What did the military warn Obama about, that the U.N. can make as many laws as they want but also doesn't have the authority to do anything to any country? Space invaders, the Mayan Calendar, and the annual "unprecedented flu epidemics" are more of a threat than the U.N.

The drones are killing innocent people. Obama increased the use of them and now the world sees us as bullies.

This is total b.s. Why doesn't the UN focus on serious matters such as genital mutilation, slave labour, and child prostitution? But if they question the 'legality' of drones, then why not question the legality of terrorist networks? The US can offer a deal - pack-up terrorism world wide and we'll park our drones.

Armed drones are the twenty-first century answer to seventh-century Islamic extremism.

We are killing Children and innocent people. We give the Islamist extremists every reason to hate us. Since Abu Ghraib, guantanamo, torture, drone attack that kill, and injure. How are we going to feel if it happened to our families?

Agree ORB. Just buzz a drone over the U.N. That should shut them up.

2,600-3,404 Pakistanis have been killed by drones, of which 473-889 were reported to be civilians.

And as many as 200 of those civilians were children. Nobel Peace Prize indeed.

"To date, there has been an abysmal lack of transparency and no accountability for the U.S. government's ever-expanding targeted killing program,"

Even in this kinder, gentler Obama administration? Though transparency was the name of the game, togetherness..... come on.. everyone... Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya.........

About 2200 US forces killed in Afghanistan since 2001.

2600-3400 Pakistanis killed by US drones.

We are not at war with Pakistan are we? They are supposedly our ally.

Something is wrong here.

This is the first time in my life that I agree with the ACLU.

Way to go ORB, now I don't need to post that comment.

Wyo2;

How are we going to feel if it happened to our families?

It has happened to our families, 9/11 ring a bell, that's why these "particular" conflicts are happening!

America now just kills who they want when they want. No trail. No evidence. No review after the fact.

Obama says he wants you dead, That's it, You're dead.

They now kill Americans without any trial.

DingleB;

And as many as 200 of those civilians were children.

Cruel as it is, you know what is said, "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree". Especially when your still living in the seventh century.

Riverboy,

That the overuse of the drone was going to cause issues. I do particularly remember warning about the civilian casualties as well. As far as what the UN can and can't do, well you are correct for the most part, it is unlikely that they will sanction USA. Hence why I said it was his turn to get his pee pee slapped. About the most they will do.

Hello folks, while Bush gave us preemptive war, Obama has given us remote controlled war. He may not have started the use of drones but it definitely is his calling card.
In international legal terms, the U.S. government itself should now be viewed
as constituting an ongoing criminal conspiracy under international law.

The U.S. government has committed atrocities all around the world in our
name which makes us complicit in war crimes which include torture, enforced
disappearances, assassinations, murders, kidnappings, extraordinary renditions,
‘shock and awe’ (bombings), and (the use of) depleted uranium, white
phosphorus, cluster bombs, drone strikes, etc.

We must not allow and permit any aspect of our foreign affairs and defense
policies to be conducted by acknowledged war criminals but must insist upon the
impeachment, dismissal, resignation, indictment, conviction, and long-term
incarceration of all U.S. government officials guilty of such heinous
international and domestic crimes.

The serial aggressions of the U.S. violate such basic documents of
international law as the Nuremberg Charter, the Nuremberg Judgment, and the
Nuremberg Principles. They also violate the Pentagon’s own U.S. Army Field
Manual 27-10 on The Law of Land Warfare, which applies to the President himself
as Commander-in-Chief of U.S. Armed Forces under Article II, Section 2 of the
U.S. Constitution.

In Pakistan we haven’t declared war on that country. Targeted killing of
human beings in a non-battlefield situation is pure murder under basic
principles of Anglo-American common law and international criminal law. And in
this case, where these murders are both widespread and systematic, these
murders constitute a Crime against Humanity under Article 7(1)(a) of the Rome
Statute for the International Criminal Court.

Although the United States is not a party to the Rome Statute, nevertheless
President Obama is subject to the jurisdiction of the ICC and its Prosecutor
for murdering people in ICC member States.

Who are the terrorists and criminals? Do the ends justify the means?

Acosmet,

I don't particularly care one way or the other about the results of the drone strikes. Doing a job is doing a jog and it is saving the lives of American service men and women, but when you make people jealous, they want to slap back.

Most of the UN doesn't like us any more than any of the 14th century goat herders we are fighting. Personal opinion still goes back to build a fence around em and play goalie when one tries to escape.

Tracy-2712120 I think if we would start to use drones to target American street gangs in the US and other American bystanders would get killed in the attacks, people here wouldn't be happy, so why the innocent Pakistanis should be OK with this? I guess because when is done to others, we called it acceptable collateral damage, but if it happens to us is murder or disregard for human life at best.

Trust....

Does killing in the ame of Allah justify the means....just saying.

Your drivel is exceptional though. Spoken like a true Utopian.

Riverboy,

That the overuse of the drone was going to cause issues. I do particularly remember warning about the civilian casualties as well. As far as what the UN can and can't do, well you are correct for the most part, it is unlikely that they will sanction USA. Hence why I said it was his turn to get his pee pee slapped. About the most they will do.

You're right, it clearly is causing some issues. Do you think it's causing more issues than if we sent in ground troops to Pakistan and Yemen or let al-Qaeda know that as long as they aren't in Afghanistan they have all the time in the world to do whatever they want? What about Israel's Mossad that is so good at assasinating leaders of terrorist groups with radiation at close range with no civilian casualties? Are the groups okay with those or do they still hate Israel and lobby the U.N. calling them war crimes? Ask yourself what this is really about.

Let's just agree with the U.N. and the drones can kill civilians. We can then pull out along with our funding for this worthless U.N. union and retract all aid to other country's as well.

We can fly all the freed up drones around our borders for protection, The cockroaches in the middle east can kill each other off whicle we watch on a TV monitor.........

TrustVerify;

Who are the terrorists and criminals?

Depends on who writes the history.

Do the ends justify the means?

The "end" is aways a product of the means, "Education or the lack there of"!

All acts of terrism should be looked at

Tracy,

I believe we're close to being on the same page.

but when you make people jealous, they want to slap back.

But, I believe it's when you make, or have people, that feel insecure/threatened (not jealous), they want to "slap" back.

The UN is continuing to fulfill its role as a place for the people of the world to air their grievances. Nothing will be done as the US is not a signatory to the treaty creating the International Criminal Court at the Hague and it does not recognize its jurisdiction.

Of significance is the well established fact that if the United States chose to remove itself, and particularly all of its funding, from the UN, the entity would collapse and thousands of otherwise useless dilettantes would have to find other worthless things to do.

Drones are targeted against higher echelon al-Qaida and Taliban in Pakistan. These are the brutes who murder Pakistani school girls for wanting to attend school, the same brutes who chop off hands and feet for real or imagined transgressions, the same brutes who stone women to death for being seen in public with an unrelated man, or for the crime of having been raped. The same brutes who force boys into driving a suicide truck or otherwise use them as cannon fodder. The same brutes go around killing non-Muslims or Muslims who are insufficiently "pure" (i.e. 7th century in their thinking and actions). The same brutes who whip people in a public for playing music or being found with alcohol, and the list goes on and on.

Those are the brutes we are targeting with drones, and it's very effective too. Every effort is made to minimize civilian deaths and that is effective too. Often the militants are targeted while driving along in cars on deserted stretches of road, just to avoid civilian casualties. Militant compounds are watched for weeks on end to make sure that there aren't women or children around. Civilian casualties happen occasionally but it is war after all and civilians are always going to be harmed to a greater or lesser degree. This is a lesser degree of civilian casualties. The reason why we use drones in Pakistan is because the terrorists attack and kill in Afghanistan, then run away and hide and rest and recuperate in Pakistan. Drones have effectively put an end to that extended R & R that the terrorists used to enjoy in Pakistan, so naturally they don't like it.

The U.N. is going to rely on "witness statements." What a bad joke! The only witness statements that they are going to be handed are by Taliban manipulators who will supply reams of phony material for the U.N. to be suckered by. The whole thing would be comical if it were not so serious.

Make no mistake, this effort is to put a stop to the drone program that is effectively killing top echelon ranks of al-Qaida and Taliban in Pakistan. That will result in more American casualties (and not just Americans) in Afghanistan as the terrorists will regain their safe sanctuary in Pakistan from which to launch new attacks. They will rebuild and be stronger than ever if/when the drones are prevented from monitoring and killing them..

@Riverboy, No argument from me on your point in #1.18. I don't profess to know where the line is, or should be drawn. I am glad that American Service Men and Women aren't dying for this.

@Acosmet, Agreed, but I will still contend it is a little of jealous, hate, insecure, etc. As many flaws as we find in our own country, there are literally millions upon millions that are dying get to those flaws as they are better than the situation they are currently in.

Good eve all

Wyo2

We are killing Children and innocent people. We give the Islamist extremists every reason to hate us. Since Abu Ghraib, guantanamo, torture, drone attack that kill, and injure. How are we going to feel if it happened to our families?

The Islamic extremists are little angels, they never kill innocents, blow up buses full of school children, target civilians, attack hotels, malls, or dance clubs. They have never flown planes into buildings, used innocents as human shields, attempted to murder a 15 year old girl on her school bus because she spoke out against them. They have never bombed train stations, attacked gas plants and taken the workers hostage, they have never decapitated journalists. How long of a list do you want Wyo2, I can do pages if you want.

My heart bleeds for them, we make them terrorists my ass.

If they don't like the our drones with the multimillion dollar missiles that can knock on the front door of the target and then place the warhead in the targets lap that's just tough @!$%#. If they want us to stop I have no problem stopping. It would be a lot cheaper to just use the drones to locate the target and send a B52 over to drop 200 500lb dumb bombs in the general vicinity of the target. Then they'll really have something to cry about.

romilio

Tracy-2712120 I think if we would start to use drones to target American street gangs in the US and other American bystanders would get killed in the attacks, people here wouldn't be happy, so why the innocent Pakistanis should be OK with this? I guess because when is done to others, we called it acceptable collateral damage, but if it happens to us is murder or disregard for human life at best.

There is a huge difference between terrorists and gang bangers. We are at war with these terrorists and Pakistan is doing nothing to stop them from hiding, training, plotting and the ISI is likely aiding the terrorists. How did Bin Laden stay in Pakistan so long undetected by the Paki's. You will never convince me they didn't know he was there.

Adam44 Well said.

"Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal" - MLK Jr.

Wyo2

Obama increased the use of them and now the world sees us as bullies.

Actually, I think invading Iraq on lies and rumor put that Moniker on us...

Tracy, OK jealous, if by that you mean; they would like to be a big dog, and have a more secure environment (Indoor plumbing, electricity, health care, etc.). Problem is, their insecurities (religion) get in the way of their growth.

And I 2nd the "well said" to Adam and kudos to Antistupid too.

"Data collected by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism say 2,600-3,404 Pakistanis have been killed by drones, of which 473-889 were reported to be civilians." If you avg approximately 23% of the avg 3002 targets are civilians.

How does that compare with over 100,000 Iraq civilians killed during the Iraq war? Is Pakistan really our friend knowing they kept Al-Qaida safe? I'm still angry with the 5000 US civilians killed during 911.

I just thought of another thing, the last time the U.N. relied on "witness statements" they sanctioned the U.S. invading Iraq. It turned out those "witness statements" were just a lie, there were no WMD's, political figures inside Iraq wanted to overthrow Sadam and they used the Western world as tools to do it, and the administration at the time was happy to oblige. Let us please rely on these "witness statements" some more.

Randy Rand - So Obama and Bush are both bullies. In 12 years we have made soooo many changes in our country for the better. I guess voting for Obama wasn't the change I was thinking of, it's just more of the same. I never voted for Bush.

Not really Wy02, Bush was a liar, fleecing the US and Iraq to fill the coffers of his Oilfield Trash buddies. Obama is a kick ass President going anywhere to kill the SOB's that threaten our freedom. Yes, you could all him a bully but that is childish in the face of terrorist threats!

Randy Ran

So you too were tricked by the Dems into thinking Bush lied about Iraq, eventhough the Clinton Administration and Congress passed a bill to change regimes in Iraq.

I like that Obama kills terrorists, I don't like the credit he takes and you believe. The killing of UBL was a long process created by enhanced interrogation, and a cooperative CIA and FBI created by Bush under DHS. Prior to Bush, Clinton essentially dismantled the intel community. Bush rebuilt it leading to better intel today.

But I think there is an interesting interplay with politics drones and enhanced interrogation. During the Bush years, he was criticized for enhanced interrogation, possible getting critical information, and all of those terrorists who were waterboarded are alive. Now, during the Obama years we launch drones and act as judge and juror, killing the terrorist and his family and friends.

This country should not carry out enhanced interrogation flippantly and with complete control and with no risk of life. We did that with KSM and others.

The terrorists we killed with drones deserved death. Their friends and family maybe not. But we never got a drop of intel out of those victims of drone attacks.

That which is effective will be targeted by its detractors. Career politicians will gravitate to issues of controversy. The prospect of compensation or advantage will surely find victims in any calamity. People of little means to relocate are asked to choose a side in the light of investigation and the are left alone to face the consequences for the rest of their dark lives.

There will be only subjective and political findings under such conditions.

Lar,

I other option is to send troops after them. That will make more casualties. I have no problem with drones or enhanced interrogations if you get the information needed. The question is why did Pakistan give Al-Qaida a safe place to live???

Gossamer

Yes, risking troops lives is a problem, drones save US military lives, and they kill more collateral and we get no intel. Some may criticize both strategies, I find both strategies acceptable when we know the risks. My point was how Bush was criticized for IE while Obama just kills them. And finally, there is no Enhance Interrogation when you use drones. So you can't combine.

As to Pakistan. That is a different question. The US thought that Zardari could only control the urban areas and had no control over the rest of the country. That is why the Lashkar, Taliban and AQ roam freely. But in reality Zardari is so weak he can't even control urban areas, even ones right next to his military school.

So Pakistan doesn't GIVE Al Qaida or the Taliban safe haven, Pakistan has NO POWER to eliminate them.

Anybody scared of this is scared of the sky falling

UN or no UN, there would need to be some sort of international standard, and yeah, countries still might ignore it. But we have reasons we have standards for war, and only an idiot would think they weren't pertinent. What is likely to come out of this is a series of procedures countries can agree on before deploying drones. For example, do you have the government's approval of the country you are striking in? If not, is it a declaration of war, a criminal act, nothing at all? Who decides? Is it even worth bringing up to the UN?

I support the US use of drones and given the US is on the security council, people crying about the UN doing something to the US need to actually LEARN how the UN works. So try to use common sense when looking at this, rather than HOLY S**T UN MAKES ME SPIT MY CHEERIOS OUT!

Yep, here comes the World's financial terrorist organization to control TERRORIST STRIKES by drones.

The United Nations has the gall to even bring this up when all they do is send in Blue Helmets without weapons into a country to control violence and to terrorize member Nations for more funding through their tentacle organizations (IMF, G-7, G-8 and G-20).

BTW: Mr. Obama has just authorized $ 128,000,000,000 to go to the IMF for World Redistrubition.

It is high time to kick the U.N. out of NYC after the diplomats pay their parking fines and then send them to Germany or France where they will be welcomed with open arms.

Lar,

Thanks for the information. Good read.

If either side takes a gun into a school, church, or hospital, it becomes a legitimate target under rules of war. When civilians are killed as collateral damage the above reasons are why.

The use of drones by the US Military, saves US Troops lives. Plus the Military are held ACCOUNTABLE, when they kill the wrong people...

Unless you are the Marine & Navy medic that was KILLED by one. Even when the people on the ground and the drone operator's supervisor were questioning the target...

One of the first things Obama did when assuming office. He changed the CIA Policy from capturing terrorist to ASSASSINATING them...

The CIA and 40+other countries are now operating drones. A Mexico drone landed outside Yuma, AZ last year and the US Border Control crashes their regularly...

The problem comes when NO ONE is held ACCOUNTABLE for the innocents killed. These drones currently use missiles designed to kill TANKS (20+lb warheads). There is considerable 'Collateral Damage', though the new systems are suppose to be much smaller...

Until recently the CIA & Obama have stated that there were few INNOCENTS killed or injured by these CIA operated drones. Once you are deemed a TERRORIST, you and everyone around you can be targetted and KILLED. Without out any legal justification or oversight, anywhere in the World...

STOP DUMPING MANURE EMOTIVE NON FACTUAL OPINIONS ALL OVER NEWSVINE'S "GET SMARTER HERE"

First, as stated MANY Times before the United States MUST get out of the United Nations, to stop the US Military being used as the United Nations Military B!tches at US Citizens Expense (US Citizens of the US Military Lives, and US Citizen's Money).

Second, Iraq and Afghanistan ARE United Nations Missions since 2001.

And to you ignorant Bush Bashers ENOUGH OF YOUR IGNORANCE. AS BECAUSE PRESIDENT CLINTON BELIEVED THAT THE COLD WAR US DEFENSE, US INTELLIGENCE, US MILITARY WERE NO LONGER NEEDED PRESIDENT CLINTON AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF ORDERED THE CUTTING OF THE US DEFENSE BUDGET: The RESULTS (NOT YOUR IGNORANT OPINION) as a participant and survivor:

A. The US Army Corps of Engineers no longer had the funds for the US Army Corps of Engineer Infrastructure Projects within the US like their recommended upgrades, maintenance, building new, retrofits, modifications, etc. to the Levees of New Orleans BEFORE Hurricane Katrina. US Congressional Katrina Hearings.

B. The Director of the CIA Bush, that later became US President Bush (41) had built up the US Intelligence Agencies that were the envy of the World after the collapse of the USSR and the KGB. President Clinton (42) Gutted the US Intelligence Agencies that left the US Blind and Deaf to the Events leading to the 9/11 2001 Attacks. Bipartisan US Congressional 9/11 Commission (Committee) Investigations, Findings, and Recommendations with former President Clinton saying "I'm a so sorry".

Because of President Clinton's Gutting of the US Intelligence Agencies, the local intelligence assets Worldwide were no longer funded, these local intelligence assets took DECADES to establish as credible verifiable local intelligence assets. After their funding was chopped, many to survive and make money to feed their families became their Nation's Counter Intelligence Agents (Anti US); because of this many US Allies Intelligence Agencies no longer allowed US access to their Intelligence and the US had to rely on information (not even intelligence) from "Potentially Hostile" Nations like Pakistan, Jordan, etc..

From firsthand experience, in 1998 when we went into Iraq to Overthrow President Hussein, we did not have any local Iraqis Intelligence Assets to link up with, so we failed with some of us getting killed along with the hundreds of thousands of Shia Iraqis we hired as assassins and insurgents spun by President Clinton as "Dictator Massacred His Own People"; so while still at Iraq we get involved with 1998 Operation Desert Fox as President Clinton as Commander In Chief Ordering the Targeting of the Urban Poor Areas of Baghdad (again we protested, as you do NOT mess with the Poor of Islam, so we were limited to only Target Damage Assessments, no Targeting), after killing thousands of Iraqis in the crowded urban poor areas of Baghdad, the Islamic World condemned the US as the Great Satan; and we had to exfiltrate as even the few Pro US Iraqis that we lived with turned against us. In October 2001 just after the 9/11 2001 when we went into Afghanistan to Overthrow the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban Government, eliminate Al Quada and the Islamic Jihadists we did not have any local Afghan Intelligence Assets to link up with, as after the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban Government locked Afghanistan down tighter than North Korea, we were still getting actual Intelligence from local Afghan Intelligence Assets so the US knew that Osama Bin Laden was at Afghanistan after President Clinton allowed him to go free after the 1993 First World Trade Center Bombing and refused (used the US No Assassination Policy as an excuse) to authorize the US Military Asymmetric Warfare Teams to terminate Osama Bin Laden so that they could finally go home to their families; then President Clinton stopped funding them (local intelligence assets) with his Gutting of the US Intelligence Agencies then no one knew where Osama Bin Laden was. In 2001 Operation Viking Hammer, once again we went into Northern Iraq to eliminate the Taliban, Al Quada, Islamic Jihadists that escaped us from Afghanistan via the Old Silk Road, again because of no local Iraqis Intelligence Assets many of us believed that we had chased Osama Bin Laden from Afghanistan into Northern Iraq, as that was most had fled after we Overthrew the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban Government and were pursuing them and killing them with extreme prejudice until the US Politicians (hint was not Bush) told us to stop as not to violate the SovereignNations of Iran and Iraq; Operation Viking Hammer was not a success, as the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran gave them Islamic Sanctuary before we could eliminate them, many returned to Afghanistan, some fled south and received Islamic Sanctuary from the Shia of Southern Iraq, the major f**k up was being a United Nations Mission, NATO appointed Gentleman British General McColl as the Commander ISAF, and he did NOTHING to stop the Taliban, Al Quada, Islamic Jihadists from returning to Afghanistan via Iran or from Pakistan.

In 2001 President Bush (43) provided Presidential Authorization and Delegated the Mission to Locate and Capture Osama Bin Laden to the Director of the CIA, Commander US Military Special Operation Command, Commander US Military Joint Special Operations Command, as it was Absolutely Necessary to Capture Osama Bin Laden to obtain his thought processes and planning processes imprinted on his Al Quada Leadership for the US to preemptively interdict all Al Quada International Franchise Activities Worldwide.

In 2006 President Bush (43) Amended the US No Assassination Policy and provided Presidential Authorization to Terminate Osama Bin Laden as a Mission Failure to Capture Osama Bin Laden.

Harvard International Review, 2006, Article, "US No Assassination Policy On The Offensive".

And of course the FACTS do not fit the Demoncrap narrative, "Bush gave up looking for Osama Bin Laden" or "President Obama killed or ordered the killing of Osama Bin Laden" Like:

AC Robertson - One of the first things Obama did when assuming office. He changed the CIA Policy from capturing terrorist to ASSASSINATING them...

Nope. President Obama just happened to be in Office as the wheels were already turning at the CIA, USSOCOM, USJSOC, long before President Obama became President. With Presidential Authorization (in writing as a "Standing" (valid until completed) Executive Order) to Capture or Terminate before President Obama.

And The Lies for Political Gain: President Obama, the Reelection Campaign, "Osama Bin Laden is Dead, GM is Alive".

The second part of the lie "GM is Alive", it was President Bush (43) that kept GM and Chrysler Alive with his 2008 GM and Chrysler Indicative Summary of Terms for Secured Term Loan Facility (Final Terms and Appendix).

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/sep/22/barack-obama/obama-says-bush-administration-put-no-conditions-a/

And the Biggest Lie, pertaining to the attack on the US Consulate, was that President Obama's "Osama Bin Laden is Dead, GM is Alive" inflamed the over 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers Worldwide to Violence. With the "Libyan Rebels" supported by President Obama as Al Quada Saudi Arabia (AQ), Al Quada Islamic Maghreb (AQIM), Al Quada Syria (AQS), Al Quada Yemen (AQY), Hezbollah, Al Quada Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG), etc., that went to Libya to Overthrow US Ally President Gaddaffi the Collaborator to the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers; became Ansar Al Shariah and the currrent Libyan Government.

Inflamed by President Obama's "Osama Bin Laden is Dead, GM is alive" Ansar Al Shariah plans the Attack of the US Consulate Benghazi to coincide with the Greatest Defeat of the Great Satan (US) by their Greatest Holy Warrior of Islam Superstar Osama Bin Laden, 9/11.

As the Islamic World in response to President Obama's Reelection Campaign "Osama Bin Laden is Dead, GM is alive" respond, "Obama, Obama We Are All Osama", "Obama Declared War Against Islam".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udSEcQbM308

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pJGX1JzyFc

Again the Facts (Documented) do not fit the Demoncrap narrative.

C. So while we were still at Northern Iraq, the US Politicians (again not Bush) demand that we (US Military) accomplish US Policy Overthrow of President Hussein in accordance with President Clinton's US Law, H.R.4655, "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998" Section 2 Justifications (Findings) Weapons of Mass Destruction, Section 3 US Policy Overthrow of President Hussein.

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1057063/posts

Many of us that were involved with the US Military Training Teams sent to US Ally Iraq during the Iran Iraq Wars protest, as we knew that President Hussein was the Counter Balance to the Fundamentalist Islamic Shia Republic of Iran, using his wealth from sales of Iraqis Oil, using the lives of Iraqis Citizens of the Iraqis Military. We are threatened with everything from Letters of Reprimand all the way up to charges of Treason, so under protest we start Operation Hotel California as to create a Strategic Operational Feint to make the Iraqis Military Command and Iraqis Political Leadership believe that the US Military Forces would come thru US Ally Turkey, so that the Iraqis would commit the majority of their Iraqis Military Divisions North of Baghdad (and they did over ten Full strength Iraqis Armored and Mechanized Infantry Divisions after we destroyed five full strength Iraqis Armor and Mechanized Infantry Divisions with no air support and with company sized forces augmented by the US Army 10th Special Forces Group.).

D. President Clinton's US Law, H.R.4655 "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998" becomes 2003 US Military Operation Iraqis Freedom and a UN Mission, as it took President Bush (43) from 2001 till 2003 to rebuild the US Military that President Clinton cut to the Bone, as most US Military Units were either deactivated or turned into States National Guards (underfunded, no maintenance, minimal equipment). It later became DOD Policy to have States National Guard activated and sent to War(s), as what the "weekend warriors" did not sign up for, so they started b!tching and moaning "Illegal War" (which it was NOT, due to President Clinton's US Law H.R.4655) and "Unfunded" (which it was NOT, due to US Congressional Appropriations).

SO STOP ALL YOUR WHINING, B!TCHING AND MOANING ABOUT IRAQ OR BUSH BASHING, IT WAS PRESIDENT CLINTON BEING INFLUENCED BY THE JEWISH LOBBY, MONIKA LEWINSKY, GIVING HIM A BLOW JOB, THAT DEMANDED WAR WITH IRAQ BY US LAW WITH US CONGRESSIONAL APPROPRIATIONS.

As far as the "Mission Accomplished" that was due to President Bush (43) finally accomplishing the Mission of US Policy Overthrow of President Hussein; as the Mission that President Clinton (42) DEMANDED as US Policy and President Clinton as Commander In Chief FAILED to accomplish with his 1998 US Military Operation Desert Fox resulting in the over 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers condemning the US as the Great Satan; and it was routine for ALL USN Vessels to display a "Mission Accomplished" banner on USN Ships and Boats (Submarines) prior to arriving into port, since long before President Bush (43) (as well as my criticism of USN personnel getting "participation medals and awards" while being hundreds to thousands of miles away from the actual combat, as unfair to my subordinates as actual ground combat forces pertaining to promotions (result higher pay for them as well as retention (career) instead of future RIF).

E. As far as killing innocent "Civilians", nope, those innocent "Civilians" are providing Material Support to Terrorists (2010 US Supreme Court Ruling pertaining to No Material Support to Terrorist Organizations) in the form of Islamic Sanctuary as required by current Islamic Laws.

In most cases the potential targets of MQ strikes are under Special Surveillance for days, weeks, months before being targeted. In many cases their "children" are used as lookouts, their woman as pack mules smuggling weapons, ammunition, bomb making materials, food, medical supplies, etc. to the Holy Warriors of Islam as mandatory per current Islamic Laws that also include the Funding of Trillions USDs per year of the Holy Warriors of Islam as Mandatory Islamic Tithes.

F. Pakistan is controlled by three main factions: 1. The Fundamentalist Islamic Citizens of Pakistan, that broke away from Hindu India. 2. The Government of Pakistan (US Ally). 3. The Inter Service Intelligence Agency.

G. Unlike what uneducated Fundamentalist Islamic Jonathan-1982062 keeps posting as Taqiya (required as Mandatory Islamic Tithes) posting that we must attack US Allies (US Ally Government of Saudi Arabia, US Ally Government of Pakistan, etc.), Fundamentalist Islam is NOT based on Nation of Origin, nor being labelled as Sunnis or Shia; but by Actions.

example: Fundamentalist Islamic Osama Bin Laden created his Fundamentalist Islamic Al Quada to Fight the US and Overthrow the US Ally Saudi Arabian Government.

@ david-475776

That was a very interesting read, very informative, it certainly appears you are not among the many that forget history. The only thing I have some issue with is that we started the Islamic fundamentalist movement through our actions or lack thereof. I believe they were already in existence from the late 40's onward. At that time they were mostly targeting Israel and Jews(PLO, Carlos the Jackal, Abu nidal, Black September etc.). Being allies of Israel the targeting of the US and other Israeli allies was inevitable and our way of using peoples of the world for our own purpose and then ignoring them when our objective is accomplished has also caused many groups or countries to become our enemies, such as the way we stopped helping the Afghans after the Soviets were defeated. I also have my doubts as to whether Quadafi was ever really a US ally, he may have helped covertly, buy I believe he would help almost any group that he could make gains from, more like a mercenary, what about Pan Am 103.

These drones do kill innocent people and they will be used to killed Americans if you dont stand up and end this now.

Dont forget. All 5 reasons for invading Iraq turned out to be lies.

Over 60 million people were killed during World War II, which was over 2.5% of the
world's population at the time. Of those 60 million killed, 40 to 52 million
were innocent civilians, vastly out numbering those killed who were actually pointing
guns at each other. A huge percentage of innocent civilians killed were the
result of massive bombing raids on both sides where bombers leveled entire
cities. First, the Germans obliterated Rotterdam, then going after London,
aiming their bombs directly at the civilians. The British retaliated with
massive bombing raids aimed at entire German cities with the sole purpose of
killing as many civilians as possible. Even the Americans eventually joined in
towards the end of the war aiming their bombs at German cities, and then the climax
when two Japanese cities, along with its citizenry, were obliterated by two
nuclear bombs.

Today, a number of terrorist organizations have declared war on the U.S. The U.S. in
turn has declared war on them. As much as we would like to live in a dream
world, war has always included the death of innocent civilians. It is
commendable that U.S. technology has improved to the point where it can wage
war and limit innocent civilian casualties...Yet it will never be possible to
completely eliminate it. A wise man said years ago; "He who lives by the
sword will die by the sword." Until everyone in the world agrees to beat
the swords into farming equipment (or God steps in and forces the governments to
disarm), mankind will continue to kill each other during war, including innocent
civilians.

david-475776,

The one held responsible is the person who signed it into LAW or made it POLICY, EO 13491...

Just like Obama took credit for allowing guns into National parks, Feb 2010. It was also a Bush era bill..

we have a guy without conscience, that high handily murdered thousands of people on the other side of the planet to kill resistance, after you cut through the propaganda. A 100 massacre village, crimes. Becoming common knowledge CIA scripted president. Glimpse, the peace prize sociopath was bad choice.

Antistupidity - I also have my doubts as to whether Quadafi was ever really a US ally, he may have helped covertly, buy I believe he would help almost any group that he could make gains from, more like a mercenary, what about Pan Am 103.

President Gaddaffi was more of a US Ally than you would like to believe:

President Gaddaffi and Libya as a US Ally, to get the President Bush US and UN Sanctions and Embargoes lifted so he would ship Libyan Oil to the US European Allies, as negotiated by President Bush's SOS Condoleezza Rice:

Collaborated with the CIA. President Gaddaffi had his Libyan Military hunting the Islamic Jihadists at Libya. Stopped his pursuit of Nuclear Power. Turned over his Chemical Weapons to the US. Transfer of US Islamic Jihadists Prisoners from Guantanamo to President Gaddaffi's Prisons (including later President Obama's). Human Rights and Libyan Citizen's Rights as praised by the UN and UA (African Union).

The Fundamentalist Islamic Arab League of Nations demands President Gaddaffi's Death for Collaborating with the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers, a Death Penalty Fatawa is issued.

As even before becoming US Military Asymmetric Warfare Qualified, I was trained and experienced with Nuclear (Weapons) Physics, Biological (Epidemiology), Chemical Weapons, Missiles, etc.. So when President Gaddaffi became a US Ally we (those of us with experience from Operation Golden Python and Operation Steel Box) had to figure out what to do with all the tons of President Gaddaffi's Chemical Weapons, and all the Nuclear Centrifuges.

Like I stated before about Pakistan being controlled by Three (3) Factions: 1. US Ally Government of Pakistan. 2. The Fundamentalist Islamic Citizens of Pakistan that broke away from Hindu India. 3. The Pakistanis Inter Service Intelligence Agency.

The situation pertaining to Libya was similar, with the Fundamentalist Islamic Citizens of Libya supporting condoning praising the Bombing of Pan Am Flight 103, as required by Fundamentalist Islamic Laws the Holy Koran (Quran) as Law of the 109 Suras of the 114 Suras Calling All Islamic Believers to War Against the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers.

As neither a confirm nor deny, there were US Military Asymmetric Warfare Teams at US Ally Libya, after US Ally President Gaddaffi Ordered his Libyan Military to go after the Holy Warriors of Islam, especially the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group that were previously killing US Military at Iraq. US Ally President Gaddaffi was using his Wealth from his Oil Sales to the US European Allies, the lives of his Libyan Citizens of the Libyan Military to keep the Holy Warriors of Islam stuck fighting at Libya, instead of the rest of Africa.

The majority of President Gaddaffi's Actions as a US Ally were Overt not Covert, just not shown in the US; but, shown Internationally (with these International News Media Reports inflaming the Islamic World as President Gaddaffi collaborating with the Great Satan (US); as to why the Fundamentalist Islamic Arab League of Nations demanded his Murder as Islamic Law "Collaborators Die a Horrible Murdering to dwell in that Firey Place".).

Another piece of information to consider of why there are civilian casualties with a precision weapon, is that many of the al-Qaeda leadership live several wives and children. We have seen in the past that they move their sons into leadership positions. This may be the harshest, most incensitive statement I've ever made, and I feel a little strange saying it; but if someone is living in a house or compound with al-Qaeda leadership members, I don't really have much sympathy when the explosions they create around the world to kill civilians are delivered directly to their home.

river, what if it your neighbors house but they blow up the whole block?

The criteria for an airstrike used to be solid intel, if you were going to send an officer in a billion dollar machine that costs thousands each time it leaves the deck you'd know how many freckles your target had on his ass.

Now that we have giant fiberglass RC airplanes with fragmentation bombs it has a lot less to do with terrorists embedding them selves with civilians and a lot more with "we heard there was a bad guy in this general area, and the effective radius of a hellfire is this general area.... why not"

You hear a lot of people say things like "then don't be so close to the terrorists when they get blown up" point one being that any self respecting terrorist isn't going to let his neighbors in on what he's doing, point two being that if you do find out you're living next to a terrorist and you suddenly up and move that terrorist may come to suspect you know something about him he probably doesn't want you to know.

MC Gusto, educate yourself on how Predator Drones work and what their firepower is. Your hypothetical does not apply.

To Andrew, good points. But drone strikes are used on leadership, not the grunts in al-Qaeda. The leadership are public figures and spiritual leaders, you actually have it backwards about "any self respecting terrorist isn't going to let his neighbors in on what he's doing." It doesn't apply to the leaders, no self respecting leadership role would attempt to hide their identity.

The criteria for a drone strike are, 1 In target area 2 Combat age and 3 Male. Now the "target area" is supposed to be based on intelligence about leaders that seems to be inaccurate with alarming frequency.

Now why drone strikes are billed as a "surgical" or precision strike is far beyond me, you standard hellfire with a fragmentation shell standard on predators is lethal out to 100 or so feet just the shockwave itself. The shell turns into shrapnel that can easily kill in an open environment for almost 1000ft (not that a building is an open environment)

What you say about shrapnel is true. I don't like any of this sort of killing, but what do you think would be a better alternative? Sending a ground invasion into Pakistan and Yemen or letting al-Qaeda know as long as they aren't in Afghanistan they can take their time and do whatever they want. No matter how the U.S. decides to deal with it, it's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.

When we leave Afghanistan it will look like Iraq does today. Car bombs, suicide bombs, anyone sho helped us will be tortured and killed. Going into thes countries was stupid and the US accomplished nothing. The Al Quada and other extremist terrorist groups just moved to Lybia, Syria, etc etc. The drone attacks just supports the jihadists claim and helps them recruit more terrorists.

Let it rain.

Haha, nice.

Like the 16 year old american boy we killed, who had never even been accused of being loosely affiliated with terrorists?

Yes we killed him and many others without asking permission, so it is clear that we can. Is it really a good idea though?

It is true that they killed a 16 year old American citizen living in Yemen, his name was Abdulrahman Anwar al-Aulaqi, I figure you left out his name because you didn't want people to research your statement and see that the 2nd part is a lie. It's untrue that he was never even accused of being affiliated with terrorists. Him and his father, both killed by drone strikes in Yemen, were both members of the al-Qaeda public relations side. They regularly made videos calling for Islamists to kill infidels over specific current events around the world, and both have written Fatwahs hundreds of pages long on how killing westerners earns you a spot in the afterlife. If people doubt that, they can research him themselves, since I included the name.

I'm pretty sure they don't have to investigate it's legality. It is obviously illegal, just like our drone program. Get some sense when posting please.

We protect our self's against enemy's that threaten us. The USA was attacked, the UK was attacked, Israel was attacked, Spain was attacked all by Terrorist Scum that must be hunted down and eliminated. If the drone works which it does so be it.

We just need drone strikes on suspected terrorists inside the US, that'll really solve our terrorist problem.

Most definitely.

Typical - They are terrorists so let's go and kill their children. That will teach them how tough we are. The US is becoming the bullies.

Andrew Metzger

We just need drone strikes on suspected terrorists inside the US, that'll really solve our terrorist problem.

I get your point, but the difference between how we handle them in this country and let's say Pakistan is that, we send our government and law enforcement agencies after them so we have no need for the drone strikes. Does Pakistan do the same to terrorists living there? The answer is they did once in Swat Valley for a few days, but then they gave up and blamed flooding for forcing their armies to retreat. Also they have arrested one al-Qaeda linked leader from a Kasmir separatist group, put him in house arrest, then decided there was no evidence and let him go.

First of all, It has been AGAINST the standing US LAW to ASSASSINATE political leaders, for DECADES...

The USA still refuses to sign the International Bans on;

1. Using & manufaturing Mines/bomblets...

2. Using & manufacturing Chemical & Biological weapons...

3. Using SPACE as a War Zone...

Truman - used the ATOMIC Bombs on Japan for POLITICAL reasons. His Generals, Saw NO military need...

LBJ - ESCALATED the Vietnam Conflict, with LIES, for MANY reasons...

Carter - Used the CIA/ISI to arm, finance and train the Afghanistan radical Muslims. To help cause the down-fall of the USSR...

Clinton - Used these same radical Muslims in Kosovo/Bosnia, in order to help them establish a Muslim state in Bosnia...

Obama - Stopped the CIA from capturing terrorist, to ASSASSINATING them, for POLITICAL reasons...

Obama - ESCALATED the Afghanistan Conflict for POLITICAL reasons...

Obama - Backed the Lybia invasion for POLITICAL reasons...

wyo2 writes:

Typical - They are terrorists so let's go and kill their children. That will teach them how tough we are. The US is becoming the bullies.

Women and children are never targeted by the drones. Stop LYING!

So let me get this straight. When America is doing something illegal according to international law and the UN wants to investigate our policy it is because they're anti-American. Oh gosh, I weep for the future. The facts are, what we're doing is illegal. Just because someone has the balls to say it doesn't make them anti-American. Should we be able to do as we please, carte blanc all around the world with no absolutely no dissent? Psst, you're sounding a bit authoritarian.

Well, I will post for beer!

I'll counter your bet with all the money I have.

And the alternative is?

This reason has also been cited by many in the CIA & US Generals, about the armed drones...

Robert Grenier, who headed the CIA's counter-terrorism center from 2004 to 2006, "We have gone a long way down the road of creating a situation where we are creating more enemies than we are removing from the battlefield. We are already there with regards to Pakistan and Afghanistan."

General Flynn of the US Army opines that “… inescapable truth asserts that merely killing insurgents usually serves to multiply enemies rather than subtract them...

Renowned journalist Rahimullah Yusufzai says, “Drone attacks are radicalizing other people who may not have supported the Taliban.”

The Taliban leaders, earlier Baitullah Mehsud and now Hakimullah Mehsud, have used the unpopularity of the drone attacks and stated that suicide bombings in Pakistanare a reaction to drone attacks in Pakistan...

It was Zbigniew Brezinski, Carter's national security adviser that stated, "What will be more important in history? A few stirred-up Muslims or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the Cold War>"

9-11 was the driect result of arming, funding & training of the radical Muslims, that were brought to Afghanistan...

USAF RET-3995245,

Remember your Articles of War??? The Second Continental Congress established 69 Articles of War to govern the conduct of the Continental Army in the year 1775...

Killing the bad guys is acceptable, but killing their family and anyone else in the area, IS NOT...

When a US Marine/Army Troop kills or a Navy Seal bloodies their nose, THEY are HELD ACCOUNTABLE...

When the Army or USAF kills innocents from the air, it is usually IGNORED...

When the CIA ASSASSINATES anyone, they are NEVER held ACCOUNTABLE...

In answer to your question; yes. The UN does condemn terrorist activity and third world governments committing atrocities. Now that you know, is it OK if they investigate our illegal drone program?

So comparing our drone strikes to suicide bombers is your point? Aren't we better than that? Have we stooped so low that we are compared to the terrorists? Obama should scale back his drone attacks that he says he approves each and every one. Peace Prize for killing children, leader of the United States.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that we should eliminate the drone program (there's no putting that back in the box) but certainly have transparent and strict guild-lines for their use would be good, right? A lot of people on here think it's all or nothing; we either use our drone program with zero oversight or we scrap it.

Someone should have the authority to make sure the loss of life isn't just the people in the village and that the drones don't kill or injure children.

Drones don't kill children, terrorists do. If these cowardly bastards would stop hiding behind women and children...

Well said tmac. It really is too bad that more people on the left aren't protesting this as they certainly would be if it were being done under G.W. Bush.

I think Obama is laying low on the numbers of drones and deaths. This President and his administration have made some big mistakes: Fast & Furious, not pulling out of Afghanistan, Benghazi, drone attacks, keeping Guantanamo open, to name a few. All Presidents make mistakes and have blunders. But in 2008 I believed in his "Hope & Change" but he kept almost none of his campaign promises. How do you accept the Peace Prize and then strike villages with drones that kill the innocent as well as the children?

I guess I should change my name from Wyo2 to disillusioned.