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Ahmed Youssef / EPA
Eighteen days of popular protest culminated in the downfall of Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak on Feb. 11, 2011.
CAIRO, Egypt -- Maha remembers going to Tahrir Square on Jan. 25, 2011. The 27-year-old office worker only wanted to look around the Cairo intersection filled with thousands of protesters. But seeing Egypt's revolution unfold before her, she left to get friends and quickly returned. Without planning to, Maha became one of the highly visible gay men and women who took to the streets shouting for change.
"We don't get freedom anywhere. No voice, nothing," said Maha, who declined to give her surname "So, the first chance at revolution, we fought."
Nearly two years after the ouster of former leader Hosni Mubarak, Maha sits smoking a shisha with her friend Noor at a back-street cafe in downtown Cairo. Together, the women have made this location a "safe place" for gays, somewhere they can come and be themselves.
Unlike in other major cities around the world, there is no flag or signage to indicate this is a "gay" cafe. People know about it through word-of-mouth and the online forum, "Bedayaa." They talk about the time since the revolution with a weariness that contrasts with the excitement they initially felt.
Many of Egypt's gays and lesbians thought sexual freedom was on the horizon. "There was a moment of hope but the last few years has killed it," Maha says, adding: "Nothing much has changed, it is very hard." She is interrupted by Noor: "I think it is getting worse," she says.
The women remember sitting with gay male friends at another cafe three months after the revolution, when locals complained about it and called nearby military police, who then found make-up in the bag of one of the boys. They were all taken away for questioning for "making a mess" in the area.
Egypt has no specific laws banning homosexuality although there are plenty of ways to charge someone suspected of engaging in homosexual acts. Police will often charge gay people with "debauchery" or breaking the country's law of public morals. The election of an Islamist president in Egypt, and the passing last month of a new constitution, has also increased fears among the country's gay men and women that anti-gay legislation could soon be introduced. "We think in two or three months they will put a law to discriminate," Maha says.
Many others fear a government crackdown is only a matter of time. The most notorious pre-revolution attack on gay men took place in 2001, when Cairo police raided a Nile boat, arresting dozens of gay men. Along with others taken from the streets, they became known as the "Cairo 52." But now, the Muslim Brotherhood is not just a power to be appeased - it is the dominant power in Egypt's new government.
The natural instinct for most gay Egyptians is to try not to draw attention to themselves but taking part in the revolution has brought greater visibility -- at a cost. Alongside other minorities the gay community has been criticized for its role in the uprising.
Adel Ramadan, a legal officer at the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights, describes the derogatory language used to attack the groups that took to the streets. "After the fall of Mubarak, the criticism of those groups has always contained a sexual element. Whether it's the women who are participating are called prostitutes or 'loose' women, or men are called homosexuals."
AP
The former Egyptian president faces charges of corruption and complicity in deaths of protesters.
Maha believes this kind of rhetoric has led to an increase in verbal abuse. She thinks some people feel emboldened to shout and call names, knowing the authorities will be on their side. A popular term with some members of the Muslim Brotherhood is "shewaz," a derogatory term for homosexuals that loosely translates as "perverts."
While gay advocacy organizations are active in other predominantly Muslim countries such as Lebanon, Egypt's support groups are not well organized and struggle to be heard. The Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights is a human rights group that will talk about gays but this cause is not a priority for them. Another group that works with them asked that it not be named for fear of reprisals.
Despite their fears, gay life continues in Cairo. Men still meet on one of the city's bridges, and the Internet and social media help bring people together. Kholoud Bidak is an activist who is thinking of setting up an online forum. She was also in Tahrir Square in January 2011 and was stunned at the number of gay men and women at the heart of the protests. She has been disappointed in the two years that followed, but believes the gay community has at least gained recognition from human rights groups, which were previously uninterested. "They are finally starting to acknowledge LGBTs, 'oh, they were in the revolution since day one very, very effectively.' I thought that is very positive."
She remains scared by the anti-gay rhetoric from some politicians and clerics but tries to stay upbeat. "There is some hope," she says. "How? I don't know."
Related:
Oasis of tolerance or 'Republic of Shame'? Two faces of gay life in Beirut
'Men don't have to worry about being caught': Sex mobs target Egypt's women
Leave a Comment:
would it help if Obama gave them a shout out...let them come over here and get married...
That's right a shout out should do it. Afterall HE's got their back, or on their back, or whatever...........
Sounds like Egypt is being run by the right wing Christian conservatives in the US. Republicans should take note and purge that portion of their constituency, post haste, if they ever hope to win a significant election again.
Sounds like a terribly imbalanced place for anyone other than a heterosexual Muslim Egyptian male to live. Bad for women, gays, foreigner workers, Christians, Hindus...
@tempusfugit1 Almost thought you were describing Lansing, MI.
The good ol' USA; home to victims from all nations. Let's fast-track those homosexuals to U.S. Citizenship, pronto!
And yet Obama, the liberals and homosexuals here in the US support the muslim brotherhood!
Sounds like double speak to me!!
It must really frustrate conservatives here that the only nations beyond US borders that still persecute gays are muslim or communist.
Naw jerry..just like to sit back and watch the fun..!
By the way...I could care less about the sick, weirdo, sucky faces...Yuk..!
"The U.S.A. supports these freedom fighters"... O'Bama at the start of the Revolution!
Morsi won! He has a mandate from the people to rid Egypt's society of gays, Jews, & Christians. Women & young girls are next.
Iran claims they have no gays. Just watch. Soon Egypt will claim the same thing and then go about making it so. F*cking theocracies.
They first came for the Communist, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, by that time no one was left to speak up for me.
-Martin Niemöller
Yes, they could come over here and be given support as of Monday's speech; plus, if they do it illegally, they can remain in-country indefinitely and be given taxpayer support
Gay muslims! LMFAO!
my thoughts exactly bob....................makes no sense to me! oh well.......
Yes ... you fought for a political ouster.
The problem is ... you didn't also fight for secular representation.
I remember telling my wife when we were watching the revolution on the news. "Wow, are they really shouting Allah Akbar over, and over, and over?" I couldn't tell if it was a political revolution or a prayer group.
Religion and politics do not mix. It's exactly why we have the same problems over here with Christian fundamentalists. Our founders established a secular democracy because they new State-ran theocracies were a poison to society.
As long as Islam is so closely intertwined with your government ... I wouldn't hold my breath on getting equal rights.
crack down is a good thing.
Egypt sounds like the holy vision of the Christian sharia. Christians would love to make a society based on hate mainstream in the United States.
Jerry, I thought the exact same thing.
It just shows how completely clueless these people can be. Islamic conservatives and Christian conservatives couldn't be more tired at the hip if they tried ... absolutely blinded by "faith", yet they try and act like they are completely different.
At the start of the second Iraq war ... out of all the nations involved ... only two didn't allow openly gay men and women fight for their country. The first was Iraq. The second was, you guessed it, the United States.
Funny, we think of Egypt as being a backward nation and yet here they are, a leader in the goal of a gay-free world.
Ha ha Mike. "Face down, crack up" Remember the song?
The regime in Egypt has nothing in common with the majority of Christians in the United States. You haters are like the right wingers who compare the President to Hitler you have much more in common with them than you might think. Think in relation to your ideas is a poor choice of words, how about imagine?
chad-1841583, You hit in on the nail! Radical Muslim or rabid Right Wing Tea Party Republican they are for all intents and purposes two sides of the same tarnished coin. Respective faiths aside, they share the same World View ... REACTIONARY (people who define themselves not by what they are for but rather who they are against)! These so called Christians (who at their core act anything but Christian) go to a church every Sunday to pray to a Messiah who was a Hippie with a message of Social Justice and then they turn around that following Monday and through misdeed and inaction walk past (in affect) all those in need, understanding and a measure of empathy at the road side and margin of life and do so with disdain, arrogance, ignorance and even hatred (see parable of the Good Samaritan)! God is not Muslim or Christian. He/she does not bowl, hunt, fish or watch FOX. And certainly the almighty does hate!
In the context of this story ... as in ... you both worship a book that not only considers homosexuality an immortal sin, but an abomination punishable by death ... er, yeah .... you guys have everything in common.
Yes, I realize some American Christians have become increasingly moderate within their views on homosexuality. But I'm sorry, that simply has no barring on what is written in the scriptures.
It merely highlights the pick-and-choose attitude that Christians display when practicing their "faith."
If it confirms or gels with their own personal world view: "Oh yes, this is revelation." If it doesn't, or somehow makes their life inconvenient: "Oh, well ... those were different times, ya know. We'll just ignore that little part."
Just look at Dick Cheney. It doesn't get more conservative than that. What happens? He has a gay daughter, becomes a proponent of gay right. It would be comical if the hypocrisy weren't so sad.
The sophomoric gay slurs do nothing to further narrow vision of how things should be.
So, one group of animals is upset because another group of animals are acting like animals? So the animals with the most power impose their will upon the weaker animals, and force them to stop being animals in the name of being righteous animals. Great story!
chad when you paint with a broad brush you become what you claim to despise. I know I am a hypocrite and have a long way to go to meet the standards I believe are the way to live. Our mission in life is to coexist and love one another, relax. If you believe in diversity then its possible there is diversity in those you don't understand, it is something to consider.
It is going to get even worse when Morsi turns the FOUR F-16's, given to him by the U.S., on allied troops.
Why are the happy people in Egypt in fear..............oh not happy "Gay" but homosexual "Gay"............nevermind. I guess the Muslim Brotherhood isn't as inclusive and tolerant as we thought when we supported them.
Carlos, I'm not painting with a "broad brush" ... I'm simply reading a book you purport to be the inspired word of the your creator. If you dislike what I'm saying, you may need to take a closer look at what you're basing your aspirations on? Don't get mad at me for taking an objective, logical view at what you're telling us guides your life.
The USA is crazy and the give away goes on. banks getting free money from the Fed or tax payers and no one cares.
sounds like reich-wing bull$hit to me
Chad you are doing everything you accuse carlos of, and worse.
He is trying to engage you for civil discussion and you label him as a right wing christian **insult stupid insult here***.....
You are no better than anybody you are degrading right now.
Be honest-any statement with multi-syllable words sounds like double speak to you.
hopefully they get it right and dont allow gays in the country
DrAlchemy
Interesting.....
Please, provide case and instance where I called Carlos "stupid"
After that, tell me where I said Carlos was "a right wing christian"
.................
I didn't write the book billions of people across the world purport to believe in that condemns homosexuality as a mortal sin punishable by death, sir. Don't blame me for such a heinous, irrational, and unbelievable archaic belief. You either justify this stuff ... or you don't.
I suppose Russia, malasia, and other places with anti-homosexual laws are also being run by the same? It's hard to sound intellegent with your foot in your mouth.
This article just sounds like more bismerching to intentionally distort an acurate picture. There's no laws banning it, but homosexuals are demanding acceptance of homosexuality. It makes me wonder how long before cannables start demaning acceptance of their lifestyle, and talking about the benefits of human flesh. What homosexuals don't seem to realize is that political climate isn't going to rectify the internal conflict they face. The original qualification of homosexuality as a mental disorder was that it was ego-dysentonic mental disorder: where a person considered their disorder essential to their sense of self worth. A gay gene has never been discovered, and most likely, aside from voodoo science never will. I don't buy people can't change. I think they just don't want to.
Chad,
(1) learn to read. I never said you called him stupid. READING COMPREHENSION, isn't that one of the self appointed traits liberals give themselves?
(2) Your attack generalizes every christian and other spiritual people. You attack their beliefs, screaming they are intolerant, yet you are intolerant of them. Do I really have to explain that to you?
When somebody like Tank carson replies to your postings with this
"You hit in on the nail! Radical Muslim or rabid Right Wing Tea Party Republican they are for all intents and purposes two sides of the same tarnished coin."
You either justify it.... or you don't. Isn't that what you said? How do you justify such radical hate against all people who would call themselves republican or identify as conservatives? SO WHAT if they believe in god?
You are twice the hypocrite you accuse them of being and your pompous sense of self righteousness is only exasperated by your inability to recognize the similarities between their "backwards" manner of intolerance and your set of morally bankrupt hypocrisy. The only difference is they follow a book and you wrote your own.
You get what you vote for!!! Don't forget, you wanted this Islamic idiot as the man of the future.
Take note America, it's coming to you too after what you elected. The next step from liberal left Democrats, which is socialism, is communism and shortly thereafter dictatorship. It was all already here in history, again and again. Whatever makes you minions think this time is different?
Here is a little history:
In the Nazi death camps Gay men and Lesbian women where made to ware a pink triangle for a man and a black one for a woman. They where considered half the worth of a Jew who where made to wear the Star Of David (For you that do not know the Star of David is 6 pointed). These men and women where tortured and killed right along side the Jewish people.
Today we of the LBGT community wear these (Triangles,half the Star of David) as a symbol of pride & in rememberance of those that came before us, that gave their lives for us.
You haters and judgemental people need to think about what your saying when you support actions like this in the world for you could be the next depending on how the wind shifts.
DrAlchemy
Any other questions? Does that highlight your question, or do you want to change your story? Am I doing the things you highlighted or not, you seem to be confused here?
I never "generalized" anything ... I merely highlighted what the penalty of homosexuality is under your scriptures, as well as those of Islam.
Uhhh, yeah. I think sentencing people to death for a sexual act is obscene and archaic .... I'm not going to apologize for that position. If you agree with me, condemn the Bible, not me. How is this hard to understand?
I think I speak/write rather calmly.
You're the one that seems to be shouting. That's what blind faith does to you ... anything that rationally criticzes your faith is comprehended as an insult. It's quite sad.
Don't become so tolerant that you tolerate intolerance.
Wait, now you're blaming me for what other posters say?
Wait a dad gum minute......
Mr. Obama and his Progressive surrogates supported the "Egyptian Arab Spring" rebels.
So, whatever Morsi and his rebels do now will probably be supported by Mr. Obama.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Voted for Mr. Obama AGAIN ? Embarassed yet ?
Deflect reject and impune.... classic liberal junkie.
**insult stupid insult here***..... EXACTLY! AS in HERE IS THE PLACE WHERE YOU INSERT YOUR STUPID INSULT! I can see why you don't understand that. Chicago school system much?
"never "generalized" anything ... I merely highlighted what the penalty of homosexuality is under your scriptures"
And I never said I was a christian. I merely pointed out the blatant ignorance being displayed by your generalizations. And your reply contained yet another generalization! How is that hard for you to understand?
I'm only blaming you for sharing the same belief systems as other radical intoleranst with whom you share the same traits of those you "deem intolerant". Did you or did you not refute his post? He certainly agreed with yours, surprising.... Does a taste of your own medicine bother you?
You attribute fringe lunatic and radical "right wing, christian" thinking to all those who would affiliate with anybody OUTSIDE your political like. Claiming they will execute gays and they are all one in the same? SERIOUSLY?!
CHRISTIANS WILL DISAGREE WITH BUTT SEX, SHOCKER! That doesn't mean they will execute them. It doesn't mean they will treat them ANY differently. If you were half as "logical" or "rational" as you claim you are, you would know the distinctions between modern day christianity and the backwards barbaric actions of modern day islam. Again, not surprised you can't distinguish.
ItIsWhat!t!s
The DMSR has deleted homosexuality as a disorder long ago.
If your assertion is that you think people can change then how come you can't?
Are you the person that you have always been in your sexual orientation? If the answer is yes, then you have the answer as to why we do not change.
We know who we are.
DrAlchemy ... I'm enjoying you tremendously.
I love when people think they're extremely smart.
Basically, the only thing I've done is highlight what it says in both Islam and Christianity (a mere fact), and all you've done is claimed that I'm intolerant and insulting. Yet, you can't point to one single insult I've given.
:)
All you can do is say:
**insult stupid insult here***
:)
So basically, your prescription is: "Yeah Chad, you're not insulting anyone ... but if you did, I bet they'd be really insulted!! You intolerant bully!!"
As far as your highly illogical claims that I'm making broad generalizations, I guess you glossed over where I said:
Where did I say that Christians (for the mere fact that they are Christians) will execute homosexuals?
Actually, if you did have any semblance of reading comprehension, you'd realize I said the exact opposite.
Christians move the goal posts on their "personal faith" to conform with their own personal life experience and world view.
My friend, you're making this entirely too easy.
:) = *Yes ... these are me smiling at you
I guess O-man hates gays and Christians since he supported this revolution and their the ones getting slaughtered. Nice work pres someday the idiots that voted for you will figure that out.
I noticed that the vast majority of negative comments are coming from men.
With that in mind, consider going after those in the Heterosexual community that think that beating down women and children is acceptable. That would be a worthy cause.
Take care of your community and the fabric of that, before you attack a community that tackles that same problem and a boat load more.
Here is where you said those things. I love people who think they are smart too, the entertainment is mutual. I know you're sitting behind that screen thinking your smug and funny but your really just a mega reverse bigot and pestilant child with a chip on his shoulder towards those with faith.
"the only thing I've done is highlight what it says in both Islam and Christianity (a mere fact)"
OH really, which fact did you imply that was?
"I think sentencing people to death for a sexual act is obscene and archaic .... I'm not going to apologize for that position. Yes, I realize some American Christians have become increasingly moderate within their views on homosexuality.... that simply has no barring on what is written in the scriptures...."
So your fact is islam and christianity BOTH condone executing homosexuals, and you chastise them for it. Then acknowledge that some (more like MOST) christians are now more moderate and chastise them for "picking and choosing" what is convenient for their lives!? YEs chad you're only pointing out facts.....
"Oh yes, this is revelation." If it doesn't, or somehow makes their life inconvenient: "Oh, well ... those were different times, ya know. We'll just ignore that little part.""
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Apparently we should all think like chad. We can say whatever we want and as long as there's a fact involved so that way it's just "Sad you find it insulting".
Just look at Dick Cheney. It doesn't get more conservative than that"
Nope, no generalizations AT ALL.
DrAlchemy
Wow, not really sure what to say ... I completely agree with everything you just said. Was there something here I was supposed to refute?
- Beliefs have consequences .... and not just for the believer.
- Beliefs do not warrant special respect or special treatment based on their sole merits of being "beliefs."
Did I miss something .... Is Dick Cheney not a conservative?
It's pretty funny how my calling an openly and admittedly conservative person a ... gulp .... conservative, is a vast "generalization."
Yet, you can call me a "classic liberal junkie" even though I never once claimed affiliation with a political party???? Hmmmm ... kinda odd, no?
Try harder, I have confidence in you.
NOPE.
Convenient you deny and ask for proof and when it's provided you deny some more. There is nothing to refute. Your simply a reverse bigot religion hater. Thanks for seeing my point!
:) this is me smiling at your ignorance
chad-1841583
Which is undoubtedly why you are so full of yourself.
As an agnostic I can say that the only people more annoying than the bible-thumpers are the people who constantly whine and cry about them.
1.) I agreed with what you provided ... what am I denying? Did you not just read where I wrote: "I completely agree with what you just said"
2.) Word of advice.
If you're going to continually insult someone's intelligence and intellect, you should probably use the correct form of "*your."
I'm not saying I'm very good at spelling or grammar (I'm not), but I don't go about calling people dumb, and use in-proper language in doing so .... seems a little odd to me.
It's pointless to debate religion. There is blood on the hands of all organized religions. More wars & death over GOD and whose version GOD, than by any other means of death in the history of our world.
And it continues to happen. The question is how do we deal with intolerance. Are we ok with it happening over there because it's not in our backyard. We shouldn't be. It takes a personal commitment to be tolerant of those that are different from you. Not a harsh words, slinging facts or indifferance.
Backcounty
I'd reply a little more in-depth, but I never "whined" about anything ... this article is about homosexuality. I merely pointed out what the Bible and the Qu'ran said about the matter. It's not rocket science. And for you, it looks like that's a good thing. Perhaps you'd prefer "alchemy"....
chad-1841583
You must not have looked too hard (why am I not surprised) because I like rocket science.
You are the one yammering on and on about nonsense. Apparently you actually believe Christianity is a religion...It's not, it's a philosophy. There are dozens of Christian/Bible based religions and they all use the part of the scriptures that they identify with. It's called evolution (ironically). When theories (religious or otherwise) evolve should we just pretend the origins of those new theories never existed? Obviously not.
Sorry no one explained this simple concept to you before you wasted so much time ranting about it.
Bill O'Reilly ... Is that you? Tides go in, tides go out ... can't explain that.
Seriously though, I'm fan as well, but turn Fox News off once in a while.
chad-1841583
Yawn. I watch the middle of The Factor on Tuesdays to see Stossel and on Wednesdays to see Miller. That is pretty much the extend of my FoxNews viewership. As for O'Reilly personally, I don't know if he said that or not but I don't see much in the way of original thought coming from him. Pretty hard to take seriously someone who doesn't believe the moon was created by a collision with the Earth; apparently he just thinks God put it there or something??? You can call yourself a fan of that but I certainly am not.
I was more referencing your idea that Christianity is merely a "philosophy," and not a religion. An assertion he recently made ... and one that's been thoroughly pulverized since. I was actually a little surprised you brought it up.
Christianity as a philosophy is the classic counter to your Bible-v-Quran argument, there is nothing recent about it. People have been debating the similarities between Christians and Muslims for an age. There are few denominations of Islam and they all follow the Quran in it's entirety. The denominations of Christianity are more numerous than I could possibly count, with each picking and choosing the specific scriptures they choose to follow. It has been this way for ever and a day; you have somehow missed that fact or chosen to ignore it.
Both you guys are off point...Might I suggest you get back onto point or carry your back and fourth into a religious forum to debate.
While this is a country that is deeply divided by power and religion, the question is more one of how does it affect the group (Gays) in that country as it struggles to find it's identity. How does that maybe relate to our own country with equal rights for the LBGT community.
{shakes head}
Yeah ... er ... except that one time, up at the beginning, when I said the exact same thing. (#1.23)
As I said after you initially responded to me, I didn't write you back more in-depth, as it was quite clear you had little understanding of where I was coming from or what my point was. After reading your most recent post, it seems I was correct in that assumption. I think you cherry picked (pun intended) one of my posts without reading the others for full context of where I was coming from.
You chose to label me a "whiner" ... and that was that.
All I was initially doing was commenting on what Islam says about homosexuality in reference to this article's subject of homosexual Egyptians. Then I get attached by other posters with straw-mans and ad hominems of being "intolerant." Then I get attacked by you for being a "whiner" and "full of myself" for pointing out to other posters that I wasn't being intolerant.
Yup, tides go in ... tides go out.....
@Jerry, Muslim and communist which is where the US and Europe is headed already makes up 2/3rds + of the world, where are you coming from. are you aware of where you are being led, by following the sheeple herder you will find yourself in strange places that you will not know, understand, or relate to. it is not wise to blindly follow someone simply because they seam to know where they are going, and when you ask them they don,t really give you a straight answer, and when you ask why ar we going this way they say because we can, you ask what direction do we go when we reach the top of the ridge they say fore ward, you follow them all the while when they have never been where they are leading you and no one has a clue what to expect, that's not very wise is it North Africa took out all the governments, started to follow new people that are leading them to social chaos and bloodshed the revolution is only half done now the people have to fight each other because they are divided, how sad. can you find similarities in this in other countries, in attempting to fix their countries they destroyed their constitutions and took away their rights and all with the support of their people till it was discovered they were losing to much and they were better off before but now it is to late because they lost what little they had and their is no going back without real bloodshed, pain and suffering, Europe is near crisis with their socialist system in collapse and France is facing financial collapseall their wealthy people are moving out and revoking their citizenship to avoid paying high taxes to support strangers, Germany will have no other countries to trade with so their economy will go as well and here in America we will do the same because we will not open our eyes and accept the fact that to many social programs and to much tax will destroy any nation that embraces socialism always has always will that is a fact. so unrest will be world wide not just Egypt and the other North African states but everywhere so let them worry about their problems because you have a ton of s#it heading straight at you. you should have followed the goat herder instead of the sheeple herder at least the goat herder had a clue. Egypt should be a example of what to expect with change. if you can't make it better then leave it alone.
chad-1841583
Yeah... er ... not even close. You were making no attempt to differentiate between different denominations. You were simply mocking Christians as a whole for "picking and choosing". Allow me to re-phrase- ...you have either missed the purpose of that or chosen to ignore it. Better?
And then you went off on a tangent. If I had issues with your original statements I would have responded to that post. You assertion that I am "cherry picking" is ridiculous. Am I not allowed to disagree with only some of what you said?? Apparently this is a concept you have issues grasping just like you can't grasp the reasons why Christians disagree with parts of the Bible based on their personal belief's and values. In your mind it has, as you've said, no bearing-
How could it have no bearing if their personal believes have evolved past what was written in the Old Testament. I'll ask without answering this time- When theories (religious or otherwise) evolve should we just pretend the origins of those new theories never existed?
See, you want to lump all Christians together, the concept of differing denominations within Christianity eludes you. You won't see it because it takes away from your ability to criticize them all as a group. Many Christians have accepted the idea of gay marriage, many more have not (very liberal groups such as blacks included). Lumping them all together and attacking them because of the book their specific denomination is based on shows a lack of understanding, in your case I suspect it is willful.
Steve-3564331
Sorry dude, I'm done now. I'll let chad have the last word on our derail.
Gays in Egypt are @!$%#ed. I'd get out while the getting is good and I wouldn't be far behind if I were a Coptic. As for what impact it has here, I don't see it having any in regard to LBGT rights but it does highlight the risk of getting what you ask for. Mubarak was a dictator but there weren't a whole lot of people doubting that he was the lesser of two evils. Democracy doesn't always equal freedom as this story shows quite clearly.
Religions are just "theories" now, eh?
Funny, I must have misunderstood the part about them being revealed truths. You know, there is this little concept in Christianity called Revelation. But, don't let the actual history behind what we're discussing get in the way of whatever point you're trying to make.
No, you're just making a bigger deal out of a little issue. Yes, there are varying denominations of Christianity. Earth-shattering...
I'm not attacking their specific denomination, I'm criticizing the blatant hypocrisy with which people use specific ideas and beliefs to justify their own bigotries and prejudices, all the while ignoring whatever else doesn't mesh-and-meld with their current understanding of reality and the natural world.
Again ... this is checkers, not chess.
Welp ... we certainly can agree on that.
Funny, you can say that and it's completely reasonable.
I say the same thing (not as colorful of course), and I'm an "intolerant whiner who thinks too highly of himself." You sure you're not a Fox News superfan?
chad-1841583
From my perspective, yes. And fairly worthless theories to boot. Don't let the fact that I'm NOT in any way religious or consider them to be "truths" of any form get in the way of whatever point you were trying to make.
The standard response anytime a liberal doesn't have a legitimate argument.
Oh, and I checked your post history, you spend an awful lot of time whining and crying or simply mocking Christians. You find ways to insert your little jabs at them all over the place so I stand by my original comment. Your types are even more annoying than the people you constantly bitch about.
You already said you weren't religious in your first response, try and keep up. I haven't been operating under the impression that I've been arguing with a religious person.
Political attacks now, too? You're much more original than I first thought.
Funny, I haven't given you a second thought.
wow still going at it I see.....It's been almost all day.....You guys must be having fun mentally masturbating each other.
Take your bull@!$%# somewhere else.
chad-1841583
Then why would I consider them to be "revealed truths" or treat them as such? Try to keep up with your own assertions.
Is the truth an "attack"? And how is it different than your Fox News comment? If you are going to start with "politics" why would you be surprised by a response in kind?
I know, most of your statements on most of the posts I read made it perfectly clear that you just make unbased assumptions and run with them. Call me crazy but I like to do a little fact checking.
Steve-3564331
With all due respect, this thread is done. I know it's annoying when people go off tangent in the middle of a discussion but no one else has posted relating to this story for hours. No harm, no foul right? That being said, I will be taking my @!$%# somewhere else; beating a dead horse gets a little tiring even for an argumentative SOB like me.
I can see Obozo rolling out the red carpet welcoming the gay muslims to the US. And because they are Muslims and don't believe in Health Insurance, they don't have to pay for Obozocare
Having them come here to get married would not solve the problem of discrimination in their homeland.
Read any NBC News blog about same sex marriage and gay rights, and you'll find comments left by bigots or religious nut cases. Now translate that to an Islamic setting, and imagine what life is like for them there. I don't know what the future of Egypt will be in terms of human rights, but hard line Muslims would love to see Egypt become a strict Islamic nation. One can only hope that this won't happen. One can also be thankful that we have a Constitution and spirit in America that protects religious freedom, while at the same time protecting people FROM the dictates of a particular religion or religion in general. There are people in America who would cheerfully round up gays and other "sinners", and make their interpretation of the Bible the law of the land, if they could get away with it. They won't. Ever.
Let the laws be applied uniformly and selectively.
In Britain, one Saudi prince tried to eat his gay bodyguard and in the process, gay poor bodyguard was killed.
Did the British laws and Sharia laws apply to that Saudi prince? Was he punished?
The same applies to Christian and other religious priests too.
This is why you need to protect the constitution above all else. Even when it isn't convenient to your world view. Like the 2nd amendment for instance. Your start chipping away at the protections in that document and you end up in Egypt.
Some sanity..... you are right (2nd comment that I agree with) and I don't agree with you always... Your just spot on with this... The "right wing"/"left wing" is not the problem.... but not respecting rights of others is... We Founded this Republic on 250+ years of "getting it right" and now, all of a sudden... we are doing it wrong so lets change the constitution, ban everything from large sodas to AR 15's and we will be at least.. as "nice" as Egypt. Man... you are soooo right.
Flame77_7: Obama put a hit out - literally - on a guy who was believed to be involved with Al Queda. They whacked him with a drone in Yemen. Couple days later they whacked his 16 year old kid the same way. These were American citizens. Kid was born in Denver, CO. The dad was probably involved with al queda. Who knows for sure about the 16 year old kid. The point is they were American citizens and they were entitled to due process and all the protections that come with the 5th amendment. The one or two who spoke out on the left were crucified by the left as Obama bashers and shouted down. The one guy on the right who called for impeachment was shouted down by the right as a terrorist sympathizer. Once the protections of the constitution are diluted and whittled away until the precedent is set that they are not even valid - Katie bar the door.
"Let the laws be applied uniformly and selectively"
Correction please to:
Let the laws be applied uniformly and NOT selectively.
An interesting twist to this story. al-Awlaki's father sought a court order barring the government from assassinating his son before he was killed. The DOJ asked that the merits of the case not even be heard, because they were "state secrets."
And to add on to what you already said: the Constitution was violated twice. First by Amendment V, which states that no person can be deprived of life without due process, but also by Article III, Section 3, which has to do with treason, the only crime addressed in the Constitution. It states that nobody can be convicted of treason without witness testimony or confession in court.
@some sanity please, nothing matters Bonnie and Clide never had their day in court, same goes for the Barkers and Pretty Boy Floyd and dozens of others, President Lincoln suspended Habeas corpus and locked up over 5,000 people without trial during the Civil war. so what is one or two citizens that clearly took up arms with the enemies of the US and assisted in attacks against our people and troops, he had his trial he just wasn't present for it, I'm glad that he made it to his execution though.
After thousands of years of Islamic religion do you really think 2 years are going to change anything?
Two million years won't change anything.
In no time, Sunni Islamic extremists like Muslim Bloodhounds, Salaffi and others will invent enemies to hate and start killing.
That is the track record of followers of Islamic cult!
These days, they are on fast track on their hating and killing business.
Just examine Libya, Iraq, Pakistan, Mali and some more Muslim basket case nations.
"But now, the Muslim Brotherhood is not just a power to be appeased - it is the dominant power in Egypt's new government."
This is the start of inventing of enemies by Muslim Bloodhounds, Salaffi and other Sunni extremist Islamists.
Can there be bigger perverts, maniacs, seventh century desert bigoted beasts than Sunni rulers of House of Saud with 5000 princes and princesses and their big harems, Qatar, Kuwait, UAE and other Sunni Arab League nations?
These fountainheads of Sunni Islamic extremist versions like Salaffi and Wahhabi versions are not normal humans from all standards at any time of the history.
These barbaric and beastly Sunni rulers of ME have no rules and laws for them and all rules and laws for the rest.
In Egypt, the Sunni extremists with labels like Salaffi and MB (Muslim Bloodhounds) are opening up new chapters of Islamic bigotry. Morsi is just a front for them.
Just watch the fate of sane Muslims, minority sect/tribe people, Christians, women and Israel as the time goes by.
Followers of Islamic cult, especially House of Saud and other Sunni ME rulers inspired and funded Sunni Islamic radicals and militants (al-Qaida, Salaffi, Wahhabi, MB, Taliban and other label ones), are fast marching backwards to their seventh century desert tribal days.
They are indulging in rapings, lootings, killings and genocides of non-Muslims (Darfur, S. Sudan, Nigeria and spreading like wild fire in many regions and Muslims (Libya, Yemen, Mali, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan and other places).
Even in Syria, if Assad is overthrown by Sunni Islamic religious Nazis like al-Qaida, MB, the conditions of Christians will be unbearable just like Iraq.
Pakis and Sunni rulers of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, UAE and other Sunni Arab League nations are responsible for 80 percent of world problems including economic ones.
Examine the devastations with Iraqi wars and now sanctions on Iranian oil and the resultant oil price manipulations.
They are making the lives of their own people also miserable by their Islamic religious madness to the intolerable levels.
Those who keep them in power and imagine them as allies must be crazy or too cheaply bought out!
She needs to contact Yahoo and MSNBC....
They never miss the chance to push the gay agenda..lol
Don't forget CNN
Ah, the "gay agenda," the horrible statement that gay people should have the same rights as other people.
NO the "GAY AGENDA"
where nobody is allowed to have any opinion at all if it isn't the scripted "I love gays give them everything they are asking for"
the GAY AGENDA:
when the country is screaming about unemployment and wage problems, the liberals will boycott and attack an entire company because of 1 (stupid BTW) man's opinion. Those employees don't need their jobs right?
THE GAY AGENDA:
Where it's not enough to go about civil rights with class or dignity but instead you're sexual promiscuity has to be shoved in the faces of the general public and be demonstrated through the streets and in peoples front yards in pardades.
Yes that "horrible statement" that gay people shouldn't have rights... it couldn't possibly be anything else.
they have the same rights as everyone else genius. they want special rights based upon a behavior. thats the homosexual agenda.
You're entitled to any opinion and whatever you want to say. If you don't have that ability, I suggest growing a spine.
Any American is free to do business with whom they want. If an idiot CEO opens his mouth and it damages his business, that is his fault.
Hyperbole much? When you've been an oppressed minority for centuries and are finally allowed to be yourself, this is what happens. It's the product of generations of homophobia. If you don't like it, you shouldn't be supporting oppression of people's identity. Like you are now.
They cannot file jointly and possibly save money on taxes. They do not have visitation rights if one partner goes into a hospital because they are not "family." They cannot claim a partner as a dependent. They cannot claim a partner as a beneficiary of an insurance policy. They cannot get a piece of paper from the government that says they are married. They have the same rights as everyone else? I don't think you know what you're talking about. The only "special rights" being asked for are those same rights granted to a couple when they are opposite sexes.
Cool story pragmatic.... you mad bro?
come out of the closet praggy.... Ofcourse you will deflect and displace your confusion and blame to somebody else, throws people off the trail....
If you can't recognize the obvious cause and effect relationships between they hypocrisy of their methods and the reason people continue to resist than I am wasting my breath. I don't disagree with their rights. I disagree with how they do it. You obviously need somebody to attack and impune. phucking coward.
How unfortunate.....Maybe, the gay Egyptians should ask obama for amnesty in the U.S! The way things are going, they are the "norm" here!
Why don't you just leave the Muslim brotherhood over here too? I'm sure they would love to come over here too
They have Never been the norm here...Never will be
What a bunch of trolls. I'm straight, but I want YOU to define NORMAL. I don't mean sexually either. What is NORMAL? Does living in an igloo seam normal to you? It does to some people. NORMAL is only from the preception of where your at not where you are not. Maybe you should take a class in biology and find out that we all start out Female when developing. Does that sound Normal? It is true, you didn't start life with what you got.
Normal is what the "Majority" are. A minority is not normal by "definition." Besides if it bothers you so much not to be accepted just find a member of the opposite sex and get on with your "Normal" life as nature intended, nature put the natural revulsion (read homophobia a symptom the majority of healthy people share) to sexual attraction of the same sex in the "Majority" of us. The only reason for sex at all is to propagate the race, it was never meant to be JUST FOR FUN! By definition"Homophobia" is NORMAL!!!
"Normal is what the "Majority" are."
Normal is more or less what is perceived as normal by the Majority. Which now has peaked past the 50% mark as accepted as normal by the majority in the US.
But if you argue the statistics you cant argue the Constitution! And this is why the founders of our government made sure we were not a Majority Rule Democracy. We are a Republic where all men are created equal. Every man woman and child shall have inalienable rights at birth.
This is why those pesky christian laws that have been enacted over marriage are being decided by the SCOTUS.
Gay marriage wasn't an issue when the constitution was drafted but as is obvious over time<3 centuries> it has become an issue that needs to be addressed by the court once and for all.
Can Marriage as recognized by the states and the federal government be exclusive to Heterosexuals? Are Heterosexuals a protected class of people who are protected simply because of their sexuality?
Amerall is just joshing us. You know how I know? Cause he is in the minority. Therefore, he is abnormal and would be advocating for someone to "normalize" him by forcing him to find sex FUN. Good one Amerall. By the way, the majority despise trolls too and the majority support our GLBT brothers, sisters, aunts, kids. But you just go on making jokes to amuse yourself.
Hey Amerall, if you want to use the nature excuse, then I guess you are against marriage as well? Homosexuality has been observed in just about every animal species on the planet, yet only a handful mate for life. Marriage is more against nature than homosexuality by your rule of thumb.
So how's that working out for you now? Mubarak was bad no doubt, but do you think the brotherhood is really your answer and supporter?
Hey! I've got a great idea. Lets send Egypt 16 F-16 fighter jets and 200 M1 Battle Tanks. Oh wait......we are already doing that. The Muslim Brotherhood must be laughing at what fools we are. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
The muslim Brotherhood will do just fine...
Gotta remember that, They are oblamos buddies....!
Sounds like Egypt is being run by the right wing Christian conservatives in the US. Republicans should take note and purge that portion of their constituency, post haste, if they ever hope to win any more significant elections.
Typical liberal bullsh*t, but just like the liberal mentality if you keep saying it over and over it must be true. The fact is the people who are being persecuted in that area are the Christians but you will never hear that from most american news outlets,
You're trying to tell us the right wing Christian conservative Republicans aren't the biggest opposition to gays in America? They have more in common with the Muslim Brotherhood than they do main stream political thought on the right or left in the US. This is the truth. Deal with it or watch the Republican party fade into obscurity.
To compare American Christians to the Muslim Brotherhood is asinine. But trying to explain it to people like you is like talking to a brick wall, it's a waste of my time.
It's not my problem if you're uncomfortable looking in the mirror.
Homosexual acts are a sin. God destroyed 2 Cities because of homosexuality and the straights who supported it, or accepted it, died with them. Do you really think that you are going to get true Christians to accept same sex marriage so we can burn with them?
But, it's Obama's Arab spring.....everyone should be happy and gay.....
opposition to gays? Really? In the city that I live near they parade down the street every year on a pile of Kleenex with their c*cks hanging out. You can't flip on the tv without seeing a gay man operating in some capacity.
Yeah, things are brutal for them here I don't know how they manage to survive. LOL
I would like to thank all the Republicans who've posted anti homo replies proving my point.
If you want to believe that story from your fairy tale book, then go for it. You don't have to accept it, but keep your religion out of lawmaking.
and keep your law making out of religion. ALL of them.
Like it or not this country was founded on Christianity. George Washington dedicated the USA to God, was actually his first act after his inauguration. Our government actually approved the Bible for teaching material for our schools.
WRONG. Like it or not, we were not founded on any Judeo-Christian beliefs. George Washington dedicated this country to "Providence," or an "Almighty Being," NOT "God," since he was a Deist who did not believe in "God," but rather in a "supreme being" who was not divine.
Put in perspective: At that time, the primary method for teaching reading and writing was to use the bible. Public school did not exist as we know it today. In fact, the blackboard didn't exist, so the bible was a text that was appropriate for such use at the time.
John Adams said it himself:
Treaty of Tripoli, 1797
Stop spreading lies and misinformation, Tether. You need to look up Lemon v. Kurtzman; religion has to stay out of our laws.
Demonstratably false! This country is founded on the Constitution. I defy you to prove otherwise!
In addition to what Erin said, it's also a personal expression of belief, and not legally binding or applicable.
Good thing we have the SCOTUS to fix such oversights!
That's only if you actually believe in the concept of sin or follow some religion that endorses that view.
And that's just a silly biblical myth!
Your acceptance is neither required or necessary. Only the government under the law, is!
The Middle East is not all bad. There is still some Morals left in the world.
We don't care.
Best deal would be to ship all of our gays and lesbos to Egypt..!
Liberals and Obama supported the Arab Spring not to mention over a Billion in aid every year to Egypt (thankyou taxpayers) and now some f-16 fighter jets and tanks. What a bunch of Liberal hypocrites
And they have the audacity to say christians are the ones being opressive....
Oh yes, because that aid wasn't happening during Republican presidencies? Clueless.
Aid was certainly happening. Letting one government crumble while a more totalitarian and oppressive one takes it's place, not under republican watch.
In fact, were still stuck in our previous affairs trying to prevent it. The same wars you cry about trying to prevent the outcome you're party created, that you cry about!? HAHA SERIOUSLY!? This gets better... the same religion the progressives defend to the teeth (while persecuting christians in the USA) are more barbaric than the people you pit against you! AND YOU SUPPORTED THEM!
You could cry that "we shouldn't have been involved in ME under bush" but the same goes for Obama in this case. You will probably come up with some RIDICULOUS theory or party line rhetoric and make yourself look stupid, and I will let you.
Where are the Arab Spring Supporters Bev and Fiesty
Where is Sarah to run around the board frantically calling everybody a bigot?
they can all stick it up their azz ............... oh wait ...........................
The Muslim Brotherhood been planning this for a longtime and seized the moment when they could. As soon as Morsey switched parties it was cause he knew as a Muslim Brotherhood candidate he knew he'd never get elected. So he switched to the "Freedom and Democratic" party to get in and now is just gonna get run over by the Muslim Brotherhood. He will be ineffective once they allow the Clerics to start making the rules. This will become another Theocracy just like Iran...mark my words.
Soon the Christians and other minorities will be supressed if not just plain murdered in the name of "Alah" or what ever you call your excuse to act like animals. Isn't religion wonderful. Christians and Jews aren't much better.
Other nations laws, traditions, culture good or bad is none of your business. Worry about your own BS. So arrogant we think we are better than everyone else.
Memo, We are not better.
Just remember "Egypt is one of our greatest allies in the Middle East". Barack Obama September 2012
For the life of me, I cannot understand why we are still giving Egypt tax payer money, and just gave them fighter jets and shipment of tanks. These people want us dead!
Because the liberals are being progressive and tolerant by supporting their religious freedom and they are getting double points doing it because it pisses of the christians.
IT will come back to bite them in the ass if the muslim brother hood starts an assault on gays. Hope they get their rights... would be kinda sweet to watch the libbies squirm if they didn't though.....
They can thank Obama for their fate, how's that Arab Spring working out for everyone?
I have often wondered where are the voices of women and gay-lesbians in this country when they see what is happening all over the arab world to their contemporaries living under these oppressive regimes. Our president continues to pander to these regimes with full knowledge of the human rights violations they are commiting while at the same time criticizing the Israel, the only stable democratic free country in the whole area.
This morning, when I woke up, I said, "It's good to be an Infidel!", just as I feel every morning. Being an infidel gives me the complete freedom to look at the Islamic idiots in the Middle East, and call them for what they are - idiots. Being an infidel frees me from worshiping some bogus deity, or reading the words of a proven pedophile and murderer, and using these words to justify slaughtering others for having the temerity to hold different beliefs. That kind of subhuman idiocy can waste a lot of time, time that would be better spent enjoying life, loving one's family and friends, and having a life in general. It also frees me to enjoy a cocktail, a beer, or a glass of wine, and some nice, applewood smoked bacon with breakfast, and a half-rack of baby back pork ribs for dinner. If I hear the "call to prayer", I can fart in their general direction. Being an infidel rules!
"Born that way" or not, not EVERYONE thinks Gay is Ok. There are still some in the world who live by their religious teachings, all of them, even the parts that certain aspects of society wish weren't there.
Now I'm not anti-gay, I don't care who or what anyone else falls in love with, sleeps with, whatever - that's their business.
But I am VERY anti-hypocrisy. If you claim to follow a faith, follow all of it. You do not get to simply pick and choose just because some part of it conflicts with your lifestyle.
"Once you have placed a label on the box you have constructed from your beliefs, you cease to possess the ability to perceive beyond its constraints."
A little advice to the women and gays of Egypt. Move to another country, and quickly. Just please do not come to the USA as we are all stocked up on crazy here. Also, if you can speak with your islamic infected buddies in Dearborn Michigan and San Diego California and entice them to move with you, that would be wonderful!
Thankfully, what you stated about hypocrisy is why religion is dying out.
At least why some religions are dying out... but the old ways seem to be making quite the come back. Seems like there's a certain appeal to not being automatically condemned for simply being human, not having unrealistic expectations dictated from "on high", and not being judged solely on one's orientation that continues to captivate people.
Now if we could just convince the religious reich we're not "satanists" because there is no such creature, we might just be able to get along.
Obama is merely continuing a US policy stretching back several decades of buying off Egypt for Israel's sake. That policy may become less and less viable on the ground due to the social changes now in Egypt. As the conservative posters here demonstrate, even here the infection of monotheism runs deep.
US Christians fight for the death penalty in Uganda for openly gay citizens. Can't kill them over here so we export our hate overseas, oh good.
If they are anything like you BK I understand their thoughts. We get it you hate religion and find it easy to bash any who embrace it, on the other hand you want everyone to be understanding to your choices.
Dope
Peter, it is all religions that screw up the world. It can also be argued that christianity is not monothestic because of the belieif in the father, son & holy ghost/spirit. 3, 3 gods in one.
Why such criticism of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood hate for gays?
Obama is not going to like any criticism of his Muslim Brotherhood friends just because they do no like gays. Remember Obama apologized and gave them over a billion American tax payer dollars.
The Muslim Brotherhood is a hate and violent organization. Blame Obama for supporting these criminals.
You are so correct about his affiliation from the brotherhood as we saw at the Democratic Convention. The people who are liberal and Gay or support the Freedoms of Gays are fooled if they believe his is truly supporting them. This is another Smoke and Mirrors political magic act like all the others he has entertained us with. I am going out on a limb to say that much of his political money came from the brotherhood and their supporters. He is playing the old game of using both sides of an issue to play off against themselves. He is garnering liberal support publicly, while privately, he is supporting the rise of Islam here in America.
However, for the time being, I would invite all the Homosexuals in Islam controlled countries to come to America, Join the Army or Marines for a chance to go kill the oppressors of their home lands. America needs to wise up. Our Republican Party has been neutered by their ultra-conservative stance on homosexuality. People fear them more than they fear the Muslims because they are already here.That is thr "Fruit" that Oblammy picks from the tree he planted. The harvest was seen when he managed to take the election.
This brings up a question I have been curious about for a long time. Why is it that the hateful writings of the ancient Hebrews (the Old Testament) is so reverred by Roman Catholics, and Protestants, and Muslims alike, when the tenants of all force them to war with each other? When they are not killing each other, they kill all non-believers such as Pagans?
Gods are a man made concept that has been with us since the cave men were scratching picture on Cave walls. Zeus was a jealous God like Allah, but at least the Greeks could write virtue into their stories.
Lazarus