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Subscribe to RSSAn Italian TV comedian and blogger, Beppe Grillo, has reached 25 percent of the vote -- more than Silvio Berlusconi and double the vote of the present Prime Minister Mario Monti. ITV's James Mates reports from Rome.
ROME — Italy faced political paralysis Monday as near-complete results in crucial national elections showed no clear front-runner and raised the possibility of a hung parliament. The uncertainty bodes ill for the nation's efforts to pass the tough reforms it needs to snuff out its economic crisis and reassure jittery markets.
The chaotic election scenes in the eurozone's third-biggest economy spilled across the Atlantic to send the Dow Jones index plunging more than 200 points in its sharpest drop since November.
A major factor in the murky result was the astonishing vote haul of comic-turned-political leader Beppe Grillo, whose 5 Star Movement has capitalized on a wave of voter disgust with the ruling political class.
That has coupled with the surprise return as a political force of billionaire media mogul Silvio Berlusconi, who was driven from the premiership at the end of 2011, to roil the Italian ballot. Berlusconi's alliance appeared neck-and-neck with center-left leader Pier Luigi Bersani's alliance for both Parliament's lower house and the Senate.
The decisions Italy's government makes over the next several months promise to have a deep impact on whether Europe can decisively stem its financial crisis. As the eurozone's third-largest economy, its problems can rattle market confidence in the whole bloc and analysts have worried it could fall back into old spending habits.
The unfolding uncertainty raised the possibility of new elections in the coming months, the worst possible outcome for markets that are looking to Italy to stay the course with painful but necessary reform.
Antonio Calanni / AP
Former Premier Silvio Berlusconi exits a booth as he votes in a polling station in Milan, Sunday.
While Italy's postwar history has largely been one of revolving-door governments, it has never seen a hung parliament. Experts said that's likely to change now.
"This has never happened before," said James Walston, a political science professor at American University of Rome. He predicted such a swirl of political chaos that new elections may need to be called as soon as the new legislature chooses the nation's next president this spring.
The Italian election has been one of the most fluid in the last two decades thanks to the emergence of Grillo's 5 Star Movement, which has throbbed with anger at politics as usual. The movement came against a backdrop of harsh austerity measures imposed by technocrat Premier Mario Monti — who has fared miserably in the elections.
Many eligible voters didn't cast ballots, and a low turnout is generally seen as penalizing established parties. The turnout, at under 75 percent — in a nation where it has historically been above 80 percent -- was the lowest in national elections since the republic was formed after World War II.
Disgust with traditional party politics likely turned off voters, although snow and rain — this was Italy's first winter time national vote — also could be a factor.
The decisions Italy's government makes over the next several months promise to have a deep impact on whether Europe can decisively stem its financial crisis. As the eurozone's third-largest economy, its problems can rattle market confidence in the whole bloc and analysts have worried it could fall back into old spending habits.
Bersani, a former communist, has reform credentials as the architect of a series of liberalization measures and has shown a willingness to join with Monti, if necessary. But he could be hamstrung by the more left-wing of his party.
His party would have to win both houses to form a stable government, and given the uncertainty of possible alliances, a clear picture of prospects for a new Italian government could take days. It is all but impossible that Bersani would team up in a "grand coalition" with his arch-enemy Berlusconi.
Grillo's camp also played down the prospect of cooperation with the ex-premier, who has been embroiled in sex and corruption scandals.
"Dialogue with Berlusconi? It is very difficult to imagine that Berlusconi would propose useful ideas (for the movement)," said 5 Star Movement candidate Alessandro Di Battista at Rome headquarters. "It never happened until now, but miracles happen."
Key indicator slides
Italy's borrowing costs have reflected the optimism that the country will stick to its reform plans.
The interest rate on Italy's 10-year bonds, an indicator of investor confidence in a country's ability to manage its debt, fell to 4.19 percent in afternoon trading Monday. Last summer, at the height of concern over Italy's economy, that interest rate was hovering at about 6.36 percent.
Milan's stock exchange closed slightly higher, with the benchmark FTSE MIB up 0.73 percent to 16,351 points.
With ballots from about 98 percent of polling stations counted in Senate races, Interior Ministry figures showed Bersani and his allies had 31.69 percent while Berlusconi and his coalition partners were pulling 30.65 percent. Grillo had 23.77 percent.
Paolo Bona / Reuters
Pier Luigi Bersani, seen on Sunday with his wife Daniela and his daughters Elisa and Margherita at a polling station in Piacenza, Italy.
More important than the overall national numbers, however, was the state-of-play in large swing regions -- and Berlusconi was projected to win those.
Italy's complex electoral law calls for the Senate seats to be divvied up according to how candidates fare region by region, and Berlusconi appeared to be winning big in Lombardy, and also ahead in the closely watched regions of Sicily and Campania, around Naples.
A Berlusconi triumph in those key regions would likely hand him control of the upper chamber, which in Italy's legislative system is as powerful as the lower house.
When Berlusconi was forced out of office in November 2011, he was widely assumed to have joined the political dead. At 76, blamed for mismanaging the economy and disgraced by criminal allegations of sex with an underage prostitute, a comeback seemed impossible.
But one thing has become axiomatic about Berlusconi in his 20 years at the center of Italian politics: Never count him out.
This time around, in an age of wrenching austerity, he had a very simple campaign strategy: throw around the cash.
Berlusconi has promised to give back an unpopular property tax imposed by Monti — with money from his own deep pockets, if need be.
Even his purchase of star striker Mario Balotelli for his AC Milan soccer team was widely seen as a ploy to buy votes. Berlusconi has also appealed to Italy's right-wing by praising Italy's former fascist dictator Benito Mussolini during a ceremony commemorating Holocaust victims.
"He played a very able game," said Walston. "Considering that he didn't fulfill his previous promises, it's extraordinary."
With near complete results, Bersani had a tiny edge in the lower chamber, where electoral law enables the biggest vote-getter there to end up with a bonus of more than 50 percent of the seats.
Monti's centrist coalition was having a terrible election, with his alliance getting roughly 10 percent. Although respected abroad for his measures that helped stave off Italy's debt crisis, the economist has widely been blamed for financial suffering caused by austerity cuts.
Analysts saw two big stories in Italy's election.
"The first is the big surprising increase scored by the 5 Star Movement, and the other is the disappointing result" of Monti's coalition, said Massimo Franco, a columnist with Corriere della Sera.
Berlusconi vows tax break
Berlusconi, who was forced from office in November 2011 by the debt crisis, has sought to close the gap by promising to reimburse an unpopular tax — a tactic that brought him within a hair's breadth of winning the 2006 election. The billionaire media mogul only a few days ago told voters if need be, he'd reimburse the tax to them by shelling out from his own pocket to the tune of several billion euros (dollars).
Grillo's forces are the greatest unknown. His protest movement against the entrenched political class has gained in strength following a series of corporate scandals that only seemed to confirm the worst about Italy's establishment. If his self-styled political "tsunami" sweeps into Parliament with a big chunk of seats, Italy could be in store for a prolonged period of political confusion that would spook the markets. He himself won't hold any office, due to a manslaughter conviction.
"Italy has developed a two-bloc system. We now have a three bloc system!" Walston said, referring to Grillo's shock success.
"That might work in a country like Austria, or like Germany" where there aren't such marked differences between coalitions. But in Italy, he said, "the personal, policy and ideological differences are too big."
Most analysts believe Bersani would seek an alliance with center-right Monti to secure a stable government, assuming parties gathered under Monti's centrist banner gain enough votes.
While left-leaning Bersani has found much in common with Monti, a large part of his party's base is considerably further to the left and could rebel.
A key Monti ally called the result "totally negative" and had an even gloomier assessment for his nation.
"As far as Italy goes," said Gianfranco Fini, "I fear the worst is yet to come."
Polls: Cigar-chomping former communist will be Italy's next leader
Pope's resignation could thwart Berlusconi comeback
This story was originally published on Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:46 AM EST
Leave a Comment:
So the Italians like their free stuff paid for by the hard work of others just like Obama's homeys.
We need more free stuff. That is how you get an economy moving. Just ask Obama.
The Italians have had enough of the austerity being forced on them. The U.S. should take notice that austerity doesn't work.
I supported Obama, I'm self employed, I work hard every day, and I don't receive any help from the government. So why do you say people like me like free stuff paid by hard workers" like Obama homeys" ?
Free? Hardly. Taxes are fairly high. But we do like the fact that no one has to declare bankruptcy because medical bills are unaffordable and that elderly people can eat occasionally on their pensions, that schools can be affordable and so on. Italy has many problems, but its people - of which I am one - understand that we have to help each other.
Yes that is exactly right. I am Italian and i can tell you first hand that Italy's economy has always been horrible compared to ours - until Obama that is. But anyway, this is insulting to Italians but they all want to relax all day and drink wine and shoot the breeze rather than work. When my relatives came over here, they couldn't beleve the difference in the standard of living and how much Americans work compared to Italians. Of course, now with Obama in office we are sadly heading down the same road.
Hey ladolce, i am Italian American and i can tell you for a fact your health care absolutely sucks compared to ours. I can't tell you how many of my relatives have gone over there for vacation and have practically died because of the poor medical treatment they received for things that weren't very complicated. They were so grateful to get back here so they could get properly treated and get better.
Yeah, their healthcare sucks... Perhaps that's why they also have a much longer life expectancy than we do.
Looks like this ad dog changed names...still a butthole.
Yeah, there wasn't a recession or anything. It was Obama who wrecked the economy, not the biggest global economic downturn in 80 years, right?
And they have the nerve to call Democrats low-information voters.
"The chaotic election scenes in the eurozone's third-biggest economy spilled across the Atlantic to send the Dow Jones index plunging more than 200 points in its sharpest drop since November."
What happens in Italy does impact the US.
With sanctions on Iranian oil, oil prices which was around $40 in 2009 has crossed $110 now.
Everyone is ignoring that Iranians can easily get/buy nukes from Pakis. As a matter of fact, Pakis sold nuke technology to Iran, N. Korea and Libya’s Gadhaffi.
If Iraqi wars gave us PIIGS, there will more nations added to PIIGS due to sanctions on Iranian oil.
IRAQ WARS
Net results of Saudi, Kuwait, UAE, oil companies and their lobbyists directed 1991 and 2003 Iraqi wars are
WINNERS
1. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE and other rich ME sharks became richer by manipulating oil prices too high.
2. Oil companies and their lobbyists also benefitted. Oil prices, which were hardly $30 a barrel before 1991, shot up to $140 a barrel.
3. Since 2003, future traders, rating agencies, Wall Street and oil companies and their lobbyists transferred five trillion dollars from oil importing countries to oil exporting nations.
4. Rich Sunni ME sharks (Saudi Arabia in particular) funded Salaffi and Wahhabi mosques and Islamic radicals and terrorists all over the world. These Sunni Islamic radicals and terrorists are rampaging all over the world. World’s 80 percent of problems are due to them.
LOSERS
1. General US and European nations’ public. There have been high unemployment, cut in welfare measures, housing market collapse and more miseries. Since 2001, US spent three trillion dollars on Iraq and Afghan wars. Did the Saudis and co foot the bill?
2. Poor soldiers killed and injured and their families. In Iraq and Afghan wars 6300 soldiers were killed and 40000 injured.
3. High budget deficits and heavier borrowing. Many nations (PIIGS) and people are on line to bankruptcy!
4. Iraq will plunge into bloody sectarian civil wars leading to the creation of Shiastan, Sunnistan and Kurdistan. Here the losses are of Iraqis.
You paid posters who post this nonsense are as stupid as your last presidential candidate who got beat cause he actually poted this stupid free stuff fantasy. get a life learn something and stop posting your lies. You are the reason Obama got reelected and we thnak you for it but now move on.
For rhcrest
For rhcrest
Where are your relatives from, a little fisherman town in Sicily, to be so used to such “slow life”? I think you are just exaggerating because not even in south Italy, where life is slower in comparison to north, people is like you describe. And tell, if Italians are so lazy, if they don’t like to work and want only to drink wine, how is it possible that in only 30 years Italy turned from poor and bombed country into an industrial power? How is it possible that until 1990 it was the 2° economy in Europe? How is it possible that in Vicenza ( a town near Venice) there are steelworks even bigger than in Germany? How is it possible that during 80es in Veneto a 1 citizen every 10 owned his little company? How is it possible that Leonardo del Vecchio, starting from his little laboratory of glasses, now he is the owner of Luxottica corporation which own Ray-Ban and Oakley too? How all that is it possible if Italians are so lazy and don’t want to work? I got it: all of them won the national lottery. And how is it possible that my father, a simple painter born on 1938, who had his first bicycle when he was 20 and his first car when he was 28, when he was 35 he got a big house, then a sea side house and 3 cars, without working hard? Of course, he won the lottery. And tell me, how is it possible that my sister ruined her arms working in a factory, if she doesn’t work hard as she is Italian? Have you ever been in Milan and see how people go fast? Do it before to talk for stereotypes. There is only a difference between us and you: when we finish to work we really like to enjoy life, and we have more holiday than you. I mean, we in Europe, not only in Italy, and guess, British and Germans have even more free days than us, and are more productive than you, because they have understood that human beings have a limit, so if you let them to relax sometime, then they work better, something you still haven’t understood. By the way, I understand you want to justify the decision your parents took, and surely they took the right one, but to talk ill of the country they come from, just to say “you see? They were right”, it is a cowardice.
"Sky had the center-left - led by cigar-chomping former Communist Pier Luigi Bersani"
What is 'center' or "moderate' about a communist? One thing that is consistent with the left is the fact that they like to package their beliefs as moderate. I'm sorry, but there is nothing 'center-left' about a self-avowed communist.
Because we actually read and learn about various political philosophies, and are not scared by the propaganda. Many people in the U.S. have no idea of what communism is or what it proposes, nor have they ever read its philosophies. This is not to say that they are perfect or even right for Italy or any country, but at least we are aware of what they are, instead of relying on propaganda.
Additionally, the left-right line in Italy is much further left than in the U.S. This means that a right-leaning person would often be considered a liberal in the U.S.
One of the most rabid communists I ever met was my local parish priest. Though we were not Catholic or religious, he'd come by and say hello every other Sunday afternoon, staying for a glass of red wine and talking about religion, politics and so on. He was a wonderful man who dedicated most of his time to help those in need and often criticized his own church hierarchy for its dedication to wealth and power, instead of charity, helping the poor and hungry, etc.
Chris - I think you missed an important word there. Do you know what "former" means?
All I see when I read this is that you have no grasp of civics, political philosophy or of modern history. Most countries have more than 2 political parties, for starters. The Italian communist party dates back to the 20s. They were outlawed by the fascists (hard right), and were instrumental in taking down the then-dictator Mussolini and joining the allies, and in the liberation of the country and restoring the King and democracy to Italy... and then in removing the King from power after the war instead of during it.
Then, as you should know through your American experience, political parties also can change course. The US Progressive Party was founded by Republicans... for example. Today, the Republican party stands in stark contrast to Progressivism... Anyway, over the next 40 years post-war, the communist party pulled right, and eventually became a progressive party in the late 80s... you know, when someone like Bersani would've had power within it and been a member. It then split into 2 parties, the new communist party, and the Democrats of the Left... Bersani joined the latter. The Democrats of the Left and the Daisy (centrists) being the main drivers, along with the Christian Democrats and European Republicans, merged and created the Italian Democratic Party...
Bullet tooth, fascism is a leftist ideology . It is only to the right of Communism because the means of production is still owned privately but it still falls under the left side of political ideologies. That is a common misconception that is it an ideology of the right. It is not
I don't actually think it's a misconception that fascism is a rightist ideology. I'm pretty sure that most people who label people as fascists don't actually know or care that it's an actual, established political movement with specific policies and goals. They just know it's associated with Hitler and so it becomes their go-to label for political opponents.
Also, Chris, Bersani is a FORMER Communist. That means, and I'm going to speak technically here, he is no longer a Communist. He has already had a stint in power where he actually pursued market-friendly reforms to the economy; not really a priority for many leftists, much less Communists, so its understandable why the markets were looking forward to him coming into power.
rhcrest -
"Bullet tooth, fascism is a leftist ideology"
From Concise encyclopedia: Fascism - "Philosophy of government that stresses the primacy and glory of the state, unquestioning obedience to its leader, subordination of the individual will to the state's authority, and harsh suppression of dissent. Martial virtues are celebrated, while liberal and democratic values are disparaged. Fascism arose during the 1920s and '30s partly out of fear of the rising power of the working classes; it differed from contemporary communism (as practiced under Joseph Stalin) by its protection of business and landowning elites and its preservation of class systems."
While there are certainly leftist ideologies that are destructive, even as there are conservative ideologies that are destructive, it is important that we properly define them as extreme regardless of left or right. It would be nice not to confuse them however.
rhcrest: Unfortunately for you, words do not mean whatever you want them to mean.
It is progressives that stresses the primacy and glory of the state over the individual, unquestioning obedience to Obama, siubornation of the individual will to the states authority, and harsh suppression of dissent.
I could fill paragraphs with examples of each. Needless to say it's not conservatives that are trying to control every facet of your life, it's progressives.
Why are haters the first to reply to articles? If you've got so much energy, fix things yourself.
Normally Fiesty Redhead is the first to post. A lot of energy in hate with that one. Surprised I did not see her here.
Maybe she didn't want to trade jibes with a cracker like you?
we will give you obama for a good pizza
Wow...what choices. A former (?) Communist , and an old prior Prime Minister who is quite possibly going to PRISON and is a 'ho-monger of underage girls. Kinda like running Obozo and New Jersey Senator Menendez as opponebts for the office of POTUS isn't it?????
Well, there is the third guy evidently, but it seems like the Italians don't really take him seriously.
Wow, a smaller, untested party with new ideas that can't make it because it lacks the established political networks and advantages of the main two parties? Maybe we're not so different after all, us and them.
Libertarian fo' life.
What was it I posted but just a few days ago that I recall being called out for for making "random claims?"
And to illustrate my prediction from last week, this moment's likely results for the Senate:
Hey, when you're right, you're right.
But in all fairness, your claims were pretty poorly supported as compared to the article, which was based on an actual poll.
You woudl think that the Italians would have learned their lesson after Mussolini. Sadly it appears that isn't the case. I am Italian American and i am ashamed at the country of my parent's birth. My parents came here as immigrants and worked their butts off because there was no opportunity in Italy. I can't believe i am related to such lazy sloths as the Italians back in Italy.
Under Mussolini people had to actually work and services ran on time. If you're complaining how "lazy Italians are now" it's a contradiction to your throw-away Mussolini line. There is still no opportunity in Italy and it won't change until they learn how to VOTE and vote for a stable government coalition. Going back and forth is not conducive for long-term change of policy.
Deo -
Look up "Mussolini propaganda." Oh, what, you have your degree in Mussolini progaganda? My bad.
Going back and forth isn't the problem. The problem seems to be that Italy is constantly going back... to the same guy who drove the country into the ditch in the first place.
hardly propoganda. The idea that Mussolini was "100 baaaaad" is ignorant. He was certainly right about the problem with Italy being Italians themselves.
SF Accountant: I don't disagree with you, Italy has gone backwards. But again, I blame the population more than the people who can too easily manipulate them. Come live here a few years....shady ideas, shortcuts through life, hiding taxes, general "furbo" behavior is the norm. People cry and whine that jobs only come via "favors", which is true...but the same people would kill their nonna to get a job via "favors." This is not a problem created by Silvio Berlusconi, it's ingrained. Hopefully the younger people will keep up with 5-Stelle for the future, not just a flash-in-the-pan.
I'm glad your parents left Italy, because we would feel ashamed to have a citizen like you. If we are sloths as you say, you should explain why my country, which was completely destroyed after W.W. II, in only 30 years became the 5th industrial power in the world, one of the best welfare in the world, at least in North Italy. Probably you belong to those south italians who must give a reason to the choice they took and so they talk ill of the country they came from, and in order to give a justification to their choice, they describe the country they left as a barbarian country or a country of dummies, forgetting that Italy is the coutry with the biggest artistic patrimony, that is the capital of culture, that invented the law and the western civilization, that for centuries it has been a beacon for all Europe. Probably you belong to those rude italian americans that made us to feel ashamed because with their behavior and their "soprano's style" has given to American the image of us of a rude and ignorant country, and only presence of Florence is the proof how far you are from the real Italy. And, are we lazy workers? My father for his whole life worked from 8 a.m to 8 p.m. At least here one of these days Berlusconi will end in jail, and doesn't get more than 30% of the vote, but criminals like Chenney will never go in jail and people like him (Romney) still get more than 45%. Nothing disgusts me more than people who regret their roots. Make us a favor, never get back in Italy and even change your Italian name.
Well, the stats do seem to support that, since I've read that tax evasion is rampant and that jobs are so well-protected that connections are more important than skills and competence to landing one. Still, I'm hesitant to condemn an entire nation's populace (or a majority, perhaps). Partially out of political correctness, and partially because it's just too hopeless to write off an entire country's people and say "hey, they got what they deserved". There has to be a way for Italy to get a half-way competent governer while still preserving democratic integrity.
Okay, I'm not gonna be the guy to defend Cheney, ever (though I don't know what you would want him convicted for), but Romney? Really? The guy never became President, so we don't know how he would have performed. Berlusconi became premiere for THREE terms, despite a proven track record of economic decline, and, as the article states, is performing well despite being indicted and having been forced to resign for his conduct and incompetence. Trying to claim that American voters are worse for kind-of-almost electing Mitt Romney is quite a stretch.
Mussolini was a fascist... and fascism is the extreme right wing end of the left-right spectrum. Try and run from that all you want, you can not rewrite history or the goals of that particular political movement... which was the polar opposite of what Marx proposed. A former communist and the father of fascism would have zero in common, one banned the assembly of the other party for a reason...
*Sigh* This is why a left-right spectrum is inadequate to explain the complexities of political science, especially when talking about European politics to Americans, since we have different ideas of what "liberal" and "conservative" mean than Europeans do.
Fascism is right-wing in its militancy and nationalism, and left-wing in its subversion of individualism and demands that the state have total control of civilian life. So you have unchecked state power in all aspects of society fueled by rampant nationalism and a sprawling, oppressive security complex. It's like a combination of the worst things about leftist radicals AND rightist radicals. Which I suppose would make it a centrist radical ideology (HA!).
For SF accountant
1)Cheney should be charged for “crimes against humanity” for what he did in Iraq, he invaded a sovereign country using false proves as excuse, he ordered a system of torture and murder, of civilians as well, what he did is not that different to what Hitler did with Poland, he should be judged by A.I.A. international court just like Milosevic.
2) I’m not saying Romney should be charged, what I’m saying is something else: the Bush administration created the disaster all the world is living now, i.e. he created a huge public debt wasting billions in his war and so impoverish the American economy, and whilst at wall street they were “gambling” with savers money, they were looking in another direction, and in 2008 when the financial disaster happened, all he did is take money by tax payers and present them to criminal banks, and the combination of these two factors created the financial-economic crisis we all know and which had a domino effect in all the world and which we are living in Europe now. Romney and his staff are the same people from the Bush administration, I mean other faces, but same ideas, same proposals, same lobbies behind, Bush’s project continues, republicans created the disaster and then the same people who create it - with another mask on their face, I still remember Condoleezza Rice’s speech – put the blame on who came after to fix it. It takes decades to do it, but they talked like Obama wasted all the American money in Iraq and not Bush’s gang. What happened, more than 45 % of Americans believed them. They did exactly what Berlusconi has done and did also this time: he created the disaster, so people are impatient because they are suffering, and he, by all his media, put the blame on who came after him, and when people are exasperated from sacrifices, they aren’t very rational and able to think it over. Exactly the same thing Republicans did, but in America 45% of people fell in this trap, in Italy almost 30% if we consider all center-right coalition, 20% belong to Berlusconi’s party. For this reason I say you are not better than us. Many Americans like to think themselves better than anybody else – not only than Italians- and behave with the rest of the world like the “teacher with students”. Many American people don’t know much of other realities and see the rest of the world thru the foreign communities in their country which are not like the original countries but a parody of them – little Italy is not even a parody of Italy, but of South Italy-, but watching them you think to know everything of other countries and so feel entitled to teach them how to live, to judge them, when something wrong happens, the message in short is “after all they are Italian, they are French, they are Hispanic, it is happening because they are not us” but I tell you that you are not better than anybody else, you’ve got to learn from the rest of the world like anybody else.
Getting back to Berlusconi and American voters, you have been provident as it is not possible to be president twice, and also wise somehow because you have only two parties, the real problem here is not that Berlusconi got the votes of majority of Italians – 20/30% can be defined majority?- but that the center, the center-left and the left are too fragmented and argue with each other. So imagine if in U.S. you could run anytime you want like here and Bush candidate for the 3° time, how many votes would he have gotten? How was his popularity when Obama was running against Mc Cain? I remember about 20%, notwithstanding the worst administration of U.S. history, about 20% were ready to vote him again. And how was his popularity when Obama was running against Romney? It increased, some people already had forgotten, probably it was already more than 30%, and what if on the other side there were many parties instead of only Democrats? Yes, he could be president for the 3° time, even if 30% is not the majority of Americans. How is it possible? Because in America, like in Italy, there is large group of people which is obtusely anti-communism, tea parties and a good part of republicans say there is a danger communism in almost anything the democrats propose and who is blindly anti-communism believe them: Berlusconi does exactly the same thing, that’s why it is almost impossible to take him under the 20%, somebody is obsessively anti-communist would vote even the devil in order to avoid anybody they told him to be communist. Not only, you have to consider Berlusconi get votes in Sicily, Calabria, Campania, Apulia - the four regions in south Italy dominated by Mafia – because Mafia collects them for him in exchange of favors in Parliament, so in that 20/30% there are even less people “enchanted” by him but simply “bought”; in fact, is it casual that in the 5 regions of South Italy, he lost only in the one where there isn’t mafia, i.e. Basilicata?
Then try to live in place where most of TV channel are dominated by only one, and the perception of reality is strongly distort by it: do you think Americans would fall into the trap TV? Maybe, but I wouldn’t be so sure: do you remember when before the 2° Iraqi war many TV channels scared you a lot and as consequence Americans have been the only country in the world to believe to the fat lie of “Saddam’s weapons mass destruction” and the only one to want that war. You are addicted to TV just like us. And about the conflict of interest, that is so evident for Berlusconi, have you forgotten the conflict of interest of Cheney and Rumsfield? They even made a war for that. The situation is at this point in Italy because Berlusconi has been smart to take advantage of “holes in the system”, nobody made before a law like you did against conflict of interest and so that you couldn’t be president more than 8 years because nobody before could have imagined something like that.
Okay, so you blame the VICE President, who has almost no formal powers in America's government, for the Iraq invasion? Which was launched in full compliance with our laws, mind you. And you blame him for the torture and "murder" conducted by the US military too? And then, in conclusion, he's like Hitler.
Okay, sure. Like I said, I'm not going to defend Richard Cheney. But I'm rolling my eyes REALLY HARD right now.
The rest of your post reads like copy-pasted list of Democratic party talking points. You don't have a problem with Romney, you have a problem with Republicans, and you think that anyone voting for them is just as bad as people voting for Berlusconi. Furthermore, despite Bush being out of power for four years and being completely irrelevant to modern American politics, I see him and the Iraq War everywhere in your post. You literally look down on Americans because you've constructed an impossible mental scenario where he was elected to a third term. I don't want to have to defend the Republican party's political stance from your strawman (or Bushman in this case) arguments, but luckily I don't have to, because your premise has become more absurd the more you explain it: now, in addition to thinking Americans are stupid for almost-kind of voting in Romney (because you've chosen to plaster Bush's face over his), you think Americans are stupid for maybe voting in Bush in a hypothetical non-scenario in your head based on completely irrelevant and unlikely poll projections.
That's not really a winning argument.
The last parts of your post paint a rather grim picture of Italy's political landscape that run counter to your original point, that Italian emigrants shouldn't be ashamed of their country for being such a mess. It's way more compelling than Rhcrest's quick comment. I'm only 1/8 Italian, but it sure makes me glad that my great-great-grandparent got out of that messed up country.
Berlusconi again? Can't wait to see if the Germans are willing to pay for more "bunga bunga" parties for Silvio, as Roma burns.
My mom is from Palermo, and shame on you for saying you are ashamed of being of Italian ancestry. And such lazy sloths, as you call them, invented much of the modern day's amenities which you hopefully enjoy on a daily basis, such as toilets. In addition, law, architecture and much of out literature goes back to Ancient Rome. Roman roads, built by Italians, are still in use today. But you wouldn't know that, would you?
Ancient Rome was the pinnacle of civilization. Modern Rome is quite something else.
I don't think there are any Italians ashamed of their country's history, but I can sympathize with being exasperated with country as it is now.
@Jay,
Guess this is the old saying, "if you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth" or something like that. Guess you just make up "facts"
"While Thomas Crapper is commonly given credit for inventing the first flushing toilet in the late 1800s, the first version can actually be traced back to 1596. At this time, a British nobleman, Sir John Harrington, first engineered and invented a valve that could release water from the water closet (WC) when pulled. Sir Harrington, who was also the godson of Queen Elizabeth I, recommended pulling the valve (“flushing” the toilet) once a day for sanitary purposes."
I don't think they're Italian now, do you.
Here you go, genius...
Access to Toilets
"According to O.F. Robinson, Ancient Rome: City Planning and Administration, there were 144 public latrines in Rome in the later Empire. Apparently mostly concomitant of the public baths, which only makes sense as they could share water and sewerage. There may have been a token payment if they were separate from the baths, she conjectures. She also writes that they were comfortable places, where one might sit and read, or otherwise "amuse oneself sociably," hoping for [dinner] invitations. She cites a ditty by Martial:
O.K....the Romans invented an out house (latrine), the Brits invented the better F-L-U-S-H-I-N-G toilet..which one do you use?
Well, the Romans did invent rudimentary plumbing first, but honestly the Roman Empire is so far removed from modern-day Italy that I find it kind of strange for modern Italians to claim ancient Roman achievements as their own nation's.
Not that it much matters if thousands of years ago some genius that happened to inhabit the same region as you invented something awesome. It doesn't really change any of Italy's current problems, you know?
I'm honestly amazed that Italians are voting for Berlusconi. Even if you put aside the miserable past performance and the impending trials, every time he gains any advantage the markets dive; it's like merely mentioning his name instantly brings calamity. He was already forced out of office for incompetence. He can't take power again, so his apparent goal is to prevent the winners from accomplishing anything useful. His rallying cry seems to be "This isn't MY fault! Vote for me!"
Then again, that is a REALLY nice suit.
He was not forced out do to incompetance, per se. He was fornced out because Italians can't do anything right....he was forced out for "shock! scandal! Ruby-gate" more than anything. And when that happened I predicted his return. Why? Because nobody called him out on his politics. He was replaced by a nerd who had no popularity and at the end of the day, has the bank's interests at heart. Silvio is a master at one thing--marketing. He's the only Italian politician to understand what it takes to win over a voting public. Big Papi Silvio has done EXACTLY as you said....he can easily say "this isn't my fault" and people believe him. I give him credit for manipulation...and by that, he does it better than Bersani, who is another joke and not exactly a "for the man" type of politico. Maybe the 5-Star movement will one day be serious. Until today, however, they've caused nothing but another unstable government to form and Italy will be a joke for the near future.
Well, I partially disagree in your assessment of Monti; whether or not he has the "bank's interests at heart", he's making actual progress to improve Italian productivity and competitiveness, which is key to its long-term economic performance. And Italy sure could use a "nerd" in power after being led so long by a greasy celebrity.
And although the impending trials certainly provided an excuse, the timing of Berlusconi's resignation, as well as his replacement, suggests to me that it had more to do with his lack of a reform plan (or ANY plan) and less to do with him making a fool of himself. There's also the fact that he's making his political comeback with the trials still pending, but with financial markets much calmer thanks to Monti's changes.
Why is austerity a bad word?
Answer: Because people want free $#!+ off the labors of others.
Some people are too stupid to understand that austerity is not a cure for bankruptcy, it is the result of it. When no one will give you more money you can't pull it out of your a$$, you have no choice but to cut spending.
One of the reasons we could easily slip into worse shape than Italy is we can print our own money, there is no bottom to the hole we can dig ourselves into.
Sounds like their House and Senate will be as screwed up as ours and stuck in gridlock too.
Your wallet is never safer than when Congress is gridlocked.
Do you feel we do not have enough laws? How many more do we need?
Too few taxes being levied? Please donate to the Treasury, either through the IRS or directly.
I think we need one more law removing Congress' power to regulate interstate commerce, and by extension all of the ridiculous abuses of legislation that have been passed based on that premise.
As for gridlock, while it's true that it may keep useless/bad new laws from being passed, it also holds up useful reform of old laws, which our government sorely needs. So I'd hardly call gridlock a good thing by default.
The whole world will be laughing at Italy if Berlesconi is elected to ANY office!
Very predicable...sold all my European stocks a couple of weeks ago...it doesn't matter what the people want...it is a matter of what the Law of Economics will allow...
Hope you have sold all your US stocks as well. Inflation and $7 gas is headed your way, and hard assets and metals will be your only hedge against the massive inflation coming. Those without appreciable assets will see their spending power wiped out. The USA has an economic wipeout coming.
Actually stocks will track inflation because they represent assets. That's why the rich make out with inflation while the poor loses. After the initial stock market recovery the market hasn't done much better than real inflation.
So sad that the sheep of Italy will once again elect a billionaire philanderer!
Of course, the people of Washington DC re-elected Mr. Marion Barry...a man of wholesomeness and integrity!
People are fickle (and stupid) at times.
There is no bigger Dummy than the American Dummy!
In Europe we laugh our asses off at how stupid Americans are to have given the one we call Odumbo another term of office.
America will be so broke destroyed and in debt by the time he leaves office there will be no fixing it. America is finished.
Just to clarify -- is Berlusconi running for prime minister or pope?
It will be interesting to see if the Joke (Berlusty) and the Comic (Beppe) bring about the revolution and clash between the have and have not. It will be interesting to see if NATO troops are called in or if the new pope calms the fears with promises of a new all encompassing socialism government. The last time Europe destabilized it allowed Fascism and Communism to flourish and America got dragged into the fray to stop the butchering of millions of civilians. I hope America does not have to save them from their great social experiments again. I hope we don't get sucked down into the mire of this bid for a one world government bullsh!t.
Don't look to the government to solve the problems of fiscal mismanagement,They have no answers to fix the economy.This Berlustconi is a power hungry man whore an embarrassment to the Italian people,just send in the clowns.
They have the same problems we have: an entrenched aristocracy of liars and hypocrites that would sell their souls for a buck. Add to that a corrupt Church and a strong Communist party that is also corrupt and you see why the people have no where to turn! The Choice is austerity or more of the same old crap. As usual the crap wins, as it always has ... until its too late, then what ... revolution! And the cycle starts all over again.
Here, the elderly have been paying for the recession since 2008, when Obama decreased the interest rates so the housing industry could rebound and the bankers have made a fortune off the excuse of not letting people foreclose. The result: cities full of foreclosed properties, and the spread of the inner city ghettos; and the elderly living on CD's and IRA's that pay nothing. So where is that FREEDOM everybody keeps talking about?
Parties and "isms", the bain of the human race - but we never seem to learn!
Italian chicks are hot...
Sounds like what Odumbo did to get the American Welfare Dummies and lower IQ losers to re-elect him...
The USA has a major collapse coming soon...in 2013.. it will be an economic wipeout and austerity unlike anything the world has ever seen. No nation can last that rewards failure and penalizes success and who has 50% of the population that pays ZERO in income tax, and which spends 1.5 trillion dollars more a year than what comes in.... and can't even make an 85 billion dollar cut... truly amazing... Incredible really how dumb Americans really are. Glad I am in Switzerland...
You are SO clueless its not even funny. I guess the 1.2 TRILLION dollar cut doesn't count, nor does all the other taxes EVERYONE including the VERY POOR pay. Maybe you'll understand one day, before you hit the grave.
And if the US has a "major collapse coming soon...in 2013" it will be the beginning of the second civil war, and if you look at all the polls, the Repuklicons (obstructionist causers) will never even have a fighting chance, it won't even last long.
And let's hope you stay there along with the rest of the gutless cowards that dwell in your country. A country that protects the bank accounts of drug traffickers, arms dealer, corrupt government leaders and f***ing Nazis. You are the scum of the earth.
Are you sure Obama aint the leader of Italy?
NO and he aint your engrish teacher also. Don't ax again.
We basically have a hung parliament, or Congress here too, because we have not had the ability or intelligence to hang the Republican party members (YET) that are causing it.
But keep it up Repuklicons and your day WILL come.
Spoken like a true progressive fascist. Hang? Really?
Ourdoc, I feel that your desire to have political opposition executed because you don't agree with their views and goals is detrimental to a safe and peaceful democratic process. Simmer down, would you? You're not doing "your side" any favors.
Here we go with another "this has never happened before" unprecedented event.
Italy is a wonderful country-to visit. However, its government is made up of total fruitcakes - not anywhere near as bad as the tax crazy socialist bastards in California, however.
Good thing the pope is not running the country, or is he?
What a mess.................
I find it amazing that NBC can publish an article with this quote:
"Uncertainty bodes ill for the nation's efforts to pass the tough reforms it needs to snuff out its economic crisis",
and on other sites will blame the republicans for holding pat on wanting THIS country to pass tough reforms it needs.