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Polizia Di Stato / AFP - Getty Images, file
An aerial view of St Peter's Basilica and the Vatican. Despite the vast assets of the Roman Catholic Church, the Holy See made a loss of $18.4 million loss in 2011.
VATICAN CITY -- As the Catholic church prepares to choose its second leader in a decade, the world’s eyes are once again focused on the complex and secretive ways of the Vatican.
In mid-March, 117 cardinals will be locked inside its walls until they decide who should next attempt to govern one of humankind’s most enduring, yet bewildering, institutions.
Their new pope must not only provide spiritual leadership to followers in more than 180 countries around the globe, but also reconcile deep divisions within the two-and-a-half square miles of the Vatican itself, on the left bank of Rome’s Tiber river.
In his homily at Mass late Wednesday, Pope Benedict XVI spoke of “sins against the unity of the Church,” hinting at the office politics of an organization worth at least $8 billion but which features a switchboard operated by nuns.
Each day, some of the Vatican City’s 1,900 lay workers leave the cacophony of traffic-choked Rome and step across the white lines that mark the state boundaries. Inside, they assist up to 2,800 global employees of the Holy See – including cardinals and archbishops – to the sound of choirs and the leading of prayers.
“It’s only a normal workplace if having a Raphael fresco on the office wall is normal,” said George Weigel, NBC News Vatican analyst and author of "Witness to Hope," the best-selling biography of Pope John Paul II.
More than 5 million tourists see inside the Vatican’s grounds and museums every year – almost as many as New York’s Metropolitan Museum of Art – but the power lies away from the cameras.
One of the possible candidates for the papal role, Canadian Archbishop John Michael Miller, gave an insight into this very private world.
Alessandra Tarantino / AP
The lights shines from Pope Benedict XVI's apartment overlooking St. Peter's Square at the Vatican on Tuesday.
“When the main elevator of the Apostolic Palace stops at the third floor, you have two choices: turning to the left, for the pope's private apartment, or to the right, for the offices of the Secretariat of the State,” he wrote in a 1997 article for ‘The Catholic Answer’. “Every day about 200 men and women - bishops, priests, religious and laity- turn to the right. They walk along magnificently frescoed corridors to their modest offices, where they discretely collaborate in the pope's ministry to the Church and the world.”
Although the wealth of the church has been on display throughout history, its financial details are not. Paolo Cipriani - director of The Institute for Works of Religion (IOR), often referred to as the ‘Vatican Bank’ - last year pledged to “lift the veil of secrecy” surrounding the organization. The institute manages $8 billion of the church’s worldwide wealth and investments as well as 33,000 accounts for clergy and parishes, held in euros.
An open day last June was the first occasion in which journalists had been allowed inside its headquarters, inside a medieval defensive tower that once housed the Vatican prisons, newspaper La Stampa reported.
'A pretty lean organization'
It is an environment at once opulent and modest. Despite the vast assets of the Church, the Holy See made a loss of $18.4 million loss in 2011. Its $308 million income from IOR revenues - and supporters including its biggest single donor, the United States – fell short of the $326.4 million cost of running its global missions and operations such as Vatican Radio.
A separate budget for the Vatican City state, which deals with the administration of the church’s "home" in Rome made a $12.4 million profit in 2011, with most of its $113 million coming from tourists at its museums.
“This Dan Brown notion that the church is oozing millions of euros is just not true,” Weigel said. “These incredible buildings are not liquid assets. Most of the money that comes into the church goes straight back out again.
In a moving Ash Wednesday mass attended by thousands, Pope Benedict gave his final public mass and is now preparing to meet with the pastors of Rome's parishes. NBC's Anne Thompson reports.
“It is not even the biggest employer locally. Given the number of lay Catholics worldwide – 1.2 billion – the Vatican is a pretty lean organization. Of course, lean does not necessarily mean efficient.”
Confidential documents, stolen by the pope’s former butler and published in 2011 in a scandal known as "Vatileaks," revealed the haphazard and sometimes bizarre nature of the church finances. As well as tens of millions of dollars in small, personal donations from around the world, an Italian chat show host gave 10,000 euros with a note seeking a meeting with Pope Benedict.
The papers also revealed the efforts of Archbishop Carlo Mario Vigano to slash grossly inflated costs such as the $700,000 life-sized nativity scene in the center of St. Peter’s Square, according to a Newsweek feature on the scandal.
Insiders insist there is little sign of modern extravagance inside the Vatican, but the working world is very different to a similarly-sized corporation.
“Some of the technology – the computers, for example – may seem a little backward from a U.S. perspective,” said Father Robert Gahl, associate professor of ethics at the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross in Rome. “There is an esprit de corps which is very motivating. It is a highly professional atmosphere.”
When asked how many people work in the Vatican, 20th century Pope John XXIII is reported to have replied: “About half."
Gahl said there was a grain of truth in the comment. “Like in any organization, there are some people who are there for the tremendous job security,” he said. “But there are also priests who devote a lot of their lives to their work.”
Alastair Jamieson / NBC News
Vatican City even boasts its own postal service.
Even the more secular aspects of the Vatican, the city state, are complex thanks to its geography. Squeezed into a triangular site in central Rome, the smallest country in the world has grown well outside its original footprint and much of its buildings and offices – including its own hospital – lie outside its boundaries but are granted the same judicial separation from the rest of Italy.
Much of the administration of the Vatican City, which issues its own passports and license plates and has its own postal service – reportedly much more efficient than its Italian counterpart – is carried out by lay workers who must agree to the church’s moral instruction.
“I don’t think they have to be Catholic but I would image that, this being Italy and because of the nature of the job, most people who apply are Catholic,” Gahl said. “I would also think that, when you interview somebody for a job at any non-profit you are likely to choose somebody who shares the same ideals and objectives as the organization.”
One of the first tasks of the new pope will be to try and rein in the Roman Curia - the Byzantine hierarchy of the Holy See, which includes various dicasteries, pontifical councils and secretariats - as well as modernize its practices.
“There is a feeling that Benedict never really got to grips with it at all,” said Weigel. “I think some changes are going to essential for the new pope.”
A dissident Austrian priest, Rev. Helmut Schueller, has spoken out against the ritual of the cardinals' conclave - at which voting papers in the ballot for the new pope are burned to create white smoke - and called for greater openness in the process of selecting a new leader.
"If things were going well, the conclave fathers would at least be going out to the Church grassroots and calling meetings to really hear what the faithful expect," he told Reuters on Wednesday.
However, running the Vatican will require more than just fresh management skills.
“The pope is not so much the head of a corporation, more the CEO of a large non-profit – and that means bringing clarity in direction and teaching,” said Gahl. “Cardinals do not usually subscribe to Harvard Business Review.”
Javier Barbancho / AFP - Getty Images
Joseph Ratzinger became Pope Benedict XVI in 2005. Look back at his life from childhood through his papacy.
Related:
Pope hit head on trip to Mexico; Vatican denies link to resignation
Pope's abdication could thwart Berlusconi's political comeback
Vatican history of 'cover-ups and disarray' will challenge new pope
Leave a Comment:
So much potential to do good; so little realization of that potential: As it is written; of whom much is given, much is expected. The catholic church is guilty in sins of commission; and sins of omission. The works of GOD are not that complex: Instead of spending money and time on opulent material buildings and the works of men; the church should be fighting against economic injustice and inequity of power.
Pretty much all that opulence dates back to an era when the RC had political power and chose to display it. Name anything recent built with extreme opulence that has been erected by the RC. And then look at all the "churches" built by Mormons, Baptists, etc etc. How are they any different?
It also seems you completely overlook the message that the most recent Popes have indeed conveyed to various political leaders. You may choose to think they ignore the needy, personally I think they don't.
And FWIW I am not Catholic.
Who cares? They have the volunteer labor - from people who WANT to serve the Holy See. I'm not Catholic but why is NBC attacking them for a basic tenet of religion which is service?
Are we going after the nation state of Iran because their political prisons, their torture rooms and their unpaid service? I think they would be worried about a fatwa . . .
Where is NBC's outrage against the culture of China which allows and encourages not only child labor, but slavery and human trafficking?
This is just another mainstream media anti-Christian hit piece because they know there is no risk to it.
Sexually repressed nuns are just as capable of pedophilia as a priest. See Joybubbles.
Religion serves nobody. It is social poison and destructive to progress and rational thought.
When religion finally disappears, as it inevitably will, the world will be a much kinder place. It just cannot happen quickly enough for me.
If you need proof of the evils of religion, just take a good, objective look at the world, unclouded by the absurd nonsense forced upon us from birth. It is SICK.
I believe that eight billion dollars is just a drop in the bucket of the Vaticans actual worth. Imagine what is in the vast archives and catacombs under the Vatican; knowledge that may never see the light of day and a dragon-like treasure trove.
Curious... Do you people who criticize the Catholic Church for it's material holdings realize that it is by far the most charitable international organization in the world by a significant margin? I get that it's cool to hate religion, but if you're going to get on their case with BS like "So much potential to do good; so little realization of that potential," at least do some research. If you did you might realize that they realize that potential more than any other organization in the entire world.
And don't get me wrong... Are they perfect? Far from it. Could they do more, and do it better? Certainly. Is their charity self serving in so far as it's a veiled recruitement drive? Absolutely. But the fact is, even with all these factors, they do more than anyone else. Why is it that this is so rarely recognized by the organization's detractors? And I do pose the question to you - if you were to get what I assume is your wish and the evil Catholics were to just fade into obscurity, who would you expect to fill their charitible shoes. The corporate world? Please...
and if they gave back all the Jewish gold and art taken during WW1 and WW2 they'd be worth 20 bucks.
Mark - religion isnt evil since it does nothing. it is what man has done in the name of religion to obviously justify whatever he is doing that is evil. take religion out all you want and man will just find another excuse for genocide and all the other stuff we do.
@4RealJustice: So much potential to do good; so little realization of that potential... the church should be fighting against economic injustice and inequity of power.
Know the facts before you cast stones. The Archdiocese of New York (alone) distrubuted 6,500,000+ meals in NYC in 2012. Across the planet, every diocese cares for the sick and the poor.
The RCC is one of the greatest charitable relief organizations on Earth.
Is Sister Mary Elephant from Cheech and Chong one of the operators? "SHUT UP!!!! Thank you."
Eight billion??? I thought the bible says something about modest means and that greed and gluttony are bad. Sounds like they're not giving out in proportion to what they take in or make on investments.
sure they are, as long as the receiver of their charity does what they want, otherwise they cut them off.
my-2-cents... In certain instances, yes. But in other instances, certainly not. As a non Catholic, and actually a person who considers himself agnostic, I've volunteered at a local Catholic run soup kitchen many times. They take in people of any sort, there are no sermons, no pamphlets, not even a pre-meal prayer at the soup kitchen I volunteer at. People come in, are fed, and then are free to leave. Soup kitchens like this exist all around the world. Basically, you are speaking from pure ignorance, probably with a side order of uninformed hatred. I repeat myself - I get that it's cool to hate religion, but at least try and learn a bit before you bash. Heck, try volunteering at one of their soup kitchens yourself. Odds are, there is one in whatever part of the world you live in.
Catcholic education in developing parts of the world is a different story, but simply put, is it really so terrible that you have to go through Bible studies in trade for a free education, when there is literally no alternative for you? And again, there are strings attached on significant portions of Catholic charities, but no-one else is providing these charitible functions at all. My-2-cents - are you going to suggest it's better that we close the Catholic schools in the developing world because they insist on Biblical studies, and instead leave the people they currently service with no avenue to learn things like reading, writing, and mathematics?
Steve: Good comments and observations.
I don't blame those that defend the Roman Catholic Church, I just feel sorry for them in their ignorance.
I was in a Catholic boarding school in the early 40s and saw things, including a murder of a child, that would blow your minds.
There is no way to defend the church considering its history and its present tactic of harboring known pedophiles. Sure, they have moved on from burning people alive but we cannot ignore its legacy.
bunch of crooks like politicians ... oops my mistake they are politicians
When man realizes that Religion is nothing but a bunch of bullsh*t; it will be the end of bullsh*t as we know it...life is nothing but a game of probabilities, there's no proof anything could change that...religion is just a placebo....
"Sister Ann's Suicide Helpline. Hold please....."
And why do they have money to give? Because they shame their followers into "tithing"...
Pippo - is what you experience the entire Catholic Church, or only the institution in which you attended? Though terrible things may well have happened, it is not the entire Church.
Neither are the Inquisitions, Crusades, Magdalene laundries, and so on - they are not the entire Catholic Church. These are examples in which individuals in the Church failed and people got harmed.
As for the legacy of the Church, I'd see it more in a positive light - the saints, the brave missionaries - many of whom lost their lives in the preaching of the Gospel (Isaac Joques, to name one), and many people who have done so much to help others, all part of the Catholic Church.
In this, Pippo, the Catholic Church CAN be defended. Criticized the wrong some have done, praise the good many have done.
As of yesterday's news was the claim that there were 1 billion Catholics worldwide, or restated, the faithful have $8.00 invested in the Vatican, per head. I'm not even Catholic, but one who does appreciate the art treasurers they house, and so even I as a non believer have made donations to them for the maintenance of these works, for public viewing and scholarship, but not to promote or maintain any of their religious beliefs.
The Vatican should be considered an art treasure, and managed accordingly. Many around the world, including many non Catholics would support the maintenance and preservation of such art. But the Catholics themselves must recognize, many in the church are hiding behind the artworks, just as bank robbers might hide behind innocent hostages like children. Move the Administration of the Catholic Church to an office building. The Vatican as a repository of artwork can stand and thrive on its own.
Hello folks, the Vatican has been around for a very long time and since then has been an integral part in all aspects of wealth creation and accumulation. The Vatican is the richest organization on the planet. You can not underestimate the wealth of the Vatican as they often do to downplay their political role in the manipulation of humanity and global affairs. The Vatican in conjunction with the District of Columbia and the London Financial District for all intents and purposes are the syndicates that run the entire financial and political infrastructure of our planet.
“The Catholic church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence. She is a greater possessor of material riches than any other single institution, corporation, bank, giant trust, government or state of the whole globe. The pope, as the visible ruler of this immense amassment of wealth, is consequently the richest individual of the twentieth century. No one can realistically assess how much he is worth in terms of billions of dollars.”
“The Vatican has large investments with the Rothschilds of Britain, France and America, with the Hambros Bank, with the Credit Suisse in London and Zurich. In the United States it has large investments with the JP Morgan Chase Bank, the First National Bank of New York, the Bankers Trust Company, and others. The Vatican has billions of shares in the most powerful international corporations such as Gulf Oil, Shell, General Motors, General Electric, International Business Machines, etc..”
“The Vatican’s treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars. A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest. But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment.”
The bottom line folks is this organization has been completely corrupted the same as the District of Columbia and the London Financial District. Reports are that Ratzinger was about to be arrested and still may be charged with crimes against humanity. Time will tell. The Vatican is a stark example of the opulence afforded to the elite at the expense of the middle class and poor.
Last night I watched the HBO documentary: Mea Maxima Culpa - Silence in the House of God
I regret ever setting foot in the Vatican.
I used to donate to the Catholic Relief Services, but they will never get another penny from me.
All of that "Eye of a needle thing" is irrelevant when you look at the history of Religion and the fact that Money is the root of all religion.
The Bible lays it out for all to see in the Hebrew Old Testament that the Holy Roman Empire/Church adopted as their own. when you see the joel Olsetens of the world and remember that his is a second generation business, you will know how lucrative the business of fear and faith is.
I am old enough to remember all of the Protestant TV preachers from the 70s and 80s where every sort of scam was being perpetrated on weak minded and elderly people. I once knew a woman, elderly and widowed, who gave all of the worldly holdings to a church tv preacher as she reduced herself to poverty.
I asked her why she would do that and her response was that she "could not answer for the acts of the criminal preacher, but she lived by faith." Preachers depend on this type of blind faith. The Catholic history of how the decadent popes would threaten to send people's immortal soul to hell if they opposed him. When a religion allows a person to say he is God on Earth, who is the Heretic? At this point the representative of God in Heaven becomes the God of Hell, Satan on Earth.
Money is power, this everyone knows. The more Money, the more power until the ultimate power begets corruption in order to maintain the level of power. Everyone wants it, but only a few have it. As we look at the Middle East where the greatest wealth in the world is controlled by a few "Royal" families and the poor fight and kill to survive on the streets, we see a place where idea like communist are ripe for growth. But the Holy Roman Church has a long and rich history of dealing with its enemies. The all tend to just disappear.
This concept is true and has always been true throughout history. Marie Antoinette said"Let Them Eat Cake", and eventually she was placed on the menu. "This is life" as the French say.
Lazarus
Blessed are the poor...
Yeah! Sure!
$8 Billion is a rediculously low number. Their artwork alone is easily worth 10 times that. They're lowballing it to decrease the payouts to victims.
I'm pretty sure the nuns did not sign up to kiss the Pope's feet. Probably had visions of actually helping humanity, not being slave labor for a patriarchal misogynistic Nazi jerk!
How is staffing the telephones slave labor or kissing anyone's feet. I think in order to identify the jerk all you need is a mirror.
$8 billion? The artwork alone has got to be worth way more than that!
I can't believe what I'm reading here. The RCC should own NOTHING. NO church should own ANYTHING except modest buildings in which to worship and the property they stand on. PERIOD. NO church should own jewels and real estate and artwork, etc. Are you people INSANE ??? Every penny taken in by these THIEVES and CONMEN should be going towards CHARITY. They should be wearing RAGS and eating GRUEL. What a bunch of fools. MONEY is TRULY THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL and the RCC is EVIL. I dont' care what FACADE they present to the public... they are EVIL and CORRUPT and have been since the church's inception.
Even the Bible refers to the Catholic Church as the WHORE OF BABYLON in Revelations.
8 billion my ass. More like 8 trillion. and mostly tax free, because governments across the globe are afraid to call bull@!$%#.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!
Ahhhhhh yes, I see PMSNBC and all the little limp-wristed Liberal/Progressive pagans are puffing up their chests against one of their favorite bogeymen.
Religion. Specifically the Roman Catholic Church.
Of course you never read an expose about Islam or maybe Buddhism. Where are the scathing articles and op-ed's about the horrors of the terrorism of Allah and Mohammed? I have yet to hear about a mosque helping anyone in my community. Last month one of the local Catholic churches helped remodel one of our returning servicewomen’s homes who is handicapped. And no, she doesn’t belong to their church.
Where is the outrage about the "religion of peace". Where is the 5,000 word front page article in the Washington Post about the atrocities of Mohammed like they did about Mitt Romneys "crime" of cutting some teens hair as a prank in high school? Of course we all know that the mindless pagans are just cowards because those other religions won't tolerate their secular blatherings. But they are the tolerant ones.
All the images of a crucifix in urine or a crucified Jesus with ants crawling over him are acceptable and chuckled at. So where are the same slams at Allah? Where is the ridicule of Buddha? Of course we know the atheist, agnostic, pagan cowards won't burn a Koran to protest that wonderful religion, will they? Hell, we still have an American citizen in jail for the alleged "video" he made that sparked the global riots because it mocked Islam. Yes, the claim is he was jailed for another "offense" and the useful idiots believe it. We'll never mock Buddha as long as Barrack Hussein needs to keep borrowing money for all his social and economic justice nonsense. The Liberals/Progressives will of course worship at the altar of government that helps no one as our way of life collapses.
Barrack Hussein even mocked Leviticus, Deuteronomy and the Sermon on the Mount but never mentions the atrocities we see blatantly exposed daily by the Islam “faith”. He never personally condemned the shooting of 15 year old Mala Yousufzai in the head, he just had WH press secretary, Gay Carney, issue a statement. Barrack Hussein calls the college bimbo Sandra Fluck about her hardship of having to actually pay for her contraceptives but is too much of a coward to comment about an innocent girl shot in the head by his buddies, the Taliban.
You Liberal/Progressive pagans are nothing more than loud-mouthed cowards towards anything other than Christianity. You hide behind your thin veil of secularism but demand all your moral atrocities are respected.
It’s OK, we who can have both Faith and belief will pray for you. We won’t join you in living in your darkness but we will help save you from it.
"Curious... Do you people who criticize the Catholic Church for it's material holdings realize that it is by far the most charitable international organization in the world by a significant margin?"
SteveJNB, that is the problem. They are not following the teachings the Christ gave them. If they did follow the teachings, they would not be holding 8+ billion. All of it would be used to help humanity and not be held in vaults. Their job is to be examples of the spiritual, not the material. It's hard to believe, that people with rational minds are so blind that they can't see that.
And its ridiculous to explicitly state erronenous and fact-lacking spew!....It pretty dumb when people believe everything they read! So quick to throw stones when living in a glass house! Clean in front of your door before you come to clean mine.....how many needy do you serve...how many children do you educate...how many sick do you treat!...EXACTLY!!! THERE REALLY IS NO RATIONALE!
Joemike, you obviously think that women with a religious vocation only deserve to perform menial labor. You and the Pope are obviously of the same ilk!
The number of Catholic institutions as of 2000
Parishes and missions - 408,637
Primary and secondary schools - 125,016
Universities - 1,046
Hospitals - 5,853
Orphanages - 8,695
Homes for the elderly and handicapped - 13,933
Dispensaries, leprosaries, nurseries and other institutions - 74,936
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Western_civilization#Education
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholic_hospitals_represent_26_percent_of_worlds_health_facilities_reports_pontifical_council/
http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=15629
U.S. Catholic hospitals dominate Top 100 list
Most successful cult......EVER!
Wouldn't Islam which has surpassed the RC in worldwide membership now own that title? There are an estimated 1.2B Catholics compared to 1.6B Muslims. Heck even the Hindus are approaching the number of Catholics.
The goal of a cult is longevity and the MONEY, not the Members..
So who has more money? Oil has no value? $8B would be a drop in the bucket...
The Catholic Church and Scientology have a lot of similarities.
Shot a man in Reno,
"Most successful cult......EVER!"
Technically speaking, a cult is a group that usually has a following of less than 10,000 members. So to speak of an organization that has a following of around 1.2 billion members is really stretching the definition of a cult. Neither Catholicism nor Islam can be properly classified as a cult, and especially not Islam, since a cult usually has a charismatic leader who demands complete and unquestioned loyalty. Islam has no such leader.
How about we just all agree that religion is the most successful brain washing con job ever conceived in ALL its flavors regardless of whichever fictional entity being revered.
Voter-in-LA,
"How about we just all agree that religion is the most successful brain washing con job ever conceived"
If that is so, then perhaps you can tell us who it was that conceived it? What was his name or is that just another conspiracy theory?
Mickey-
Exactly which delusional fairy tale are you referring to? You're going to have to be more specific.
Jim G.,
"Exactly which delusional fairy tale are you referring to? You're going to have to be more specific."
Why should I be more specific when Voter-in-LA to whom I was responding was not more specific? He said religion, as in religion in general.
Mickey-
Not to be personal, but like all religious people, logic doesn't appear to be your strong suit.
But the answer to your question is simple. LA made a general statement. You asked a question that requires specifics.
You, no doubt, think all religions besides yours are delusional fairy tales. Why is it so hard to understand why those who don't subscribe to yours would feel any differently?
Mickey, why would "someone" have to have created the universe? Broaden your horizons and thinking. You know sometimes $^&% just happens.
I've got no problem with people choosing to believe, but nothing will ever persuade me that organized religion hasn't always been about power and wealth at the expense of those who chose to participate in it or are coerced.
I would suggest there are also more and more people leaning this way over recent years adopting the attitude that one doesn't need a book written by humans, a building one attends once (or more) weekly, and some self-appointed representatives of a higher power, etc. to conduct ones life in a fashion that in all actuality fits in with the most basic teachings of the majority of religions.
I would also suggest that much of this "unorganized" religion has become more prominent as the distaste by those in religious entities continue to oppose the one most basic mantra: forgiveness and love for everyone. And of course a good dose of science is always relevant although I can understand those who believe that science and religion do not have to be contradictory.
All that being said, I have also nothing more than the utmost respect for nuns, missionaries, priests, etc who devote their lives in attempts to improve the lives of others around them. I don't have to agree with their beliefs to comprehend they are admirable people. And their actions have always indicated that they'll assist those regardless of whether they believe or not. Maybe more people who claim to be religious should follow their teachings rather than judge.
"Sister Ann's Sex Abuse Hotline. If you were chased around the rectory and caught by the organ, please press one. If your Cardinal wrestled you down, and put you in a "Father Nelson", please press two. If you have a lifetime aversion to soap that is not on a rope, please press three."
God I love how the non-believers feel the believers are non-logical and vice versa.
Obama's bedwetters,
The sins of the catholic church includes, but not limited to, hiding sexual predetors, the Inquisition, torturing and killing those who refused to convert, stealing land, destroying ancient texts, suppressing scientific research, covering up the use and abuse of nuns forced into prostitution, to fund churches, the murdering of nuns who had fallen pregnant, and the attempts to suppress facts about how Mother Teresa was actually a horrible person. What the Taliban and other extremist muslim groups have done, though still evil, is a drop in the bucket in comparison to what the catholic church has done.
Your average muslim wouldn't "fly commercial jets into world trade centers" any more than your average Catholic would.
Jim G.,
"You, no doubt, think all religions besides yours are delusional fairy tales. Why is it so hard to understand why those who don't subscribe to yours would feel any differently?"
I'm probably far more knowledgeable about religion than you are since I have a B.A. in philosophy and religion and have spent most of my life studying the religions of the world. That's why I'm not naive enough to think all religion is just a matter of brainwashing. I suggest you find yourself some good books on comparative religion and read them, then you wouldn't be so naive, either. If you want me to be specific, tell me who founded Hinduism or Shintoism or animism or Shamanism or any of the Native American religions? You appear to believe there is some mastermind behind religion who created it just for the sake of brainwashing people. There is the real lack of logic.
Voter-in-LA,
"Mickey, why would "someone" have to have created the universe?"
In the first place, I never said anyone created the universe, did I? But I would like to ask you two questions. Where did it come from and why is it here? Science tells us it did not always exist. It had a beginning. Hence, the Big Bang theory, which happens to be the most popular theory of its origins at the current time (there were other theories before the Big Bang theory). But where did the Big Bang come from and why did it occur and what was there, if anything, before it occurred? I would suggest that these are not questions to simply be taken for granted as having already been answered. Science is an ongoing process of discovery; not a compendium of answers to every question.
hmmmmmm........religion flies you into buildings while science flies you to Mars!!!
the queenie,
"religion flies you into buildings while science flies you to Mars!!!"
Actually, it's airplanes that fly you into buildings, and rockets that fly you to Mars. But I appreciate your sense of humor. That's why I gave you a vote.
Lowball.
Maybe $8 Billion is the value of the land Vatican city sits on, their art holdings are easily worth $80 Billion, then there's the rest of the real estate around the world (tax free), not to mention the donations which is incalculable (from the outside), but with 1.2 billion people expected to give, it's a lot. Not averaging 10% anymore but they only have to average $7 per year to hit $8 billion.
ED,
"their art holdings are easily worth $80 Billion"
That's probably true, and that's to say nothing of the many ancient manuscripts of documents such as the Codex Vaticanus manuscript of the Old Testament and other Biblical and non-Biblical manuscripts in the Vatican Library that they are the sole possessors of. Such manuscripts are priceless, really.
ED,
Correction: The Codex Vaticanus also contains the New Testament; not just the Old Testament that I indicated in my post above.
Poor reporting to have the value wrong by orders of magnitude.
Religion started out as pure superstition and fear of the unknown by primitive peoples who had no knowledge of the world around them. As man developed and became more intelligent he learned he could use that fear to control the people... and thus RELIGION was born. You will also notice that almost all religions DEMAND that its followers NEVER question anything and rely blindly on faith for fear of repercussions, torment, damnation, etc. This is their way of making sure that the SHEEP don't see the FLEECE JOB that's been done on them to keep them IGNORANT and in OBEYENCE. Organized religion has ALWAYS, since its inception been about CONTROL, POWER, GREED, WEALTH and DOMINANCE. And.... FYI... all of the Eastern "religions" you talk about are really SPIRITUAL PHILOSOPHIES which focus on peace, enlightenment, harmony with nature, etc. NO Western religions except those like Wicca and other PAGAN sects are even similar. ALL of the ABRAHAMIC religions are based in violence and dominance.
Yes, Mickey. We bow down to your superior knowledge of all things religious. As someone who never went to school and cleans porta-potties for a living, hopefully you will indulge my naivete' and grace me with your wisdom. That said, maybe you should work on your reading comprehension. I didn't say religions were a matter of brainwashing-I said they are, to not put too fine a point on it, bull@!$%#. I am only interested in truth or fiction, yet you continue to be vague. Please, share the knowledge with us ignorant people and enlighten us as to which religion is TRUE and based on FACT. It seems to me, and of course I could be wrong, but either one is true and the others false, or they are all false. Which is it?
Jim G.,
"either one is true and the others false, or they are all false. Which is it?"
Aside from your sarcasm, I think that may be your biggest problem. You are incapable of thinking except in terms of either/or. It always has to be either this or that. Try learning to think sometimes in terms of both/and or neither/nor. Those are also valid ways of thinking. Truth is not necessarily a dichotomy.
Obviously, I do take the neither/nor position. But thanks for more vagueness and BS, Mickey. Guess I should have expected it. Why don't you just admit that, even with your vast knowledge and as you look down upon the rest of us 'naive' masses, that you have nothing.
Hello Jim, how dare you question the high and almighty man that sits in the clouds and watches everything you do 24/7. You should be thankful that he has given you the choice to either adhere to 10 laws or to burn and choke and suffer and scream and cry and be tortured for all eternity!
But he loves you! And he needs money, he always needs more money. He is all powerful but just can't handle money.
Look at his resume, war, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, and corruption. If this is the best he can do, I'm not impressed. This is not the work you would expect from an almighty being. This is the work you would expect from a temporary with a really bad attitude. With these results, he should be thrown to the curb on his almighty powerful a$$!
Don't get me wrong, anybody has the right to believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Oompa Loompas, Peter Pan or any other fictional character they want to. But you don't have the right to push your beliefs on others as fact or reality!
WeAllHaveOpinions says: "God I love how the non-believers feel the believers are non-logical and vice versa."
Why do you assume that only a Catholic is a "believer" and a "Christian" and no one else qualifies?
By what, or whose authority do you make thes4 assumptions?
I am sickened by the accumulated wealth of the Vatican. So much potential to help the poor, but greed has taken over. The nuns live in poverty while the men live like kings. Much of their wealth came from the poor, but the Vatican gives little in return. Do they have no conscience? Catholics are going to wake up and see it for what it is, hopefully sooner rather than later.
Huh? Nuns and Priests alike take a vow of poverty.
But exactly WHAT is the issue with the fact the Vatican uses nuns who chose of their own volition to devote their lives to the Church in answering the phones? Is the article suggesting they should outsource their call centers to India? I'm not Catholic, but I honestly think if I was and was calling the Vatican, I'd be happier having a nun answer the call than some customer service rep center 3600 miles away.
Lovely, have you ever been to the Vatican and the museum? It's mind-boggling. It's about wealth and power and has been for centuries.
I attend a small church - we average 125 people every sunday - we are not catholic. We feed on average 30 people a week with charity.
We take that money where it does the most - we take it to the place that will turn that money directly into food - Not the Red Cross, not the Salvation Army - you guessed it Catholic Charities! (more specifically, the soup kitchen).
I've been there - there are a few latinos but not many.
Criticize all you want - you have a choice - STAY AWAY FROM CHURCH - how have they hurt you? Leave them alone
OB - you do realize that there's a difference between a (legal) immigrant and an illegal alien, right?
In either case, I'm pretty sure Jesus wanted his followers to feed and clothe the needy - he didn't say much about making sure their citizenship was legit first.
If you're really that concerned about it - why do you give money to the Church in the first place?
Thank you Mifo, I tithe every week and I have yet to be concerned with the nationality that it is feeding or clothing or providing housing to. I was taught we take care of the less fortunate, being a believer, I believe god has provided for me and I in return should help provide for the less fortunate.
Obama's Bedwetters banned, rereg of Obama Biden & Hillary Are Scum.
Thank you Tyler. He sure is persistant, with dozens of reregistrations.
As the world's largest child molesting ring it has to have deep pockets to pay lawsuits if it wants to stay in business.
Obama,
That is probably true. Marriage won't stop pedophilia.
Bedwetter, but marriage isn't an organzation that suffles its members around to avoid being caught. Nor do they tell children they will be tortured forever if they tell.
Imagine all of the good the could do with that mon ey? Instead they protect gay pedophiles.
Most pedophiles aren't gay.
Hey folks, pedophilia is NOT the same as homosexuality. Pedophiles are attracted to CHILDREN; their actions are horrendous crimes. Linking sexual orientation (either hetero- or homo-) to such a terrible act shows your ignorance and turns a blind eye to the real source of the problem.
Men who molest boys are gay pedophiles. Ones who molest girls are straight ones. The vast majority of pedophiles are attracted to one sex of children. As in, those priests would probably never go after a young girl. So yes they were gay pedophiles. This does not mean that all gays are pedophiles, or that gay pedophiles are a bigger problem, but if you are going to call someone ignorant. At least dont be ignorant yourself.
Why do you always hear about "straight" pedophiles who kidnap, rape and murder their victims, but the homosexual pedophiles seldom seem to murder little boys?
Is it just the numbers? I would assume there are a lot more hetero pedophiles than homo pedophiles, just because there are more heterosexual men than homosexual men.
pedophila and homosexuality are both mental disorders however the first is criminal and horrendous
All that needs to be said about the Catholic Church and its "modern" appeal to the masses can be summed up by comparing the Vatican's net worth -- $8 billion to the number of devout Catholics living at or below the poverty level world wide. There are worthy Christians of great moral and social merit living shoeless in the fields trying to feed a family while the Pope and the Cardinals live in ermine robes in an enormous "palace" and tell the rest of us how to be good moral Christians. It's a crock of crap in the extreme, and the main reason that I, a devout believer in the works of God, avoid organized religions like the plague. They are all run by two-faced humans whose major goal is to enrich themselves at the expense of the relgiously gullible. The Vatican and the slick televangelist in his $3000 suit have way too much in common.
boo hoo
By definition, all religion is man made.
Yes! And, please, have at least twenty five more children!
regarding the phones::::i am delighted to read that there is some place in this world that still has PEOPLE answering their phones
i would rather go have three root canals than call a company these days-----and at the top of that list is VERIZON----it is very annoying and disgusting, not to mention time consuming, frustrating, and again, not to mention having not suicidal thoughts but homicidal ones
i am not catholic and never have been----i believe in god with all my heart----but i absolutely do not believe in ANY organized religion----i think they all do way too many things in the name of god that god would never do and certainly would never condone
And yet the church is also responsible for preserving knowledge and being the catalyst that caused the founding of America and the freeing of the world.Pretty good deal
Bwaaaaaaaahaaahaahahaha!!!!
That literally made me laugh out loud! What a sheep!
Jim, I'm not a Catholic, but don't swallow your tongue laughing. Christianity was at the center of America's founding, the formation of our laws, culture and customs. "In God We Trust" is carved a foot deep on our historical buildings for a reason.
America is great. YOU can be an athiest and I can be a Christian in freedom and safety. For most of the world that is not true. There are plenty of places where I would be killed for my beliefs, and plenty of others where you would. Thank God.
The "freeing of the world?" Seriously? The peoples of the new world were enslaved while the Europeans plundered and stole everything of any value. In California there are entire valleys that are graveyards of peoples enslaved by the Catholics at their Missions. That kind of "freeing" you can keep.
Steve-
Anybody who likes dogs automatically gets some respect from me (2 boxers and a Jack Russell, currently), but I have to disagree. 'In God we trust' as a motto didn't appear until the civil war era, and not on paper currency until the 1950's. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true. (If they had the scientific evidence we now possess, it could be argued that they would not be religious at all) They were Freethinkers who relied on their reason, not their faith.In fact, the words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, Creator, Divine, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not even once. Nowhere in the Constitution is religion mentioned, except in exclusionary terms. When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had.
Of the original 'key' seven founding fathers, only John Jay can be considered an orthodox Christian. As Congress's Secretary for Foreign Affairs, he argued (unsuccessfully) for a prohibition forbidding Catholics from holding office.
As far as the 'freeing of the world' I think Pedestrian replied to that adequately.
Steve - pained1's statement was in specific reference to the Catholic Church, not all of Christianity. Yes, Columbus "discovered" the Americas in 1492 while the European world was still controlled by the Catholic Church. However, colonies in North America were not established until the 1600s, well after the Great Reformation. The Pilgrim's of Mayflower fame were fleeing religious persecution by the Anglican Church, not the Catholic Church.
Jim assuming we consider the signers of the declaration of independance whom I consider the "founding fathers" of the US then I have to disagree with you when you say they were not christian. It is well documented that most had a religious affiliation. Whether or not they truely beleived is another thing. Im not so sure why it bothers you so much that they were religious.
You are correct the God or the creator is not mentioned in the Constitution. That is mentioned in the Declaration of Independance.
They were religious but were smart enough to see what corruption can do and what is worse than a corrupt leader who can claim what he does is God's will?
Charles Carroll
Maryland
Catholic
Samuel Huntington
Connecticut
Congregationalist
Roger Sherman
Connecticut
Congregationalist
William Williams
Connecticut
Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott
Connecticut
Congregationalist
Lyman Hall
Georgia
Congregationalist
Samuel Adams
Massachusetts
Congregationalist
John Hancock
Massachusetts
Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett
New Hampshire
Congregationalist
William Whipple
New Hampshire
Congregationalist
William Ellery
Rhode Island
Congregationalist
John Adams
Massachusetts
Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine
Massachusetts
Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton
Georgia
Episcopalian
John Penn
North Carolina
Episcopalian
George Ross
Pennsylvania
Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr.
South Carolina
Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr.
South Carolina
Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton
South Carolina
Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge
South Carolina
Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee
Virginia
Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee
Virginia
Episcopalian
George Read
Delaware
Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney
Delaware
Episcopalian
Samuel Chase
Maryland
Episcopalian
William Paca
Maryland
Episcopalian
Thomas Stone
Maryland
Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry
Massachusetts
Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson
New Jersey
Episcopalian
Francis Lewis
New York
Episcopalian
Lewis Morris
New York
Episcopalian
William Hooper
North Carolina
Episcopalian
Robert Morris
Pennsylvania
Episcopalian
John Morton
Pennsylvania
Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins
Rhode Island
Episcopalian
Carter Braxton
Virginia
Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison
Virginia
Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr.
Virginia
Episcopalian
George Wythe
Virginia
Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson
Virginia
Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin
Pennsylvania
Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett
Georgia
Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson
Pennsylvania
Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes
North Carolina
Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer
Pennsylvania
Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean
Delaware
Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton
New Hampshire
Presbyterian
Abraham Clark
New Jersey
Presbyterian
John Hart
New Jersey
Presbyterian
Richard Stockton
New Jersey
Presbyterian
John Witherspoon
New Jersey
Presbyterian
William Floyd
New York
Presbyterian
Philip Livingston
New York
Presbyterian
James Smith
Pennsylvania
Presbyterian
George Taylor
Pennsylvania
Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush
Pennsylvania
Presbyterian
Jim,
Its great that you believe that myth. Many of the founders were Deists, but not even close to all. Jefferson for example, was a Christian. They wanted a separation of church and state, but many were Christian. Also, the Catholic church was the main pusher of scientific thought during the middle ages. Many of our advances has come from religious institutions. They did hinder in some instances, but they are the main driving factor before the middle class was able to come up. And Im not Catholic, nor would I ever be. I simply value the truth.
No, he wasn't. In his day he was called an atheist by Christian ministers, and they tried to block his presidency. That he's claimed as a Christian today, by Christians, is laughable. Just a FEW quotes;
"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet the one is not three, and the three are not one: to divide mankind by a single letter into ["consubstantialists and like-substantialists"]. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of factitious religion, and they would catch no more flies. We should all then, like the quakers, live without an order of priests, moralise for ourselves, follow the oracle of conscience, and say nothing about what no man can understand, nor therefore believe; for I suppose belief to be the assent of the mind to an intelligible proposition." -- Jefferson's Letter to John Adams, August 22, 1813 (He didn't believe in the Trinity)
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823(He didn't believe in the virgin birth)
"We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ."
"... I am not afraid of priests. They have tried upon me all their various batteries of pious whining, hypocritical canting, lying and slandering. I have contemplated their order from the Magi of the East to the Saints of the West and I have found no difference of character, but of more or less caution, in proportion to their information or ignorance on whom their interested duperies were to be played off. Their sway in New England is indeed formidable. No mind beyond mediocrity dares there to develop itself." - letter to Horatio Spofford, 1816
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law." -letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814
My personal favorite:
"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike-founded on fables and mythology."
.
Your grasp of 'the truth' seems tenuous, at best. And speaking of 'myths,' it seems that there isn't ONE SINGLE SHRED of actual evidence that Jesus ever even existed, let alone was the 'son of God."
Who cares what myth these men in the 1700s believed?? That doesn't lend it any validation! I'd wager that most of the Founding Fathers believed pretty strongly in the morality and legitimacy of slavery, too. A couple of centuries before that, almost all human beings believed the earth was flat. Again, it doesn't make it true or valid today.
This "Founding Father" nonsense is among the lamest of all the lame arguments Christians use to try to prop up the legitimacy of something that is, by definition, ONLY faith, a belief in something that can't be seen or proven. There's not a scrap of evidence for any of it, it's fictional, it's make-believe, it's superstition and hokum, and if rational people today elect to live their lives based on observation and rational thought and not embrace Bronze-age fairy tales, they're shouted down like heretics.
Jim G- Like boxers, not too keen on your hallucinatory description of our nation's founding. The "civil war era" was less than a lifetime after the constitution was agreed upon. The "men of the enlightenment" were mostly Christians. Yes, in their day they had scandalous views when compared to popular preachers and priests of the time. But they were merely experimenters, not avowed athiests or anything of the sort. Most of them relented or disavowed some of their younger utterances as they grew older. Yes, they lived a profligate (for the time) life. But everyone sins. They still approved the connection to god over and over in their lifetimes, their children's lifetimes. Freedom of religion doesn't condemn religion. It condemns religious tyranny. As Islam is in the process of finding out.
Money not magic keeps this organization alive. Billions of dollars settling child rape cases would have bankrupted any other business.
Think about all those older Catholics who left funds from their wills to the Church. They thought it would be for prayers for the repose of their soul and instead it was too cover the crimes of pedophiles.
And why Catholics would knowingly donate today is beyond me.
Exactly what Jesus would have wanted.....
You say the catholic religion is not a cult?? If the pope said to his followers, " The world is ending tomorrow, all those who are faithful need to end there own life today that they may enter the kingdom of heaven.". Do you know how many bodies we would be stepping over???
Not true, digger. The Pope is only believed to be "infallible" concerning matters of faith, and "faith" and church teachings do not state when the end of the world might be. Quite the opposite actually, it says we won't KNOW. Catholics have traditionally been taught to be obedient to their bishops, yes, but Catholic teachings also say that we are to be true to our CONSCIENCE, and that THAT takes precedence over orders from bishops or Pope, if those orders contradict the teachings of Jesus or the welfare of others. For this reason, many Catholics favor the ordination of women and the acceptance of gays and lesbians in the church.
Did you just say a human being was infallible?
Hans if many Roman Catholics are in favor of the ordination of women and the acceptance of gays and lesbians in the church, why don't they do what I did and join the Episcopal Church. The rites follow that of the Roman Catholic teachings with the belief of what you spoke most Roman Catholics are in favor of.
NO THEY DON'T!!! I strongly suggest you read some apologetics prior to making such wreckless and inaccurate statements! There may exist "superficial" similarities but I assure you there are immense disparities liturgically and doctrinally!
As a Catholic, I am ashamed that my Church has not allowed women to be ordained priests. Simply because a human being is female, they are not "holy enough" for the male priesthood! There were many disciples of Christ at the time of his death, male and female. Unfortunately, their names were conveniently "left out" (written out) of the Gospels. This is one of the many ridiculous rules the Church continues to maintain, along with celibacy and banning contraception use, to name just a few. If Rome is to survive into the future, they better keep up with the times and realize that people are not like sheep and need to be told what to do. The world has changed; the flock who see the hypocracy and Doctrinal lies of the Church are not playing the game any longer and leaving in droves. What did Jesus say, "See, I am doing something new."
Had Enough,
I don't believe in Christianity but I was once a practicing Christian. And for reasons that you have pointed out I began to realize how truly ridiculous the Bible is....great stories...great lessons...but not perfect.
So to your point about females not being able to become ordained priests you have to realize that the Bible speaks of women as lesser beings. Women are not to speak in church according to the Bible so if you are a believer and you follow the word of the Bible than you have to agree with the churches position on this....they are following the Bibles word.
It is easy to follow the Bible's word when you get to "pick and choose" the words. I don't follow these Bible teachings because I disagree with them: Circumcision, Not eating delicious shrimps and pork chops, I like getting a new wife every few years, so forth.
Vipp, yes, I totally agree with you that the Bible is still taken literally by so many in the world today. It is a good resource, but those who take it literally must wake up and realize that it was written by men who had a vested interest in keeping the Church under the control of men. Fast-forward to 2013 and it is those men who control the Vatican and the Catholic Church today that are fighting to keep their control over a billion-plus flock. Jesus came with a new thinking--I can't help but make a comparison between those who had the power in the ancient Church at the time of His crucifixion to those of today.
You should be ashamed of your religion, then, not your church. The Catholic church is only following the very clear words of the bible with regard to women. The bible is spectacularly misogynistic. I'm surprised the Catholics aren't still embracing slavery. The bible is pretty big on that, too.
Do you know what the role of a woman is? The church doesn't teach that women are of lesser value or equality to a man! A woman is to be cherished and loved...as Christ loved His church; The Church is His Bride!....This country is seriously like the twilight zone...It's ingrained and indoctrined in you ALL to implement and exemplify SELF IMPOSED-VICTIMIZATION!... Woe is me!...i'm black and I want an acre and a mule! Woe is me I'm a woman and even though i can't lift as much as a man I should get hired for the same job and you should pay me equally for less work! Woe is me ..why can't women be preists! Shut up be the woman God made you to be and let me love and cherish you as Christ did His church....unto death! How is it that there are so many so called cradle Catholics that don't know why they practive what they do or profess what they believe! There are too many people just saying WORDS...and not looking at the depth of what leaves their lips! there is power in the tongue....but in some instances no power just stupidity and even ingnorance! PICK UP YOU CATECHISM AND READ IT AND LEARN ABOUT YOUR FAITH!....
NBC backs the Muslim Prez and his followers and has to lambast the Pope and his followers
most of them are drunks on TV, anchors and all....they are all full of crap and hate listening to them morons....who think they are the righteous group of A.H.s
Lou,
Clearly Obama isn't a Muslim...no matter how hard you try to convince yourself of it. I know that's what you want to believe but understand that you believe in a lie...if you are comfortable with that than so be it.
Personally I think all religions are ridiculous.
Lou - which story did you read? I actually found this one to be pretty good (unusual for this site). They presented a lot of detail and multiple sides to various issues. Nowhere did I see the story "lambast the Pope and his followers".
[Now the comments are quite the opposite. But you have to expect the crazies and haters to come out on ANY story ever published here. I'm actually surprised we've gotten this far into it without someone trying to inject gun control or dems/repubs into it.]
LOL! Actually: I take that last part back. You brought the pres into a story about the Vatican. Sad.
The stupid Catholics who continue to worship Mary and not Jesus are to blame for the current sad state of affairs. And the Irish Catholics are the worst.... don't even get me started on those damn Irish Catholics.
Joe just a minor point. Catholics do not worship Mary they honor her there is a difference.
I am not a Catholic but what is wrong with worshiping Mary? The Bible says the Lord your God is One God. It doesn't not say God is a Jesus, a Holy ghost, or is divided in any way. Strictly speaking worship God alone, not a trinity of Gods.
The Virgin Mary is a form of God from when we knew that God had to be a woman. This belief came from times before Jews, Christians, or Muslims. Christianity is a corruption of Judaism and Catholicism is a corruption and commercialization of Christianity.
Be careful. Bing Crosby is watching...
Joe you must be of the protestant faith, I have never worshiped Mary, I have paid her due homage. After all she was the mother of Jesus. Go spewing your stupidity and every Roman Catholic will look at you in a stupid stare and laugh at you when you leave.
There is NOTHING in the bible.. ANYWHERE that commands any homage to Mary (or anyone else for that matter )and in fact she is barely mentioned at all. The RCC violates the tenets of the bible in many, many ways ... idolatry, repetitive prayer, reciting the rosary, venerating Mary, Saints, the Pope, etc. The bible FORBIDS all of these.
Plus they invented this whole notion that you can't pray directly to their imaginary god. You must go through a priest and spill all your innermost secrets to him. I'm sure plenty of priests got some serious jollies out of their time in the confessional each week.
The bible also COMMANDS that you pray DIRECTLY TO GOD .... there IS no 'intermediary'. Again...the use of intermediaries is to keep"control" by fear and guilt and penances.
Well, good for the Vatican. I abhor all forms of organized religion and consider them as the source of most of the evils on the earth, right up there with automated phone systems. I am convinced that the high rate of veteran suicides is directly attritubutable to the frustration we experience every time we try to get thru to anyone at the VA! Where's a @!$%#ing drone when you need one?
I'm with ya at least on the VA over the past four years brother. People just don't know what has gone on with that organization beneath all the Obama warm and fuzzy I love the military and veterans crap he puts out. The VA has lost its function, and the Obama machine is trying to push care for veterans onto private charity organizations. Really sad, and just plain wrong.
maybe you should join NBC.....or are you one of the immigrants they talk about
Who are you talking to?
Religion is the idea that my God is true and yours isn't, that I'll live forever and you won't, and that I shouldn't have had sex.
And that you should give me money. You mustn't forget that part.
What I wonder is... How did they obtain some of the artifacts that they have?
NBC.... you have to be kidding. So far left of nowhere in your headlines and articles its getting to be like reading the script to a comedy sitcom. And most sad, people fall into this subliminal game of social mind control you and the dems promote with every word. Very sad.
Can you please explain, then - what is it in this article (or headline) you take offense with? What democrat agenda is it pushing?
I'm honestly curious - not trying to be confrontational. I thought the article was relatively balanced and surprisingly full of interesting information, quotes, and facts. I didn't see it "bashing the church" or promoting it. There is no shortage of stories that are completely slanted, devoid of ANY information, or just plain silly - but this one actually seemed to have some research invested it in.
Or maybe I'm a victim of the mind control you're talking about. LOL!
Mifo... I understand that you are believing that someone is going to read your little comment and somehow you will prove superior. But, I think pretty much everyone knows that NBC is completely in bed with the Obama administration, and that Obama, like other power hungry loons of the past has taken aim specifically at the Catholic church. I think people are generally bright enough to see a nonsense article with a headline about nuns having to run the switchboard, and all the poor impoverished people who have to cross the road into dirty old Rome is pretty well slanted with its inclusive subliminal undertones. There was no objectivity, no facts relating to anything of importance, no mention of how the church functions, or what it does. No mention of the fact that the Vatican is not a part of Rome, or Italy at all to correct peoples assumptions after reading the article. Nothing, nada. People do see that, and they don't see you as being the all knowing one as you would like to think in your own world people believe. Sorry.
Wow. I was actually trying to ask a serious question - not prove myself superior or all knowing. The whole point of me asking the question is that I don't know. Thanks for explaining your position without your persecution complex. I'm not a catholic, or anti-catholic - but I am interested and curious about the church and the opinions of its members.
Every day, I read comments on stories - hoping to see or hear a different perspective, to learn something, to have insight into others' beliefs or values. Every day I'm disappointed.
hmmm... sorry about that. ok, one little tid bit in the big puzzle. If you back track all through history for the past couple thousand years, and really even before... the world keeps popping up putting their lives in the hands of some power hungry, or some person looking for personal gain. These folks are generally kind of nutty and believe they have all the answers and they seek to control other people... power. So, here you have some person passing out goodies in exchange for hearts and minds to do their bidding. But, on the other hand you have this religion that simply says follow a few simple rules and life can be good, and by the way love, charity, humility... these are good things, and ya all got free will to do whatever you like you make the decision for yourselves. So, the power people have to shut that crap down to gain control, but you really can't just destroy the religion because ... its been tried... doesn't work well at all as people mostly hold onto inner faith over government control. So, they do what they have to in an attempt to push the church aside and into the background, and to change its ways to be more in line with the power leaders thinking. Of course the church stands on itself and does not change, which is like a slap in the face to the person who wants to become all powerful. So, they start fighting with the church (not always physically), and all the followers of the dictator see the church as slapping them in the face also as they have placed their lives and future in the hands of the dictatorial regimes. And so it goes, the powerful person takes greater control, people fall into a dark state, things go haywire, it all eventually fizzles, the government or society collapses on itself... and the church is still there to pick up the people with all that love, charity, humility, free will, follow a few simple rules and life will be good stuff.... then it all starts again after people forget. Just a little piece of the puzzle.
Thanks, GYI. Like I said, I'm not catholic - but it is a fascinating institution. Like you say in your post, it's survived for so long - through so much - it's truly amazing. Emperors, wars, kings, queens, dictators, plagues - it has endured. I found this story to be really interesting because it lifts the curtain a bit and shows some of the non-theological day-to-day issues that have to be dealt with; things nobody really ever gives a second thought.
At the end of the day, any church or institution run by men (and women) - so of course there will be problems, politics, failures, scandals, etc - but overall, I believe the good out-does the bad.
As a cradle Catholic, I can tell you the Vatican is in the same condition as the "Carnival Triumph" and that's being generous. Our leadership is, has been, and always will be corrupt unless there is real reform. I applaud all those Catholics who do care and work to improve the conditions of their fellow humans. As well as the priests and nuns who work 24/7 to serve their fellow believers. The hierarchy has the mistaken impression that it exists to be served by the Body as opposed to their serving the Body of the Church, we the laity.
If you get the politics out of religion, there might be a chance to save it as is the case with all philosophical belief systems. Islam is very violent and narrow-minded. On the surface, all major religions are anti-female; probably because some of the early religions were female dominated when people worshiped "goddesses" things were also more peaceful as well.
We can only hope a new John XXIII emerges from the conclave; however, unless it's Cardinal Peter Turkson don't think this will happen.
The Catholic church is so frugal that they've even used slave labor in Ireland.
Not true, go read the facts. And then come back and make an apology. Yep, I am familiar with the entire situation there. So, get it right..... good luck.
At least the Irish government finally admitted that they helped the Catholic church keep tens of thousands of women as slave labor. Too bad they haven't fully apologized to the victims or their families yet.....
Estimates are that up to 30,000 woman were kept as slave labor by the Catholic church. That's a great way to cut down on expenses.......just don't pay the help, and keep them in chains.
More here:
That's what happens when you use the government to enforce Catholic sharia law.
No, sorry, this is not true. You are perpetuating... go find the facts..... and don't type that I should paste them into a comment for you .... that would be the same as you are doing. Go find the truth. Have a nice day.
Sounds like Catholics like "Gofigureit" have learned from their church how to live in denial.
Rather than burying your head in the sand you could simply read the official government report which documents the white slavery ring which the Catholic church ran with the help of the Irish government.
http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/MagdalenRpt2013
No, you still haven't gone and found the truth. Its not me in denial. You simply don't want the truth, just ranting and twisting circumstance and words. But thats ok.... keep living in your own world.
Gofigureit.... are you retarded or just grossly ignorant and in denial. You don't believe it ? WTF? There's PROOF.. DOCUMENTENTED EVIDENCE, EYE WITNESSES and VICTIMS you moron.
Wow, delusion and denial in equal measure. That's any religion's dream guy, right there. He'll even through in an irrational persecution complex for free.
The Catholic church far outpaces the rest of the world year after year in charitable works, enhancing the economies of failing nations, and giving to scientific and medical research. No other organization or government on earth comes close. And FYI, the Vatican is independent and not part of Rome, Italy, or any other country.
The harm they do is immeasurable (anti-science, anti-women's rights, anti-healthcare, political shenanigans, not to mention the mental abuse of teaching children there is a place that isn't comfortable where people go who disappoint Yahweh).
But basically you seem to be saying if the Church disappeared good works would vanish. Nonsense. Utter nonsense.
Ah, here it comes. The unjustifiable slanted argument from nowhere. Of course the self perpetuating endless road to assumption. Just to touch on your last line. I didn't type those things. You want yourself and others to assume I did. That seems to be your way of wandering through life. But that's ok. Never can understand why people such as yourself can harbor such hate and contempt for something that does not have an effect on your life, and something which you have little knowledge or understanding of although I suppose it is probably that inner guilt thing you have going on in your life. Thats ok, let it out. I don't have any hate or contempt for you. Have a nice day.
Yes, I am angry at priests who rape deaf babies and don't get defrocked by their so-called holy bosses.
Silly me, right? See here, I have put in for a work order to stop the planet next week, feel free to exit if you don't see anything wrong with my anger.
Yeah, that Father Murphy was a real charmer, wasn't he? He raped at least 200 deaf boys, many of whom were so disabled that they were unable to articulate the horrors they experienced.
And the Catholic church never once called the cops, and never defrocked the scumbag. Ratzinger simply helped cover up the crimes to avoid embarrassing the church, just like he did in numerous other cases.
Atheist, anger regarding priest-pedophiles and cover ups is totally acceptable, but that isn't what you're primarily angry at. You're an atheist who's angry at religion, period. Negative examples of "religious" people justify your "position", and you seize on those examples and totally dismiss the good that religion has done and is doing. Even I, as a Christian, will say that there are good people in the world who are atheist. You however focus on entire groups of people and see only what you want to see regarding them.
....don't hold your breath waiting for an atheist to improve the lot of man in the world...they are basically only concerned with themselves...
Hans,
May I suggest prayerful silence meditating on the debate fallacy called a straw man argument? Or in your case, a straw army?
nycguy... you're a fool. You know absolutely NOTHING about Atheism. Religion doesn't have the corner on morals, values, charity or anything else that is the result of pure human nature. Most Atheists are better "christians" than those who falsely profess to be Christians. So put a sock in it. Atheism is nothing more than "not believing" in false/mythical/supernatural/magical deities. PERIOD.
YOU are also an ATHEIST as you do not believe in any of the other gods of other religions. EVERYONE is born an ATHEIST until they are brainwashed and indoctrinated into the "family religion" where they have no option or opportunity to examine, explore or weigh any of the information that is forcefed them while they are unable to comprehend any of it or it's consequences. The only difference between YOU and ME is that I believe in ONE LESS GOD THAN YOU DO.
Probably wasting your breath, gemini, though what you say is quite true.
Religious folks like to pretend atheism is somehow a religion itself; that it takes the same measure of faith not to believe in a god than it does to believe in one. It's completely illogical (which is probably why it finds so much favor with religiously minded people). It's like saying that not collecting stamps is a hobby every bit as much as stamp collecting. The incongruity is startling in its clarity, yet they just refuse to see it.
.....like atheists refuse to believe there is a God......even though all of nature surrounding us gives us faith that there must be....
LMAO...that has to be the most ASININE reasoning for "proof" of a god that I've ever heard in my entire life. I happen to be a PANTHEIST buddy .... the wonders and miracles of NATURE and the UNIVERSE have NOTHING to do with superstition and imaginary friends.
LMAO.....neither God nor I need to "prove" anything to you, Skippy.....you have a "right" to believe in nothing....good luck with that....
They're so behind the times... even nuns in America separate themselves from these morons stuck in the 1800's. They have to change with the times or risk losing what they have.
Stuck in the 1800's? Too funny. Risk losing what they have? Don't want to dismiss your capability for rational thought here but.... they aren't a corporation, and they aren't running for President. Sorry.
Maybe the nuns aren't but the VATICAN is indeed a CORPORATION as is the MORMON CHURCH. The two most powerful and corrupt corporations on this planet.
I think I'd put Halliburton on that list ahead of the Mormon Church. The RCC definitely takes the top spot, though, can't argue with you there. :)
No seriously... the Mormon Church is the 2nd most powerful corporation in the world ( ex-church member here ). You would be flabberghasted to know how much they're worth, what they own and control etc. That's why it was such a big deal for Romney to run for POTUS. They have "moles" EVERYWHERE in gov't. Did you realize that the LDS Church owns virutally 80% of all the media outlets in this country... news, radio, tv, etc ? That's why it makes me laugh my ass off when these Teapublitards talk about the "liberal" media. The media is 100% CONSERVATIVE OWNED....by the LDS Church and Rupert Murdoch.
Nuns do not have to answer phones. That is their choice. They can demand higher pay and the papacy. There is no reason that a woman cannot become a pope.
We have female queens and nations that did not crumble under their reign.
Same here.
Apparently some of the popes have been "queens".
Oh my, what ever are we going to do?
I don't know. Maybe if we all give more money...