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Uwe Lein / AFP - Getty Images file
A leading European court ruled that German citizen Khaled El-Masri should receive damages from Macedonia over his claims he was an innocent victim of the CIA's extraordinary rendition program.
Updated at 6:15 p.m. to include response from NSC:
The European Court of Human Rights ruled Thursday in favor of a German man who claims he was mistaken for a terrorist, then kidnapped and tortured by the CIA as part of the controversial extraordinary-rendition program.
The court ordered that Khaled El-Masri should be paid about $78,000 in damages by Macedonia, the European country where he says he was captured before being taken to a secret prison in Afghanistan known as the "Salt Pit."
James Goldston, lead lawyer on the case and executive director of the New York-based Open Society Justice Initiative, told NBC News that the ruling was significant because it was the first time a court had established "beyond reasonable doubt" that what El-Masri was saying had happened.
He said that in light of the ruling the Obama administration should apologize to El-Masri, pay damages and launch a wide-ranging investigation into his case and others like it.
"Notably, the court found that the CIA’s treatment of Mr. El-Masri at the airport in Skopje, Macedonia in January 2004 amounted to torture. This judgment by the highest court in Europe represents an authoritative condemnation of some of the most objectionable tactics employed in the post-9/11 war on terror," Goldston said in a statement.
Macedonia's 'complete denial'
According to El-Masri, he was brutally interrogated at the CIA-run Afghan prison for four months after he was flown there from Macedonia.
The European court's ruling said El-Masri's account of his "alleged ordeal was very detailed, specific and consistent."
While Macedonia had issued a "complete denial," there was a "a wealth of compelling evidence supporting his [El-Masri's] allegations and rejecting the Government’s explanation as utterly untenable," it added.
The ruling said El-Masri’s account was supported by several factors including:
- aviation and flight logs;
- geological records of minor earthquakes he recalled during his detention in Afghanistan;
- sketches he drew of the prison where he was held;
- and scientific tests on his hair showing "he had spent time in a South Asian country and had been deprived of food for an extended period of time."
The ruling said the court "observes" that El-Masri was taken from his hotel in Skopje, Macedonia, to the city's airport where he was "beaten severely by several disguised men dressed in black."
"He was stripped and sodomized with an object. He was placed in a nappy and dressed in a dark blue short-sleeved tracksuit. Shackled and hooded, and subjected to total sensory deprivation, the applicant [El-Masri] was forcibly marched to a CIA aircraft … When on the plane, he was thrown to the floor, chained down and forcibly tranquillized," the ruling said.
"While in that position, the applicant was flown to Kabul (Afghanistan) via Baghdad," it added.
Read the court's full ruling (pdf)
Macedonian authorities said they would not comment until they are formally notified of the ruling, The Associated Press reported. Though the case focused on Macedonia, it drew broader attention because of how sensitive the CIA extraordinary renditions were for Europe.
They involved abducting and interrogating terror suspects without court sanction in the years following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the U.S., under former President George W. Bush.
A 2007 Council of Europe probe accused 14 European governments of permitting the CIA to run detention centers or carry out rendition flights between 2002 and 2005.
American seeks political asylum in Sweden alleging torture, FBI coercion
U.S. Muslim travelers say they're still saddled with 9-11 baggage
'Huge victory for justice'
The White House referred NBC News' request for comment on the European court's ruling to the National Security Council press office, which responded later Thursday.
"The United States government does not comment on what are alleged to be activities of the intelligence community," Caitlin Hayden, NSC deputy spokesperson told NBC in an email response.
She pointed to three Executive Orders issued by President Barack Obama on his second full day in office on U.S. detention, interrogation and transfer policies directing that detainees in all circumstances be "treated humanely," that CIA detention facilities be closed "expeditiously," and that transfer practices "do not result in the transfer of individuals to face torture. The United States government is implementing those recommendations."
Goldston, who argued the case before the court, told NBC News that the United States had never commented on the claims officially and attempts to get a U.S. court to hear El-Masri’s case had failed.
He said he hoped the European court’s decision would prompt action in the U.S.
How I see America, from a former Gitmo prisoner
"The Obama administration should now apologize and acknowledge what the court has found, and undertake a more sweeping, intensive inquiry that what has been done to date," Goldston said.
"It’s incumbent on the administration to do that," he said, adding that the U.S. should also pay compensation to El-Masri.
Jamil Dakwar, head of the human rights program at the American Civil Liberties Union, told the AP that the ruling was "a huge victory for justice and the rule of law."
He predicted "it will make it harder for the United States to continue burying its head in the sand" about accusations that its officials tortured suspects in the war on terrorism.
El-Masri was given a prison sentence in 2010 for assaulting the mayor of Neu-Ulm, Germany, and is due for release next year, Goldston said.
The court's rulings are binding on the 47 member states of the Council of Europe.
The Associated Press and NBC News' Kari Huus contributed to this report.
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Leave a Comment:
Nothing is beyond the CIA.
Shhh... They're probably reading this right now.
This guy assaulted the major of Nue-Ulm in Germany, serving prison for 3 yrs, not the best person. Why European countries allow immigrants like that is beyond me. Immigrants from Islamic counties worst punishment would be to be deported back to the hell hole country they came from.
The CIA is probably running about a 98% accuracy rate which is a solid "A" in my book. How many terrorist plots have they stopped or networks they shut down. Many, and how was Osama Bin Laden found to get blown away? Rock and roll boys.
Don't like the U.S. tactics? Move, there are third world countries where freedom is wide open if the government does not change the following week You will be very safe, just sleep with one eye open.............
Square dude,
Nice deflection but his current status has nothing to due with the fact that he was kidnapped and tortured by our government.
Seven2Seven,
Love you cons. With your kind it's always....move. Unlike you I expect more out of our country. Don't like it, please follow your suggestion and leave. Maybe if enough of you leave then America can regain the admiration and respect we had before the likes of george bush and dick cheney.
I hope so. This ain't no picnic. Unfortunately special events call for special measures. Errors can be made, it is acceptable. What's not acceptable is the torture because he apparently was innocent, but if he was a terrorist would we care?
Then also the CIA is not a robot, it's made of people and people get emotional too. When the human factor is involved, things don't always go by the book.
Then also Bush was president then, his executive orders might have been more lax.
Why should Obama apologize, justice demands Bush be tried as a sniveling war criminal along with the CIA. Can;t wait till he and his kind are dead and burning in hell.
Bring him home to the USA, the article points out we forgot to waterboard him properly. There lies the truth.
"Khaled El-Masri ", It's interesting that they called him German. I'll bet there is not one drop of German blood in him, or even european for that matter.
And I forgot to mention that Europe is expecting America to be the bully for the Western world.
"The United States government does not comment on what are alleged to be activities of the intelligence community,"
hahaha of course not.
Leftovers Again : And ? Please tell me, how many americans have Native American drops of blood in them ?
Right, next question.
That's odd, we seem to have written the treaty which includes this clause:
Seven2Seven: Justifying illegal activities just because they have a good success rate is asinine. You would probably be the first in line looking for compensation if this had happened to you.
Think of what type of society the USA is becoming if the CIA and other agencies like it are allowed to operate above the law. We will become just like every other third world country you speak of.
You would become the person sleeping with one eye open, because the CIA could pull you from your bed, haul your dumb-ass off the nowhere and do with you what they pleased.
WAKE UP! Stop giving our hard earned freedoms away just because some government official yells, "Terrorist!".
People must learn a few terms: Colateral Damage & Plausible Deniability. Things like this can and do happen and is done in the name of Security to our Nation. Worse things than this have happened too. Get over it. That's right, get over it. Go on about life and enjoy your ability to go to Church, neighbors home, picnics, hunting, fishing, enjoy professional sports, golfing, movies, dances and schools of your choice. We have hired people ready to kill or die for our Country. A dirty job, yes in deed.
I prefer to investigate, and bring people to justice. I dont get over anything.
The people responsible should be tried by an international court, as war criminals. Period.
Freedon4Everyone. Wait till your ass or your loved one's ass is on the line. Then you can choose if you want an International Court to handle the problem or a trained individual that makes on the spot decisions and choices, right or wrong. You will choose that trained individual, I guarantee you.
EVENTUALLY it will come out that the Company was also bringing captives into the USA thru Mexico & Marana -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinal_Airpark
before being flown by a formations of Marine CH-53 & CH-46's Helo's to FORT HUACHUCA AAB, in Sierra Vista where they were questions & held for 24 hrs before being "disappeared" back to Marana & Mexico on Corporate Jets seized by the DEA & ICE & loaned to The Company .
At least once a week during the Iraq war years, Tucson watched the tight security Helo OPS fly over AFTER Midnight & return .
No, this is an example of the "worst thing". Supposedly, our tradition of rights of the accused go back 8 centuries to the Magna Carta. Unless we are willing to assert that rights are RIGHTS regardless of the risk we don't deserve the freedom we claim to have.
I wonder, are the people who insist that "special circumstances" warrant throwing out basic principles of justice the same people who would insist that suicides, accidental gun deaths, and shopping mall shooting carnage are simply the price we pay for the right to bear arms? Go figure.
"Things like this", also known as crimes against humanity, are what cause blowback like 9/11. And as several military commanders and interrogators in Iraq have testified, our use of torture resulted in violent blowback against the US military, accounting for and estimated 50% of the coalition deaths there.
And when other countries like Iran torture our citizens I expect you not to complain.
"The CIA is probably running about a 98% accuracy rate which is a solid "A" in my book."
If by "probably" you mean "I am about to pull a number out of my posterior," then I absolutely agree with you.
"How many terrorist plots have they stopped or networks they shut down."
I have no idea. However, given that they seem to like to crow loudly about all of their successes, I'd say not that many.
The CIA is probably running about a 98% accuracy rate which is a solid "A" in my book.
Lie or quote your source.
How many terrorist plots have they stopped or networks they shut down.
Zero as far as we know. One according to some politicians. Again, source.
Many,
That means you are probably lying.
and how was Osama Bin Laden found to get blown away?
He was not found by torture. Fact. Source. CNN. Peter Bergen. Also, the White House. Also, the Navy.
Rock and roll truth.
You should learn how terrorists have been found. It hasn't been by torture.
Oh, and you are welcome.
Skrekk, yes of course we can write all the treaties we want, but in the end it's just paperwork. We can write an ideal world in an imaginary book ( the closest one being the Bible) and I am not against it idealistically speaking as it would be a good common objective. But common is not the fact of this world as we are not a united world. There is often someone violating the sanctity of Peace. In this case Al qaeda did, and I can't blame America for pushing back and in times of war, well, cheet happens. Friendly fire happens, abuse happens, kids and women get slaughtered etc.. That's why the first thing humans ought to do is not start a war. I don't know if Al qaeda realizes it but we will never stop retaliating against their attacks and plotting, until we get it out of their gene pool or we take the whole gene pool out if needed. My best advice for Al qaeda would be to quit the violence to obtain satisfaction over their discontent, which we don't even know what those are, except that they are angry people who blame America and the West for their state of feeling. It's BS. There is plenty enough for everyone on this planet to be happy. Greed is a more realistic issue, overpopulation of arid areas is an issue, not sharing the land is an issue, etc.
Who are Americans, Vin? People you hand-pick?
You must be a Republican since you think it's OK for the US to violate not just US domestic laws prohibiting torture, but also violate the very treaty the US wrote to prohibit it internationally.
imwhitewolf I think Seven2Seven may be a conservative, but he is for sure a coward that applauds torture to other individuals and is incapable of acknowledging wrongdoings.
reading inane posts by the likes of the leftist imwhitewolf and the Chavez lover romilio is in fact torture , glad that dinner is ready
Only a matter of time before the bull@!$%# our Government pulls comes out from hiding. We cant just do whatever we please anymore. Just another example of how the government controls the people, when it should be the people that control the government.
Unfortunately, Sam, the average American has a room-temperature IQ: as is demonstrated in these threads. They won't realize what they've lost until it's too late. I believe Ben Franklin said, "The masses are asses." Sad but true.
And speaking of asses, surprised, or not, that no one has remarked about sodomy being standard CIA interrogation technique. So proud.
he said, he said a lot, dont make it true.. he might be a terrorist. depart him.
We cant "depart" him, because he is a GERMAN in GERMANY.....
ghow, you are a perfect example of what Inho22459 was speaking about.
Congratulation and thank you for illustrating his point so well.
While it would be appropriate, can you imagine what the Glenn Becks of the country will be ranting if the president apologizes for this? It'll be the top story on FNC for weeks.
Well that's a fine standard. "Yes, Obama ought to do the right thing, but then Glenn Beck might be very upset." Now that's what I call leadership!
New Movie Title: Zero Dark Pay Me $78,000, Torturers.
I love how we all knew this was going on, but the administration would never openly admit to it...just like they won't admit to the existence of their drone kill lists.
There's really only one reason to create a bunch of sketchy quasi-legal detention centers in third world countries...and that's to take people there quietly and do horrible things to them out of the sight of the media and humanitarian organizations, and outside the US where everyone is (at least ostensibly) entitled to certain rights.
Sadly, it's not like the Obama administration can come out and say "Gosh, that Bush II was a bad guy...torturing all those Muslims." Because, of course, Obama is doing the same damn thing. Obama may in fact be doing more (see: drone strikes killing American citizens in Yemen without any due process).
Or as the US Govt won't accept officially that is influenced heavily and sometimes threatened by Israelis.
"Gosh, that Bush II was a bad guy...torturing all those Muslims." Because, of course, Obama is doing the same damn thing.
Do you have any proof? No, of course not. This incident happened in 2004 during the Bush/Cheney administration. In addition, EVERY ONE of the Republican candidates for President, except Huntsman, stated they were in favor of torture. You think torture is a good idea, vote Republican!
Rokid. You're not talking to a Bush apologist, nor are you talking to someone who--as a general proposition--dislikes the Obama adminstration's economic policies. That is, you're not talking to someone who has a partisan agenda. No need to get defensive.
Proof????
Here you go:
(1) Drone killing of a US citizen...and a few weeks later...drone killing of his US citizen son. All without a public hearing or any sort of due process. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Aulaqi
(2) FitMo and the other detention centers have not been shut down despite Obama's explicit campaign promise (i.e., the locations Bush created specifically to torture people outside the purview of the US Constitution and US Courts are still open and stocked with torturees).
I mean, I don't need to see video footage of actual torture taken since 2009 at GitMo or in the other foreign detention centers we (ahem) haven't shut down to know that (i) if you'll kill an American citizen and his son without a warrant or hearing or any sort of due process then (ii) you have no problem torturing a non-citizen (i.e., something short of killing that's not prohibited by our own Constitution).
So, I guess (in the absence of any official statements from the administration) you could just trust that they're somehow okay with killing US citizens, but not okay with torturing non-citizens. If you do feel that way, please reach out to me directly. I have a bridge I'm looking to sell.
One-Eyed --
Please find a source other than Wikipedia to support your "facts".
Just Me. Are we not beyond the whole "I won't believe anything you say going forward if you use the world's largest information resource rather than going through the rigamarole of searching for articles to cite."
A silly, petty objection at this late date obviously (and pathetically) intended to obfuscate your clear lack of any rebuttal.
Do you mean to imply that we didn't kill the man and his son? That's a historical fact...the Supreme Court denied Cert. on the case (filed by the ACLU). Here's a link tot he ACLU's discussion for your edification: http://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/targeted-killings
Do you mean to imply that our third world detention centers are no longer up and running. That's also a historical fact...that was widely cited as a failed Obama promise this last election cycle. Here's an ABC story on it: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/guantanamo-bay-open-promises/story?id=16698768#.UMqplamet94
What exactly have you added to the conversation other than trying to attack a source with no supporting argument in apparent ignorance of commonly reported recent history....
In the words of the principal moderating Billy Madison's debate:
According to the New Yorker, this guy simply happened to have the same NAME as their terror suspecvt and was actually. . . a car salesman.
As for the assault on the mayor. . . without knowing the details I'd not be surprised if the guy was a bit touchy after his experiences.
Rokidto--Ron Paul also spoke firmly against torture. In the same debate. . . Bachman seemed to slobber all over the idea "I will use waterboarding", Mitt the twit tried to slide over it and avoid the word torture, I don't recall the exact words the other candidates used except Paul and Huntsman, both of whom firmly used the word "torture" and said it was WRONG.
Justme, wiki is a self-regulating fact source; while there is often debate about what is said and how it is said, NOTHING gets to stay up if it's disputably false, exaggerated, or misleading. Just too many people able to "correct" it. I mean really, if you have 10,000 to 10 million people ready to jump on something that can be disputed, what's posted on wiki tends to moderate itself. While it may not be 100% "factual" at times, it's closer than most other sources (as long as the administrators don't have their own internal biases, which is easily established about certain subjective topics - not historical events.)
Laughing.
I agree. The articles are generally heavily peer reviewed...which, in my view, is sufficient for most purposes.
Contrast Wiki to the "legitimate" sources JustMe appears to unquestioningly rely upon. Corporate owned. Subjectively editor reviewed (no peer review). Funded by big business advertising revenue or encyclopedia sales.
In order to get the same Wiki review process, I'd have to go to every major news site, open their article on the story and then combine all facts presented. I'd still be subject to (i) my own bias and (ii) the media's general pro-business, pro-institution bias. If I look at a "real" encyclopedia like Britannica, I have no clue who wrote the piece, who edited the piece and who fact checked the piece and whether a bias of fairness/audience exists in order to whitewash the piece for mass consumption.
Is Wiki flawless...No. But at least I get to see the editorial review going on at Wiki.
In the past, our government has successfully argued against hearings on rights violations on the grounds that a court case would compromise national security. Why can't government agencies plead nolo contendere in cases like that of Khaled El Masri? Unwillingness to defend your actions should not eliminate your responsibility for their consequences.
Because the European Court of Human Rights doesn't give a damn about your government arguing for national security reasons. It's a European Court handling a crime on European soil. US law is irrelevant.
They are also your security reasons there Michael . Just how the heck do you think most governments of the world get their intel ? But you do prove a point for me . The USA should let the rest of the countries fend for themselves and screw them as to what happens . I , as an American , am so tired of other BS countries that do not appreciate the fact that we have lost so many lives protecting in the past and present , that we spend trillions a year of taxpayer money in aid of all forms . We should bring every troop home and guard our own borders , bring all of our jobs back here , stop foreign ownership in business in the USA , stop sending any aid money out of the USA and keep it all here . Then sit back and laugh at how quickly the world goes completely to @!$%# . Si I say screw all of you ungrateful idiots .
@Howard: I'm 100% with you on the idea of bringing all troops home, guarding the borders and stopping there. Now, you can decide to go all out and cut yourself off completely from the rest of the world, but once you realize that your own economy falls in the ditch because no one buys American products anymore and the average American can't build any more consumer debt than he already has, you'll quickly change your mind.
As for the BS countries who don't 'appreciate' your protection... please go explain that to Iran whose democratically elected Prime Minister you overthrew in 1953, to all these South American countries whose democratically elected presidents you overthrew in the 60s and 70s, to Laos that you carpet bombed (more bomb than all of WW2 !) even though they never were at war with the US, etc...
May I suggest you stop being so f***ing arrogant and realize that your country did some MASSIVE screw ups around the world ?
Just give it awhile.soon enough everyone will forget and lose interest in it and the whole thing will be successfully swept under the rug, and in 20 years the CIA will confess and by then no one will care. selling drugs to the black community anyone?
Couldn't care less who takes these scumbags where there taken or what happens to them. Wouldn't hurt to lump them in with the ACLU as well. Take care of two problems at once.
Too bad the guy was completely innocent, eh?
But our CIA decided to violate domestic laws and international treaties and torture him anyway, just for the fun of it.
Jeff: are you one of those "conservatives" that pound the desk about "getting back to the constitution" and the "founding fathers"?
Any other undesirables that you'd like to be illegally kidnapped and sodomized by your government?
I'm sure that's exactly what you will say when they pick you up on the street after mistaking you for a terrorist, like they did with him.
Too bad the government actually responsible for these atrocities will never be held accountable since the US doesn't believe in the rule of law, much less holding its leaders accountable for their crimes.
The good guys don't torture people. But when the majority of your people think it's ok you aren't the good guys anymore.
Um, please explain to me why they are demanding for OBAMA to apologize to this person? Shouldn't it be HRH Bush II?
Duh. because thew USA is the country responsible for all this and Obama is the current president of said country, he would not be apologizing in his name but in the name of his country.
This is the new amercian way folks, stop crying in your milk and start doing something about it. Clean up congress, impeach everyone in office and start from scratch. The banks and corporates have a strangle hold on our country and they keep just steeling tax payers money like it's entitled to them.
We as Americans are all responsible for this and all other horrible atrocities.
Does any of this behavior sound like it should or would be purpotrated by the United States of America? If you answer yes to this question you need to go live in a communist country where no one has any rights.
For all of you who refer to deporting people to third world countries; America is fast becoming a third world country, so they should in fact just stay here and wait twenty years.
Does the Ends now justify the means ?
Sounds even more terrible then what happened to my mother and father and grandparents (one who died in camp) during World War II when they were forcibly taken to internment camps. Hopefully it won't take decades for this Country to apologize like it did eventually to my parents and grandma while she was still alive.
The US is a rogue nation. We should pay this man substantial reparations for the harm done.
oh bull
@Samuel Long, OK idiot first class, you pay the terrorist for any harm that may have been done. In fact, pucker up and kiss his a$$, OK?
Just because he said he was tortured doesn't mean he was. Then again, it doesn't mean he wasn't either. I wasn't there, neither were you, so who really knows. Not the people who posted before this post. Never heard so much drivel about our country.
SalllyAnn - maybe nobody knows "for sure", but it was determined to be true in a court of law. Did you determine that he was a terrorist based on the fact that his name sounds "terroristy"?
With a mugshot like that what do you expect?
$78,000 from Macedonia; talk about adding insult to injury with this trivial amount.
$7.8 billion from USA; talk about adding insult to injury with this trivial amount.
$7.8 billion + interest at 10%, court costs, arrest prosecution of those responsible from those in the field plus those at the top in the USA, seizure of all assets of those responsible added to award with death penalty for those trying to hide assets, unlimited free health care and counselling; this might approach a reasoned approach to restitution.
Wow, what a rant, feels pretty good. Sad thing is it's probably about right when it comes to justice for this man if he was victimized as the story describes.
The German court should request the extradition of Bush, Cheney and Rove as a war criminals.
Now that would make sense. But we know that will never happen.
Just like the existence of God. Whether any torture done has prevented terrorist attacks is a completely unfalsifiable claim.
I think we did this to a Canadian guy too..who was grabbed in the US and renditioned to Syria, tortured and then dumped on a hillside in the Balkans, if I recall correctly.
Maher Arar. After the US illegally rendered him to Syria where he was tortured for a year, he was released to go back home to Canada. He's been proven factually innocent by a Canadian court and given reparations by Canada, but the US has refused to pay any compensation or even apologize, and still has him on the no-fly list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar
They say this guy described all the events correctly. He described the ones at the airport in black outfits. That sounds like CIA Black OPS. My question is why is this guy walking around freely and able to bring a court case against Macedonia. Something smells awful fishy here.
The United States of America does not answer to a European court.
Nor apparently does it answer to US domestic laws or the international treaties it wrote and signed.
Looks like the US is a rogue state and commits crimes against humanity with impunity. It also seems incapable of holding its leaders to account for conspiring to commit those crimes.
The tea baggers got to be upset, the German courts are blaming Bush for this. LMPO over that.
Looking at the post 911 events on the part of our government involving the "detained," it is clear that the CIA went too far in their "apprehensions!" Any male individual who was Arab, or looked Arab, was inhumanely targeted as a terrorist suspect!
There have been quite a number of reports that such men were picked up here in the United States, and sent to unknown places to be interrogated and tortured!! Some of these men who were seeking political asylum in the U.S., were deported and sent back to countries where they faced certain execution and/or horrible prison sentences!! Excellent work CIA and Homeland Security! I pray that many more stories like this come to light, exposing to the American public how brainless & off-track our government has been in this so-called "War Against Terrorism!!?"
erhtjyujky
Speaking about terrorism and violent regimes, perhaps you would like to look up the Trail of Tears, the Fort Pillow massacre, the Andersonville concentration camp, lynchings in the South, Jim Crow laws, the Elwell Otis coverup in the Phillipines, the Ponce Massacre, the empowerment of Cornelius P. Rhoads by the U.S. Navy, the Tuskeegee Syphilis Experiment, Operation Paperclip, the Zoot Suit riots, the internment of Japanese-Americans in concentration camps during WWII, the Canicatti massacre, Operation MK-ULTRA, the No Gun Ri massacre, the My Lai massacre, the Kent State shootings, Operation Condor, the Iran Contra affair, Blackwater, "Collateral Murder," Jeremy Morlock/Andrew Holmes and many other marvels of Truth, Justice and the American Way I don't have enough time to post. I know you must get a warm, fuzzy feeling when you wave your 4th of July flag and fantasize that the U.S. can do no wrong, but it "just ain't so." The U.S. government can outdo the Third Reich on a slow day when it has half a mind to. And don't go -"lalalalala, I can't hear you,"- it is what it is.