildings and public schools offensive but I don't complain. I do not wear my "unbelief" on my sleeve. If a prayer is called for during a public function or ceremony I bow my head out of respect for the belief of others and wait for it to end. I costs me nothing. I think I am representative of my "unbelievers". We endure the public religious celebrations and respect their holidays for the good of all. It's not worth making a fuss. But the feeling of being "put upon" is still there.
What I object to most is the fact that the churches are largely tax exempt. So their property and great wealth goes untaxed and all of us, those of different faiths and the agnostic and atheist communities have to pick up the tab.
Church property and church income should be taxed like everything else. No free ride. We may have freedom of religion and I'd like to think we have freedom FROM religion but I certainly don't think we should have FREE religion.
Happy Holidays, in what ever manner you chose to celebrate the Winter Solstice.
Sorry windancersong, with the exception of those with medical conditions, being fat is a choice. Fat is a lifestyle. Let's be honest here, I have a very fat brother-in-law who has a very fat girlfriend. They are good people and are pleasant to be around. But the amount of exercise required to combat the effect of all the junk that they eat is more than a normal adult has time for in a day. So they don't exercise at all. When it's time to take out the trash they put it in the car and drive, about 50 feet, to the end of the driveway. Believe me, lazy is a lifestyle directly related to obesity. Life is very complicated and it takes a lot of effort to get exercise as an aging adult, of this I'm aware. However, eating a bag of potato chips is a far cry from denying God's existence.
Okay, this bothers me a little. It's similar to when Christians whine about persecution. In the U.S., at least, neither Christians nor Atheists have much to whine about. It's hard to be persecuted for a personal belief, unless you're shouting your personal belief to the world and trying to convince people to change THEIR personal beliefs.
And that's not even persecution. It's more of an exchange of ideas. Not always polite, but not persecution. Some people have mistaken the right to have their opinion with the right to have everyone listen or agree with their opinion.
Being an Agnostic myself, the only thing that's truly annoying is trying to convince religious people to argue facts and not beliefs. And although it's seriously frustrating to repeatedly explain the difference between those two, and the establishment clause, and what's considered credible evidence and basically teach civics 101, I wouldn't consider it persecution.
No way, everyone knows only Christians can have a persecution complex. :)
Atheists always have the big chip on their shoulder. If you don't believe in anything why do you care what others do? Tear down this nativity scene, no mosque celebration, turn off the Jewish candles, on and on.
You are being discriminated against for being community a-holes.................
It is human to persecute...hhmm...I mean...err.
The officer corps was always deeply embedded with Christian beliefs...enlisted less so. We used to have ceremonies at tank gunnery, with the Chaplain praying for God to help our arrows fly true. It was a little odd, considering the diversity of the unit.
Most people think that atheists have no principle to stand upon, but I think that untrue. Moses presented the Commandments as a law for his people but I find them as a personal guide for my own benefit. Of these, one of the laws of God, I'm not sure which, states that it is not a good idea to take up idolatry. To do that one must construct in one's mind an image of a deity. Since, images are made of the stuff of creation, any image of a supernatural being must be false. I'm unsure if this attitude is Atheism or Pragmatism, but whatever, it is not idolatry.
LOL
Yeah, we NEVER see Christians acting like a bunch of hateful morons. :D
Janet*******
Do you really still think you HAVE a constitution?
Stop listening to the news media, you're being brainwashed.
Well, I'm an atheist or a post-theist as atheist implies that I'm stubbornly refusing to believe in something that clearly exists which of course I do not believe. Entertainingly, atheism or lack of any religion is one of the fastest growing segments in the US and can out-weigh any of the factionalized religious groups in size. Which is to say there are more people who self-identify as Atheists than Catholics or Muslims or Orthodox Jews or Amish or any of the other "religious groups" individually.
And in reality, I'd bet there are plenty of people who call themselves Catholics or Lutherans or many other things that no more believe in a god than they believe in Santa Claus.
Freedom to do as you choose is always a more difficult position to defend than rabid fanaticism. It's much easier to say "my way or the highway" as the lady above so ably points out with her lack of understanding that freedom of religion does not allow to you co-op the government and make it a religious organization.
For all of you believers, ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION. Once more, ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION. It's not taking over anything because as an organization it doesn't exist. No one is putting money in the collection plate for Atheism. There is nothing organized to support it. It doesn't have a say or a voting block or a group of Atheist leaders speaking for it. Because if it did, there would be no religion in public places as it's the biggest unified group out there when speaking of theology or lack there of.
What is does have is a few individuals who fight things like "one nation under god" which was put in the pledge of allegiance in the 50's and should have been removed years ago. The United States is not "one nation under god". The founding fathers were quite clear on that point. It has people who fight cheerleader spouting passages from the Christian Bible while they play games funded with public tax dollars from people of all religions or non-religions.
And I wish someone would take on the "faith based" initiatives coming from Washington. It irritates me to no end to think my tax dollars are being used to push superstition and ignorance.
Excuse me, but I keep my lack of belief to myself. I don't trouble anyone else about their beliefs whether they be Christian, Jewish, Hindu or even Muslim. People who single out Atheists for any sort or discrimination deserve to have it back- but just the ones who support the discrimination, like this "Journaljournal" guy...
Thank God there's at least one sane person in this thread. It's at the point now that unless you're being unanimously applauded for your lifestyle and beliefs than you're a "victim" of "discrimination"...
I've never felt "lesser" because of being non-religious. Never. Not once - and I lived in the Bible Belt for a number of years as well. I have no idea what these quacks are talking about...
Seven2seven
Ah another true believer, thank you for demonstrating the tolerance and acceptance exhibited by most "believers" especially fundamentalist christians. I'm sure Jesus would be so proud of you, if he weren't dead and buried and beyond all caring.
Happy Holidays
So much for respecting people's right to choose huh? :)
Hypocrites like you are why Christians look like hypocrites. Say one thing and in the same sentence prove you're a hypocrite. Which I bet you don't see.
Just like Christians! And honestly, Journal Journal hit it on the head from my perspective. Stop being babies about it. You think you're the only group being ridiculed or chastised? Please. At the point you believe that, you're just selfish.
I can tell you integrity is a much more important asset than religion. Integrity is what counts when it comes to "holding office" "entry into a country" "employment" and what ever archeic laws that are still on the books.
Having no religion or no Gods does not mean you are inherently evil. Most if not all Christian churches would welcome an atheist through the door every Sunday for life even if they never became saved.
To act any other way toward non believers would not be Christian.
Atheism comes from the greek word Atheos, simply means "without Gods" has nothing to do with evil or hate.
The numbers don't lie... Liberals, atheists, and agnostics have made GREAT strides in this nation over the last 2 decades. Never in the history of this nation have their voices been as great as they are today.
As that portion of society gains in percentage, another segment takes losses to their percentage. The losses are within the Christian population.
In my opinion, this is a push to gain sympathy for the cause - putting an emotion on the face of this segment of society of sympathy - replacing hate. Dumbs down the resistance to what was formerly considered wrong.
By the way - are things getting better in this country, or are they getting worse? Guess it depends on who you ask...
The most SCREWED UP people I've ever known were DEVOUT CHRISTIANS. Atheists & Agnostics that I know personally tend to be intelligent, thoughtful, ethical, moral and not FEAR DRIVEN.
AGNOSTICS and ATHEISTS UNITE...the WORLD NEEDS MORE OF YOU (US)!!!
Geez Captain Jack... the indignity. You really sound like you have a horrible life... all these Jesus freaks tellin' you stuff. It must be horrible.
I feel for you Atheists havin' to listen to other people say things.
And the post above... complaining that the most screwed up people are the Devout... that may be true... but it's dumb to go around pointing out how stupid you think other people are. It does not win votes.
What you all really need to do is unite and grow a set of balls and quit complaining about stuff that doesn't _really— affect you very much (at least in the USA).
That being said... religion should be taken out of politics... had about enough of that...
... but I do not consider it a personal assault on my being that anyone believes anything.
How can I throw religion in your face when I don't believe in religion? There is nothing to throw.
The problem with this, is that some who are devoutly Christian attempt on a regular basis TO effect us, via legislation they attempt to pass. For example Personhood Amendments and DOMA. They use their beliefs to advance those types of bills.
In all honesty I don't see the opposite happening from Atheists. I've yet to see any substantive, intrusive legislation targeting their personal right to practice their religions.
Atheists could have their own holiday displays but it it would be empty garbage cans on grass that needs to be mowed. But they are probably the ones sleeping in tents outside BestBuy to get the Christmas specials.
@concerned;
@keytohate;
You miss the point. What does it matter what you are? How you treat me and how you act toward me is what matters. Your post does not help your cause there.lol
You see you lay down hate and critiscism. My door is open to anyone, just like the Ponderosa. You are projecting hate while promoting atheism, you are giving them a bad name more than you think you are supporting or helping. This behavior is what fuels the ignorant views of AtheistS.
Skip N. -
Jesus did not teach tolerance. He taught about repentance, turning away from the former ways without God, being "born again", loving God above everything - and loving your neighbor the same way. He taught about purity. He taught about being prepared (righteously) for the Master's return. He taught to love the sinner, but hate the sin. He taught to go and preach the good news of the Kingdom of God in all the inhabited world - as a witness to the nations - to give hope to a lost world. He taught to look after the lost and depressed - the abandoned and the prisoner - the hungry and the homeless - the orphan and the widow...
Jesus taught a lot of things, but tolerance of a life in opposition to God's word wasn't on that list... Christians may not get all things right as we are all sinners and fall short of righteousness on our own, but by the grace of God we do what we can to impact the world in a positive way.
Coral -
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-03-09/living/us.religion.less.christian_1_american-religious-identification-survey-christian-nation-evangelical?_s=PM:LIVING
This link shows another survey taken showing those identifying as Christian dropping from 86% in 1990 to 75% in 2009...
The problem here is, you don't stop to ask the world HOW you can help them, and when the world tells you to knock it off you're HURTING them, you don't always listen. Or when the sinner tells you what they need, you tell them they're wrong and you know better than they do. Because your belief is strong you assume to know what the world needs and fail to remember that your perception of those needs are based on a belief (not facts) that we're free from.
On my dog tags, NONE was stamped in the space for religious affiliation. Whenever I'm asked, I reply that I have no religious affiliation. I leave it up to the asker to guess. When I was in the service, I thought the strategy was to shoot, but not get shot, so therefore be able to shoot further accurately than they could shoot in return. The countries listed who discriminate against Atheists and Agnostics are Muslim countries, and they are out to cut each others throats for insulting the Prophet Mohammed, and the throats of Atheists would be an incidental number of who they consider infidels.
There is no shortage of non believers in the US. Whereas the Catholic Church, ( for instance ) would count the infants born into the church as adherents to the belief, a more reliable figure to count are those whom don't attend. Millions of old men ( of which I'm one ) go fishing and hunting, and only attend church for weddings and funerals, to make their wives happy. They throw some money in the collection plate, just like they throw money at their children and grandchildren, so they can go back to their fishing and hunting and be at peace in the outdoors. The people who wish to turn hunting and fishing into a religious outing, soon find that they are the ones who are denied valid information and will continue to be denied, since no accomplished fisherman wants a church group screwing up their "secret fishing hole".
This affects one's strategy. You don't want to be well liked if you want to catch fish. You don't want lots of people around your hunting blind. You don't want blabbermouths, whiners, those overcome with bouts of singing and praying. Put those people on a party boat and get them headed in a different direction. Those who develop public policy, who desire reliable information, thus seek out the information of the non religious, which perpetually keeps the religious, " a day late ". Preachers especially get duped. They are the ones who say, " I heard that two weeks ago the fish were biting at..." Guess what preacher, today isn't two weeks ago. Thus the non believer can use this human trait to his or her advantage, meet all sorts of highly qualified, educated, and talented folks of a broad spectrum of experiences and thoughts to choose from, and thus being discriminated against for your lack of religious beliefs is actually an advantage.
Bingo! But that doesn't stop them.
Good luck with that. Since the existence of God can neither be proved nor disproved, the argument itself is built on beliefs, not facts. For similar reasons, the argument over abortion will probably never be resolved. If you believe that life begins at conception, then abortion is murder. If you believe that life begins at birth, then abortion is morally equivalent to trimming your toenails.
The dreaded bubblegum double tap
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismreligionideology/Atheism_is_Not_a_Religion_Ideology_Belief_System_Philosophy.htm
I am a believer, and I believe that ones religion should be kept at church and your home.
That one drives me up a wall. If neither side can prove it, than neither side can dictate who can engage in it. That's why some are pro-choice, not pro-abortion.
If someone believes that life starts at conception, than DON'T have an abortion.
Interestingly, as an out spoken Humanist, I've not really experienced too much overt discrimination in my life so far. Though I'm not strident and rudely overt about my philosophy.
I make opinions about my non-religion known based on the circumstances I find myself in. Even to the point of explaining the derivations and origins of various judeo-xtian habits and peculiarities (blessing someone for a sneeze for instance). Usually though I just say "I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm not religious."
Basically, I see my place as a Humanist to be a voice of reason and to explain and sway those on the religion fence to a more realistic and guilt-free lifestyle. I've had quite a bit of success in taking a more subtle, informative approach.
I tend to practice what I "preach" in that I don't throw my beliefs in another person's face because I detest it being done to me. But wear your religion on your sleeve and act superior with your xtian, jewish, islamic silliness and I'll gladly match you word for word.
As for xmas (with it's Pagan Roman Winter Solstice/Constantine origins) and easter (with it's Saxon/Celtic origins - Estre), I've taught my kids the origins of these 2, and other religious occasions, and have redefined both to be secularized again in ways that allow us to participate without hypocrisy.
It's all about finding a balance and being patient which allows one to live in a country that is slowly becoming less religious and more enlightened. But it's also about standing one's ground in insisting on a secular governance.
I do not care if you are an athiest, or red,black,yellow,overweight,skinny, whatever. I just do not want you to get the government to force me to treat you better than anyone else. The very fact that we make laws to stop discrimination makes us discriminate. Laws that where written to stop discrimination against blacks has now become discrimination against whites. What I have experienced a lot of lately especialty since obama was elected is black racism against whites. Sick of all of it, and I am fearful this will come to a head at some point. The same thing is happenng with the homosexuals, if you want to get married, go to the courthouse and do it, why must you attempt to force Churches to do it. It is because you want special treatment, not equal treatment, thats why. Through out history there has been discrimination against some one or something and the attempt to force others to except is has done nothing but make them hate it even more. I am aChristian and I do not force my beliefs on anyone, if the subject comes up and someone asks me a question then I put my two cents worth it, until then the only way you would reconize my faith is through my actions. It is the other way around with athiest, thye want the government to take away my rights just to apease them, and that is discrimination.
Not true. We have laws that dictate who can engage in it. The people who make those laws have their own beliefs.
Agreed. I believe we are all responsible for our own choices, and the consequences of our own decisions. Make up your own mind, and let the fetuses fall where they may.
Have you ever been an atheist living in a Red State? A whole different life experience. I literally cannot run for office here and there are 9 other states where that law exists as well. That's blatant discrimination endorsed by the state. But of course neither could an acknowledged atheist ever win here either. Far better to put into office those who cling to ancient dogma. Because they are the ones to look to when it comes to making rational decisions. right? LOL!
Denver, Life begins at the first beat of that tiny little heart, just like yours did one day ,many years ago.
Vox,
A Muslim probably couldn't get elected either. Or a gay person. I get it, that law is dead wrong. There should be no religious tests for office. Period. But, relatively speaking, I wouldn't consider that persecution. The very fact that we can attempt to peacefully, overturn that law, WHICH WE SHOULD, in a higher court kind of automatically disqualifies it as persecution in my book.
Is anyone a Monty Python and the Holy Grail, fan? Discussions like this always make me think of when the knight is shaking the peasant by the back of his shirt, and the peasant starts screaming, "Help! Help! I'm being opressed!"
A NEWT? She turned you into a newt, you say? Great Scott- Yesireeeee bob! Yes, and these boards are full of them, for sure.
"Well I got better!"
The article has it right. Most people in the US don't like Atheist's. In the American south, open Atheist's are treated with as much hatred as Homosexuals. Non believers scare the hell outta these crazies. Non believers, like myself, generally have to grin and bear it. Once exposed, you have enemies, and actually, will suffer discrimination, or often worse. Why would this not be the case? The fundamental basis of all religion is the blessedness of hatred.
"It's a fair cop!"
When in doubt, you can always quote Monty Python. :-)
Happy Winter Solstice everybody.
Join the "Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers"
"MAAF welcomes you. Nontheistic service members serve honorably throughout the world -- always have; always will. However, nontheists are the last unprotected minority. Humanists, atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, or other nontheists have a home with MAAF. MAAF provides a unique service in building community for atheists and humanists in the military."
militaryatheists (dot) org
simple solution, for all Christians, Jews, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim,atheist's etc.; KEEP YOUR PERSONAL VIEWS TO YOURSELF, if you do not like Christians, don't hang around with them; if you do not like Jews don't hang around with them same for Muslim etc.; keep your personal beliefs out of your public life.
I've met both good and bad atheists. I can appreciate where they are coming from in separation of church and state and I hope they become better accepted. Having said that, I've known several who were JUST AS BAD as fundamentalist, evangelical Christians and, therefore, a royal pain in the ass. They caused far more problems then they solved. BTW, if you check the hate crimes report put together by the FBI every year you will find that atheists are way way way down on the list of the various groups who suffer from hate crimes. Come on, atheists...use that critical thinking that you so love to wave about. At least no one is dragging you out into a field and beating you to death with a tire iron in the USA. Think you have it bad outside the US? Try being the wrong tribe in S. Africa. It's tough all over outside of the states and you guys don't have the monopoly on persecution. Best wishes in your quest for equal representation and I'll even come out and support your protest but spare me too much whinning, okay?
Ah I see the religiously-tolerant evangelical Christians are out in force collapsing opinions they don't agree with. What a surprise. :)
Holy Grail...LOL!
"It is the rabbit."
Like I've said many times before, I would place more trust in someone that does good because it is the right thing to do, rather than someone that does good for fear of ending up in some sort of hell in some afterlife.
"Now we see the violence inherent in the system!"
Here's an idea:
You don't bother me about your religion, and I won't tear your deeply-held beliefs to shreds then laugh in your face about it while you cry to your imaginary friend(s).
Also, Sarah and all those others that say we're bitching about absolutely nothing as being Atheist in America is not punishable by law - except for all those instances which it is, of course (the Texas Constitution being one of them). I've got a question for you - who do you think is enforcing the separation of church and state? The fanatics? Yes, we have great guys like Rev. Barry Lynn on our side, but a huge chunk of the work involved (research, fund-raising, legal disputes, etc.) comes from atheists. Now, unless you are one of those fanatics who thinks it's a good thing we have "In God we Trust" on our money, or that kids can be forced to recite the pledge of allegiance, or that forced prayers in school are a good thing, or that it's a good idea to inculcate a sense of religious duty in our elected officials, or a thousand other things that have breached the separation of church and state, then maybe you should actually look at what's going on rather than blathering about subjects you haven't taken the time to understand.
"I fart in your general direction"
A religious test law is unconstitutional ... and when someone dares challenge it in one of those states, it will have to win. (see Religious Test Clause and Supremacy Clause in the Constitution).
Maybe (I do) but it's definitely discrminiation. For example, Plessy v. Ferguson (i.e. separate but equal)
Beth,
Discrimination, DEFINITELY. Persecution, Mehhh. Yeah, it for sure is unconstitutional, which makes me wonder why it HASN'T been challenged? Strange.
@keytohate;
Then why is it every time their is a story like this on the vine the only ones preaching hate and ignorance are the AtheistS. That is who is voting your biased post up.
How ethical and moral, and thoughtful is it to call people screwed up? You must not know yourself very well then. In the same post you insult, you talk about ethics and morals, and thoughtfullness.
Hypocrite.
Coral,
Come one. Are you honestly saying that the only one's who spew hatred on this vine are the Atheists? BOTH sides do it.
Coral Taxi...I was just sharing FACTS from my PERSONAL EXPERIENCES...are you per chance a
DEVOUT CHRISTIAN?
PEACE
@sarah/ key2hate;
Okay it always comes to this. Show me Sarah where a professed Christian on the vine has preached hate and intolerance toward atheistS or go off on atheists like the atheists do on Christians.
key you give me an example of one of your PERSONAL experiences. Let me tell you I have challenged hundreds to this question,as I have ben down this road before,and not one has answered to it,or given an example of how they were affected in anyway personally by a Christian.
Let me tell you true Christians do not judge,not our job to and I thank God for that. True Christians have no hate in their heart either. True Christians spread the word they do not force the word. We are not programmed to love God for "forced love" would make our creation a moot point.
The Christians of today are not the fire and brimnstone, cadillac driving , hellfire Christians of the past. Get a clue.
If you Christofascists weren't trying to use our secular government to impose your sharia laws on everyone, there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
The only reason there's pushback against you is because you think your cult should be in everyone else's life.
Good to know that the Catholic church and Mormon church - both of which fund anti-gay hate groups like NOM - aren't "true Christians". Same thing for Southern Baptists.....very good to know that they aren't "true Christians". And very reassuring that the folks of Arkansas aren't "true Christians" given that their constitution prohibits atheists from public office.
Just an FYI, you're employing the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
It is the religious encroachment into the governmental sphere which I consider out of bounds. Forcing religion into our National Pledge of Allegiance was extremely divisive and unnecessary. The attempts to overturn Roe v Wade are largely made based upon religious beliefs not required of our citizenry. A segment of the Christian population often expresses the feeling of being persecuted by the Separation between Government and Religion - but I think atheists face more discrimination and open contempt in this nation than they do.
Captain Jack,
Really? All them branches and you still haven't served long enough to have retired? Seems to me you've got ADD. It's either that or you're full of BS.
As a Christian, I have to say I'm saddened by other Christians who engage in the sort of behavior I'm generally seeing displayed here. Where one would think there could be open dialogue and we could set an example of what it means to be Christian, instead I see attacks against those who don't believe as I do.
I agree with the atheists and agnostics above in their frustration. I can't PROVE God exists any more than you can prove otherwise, so as Sarah says, the discussion becomes pointless. If I can show by the way I live my life that being a Christian is worthwhile then I will gain more converts than all the preachers and Bible thumpers in the world. If I go around trying to "save souls." I'll lose more than I gain. I won't engage in discussions about things that have no facts to support them unless the other party asks first. I too become frustrated with this when I hear fellow Christians rant on about the Genesis story and the supposed flood, and the list goes on and on.
The Founding Fathers were right to separate church and state. Any religion that needs the state's help to survive probably shouldn't survive. If something is of God it will endure, if not then what were we fighting for in the first place? Any time any group receives special distinction over other groups we lose the very freedom we hold so dear. We take the first step toward turning into Christian Taliban, and to my fellow Christians: DONT THINK IT CAN'T HAPPEN! It can and has in the past. Abuse of power is not unique to Muslim dictators. Atheists could also fall prey to abuse of power, too, but I'd tell my fellow Christians to look in the mirror before casting any stones at the Muslims.
CarolynhG:
okay. But have you forgotten about when your people try to force yoru religion on us? Or is that different?
Ah, Coral Taxi, the No True
ScottsmanChristian argument. I get it, now.My grandfather-in-law tried to use that same argument against me. He was moaning about the Park21 Mosque and Islamic Center, and how we couldn't let them build it because the Muslims blew up the WTC. I said by the same logic, you have to outlaw all churches around Oklahoma City, because Timothy McVeigh was a Christian. He said "no, he wasn't a TRUE Christian, because a TRUE Christian wouldn't do something like that." I said, "Well, there are a whole lot of Muslims who say the same thing about the guys who blew up the WTC. Why are you telling them they can't have their mosque?" He actually looked thoughtful for a minute, but I doubt it stuck.
Let me fill you in on a little something. Do I think I'm being persecuted? No. Nobody's trying to round me up (except those crazy wingnuts that want to form registries, while crying out that the government is doing the same thing, but that's another story). Nobody's out to kill me (that I know of) because I'm an atheist. But I am being discriminated against. I can't hold public office (at least until that clause of the Texas Constitution is removed), I face culture predominantly controlled by privileged Christians who want to keep their power, and almost any time I see an atheist stand up for their rights, like Jessica Alqhuist, the religious community in general @!$%#s all over them, then the doormat, then the carpet, then looks at me like I'm supposed to say, "It's okay, I still think you should have the government spout your beliefs at the expense of all the non-Christians in our country, you poor, poor thing."
You're privileged in many ways that you simply take for granted. Hence, why it's called privilege. Hell, when you spout some ignorant-ass remark like "It's only the AtheistS that say bad things on Newsvine (yeah, just by the remarks made daily and the sheer number and the statistics of our population, you're dead @!$%#ing wrong on that one, unless, as you attempt to, you redefine Christian to mean "Only people who say nice things"). And then, AND THEN, you have the temerity to scream "PERSECUTION" when your privilege is exposed and then revoked. That's what the right wing nutjobs do every single day. "War on Christmas," or "War on Religion," or whatever you want to call it, it's a @!$%#ing joke, spread by people who have no sense of history OR irony (if they had a sense of irony, their heads should've exploded by now). When I see two stories, one about religious nutjobs firing an openly atheist teacher, the other about a nativity scene being removed (or, horrors, accompanied by scenes from other religions or humanists or atheists) and the Christians cry persecution? Yeah, which one am I going to see as persecution? Hmm?
In other words, @!$%# you and your privilege. You want to throw invective my way? Don't worry, I can take it. I've had to develop a thick skin. But I won't be quiet. I refuse to bow my head, even for my own family. You think you stand a better chance?
"I do not wear my "unbelief" on my sleeve. If a prayer is called for during a public function or ceremony I bow my head out of respect for the belief of others and wait for it to end. I costs me nothing."
I respect the rest of what you've written, but this just seems unpleasant. You shouldn't have to bow your head. You shouldn't feel like your promotion is in jeopardy simply because you didn't bow your head. It does cost you something: a sense of dignity and the integrity to act as you feel is right and be respected for it. Head bowing is a medieval practice that does not [force] but it does [pressure]. As an atheist myself, I KNOW that if I announced my disbelief, my family would no longer have anything to do with me, and I would be targeted by the uber-religious people in my community. It happened to my brother.
I have to disagree with you on that. McCarthyism was built upon a foundation of persecuting atheists, "communists" and gays. Lots of people including atheists lost their careers because of that persecution. And it still exists, especially in the bible-babble states of the south. Only recently has "atheist" been anything but a slur.
The fact that our laws can be peacefully changed isn't relevant to the fact that such persecution exists and is perpetrated both by the government and by society at large.
Coral Taxi,
Are you serious?
Here's one where a professed Christian attempted to say Jesus would use the word fag and told us we were going to hell. Start on comment 2.
http://world-news.newsvine.com/_news/2012/12/09/15791843-were-so-proud-same-sex-couples-wed-in-washington-for-first-time?threadId=3625883&commentId=72497635#c72497635
Here's one where a professed Christian tried to justify "wetback". Start on comment 4.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/01/14170052-california-governor-brown-vetoes-bill-that-allowed-towns-to-release-undocumented-immigrants
See also, ANY COMMENT VINE. Abominations, satanists, ignorant, stupid, yada, yada, yada. Open your eyes, my friend. These are the same people who call themselves Christian.
Timothy1Mil
N.Serling
Walter Oreilly
Logic Rules
3Thirty3
Seven2seven
I could go on forever. Either you're the most willfully blind person in the history of the world, or you don't read a lot of comments. Now you may claim they aren't "real" Christians, but that too is SUBJECTIVE. They carry the Christian banner and it is not up to you to decide who is "real" and who isn't.
Irony
when the bullets start flying and their life is in danger... all the atheists start crying out "GOD HELP ME"
they know deep down in their soul that there is a God... and they are in need of His help.
Utter nonsense. Sounds like you're rather insecure in your own faith and need to believe that other people have the same imaginary friend you do, and have the same irrational compulsion as you do to believe in fairy tales.
Coral Taxi...I have many examples, so where to begin? My mother was a DEVOUT Southern Baptist CHRISTIAN who went to church every week, read the bible constantly and often pointed out who "The Sinners" were. She beat me and my other three siblings unmercifully until we were in our late teens. When we got big enough to fend for ourselves, she bullied us emotionally and all throughout our adult lives, that is until recently. I have cut off ties with her because she is TOXIC and a TRUE STUMBLING BLOCK of what real Christian Love and compassion should be. Neighbors we knew that cheated on their spouses, beat their children, lied, stolen etc. were the first ones in the church on Sunday mornings.There have been countless wars and murders justified in the NAME of GOD, so please, live in the REAL WORLD and know that I stand by by first and second comments. PEACE
I'm Catholic and personally I have no problem with atheists voicing their beliefs nor do I have a problem with athiest. The only time I have a problem with someone's beliefs is when they attack someone else's beliefs. And I'm not saying that atheist are not discriminated against I know they are just as some cathlolics, Jews, Musliums, ect. are.
"I BELIEVE in God, only I spell it NATURE"
Frank Lloyd Wright
My sentiments EXACTLY!
@sarah;
Nothing of what you showed me shows anyone railing on atheists as they rail on us.I did not see the word fag mentioned anywhere , or where anyone told you you would go to hell could you give the exact post number?
If this is the best you can do you have failed so far.
You have not given one example here, where a professed Christian is railng on an atheist. Show me where the word stupid is used, or satanist, you will not you are making stuff up now,a list of names is not proof. Put it in quotes and guide me to it.
@key;
First off I am sorry to hear what you went through. Your only example is your mother? Let me tell you if she was beating you unmercifully she did not have Christ in her heart, no matter how much she would of liked to think so.
You have been jaded by hypocrites.
These people did not truly have Christ in their heart. If you knew all this was going on others must have known, how did you have all this knowledge of adultery, and thievery at such a young age?
Your comments do not stand . I have shown you that you insult then talk about thoughtfullness and ethics in the same post . very hypocritical.
These are truly not devout Christians you use as example. My point to you is that a true Christian will accept you for what you are without question, they do not force their ways upon you. Your momma dont really count,although I will accept it as a personal experience.
If your mom is the best example you have then I do not believe you have made your case that all devout Christians are screwed up. Mainly because you have not mentioned any.
@janstince;
I do not believe so. Show me where Muslims say that it was not Islamist that did this. You are kidding yourself.the Islamist way calls for fatwahs and jihad. Not a fair comparison by any means.
As a true Christian you do not blow up people and nurseries then claim Jesus.lol Sorry to inform you it does not work that way.eg A serial murder in the electric chair can not claim Christ as his saviour at the last minute and be accepted into heaven, for the sole pourpose of going to heaven.
Many atheistS use this logic to mock our religion. This logic is very flawed and they are mislead.
I never said that.Do not put quotes on something I did not say!
I said atheistS hate on Christians and others religions far more than Christians rail on them on these vines. Go through this whole vine and find a hatefull derragatory remark by a Christian. I have not looked but I bet you can not.Now go through and count the one against Christians,not disagreements, hateful remarks like "all devout Christians are screwed up".
Now without digressing give me your example.
Coral Taxi...YOU ARE...CASE CLOSED!
I once had a teacher that challenged the class on what was keeping him from lying, robbing, raping, and killing if it were not for God's judgement.
He was not amused when the majority of us answered, "the police."
@key;
So you can not defend your saying "devout Christains are screwed up" post as not being hypocritical?
The same breath you call a certain people screwed up, you speak of ethics and thoughtfullness coming from the agnostics and atheists. This does not ring of hypocrisy?
Yes case closed your biased rude insult has no merit. I do not care if a 1000 atheistS vote it up.
We're not hating on Christians, we're hating on the Christofascists who thump their bibles, stuff their religion down other people's throats, and try to use the government to impose their Christian sharia laws on everyone else.
If you're not doing any of that there shouldn't be a problem. Maybe you Christians need to read Matthew 6:5:
Coral: The whole idea of any religious group telling another "they are going to hell (deserve punishment, torture, and horror everlasting) for unbelief or wrong belief" is a constant irritant. Nothing on any series of blog posts combined comes close to offsetting this ingrained rudeness. Those believers who incorporate this sentiment into their core system often feel they are doing a favor by pointing this out to others, but this need to insist their own belief upon others 'for their own good' only contributes to the feeling of negative intrusion. The main complaint arises due to the constant encroachment by religious organizations into government, but the underlying 'holier than thou' attitude doesn't win friends either.
@sarah; You see not one quote or example. I read the posts all over the link you provided,not one says what you say it did. Show me the post where a Christian calls an atheist a "fag", or where they say you are going to hell, or calls you or any atheist stupid.
You nor key(with the exception of his momma)lol have offered any example where a Christain has railed on you as atheists rail on Christians here.
Immigration? bit of digreesion doncha think.
Here just off this first thread.....
Now 5 to 0. I did not even have to leave the page, or drag my mom into it.
It's hard to imagine how I ever got the idea after reading some of your postings is it? :)
@jansstice/sarah;
Back up at least one of the things you accuse others of saying.
Jan, show me where the Muslims say this that left your grandpa or whoever speechless, Just show me a quote where they say Islamist were not responsible.
You thought you were so keen with this but it has no backbone.lol
Sarah; Show me where a Christian called an atheist "fag" or "stupid", I could not find it where you lead me and I looked pretty well.
Or just disappear knowing you did not back your talk up, per usual.
@jeff;
I am never hateful,it is not in my nature. I just do not idly sit by and let ones like you spew falsities unabated about my faith. I also always win the point that atheists can be more hateful than Christians. I have provided 5 examples of hate, you guys have shown none.
You neither will give example of anything I have said that is hateful. You are just being cynnical and sarcastic.
My posts ring true. Not one has denied them . Sarah says all these things were said but does not show and prove with the links she provided, yet she will get voted up by atheist that are against me.
Hypocrisy at its best.
Coral,
Bull@!$%# you read those posts, because they're clear as day. Go ahead, EVERYONE read them. But since you're struggleing, Coral, here you go...
2.71.../
http://world-news.newsvine.com/_news/2012/12/09/15791843-were-so-proud-same-sex-couples-wed-in-washington-for-first-time?threadId=3625883&commentId=72497635#c72497635
2.77...
Same article.
2.78, 2.81, 2.88
Should I keep going???
Oh, and I think I found my answer. It's willfully blind.
Upp, here's some more. Oh so loving, from the Christian Randy EK.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/08/15776286-on-gay-marriage-supreme-court-could-rule-narrowly-or-issue-sweeping-decision?commentId=72478097#c72478097
Should I keep going?
Or, here you go, you really want a chuckle??? Read some of these puppies. Trust me, there are PLENTY based on religion...
http://www.newsvine.com/_tools/authors/usercomments
— ronaldbhull
—
— captcrash-1804989
— kmac46
— Washwolves
— Time2go-6339695
— laughingtoo
— nate54
— D Corcoran
— TruthBeTold-3835554
— montanajellyman
—
—
— Zen Go
— Zen Go
— Zen Go
— Zen Go
— Lisa-2951679
— JC-3521398
— Matthew-2771918
— Karens2583-6028933
— JOHN-3668646
— ptwa
— hg377
— Jason Neace
— jack bradford
— FlyNavy-2967039
— wtfever12
— shygirl4962
— SWATT
— BarrettaPatriot
— Snohomish22
—
— Lauren-2601308
— B-5499337
— Michelle Lipsius Falkovich
— Jack- O
— J R Browenstein
—
— Skywise89
— Terrance Hill
— JOHN-4083083
—
— John Smith-369185
—
— getreal-2408887
— getreal-2408887
— remy-2451599
— Jack6205
—
— joelS-3106477
Your need for keeping score is childish and your tone is nasty. Very unchristian. I never said atheists aren't nasty too, just that SO ARE CHRISTIANS. Plus, Atheists aren't the ones claiming to have the market cornered on compassion and good deeds.
Or is it only hating on Atheists that you care about. Hating on everyone else, that's just fine???
Coral,
Here's another one for you...
Coral appears to be willfully ignorant. Either that or she's so far down the religious rabbit hole that the hate Christian extremists spew sounds like love to her.
You are seriously kidding yourslef and have digressed off the earth .
I am talking about Christians hating on atheists, not gay bashing,or immigration. I aksed you to show me this and right off the bat you show something out of context which makes the rest of your "quotes suspect.
This is hating on atheist? lol This is about gays.lol
He is quoting someone else not hating on you. Telling you Jesus loves you is hating? You only used the part of this post to fit your needs, and quoted it way out of context. So fail
Then he goes on to say this is not his way as Karens.
Coral,
Oh, so like I said above, hating on everyone else is okay and Christian. I'm starting to see. And using "fag" is okay. I get it.
The part that was from Karen's was this...
The fag part and the gay enabler part was all his, but that's okay because it somehow is telling me Jesus loves me. But Jesus hates fags??? Even if he did, wouldn't Jesus find a more loving way of addressing them?
So basically, anything hateful is no longer hateful if a professed Christian says it. Must be nice to have that kind of pull.
And, ahem...
But that's not hateful anymore either, because a Christian said it. So it's just them telling us Jesus loves us. Really, you're the best advocate for my position I could ask for.
Answer me this...
Is "fag" a hateful word?
Did Walter use it?
Does Walter identify as a Christian?
This was not in post 2;77, and 2;77 was written by an atheist,here is part of it. I think you are tired Sarah. You are quoting atheists words to show Christians hate on atheists, which even aftervthousands of words really have not proven. The only thing you have proven is you copy and paste to your liking, and not in the true context. I have shown this in your first two examples
2;77
See you are quoting atheists. Get some rest Sarah.I did take the time to read it since you took the time to post all of this. But you strayed from the original point
Oh, so like I said above, hating on everyone else is okay and Christian. I'm starting to see. And using "fag" is okay. I get it.
No it was not, he says right here quote from Karens post, how do you say it is all his?
Do you just ignore the parts that do not fit your thought?lol
Everyone else does not concern me, my faith being insulted is what concerns me.I do not think anything derragatory toward another is o.k.
Coral,
You're talking in circles. I can't be quoting out of context, because I provided LINKS to the entire conversation.
Also, you didn't answer my question...
Is "fag" a hateful word?
Did Walter use it?
Does Walter identify as a Christian?
Nor did you address this...
Nor did you address this...
Oh, so like I said above, hating on everyone else is okay and Christian?. And what do you mean, I'm quoting atheists? I'm quoting myself and professed Christians. Where have I quoted an atheist?
P.S. Have you ever considered that it isn't your religion PER SE that atheists have a problem with, but how some of your fellow "Christians" USE that religion?
You used post 2;77 for an example. I showed you his words in post 1;112. Then you posted things that were not even in that post.
You have quoted one radio host that was mad because atheists were messing with Christmas.
Is fag a hatefull word? Yes if you are not asking for a cigarrette. So what. The poster was quoting karen,not hating on you one bit.
What are you talking about? Who said that?
You put quotes on your post here that were out of context,leaving other parts out that show they were not hating.
Coral,
I'm saying that because of your callous disregard for all the other types hatred Christians spew. You only seem concerned about that directed at Atheists, but there are soooo many more ways in which they spew hate. But you just don't want to hear about that, huh? Because than you may have to admit you ain't all that perfect.
And, I think you're confused. It was WALTER that used the word fag. Find me Karen anywhere on that vine. That's why the part about "gay enabler" and "fag" comes AFTER he says "quoted from Karen". In fact, he directly used my name...
Like I said, all AFTER he quoted Karen. Who obviously is a Christian too, if you look at the part before he denotes that he's quoting her. So either Walter the Christian said it or Karen the Christian said it. Regardless who did, they were Christian and it is hateful.
But you can just go ahead and read ALL of Walter's posts...
http://walterporeilly.newsvine.com/
And Randy's
http://randyk-2.newsvine.com/
How about this one...
http://holubknows.newsvine.com/
But none of that matters, right?
Okay, so being violent and hateful is just fine if you mess with Christmas. You have an awful lot of excuses. It doesn't count if it's against anyone but Atheists. It doesn't count if someone messes with Christmas. It doesn't count if they're trying to tell you what Jesus wants.
Here's a thought. Perhaps you all are no better and no worse than the rest of us. In fact the mere fact that you refuse to acknowledge the humanity of those who participate in your religion is prideful and unchristian in and of itself.
Of course this is what I was talking about in my first post. When something is in the religious realm it is ruled by belief, not FACT, so no amount of them can ever prove to you any point, because all you have to do is "believe". So go ahead and "believe" that Christians are never hateful. Your posts alone are showing how they are.
I did not say the radio guy did not count. That is the only one I give you credit for. Even thought the host targeted them more for their actions than being atheist.
The rest you show is gay bashing,and immigration, digression. I have shown you 5 examples just out of this vine where atheist are hating on Christians. You had to dig for your argument, which is still flimsy at best.
A true Christian does not have hate in their heart, which is one of the first points I made. I do not just believe this, I know this.
I also made the point an atheist would be welcomed in church for life every Sunday even he/she never became saved. You can not argue this. The same can not be said of some atheists, as is proven here on this vine today. Christians are much more accepting of atheists than vice versa.
You see janstice disappeared as most others that could not back up just one thing I asked them to. Sometimes you go off the map, but most of the time we are in agreement on other things, and I admire your tenacity to make your point.
Jeff tried this alsout could not back it up when asked,where have I been hatefull?
Coral,
It doesn't work this way. You don't get to write off everyone who says anything hateful as "not Christian". They carry the banner of Christianity, they practice Christianity, they justify their actions with Christianity. They may not be practicing it how YOU feel is appropriate, but they're STILL practicing it, and YOU don't get to decide who counts and who doesn't. It's their choice to be Christian and carry that banner, NOT yours.
Really, you've been to every church, of every sect of Christianity? You're making these broad generalizations and then if something doesn't fit in them you disqualify it as "not truly Christian". Like I said above, it doesn't work that way.
Like I also said above, have you ever stopped to consider that it isn't the religion they have a problem with, but how some of you USE it?
Coral -
I'm back. You see, I have this thing called a job, which says it's okay for me to post on here once in a while, but I'm not obsessing over you.
Sarah put plenty of evidence in your face. As for muslims disavowing the 911 perpetrators:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_20-6-2004_pg3_7
There. One reference. I read others around the time. Partly, it's a defense mechanism, where they claim that they are not like those people in order to keep the bigots (like you, @!$%#), from painting them all with the same brush. Partly, it's just that they don't see things the way the jihadists do. They feel that Islam is a religion of peace and order, and are more concerned with living a good life, raising their children, and yes, *gasp* helping the poor. Hrm, why does that sound familiar?
And, since you mentioned it, your bible is full of bull@!$%#. Jesus claims he brings not peace but a sword, in order to kill the Pharisees and hypocrites who spout holy crap but don't follow the law of the Torah themselves. If you say the Old Testament is relevant (if you want to see a shining example of crazed Christian double-think, ask them how relevant the Old Testament is), then we can go back to the thousands of people that the Jews supposedly slaughtered while finding the home that "God promised them." The nature of the ridiculous laws (no, there are no 10 Commandments, there are over 500, and each one crazier than the last to people born in this day and age) created to enforce tribalism (hence why almost every one, the most notable exception being rape, is punishable by death) and ringing with the "corrupt youth" meme that so scared a generation of people in the US that they bowed to a young fascist named Joe McCarthy. It goes on and on and on, the bigotry and outright lies and hatred in the bible, even in the New Testament. And of course, there's the misogyny, the endorsements of slavery, hatred of homosexuals and "perverts," hatred of anything sexual even (very clear in "Paul's" letters, and moreso in Timothy's (who probably actually wrote Paul's letters, too)). No, Christianity is in no way clean itself. Many of it's followers are good people, but the religion itself is as vile and bigotted as it was 1600 years ago when it was created.
And no, I'm not a big believer that "Christianity has been tamed," unlike many atheists. The resurgence of the fascist agenda under the guise of the Tea Party, led by religious leaders and imbecillic bobbleheads, with plenty of morons in the following, has convinced me that no religion is sane enough to play the "live and let live" card for very long without a good, sound spanking every once in a while. But, I don't pretend that one religion is particularly better than another. Maybe better at hiding it, but the power brokers and demagogues absolutely love a system of beliefs that is specifically built to bypass logic through faith, because once you bypass logic, then many people are too stupid to realize what you're doing until it's too late to stop you.
@janstice;
Umm no she didnt. I asked you not her anyway. You are just making excuses because you can not show me where Muslims say that it was not Islamist that attacked the towers, in the same vain I say true Christians do not hate. FAIL
The link you provide does not say this either. The article states conspiracy theories and blames the U,N and U.S .lol The article says that not all Muslims are terrorist,nowhere does it sate the 9/11 attackers were not Muslim. Like Sarah you digress and do not stick to the main point.
Name calling shows I struck a nerve and that you are losing the argument. You are completely off point here. This is just a Muslim seprating himself from Islamist extremist,nowhere does it say the were not true Muslims. Fail fail fail.
Not hardly many churches are mixed. Like I said an atheist would be welcome every Sunday at most any church even if he never becomes saved. You call Christians "vile" do you see how you project much more hate in your post than I?
Coral Taxi -
Actually, name-calling is just my typical MO. If you think that's name-calling, you should see me when I'm actually angry.
And also, you'll notice that I didn't say that all followers were evil, I said the religion itself is bigotted and vile. The truth is, the Phelps clan is closer to the spirit of Christianity than most other Christians today. You just haven't read your holy book for comprehension, apparently.
And no, I don't accept that you get to determine who is and is not a "True Follower." For instance, the Catholic Church dogma holds that anyone not Catholic is not a True Christian. But, you say that people who do evil things are not True Christians. To me, it seems that, since Christianity (at least, as I've been told by others) is a religion of forgiveness for sin and such, then the Catholics probably have a better definition for defining Christianity than you. Therefore, you are not a Christian.
See how that works? Or do you need smaller words?
Try being from an outside religion, like Wicca. One must be very careful or one will find herself looking at the stake and pyre in front of her house. So much evil exists in today's world, and most of it is fueled by forcing belief systems, religions, and other personal demands/preferences upon others. Just the mention of being different can cost one her job, her friends, or even her family. Forcing religious beliefs on others is despicable.
BTW, just as an aside, morality is not religion.
Well, you guys did kill Nicholas Cage in that movie!!
Yup. As a hereditary Druid who also incorporates aspects of Lakota beliefs, I have to hide my spirituality from people in my community. Living in Virginia (which is a beautiful place to live in terms of scenery), I can't be open. I also faced incredulity when I tried to explain that I couldn't enroll my then-toddler in daycare because the only day cares that didn't charge an arm and a leg were in Baptist or Methodist churches. Literally IN the church. I also can't let my child's school know my spirituality for fear that my son will be discriminated against, harassed or mentally abused by teachers or fellow students.
Those Christians who proclaim a "war on Christians" have no clue what a real "war on religion" looks like. They can live openly and profess their beliefs openly without fear of reprisal. I can not. I can't even let people know that my child is being raised with a broad religious education that encompasses more than just Judeo-Christian teachings. They would see me and my child as "godless" - the gods know my Mother-In-Law certainly does and she knows me and knows that I am a very moral person who accepts that her path is just as valid as mine and vice-versa. I even have allowed my son to go to Sunday school and church with her because it makes HER happy.
I'd suggest you move out of Virgina. It doesn't sound like the place for you. How sad for you and your child to have to hide what you believe.
No doubt, but it isn't a contest. Religious based discrimination is bad no matter which group it is being discriminated.
The first paragraph is opinion, and the same opinion could be said of ANY group, especially those of eastern religions. The second paragraph points to archaic laws that are not enforced anywhere in the US, and in fact there are hundreds (if not thousands) of these archaic laws on the books all over the US that are not enforced. To use them to try to prove a valid point shows how much one must be grasping at straws. This is what passes for journalism today.. You start with a point you want to make, and then you twist and manipulate even the most feable data to support it, throw in some opinion-as-fact, and send it to MSNBC so they can give it a glitzy headline and post it.
Mj, where would you suggest we move to? And why should we move? Why don't the ones with the issue of my/our religion move? After all, their "purity of belief" is so important to the them, you'd think they'd leave to protect it. Instead, they cause hardship and fear for their adamant opposition to "different" beliefs. (I get very tired of the incessant lies about me, too. I swear, I have never harmed, killed or eaten a baby [or anyone else]; sacrificed on a bloody altar; or raped, pillaged or killed in the name of religion.)
Hal, I didn't mean to make it sound like a contest. Sorry you took it the wrong way.
Bruce, you are correct, but the laws are still on the books, and some folks are real big about enforcing such laws just so they can win an argument. Been there, done that. It's sad that some are so desperate to force their personal beliefs against others. (I'd prefer that we would all just be happy, no matter how we believed. But that's just me.)
Atheists, stand tall. SOMEONE has to be logical, reasoned thinkers. Can't expect that from the doe-eyed simpletons that watch the 700 Club, pray to nothing, and will believe anything said to them repeatedly, whether or not it makes sense for a modern world.
Hey folks, A little bit about the IHEU:
Now if this report was from an independent organization, it would carry more weight than from an organization that represents a secular " embracing..., atheist."
The report does have some good points but I have to question the source the report comes from, not to mention the timing of the report (during the holiday season).
Link to the report:
http://www.iheu.org/files/IHEU%20Freedom%20of%20Thought%202012.pdf
Link to thier site:
http://www.iheu.org/about
Why question the source and not the points? That doesn't seem to make sense. If the points are valid, then the source is irrelevant.
Afterall, it is the SOLE international secular humanist organization. It's their job (they make no secret of it) to represent the interests of an ever growing percentage of the world population, and to speak out against theocratic policies worldwide.
You are an idiot. That is no different than me saying I should expect to find a cross burning on my lawn.
Wiccan is nothing more than Judea-Christian rituals long expired and picked up by people pretending it's not Christian based.
So if I understand you correctly, if the Baptist Leadership Council or the Catholic Ecumenical Council published a report that Christians worldwide and nationally are being discriminated against and persecuted, we should dismiss the reports because the organizations "embrace" Christianity?
"Well, you guys did kill Nicholas Cage in that movie!!"
He got better.
Actually there is discrimination against atheists. I have never heard of an avowed atheist being elected president, have you? People who are president are almost required to be seen at some church, especially in their first term. I wonder how many of our past presidents were closet atheists, I'd be wiiling to bet there have been alot of them, and probably the smartest ones to boot.
There is a negative correlation between education and a belief in "God". The more educated a person is, the more likely they do not believe in God.
Wow, being anything now days a person can face discrimination, persecution.... Take Whites for example. They just can't stroll in the ghetto now can they? NO! Takes blacks, they just can't walk in certain places in the deep south can they? NO! Take Christians and Jews. Can they picnic at Mecca for a fun day out, perhaps play Frisbee? NO!
Now it's the poor Atheist's who are being prosecuted? Really NBC?
Must be a really Slow news day NBC... Whats wrong? No Obama Photo opp today with him either bowing to or hugging someone who hates America?
ForPeace80, acutally many or most Judeo-Christian beliefs, practices & ceromonies are base on old religions like WICCA. The so call snake St Patric chased from Irelan was the people who kept to the old blieifs. Halloween & Christmas same thing. Muslims bow to the east to pray as those religions which worshipped Sun Gods. Catholic kneel before idols to pray, they even make saints out of dead people for more idol to kneel before & praise eventhough their own bible states, Thou shall not bow down to idols/false gods.
Man made gods to control the masses through fear & ignorance & raped the earth to fill their lust.
Give me an AMEN DKJ ( Hee-Hee)
Ahhh, without religion Kings couldn't control people is more like it. People could rise up and kill the King/ Caesar/ Kaiser or whatever name you want to call the leader. Kings figured out that the written laws of God/god couldn't be couped or easily terminated.
It was a way of binding people together and thereby create a culture under law. Not man's law but God/god's law. The King then became the instrument of that law. If you killed the King, the law would always still remain.
You have to remember that you can't govern much less rule lawlessness. Even today, imagine here in the US if murder, theft and rape weren't against the law because there is no law.
Obviously, religion wasn't or isn't a perfect instrument from which to create laws but at that time man had nothing better from which to create organization out of chaos!!!
You act as if we, man, always knew... Well, we didn't!!!
You heard it here... Straight from the DAWG!!!
I dont believe santa is real but I dont go around spoiling it for the kids. Analogy works on multiple levels. ;)
I am OK with being dissed by those that believe in the magic-guy-in-the-sky but what turns my crank is that they INSIST ON MAKING ME PAY FOR IT. In these days of tight finances, why do I have to pay for the services the great big gilded churches get and refuse to pay for? If they can afford the great big buildings, they should DARN WELL be able to cover the fire department, police protection, roads, you know SERVICES that we as tax payers pay for.
AND THEN they have the unmitigated gall to break all the IRS rules regarding participation in political campaigns and then taunt the IRS to take away their tax exemption.
CALL THEIR BLUFF!
Not dismiss, but view them as they are...skewed.
Where's the article about the atheists persecuting Christians over Christmas decorations?
This is hilarious....Persecution of the atheists...LOL!!! No matter what you believe, this is funny.
Paws93;
What's funny about atheists, agnostics and humanists being discriminated against? You don't believe they are? Why do you think they're so untrusted and disliked in the polls? There's millions of Americans who don't believe what the 3 major religions teach, and being an "unbeliever" is just as unpopular in America as it would be in Pakistan. Try to picture yourself as a declared unbeliever in your neighborhood, your job, or your town. You'd probably just pretend, wouldn't you? Why do educated citizens in 21st century America have to "pretend" to get along and be accepted, or promoted, or elected to public office?
Religion is choice, if you want to practice it fine, if you don't fine. That's how it should be looked at. That's the whole problem, people can't seem to get over that.
Atheists are not looking for freedom of religion though they believe in it as a general concept applied to others, they are looking for freedom FROM religion.
Atheists aren't trying to tell anyone what to believe and that's the problem for the people from organized religions who want to tell EVERYONE what to believe.
And therein lies the problem and the entire point of this debate. People form groups, groups become cults and cults become religions. The sad thing about human behaviour is that if you don't belong to a group (religion) you are different, an outcast and therefore will be persecuted for it.
Animals don't persecute each other; they don't have religion. This is why religion is so insidious and should be eradicated. The problem is it can't be. If everyone in the world had no religion today, one would soon start, then another similar, then another then another and then, a totally opposing one. There you have it.
Someone once said; If God didn't exist, man would create him. And several have been. The Christian God was created in 325AD at the council of Nicaea, so don't think your religion is better or any different from any other, it's just as ludicrous as all the rest.
That's the way it's supposed to work under our constitution and laws, but that's not how it works in practice. The United States was not founded under any single religion and treaties and statements going back to its conception clearly say that there is a separation of church and state and that the government does not support any single religion any differently that any other or even non-belief.
So, then why does Congress open with a benediction, and every political speech have to end with "God bless America", and why did the Congress insist on adding "in God we trust" to the money and "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance back in the 1950s which are all in opposition to the clear wishes of the founders? Even the Tea Party wackos who want to revert totally back to a 1797 world won't accept the facts that it would not include Christianity as a part of that government at all; even less than it does today.
As an Atheist, I always felt the pressure to go along with reciting pledges, oaths and whatever all the time felling like I was constantly lying. I could get away with just not saying the "under God" part of the Pledge of Allegiance, but just by it being included, I never really felt like a true American growing up since I couldn't accept it in its entirety. At last after I learned it was only added as a political gesturing, I could accept that it never was part of the original pledge, so leaving it out actually made me more of an authentic American. I resented having to always bow my head and make believe I was praying when I wasn't and now I simply do not do it. I can still honor a moment of silence without the self-demeaning action of bowing my head to a God I do not and have never believed in.
The best Christmas card I ever received was from a very good friend who knew how much I despised the way religion was so forced on us culturally. He mailed me a blank religious card and used ornate transfer letters to write the message "@!$%# God!" inside instead of the expected verbiage. I laughed so hard, I kept that card for many years. I have no problem with the cultural holiday season of Christmas as a time of good cheer, the Solstice, Santa, etc... I just prefer to keep the Christ out of x-mas.
Some of the stores make their employees wear those ridiculous buttons that say "Christmas is a Birthday" to which I play dumb and remark that every day is a birthday for someone and there are so many that are important to me, but nobody I know or care about was born on that day. Then I ask them if it happens to be their birthday. When they mention Jesus, I'm tempted to say that it's customary to only celebrate the death day and not the birthdays of Popes, Saints, etc.. so that they should be consistent in only celebrating his death, but I just say I don't think they actually knew what his actual birth date was due to inconsistencies in the calendars and leave it at that. At least it gives them a perspective they probably never considered.
when nativity scenes are torn down by the courts, because one family complains because they are atheists , you the atheist caused the problem.
yes. That ancient desire to tell other people how to live. THATS the root of all evil.
If you deny others the right to put up a simple nativity scene because it "offends" you, or deny kids the right to go on a field trip to see "A Charlie Brown Christmas," you reap what you sow. As the Bible says, athesists are fools who are full of themselves, and I agree.
Deny others their rights, lose yours. Sounds about right.
No one is prohibiting you from putting up a nativity scene on your property or the property of your church, but it really doesn't belong on the property of our secular government.
And if a government entity does allow your favorite cult to put up such a display it must allow it for every other cult - even the ones you don't like (including non-religion, Islam, and Satanism).
I once had a teacher that challenged the class on what was keeping him from lying, robbing, raping, and killing if it were not for God's judgement.
He was not amused when the majority of us answered, "the police."
Shrekk is absolutedly right. Allow one "holiday display", allow them all. That's why it's completely impractical and the easiest solution is to allow no such displays on public land. It's the same as teaching "creationism" in public school science classes... who's version do you teach (p.s. creationism isn't science)? by the time we honor everyone's version there would be no time left for real science.
As I said above I'm Christian, I go to church every week, but I don't feel I have the right to special treatment anymore than anyone else. That's the part I don't understand about my fellow Christians. Why can't you let it go? Let the atheists, agnostics, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans etc do what they please. They aren't trampling your beliefs by requesting to not be discriminated against and requesting to be left alone. You're not converting them by being obnoxious and going out trying to "save their souls."
Separation of church and state is a good thing and protects us all. How would you feel some day if the tables were turned and you found yourself in a majority Muslim county or state and the local leadership granted special consideration to the mosques?
My freedom to practice my faith is not harmed by prohibiting nativity scenes on public land, nor is it harmed by keeping God out of the pledge and off the money (btw this was added in response to the 'godless' communists back in the 50s and is not some sort of pseudosacred founding principal of our country). No one is preventing me from expressing my faith in my own yard, in my own home, and when I teach the faith to my own children. When I push my beliefs on others, I violate the golden rule advocated by Jesus himself. I can win more converts to the faith by living a good life than forcefeeding religion to others.
Red - it was Voltaire.
@put a fork in it.
Thanks, I was too lazy to look it up.
I just can't help but wonder how an atheist would expect freedom of religon if they don't believe in it?Just pointing out a paradox.I personally don't believe an atheist should be descriminated against.I won't force an atheist to pray and i would hope an atheist would have the decency to let others do what they will in regards to their religon without complaining.
I don't understand how it is a paradox to expect freedom of religion as an atheist. Atheists aren't denying the existence of religions as a social construct, they deny religions as the true representation of how the world works. for example you can deny the existence of magic, as it is described in the Harry Potter books, without denying the fact that there are books about a character named Harry Potter.
In terms of vocal opposition, there's a difference between having the right to believe and having the right to avoid criticisms, the vocal atheists simply don't see a valid reason for religion to be immune to the same level of criticism that politics commonly brings.
What you do on your own time and on your own property are certainly your business, wolfhound27. It is when the followers want to do it on public/government property, on everyone else's time that it is a problem.
Does your place of business put up Christmas decorations? Do you get Decemer 25th off from work automatically or do you have to use vacation days for your personal religious observances? These are examples of religious discrimination against atheists (and non-Christians) that most people think nothing of or think atheists should just keep their traps shut if they know what is good for them.
Do you wear a cross around your kneck at work? Do you know this is a good way to offend many non-christians and lose their business? Why would you wear a cross anyway? I mean, if Jesus were killed, say, thirty years ago, would you wear a little electric chair around your neck?
ok,i got your point.And for the most part i agree.I myself believe in God but, not organized religon because anything made or devised by humanity can be corrupted.As for magic?maybe but, paranormal? i have seen too many strange things to deny that something is afoot that i don't know about or understand.(from what i saw i am not going to persue it either)(leave well enough alone)
Wolfhound, freedom of religion also includes freedom FROM religion. Practice religion as you choose, or don't practice any religion. It's not freedom if it makes you choose from religions you don't believe in and doesn't give you an option of none of the above.
Also, does your church get a government break on taxes? Do they pay for the repair of streets and sidewalks? How about 911 service? How about water, sewer, electric, gas, and garbabe removal? Does your priest, preacher, rabbi, or Imam preach any political opinions?
These things too, things most of us Americans take for granted, are also offensive to non-religious folks.
Wolfhound said, "i have seen too many strange things to deny that something is afoot that i don't know about or understand.(from what i saw i am not going to persue it either)(leave well enough alone)"
So, just because you don't understand something, you blame it on the supernatural or on a God?
I'm not sure if that is a psychologically healthy way to go through life.
Captain, i have been in the same business as you for the last 28 years so you know the answers to your own questions.In fact, i am probably operating less than 100 miles from your location.i did'nt come here to fight,just merely to post that i don't feel it's right to descriminate against anyone based on religon.Even though i confess to having a little bias vs islam right now.If any soldier under my command feels he is being descriminated against, that soldier need to contact my CSM and see me ASAP.(i will put an end to it)
You're contradicting yourself here. You don't have to follow ANY religion you don't like. You see a church, synagogue or mosque you can just walk on by. Period. NO ONE is pointing a gun to your head to make you go in.
It's not so much freedom of religion as freedom of conscience. A religion is basically just a set of prescribed dogma used to define a world view. The religious use the power of consensus or "group think" to project a reality for themselves. There's nothing inherently wrong with that until the group claims exclusivity as a tenet and must reject and defend itself against any other possible reality...somemtimes to excess.
"let others do what they want"
The problem is that what the religious folks want is to impose their religion on others. Some catholic hospitals impose catholicism on their patients regardless of the patients' beliefs. No one is forcing people who don't want abortions to have them. No one is forcing people who don't want to use contraceptives to use them. No one is preventing people from praying in their homes and churches.
Wolfhound 27: I'm not here to fight either; just to discuss.
Do you have a chaplain in your command? A state-sponsored religious person whose sole job it is to sustain and spread their religion? If so, every Soldier in your command is being discriminated against. Do you dismiss your atheists and agnostics at every formal function just before the Chaplain gives the invocation or do you let them suffer in silence?
Where do the atheists in your command (estimated at around 19%) go if they have a personal problem?
Are you allowing your Soldiers to put up Christmas decorations around the office as they are here in mine?
Sure, the argument goes that the Chaplain Corps is part of the "tradition" of the Army. But so too was slavery and the exclusion of gays and women. Should we bring those back out of tradition?
It is time to get rid of the Chaplain Corps in the military; a state-sponsored religion. Would you be willing to put your 28-year career on the line to get rid of the Chaplain Corps in the Army?
If you're THAT bothered by a Christmas tree in the corner of the cafeteria, or a menorah in someone's window, or taking a day off from work to do whatever you please on your own time then you have bigger issues going on than I can help you with. You can go call and make an appointment to discuss them to someone who charges your insurance company by the hour.
Our religious organization donates many thousands of dollars and countless hours of manpower to charity. This includes providing, meals, education, disaster relief, housing and job training for the less fortunate. My organization has gotten many people off public welfare and put them back to work.. What would do you think the price tag would be if the county or state or even federal government had to subsides this? I think it's safe to say, we give a lot more than we take.
"Impose" means to force something unwanted on someone. That would only be true if they forced you to admit yourself to the hospital, or forced you to stay after you realized that you might find catholic symbolism in a catholic hospital.
Wolfhound, consider this; When I was convicted of DWI, I was forced to join Alcoholics Anonymous. I was ordered by the government to learn to "turn my will and life over to God" and pray for the knowledge of His will (capitalization theirs). My progress in this religious program was monitored by the government. This government ordered religious schooling was only halted after I spent ten years in court, waging a successful fight against forced AA attendance. I was forced, under threat of imprisonment, to recite the the tenets of AA- such as a promise seek a greater power in front of my probation officer. I was ordered, under threat of confinement to a locked psychiatric facility, to submit to AA's teachings. I won't go into massive detail. If you want the particulars, search with these two terms in the same search; "Alcoholics Anonymous" and "Robert Warner". If you have an open mind, the violation of the rights of this atheist may enlighten you.
Captain; I respect your choice not to believe and perhaps if someone's was shoving their religion in my face, even Christianity, which it what I practice I would be beyond annoyed.
I have 17 years in the military and these chaplains who you want band also provide invaluable counseling to others. Maybe not you but there are other avenues you or other non-religious personnel can use if needed.
In our current climate with the high rate of suicide in our armed forces, do you think it would be wise to eliminate a resource that can help prevent even a small percentage just because you're not a religious person? I know soldiers who took their own lives. I wouldn't wish this experience on my worst enemy, I would have done anything to prevent it if I've known they were contemplating this. I'da taken them to a church or mosque or temple if I knew it would've helped. YOu can't think if yourself, it's about the greater good.
Also you can't compare having chaplains in the military to slavery or the exclusion of any class of people. You can choose not to pray where these classes were suppressed. You're talking apples and oranges.
Carolyn G, Yes I agree that most religions do charitable work. However, to a large degree they do so to further their philosophy and to proselytize. I don't think it is safe to say that religion in general gives more than they take. Religions operate to further themselves.
An atheist expects freedom from religion in the same way that a religious person expects freedom of religion.
Dale3242; You can't speak for every religious organization. The one I belong to have members and organizers who actually enjoy helping those in need. There is a great feeling in it. Some actually take the meaning and definition of their religion seriously and don't necessarily use it to further their personal agenda. Also, those needing the aide are just grateful to get it. Also, if you haven't sat down and done the actual accounting of these organizations, you can't say they take more than they give. Most I know could never operate and stay afloat without volunteers and donations. Many act as a conduit of aide. Come down to the Ministries I volunteer at, and see the amount of people who are served two hot meals everyday and who are taking vocational courses, being treated for addictions or are being assisted in finding jobs and housing. I can't even imagine the money this would cost the tax payers.
Even if you take ONE person off public assistance, you've almost paid for more than a years worth of taxes right there.
While I applaud you for standing up for your convictions (pun intended), I disagree that you were forced into AA. You were given a choice, after your third DUI conviction, of incarceration or probation, with AA classses as a condition of that probation. You may have been coerced, but you weren't forced. You were given a choice. You chose to avoid jail.
Carolyn- Most churches spend maybe 10-15% of their donations on actual charity. For any other charity that would deemed as a ripoff and unacceptable. You might as well make country clubs tax free as they hold charity golf tournaments.
Media is always laying the groundwork for division. Testing the waters. Checking for how much dissent exists - or can be stoked - to further the mission. The mission is not freedom or dissemination of information. The mission is to lay the coals, stack the wood, light it up, watch it burn. They had nothing to do with it, this charred remnant of America.
In Colorado Catholic Charities is in the process of buying all of the major hospitals in the Denver area, so, yes, choices are more limited. You're right; you can check out of the hospitel, but if you need medical care that the religious-based hospital won't provide, where do you go?
But you do it with strings. You do it to forward your agenda and your god. You take people at their lowest point and you say, if you buy into this we'll feed you.
How would it be if it were prostitution or dealing drugs? Would you still say, oh we give away, way more than we take in.
I can't understand why religious people don't get this. What you offer is not freely given.
Do you think Atheists don't give? Just as one example have a look at Kiva.org. You'll find the Atheist group has long ago left the nearest religious group in the dust.
Nice try. There are 30 hospitals in the metro area. Four of them are catholic. I'm throwing the BS flag unless you can cite offers made by Catolic Charities to the others.
Uh oh, TAG - Severed Head in A Jar - You're it! 15 yard penalty!
Hee hee hee - and GO Broncos - I mean - PAT'S! Oooops! ROFL!
So are you suggesting that only a religious person can offer guidance? Sure reads that way as you only cite religious organizations as ones that can help people with issues.
Carolyn G - Thank you!
Sorry, HOTTICKET, gotta go with the Texans here. Broncos need 2nd seed.
Chaplains never bothered me - they amount to what passes for mental health counselors in combat zones (I'm out of the 60's so it may be different now) So I wouldn't ban them. I don't remember any proselytizing chaplains (unless you ASKED) Most of the ones I remember could do various specific ceremonies and "non-denominational" as well.
That having been said - I don't DO religion (but I'm not going to refuse to help someone BECAUSE they ARE religious, either)
Ah, so it would appear is if anyone who is not a devil worshiping christian in less than a full human being.
I wonder if that has anything to do with slavery or the Great American Genocide.
What a complete surprise.
I did not see this one coming.
I was too busy looking down the street waiting for Jesus (who is just a minion of the winning team of Devils. They use him to get money from idiots so they can get about their business of destroying Paradise).
We all know that you call some one what takes LSD and hallucinates is a Hippie.
What do you call someone who hallucinates without LSD? A chiristian.
God created the Heavens and the Earth. That's it. It was a big job.
Anything who claims that God did anything more - or less - is a liar.
Have you every noticed that everyone who is not a Devil worshiper is automatically an atheist. When an atihest says "I do not believe in God he (or she) is saying that "I"do not believe in your insane criminal organization that conspired to destroy 99% of life on Earth the with thermonuclear weapons that were created as a result of your suicidal notion of Armageddon).
By the way, I am writing another book. It is about my dad. It is called "Pathfinder for Armageddon". It will be a very interesting book. When I was born he was flying in USSR airspace locating radars so the good christian soldiers could fly into the Soviet Union to drop their thermonuclear weapons so they could destroy 99% of life on Earth, as predicted. My dad is definitely not better than your dad! If you think he is, then you have to be one of those Devil worshipping christians.
ENDRUST...aren't you fortunate to live in the west where you have the ability to share your opinion of faith and religion. So while writing your book will you expect your assistant to share your beliefs or will you discriminate against believers?
Ya gotta wonder, if God can make the universe and all the critters in it, not to mention all those other miracles, why can't he make his own money?
A few of my favorite comics will answer you religious questions.
The reason science trumps religion
A scientist and religion
I'll see y'all there
Flying spaghetti monster don't NEED no money
What will these "believers" do when science proves their religion is based on man's interpretation of nature and tradition, not facts.
I have no problem with anyone's religion. Just don't force it on me.
I believe that it already has.
The human condition is the conflict between good and evil. When you cannot discern the difference, the risk is not in an excess of good. Nature and science are not good or evil, for they are not man. The spiritual nature is human and it is capable of wisdom or folly. Discernment is wisdom and escapes the folly of fools. Discernment comes from God. To deny God is to deny the spiritual nature of man. It is your choice to do so, but neither nature or science can cure the human condition. To overcome evil with good escapes those who are without wisdom, which is God. To deny God is to deny that good and evil exist.
What about evil in the name of god? Everyone (mostly) can agree that the slave trade was an evil act and yet slaves were taught Christianity as a means of control. "Your freedom will come when you ascend to heaven". In other words, accept your cruel treatment and your condition as a slave now for if your revolt, you will not get into heaven. Religion has also been the forefront for many wars and attrocities. Man kills in the name of god because "god" demands it. America was founded on the pretense (lie) that god intented this land to belong to the early settlers so they murdered the natives and took what they wanted. Religion seems to be more often used as a tool by the self absorbed to justify their shameless behavior and to promote their own selfish agenda for power and control.
alim,
You just called anyone who doesn't believe in your god a fool, didn't you? Or at least, without wisdom.
And that's part of the point of this whole discussion. You didn't just broadly call atheists fools, you called at least 25% of your fellow Americans fools, as well. Not to mention your fellow christians who you would, no doubt, not call real christians.
"To deny God is to deny that good and evil exist."
Only if you define good as being "of God." But if you define good in terms of genreal moral principles, it doesn't have to have anything to do with God. God is more likely to be a metaphor for good rather than vice versa.
The concepts of "good" and evil" ONLY exist in the hearts of Human beings! There is NO supernatural or external force of "good" and"evil" because they are both nothing more than opinionated assessments of human behavior! Good and evil are merely concepts created by humans to describe actions that are seen as benevolent or malevolent! They are simply choices that a person makes...
I always considered "God" as a attribution of "that which is unknown to man." When we dont know something we say, "god only knows" or when we push the boundary of what's known, we're accused of "playing god." I think Newton had a similar attitude.
You Aetheists whine about being forced to bow your head or whatever-which by the way, no one is pointing an actual gun at your head to do so-while you force your beliefs(or lack of) on the religious beliefs of others, even to the point of extortionists like Freedom from Religion or the ACLU and threaten to deciminate the economies of small towns because of a cross that has been there for over 50 years. Kind of hypocritical, isn't it?
peanut - actually Newton was VERY devout (as well as being a little off kilter)
lisa - I don't bow my head. I discern no REASON to perform that action. What YOU do is up to YOU - however, when addressing ME, don't harp on religion - just STFU (I've discarded your premise as representative of ignorance and superstition) Do as you please. ONE thing you need to remember, though, is that there ARE other religions out there that ARE NOT christian. I'm not going to raise the question of religion unless YOU start it. At that point I am FREE to make my choices known. Since the "establishment" doctrine has been verified by the courts, municipalities are not allowed to place what is always overtly christian displays on public property. if the decimation in your reference is to the cost of lawsuits, why not just move whatever display is apparently offensive back to a church yard (WHERE NO ONE CAN OBJECT)
lisacharleston
Actually, they are pointing guns at our heads. And they are pulling triggers. Religious fanatics feel free to persecute and harrass because the religious accept when supporting God there is no extreme limit.
So many religions are practiced badly and adherents don't follow their own beliefs. They use the power of the pulpit, the promise of heaven and the fear of hell to squeeze money from their unsuspecting flocks! If there was a God would He really allow all the suffering and heinous crimes done in the name of religious to continually exist?
I don't think so, and mankind is doomed if it doesn't realize all we have in this life is the here and now.
An unverifiable, unquestionable source of authority is very helpful to megalomaniacs everywhere.
I'll take Atheism and persecution over the invisible sky fairy anyday.
WilliamOfRites..........Amen to that ! ;-)
Now , you know why their discriminated against . The above comments were not necessary.
Atheist have the same problem that queers do. They have to dwell and throw it in your face attitude. Keep your ideology to yourself . None of the sane ones here care what you believe.
I see it all the time on here. A topic comes up . Someone says "thank GOD" and the idiots come out in groves to attack them. It is true and the mods know it and do nothing.
There is nothing wrong with having a little fear of GOD around . Too many evil doers (yes , some of them are fake religious folks , not necessarily Christians ) with no moral compass .
Even though i am agnostic , i respect all religions . I know this planet and all the interactions are not just some magical coincidence like atheist seem to believe .
WilliamOfRites, you're part of the problem: your comment is arrogant and rude, no different in essence from the crap spewed by right wing religious nut cases. I believe in God. I also have friends who are atheists and we respect each other and leave it at that. I don't try to bring them to my religious understandings, and they in turn don't MOCK OR RIDICULE my beliefs. We see the good in each other and are connected by THOSE things and by our common humanity. I love my friends.
Even as I little use for people who shove religion in my face, I have little use for atheists who are pompous asses, who know everything, who refuse to acknowledge that religions of the world or individual religious people have done good, and who insist that non-religious secular governments and political systems have NEVER brought harm to human kind.
There will always be religious fanatics who won't accept atheists of course, but a hell of a lot more people WOULD stand with you in terms of rights if you'd act like the fellow human beings that you are and respect those who don't think like you. Separation of church and state is a good thing, but "community" belongs to all of us, and religion is sometimes interwoven with some generally shared traditions and customs. I've heard atheists whine because they have to look at a Nativity display on PRIVATE property on their way to work, or because they can hear a church bell ring, or because the tree on the town common is called a "Christmas" tree, or because someone leaves a comment for a news story, saying, "God bless the victims."
Until the day comes when atheists pick and choose their battles carefully and stop trashing all religions and all people of faith and temper their observations of others with a sense of connectedness that comes from our shared, human condition, people will have a stereotyped and apprehensive opinion of atheists. With that, progress regarding rights will be SLOW. Tell me that you don't believe in God, and I'm fine with that. Refer to God as a "sky fairy" , as you did above (and worse in previous comments left by you) and I will not take you seriously in the LEAST.
Ahhh yes, the loving tolerant christians are out again.
It never ceases to amaze me how insulted the "believers" become when you make any comparison of their belief in God to any other belief.
Seriously, why is a jolly old guy in a red suit giving away toys so preposterous but another old guy building a wooden boat the size of an aircraft carrier and a mating pair of every animal species on Earth just strolling on for a 40 day cruise so plausible???
I'm sorry, would "invisible old guy with a white beard" make it more palatable??
Atheist have the same problem that queers do. They have to dwell and throw it in your face attitude. Keep your ideology to yourself .
Oh you mean like religions have been doing for thousands of years...keeping their ideaology to themselves?
It's religions that force their ideology all over the place and now when an atheist stands up for what they believe in you tell them to shut up. You are pretty much what the article is talking about.
Retiredcoastguard, I agree with your comment in part, but your use of "queer" was unnecessary too. If any group is discriminated against, including atheists or gays, then your telling them to "keep their ideologies to themselves" on top of that is absurd. Should African Americans have just "shut up" in the 50's and 60's? (Ten to one many people know what YOU think about various topics.)
The socially marginalized will sometimes speak angrily. I can understand that, but many atheists (if comments here are an indication) have turned their cause into a permanent, nasty, vitriolic "hobby" via which they gleefully attack strangers because it's FUN. Your mentioning atheists who jump on people for saying "God bless", etc. is a spot on example of this. We do not all agree on certain things, but part of what makes us human is our ability to be CIVIL and look past the SMALL STUFF. Saying "God bless the victims" or "Merry Christmas" does not equal, "There must be prayer in public schools!", yet a lot of atheists just don't get it.
Thanks , then i am at the right place. I should have said flamers instead of queers . If you do not like the opposite sex that is ok with me but we do not need a parade to celebrate. If you do not believe in GOD of any kind that is find too . That is up to you ,again no parade necessary even on newsvine.
That's what religious people can't comprehend- how ludicrous their beliefs seem to non-believers. The belief that there is a magic creature- a sky fairy- that lives in the sky, looks like us, and can point his finger and make the crops grow. That in the entire history of mankind, every person that ever existed and died now lives on in a magiacal world of either Heaven in the clouds or Hell under the earth. That a man named Noah once put a pair of every living organism on a boat to save them from a great flood and that all living organism is a direct decendant of that mating pair. And on and on. And y'all really think that that makes sense?
RetiredCG is upset at many things, progress, tolerance, equal rights for ALL Americans.
He longs for the days when the USA was a Norman Rockwell painting and his wife had a martini waiting for him when he got home at 5:30 pm. (See Pleasantville)
He is impotent and frustrated at the changes he sees happening and instead of trying to evolve with them he will hole up with his bible and guns and simply die off with his outdated beliefs.
"Vaya con Dios" RCG, we will progress just fine without you.
Need I say more about the "deeply religious"??
Alright Robert, first there are other religions besides Christianity . It is not politically correct to bash them (or maybe not as fun for you all) . I find it odd , that you non-believers seem to feel the moon being where it is placed was a accident . Same with the SUN.
It is nice to have tides and a change in seasons(NICE AXIS THING WE HAVE GOING) too . Is,nt it ?
Nice to not be toast but not freezing.
coincidence no
Then their is that whole oxygen vs nitrogen thing we have going with the plant life.
If you people believe all that is a coincidence . Maybe you should take up gambling . Your must be extremely lucky.
Nikolaus20 I guess I was waiting for a comment like yours... (friend request pending)
I don't even agree with everything you said but you said it well and that's the point. Full disclosure.. I'm a Christian, conservative, enjoy science and retired military.. and I can honestly say.. Atheist.. so called Free thinkers are some of the most narrow minded group that Ive encountered on the vine. I'v been vilified so much on here that to be honest.. It doesn't phase me any more... It still bothers me and gets my "blog-underwear" in a bunch when My God.. My Lord.. becomes a Pinata for Atheist. I see ZERO demonstration of Kindness to other of faith from them... and I mean Organization set up to help others .. other than themselves... so I say this to all Atheist on the Vine.. welcome to my world.,, My advice:
Speak right, Talk right, do it with respect, stop being so selfish. After all the BIBLE teaches follow men with peace... I have found some who (are my friends) who don't agree with my God but respect me as a personal.. I'm telling you the Twice that number of Christians respect a freedom of "non- belief". We want God.. and a fight against sin.. (real evil) not against people who Christ died for... The Bible TEACHES this.. What rule "book" the Atheist are following. because you guys need to change authors:
(sorry for the "bold".. accident)
YEP !
How do Atheists celebrate Christmas? Oh and do you all feel like hypocrites taking the holiday off?
That is up to you ,again no parade necessary even on newsvine
But I bet a Christmas parade is okay with you isn't it?
It's funny you don't seem to have a problem "parading" your beliefs around yet anyone with a different belief system than yours is required to shut up and go away.
Well you can keep being miserable because other views aren't going away just because you want them too.
I must admit, I do get a certain guilty pleasure knowing that it wrankles the nerves of people like you because folks with other beliefs aren't going away.
Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.
No YOU don't get it.
Let's test your tolerance to anyone that isn't you:
Allah be praised
Praise the Goddess
Scowl, you're eating before sundown. It's Ramadan...
Getting any clearer for you?
RCG: no, not accidents, but following the laws of nature, revealed by careful scientific study. No need to postulate a god.
Flame you forgot to mention to everyone why you think you are treated so wrong on the vine. He continually makes off topic religious trolling comments in the space and science section. There is no need for that at all.
Yeah, the "Christians" indeed.
The poster clearly states (in the same post) that they're agnostic and your little brain automagically runs to the whole "It's the Christians putting me down!" card again.
This is a pretty valid reason for just about any intelligent person to hate you. You're a bigot trying to spread around your bigotry. It gets old fast.
Do you? Considering that Jesus' actual birth date is not known.
And why would anyone feel hypocritical? It's "the Holiday Season" that we celebrate now. Didn't you get that memo?
Living by the bible? You mean that book rewritten so a child molesting murderer could divorce his wife? Or perhaps you speak of the bible that was written by the Roman Empire to form the Holy Roman Empire so they could keep some of their power? No thanks. Spiderman comics have better morals and not written to save empires or divorce.
"How do Atheists celebrate Christmas?"
How do religious people? If my understanding of history is correct "Christmas" is a made up holiday to coincide with a myriad of "Pagen" (see non-Christian) to make conversion from those religions more palatable. Pretty much all of the "traditions" we consider normal under it (decorating trees, presents, etc) come from non-Christian, and in many cases polytheistic, religions.
rcg,
I don't celebrate christmas, I celebrate the winter solstice, four days earlier. And, currently, I cannot work on the 25th, because where I work is closed and there would be little to no point in me going.
east coast,
The poster clearly misidentified himself. He believes in a creator, therefore, not agnostic.
You mean Santa Claus? At least that's a cultural myth that most of us can agree on.
we don't have a rule book, Flame. we get to actually BELIEVE in what we wish, which is the opposite of religion, we are not handed a set of rules to dictate beliefs. Just the same as morality, which is also the opposite of religion. Morality is doing the right thing because it is the right thing, following a religion is called OBEDIENCE, not morals.
ATHEISTS claim to know everything about this subject
Christians claim to know something about this subject
Agnostics (can believe) claim there willing to learn ,someday when they meet their maker , even if it is Hasbro or Mattel .
Do a little google search and learn.
If a christian tells me "god bless" and means it in a good way, I choose to take it how its meant. No point going postal on somebody trying to be nice in their own way. That even goes for that muslim greeting I cant quite make out.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+5%3A5-11&version=NIV
"God opposes the proud
but shows favor to the humble.
Wrong. Agnostics believe the answer is "unknowable." You, on the other hand, are using creation as a starting point to your arguments:
You aren't even open to the idea of a universe without a creator, therefore you are not agnostic. Do a little Google search and learn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable
At least for now... If i was positive their was no GOD , i would be a Atheist. Which i certainly am NOT !
Satanists? You mean Christians? THEY are the ones that CREATED Satan and worship him equally as they do their Jesus. Without Satan, they would not have needed Jesus...
rcg,
thank you for proving my point.
What's funny is that not only didn't retiredcoastguard's fantasy America ever exist but Norman Rockwell himself had a very low opinion of ignorant bigots like retiredcoastguard. Like many artists Rockwell was far more socially evolved than his generational peers, and he did a great series of paintings about racism and civil rights.
Even more to the point, Rockwell did the “Freedom of Religion” war bonds painting.
gee - trashing all religions? Well... no. just the ones that seem to think that I am fair game for their "church" to acquire as an adherent. And I DO refer to the mythical sky fairy (routinely). Before "science" showed that there is no "roof" over earth, it was "believed" that there was "something" up there that held the stars at night and the sun during the day and that the SUN went around the EARTH and the EARTH was the very CENTER of the universe. We NOW know BETTER, but that doesn't stop the touters of the book of mythical dogmatic assertions from trying to twist the FACTS to fit their "interpretations".
there are certain PHYSICAL FACTS that just don't play well with religion (mostly to do with life and death) and I'm not going to go into details.
This I find just ridiculous. No one is forced to lie. There are many options at a global experience that precludes perjury.
Not in a theocracy there aren't.
You get witch hunts and wars when church and state hold hands.
txmom32 -- I only wish that no one was forced to lie to be able to live in this world, but in Malaysia, people are forced between a rock and a hard place--either lie or face incredible hardship if they are not in the few officially-recognized religions. Just because you and I want there to be worldview freedom in Malaysia, does not make it so.
the only "bad" religion in Malaysia is "none of the above".
There is no freedom of religion without freedom from religion.
Does the USA have freedom of religion? On paper, yes. In reality, no.
Define freedom "from" religion. If you don't want prayer in public schools, or religious displays on public property, or Congress opening with a prayer, I'm fine with that. Or do you envision a world in which people can't publicly wear religious symbols, in which places of worship must look "neutral" on the outside, and in which religious books are off of library shelves? What of religion-themed paintings by Rembrandt and Titian, hanging in public museums? What of Masses by Bach or Mozart, sung in public schools? Are those offensive?
Should we ban Thanksgiving? Who, after all, were the Pilgrims giving thanks TO? And are the decorated trees or wreaths seen in December just too much to bear, as they have religious (Christian and Pagan) connotations or origins? Again, freedom from religion can mean the freedom to NOT believe in a God, or to not have to believe in a certain religion or go to church, etc., but for many atheists, it means a lot, lot more.
Nik,
What does freedom from religion look like? Well, it looks like government neutrality in regards to religion. What does that look like? Well, that looks like nothing.
This is the best analogy I've ever heard explaining it. If you're pushing against a wall, and you stop applying force, does that now mean that the wall is pushing you? No. Obviously not.
If not having religious displays or aspects in our government constituted a government sanctioning of Atheism, than everything that has a dime of public money or an iota of pubic purpose, would need to have a disclaimer written on it stating, "The lack of religious subject matter in regards to this building, uniform, road, park, project.... Does not constitute a state sanctioning of religion".
That would be exhausting.
Oooops, I meant, "A state sanctioning of Atheism."
Yes. This is all people want. They want the government to stop endorsing religion. That is it. (Well, on a societal level it would be nice if people didn't assume we are worse than child molesters but non-governmental treatment is outside the parameters of what you were talking about.) For the rest, no one wants that except maybe a fringe I doubt even exists and is certainly at lower numbers than neo-nazis and other crackpots.
Truly, there is no reason to worry - all atheists want is not to be persecuted. That's it. Can we be friends now?
The argument that there is no freedom from religion is silly.
Here you go:
As a christian, you can practise what you believe. You don't have to practise what muslims believe. Therefore, you are free from their religion. You are also free from pagan religions, hinduism, Judaism, etc.
So, hows that freedom from religion working for you?
EmilyInIowa, your comment is totally reasonable. Thanks. Other comments left for this article (and for past related stories) come from atheists who gleefully say that religious/spiritual people are demented and deluded, and that religion is evil, a sickness that must be eradicated. The people who leave such comments will also mock the notion of "God" and demonstrate their intellectual "superiority" over benighted believers by referring to Deity with all kinds of ridiculous and derisive names. Then these folks will of course congratulate each other on their wittiness and pithy insights. This kind of uber-atheist behavior goes far beyond a desire to keep government from endorsing religion, and unfortunately, it's this kind of stuff that defines "atheist" for many. If someone mocks my beliefs and calls me names, my response will not be one of solidarity or support; it will be to tell that person in one way or another to go "stand in the corner", as the whining, disrespectful brat that he or she is.
Sarah, nice post! There have been incidents of the state getting entangled with religion in obvious ways (the Ten Commandments being posted in a court house, for example) but other examples are "gray". The Christmas tree (or "holiday tree) for example, comes from Christianity, but is not tied specifically to Christian teachings. It's a kind of "folk" custom with nice attached symbolism that is embraced by practicing Christians, ex-Christians, and even non Christians, many of whom still refer to it as a "Christmas" tree. Is it by definition, "religious"? Some Christian groups say absolutely not, and that no "real" Christian would put one up. Atheists in general DO define it as "religious", some being fine with calling it a "holiday tree" when on public land, but others not wanting cities or towns to have an official one at all.
Sorry. The holiday tree is more related to the REAL holiday that occurs on the 21st of December (or thereabouts) - THE SOLSTICE. The shortest day of the year which is a SCIENTIFIC phenomena. All the other Semitic religions were trying to compete with the REAL religion, SCIENCE. There are more awe inspiring revelations in the study of a single tree than in all the religious claptrap ever written.
That's all people are asking for, government silence on religious issues.
That pushback from atheists (and Christians as well as MANY other theists) is coming from the fact that bible-thumpers are stuffing their religion down everyone's throats, and trying to use the government to enforce their sharia laws (as well as the very long history of theocracy and Christian imperialism in the US).
If you're a Christian who isn't doing that then you're part of the solution and not the problem.
Personally - I don't care who you worship or what you worship. I wouldn't call myself a Christian - Agnostic is probably close to how I feel - I just don't know but I'm not laying awake at night worrying about it. I think when you die, your soul goes to a garage in Brooklyn.
retiredcoastguard - No I don't feel guilty taking Christmas off. I don't feel guilty taking any day off. I work in a bank and we gets lots of days off and I enjoy everyone of them.
I feel guilty that we don't get the Jewish holidays off. Or the Islamic ones. Or the Hindu ones... I mean, fair is fair, right??? ;)
Sarah - I think they suck your brain out in a secret room at churches that preach so much hate and intolerance and have the temerity to call themselves "christian" (adj)
Kim,
Haven't you heard? Christians are NEVER hateful. Ask Coral Taxi.
Sarah - She has, obviously, visited the secret room.
so then hambone - what about displays on public property of what is religious "stuff' - like that one in Alabama? of the 10 suggestions (they aren't commandments to ME, anyway)
Oh, and I have to admit that so many years ago when I was in the Army, I used to change religions at the drop of a "retreat". probably swapped every 3 months or so depending on whether or not the retreat was somewhere I wanted to visit (or not). it was a marriage of convenience - a minimal cost leave that didn't cost me time from my "real" leave
one thing it DID was to give me an understanding of many religions - the similarities and differences, too
As Sarah so eloquently put it by mistake, having the statement on every dime, penny etc. public house, park etc. state "The lack of religious subject matter in regards to this building, uniform, road, park, project.... Does not constitute a state sanctioning of religion" would be exhausting.
You were correct the first time Sarah, go with your gut feeling, having nothing would be fair to all religious and non-religious and posting your statement would be exhausting.
Know who else faces discrimination? Everyone. We all just need to let other people be and accept that you can't satisfy everyone all the time. We've reached a point where the 1st amendment is used to fight itself while everyone takes everything as a personal slight against them and a violation of their rights. I'm tired of somebody suing somebody else in the private sector based on their perception of being discriminated against and using the 1st amendment as their argument when the 1st amendment is what allows the person being sued to do what they were doing in the first place.
"At least seven U.S. states, constitutional provisions are in place that bar atheists from public office and one state, Arkansas, has a law that bars atheists from testifying as witnesses at trials, the report said." Most GAYS seem to be Atheists. Double the trouble for them.
How do you know the personal beliefs of these people?
You must be god.
Congratulations.
"IF true", gays are probably atheists cuz they've been kicked out of every major religion. There probably doesnt appear to be a god from their point-of-view. Kinda like the jews in concentration camps that had a trial about the existence of god. Understandable doubts creep in.
Why would you think that? Maybe they just don't belong to your bigoted cult and have found a more enlightened denomination, like the Episcopal church.
The stats I've seen show that 70% of gays are Christian.
Probably 70% of gays are Christian because they know if you're atheist you are treated even worse than gays.
Sadly in a country that flaunts it's 'Freedom Of Religion' there is no such thing as 'Freedom From Religion'.
If affect--there is no such thing as religion--only cults.
Only cults attempt to criminalize the non-believers. So all religions are cults.
Nice bit of stereotyping there. I've read many comments here from atheists who would cheerfully criminalize believers if they could too. Clearly, "stupidity" is a two way street. You didn't mention political systems. An American who doesn't "believe" in ours, and who tries to subvert it, or who preaches violence against it, is "criminalized". Are political systems therefore "cults"? What of individual states which have speed limits? If you exceed the limit because you don't "believe" in it, you'll be arrested. Are states "cults"? Now, name one religion in America which has had people fined or arrested for not believing in God. I agree that there should be NO laws which discriminate against atheists in the public sphere, but calling religions "cults" is ridiculous.
more2bits - Your argument defines cyclical, foolish and irrational thought.
Nikolaus20
Here's the flaw in your argument. As Atheists, generally we don't care enough about what you believe to criminalize it. So long as you don't try to influence our shared laws with your religious doctrine, or try to convert me or my family, or try to force my participation in your rituals, I couldn't care less what you believe, and I promise I won't try to force Atheism on you.
I also don't have a war on Christmas. It's a perfectly nice holiday (minus the commercialism), I have no problem with religious displays on private property. Even though it was "borrowed" from my pagan ancestors, I'm sure they don't mind.
I think the problem is more with the athiests that DO get in everybody's face about it. It much less trouble for everybody to just kick back and quietly laugh at the sky spirit people with their symbolic cannibalism and vampirism. ;)
Cult is just another name for a religion. No distinction needed. You are either in a cult or an atheist. Period.
SRS-798254
Not true at all. I am not religious, in that I don't believe in any sort of religion or a bible as being the word of god. But I do believe in a creator, so I am not an athiest either. I believe there are many out there who are not part of any organized religion but do believe in some sort of God.
All religions are cults, some just have more members than others. Here's the proper definition:
Mine is a denomination, yours is a sect, theirs is a cult.
well... a single person is called a LOONEY, maybe up to 12 or 13. A small group (say, 100 or in the low 100s) is called a CULT when you get above the 100s and up into the millions, it's a RELIGION.
I feel for you guys that can't express yourself. It is a crime, but the funny thing is the United States was founded on Christian ideals, and the laws are mosaic, in nature. To that end, you are free to express your athiestic ideas without risk of persecution. Just as the article says, in other cultures, you might be subject to execution for presenting opposing ideas. Finally, the constitution does not say Freedom From Religion, but Freedom Of Religion, but I agree that I shouldn't be allowed to push my "religion" on you, any more than you can push your ideas on me. You should feel something in that you are in a country that tolerates your views. Have fun out there.
The laws of the United States are an evolution of the Magna Carta and both religious and political freedom in the form of tax representation were 2 of the major driving issues.
Moreover several of the founding Fathers explicitly have said our country is NOT founded on any particular religion:
The idea that America was founded on Christian ideas is a myth, and even if it was the first amendment renders those ideas moot.
When it comes to freedom from religion it is in the constitution, but, like freedom of religion it's not specifically worded as such. in the first amendment it first states that the government can't tell you what to believe (congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion) then it states that congress can't tell you what not to believe (or prohibiting the free exercise there of). even without that first part, think of it this way, in ancient Rome Christians were considered atheists because they didn't believe in the pantheon, can freedom of religion exist if the government can declare a religion to be illegitimate and not an actual religion, thereby curtailing it's believers under the justification that there is no freedom from religion?
@TanManTexas, atheists don't have a religion to push on you. It's your beliefs that they suggest are mythical and not based on any verifiable truth. Prove to me that Jesus was real. You can't.
Atheists may not have a religion to push, but they do push their agenda by working to remove things they call offensive. It's not enough to just not participate, but it needs to be removed.
Jesus may not be real to you, but I know what and where He is. Sadly, you won't even try to know what I'm talking about, but rather call me an idiot or small minded for beleiving it myself.
Some more revisionist U.S. history, most likely spread from the pulpit. Many of the founders were students of enlightenment philosophers and scholars, who believed in self-determination, free well, and (most importantly) free thought. In the entire U.S. Constitution, the word "God" appears exactly 0 times. Religion is only addressed in the First Amendment. "God" only appears once in the Declaration of Independence. Ben Franklin was pretty much an athiest. Jefferson a deist. Many others proclaimed no specific denomination or affiliation, yet so many people in 21st century America, with all of the information freely available, still perpetuate this myth that the U.S.A. was founded on "religious principles."
@TanManTexas, atheists only call for removal of religious displays that are sponsored by public money. They care as much as you about the freedom of religious display when it comes from private money. Not only is mixing church and state not permitted by the ideology of the Founding Fathers, the Constitution, and the Supreme Court, but it is also morally reprehensible to use tax money to do it. You can of course do what you want with private funds.
The mind can play strong tricks on oneself. Surely you don't believe in any other god except the one of your religion. Atheists only take it one god further. Moreover, they use science to explain how the world came to be and how it works.
TanManTexas,
I don't think you're small-minded for believing, but your comment was small-minded in assuming that an atheist has never tried "to know what [you're] talking about.
Look up the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796. The United States clearly stated then that the U.S. was not founded on any religion and did not endorse any religion over any other. Combine that with the Magna Carta and other documents that our system was based on and that a few of the founders appear to have been either agnostic or at least opposed to organized religion.
It's a clear open and shut case. America was NOT founded on on Christian ideals, was never founded as a Christian nation, and the separation of church and state is the primary founding principle of our nation with respect to personal beliefs.
While I recognize aspects of Mosaic Law in our form of government, I also recognize secular and pagan aspects--it appears to me that our founding fathers utilized good ideas wherever they found them that could be applied to freedom and balance of power.
I am sorry but your statement is patently false! " the United States was founded on Christian ideals"! This is a common example of the bogus "patriotic propoganda" of the self-righteous Right wing that I am constantly bobarded with! If this statement WERE actually TRUE, then there would be NO separation of church and state! DUH!
Not to mention that democracy and the republic were originally Pagan systems of government.
Christian Europe was dominated by monarchies for centuries, since the "divine right of kings" was the accepted dogma.
You probably should consider listening to something other than conservative talk radio. The United States was not founded on Christian ideals. There were numerous models drawn from, from the English tradition of the Magna Carta, to the Roman Republic, to the Norse "All Thing" to Greek Democracy.
As to the laws being Mosaic...not at all. In fact, take a look at the 10 Commandments, then look at The Code of Hammurabi, which was the Babylonian law when the Old Testament was being written...in Babylon. By the way, the Babylonians weren't even monotheistic, they were pagan.
And for centuries before that, Europe was dominated by the tribal tradition, which was quite similar to a republic, in that the chief was chosen by equals, and could be deposed or executed by a council of equals...also a Pagan system of government. The "divine right of kings" wasn't really institutionalized until the forced conversions in Europe to Christianity; beginning really with Charlemagne.
Hi Ol_Doc - the Mosaic Laws that cover don't lie' don't steal, don't murder surely are reflected in our laws today. I'm not claiming that the Mosaic Law is the only one containing laws like that, but those are a part of Mosaic Law as well as our own. Also some property inheritance rights, and the need for at least 2 witnesses agreeing in a criminal trial, and don't forget that before there was a monarchy in ancient Israel, there was 12 judges that ruled Israel. I definitely agree with you about the Magna Carta, ancient Greek democracy and Roman Republic, as well as the Norse model and the Code of Hammurabi being part of what influenced our founding fathers in addition to the Judeo/Christian model, although I'm not sure if the Norse model and/or the Code of Hammurabi were known to our founding fathers at that time. The ancient Greeks and Romans, and the Magna Carta definitely were, though.
You pretty much have it covered. I refuse to accept that this god person exists, and if he does, i would kick him squarely in the privates for what he has done and what has been done in his name. I would rath burn than submit to such a creature.
And yes, you are rather dim for buying in to that crap.
The founding fathers were "children of the inlightenment" which included the same values as christians but rejected the supernatural source of those values. They just "existed" aka were "inalienable."
Let's see....Atheists can't be a witness in Arkansas....is that because they won't swear to "God" to tell the truth? The same God our government has banned from schools? Took away the Pledge of Allegiance, morning prayer and bans any posters concerning the Ten Commandments or Bible scripture to be displayed? The same government that says prayer at public events is wrong because it might offend someone? The same government that has clearly tried to erase any reference to God, but swears to this same God when taking the oath of office? Insists that people say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" because it might offend someone?
Can't say I'm what one would call a religious person, but I do believe if everyone treated other people as they would like to be treated it might be a more pleasant world to live in. Not just the "Golden Rule" but good old common sense, something people have lost along the way.
Merry Christmas to all!
Are you suggesting that the government has instituted a policy banning free speech?
Ann, The oath that the president must swear or affirm is stated in Article II, Section One of the Constitution. It reads, "Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
There is no mention of god or any deity. Nevertheless, I wish everyone a Merry Solstice! :-)
Saying "Merry Christmas" to me is about as useful as saying "Happy Hanukkah." You're not offending me, you're just addressing me with something that I have no use for. I take offense when you *insist* on saying "Merry Christmas" even though I've let you know that I don't celebrate it.
Ta,
Merry Solstice to you as well...
At least the Soltice is a factual astronomical event, regardless of whether one celebrates it or not. The solstices and equinoxes happen regardless of culture or beliefs, and as a worldwide agrarian culture, we never would have survived by not building our calendar around them and marking them in ceremonial ways. Recognizing the Solstice does not in itself endorse or deny any religious or cultural beliefs that consider it to be a special day other than for astronomical reasons.
That cannot be said about any of the other religious or national holidays.
Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Merry Solstice, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Holidays, I love them all! I've even met a few Muslims who are moderate Muslims, and I say Eid Mubarak to them as well as Merry Christmas (Sorry about the spelling--not sure what correct spelling of that is.) And mike-464493, you make an excellent point about the Winter Solstice. I remember as a child (I was born in the early 1950's) loving to look at all the holiday greeting cards that we got in the mail, and loving every one of them, religious ones, secular ones, all of them! And NONE of those above phrases offends me. How could they? After all, they all exemplify our pluralistic freedom to choose the belief system or world view that each individual decides on.
I do not find Merry Christmas offensive. I find it odd. That a person would proudly proclaim that they are delusional.
Get your facts straight Ann, it's not about "offending" people it's about a government endorsement of religion which is against the Constitution.
Maybe christians should stop demanding special priviliges there wouldn't be any problems.
What's wrong with "Happy Solstice"? It is universal and indisputable.
That's a rather ignorant myth. No state can require any religious oath in order to be a witness in court.
Arkansas' constitution does prohibit atheists from public office (as do several other states), but that provision has been unconstitutional and unenforceable for a very long time, technically since 1868 when the 14th Amendment was passed, and especially since the Incorporation Doctrine was adopted.
The states can no longer be theocracies, as much as that disappoints you Christofascists.
mike,
"The solstices and equinoxes happen regardless of culture or beliefs, and as a worldwide agrarian culture, we never would have survived by not building our calendar around them and marking them in ceremonial ways."
But what am I going to do with all these animal carcasses? Say it ain't so...
The knowledge that in the end there will be NO religions is the only good thing to know about religions. In a couple of billion years the sun will swell to Red Giant size and boil the Earth and it's puny humans away and eradicate everything every written or devised by theologians. Good riddance!
Christians and Christianity has been and continues to be oppressed, excoriated, eviscerated, discriminated, and vilfied around the world, The United States most notably; not a peep out of the (I.H.E.U., we may as well say U.N.) People better wake up; see their game? It's called abject social engineering of the very worst stripe. Now we're supposed to weep for atheists, the very people attacking Christianity with impunity? Man, the bias is glaring. Christian's were fed to the lions once. Once.
The opposite is true--Christians and Muslims and all religions ATTACK the atheists and their right to co-exist peacefully without being brainwashed. Sad world we live in when Hitler's techniques to brainwash exists in every single religion.
It looks like christian big game hunters have turned the tide. There will be no lions to feed them to after they shoot the last one... well, there is always football...LMAO
more2bits is right! therockofages, you do not know your own religion's history. For a list of some of Christianities "brightest moments", go here. . .
http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html
Remember love your neighbor as yourself???
Unfortunately ALL RELIGIONS somehow always put an IF in there...
Please provide a verifiable instance of a Christian not being allowed to worship that doesn't involve a government or public school setting.
I can't walk into a church, temply, or synagogue of any religion and speak what I know openly and honestly. I know too much. It's not that anyone is an atheist so much as you're non-compliant to the goals of the hive.
The only thing you absolutely have to know is the location of the public library. -- Albert Einstein
"Hidden beyond my understanding
alone as I, half-made exists
a breathing emulation portraying
to his surroundings himself
as an image transformed by will
becoming more sustaining to me
within his breasts my pulsing life
he straddles the longed for chasm
where in eternity awaits me
as I prepare my turn to pass
a sweetness clear and honeyed
to keep our lives electrified
sweep away the cell morose
decay rebuilt by a nurtured kiss
such touch denied, unsatisfied
to complete our beauty of life
Hidden beyond my understanding
alone as I, he half-made exists
the unknown, other part of me "
Do you think I could get away with reading that at the synagogue even though it was written by a man, the same man who wrote How long oh, Lord, How long ? Not likely since it's re-written from the woman's perspective. Just as valid, but it does not comply with the hive.
And as long as you attempt to force you mental delusions on us, i will keep rooting for the lions....and I'll enjoy watching. Destruction of a mind is never an acceptable thing, especially the mind of a child.
I think it goes a little something like this:
"Cindy Lou, what are you doing up there?"
"I came to see you for Christmas. No one should be alone for Christmas. Your angry and it's my fault they think you're the roasted beast. I opened that box thinking most people actually try to live what they believe. For that I am sorry."
Of course, I'm delusional so lions don't exist, right ?
There is not really that much difference between believers and non-believers. Believers hold that non-believers will spend eternity in hell, non-believers hold that believers will spend eternity in ignorance.
The point is that spending eternity anywhere reduces the importance of our short lives to nothingness. PS: a finite time embedded in the context of the infinite is zero.
The irony of the position of the believer is that, in a desperate attempt to make sense out of the world around him through faith, he only makes that short experience meaningless. The irony of the position of the non-believer is that, in an attempt to make sense out of the world around him through observation, he only proves that he cannot.
The problem is man creates God in his own bigoted image, instead of the other way around.
So you're saying God creates man in HIS OWN BIGOTED image?
Unknown
Why do you even care what other people believe? It is non of your business just like it is non of my business that you think other peoples beliefs are absurd. Keep it to yourself and live and let live. That is what this country is all about. I can believe and you can think me absurd. Isn't it a wonderful life!!!
Ginny--to live in a free society means that people do not have to keep their thoughts to themselves. With the freedoms that our founding fathers gave us, the first one involves freedom of speech. Here on the vine is one of the best forums for that freedom of speech. This vine, like many others, represents the free marketplace of ideas. We each get to come here and practice that freedom. It would benefit all of us if each of us would endeavor to put our best foot forward when debating issues, and use diplomacy. There are good examples and poor examples of diplomacy on all sides of this issue.
The problem is that they don't think he is mad as long as it is God on the other end of the hair dryer.
Emo Philips
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me
Lol that is a good one!
But so true, so true.
Stephen Roberts
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours
I always liked this quote....at least it stops most people and gets them to think for a moment.
Does this mean I'll never be called for (or can get out of) jury duty in Arkansas? Sweet!
Join the crowd.
Go with the flow, go with the lemmings.
I just went to state funded community college and took a religions course and the prof tried to sell Christianity as THE only true religion. When I challenged statements he made as facts he gave the most ridiculous answers I had ever heard from an person educated in religion. It was disgusting. What made me feel good was that at least 25% of the class of young adults were atheists and fairly open about it. In this country agnostics atheists and the unattached are on the rise. One only need look at Germany to see the utter failure of Christianity...and yet here in our military schools, Christianity is being shoved it down the throats of future officers...making cowards out of many of them for not objecting....just like Germany. In matters small, if you can't speak up, you will never speak up in matters large. Any priest or minister who has studied religion in a progressive school knows that the Xmas story is a complete and total fabrication with errors galore. But do any say that? God forbid.
If you have to study religion then it really isn't religion... at least the right kind. That was Christ's whole point: religion is what we call the interactions of the human race that keep it HUMAN.
... so even atheists are really a part of religion ... the right kind.