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Subscribe to RSSAccording to military sources and witnesses, more than 100 people, including rebels and government soldiers, were killed during an air assault by French forces. Msnbc's Thomas Roberts reports.
News analysis
Updated at 7:24 a.m. ET: Often the butt of jokes about its modern military prowess and once characterized as a nation of "surrender monkeys," France's decision to put boots on the ground in Mali to battle Islamist insurgents will surprise some.
In what threatens to be a lengthy and dangerous campaign, Friday's sudden military action marked an urgent escalation in the regional conflict.
Faced with the prospect of Mali falling into the hands of jihadists — including some who boast links to al-Qaida — French Mirage and Rafale jets spent the weekend bombarding rebel strongholds while 550 of the country's troops battled militants.
France was warned Monday it had "opened the gates of hell" by intervening in Mali. Paris had "fallen into a trap which is much more dangerous than Iraq, Afghanistan or Somalia," a spokesman for the MUJWA group of rebels told Europe 1 radio.
But some analysts suggested French President Francois Hollande, a Socialist who has been dubbed "Monsieur Caramel Pudding," had little choice but to act.
"It is difficult to see what other option France had," Paul Melly, associate fellow of the Africa program at Britain’s Chatham House think tank, told NBC News on Monday.
Having the former French colony under the control of rebels could have created a haven for al-Qaida militants, Melly said, in area much closer to Western Europe than Afghanistan or the Middle East.
Since a military coup in March last year, extremist groups including al-Qaida in the Magreb (AQIM), MUJWA and Algeria’s Ansar Dine have flourished and imposed Shariah law in some parts of the country.
France says its intervention was a response to an urgent appeal from Mali's president. That was prompted by an advance by a heavily armed rebel convoy.
Mali’s military has proved weak in tackling the rebel uprising. Units that had been trained by United States special forces almost immediately defected to the rebel side — a collapse that "astounded and embarrassed to American military commanders," according to The New York Times.
The newspaper reported that the United States has spent between $520 and $600 million in the past four years in an effort to prevent West Africa replacing Afghanistan and the Middle East as a new theater of conflict with Islamist terrorists.
The new Islamist rulers of northern Mali are not just torturing and maiming those who do not follow their views, they are systematically extinguishing one of Africa's most diverse cultures. In the third of her series of reports from Mali, Channel 4 Europe's International Editor, Lindsey Hilsum, hears how the country's proud heritage is being threatened.
France on Monday insisted it was satisfied with the progress of the campaign — named Operation Serval after a wild cat — and rejected any parallel with the protracted U.S.-led mission in Afghanistan.
Military engagement would last "a matter of weeks," Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius told reporters in Paris, saying: "Later on, we can come as back-up, but we have no intention of staying forever."
France has not asked NATO for assistance, but two British C17 cargo planes are providing support. Troops from neighboring states of Niger, Burkina Faso, Nigeria and Togo, are now expected within days.
The Obama administration is set to announce military support for French forces in Mali, U.S. officials told NBC News. This is likely to include intelligence and overhead surveillance involving unmanned drones. Officials added that it was possible that a small number of U.S. advisers could be tasked to work directly with French forces on the ground, but not in a combat role.
Reuters
Mali graphic
"We stand by our French allies and they can count on U.S. support," Air Force Maj. Robert Firman, in the office of the defense secretary, told The Associated Press.
Rebels seized the central town of Diabaly on Monday, French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian told Reuters, adding that French and Malian forces were also battling heavily-armed rebel groups in the west of the country, which he admitted was "a difficult spot."
French fighter jets identified and destroyed this numerous rebel training camps that served as bases for terrorist groups, the French defense ministry said Sunday.
Dozens of Islamist fighters were also killed when rockets struck a fuel depot and a customs house being used as their headquarters, Agence France Press (AFP) reported.
Reuters highlighted that Mali has traditionally been relatively stable until a Tuareg rebel was "hijacked by Islamists":
Two decades of peaceful elections had earned Mali a reputation as a bastion of democracy in turbulent West Africa but that image unraveled after a military coup in March left a power vacuum for MNLA Tuareg rebels to seize the desert north.
The MUJWA, an AQIM splinter group drawing on support from Arabs and other ethnic groups, wrested control of Gao - the main city of the north - from the Tuaregs in June, shocking Mali's liberal Muslim majority with amputation of hands for theft under Sharia law.
'Death trap'
Heavily armed thanks to their involvement in neighboring Libya, the Islamists are likely to deploy all possible tactics against French forces on the ground.
"They have been preparing these towns to be a death trap," Rudolph Atallah, the former director of African counterterrorism policy for the Pentagon, told the New York Times. "If an intervention force goes in there, the militants will turn it into an insurgency war."
Not all experts agree with comparisons to Afghanistan. "It isn't helpful to see it in those terms," Melly told NBC News.
In contrast to the tribal society of Afghanistan, often dismissed as ungovernable by despairing Western military commanders, Mali "has had a structured, functioning government for the past 150 years," he said.
Islamists drive out hundreds of thousands from their homes as refugee camps struggle to deal with the mass exodus. Lindsey Hilsum Channel 4 Europe reports.
"The West African form of Islam is not in tune with the hardline, Shariah law that the jihadists have been trying to impose, so there isn't popular support for it. Education is valued, for example, and women play a role in public life."
However, finding a political solution will be a long task will not be easy.
"The underlying problems that led to the rebellion in the first place still remain," Melly added.
There is also a growing humanitarian crisis. "Thousands of people are fleeing across the border into Mauritania and into camps where there is not enough provision for them,” Alessandra Giuffrida, an associate of the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London, told Al Jazeera.
The term “cheese-eating surrender monkeys” was first applied to the French on "The Simpsons" and was popularized by National Review journalist Jonah Goldberg, who claimed he had made it “an accepted term in official diplomatic channels around the globe.”
In 2003, a so-called "Google bomb" sent people searching for "French military victories"and using the "I'm feeling lucky" command to a page that asked, "Did you mean French military defeats?"
NBC News' Jim Miklaszewski and Courtney Kube and Reuters contributed to this report.
Related stories:
Obama: US forces helped France in failed Somalia rescue attempt
Full Africa coverage from NBC News
Leave a Comment:
So our Obama led military trained Malian troops who immediately deserted and joined the radical Islamists? Big surprise with Obama in the White House that we failed. Going on year five of his destruction of America.
Going skiing today? Break a leg!
The destruction of America? Remember the Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD)? After billions spent and thousands dead, we never found them (they never existed, duh!).
You do of course know the history of the Taliban also, right? Back in the 80s we called them 'freedom fighters' and Reagan spent millions arming and training them against the Soviets. In fact, Reagan called the mujahaden the 'moral equivalent of America's Founding Fathers' and invited them to the White House. (Yes, this is fact, you can easily look it up!)
skibum609-
We go in and train 'insurgents' in a lot of countries as a force multiplier for decades. This is not just Obama's little side-show. All presidents have been doing this in modern history. It is one of the U.S. Army's Special Forces forte the ability to train a ragtag band of brothers to overthrow tyrannical govervments.
The spread of Islam continues to befuddle me. Almost everyone who lives in an extreme muslim islamic country, including Saudi Arabians, are treated barbaricly. Only the few "rules setters" have any control over their own lives. Why do the people who live in these areas accept it? I know, the women don't have any choice. They are stomped on like roaches. But even the men who are not the elite few are treated badly. They become so corrupt they murder their own children for idiotic sharia laws. I do not understand why they accept this state of existance.
lol! Yes skibum, because Obama was actually one of the advisers on the ground in Mali doing the training. I bet the rest of you didn't know that on top of being the President, Barak Obama is also a veteran green beret who specializes in training indigenous forces! Hahaha, the stupidity of people in search of a political jab never ceases to amaze me.
Skibum, I've got an idea for you: Why don't you go find someone in the special forces, call him a failure to his face, and see what happens!
The small poor country of Mali is overrun by a bunch of mercenary thugs armed by Gadhaffi that have been run out of Libya and that is your response? Blame Obama and say its part of the destruction of America?
Your just a typical conservative defeatist.
550 French troops. That should do it, lol!
Ever hear of the French foreign legion? Some of the toughest fighters around. But I'm sure your another chicken hawk like the rest of the conservatives. Talk alot and let others do the fighting.
Toosano-
Sound familiar? LOL!
;-)
Whenever you estimate what it is going to take to complete an objective, alway multiply that times three and have a fourth on reserve. "Weeks???" We shall see about that.
Isn't that what the French did in so many wars, namely Vietnam??????
The high and mighty wine & cheese set is off to war.
WOW !!! Welcome to the mud, blood , and beer side of war. Better build more hospitals and stock them with everything they will need. As you will soon need them.The zip lock bags will be cumming home soon. Hope you can stand the sight of your own blood . But don't wine for us to go fight your fight for you again !!!
I don't care who goes after these extremist ... As along as we can get a break from being the world dumbest cop.
Wakehead-
Northern Mali is just as @!$%#ty as Afghanistan...Perhaps not as mountainous, but still in the middle of nowhere. Effective logistics can only be conducted by air. Take a look on google maps where the Sahara desert is and let everyone know where Mali is...In AmericanMilitarySpeak we call it JASH: Just Another @!$%# Hole.
:-)
"a matter of weeks," Laurent did you get permission from Bush to use that quote?
Actually, Toosano, in this kind of conflict 550 well trained troops with air support should do it.
Trying to get rid of Islamic extremist is very much like trying to rid a community of an insect infestation.
Unless you fumigate everywhere and get rid of the source, they will pop up and re-infest.
Frogs are on the menu this time, another never ending money draining fight.
HOTTICKET, what do you know about the French in Vietnam after WWII? Nothing I bet, but go ahead and post your inane comments anyway.
Somebefuddled person, the answer to your question is, for one the people being mistreated are usally Illiterate and two the people doing the enforcing have the guns. In America , everyone has guns, this time of terrorizing the populace, would not work.
Deja vu all over again. Remember Viet Nam? The French started a fight and in walks American advisers. The next thing we know, there are 50,000 American boots on the ground. You know the rest of the story.
Remember the old adage Obama, "If you are not aware of history, you are doomed to repeat it."
Due to high oil prices and the resulting economic mess, Hollande has done the regular politicians' job: go to war!
To my detractors, Have they conquered yet? jeesh, lmao!
Kill these nut case extremists anywhere and everywhere you find them.
The ones in Mali yes. The Republicans in Congress can just resign.
You forgot to add - and take their resources - gold & platinum.
So what's the difference between Rwanda and Mali?
You guessed it right. Rwanda didn't have gold platinum oil or anything that would require "international" intervention. So what if a million or two people died in Rwanda?
For reducing costs and losses, nuking is better.
Another war created by Looney Cloony, Obama's Afrincan Sec of State and Defense.
Wrong country looney buffalo. Go back to school, you missed your geography class.
Cloony was referring to the war in Sudan; the other side of Africa almost...www,google.com and type in George Cloony and Sudan and map and see the resultant...
Bush and the conservative neocons are the ones who create wars.
Wakehead-
[YAWN]...
Wakehead! Every single war begining in 1848 except for the great civil war and ending with the war in Afghanistan was declared by a dimocrap president and validated by a dimiocrap controlled congress.This includes the World Wars(1,2),Viet Nam and Korea.It was a republican,Nixon that stopped the VietNam war.Go figure!
So mas098, is it "dimocrap" or "dimiocrap"? In either case your childish school yard name calling is reflective of your total lack of maturity.
WW I, WW II, Korea and Vietnam: all Democratic presidents wars.
Anyone who thinks WW II's attack on Pearl Harbor was uncalled for does not know history very well. FDR was planning, and preparing for a full scale attack on Japan. 48 B-17 bombers sent to the Philippines to bomb Japan earlier in 1941, complete sanctions against Japan, organized and deployed the Flying Tigers to attack Japan, and Hawaii was a midpoint for refueling. The U.S. Pacific fleet was getting ready to deploy all of our aircraft carriers for air support for the bombing of Japan, and Japan got smart and hit us first.
That is the proof that not only was FDR getting ready to attack Japan, but was also incompetent as a commander in chief. Who won the war really........Patton, MacArthur, and Eisenhower.
Now, look at when our national deficit really began to spiral out of control !
Chirp...Chirp...Chirp..................................................
Are we talking now or 60 years ago? Do you really want to compare the merits of fighting WWII or the 2nd Iraq war? I guess I'm silly in that I believe in learning from mistakes. But being a conservative means that you don't learn anything from history or admit any mistakes.
"Often the butt of jokes about its modern military prowess and once characterized as a nation of "surrender monkeys," France's decision to put boots on the ground in Mali to battle Islamist insurgents will surprise some."
Things must be really messy in France. So Hollande has gone to war!
France, Brtain and some European nations are still imagining that they have empires!
So they jumped in Iraq, Afghanistan, waiting in Syria and Iran.
For Syria and Iran, oil rich Sunni rulers, oil companies and their lobbyists are not paying right prices to politicians.
How can one imagine barbaric and beastly Sunni Islamists' front, Syrian Observatory for Human Rights functioning from Britain?
Only British and seventh century bigoted Sunni rulers of Saudi Arabia and co can understand their types of "human rights"!
Famous last words: "Never mind lads...home by Christmas ."
Just one of hundreds of area's in the world where Muslims extremists MUST be eradicated!
These cockroaches of society are destroying the world and all civil nations must eliminate the cowards that terrorize innocent people where ever they reside.
May France prevail in this Muslim extremists conflict with an iron fist along with all the other anti-Muslim extremists forces in world fighting this Islamic scum!
"surrender monkey" no more? I knew they are stupid people in USA like everywhere else, but I wouldn't have thought that such insult (mainly used when France told at the united nations there was no WMD in Irak) could be found in mainstream media.....
How long before armed Taureg columns go marching through the Arc de Triomphe and the French government in exile is asking for U.S. help?
Sorry, Guest. France's reputation precedes it.
Its a false reputation perpetrated by the US conservatives. Sad for the media to repeat it. France actually has a reasonably powerful military.
France helped us gain our independence by putting its navy up against the strongest in the world at the time.
It's actually a great reference when taken out of context from the hit TV show, The Simpsons when Groundskeeper Willy was teaching the kids how to speak French, "Bonjoooour, you cheese-eatin surrender monkeys!"
I laughed my ass off for the remainder of that episode when it was on...LOL!
Thank you guest124216. 4corners, your comment is seriously pathetic when addressing a key US ally.
Vietnam .... Algeria .... Mali ....
Wakehead,again you are a "convenient historian">You really should read more before you make some of your comments.Oh,that's right,you are a libturd and facts are just unneccessary road blocks in your quest of propagandizing an issue!
Differences in opinion, values, beliefs, strategies, etc... are better treated with disrespect and ethnocentrism, it's easier. Hopefully America doesn't come crashing down its pedestal. What would ethnocentrics say then? it's France's fault?
But not to feel bad, I'm sure the French characterize us as Mcdonald eaters. Is that true? Not fully for sure.
Mainly, France just helped finance the war. The truth is though, that France actually has a long history of fantastic victories. Falling so quickly to Germany was merely an act of survival. Germany had just smashed Poland in a few days, and knew what would happen if they resisted. The Germans had killed all who fought, and severely destroyed Polish cities. Their tanks, and fast machine guns as well as new military tactics were virtually unstoppable for the French.
Wakehead, you are an idiot !
So Rocky Rhode... you're saying that the French's tactic of giving up and hope someone else wins was a good thing??
And what makes you think, from your line of logic, that this will be any different??
My point is that disparaging our closest allies is not a smart thing to do. But I guess that's what Republicans think is good policy these days.
Sadden, I think you are ( and many) are missing the background.
The French and Germans are cousins ethnically, at the genetic level. The French were Franks, a German tribe, before the Romans invaded Gaul.
After WW1 the French realized that they didn't want to kill Germans anymore, it didn't feel right. They all had been used to fight a pride war for the rich and famous, and many thought the Germans felt the same way, except for one difference: the Germans were humiliated at the signing of the Armistice in Compiegne France, and their toys were taken away, their economy was devastated with inflation and no credit.
You bet the French had spies and knew what the Germans were up to as far as military buildup and Hitler's plans, those are only secrets to the masses. Intel activities are as old as humanity. America knew it too Was it a mistake to take that stance? Hindsight 20/20: certainly, mostly considering the treatment that was given to the Jews and other groups. Maybe the French didn't think that sort of Evil could happen this much, this far. Maybe they thought Hitler was bluffing or that some German in their right mind would tale him out and that the problem would take care of itself. All the toys that Hitler had built out of thin air had to make money to fill the coffers, so the pillage of Europe was on. Napoleon did the same thing 140 years earlier. Who are the French to complain?
Anyhow back to your question:" French's tactic of giving up and hope someone else wins was a good thing??"
They didn't give up, they never started. The ones who started were the French Resistance. The three weeks Blitzkrieg was at best, in my opinion, the suicidal Frenchmen genes leftover from the trench war, maybe the very proud one who have no problem seeing millions of men dying for pride. Not freedom, not economic interest but pride. by 1940, the 3.5 million injured from WW1 were walking around with crutches or rolling in chairs, in their early 40's and 50's. Should the French have had the appetite to built up an equal-to-Germany military in the 1930's and fought their cousins again for a loss of 2-3 million men? (WW1 was 1.5 I believe). If you say yes, I can't reach you.
save the environment. How dare you present historical context? People come to these article so they can vent hatred for people who aren't like themselves, not to learn or understand.
There hasn't been a war or conflict that France was involved in that didn't drag the US in. We joined the Vietnam conflict to help the French. I can see where this is going.
Not true:
- WWI: It was the Germans that started the war.
- WWII: it was the Germans and the Japanese that started the war.
- The French told the US to stay out of Vietnam. The US didn't listen.
The French may not have won too many wars lately, but they did help the young American colony fight the British (and win). Without the French, we would bowing to the Queen today.
I guess you are american, so are only aware of the wars in which USA took a part... I could cite you plenty of conflicts led by France not involving USA in the 20th century, or better, in the last 30 years...
And soon thereafter the French were ready to goto war with the Americans for establishing diplomatic relations with Great Britain...
Well, at least not since 1776. I don't think we were coming to France's defense before that.
ralebol, France has won most wars lately..... Indochina and WW2 are the two only examples of french defeats.
A third people could think about would be Algeria, but it was only after the fights themselves (which were won by France) that it was decided to grant Algeria independance for societal and political reasons
ralebol, where did I use the word "started"?? I said involved... Big difference.
They are called "surrender monkeys" for a reason. Countdown until they are stuck and call for help.
guest124216, I am trying to think of a battle that the French have won in the last 2 centuries, much less a war.
tfnj: do you have any other examples than vietnam? btw vietnam is a piss-poor example since we didn't join to bail out the french, we showed up 5 years later. Hey, if you wait long enough around the world, every country will be "involved" in every war. :)
btw "involved" is a weasel word. lol. It can mean anything...or nothing.
and can you tell us when the US invaded algeria? the ivory coast? lol again. Those are two military actions by france that I don't recall the US being called into for help.
BTW, the French didn't offer to help the American Colonists until AFTER we started winning battles. It also took the diplomacy of Benjamin Franklin to persuade the French to back us; essentially the French were not going to back the American Colonists until it was a sure thing.
@4corners:
check those battles:
WW1: First and second battle of the Marne, Verdun
WW2: Bir Hakeim, Monte Casino
Korean war: battle of Wonju, battle of twin tunnels, Chongwon
Vietnam: Parfume River Coast
Algeria: Battle of Algiers
Zaire: Kolwezi
@ralebol, if the Frenchies told the US to stay out of Vietnam, why then did they want two divisions of our troops, to be under their command, to help them fight the Viets? And thank goodness Ike said NO, and ended up sending a few advisers over there.
And Kennedy was going to pull the advisors, but the MIC got him, and LBJ went along and created the great hoax of our navy ship getting attacked.
So if you are going to spout history, try and get it correct, not the pukebags way of history like they think it should be.
@InspiredByHumanity
Lots of weapons and gunpowder were sent by enlightened French people like beaumarchais (look him up) long before France was officially involved in the American revolution.
The French left Vietnam in 1954.
The US troops arrived there in 1965, 11 years later.
No argument, Leopold-
But that didn't mean the French Government did it. It's people did.
Also, in September 1950, U.S. President Harry Truman sent the Military Assistance Advisory Group to Vietnam to assist the French in the First IndoChina War. POTUS Truman claimed they were not sent as combat troops, but to 'supervise' the millions of dollars of U.S. Military equipment to support the French.
In February 1955, it was agreed that all U.S. Aid would be funneled directly to South Vietnam and that all major military responsibilties would be transferred from the French to the MAAG under the command of Lt General (3-star general) John O'Daniel...At that point there were up to 1500 special forces personnel 'advising' the South Vietnamese...
See how this all starts?
:-)
Sally! The Kennedy's were or always getting ready to do the right thing.From Chippoquate to Viet Nam.That is a fairy tale about JFK pulling out advisors.He had recommitted more advisors than were originally there.Read!
We joined in the fight in Vietnam because of a stupid well refuted paranoid theory called the "Domino Principle", sort of the WMD argument of the Cold War.
Not entirely true for the United States. The war had nothing to do with us. FDR did all he could to get us into it though. He was preparing for a massive attack on Japan when they attacked us.
Just saw a report that France is upping their total force strength to about 3000 troops and the US will be staging some aerial tankers in Mali to support France...
See how this starts?
:-)
You all know that every global power has invasion plans for every country in the world? It would stupid to not have one. So this guy who keeps claiming that FDR was a warmongering evil emperor should reconsider his position. Of course FDR prepared for war with Japan...and the Japanese prepared for war with the States. They only waited so long because Admiral Yamamoto did not want to fight the United States, and he had considerable pull with the military junta that in control of the country. But after the U.S. placed its round of embargoes on Japan, both countries knew that war would come of it. If you have two competitors in a single sphere of influence, the chances of war are highly likely. And, considering how Japan was aligned with the enemies of U.S. allies in Europe, it is easy to see how tensions were tight. So yes, FDR prepared for war, because he knew it was coming, and he did not want to lose. That's the thing about a good leader-he knows when war is inevitable and when it is avoidable.
As for France...were those opening comments really necessary? I know the Brits and Americans love our French jokes, but in a professional article, those comments are completely and totally unnecessary. Let's not mention that the author's name, Alastair, is French in origin. But come on now...I cannot imagine a single country in the world that would NOT have fallen to Nazi Germany if it shared borders with it. And Vietnam...look, people, Americans had covert operations in Vietnam beginning with Eisenhower. Kennedy had no intentions of pulling them out. Johnson obviously didn't either. And Nixon did so reluctantly. And we all know why-as soon as the Americans left, the poorly managed South Vietnamese government fell. There was just too much going on that the Americans and French were not prepared to handle. Guerrilla warfare in unfamiliar jungles was only part of it. Vietnam's neighbors were unstable, the South Vietnamese government was unpopular, and Soviet backing made it only more difficult to secure the country. The Vietnamese even had trouble controlling Vietnam, so it's easy to see why France and the U.S. did. All in all, the country has the third most powerful military in the world after the U.S. and Russia, and was the principle reason the Entente won WWI. Not to say that the U.S. hasn't helped in return, but our actions in WWII (where the French still contributing immensely after being conquered) are fair repayment for its help in supplying and fighting alongside the States in the Revolution. And yes, France did not commit troops until after Saratoga (would YOU throw your military at a cause that hasn't proven it could win?), but the States got all of its military grade weaponry from France even before the battle. And the aid of France's navy was paramount, not to mention the fact that U.S. privateers berthed in French ports. Want to know why the U.S. won the Battle of Yorktown, and humiliated Lord Cornwallis into surrender? That's right. The French.
Our tradition of making fun of the French comes from the British, who the French make fun of for being pansies about their tea time. It's just a rivalry they have, it's not the truth. Study your history a little, and you'll find that the French have had a history of success in war.
I don't understand why the writer started out with a tip of the hat to the most moronic of readers (the French haters.) It forced me to abandon the rest of the article.
Mike CHristain- the domino theory was true- just in reverse. As soon as the U.S. left South East Asia North Vietnam fought a war with CHina!!!! A litttle known fact that many prefer to ignore.
Obama did not let or prevent anyone from anything. Obama did establish that we are no longer the world's policeman so France assumed in the lead in the Mali thing. I find that very welcome.
I don't recall ANY American that didn't want to see blood after 9-11. When Bush declared that no country would ever be allowed to hide radical Islamic fundamentalists no one disagreed with him.
The problem and ultimately the downfall of this country will include:
Except for the military member and their families, NO ONE made any significant sacrifices for the war efforts that we engaged in after 9-11. I don't recall seeing any ration cards being issued, any cotton, aluminum, copper, sugar rationing happening to serve the war effort. We have NOT served our country yet we demand our country pay us back in spades. Because of that, there will be a new world leader because we allowed it to happen based on the ineptitude of the people of this country.
In the end, unless something changes soon, the United States will be the biggest joke on the planet.
No one is going to conquer this country because no one will care about it.
Inspired, America is still the best country in the world. I know right?
America's strength is its social structure and drive. The drive is somewhat locked though.
Everybody is paying for 9/11 at the economic level. If we had invested our money and focus in something else than war, we probably would not have drifted so far away from sound economics.
save the environment-
I agree with you. I would have opted for a tax to pay for the war that gets voted on in 3-year increments to continue the war or wrap it up. Set finite goals and objectives and that way we have a definitive finite strategy to get out of the war rather than get sucked in deeper. I would have also made the people feel it more be making them sacrifice more up front. We are paying for it NOW with interest. We should have been paying for it as we went.
Just my 2 cents...Cheers!
Yeah, Bush\Cheney reallly screwed things to helll with his credit card war\adventure.
Isn't that what I just said previously?
Well said.
Other than trying to get some readers by insulting the French, exactly what is the purpose of refering to the French as 'surrender-monkeys' in this article?
This is a shamefully written article, pretending that France, being overwhelmed by the full might of Hitler's onslaught is somehow cowardly, while we Americans sitting on the sidelines, not even entering the war for another year and a half, and at best harrassed by U-boats were somehow so much more brave...
@Peter, maybe it because of the way the French threw NATO headquarters and any and all troops with NATO out of France. Then everytime we requested the UN to do something, France was against us. Ever stop to think people do remember things like that.
It's also included in history books if a person cares to read about it, instead of just spouting drivel. And yes, in the past, France was cowardly. And we have paid France back for helping us form our country. But France has never paid back it's WW2 debt to us.
And how much is France paid to maintain the cemetaries of American GI's who gave their all to free France from the Nazi's? People also remember things like that.
France threw NATO out due to having been back-stabbed by the US during the Suez crisis. After that event, the French got to understand that NATO didn't serve their interests and developed their own nukes to be independent from either block (capitalist or socialist)
US cemetaries in France are administered by a US government agency. They are considered a part of the United States, much like an embassy is. France isn't paid for that.
Peter E. You know very little about history and especially 20th century history.Try reading a little more before you embarrass yourself again by making such assinine comments!
Maso098, you just embarassed yourself, since the right wing is always telling us the the USA is based on Judeo-Christian values, and they are more than 2000 years old.
Maso98, what part of Peter's post is inaccurate?? Please, enlighten me.
I want to know what's wrong with Peter's post too. If someone could let me know, that'd be great.
Only the obama haters could take the situation of another country taking the lead to fight islamic militant extremists..and try to whine and complain about it. lol.
I guess obama is ruler of the world and hence responsible for everything that happens in africa and europe and...lol.
Lol I love the bit where they said US trained forces defected. So much for the "greatest military" on earth
we do have the greatest military. This proves nothing.
What would be funny is if the US-trained forces that defected defeated the French. That would speak VOLUMES about the U.S. Green Berets abilities to train a ragtag band of rebels into an effective fighting force.
Inspired, I don't really think that would be very funny. That would mean that French soldiers were killed at the hands of U.S.-trained terrorists. Not sure if you are American or not, but I am, and I would be upset if our country's training led to the death of one of our closest ally's troops.
It is easy to depersonalize a war and soldiers that are so far away, but when will we stop insulting and denigrating our ally?
Perhaps I am just being nit-picky and ill-humored, but your choice of the word "funny" rubbed me the wrong way.
Alex-
I am an American. I was referring to Losmuertos' initial comment being "LOL'd"...
No, I do not want our allies harmed in any way. But it is a fact, we do train foreign militaries around the world on an annual basis to instill espirit de corps, comradery, and in the event of necessity to leverage a small highly trained combat unit to defeat tyranny where ever that occurs. The problem arrives when we cannot change ideologies or the actions of individuals. So far, there isn't a way to effectively conduct mind-control operations except through severe indoctrination exercises. Watch the Military Channel and you will be amazed what is being accomplished.
If the Green Berets were indeed effective in training that unit and they are now fighting for the enemy, the only thing I would recommend is exact what the French are doing: Bombing them from up above. To do that, you need effective intelligence assets to collect, process, evaluate and disseminate information. Who do you think is doing that? I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count.
Bottomline, there is a reason why the Mali government asked for help: We trained the SOBs that are now attacking the government. War is nasty; it's even nastier when it is covert and you discover it on the weekend news that this has been going on for years.
There are cowards everywhere,even on threads like this thread!
Vermontguy
Greatest military? Does this include the force that took (by its own admission) on average 1,000,000 rounds to kill one VC? Or the force that (again by its own admission) discovered that during its search and destroy operations against the VC combat 90% of the time was instigated by the VC, or how about the force that had to admit (after Desert Storm) that its definition of “intercepted” meant “passed by” when reviewing the failure of the Patriot Missile System. Not to forget that this is the same military in which about 26 of its elite Navy Seals drowned in Panama because they jumped into the sea with too much equipment. That “greastest military?” Yeah I believe you lol
Losmuertos, can you provide creditable sources for your claims? It seems you're the only one in possession of this information.
MikeO76
Ever heard of Congressional reviews? 3 of the incidents I mentioned were bought up in exposed in Congressional reviews so i'm sure if you had the time to look through congressional records you'd find it (I don't right now as I have other studies to do,) the last was a mistake on my part, it turns out it was 4 Navy Seals that drowned in the US’s invasion of Grenada and it was because they had never practiced do a night drop before. So my mistake on that one, still this whole “greatest military” on earth myth that you guys swallow is so funny, because it's just not true.
Losmuertos - So who in your opinion does have the world's greatest military. I'm rather curious what your answer might be.
I don't think there is a best military in the world, all have their strengths and weaknesses, just like all have differences in equipment, doctrine, training and tactics as well as their histories which oftern go to make up so much of the rest I just mentioned.
Losmuertos, since you've no idea what you're talking about, just stop posting.
The US DOES have the greatest military in the world... best trained, best equipped, best troops... OUR problem is we always have to wear the white hat and be the good guys.
IF we faught like our advesaries do, NO ONE on the planet would apouse us... they'd all fear us. We ALWAYS play by the rule when no one else does.
Rule of Engagement are only for the good guys... and that's why we lose the wars we fight...
Sadden American 2012
LMFAO
I think it is you who needs to stop posting or at least take of those red, white and blue blinders your wearing. Best trained is a joke as time and again in Afghanistan American forces have shown themselves to be unprofessional (like shooting British newspaper reporters or abusing prisoners) best troops, again is debatable as in most of America’s wars it’s “troops” have always had to “re-learn” their trade (examples of which can be seen in their first battles of both WW1 and WW2) and best equipped is only marginally true, or did you miss the story MSNBC posted last year of the US army have wasted millions on cammo uniforms that made trues easier to detect?
Oh and always being the bad guy is such a laugh too as the US has only fought 1 war in its entire history where it showed any kind of restraint (being Vietnam) in pretty much all others since 1776 it has always been the force to escalate the conflict (well baring WW1) so maybe you should read some of your own history textbooks eh? Just avoid the trash they use in American high schools
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
If you’d care to expand on that comment. It doesn’t say anything.
If you served in the military, you would know what that means. You never go to a gunfight with a knife. You always bring more forces than you need to overwhelm your adversary.
Take up some reading and start with Sun Tzu's The Art of War and then work on Carl von Clauswitz's On War.
read em both, it's ironic that you mention Sun Tzu because he talked alot about the use of inteligence and manuver not just overwhelming the oposition by sheer firepower and man power. Whereas Clause points out that conflict always gets more extreme if left to it's self. So in all i'd say both of em actually don't encourage escalation, but actually try to limit it.
Yeah; an amazing thing this thing called the internet; I can go and pull synopsis off the web on both books too.
:-\
yeah can you get the Oxford classics eddition of On War on there? how about the Penguin eddition of The Art of War? hell I can even give you both books ISBN numbers right now if you want. (you do know what an ISBN number is don't you?) but you're right anyone can come on the internet and claim they was a solider too
I wasn't a soldier...
no you was a Patriot right? (rolls eyes)
I haven't Calusewitz's On War. But Sun Tzu and his generals noticeably addresses the importance of intelligence many times. But if you had read that, you would know that the book is conversational, so Sun Tzu did not write it, and it applies to all aspects of life, and not just war. That's the reason it's relevant...it's based on principles.
I hope I'm wrong...... but I see US involvement in Mali coming soon...... dont' like the smell of this one...
So all the talk about U.S. trained forces defecting didn't ring a bell in your head? I'll give you a clue:
U.S. Military Forces were already in that country.
So? US Military are in dozens of hot spots on the planet... US Special Forces were in Iraq and Afghanstan years before 9/11... we do that so we don't have to send our toops to fight... that's our problem, we try to make things better for nations that hate the US, then are surprised when it back fires on us...
No @!$%#- I was responding to 100% Minnesota Mexican...
Are we going to have to come to the rescue AGAIN?
100% Minn Mexican-
So all the talk about U.S. Special Forces training Mali military units and they subsequently defecting didn't ring a bell in your head? I'll clue you in:
U.S. Military Forces are already in that country...You're welcome.
I could figure that out! Yes the USA has been there but not to the level that will be required if we are to "bail out" France or any other puppet government that is unable/unwilling to deal with the rebels (terrorists/Islamist fundamentalist). I think you are correct, at first glance maybe it seems to you like I did not read the article, but if we are to avoid another Taliban safe heaven, we will be drawn in, my opinion of course.
Fair enough- and I agree with you. We should support and if necessary take lead and engage these cockroaches BEFORE they mushroom into another situation like Afghanistan. If you get them while they are budding, we just might be able to nip this 'little' skirmishes while we can...In the military we call that Special Operations/Low Intensity Conflict (SO/LIC)...
:-)
Thank you, and thank you for serving our country.
It was just a gig. No prob!
:-)
Are you a MinniMex?
How can you be a "100% Minnesota Mexican"???
Either you're an American or you're not... in which case, why are you in this Country and not your own??
I'm sure this horse has been beaten to death but...America is a nation of immigrants! Get used to it!
You, my friend, need to learn your history and quit questioning peoples' online usernames.
NBC - who is typing up this story? The tenses and grammar are TERRIBLE.
"...embarrassed to American military commanders..."
"...destroyed this numerous rebel training camps..."
"Reuters highlighted that Mali has traditionally been relatively stable until a Tuareg rebel was "hijacked by Islamists"" --- really ONE rebel was hijacked - or the REBELLION was hijacked?
I feel like I am reading a foreign language news outlet!
This is what you get today when you hire advanced degreed college graduates with degrees in poli-sci!It better to give them a job where they think they are doing something great than to kill off their parents who had to take them in after college.There is a lot of stress out there because of the job market and now because of ScaryCare where the parents are now responsible for their children health care until the kids reach 26 years of age.Hell,that could include individuals who have commited heinous crimes against their parents,gone to jail,got out and still on their parents helathcare policies!
What the heck does all that have to do with grammar? The author is just a bad writer, man.
The French are involved so that when they get tired or unable to win they will drag the United States of America into it so that we will have to clean up their mess.
Just like Vietnam
France surrendered, news at 11.
Paris falls to Mali Rebels
This line appeared on another web site
"In Washington, a U.S. official told Reuters that the Pentagon is weighing
options in Mali, including intelligence-sharing with France and logistics
support."
Here it comes.
I don't think we need you on this one. Even if we need you, I'm sure most most americans will be glad to give a hand to fight terrorism, and it would be an honor to fight alongside the US. Yes we surrendered in WW2. Yes, America came save our asses. And I respect that. But are you aware that French bashing only started in 2003 after we said no to Iraq? And that if hadn't happened, you wouldn't have all those bad things to say about us? You are just following a trend, and you believe we are all cowards, incapable of taking care of ourselves. The fact is we are still the French, a nation of stinky barbarians with a lot of blood on our hands. Do you think the guys in the trenches were cowards? Have you forgot about the French resistance? Everybody knows the US has the greatest military, but please remain humble. I live in the US and it's funny how it's only some civilians who talk trash about the French, but most US soldiers don't.
"The newspaper reported that the United States has spent between $520 and $600 million in the past four years "
Cough!! And we are supposedly trying to get our budget in order?????
And the troops we armed and trained went over to the enemy?????
$520-$600 MILLION
"M-I-L-L-I-O-N"
C'mon- it's not like we are talking about billions...Get a grip of yourself...LOL!
:-)
And how many students could be put through medical , engineering , and technical schools for 600 million. :-)
Which investment would better our country more??
Fix some of these dilapidated bridges...For starters.
500-600 million in the U.S. budget is a drop in the bucket...sad but true. If you were worried about spending, you should take a gander at the pricetags that are in the tens of billions. If it's less than a billion, it's not going to make much a difference, unfortunately enough.
Every country has young, tough, intelligent men who are up for an adventure. The US has created a great opportunity for these guys (who make the cut) and called it US Special Forces. While those guys are joining the military by thinking they "serve their country" for the better good and help others to evade slavery or dictatorships, they simply buy-in to the well polished propaganda machine in Washington or any other think tanks which are serving the big politicians.
So, all these great guys, go to farther places thinking they do good. They fight, they die, and some survive by fulfilling their duty.
What they don't know (because information is very well compartmentalized in the military and intelligence services) is that they are just tools of power. The US is not always implementing great things by using them. Many stable countries have been destabilized by destroying the existing government ... and all that with the help of these great men, who stupidly thought they would do good.
And if the US will turn into a dictatorship-style government, it will have to be again these men to take arms agains the very same government who told them the lies.
....... well, unless the government will continue to employ these guys on its very own population to contain anger, frustration or any uprising chances. This is how a dictatorship is created and kept alive.
AND the bad thing is that a dictatorship usually CANNOT be overthrown from within, since its power structures are too strong to be broken from inside. A dictatorship can only be overthrown from outside. Now, since the US is (still) the biggest military power worldwide, who the hell will help this country NOT TO BECOME A DICTATORSHIP ????
The Ottoman Empire, Italy, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Lebanon, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, and now Syria...All were overthrown from the inside. What were saying again?
Approximately 85 million Americans own approximately 300 million firearms. The U.S. Military is less than 1.5 million with another approximately 1.5 million in reserves. What were you saying again?
The people of this great nation will help prevent this country from becoming a dictatorship.
300 million firearms vs 1.5 mill soldiers and 1.5 mill in reserve? Well unless those “firearms” include Tanks, Helicopters, drones and planes my money is on the soldiers. Oh and you don’t think they’ll use em you should read about what Sherman and Sheridan did to the south for some insight.
But as for America becoming a dictatorship, well you guys seem to lack imagination
Apparently you haven't kept track as to the current events these past 13 years in the Middle East...
Apparently you have been learning the wrong lessons from events of the past 13 years in the middle east, well eaither that you you have a super hero complex
No, I just know how effective assymetric warfare is...
yeah? Only difference is you seem to be forgetting that assymetric warfare is only effective against forigne invaders because it's designed to wear down the moral of the civilian population of the people back home. Since any such conflict with the American military in the US would be a civil war, it won't work. Serioulsy have you ever heard that expression "cannot see the forest for the trees"
[YAWN]...See my previous post, Lost Morti...
PS: It's "morale", not "morals" you tool...forigne? What is that Italian? Only effective against foreign invaders? Tell that to the Syrian Army, the Libyan Army (yes, they are still dealing with it), the Iraqi Army, the South Vietnamese Army, the Algerian Army, blah, blah, blazzzzz...
The guy takes a community college course on international relations and he thinks he is a SME for the Rand Corporation...
:-/
lol and how about you? You make up some bull about being in the military and you think you know it all too?
please give it a rest eh?
Being Lebanese, I do not recall a Lebanese dictatorship, much less a dictatorship falling. If anything, the Lebanese government is criticized for being too weak.
Looking at Africa, Mali is right under the countries that had Arab Spring uprisings. This is probably a strategic conquest for Al Qaida since from there they can make deals with new governments, or launch attacks at those that won't cooperate.
This is the real reason for the invasion, and the US will soon be involved.
Research what a Caliphate is...
I see, and yes that is precisely their goal. They are taking advantage of weak African countries and establish their bases, and spread their law. They have already invoked Sharia law in parts of Mali.
EXACTLY.
Taking advantage of weak nations to spread their law? Hmm I wonder which United States they learnt that from?
Its all a game of chess Losmuesrtos, you know that. Or maybe a game of Risk.. Either way, I'm not knocking their strategy, simply pointing it out.
TFNJ
A game? See I don’t think it’s either for them, hell I bet these Islamic fundamentalists view their expansion as their version of manifest destiny and if I recall Americans took the creation of their "empire of liberty" very seriously back then
I want to know why Losmuertos hates the US so badly...
I want to know why you think I hate the US? Just because I criticise doesn’t mean I hate? You guys are so sensitive
No, Losmuertos, you have a case of the @!$%#s against the United States.
You are willing to forego all the good deeds the United States has accomplished in its relatively short life span and are looking at the here and now to take a giant @!$%# on this country. You forget that the actions of this country are based on the 500 or so elected officials this country has entrusted them with. We don't always agree with what direction this country is heading but by and large this country has done a LOT to preserve life and liberty for everyone. Before we ever engage in conflict we are always willing to reach out and extend an olive branch and will always opt for peace and security over war and chaos.
More than anything else, you also have a case of the @!$%#s for just about everyone that is on this thread too.
Just an observation. When you want to stop lying to yourself, go ahead and fess up and let everyone know why it is that you hate the U.S.
InspiredByHumanity
And it’s an observation that you guys are so sensitive, you think I “hate American’s” just because I’m criticising the American military and America’s foreign policy and history. Come on Americans feel free to criticise the policies and histories of other nations all the time, so I guess you guys “have a case of the @!$%#s” against every other nation on earth eh?
Oh and as for the whole good deeds things, can you be a bit more specific? After all whilst you may think your liberation of Cuba from Spanish tyranny in the 1900s was a good deed I’m pretty sure the Cubans didn’t like how you then went on to dominate their economy and politics for the next 50 years and turn them into a colony in all but name. Of course I’m guessing you don’t know about that huh?
So you are going to tell me that Cuba is better off NOW than it was prior to their revolution? When they were a 'colony' as you call it, Cuba was essentially the Caribbean Riviera; resorts, casinos, AMERICAN dollars infusing the economy. Then the revolution came, Fidel embraced Communism and that country's economy went to @!$%#. Amazing how the 2013 model cars in Cuba look remarkably like their 1950s cars and that is IF the government will allow you to drive a car...What was once old is new again I guess. When Cuba shut its doors on the American dollar THAT was the biggest joke of the Western Hemisphere.
I will give you another good deed by the United States: The Marshall Plan. It gave Europe another chance at getting out the stone age and expedited getting each country's economy back on track. Without that plan Europe would have been still using horse and buggy to this day.
But let's go back a couple of years before that: We beat back fascism and tyranny on two fronts in Europe and Asia during WWII.
After WWII we assisted many countries by providing USAID to struggling countries and fed them, gave them a lines of credit to purchase foods and help feed their starving populations.
Some might disagree, but the U.S. Peace Corps. They have gone around the world teaching small villages benchmarked ideas on how to grow their crops more efficiently to assist and help feed their indigenous populations...They taught them also different ideologies and ways of thinking to spur independent thought...
Here are two commercial successes (believe it or not): McDonalds and CocaCola. Tell me where you can't find one of those two products on this planet. Probably not the greatest, but the @!$%# sells and people ARE buying it WORLDWIDE. A close third would be Starbucks...
I don't think I have to bother with the technological advances that have helped this planet; there are too many to list here...
“So you are going to tell me that Cuba is better off NOW than it was prior to their revolution? When they were a 'colony' as you call it, Cuba was essentially the Caribbean Riviera; resorts, casinos, AMERICAN dollars infusing the economy.”
Lol you do realise that by using that argument you are effectively justifying the European empires right? After all they did the same thing, they improved the economies and introduced new political ideas in the regions they controlled and all it cost the natives was the complete loss of control of their economies and political structure. But hey way to admit America is just as imperialistic as the rest of Europe, kind of makes that “freedom” stuff you guys like to shout out a bit hollow though.
Oh and the Marshal plan wasn’t about doing a good deed (seriously have you absorbed that much propaganda) it was to solidify American control of NATO, make sure Europeans didn’t default on their WW2 debts and provide the economic conditions that make Communism un attractive, in short it was America learning some lessons from the pre-war world.
Oh and as for the whole fighting on two fronts thing, big deal, Britain fought on two fronts too during WW2 (as they were fighting the Germans and the Japanese too) Britain and American were equal partners in the war in Europe from American entry all the way up till after D-day. Oh and let’s not forget with the war as a whole what the what the Western Allies, had to face in the West was nothing more than a side show compared to the real fight in Europe that was between the Germans and Russians. So again big deal.
Finally you do realise that a hell of a lot of American technology hasn’t been made in a vacuum right, a lot of American technology has come about by cooperation with other European nations. Take for example the M1A1 tank, the gun on it is German, the armour came from Britain and I believe the engine even came from another country too.
Ps
If you want to count Coca-Cola and McDonalds as evidence of American goodness you really may want to re-evaluate what you think good is after all you are aware that McDonalds is catching flak for being mostly responsible for obesity in the US as well as other countries right?
[YAWN]...
You will always have a tit-for-tat on anything I spout, but you still have a case of the @!$%#s, Losmuertos...The argument justifying the European empires can be classified as, "SO?" I have no idea where you went with that.
Instead, just stop lying to yourself and tell the truth, we all know it's you, Lance; you already confessed to the doping scandal, now just confess that you have a case of the @!$%#s and be done with you...
TRANSLATION: You bore me with your @!$%#ed up perception of the world.
hey the feelings mutual there, i'm getting bored with your typical flag waving bull@!$%#
It always amazes me how quickly Americans forget their history; but then, I look at our schools and drug-addled teenagers and I'm not amazed anymore. If it weren't for the French Navy we'd all be celebrating Cornwallis Day and the 2nd Amendment would be science fiction. Yet, anytime France is mentioned American dullards howl about "cowards".... "Surrender Monkeys"?? How insulting....DeGrasse should have turned his fleet around that day...
bashir...France did not get that reputation from their actions during the American Revolution. They got it (mostly) from their INACTION in the onset of WWII. That said, France was paid back in spades when the Allied forces booted the Nazis out of France and, had that not succeeded, there would still be a swastika flying above the Arch de Triumph.
“there would still be a swastika flying above the Arch de Triumph.”
More likely a Hammer and Sickle, seriously don’t you guys know anything about the war with Germany?
Losmuertos chimes in again... and again says nothing of importance...
Stop posting... we know you're here...
Sadden American 2012
Nothing of importance? I’m sorry is that because I’m not towing the “America is the shining light of democracy and beacon of hope for the world” line?
Ps I notice you didn't try to say how I was wrong
No Losmuertos, it would have been a swastika. Hitler was working on V2's for London, with nuclear payloads, and then he would have nuked Stalin and probably would have spared a few for New York. We'd all be saying Heil.
save the environment
You’re using the German nuke theory? Please do you know how far behind the Americans the German nuke program was by 1945? Hell did you know that in 1941 Hitler suspended all technological research in Germany for one year, and even then Germany wasn’t working on nuclear weapons. Do you know that the only way Hitler could have got nukes into V2s was if the war had lasted till at least 1950, which it wasn’t going to as the Soviets were bleeding his armies white on the eastern front.
Will we ever know and should we have taken a chance and waited?
I am now quite interested in the issue. Would you have any good links?
The French finally grew courage to fight spread of radical islam in Mali. They should do the same as well in their own country.
Yes, and they have started: the hijab can come off along with the suicide vests.
Screw it, just drop a couple of nukes on each Arab country, and tell the suvivors to clean up their act and join the 21st Century. Just because they are 500 years behind us is no excuse. Most of them can't read or write, and that should tell everyone you can't reason with the fruit cakes.
THAT is the most asinine, and utterly stupid comment I have read all day. You, ma'am, are absurdly wrong, and totally out of line.
By the way, SallyAnn, Mali is in Africa.