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Subscribe to RSSMost of Berlin's gaslights, those distinctive street jewels that have spread a gentle golden glow for more than a century-and-a-half, are set to be removed. NBC's Andy Eckardt reports
BERLIN — As a capital city, Berlin has endured more than its fair share of division over the years. Now new battle lines are being drawn over what some see as a fight for the city's character.
The conflict began when City Hall announced its intention to phase out the vast majority of Berlin's historic gas lamps as part of an ambitious project to make the city carbon-neutral by 2050.
With nearly 43,000 gas-powered streetlights, Berlin has more than any other city in the world. In fact, more than one in six in the city are gas.
Some date back to the 19th century; others were erected immediately after World War II as the occupying Soviet forces made restoring light to the devastated city a priority.
In recent years, guided tours have been run to picturesque areas, with sightseers attracted by the distinctive warm, yellowish glow of gas lamps.
Pollution, expense
Think Beacon Hill in Boston or San Diego's Gaslamp Quarter — but on a much larger scale — and cue the outrage.
But with annual running costs for fuel and maintenance as much as $700 for some lamp models, and carbon dioxide emissions almost ten times that of an equivalent electric light, there are now strong financial and environmental incentives to replace gas with electric alternatives.
Pete Jeary/NBC News
With nearly 43,000 gas-powered street lamps, Berlin has more than any other town or city in the world.
The city's current modernization program (link in German) will see 8,000 highway lamps, mostly dating from the early 1950s, replaced with new electric lights.
City authorities say the figures speak for themselves.
The energy used by those 8,000 gas lamps could power 100,000 electric lights. And replacing them would cut energy costs by 90 percent, reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 9,200 tons per year and save a chunk of the $1.6 million spent each year just on replacement gas mantles.
Petra Rohland, spokeswoman for Berlin's Department of Urban Development, said the current refit would be complete by end of 2016 — and would recoup the cost within nine years.
All but a few of the city's gas-powered lamps will eventually go.
"Five percent of the historic gas lights, especially the candelabra, will be kept as originals in the future," Rohland said.
'Knock down the Brandenburg Gate'
It's a future that fills some Berliners like Paul Harrison with dread.
Harrison is a member of a growing band of preservation societies who oppose the wholesale replacement of gas lights.
He challenges the environmental and financial arguments put forward by the city to justify the changes.
Futuristic highway glows in the dark, reports the weather
"If we're just talking about saving money, we could knock down the Brandenburg Gate," he said ironically. "After all, that costs a lot to keep going, to keep clean."
Harrison's group, Gaslight Culture, is calling for the dismantling to be suspended - and for talks between all interested parties.
Pete Jeary/NBC News
Annual running costs for a gas-powered lamp can be as much as $700, and CO2 emissions almost ten times that of an equivalent electric light.
"We haven't started to explore the possibilities, such as different forms of financing or even sponsorship of streets or districts," he said.
Harrison deplored what he described as “the rejection of a working system.” And the replacement LEDs would be “prohibitively expensive” and “far from convincing” as alternatives.
'A living light'
Such rejection of new technology would be a disappointment to Andre Braun, who has spent years developing LED illumination that mimics the color of gas light (in German).
For Braun, whose workshop is on the same site as the former Berlin gas plant where his father once worked, the search for the perfect replacement is nothing short of a crusade.
Glowing plastic lets you make light bulbs in any shape
The way he talks about working with gas is reminiscent of how a fisherman might talk of the sea.
"It's so very difficult to work with," Braun said. "The extremes of temperature make it a constant battle ... unlike electricity, which is a dead light, gas gives a living light. But that's tough to recreate in an LED."
"Some people think I'm crazy to spend all this time trying to replicate the look of the gas lamp," he said. "But they are beautiful; gas lights have no glare, you can look right into them."
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I can appreciate the German people's concerns about the beauty of their gas lamps.There was the same issues at one time for the candle lamps after WW1. According to articles I have read on such things. However, I think there becomes a point, where one must consider the needs of the environment, the impact we as a species are having upon it. For in the long run, this beautiful world needs our best efforts to protect it.And nostalgia must give way to practicality in the end. Just as the steam and paddle ships, trains run by coal, gave way to modern technology. I am sure there were some who argued to keeping those as well.
We must also keep in mind, inflation can affect the expected costs recouped over the nine years. In addition, I haven't gotten the length of time promised from my LED lights. Having to replace them far sooner then expected. At the high cost per each, they are really breaking my budget for the short time I get from them. Not to mention having to get up to the tall ceiling.
A few gas lamps are not going to make that much difference to the environment. A better solution would be to keep them in select spots, which it sounds like they are going to do. At least replace them with something that mimics the real thing.
All of this carbon S H I T is just that. There is more than those street lamps maybe they need to ground all air travel thru out the world. no more cruise ships no more anything except these Nutjobs that want the world to be green in the 22nd & 23rd century. W.T.F. up idiots
AND SCREW YOU IDIOTS THAT SAY NO MORE YELLING ON THE VINE
Lili Marlen
Vor der Kaserne
Vor dem großen Tor
Stand eine Laterne
Und steht sie noch davor
So woll'n wir uns da wieder seh'n
Bei der Laterne wollen wir steh'n
Wie einst Lili Marleen.
Well said Windancersong-1494878, every bit helps, I know the household LED's are not up to par, but the commercial ones are doing well, heat sinking is a big part of the failures. They are actually being used in many applications with a lot of success, I know an electrical engineer that built them for his salt water reef tank and they have been running for a few years now with no problem, unfortunately the bulbs available to the public are lacking in the heat sinks.
Paul Harrison, Rex-1306908, RAY-3990748, all members of the flat land society. I guess to them progress is a liberal curse.
43,000 gas street lamps in the city. Well getting rid of the 8,000 on the highways is a no brain-er. And most of the others can be replaced with a faux bulb even if its not perfect. I'd keep them in certain area's like Parks or open air shopping area's, anywhere you have a significant amount of foot traffic at night in a historical setting. Most city neighborhoods have a one or two streets were people go to dine or shop in the evening or older area's where pubs and clubs are located and it might be worth keeping the beauty of these lights where they will be enjoyed by enough people to make their cost worth it. But 98% of these lights should go, they'll save a lot of money and the ones that are left will look more beautiful since they are special. Just like most cities have fancy lights in certain area's and plain lights on most streets. You can be sure that just like in America most of the people who are against this are really only concerned because they like the one gas light that's in front of their house and couldn't give two chitts about any of the other 43'000.
It's just infrastructure... Since they are anywhere from 70 to 100 years old, I think they've served their purpose.
But, if they want to save the fixtures, it's possible to retrofit them for electricity. Just hook up some a temporary fixture while the old one is removed and retrofitted for bulbs. When finished, slap on some CFL or LED "Bug lights" for the yellow glow effect.
The article doesn't mention if they use radioactive Thorium mantles. If they do, the reduction in contamination to the environment from their manufacture, use and disposal would be significant. Not to mention exposure to the workers responsible for replacing mantles.
Wow Ray, glad you are the "light" of intelligent discussion. Or to put my perspective a little less sarcastically and make it abundantly clear. Your point about the amount of carbon emmission produced by air travel might have been observed as a reasonable statement by more people if you hadn't hidden it behind you coming across as an unmitigated prick.
There are two sides to the environmental debate and both perspectives need to be heard - but the angry shouting from both sides needs to be ignored.
my god....hook, line and sinker...
Tradition just for traditions sake is just plain stupid at worst and definitely counter productive at best. It's the goddamn 21st century, move on already.
You will get where you are headed a whole lot faster and with less stumbles, looking forward as opposed to looking back.
"If it was good enough for grandpa, it's good enough for me" is a dangerous, ignorant ideology. I think a lot of folks just need to pull their head out of their ass.
Wow! Are you a scrooge just this time or year or is a year long problem?
Did you out up a Christmas tree? Or maybe hang stockings, eat ham, or go to church Christmas Eve? Did your Christmas dinner have your favorite foods? Planning on celebrating New Years Eve? Dressing up? A late fancy dinner maybe?
Traditions are what define our families...our heritage. Ideas, thoughts and feelings passed down from generation to generation. These tradtions are a comfort and give us a sense of "being home".
Remembering and sharing stories about our youth also makes us appreicate what we have today. It also opens eyes and minds to the possiblities of the future.
These gas lights have a long history and I am SURE many many stories behind them.
Go back to bed Livinginthewoods...your depressing!
And Ray3990, PLEASE take your Meds, water the plants, eat a doughnut and get a good nights sleep. Berlin is Germany's Capital city and the Germans have a NATIONALISTIC Pride Which has been Exterminated in The United States; after all, America is the Great "Melting Pot" and is "politically Correct" in everything being done Here; like in california where Reverse Discrimination and Affirmative Action and Illegal Immigrants "Rights" MUST be protected AT THE COST OF ALL And National Security. Those Gaslamps Exemplify the Pride of the German People and stand out of how they rebuilt Germany after the devastation of WW2. The Departing Soviet "Occupiers" Who came to love the Germans, their Cleanliness, Their Culture, Their Customs, Their Work Ethic and the Wholesome Ethnicity of Germany Did NOT want to return to their Russian Homeland. The Berlin Streetlamps are beautiful as a Glowing Symbol of The German People's Pride and continuing Success as a World Socio/Economic Power having a Purpose and Mission in the World; as compared to Our "Great Melting Pot" Which has become The Huge CessPool. Those Beautiful Gas Streetlamps MUST be kept in Place.
Ray #1.2 is a TROLL. Don't feed the TROLL. Friggin' A$$.
This is a perfect example of how environmentalists push their agendas while contorting facts. 9100 tons of CO2 per year is miniscule. It's an environmental nonissue. It's the CO2 equivalent of the operation of a couple thousand automobiles per year. It's a drop in the bucket.
The financial considerations are also a nonissue. They are talking about a 9 year payback for a retrofit. No company or business would make a capital investment that took 9 years to pay back.
So, you have a minor environmental benefit and an economic detriment (there are better ways to spend money than on a project which takes 9 years to pay back) to weigh against an action that is detrimental to tourism, culture and the character of a city. But, they will play on your emotions and make it seem like anyone who wants to keep these lamps is somehow ridiculously clinging to the past to the detriment of the planet.
If someone wants to "save the planet", there are definitely environmental projects that would provide more cost effective benefits than this.
So, according to you, unless it is cost effective for governments/corporations to put even the smallest environmental measures in place, there is no need to try to help a planet that has given us every single thing we require to live out our whole lives, and asks nothing in return except that we use her resources responsibly. Humans must get out of our anthropocentric mindset if we are to survive. There are many other species who share this planet with us, and have no alternative but to accept the (frequently disastrous) decisions that humans make. We are responsible for their survival as well.
Interesting a people who avoid large parts of their history getting sentimental over some inefficent outdated polluting street lamps.
Vee vill Voss U zru discipline zo azz naught to uze zee gloppin schpeeeeel...Nein! Sieg Heil!
No street lights are even cheaper.....get a life.
Ban cars inside the city, then you will be carbon neutral.
No need to ban cars - just ban all combustion - no oil or gas heat, no combustion engines, no wood fires, no candles in churches, no smoking, etc. Ban all pets also, as they are an unnecessary source of carbon dioxide.
Obviously you don't know much about Berlin. It already has one of the lowest car ownership rates when compared to other major cities in the world. It has one of the most reliable and on-time public transportation systems too. You can get virtually anywhere without a car and taxes for your driver's license makes it host prohibitive for many would be car owners to maintain one.
You don't realize that banning is about taking away freedom?
Really. I assume you think that humans' emissions of carbon dioxide is necessary. In what way are humans necessary to the survival of the planet? I see us as a detriment.
some people dont get sarcasm I see? Lol.............
I want one of the lamps, when I was in Germany I visited Berlin. I thought the lights were great! If you take them out I want one!
I'm with you 2nd. I'm a great fan of gas lights and I want one as well.
When I read the story I thought the same. I'll take one.
Do you think they might just convert the beautiful gas lamps to electricity and keep them?
Actually, I'll take more than one! They are great lights.
When it's all said and done, all we'll have are pictures and videos to reminisce about the good ol' days when things looked beautiful and we had freedoms. And all this is being done in the name of "carbon neutral," Yup, the new socialism.
And to think, it wasn't that long ago when Reagan was President and the buzz word was FREEDOM! Communism and socialism were on the run. Who'd a think that a mere 25 years later freedom is on the run and tyranny is rearing it's ugly head. And what are the socialist thugs espousing? Why it's environmentalism. More specifically, global warming, climate change, carbons, etc.
Well, it was said decades ago that the communists were infiltrating our schools and that was the way they were going to win the war. Not from without, but from within. And, it looks like they are succeeding, to the detriment of everyone.
Good idea - sell the surplus gas lamps to collectors. Set the price at the cost of the replacement LED lamp (including labor for de-installation/installation.) This makes the cost of changeover zero.
I'll take one also. But, I would most likely convert it to electric also. I love the design of the lamp and I have just the place for it.
They could just retrofit the lamps with the LED's, Andre Braun already has solved the aesthetics's issue and the LED's are far more efficient and better for the environment, all these small changes add up. But the flat land society keeps hiding their heads in the sand.
I want a few too, but only if they can burn whale oil. JK. Leave enough of them to maintain the charm they lend to the city. Make up for the pollution in another way.
Antistupidity?
Clearly you know nothing about lumen equivalents and the effect of different color spectrum on the usefulness of light. The failure of this makes many "equilivlents" less than satisfactory.
BTW. LED's still have issues with heat build-up that still have not been fully resolved. This heat issue is what is causing people to fail to get but a fraction of the projected life out of the fixture. Also, to band enough LED's together to effectively eliminate some incandescents so far has not proven as cost effective as in theory. The higher lumen LED's often use as much energy as the CFL's they are to replace.
Almost all other forms of generated light lack the depth of the color spectrum or the emotional warmth feeling as given by gas lights.
DB has his head up his anus again, back ward thinking flat lander. Cant waste my time with ignorant backward thinking fools who cant handle development and then say what I already said to argue with me. Yes heat is an issue causing failure in the replacement bulbs generally available to the public, the commercial applications with enough heat sinks are doing just fine, I have been using LED's in certain applications in my aquariums for about 8 years now, how would I know anything about them. Oh and DB don't bother to respond. I cant be bothered with fools that can't think progressively, I know to you that is a dirty word, like progress is a bad thing. Oh and I did research into the nitrogen fertilizers and unless they are used very cautiously they are very bad for the environment but if you want to poison yourself go right ahead. Consider yourself IGNORED, I don't have time for fools, and next time you want to fly somewhere since you are so against progress, I think the French might have a balloon circa 1870 for you to travel in.
What we need is laws that ban the ugly. That includes the led's. They're expensive, they break and they are ugly. Antistupidy wouldn't object to that since it is the government's business to dictate to people. Make's no difference why they tell people what they can and can't do, libs will just roll over and do it. Well, at least they should because they make fun of those who disagree with the government mandates.
Actually, I think they should require people to register under one of two classifications. The first classification is "government" knows best. These people would be required to vote for liberal candidates and follow all the rules that government imposes on them. The other classification is "I'm smart enough to decide for myself." These people would be required to vote for conservative candidates and would be exempt from the government regulations. Well, ok, in the interest of fairness, and to make sure that others aren't left out, there is the third group called "I do what my preacher tells me too so that I know I'm following God's law." Those people would be required to vote for the candidate of their faith and follow the law as set forth by their preacher.
There, I think should cover it. Yup, everyone gets what they want and we can all hold hands and sing kumbaya!
witchrunner
The lights would be community property, owned by all and not any individual or group, who would you propose controls them, 1 group, or the government being the elected representatives of the majority of the people. They are not private property they are infrastructure and it is the governments job to control and maintain infrastructure which is community property. The governments job is to make the best decision for the community, be it financial, environmental, aesthetic or any combination thereof. If you disagree with the decisions you have the right to vote them out in the next election, providing the majority of the populace agrees with you. I f they don't agree with you then you will not win the election and things will continue to irritate you, its called democracy, not socialism or communism or conservatism or liberalism or dictator-ism but DEMOCRACY. I know you want a democratic dictatorship where everyone gets to vote but only your vote counts, only your desires are adhered to and others are ignored regardless of the desires of the majority.
2ndamendment: I think they will be retrofitted, not replaced.
I thought natural gas was the clean alternative.You libby green leaf licker progressive want to change everything. Hey! That could be the new jobs for the millenniums(those are the self titled LGBT occupy wall street types)we could hook a bicycle or a tread mill by the light and they could pedal (in their tight little jeans)all night to power the lights.See I'm brilliant.no wonder I'm a self made entrepreneur!
Just not today, correct?
I love ME too.
Yea, We'll be Carbon Neutral When ITs ALL GONE!
The big problem is overpopulation. We our species not breeding itself into extinction, gas lights would be the least of our worries.
Hey people - quit breeding and watch our environmental (and scores of other problems) fade away.
(No I don't have children if you were wondering. Would adopt in any case.)
You're a nut-job... overpopulation... phu-lease.. The entire worlds population could all fit in the northern part of fla.. The entire world.. your not ted turner or the creator of the Ga guide-stones by chance are you..?
I for one have no reason to return to Germany.. It would no longer be Germany without those lights.. sorry.. seems the governments do have plenty of money.. thought they was broke, but always seem to go further in debt.. with miracles..
With an attitude like that, why would you want to adopt? That would only encourage more people who can't afford to raise kids to pop out some more. We'll never reach your goal of human extinction that way.
A shame to lose them, they are indeed beautiful.
Retrofit the gas lamps to electric, or replace them and sell the old ones for decoration purposes. problem solved.
They could convert the lamps to electricity.
Do any of you actually read the articles or comprehend them? Convert to electricty? That's what they're doing you morons. Do you understand what a gas light actually is? It's a FLAME.
I weep for our country.
First off, the city was originally talking about replacing the lamp pole themselves with standard electric light poles, like the ones you see on city streets here in the US.
Even if they keep the original poles, but put in electric bulbs, there is still the issue that electric bulbs do not produce the same kind of light as gas lights. While I feel that is a minor issue, the fact remains that electric bulbs just do not have the same visual appeal, casting harsher shadows and changing the "look" of the neighborhoods at night.
There is beauty here that will never replaced. Visitors come from all over the world for this sort of beauty please world do not strip these things from the world
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!!!!!! Keep the light fixtures intact but turn off the gas until a time when saner minds prevail. The tourist money that will be lost will be more than the cost of gas. Don't retrofit, put up some electric or solar lamps to save money and curb "pollution" (it's only carbon) until the city finds a way to relight the gorgeous gas lamps. A town in New Jersey almost got rid of their gas lamps twenty years ago and would have lost lots of property value if they had. They kept the lamps and the character of the town and the high property values. Some things need to be kept for their beauty alone. Old is not necessarily obsolete.
There's no more pollution than the gas stove in your kitchen.
So we keep the gas lights. Are we going to go back to horse drawn carriages as the main source of transportation next? Sorry Glass light people, welcome to the 21st century. If it saves money and more eco friendly its probabaly a good thing.
Yep. Welcome to the 21st Century, where street lights can't be lit by natural gas. Instead, they must be lit by electricity that is produced by burning Ruhr coal.
Denver, don't ruin the Utopian world of the tree huggers. They're too busy playing with their pet Unicorns to get that concept.
A always leads to B, no matter how ridiculously absurd B is compared to A. Isn't preserving historical charm in part of a city just the biggest waste.
The should obviously leave some of them using gas in some areas as they are of historical importance, but to have as many as they do is wasteful and expensive.
someone powerful in berlin has a friend who sells electric streetlights i'm sure. it's all about $. liberals just like to twist things a little bit and say the electric lights will be "eco-friendly". where do you think the electricity comes from....a squirrel running in a circular cage? it comes from coal fired power plants. maybe al gore can fly his jet a little less often and sell off a few carbon credits to berlin to save their gas lamps.
Must be so. Germany has a strong Pugg party. Those are Pugg tactics.
When I was stationed in Regenburg a drunk driver took one out across the street form the barracks. That lit up the streets until it was turned off.
Reasons given are a mask. The real intent is to reline the streets with the "Intel, listen, look system" now being installed in major U.S. cities. It is quite simply the growth and validation of Govt surveillance. Facial recognition, infra red the whole works. While you walk and grumble about the latest Govt stupidity they listen. If you are a politician when you leave the restaurant with your mistress to your car THEY film it.
If the Germans were smart they would leave the gas lights and as the world converts Berlin will become the capitol of Spy activity to compensate. The Germans could then become the "Spy Masters" of the world.
Welcome to the wonderful world of technology.
But there's already a lot going on that doesn't require external surveillance at all- like the cameras and microphones now incorporated into some of the smart tv's people are now bringing into their living rooms and bedrooms.
If you own a cell phone, same deal, but even better- because it then becomes possible to not only see and hear you, but to precisely determine your position.
Why would your hypothetical "they " bother with something so expensive, inflexible and static as a large scale physical surveillance system- when most people already buy that for them?
Progress..... Ugh
Natural gas lamps have a major downside: if they fail to completely burn the gas for any reason, carbon monoxide is created- something that might shorten your lifespan appreciably if you live in the vicinity.
If a light emitting diode fails, it stops working- and you replace it.
It's also possible to make LED lamps which create light that is virtually indistinguishable from that of a gas lamp.
The city might also be able to reduce taxes or fund other projects if the energy costs for lighting were to fall to 10% or so of what they're paying now.
After all, $700.00 per lamp per year is a lot of money to burn for the sake of someone's nostalgia.
Hey, I miss my old filament C9 lamps too- but all my Christmas lights are LED based these days.
The other side of that coin is the fact that my electric bill no longer runs three times my baseline for the holidays.
I also don't have to spend a lot of time on a ladder replacing bulbs that failed in storage or from the vibration of hanging them- so the upside vastly outweighs the downside.
Who said you need any lights? Ban the cars and you don't need lights. The only thing you can bump into are other people. Heck without cars you don't need to worry about streets either. Just make sidewalks. People used to get goods to stores with pushcarts. Besides it's a good cardio workout.
The lights are so beautiful. When Berlin was under Soviet rein she was forced to live in the dark. Although Soviet's may have helped in lighting the place up.....but it was mainly to catch those climbing over the wall. These lights are a reminder of her new light 1990 when Germany West/East became one country again and the lights were for all peoples to see a new shinning hope. Keep them and if you have to dim a few take those that are not well seen. I love Germany & her people and to take away part of her relfection of hope would be a crime.
History replaced due to supposed "environmental concerns". There is no carbon neutral country in the worls, and most likely never will be. Sad to see Germany knuckle under to the "tree huggers".
This is about money, not history.
Gas lamps may be pretty, but they're also dangerous.
I know it's great fun to scream bloody murder about "tree huggers" when reacting to anything smacking of environmentalism, but the actual agenda here is reducing city operating expenses and simultaneously removing a hazard to public health.
In this case, the touted goal of becoming "carbon neutral" is just another political leverage point; if it wasn't also cheaper, this project wouldn't have a chance in hell of making it past Berlin's city hall.
Gas stoves, water heaters, and furnaces all over the world are just as dangerous. I don't hear anybody clamoring to get rid of them. And there is no way I will "invest" in LED lighting. We were promised that CFL bulbs would last 10 times as long as incandescents so even though they cost more, we'd save money. Yeah, right. Most of my CFLs last no longer than my incandescent bulbs. They also take a few seconds to reach their full brightness in cold weather. And I haven't noticed any difference at all in my electric bill. As for disposing of the used CFLs, they shouldn't be thrown in the trash, we're told, because they contain mercury. But so far no one has been able to tell me how to properly dispose of them, so into the landfill they go. I'll let the Greens deal with that problem when the mercury starts contaminating our soil and water supply.
Switch them to bio-gas.
I was in Berlin a few years ago and it was approximately 100% muslim. Everyone had their scary black ghost garb on, and the women had their gorgeous faces covered. So, in short, who cares?
You THINK you were in Berlin, but it was just the booze. Sure there are muslims there, like every other major city in Europe. What a stupid comment! You must really be afraid of them.
Still, I'm glad you're so full of hate and fear of things you know nothing about... you're in for a miserable life, and that's cool. Better you than me ;-)
Jeff - my mother is from Berlin and I have been there several times. You must not have opened your eyes or seen much (which would explain "scary black ghost gard". I can assure you, besides spreading a message of hate, you sound unintelligent. Berlin is diversified - culture, food, people...but it is full of life, exciting cuisine and some of the best looking people I've seen. Like any very large city it has different neighborhoods and districts. By the old airport, there is a large Turkish population - but while many may be Muslim, that neighborhood is quite diversified and all the people are quite dynamic, energetic, friendly and the food is the BEST!
I might suggest you go lock yourself in a bunker underground for the remainder of your life on earth, it sounds like you might be happier living that way.