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John MacDougall / AFP - Getty Images
German Chancellor Angela Merkel, right, prepares Wednesday in Berlin to cast her ballot with other MPs after a debate in the German parliament's lower house over a law governing circumcision.
By Donald Snyder, NBC News special correspondent
The German parliament voted Wednesday to keep male circumcision legal, ending an international controversy that started when a Cologne court ruled the practice constitutes “bodily harm.”
The new law, proposed by German Chancellor Angela Merkel, permits traditional Jewish circumcision, in which Jews trained in circumcision (mohels) circumcise male babies on the eighth day after birth, in accordance with the Torah.
The government bill won by a hefty margin: 434 in favor and 100 against. Forty-six abstained. At a rally near the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin, roughly 20 demonstrators protested the new law.
Opponents of the legislation submitted an alternative that would have permitted circumcision only after a male turns 14 years old and consents to the procedure. This measure was defeated 462 to 91.
Debate divides country
This debate over circumcision began in May after the Cologne court ruled that the botched circumcision of a 4-year-old Muslim boy violated the child’s rights because it constituted “illegal bodily harm,” even with parental consent. Muslims circumcise boys at a later age than Jews, and usually a doctor performs the circumcision. There’s no Muslim equivalent to the Jewish mohel.
Though strictly local in its jurisdiction, the Cologne ruling set off a furor over the future legal status of circumcision nationwide. Many doctors and hospitals stopped performing the procedure on Muslims for fear of prosecution. Jewish mohels, who are often rabbis, continued to perform circumcisions, risking prosecution. Charges were brought against a 64-year-old rabbi for performing circumcisions in Hof, a small town near the Czech border.
Bundestag member Kerstin Griese, 46, of the Social Democratic Party, who is an expert on religious issues, hailed the legislation. In an email to NBC News, she said Jewish and Muslim children have the right to grow up in their parents’ religion and should feel at home in Germany.
“Germany should not be the only country in the world that punishes the performing of this religious ritual,” she wrote.
Philip Missfelder, 33, a Bundestag member from Merkel’s Christian Democratic Party, said the legislation protects the child while ensuring freedom of religious practice.
“For me it is important that Jewish life in Germany can continue without hindrance,” he said.
A leader in the fight against the government law was Marlene Rupprecht, 64, a Social Democrat. When asked why she opposes the government-proposed legislation, she said she didn’t want Germany to go down in history as a country that legalizes injury to children just because of what the Torah or Bible says.
“Ritual circumcision is an irreparable and medically unnecessary procedure,” Rupprecht said.
Differing schools of thought
German society is highly secular. Religion is generally viewed as a relic from the past. This is especially true in what was formerly Communist East Germany, where atheism was the official doctrine for 44 years.
“The basic sentiment here is anti-religious,” said Sylke Tempel, editor-in-chief of Internationale Politik, a foreign policy journal published by the German Council of Foreign Affairs. “And Germans throw overboard anything that has to do with tradition.”
According to Tempel, the Cologne ruling was not a deliberate attack on Islam or Judaism but showed a total misunderstanding of how important circumcision is to both religions.
TNS Emnid, a German polling organization, found in a July 2012 survey that 56 percent of Germans agree with the Cologne ruling.
Deirdre Berger, executive director of the American Jewish Committee in Berlin, a Jewish advocacy organization, said that the Cologne ruling can be traced to a body of law and medical literature that has been accumulating over the past decade.
This school of thought, based on little scientific evidence, holds that circumcision does irreversible physical damage and causes emotional trauma, a view held by the German Association of Pediatricians, which has called for a two-year moratorium on circumcisions.
By contrast, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the World Health Organization endorse circumcision for its medical benefits, particularly in fighting the spread of HIV in Africa.
While applauding Wednesday’s vote to legalize circumcision, Berger does not believe this ends the controversy. The law is likely to be appealed to Germany’s Supreme Court, she said, and could open the door to more restrictive legislation in other European countries that are having similar anti-circumcision debates.
Donald Snyder, an NBC News producer for more than 25 years, is a special correspondent for NBCNews.com.
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Leave a Comment:
Unclean! Unclean! You uncircumcised people are unclean!
I can't imagine having extra skin. All I know is that I heard vague references to a "flap", and there's a Bible story where David brought 300 foreskins to King Saul as proof of bravery.
And in health class, we were taught you uncircs had to wash more. Heathens.
I take it that this is a German court banning an essential Jewish rite is something you don't find interesting...? Or is WWII something they don't teach in history class any more?
That's right, journal, they don't teach the truth about WWII, plus the didiots are fools NOT to circumcise, as it prevents disease and cancer.
Yeah, whatever.
I'd pay a year's salary rather than be circumcised. That "extra skin" is the most sensitive and pleasurable part of my genitals. It's way harder for women to keep clean down there btw, but we don't cut parts off baby girls to make it easier.
It's not "extra". It's standard equipment, and cutting it off is bodily harm, not "bodily harm". If ChestyPuller had been left with it, he'd have no trouble imagining it, and in all probability he'd like having it very much. Washing it is quick, easy - and fun.
As a gay male, keeping it clean may be easy but let me tell you A LOT don't do a good job of it!
And as most mothers will tell you, getting a teenage boy to keep anything clean is a chore
If i had a dollar for every girl i have ever heard complain about freshmen dorms smelling!
I dont miss it at all, how can i , i never knew it
And in the end, its a medical fact that all things equal, uncut is not as healthy as cut!
So because some men have poor personal hygiene that makes it ok to cut parts off baby boys?
Women who were cut at birth don't miss anything either. Doesn't make it right.
Everyone, male or female, should be able to decide for themselves if they want parts of their genitals cut off or not. It's their body.
I think that for reasons of religious freedom the procedure should NOT be performed on a child until the child is old enough to consent. This places a higher priority on the child's right to choose whether or not he will participate in the family's religion than the parent's right to choose for the child. As an adult, my parents cannot force me to take part in any religion, so they shouldn't have the right to irreparably change my body based on their religious beliefs.
I find it funny that the article disputes the German's assertion that circumcision does irreversible physical damage to a child. If obviously does, unless someone has found out a way to regrow organs.
Saying that it is cleaner is analogous to suggesting that we cut off every baby's ears because it easier to keep clean that way. As an added bonus, you won't get skin cancer on your ears if you don't have any. While we are at it, why don't we remove every part of the human body that is not absolutely essential for life? Routine appendectomies all around. And, who ever really needs a pinkie finger? Cut it off!
The claim that circumcision reduces the chances of transmitting STD's is pretty weak. Countries like Germany, which have a low incidence of STDs also have a low incidence of circumcision. While the USA has a higher rate of both STD infection and circumcision.
I think it is a weak correlation based on flawed research specifically looking at rates of HIV transmission between homosexuals in Africa. So, perhaps if you are a homosexual male and plan to have many partners it would be a good idea to be circumcised. But what if you are monogamous (either homosexual or heterosexual)? Everyone should be given the choice.
It is actually not cleaner to have a cut up penis. It has now also been observed that natural boys have the same bacteria as natural girls and that cut boys have different (invasive) bacteria. A partial penis (cut up penis) is just missing parts, but as such it is invaded by not natural bacteria.
Mark Lyndon read and learn, do it for your own sake.
hummmm! Must have been a slow news week in Germany...
Soooo much to do, about such a little thing!!
Allow the parents to make that choice....not the government!!
@romilio: If you read some of my other posts on this discussion, it should be apparent that I know a lot about genital cutting.
@duuug: We don't allow parents to make that choice for girls. Why don't boys get to choose for themselves - it's their body. It's not like it can't wait. There are lots of countries where most men are circumcised, but just two (Israel and the US) where more than half of baby boys are circumcised. Most other countries do it anywhere from around the age of seven to adolescence.
@ChestyPuller- So sad to know that the vast majority of you don't know how to use a bar of soap. Your hygiene classes really failed you. What a joke. I swear half of your brain was removed when they hacked off the better portion of your manhood. No loss to humanity. People like you shouldn't breed anyway ;)
I don't see that circumcision is any more 'bodily harm' than tattoos, breast enhancement, facelifts or botox injections. What is it with courts that makes them believe they need to control people's lives? Aren't they supposed to be there upholding existing laws?
To quote Tears for Fears: "Everybody Wants to Rule the World"
I'd just like to say I'm not a fan of 80s New Wave, but the quote's relevant.
If by "controlling people's lives" you mean giving infants elective surgeries to remove body parts, it's because infants can't consent.
What is it with people who think they have the right to mutilate the sexual organs of children without their permission, before they're old enough to make their own decisions?
You can't have tattoos, breast enhancement, facelifts or botox injections performed on your child though.
No-one is against adult men choosing to be circumcised, but boys should be protected just as girls are. Why shouldn't everyone have the right to decide for themselves whether or not they have parts of their genitals cut off? It's their body.
"I don't see that circumcision is any more 'bodily harm' than tattoos, breast enhancement, facelifts or botox injections."
It's illegal to give a child a tattoo, breast enhancement, a facelift or a botox injection. It's illegal to give a non-consenting adult a tattoo, breast enhancement, a facelift or a botox injection, and if you did, it would rightly be considered bodily harm - even though none of those removes a functional part of their body.
One simple reason to do it at early age is that as a baby you won't remember later on, neither would have to make a tough decision as an adult aware of your genitalia. I'm glad my parents allowed it when i was 4 months old, and is not only for Jews or Muslims, I'm Hispanic Catholic.
But it is not okay to do tattoos, breast enhancement, facelifts or botox injections to a BABY!!!!
The parts of the penis that are cut off are some of the most highly innervated parts of the human. The lips, nipples and fingertips have similar touch sense. To take this away from another person without their consent is heinous. To do this to a newborn baby is creepy, child abuse and a human rights VIOLATION.
In the States and many intelligent places you cannot tattoo your child or arrange to enhance breasts until the age of majority (usually 16 or 18 yrs.) If someone want to have elective , non-medically necessary surgery go for it once you are legally allowed to consent. It just that at 18 how many boys would want to join their father's 'club' if the initiation was cutting off the end of his dick?
Oh yah that's right, from the article, I forgot. Circumcision helps slow the spread of Gaiyds. Seems a little weird but apparently, the uncircs must keep the virus around longer cuz of the massive 20 pound folds of skin down there which provide an Aids-haven.
In Europe, almost no men are circumcised unless their parents were Jewish or Muslim. The rate of HIV is about one third of that in the USA though.
There are at least seven African countries where men are more likely to be HIV+ if they've been circumcised: Cameroon, Ghana, Lesotho, Malawi, Rwanda, Swaziland, and Zimbabwe. Eg in Malawi, the HIV rate is 13.2% among circumcised men, but only 9.5% among intact men. In Rwanda, the HIV rate is 3.5% among circumcised men, but only 2.1% among intact men. If circumcision really worked against AIDS, this just wouldn't happen.
Women have way more "folds of skin" down there than men btw, but it's illegal to cut parts off girls.
There is no data that shows HIV, HPV or any STD change or any real benefit to cutting off parts of a baby boys penis in the US, EU JP....In Africa the same % of cut men and natural penis men have HIV. Real world population studies show that a man with a natural penis is at no higher risk of HIV and HPV.
A Victory for boys named Helmut all over the world...
hahahah.
Well, look at it this way. It's good to see the Jews and Muslims getting together on something...even though they might agree that that's a cutting remark.
As with FGM during a girl's adolescence, the circumcision of baby boys is Male Genital Mutilation (MGM), and should be outlawed, except for compelling medical reasons, worldwide. Enough of barbarism.
I wonder if any of those who object to circumcision have young children with pierced ears?
Most of them probably don't, but I don't think it makes sense to compare piercing ears with cutting off erogenous tissue.
Yeah, great analogy. It's already illegal to pierce a child's genitals.
Punching a hole in ears does not remove 3 feet of arteries, veins and capillaries and thousands of nerve endings (above 10,000).
Steven, I guess you don't have the parts so you don't know that it is not just skin that is amputated. The parts cut off include a THE MOST innervated parts of the male genitals (the most innervated parts of the male).
I don't trust those German Doctors. When I was little my mother took me to a German Doctor to be circumcised. When he got through I couldn't walk for a year. Of course, I was only 3 days old. hehe
Ya deweydan, and the SOB didn't cut enough of it off.
Thousands of years gone by and they still can't keep their hands off the genitals of babies ... Seriously, what is it with the religious and the sexual organs of children? Oh, yeah, perversion.
Do syphilitic old rabbis still suck the fresh blood off of circumcised penises, thereby spreading disease among the babies? Gosh, I hope so, don't you? Savages. But, hey, Muslims are worse. They sexually mutilate girls AND boys.
I wonder what day it was, you know, God sitting around in heaven, wondering what to do for the rest of the afternoon, then suddenly, an epiphany ... "I think I'll decree that the foreskins of little Jewish boys be cut off", oh, won't that be fun and oh so profoundly important? And, it will give people something to fret over and celebrate for no apparent reason.
Gee, I wonder what "God" will come up with next? Maybe jamming ice picks through little Jewish boy's testicles would be fun! Shall we pray for a revelation?
That was disgusting to read.
Yes it was disgusting but it was spot on!
If god (if there was one) if the being god is a metaphor for came to earth, he'd probably say, "Vat you don't have indoor plumbing already?"
Pray Hard-Apparently you don't know about the covenant made between between the Abraham and God. It was a token and sign in the flesh of him and all his seed forever after. They were not to mix their seed with those who were not of the covenant. Of course you can choose to make fun of it. Interesting name you chose.
There has been a rise in groups attempting to outlaw the practice of circumcision across the United States. Calling the practice barbaric, savage and equating it to female circumcision. From California to New York, Minnesota to Florida. Intact America is a national group, which like others, considers the practice unethical and immoral as well. It believes removing part of a person's healthy body by another person is criminal act. But it has been unable to get laws passed against it so far. Apparently religious rights and perhaps medical benefits so far have prevented such laws.
As was stated in article and according to a multitude of Medical Professions in America there are definite benefits of circumcision. The Mayo Clinic and CDC lists the following:
1. Easier hygiene as it is simpler to wash.
2. Decreased risk of urinary tract infections. Infections in males are low already, but in uncircumcised males it is more common. Severed infections early in life can lead to kidney problems later on.
3. Decreased risk of sexually transmitted infections. Circumcised men appear to have a lower risk of certain sexually transmitted infections, including HIV and
4. Prevention of penile problems. Occasionally, the foreskin on uncircumcised men can be difficult or impossible to retract (phimosis). This can lead to inflammation of it or the head.
5. Decreased risk of penile cancer. Although this cancer is rare, it is less common in circumcised men. In addition, it educes the spread of human papillomavirus, some strains of which can cause cervical cancer in women.So cervical cancer occurs less in women whose sexual partners are circumcised men.
6. Decreased risk of prostate cancer. A new study suggests that circumcision could be tied to a slightly lower rate of prostate cancer.
7. Increased pleasure or no change.While critics say circumcision decreases sexual pleasure, there are currently no scientific studies to support this claim.In fact, study participants in Africa who had been circumcised asadults reported increased pleasure no change.
1) It takes me two seconds in the shower. It's way harder for females to keep clean down there, but we don't cut parts off girls to make it easier.
2) Girls get almost four times as many UTI's as boys, but we wouldn't consider surgery. Childhood UTI's don't seem to lead to kidney problems anyway:
http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1378179
"Conclusions: The risk of long-term consequences from childhood UTI seems to be very low."
3) The longest running study of male circumcision and STI's showed a slightly *higher* rate of STI's among circumcised men:
http://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(07)00707-X/abstract
4) Most intact men are juuust fine though. I'd pay a year's salary rather than be circumcised.
5) Penile cancer is a) rarer than vulval cancer, b) rarer than male breast cancer, c) rarer in plenty of countries which don't circumcise than in the USA, where most men are.
6) Other studies (eg Kaplan, Gibson, McCredie, Jackson, Wynder) have found no link between prostate cancer and circumcision.
7) Kim and Pang 2006 (255 circumcised men)
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06646.x
"About 6% answered that their sex lives improved, while 20% reported a worse sex life after circumcision."
Frisch 2011
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/06/13/ije.dyr104.short
"Conclusions Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties in Danish men and with a range of frequent sexual difficulties in women, notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment."
Strange. I always thought that man was made in god's image. If so presumably he also has a foreskin. Why then his subsequent command to cut it off. Did he suddenly realise that it was a design fault, which could endanger the health of his creation so he had to issue an amendment to the user manual asking all men to remove it?
I have 4 uncircumcised sons. Early on (2 1/2 yrs) I showed them how to bathe their bodies all of it. By 4 they could bathe themselves. The reason religious people don't want warm water and soap on genitals is their fear of onanism (self loving). My number 4 son had to reminded to wash other parts of his body as he was having so much fun in keeping his penis clean. If you don't have indoor plumbing your on your own. If you do show your kids how to wash themselves.--Duh!
Mark, every one of your comments is a myth or proven wrong.
For example, penile cancer is so rare that a doctor would have to circumcise 100,000 in hopes that 1 of those children would not get penile cancer when he was in his 70's.
Except that in at least one study a third of the men with penile cancer had been circumcised.
If these are current statement, then the Mayo Clinic and CDC are wrong--they have apparently never read the research, which makes it scary to depend on these folks for anything else.
Hey all of you reading comprehension challenged people- you are talking about the health benefits of circumcision, which are controversial and unproven, while the German vote was about religious circumcision by Jews.
1) You are wrong, there are complelling medical evidence and research documenting health benefits.
2) You are wrong again, the Cologne court ruling which triggered the new law, was due to a 4 year old muslim boy who was circumcised, not a jew.
2) The law affected circumcision of all children. Of the 580 voters, 434 voted in favor, 100 voted against and 46 abstained. Since both the German constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights seem to suggest that circumcision of either sex is illegal, this battle may not be over.
1) If there is compelling medical evidence in favor of male circumcision, explain these:
Canadian Paediatric Society
http://www.cps.ca/en/documents/position/circumcision
"Recommendation: Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed."
http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/handouts/circumcision
"Circumcision is a 'non-therapeutic' procedure, which means it is not medically necessary."
"After reviewing the scientific evidence for and against circumcision, the CPS does not recommend routine circumcision for newborn boys. Many paediatricians no longer perform circumcisions."
Royal Australasian College of Physicians
http://www.racp.edu.au/index.cfm?objectid=65118B16-F145-8B74-236C86100E4E3E8E
"In the absence of evidence of risk of substantial harm, informed parental choice should be respected. Informed parental consent should include the possibility that the ethical principle of autonomy may be better fulfilled by deferring the circumcision to adolescence with the young man consenting on his own behalf."
(almost all the men responsible for this statement will be circumcised themselves, as the male circumcision rate in Australia in 1950 was about 90%. "Routine" circumcision is now *banned* in public hospitals in Australia.)
British Medical Association
http://bma.org.uk/-/media/Files/PDFs/Practical%20advice%20at%20work/Ethics/Circumcision.pdf
"to circumcise for therapeutic reasons where medical research has shown other techniques to be at least as effective and less invasive would be unethical and inappropriate."
The Royal Dutch Medical Association
http://knmg.artsennet.nl/Diensten/knmgpublicaties/KNMGpublicatie/Nontherapeutic-circumcision-of-male-minors-2010.htm
"The official viewpoint of KNMG and other related medical/scientific organisations is that non-therapeutic circumcision of male minors is a violation of children's rights to autonomy and physical integrity. Contrary to popular belief, circumcision can cause complications - bleeding, infection, urethral stricture and panic attacks are particularly common. KNMG is therefore urging a strong policy of deterrence. KNMG is calling upon doctors to actively and insistently inform parents who are considering the procedure of the absence of medical benefits and the danger of complications."
Mark Lyndon I earlier compelled you to read, but now I can see you do, just that you read the wrong things :)
It's illegal to cut off a girl's prepuce, or to make any incision on a girl's genitals, even if no tissue is removed, and even if the parents think it's their religious right or obligation. Even a pinprick is banned.
Why don't boys get the same protection? Everyone should be able to decide for themselves whether or not they want parts of their genitals cut off. It's *their* body.
Sad day for Humans rights. My view of circumcision is that it should be a personal choice when the person is old enough to decide for themselves. I was circumcised as a infant and wish I wasn't. Just let it be your son's decision.
have the right to abortion but not circumcision
someone tell me how that works
Being pro-choice is about the woman's right to choose what happens with her body. Being against circumcision is about the child's right to choose what happens with his or hers.
Abortion is a personal decision of the mother to control her own body. Banning circumcicson allow men a personal decision to control his own body. Do you get it yet?
poor germans. they want to move on but their politicans want to keep it going.
So George.. Big supporter of the right for parents to mutilate their children, are you? Those dastardly German politicians, suppressing your rights like that!....
Big supporter of the right for parents to mutilate their children, are you?
I'm one of those "mutilated" people. I don't rmember the "trauma" and both my wife and I like the way it looks now.
Thanks Mom and Dad!
Grow up, it's not mutilation nor traumatic.
Well Johnny, I got beaten as a kid. In hindsight, I really don't mind it much... For one, I hardly remember it, since I was little, and for two, since it was always over slacking at my work, it led me to become a fastidious worker who does his job exceptionally well. In hindsight, it made me who I am, and I consider it character building.
Let's apply your reasoning here... Perhaps we should reconsider the whole illegal to beat kids thing because we've found someone who doesn't seem to mind having being beaten as a child. Hell, let's just let everyone do it! Dandy, huh?
Chopping a body part, unnecessarily, off of a toddler is a practice best left in ancient times. Whether you remember it or not, it is traumatic, and a horrible way to introduce some little boy into the world.
Let's apply your reasoning here... Perhaps we should reconsider the whole illegal to beat kids thing because we've found someone who doesn't seem to mind having being beaten as a child. Hell, let's just let everyone do it! Dandy, huh?
I love it using the extreme to make a ridiculous comparison.
They are not even in the same league and when you make that comparison you are belittling child abuse. My birth father, who died when I was very young gave the okay for circumcision, it wasn't traumatic for me but the beatings and worse that I endured at the hands of my drunken step father for years were. They have stuck with me for life.
You really can't tell the difference between childhood beatings and a circumcision....really?
You're an ass
johnny_concerned, if you think there is any difference between beating a child and mutilating a child's genitalia, watch a video of a circumcision being performed. If you don't watch one, you're a willfully ignorant brat.
Thank goodness. I'm relieved. That was close cut. :)
"she said Jewish and Muslim children have the right to grow up in their parents’ religion and should feel at home in Germany."
Newborn babies do not have a religion, and may choose as adults to adopt a religion that shuns circumcision, such as Sikhism. Cutting a (normal, healthy, functional non-renewing) part of their bodies off without their consent violates their human rights.
Let's see... Two thousand year old ritual which results in the mutiliation of the sexual organs of millions of unconsenting infants every year and it's the people who want to stop it who are the bad guys... Right. Why do I get the feeling none of you would be defending the rights of parents to have doctors surgically remove a nipple or a clitoris from a female infant?
Thank you Angela Merkel and the people of Germany.
Shame on you Angela Merkel. This new law is against the German constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights.
It's about time someone stood up to these wackos who still believe that the genital mutilation of baby boy is an acceptable practice. Cutting off genital parts of a defenseless baby is, or should be, a crime.
I never realized German bows down and prays to the foreskin on a baby penis. What a backward country Germany is, idolizing foreskin. No wonder Germany is the laughing stock of the civilized world. So when do baby girls get circumcision? What is good for the goose is good for the gander. So backwards is Germany. No wonder they got their butt kicked in WWII.
I don't think anyone in the USA bows down and prays to the foreskin on a baby girl (aka prepuce or clitoral hood). It's still illegal to cut it off though.
Voyager, what on Earth are you talking about? You should only post on forums when you are lucid. Germany is a laughing stock and backward nation? Pray tell, where do you come from? Also, it appears that you are criticizing the Germans who want to ban circumcision, but then suggest they also practice female genital cutting in an apparent statement of hyperbole to show that the practice is ridiculous. Which is it, do you support circumcision or oppose it? Finally, Germany did not get its "butt kicked" in WWII. They came pretty damn near to conquering all of Europe. Thank god, English perseverance, American manufacturing, and Russian blood that they didn't.
It's bad enough that adults are subjected to brutality, pain, and suffering in the name of religion. Don't inflict that on innocent children. It's not 3000 BCE anymore. It's the twenty firstcentury. We don't cut out peoples hearts to please the gods and we shouldn't disfigure our infant sons to please the gods. Want to keep the disease rate down? Teach good personal hygiene.
The pain is very minimal for an infant. I am guessing it would fairly bad for a 4 yeard old, and from what I've heard it is excruciatingly painful for a teeenager or adult to have it. The fact is that this an essential part of Jewish faith. I am not Jewish. I am a Christian, who, like Paul, doesn't believe circumcision is necessary. However, if we are to have reliugous freedom, we can not legislate an essential Jewish rite away.
But what about the religious freedom of the child? What if they choose not to be a Jem, Muslim, etc? Don't they have the right to do that without losing part of their body first?
David: 2 thoughts:
1. If it is essential to a religion to tie down an infant boy at 8 days old and remove and amount of skin from his penis that would be the size of a post card when he is an adult. Do it without his permission. Do it with a little wine as the only anesthetic. What does that say about the religion? Keep in mind that this ritual is a demand of the father as a member of the religion, not a requirement for the child.
2. A harder question: Where do we stop in allowing religious actions? Some Xian groups will beat children severely, even until they are dead. Is that OK? No. Some Xian groups will give a small amount of wine to teenagers as part of a ritual. Is that OK? Sure. What about all the stuff in between? Where do we draw the line? I would draw it at the point of any surgery that causes permanent scaring to any part of the child's body.
How about everyone just mind their own god d*mned business for a change? If you don't want to have your boys circumcised, than don't. I am sick and tired of the crowd that knows best how everyone else should live and raise their children.
Yeah everyone should mind their own business when you have sex with your daughter. Why doesn't everyone just leave your family alone?
That's one of the arguments used by people that defend and promote female genital cutting.
If the Muslims didn't engage in this practice as well as the Jews, Europe as a whole would be glad to ban circumcision. Given the influence of Muslims, they dare not.
The parts that are cut off are some of the most highly innervated parts of the human. The lips, nipples and fingertips have similar touch sense. To take this away from another person without their consent is heinous. To do this to a newborn baby is creepy, child abuse and a human rights VIOLATION.
It's about time someone stood up to these wackos who still believe that the genital mutilation of baby boy is an acceptable practice. Cutting off geniatal parts of a defenseless baby is, or should be, a crime.
Those saying that preventing the cutting off of penis parts of a baby boy violates the cutter's freedom of religion, are way out there in irrational land. One's religion ends where their knife touches another human's body. The idea that another human's ritual (rite) trumps ones right to ones OWN body parts is insane and creepy. Baby boy penis parts removal cuts off about 20000 thousand fine touch and stretch nerve endings. No human should be subjected to sensory system harm as well as a forced decrease of sexual function and PLEASURE for life!
The baby screams and tensed up in intense pain, as the nurse cut away, the baby cry and cry and turned red. The baby tried to move but is unable due to his arms and legs were tied up. The baby did not stop crying until he was totally exhausted after about 8-9 minutes. Then for the next 20 minutes, the baby shake a little every now and then and cry out in spurts. That is what I saw happened to the baby that was next to my baby daughter in the hospital nursery. The father came in an hour later and I felt like punching him.