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Subscribe to RSSHuge crowds are anticipated for Pope Benedict's final papal audience tomorrow. Soon the conclave – including controversial California Cardinal Roger Mahoney – will select a new leader for the Catholic Church. NBC's Anne Thompson reports.
A lame-duck pope. A secret dossier. Rumors of a gay cabal. A cardinal accused of "inappropriate" behavior.
The Vatican is in an uproar, and church scholars say there hasn't been this much drama surrounding a conclave since 1800, when Pope Pius VI died while being held prisoner by Napoleon.
One Vatican watcher says you have to go back to 1730 — when Pope Benedict XIII's right-hand man fled Rome in disguise amid allegations of corruption — to find a conclave buffeted by this much scandal.
"This is not a healthy situation for any kind of institution," said the Rev. Thomas Reese, an expert on the Catholic Church at Georgetown University.
"It looks like amateur hour."
The conclave that will begin next month to choose Pope Benedict XVI's successor was always going to be an anomaly since it's been centuries since a sitting pontiff resigned.
The pope's historic Feb. 11 announcement has been overshadowed, however, by an extraordinary wave of revelations and accusations.
Leading historian Michael Walsh discusses the impact of Pope Benedict XVI's resignation, his legacy and whether there's a chance that the next pontiff will be a non-European.
There were calls for cardinals accused of mishandling the sex-abuse crisis to abstain from voting. Then came a report that Britain's top cleric, Cardinal Keith O'Brien had been accused of bad behavior by priests, followed by his resignation on Monday.
Over the weekend, the Vatican had to deny an Italian newspaper report that Pope Benedict abdicated because an internal probe into the so-called Vatileaks mess had uncovered a network of gay priests who were being blackmailed.
Now comes the news that the pope will only let two people see the report on the document leaks — himself and his successor — despite calls for the Holy See to become more transparent.
Certainly, there have been other modern conclave controversies.
The 1903 frontrunner, Cardinal Mariano Rampolla, was vetoed by the emperor of Austria-Hungary, prompting a change in rules that allowed Catholic powers to knock down a candidate, said NBC News' Vatican expert, George Weigel.
Hulton Archive via Getty Images, file
Experts say there hasn't been this much pre-conclave uproar since a pope spirited out of Rome by Napoleon's forces died.
The conclave of 1914 had cardinals from Germany and France refusing to speak to each other, and the conclave of 1939 was held against the backdrop of a world hurtling toward war.
But today's level of pre-conclave tension hasn't been seen since 1800, two years after French forces invaded Rome and carried off the pope, several experts said.
"You had a dire situation where Pope Pius VI died effectively still a prisoner of the French. The cardinals could not gather in Rome for the election and had to meet on an island off Venice," said Matthew Bunson, general editor of the Catholic Almanac.
James Weiss, a professor of church history at Boston College, sees the conclave of 1730 more analogous, because it was complicated by internal problems, not outside forces.
He said that when Pope Benedict XIII died after six years, his corrupt and powerful aide, Cardinal Niccolo Coscia, was run out of town amid allegations he looted Vatican coffers.
"The population of Rome attacked his palace and he disguised himself a washerwoman and escaped," Weiss said. Coscia managed to negotiate a return for the conclave, however.
The commotion around the upcoming conclave could have serious consequences.
The Vatileaks intrigue would appear to undermine the cardinals of the Roman Curia, the administrators of the Vatican, while the sex-scandal bombshells weaken the outsiders from dioceses around the world, Reese said.
The various crises underscore some of the Vatican's weaknesses: a lack of transparency and an allergy to change in a rapidly modernizing world with a 24-hour news cycle and exploding social media.
"This is chickens coming home to roost," Weiss said.
Church historians say the clouds hovering over the conclave show why the next pope, unlike Benedict and John Paul II before him, must make Vatican house-cleaning a priority — from streamlining a web-like bureaucracy to standardizing archaic finances.
"It's always an issue when you have an institution that thinks in terms of centuries, to bring about reforms on a turn of a dime." Bunson said,
Bunson said he thinks those reforms are within reach with the right leader, but Weiss wondered if efforts to usher in a new era aren't already being undercut by the Vatican's announcement that the Vatileaks dossier will stay under wraps.
"That means the cardinals are going into the conclave blind, not knowing who among them may have stuffed their pockets or been part of gay sexual enclaves," he said.
Reese said moving up the date of the conclave — which the pope announced Monday he would allow — could also be antithetical to change because it gives the cardinals less time to consider outsider candidates.
"This is the most important thing these cardinals will ever do," he said. "There’s no reason to rush."
NBC News' Erin McClam contributed to this report.
As Pope Benedict XVI prepares to step down from his position in a matter of days, Italian newspapers are reporting rumors of blackmail and conspiracy. NBC's Anne Thompson reports.
Related:
Pope says Vatileaks probe will stay secret
Britain's top Catholic cleric resigns amid allegations of inappropriate behavior
LA's Cardinal Mahony calls himself a scapegoat
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Power corrupts eternally. Good , Bad, it doesn't matter. The Vatican has outlived it's usefulness. If God exists, I'm sure he doesn't have a high opinion of Rome these days.
I doubt God has any high opinions from Vatican since the start. Jesus himself said the church is a place of worship and nothing else. However, did you see anything else but power and politic from Vatican for hundreds of years?
I agree -- indeed the Vatican has outlived its usefulness. Time to close the Roman Catholic Church and throw out with it all of disgusting homosexual priests who commit crime in the name of god.
Americanway << ~~~~~ >> Carefull! Unlike the day when they carted Oscar Wilde off to Gaol, it is not now politerally correct to put down gays.
I am atheist but if a god truly exists, he/she does not reside in the vatican.
God is much more interested in Salt Lake City than Rome.
I'm sure God never had a high opinion of Rome. If Jesus really were to come back I'm sure the first thing he'd do is burn the Vatican down.
The BIG DEAL about all this is that God forgives. Always has amazed me. These @!$%#s (I am not God so I don't have the power to forgive) get away with WHATEVER and God forgives.
So, I will always believe. They, however, are flakes to include the Jews and Italians. When these @!$%#s are added to the equation, then THEY became scum.
Rome has a high opinion of Rome as if that matters.
Its sky fairy time and right before that pagan calendar calculated celebration of...Easter!!
Dont miss out on the minute by minute drama as the senior child molesters,(dressed in little red robes) lock themselves in a little room so they can have some privacy for the papal circle jerk of a lifetime, all because the sky fairies last favorite child molester said '@!$%# you god, I quit'.
Just think, there will be a brand new sky fairy favorite! Just as soon at the senior child molesters pray long and hard enough to find out which one of them is the chosen one the sky fairy likes best!
And just in time for Easter. You know that special time when everyone is celebrating because the sky fairy let his son be slaughtered to save us all from sin!
But wait, there's more! The sky fairy then brings his dead son back to life, pretty much reneging on the death-for-sin deal he made with himself. Has to be an awkward he has a conversation with himself about that one. Oh well, not your problem, right?
So join the fun, wear a zombie tied to a stick around your neck and get in line with the others so you can worship the sky fairy by getting on your knees and putting part of a man in your mouth!
yea!
The Vatican must confess to its flock. Everything. Their lies have caught up with them regarding the molestation and financial corruption. The only way to purge that 'sin' and to be right with both God and society is to confess your transgressions, admit any fault, fix what you can, and ask forgiveness of the ones you've hurt. They must walk the talk now.
Really troubling to me is how the gay members within their ranks - who are NOT child molesters - are being horribly victimized and used. Now THAT is some really cruel behavior, EVIL really, going on inside that place.
THIS IS "The Vatican"...I'm not Catholic, but I resent that institution for inaccurately representing God and Christ and twisting "The Word" from the start. Thank goodness we found the dead sea scrolls. We know they have lots of valuable historical material regarding Jesus that they keep 'secret'. They are keeping us away from the real Christ. That's really a crime against all of mankind.
"A bend in the road is not the end of the road unless you fail to make the turn."
The exclusive "All Boy's Club" is out dated...
The church does NOT teach the words of Jesus Christ...
The church is a organization of corruption and a haven for pedophiles... A bunch of men running around, bejeweled and dressed in elaborate dresses and gowns, genuflecting to each other and kissing one an-others rings is just so wrong in so many ways...
Praise God, not thy self...
Wow, so much disdain and hate for the Catholic Church. I am a Catholic and I do agree that it is very sad what has happened with child molestations and the like and there should be accountability wherever and whenever this occurs. But, the church has been around for 2,000 years and started with the line of Peter the apostle. So folks that believe the church has outlived its usefullness and should curl up and die are mistaken. The church has gone through other scandals, hardships, etc. and has always persevered.
Why? Because as Jesus made so very clear, "you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld will not prevail against it."
In the end, I am proud to be a Catholic and to see the many good Catholic lay people and priests that there are.
I think the Catholic Church has done much good, by many good priests and members. But I would expect more of its leadership, if it were indeed Christ's Church. There is not an unbroken line of Popes dating back to Peter. Such a line was constructed centuries after his death. And many links in that chain were extremely bad examples of a Christian.
Then you really don't know jack @!$%# about how your religion as @!$%#ed up the world.
Michael Boyd-1429246: Flagged for anti-Jewish rant.
Reality - I am not religious, but I do have disdain for the catholic church.
I can't wrap my head around folks like yourself just ignore the giant pedophilia scandal, like it was just one guy in the philipines who abused a handful of kids and everyone else is the one making the big deal, when there is none.
The Pope, the very one who's mysteriously too ill suddenly to continue his job to the grave - as he agreed to - is stepping down, and ordaining that no one can see the results of the internal investigation that proves just how crooked and evil he really is...
and YOU are the one who has the gall to wonder why so many people have hatred and disdain for a church that cares more about a cross-dressing man in a dress and fancy hat, than the hundreds of thousands of children sexually abused by priests in the catholic church...and essentially ignored by the Pope himself?
seriously?
How do you think you're going to heaven, while you support an institution that has done all this...and continues to behave like it did none of it?
I would like to believe you guys think admitting the failures and asking for forgiveness is crucial to ones salvation.
So when will the church admit every last transgression, corruption, failure and cover up...publically, so that folks like you who believe and blindly give a thumbs up to the church can - very publically say "Holy @!$%#, they did all of that?"
and then, you can tell God, you still support that corrupt beast...and see how that pans out for you.
doret, you post some very hateful and bigoted ranks. Not that I expect you to change, or even to take an honest look at your attitude since, based upon personal experience, the most hateful and bigoted people I have met throughout my life are athiests.
Tired,
There is a God. God is the creative force in the Universe. The creative force in the Universe is God.
God created the Big Bang. The Big Bang created the Universe. God is separated from man by the Big Bang.
Christianity is a "Godspeak" religion and it belongs on the rubbish heap of history, along with the Nazis and the USSR.
Give me you money now so you can live forever when you die. The ultimate con.
I see a lot of attack against the Church here. The same Christian haters excuse the pedophilia among their precious teachers union hangers on, politicians, and college professers. The key here is the fear of personal responsibility. If good old Joe is bad, then I must be good.
Monkey @ Keyboard - it doesnt get any more anti-jewish than having your Savior, Jesus Christ, return in the end times only after the Jews accept him as their saviour too.
That basically would mean the end of Judaism...right?
Maybe im just a little messed up in the head, but if someone elses faith required the end of christianity for their own to be fulfilled, I think christians would call that faith anti-christian. JUST A HUNCH.
Mike - I abhor pedophilia in any profession, or no profession at all.
What the BLEEP are you talking about?
Christopher Cole,
Perhaps its escaped your notice, but the guise and @!$%#ing bull@!$%# of christianity isnt something that everyone is buying anymore.
The heaven above, hell below works very nicely if you believe the world is flat. Talking snakes, talking burning bushes and sky fairies killing their own son, would be fine if the people who were stupid enough to believe it, didnt impose their @!$%#ing filth on everyone else, but it doesnt seem to ever work out that way.
Get used to people not putting up with your christ @!$%#. The world is getting smarter.
Ah Jessica,
You ignorant clown, the Left has you under their spells.
Didn't you know that Cardinal O' Brien was accused of HOMOSEXUAL abuses by his seminarians (full grown adult males). Ah, but the LEFT don't report this. The homosexual mafia in the Church are an underground movement. According to the report by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, 80% (got that Jessica?) were abuses that happened to young people 13-18 years old of the male gender. These ain't no Phedophilia abuses, these were HOMOSEXUAL abuses!!!
Wake up from your stupidity. What I am citing is a true source. Look it up CLOWN!
Going off on anti-Christian rants doesn't make you smarter, it just makes you an a$$hole, doret. The majority of Christians are pretty decent people, so they believe in sometging you don't... most aren't hurting anyone. But going off on rants and acting smug like you're so much better than others is worse than anything the average Christian does.
While I whole-heartedly agree that Vatican is full of deceit, I think it is important to remember that a majority of the Church and certainly a majority of Priests are not behind this deception. I have grown up with Priests and they are amazing people who truly do the work of God.
Most Priests are not pedophiles. Most Priests are not corrupt. And most Catholics do not condone this behavior. It is a small few who are destroying the Church and everything it believes in.
Power corrupts. And something needs to be done at the top. And the current Pope is preventing that from being possible by keeping secrets and hurrying this conclave.
"God created the Big Bang. The Big Bang created the Universe. God is separated from man by the Big Bang."
I believe existence is God's consciousness itself. Science SEEMS to show that observation changes reality down at the most fundamental AND experimentally testable levels. Specifically, check out the double-slit experiment. This experiment works with both photons (light particles) as well as with particles that have mass. If our observation changes reality, and we are made "in God's image" like it says in the christian bible, then maybe God (in the sense of Creator) isn't quite as separate from our existence as some believe. If our observation alone truly does change reality, and IF there is a God, then maybe we are just a part of God's... "observation."Regardless, IF there is a God or god, I doubt it would care about the specifics of every religion's belief... so I chose my own.
The Catholic church; the other Italian mafia...
The only difference is they don't kill people (at least not obviously), instead use their 'special' rights to hide their crimes. If they didn't have 'God' on their side, they'd already be in jail.
Pope Alexander VI (Rodrigo Borgia) is often referred to as "the first Godfather"
End this madness: the world doesn't need another Pope. God's on Twitter now.
Instead of paying all that money to fly these vultu...excuse me, I mean cardinals in from all corners of the world and then putting them up to perform voodoo rituals to ask a magic pigeon to pick the next head shaman, wouldn't it be cheaper just to buy all of them a Ouija board and have them sit home and ask the magic pigeon to tell them who to pick and then they could text it in? Think of all that money that would be saved...to pay for all those child-abuse settlements. I'm sure Parker Bros. would give them a volume discount for those boards.
Michael Castleberry,
Spouting off your christian @!$%# is going to get you the same in return. As for being an @!$%# you christians have it down to an art and obviously you're no exception.
Believing in something someone else does not isnt a problem for most people, unless you're a self-righteous piece of @!$%# who thinks its their god given right to impose their beliefs on others and that is what so many christians like you do.
Those of us that are tired of your @!$%#ing sky fairy @!$%#, are going to ram it right down your throats, so get used to swallowing it, just like you do when the priest puts the lord in your mouth.
"The majority of Christians are pretty decent people, so they believe in sometging you don't... most aren't hurting anyone."
Michael, you call them Christians, yet, they themselves don't follow all of the Christ's teachings. So why call them something they really aren't? You can't just pick and choose the select parts of the teachings to follow then call yourself a Christian.
If one year ago a novelist had proposed the story that's currently going on in the Roman Catholic church, any decent publisher would have said it's completely unrealistic. What a joke. And these folks believe they have some sort of special communication privileges with God? Right...
It's true, they can communicate with their god. You see, their god can fit into their doggy bag of dogma.
Not true, actually. Surely you've heard of that seaming pile of dog poo known as The Da Vinci Code?
Which God?
ALL religious groups believe they have some sort of special communication privileges with God. The Polyagamist believe God approves of marrying children and then raping them, the Muslims believe the sight of a naked female nose will drive them into a frenzy of lust hence the Burqhas, and our own Tea Party believe 'others' are abominations and murderers and deserve to burn in hell for all eternity (I'm o.k. with that as long as I don't end up with the the tea party people.....). Gee I wonder what all these groups have in common? Certainly makes for some interesting contemplation...............
"doggy bag of dogma", I like it!
blah blah blah Have some forgiveness in your soul. Your anti catholic feelings are so evident that you comments lose their value. You will not be judged by me but Almighty God and I am sure sure that St. peter will not let your comments go un noticed.
One of my sisters told me I would go to hell if I didn't go back to church.
I laughed and said, "nah, I'd rather get drunk and watch football."
Irish - American Catholics know how to party.
It's always embarassing having to admit to being roman catholic. At least I'm non practicing ... I only do weddings and funerals and a once every blue moon, baptism ... and only because of the after parties that have lots of Bacardi!
Peace-3229398
your true karma would be to end up with members of the Tea party
Steamie,
I refer to myself as a recovering catholic.
As opposed to that @!$%# that cocksucking christians call the bible?
Tell us, all knowing Stevie boy, what is "going on" in the vatican, and cite your insider sources. Or shut up about things which are unknown to you.
John Q: I appreciate that. The one spiritual law I believe in 100% is I WILL reap what I sow......I'm extremely careful about what I plant in my garden and so far I have harvested many, many beautiful flowers. I have been married for 25 years to my soul mate, I enjoy a good job, my better half and I recently bought our dream home in the country and while our health is not perfect we are healthy -most of the time my cup runneth over....I have indeed been blessed and am very grateful..........I just have a small problem with people who choose to be bullies and are deliberately unkind- I do not care what religion they claim............
John Q - will St Peter let all the evil within the Church, and at the direction of the Pope, go unnoticed?
I would have to believe that Saint Peter would judge far more harshly priests raping children, and the Pope turning a blind eye to those very acts - than he would my criticism of the church.
But if im wrong, Heaven is not where I wish to be then...
Dear God,
Thank you for always protecting us from evil.
Cant wait to spend eternity with such a loving being.
Hugs and kisses,
The last residents of Dachau and the children of Stoneyhook Elementary
"Dear God,
Thank you for always protecting us from evil.
Cant wait to spend eternity with such a loving being.
Hugs and kisses,
The last residents of Dachau and the children of Stoneyhook Elementary"
Freedom comes at a price. God or no god. Id rather have these school shootings than be stuck in some teletubbies existence where everyone smiles and skips around like mindless zombies. I mean if you dont believe in god thats fine but to say that god is responsible shows you've only thought about how God or a god can't exist. It makes it seem like you've never heard of deism or something. I mean @!$%#, even if there isn't a god, being offensive isn't the way to get people to cooperate... i thought you people where all about logic but it's obvious, that is, based on observation, that you dont actually think as much as you'd probably like to believe you do.
politics and religion.. the root of all evil
I'm the same way! I'll only go to one of those magic shows (I don't care if it's catholic or baptist or episcopalian or whatever) unless free food and drink is provided afterwards. Unless there's all-one-wants-to-consume grub and hootch afterwards, ain't no gettin' a Hallmark card and check from me for such superstitious silliness.
I have friends who belonged to one of those buy-bull-believin' spookhouses who got married. They spent over $50,000 on their "big day;" they "registered" at all the most expensive places to make a haul of gifts. But they did not have a bar, not even a "no-host" one because booze "goes against our religion." (They said if anyone wanted a drink, which normal people do, they could go to the bar in the hotel and pay for it themselves.) Of course, I graciously sent back my RSVP, declining their invitation since they were so superstitiously cheap. They didn't even get a Hallmark card, let alone a check, from me. Good thing, too, because they got divorced within two years. Of course, their superstitious spookhouse, even though against divorce, somehow found a way for both to get married again. She had another 50,000-grand "wedding" again. I didn't go to that one, either. The only spirits I want if I have to attend some voodoo ceremony are the ones poured from a bottle, at their expense. And the chicken had better not be dry, or the salmon fishy. Next time, ask Jesus to twitch his nose and magically make it edible.
Ryan
Your @!$%# god was either there and watched the slaughter or he wasnt there at all.
Either way your god of the bible is simply @!$%#.
Years ago when Boston altar boys told of priests coming from the Vatican to abuse them, I never heard a single Catholic call for the Vatican to be investigated although it was clear a pedophilia sex ring was operating out of there. I am glad to see this happening since the church has become so corrupt that it can't hide the corruption anymore. I don't see how any Catholic can stay with such a sick church. I hope that this finishes them off.
And what about the millions of poor Americans who rely on the church for aid daily, many who are NOT Catholic?? The unwed teenage mothers who are addicted to drugs and kicked out of the house? The homeless guy on the street who just needs a meal and conversation when no one else cares? The returning vet who is struggling to retain his sanity?
I know the church needs reform, now, especially in regards to prosecuting child abusers, but let's not forget the millions in this country who benefit daily from church charity when no one else bothers to help. Especially in today's "me first" world.
Ditto !
Yep, cause protestants,evangelicals, non-denominations, tv preachers are so much better and exempt. Difference is the C.C.has always been & will always be a punching bag for you haters.
I dont condone any form of abuse and everyone will stand and face Christ even all of you who have HATE in your hearts.
@CasualUSTaxpayer
Vatican is a state with daily consumption that befit a state. Do you know how much money that requires to operate days to days operation?
The very fact that it requires a big donation daily to sustain them shows that the amount of money they received will be consume mostly by Vatican and their lavish life style first, the left over will be use to help the poor.
Are all the people the church help are really have no beneficial to them? I doubt it, the Pope said so himself the the all the Nuns in the US "It's not your jobs to help the poor, you need to focus more to fight against homosexual".
Sure the church help some people, but only to their benefits of spreading the influence further and then they get donations that mostly will be ship back to Vatican and nowhere else.
Casual - the work you mention is what the church should be about but it is primarily conducted by nuns who are now under attack by the Vatican and US bishops for helping the needy instead of focussing on harrassing gays and outlawing abortion.
At Robert 43: I wouldn't hold my breath. The problem is Catholics themselves: as long as they think these guys are untouchable, infallible, inscrutable, etc. the corruption will continue. It's about time Catholics start to demand transparency and accountability from their leaders. I hope someone will write a book about this soap. I bet it'll soar to the top of The New York Times' bestseller list.
Palenque obviously doesn't know any Catholics! Trust me, pallie, plenty of lay Catholics are pressing for the Church to clean itself up. But that doesn't fit your convenient worldview, does it?...
Casual, there are programs in place by the government which will provide those services for anyone in need, so your "no one else bothers to help" argument is silly. Also, the church may help someone out for a little while, but there is always a hand out and an expectation for that to be repaid to the church through works or donations. If you do not, you get cut off.
Chris although there are programs for women, children and some vets, there is very little if anything available through out government for men.
Trust me, I know that full well. Men are treated pretty harshly through divorce especially, because all of the focus is placed on the support of the spouse and kids if there are any. I've never understood how you can take a single income family, split it into two homes, and provide the same level of living as with one home.
But I digress. I agree, and if you took all of the religion out of the works of the church, you could provide the same care while increasing your base of contributors. There is nothing that a religious person or group can do, which a non-religious person or group cannot.
Catholic Charities is one of the most reputable and largest charities in the world and it holds up to its charitable scrutiny. That is one thing the Catholic Church has right. Yes the pope spoke out of turn about the nuns needing to focus on the family and abortion (most nuns are liberal feminists from my experience). They always do that to cover the sins of men. I have always had the rule that my kids could neither be alone with a priest and nun. During the summer when my kid was 2 the priests got up in church and asked for money to defend priest molesters. They did that about an entire summer and the church sat empty with no offerings. The archdiocese cleaned house and we were a bit surprised about the priests that were no longer there. They were sent to monestaries. This needs to happen across the board.
If the guy in charge is publicly speaking about family and abortion, then I can assure you that what is happening in private is much stronger. It was not a slip of the tongue, it was their mission.
The Catholic church spent 2.7% of their annual spend on charities in 2010. That's not a significant amount at all considering that they took in nearly $200 Billion. Also, Catholic Charities USA, one of the largest private charitable networks in the United States, had revenues in 2010 of $4.67 billion, of which $2.9 billion came from the government and most of the rest from private donations. This one charity, in other words, collected more in public funds alone than all the country's dioceses spent. Now let's talk about the generosity of the Catholic Church that is more that 50% funded with government money.
any of you haters ever hear of virtus training? pity. check it out and youll see were working hard to protect our kids today
What is your point? Yes, they are FINALLY doing something about it. Yay. These moral stewards were supposed to be setting an example in the first place. Admittedly, they are catching up, however they weren't supposed to be doing this, and covering it up, in the first place. They even had the book of alleged absolute morality and authority, and STILL could not figure it out. Yes... we are all impressed.
Anita Casual - the work you mention is what the church should be about but it is primarily conducted by nuns who are now under attack by the Vatican and US bishops for helping the needy instead of focussing on harrassing gays and outlawing abortion.
Who do you think sponsors the "great" work done by the nuns? Withou the CC the majority of the world would go into the toilet. It is the same place that you haters reside.
I hear a bunch of fools talking crap they know nothing about. The church is over a BILLION strong. Robert must be pretty much a ignorant hater to think this little hiccup will finish off the church.
JohnQ, more than half of the CC's Charitable income comes from taxpayer money. The church spends less than half of it's annual income. WHy do they need public money?
Steamie,
I agree. We have to pray for the folks who are truly talking rubbish and out of pure ignorance of the Catholic church. I would not be surprised if most folks on here commenting are atheists. Anyway, I agree - the faithful are very strong and truly, will emerge even stronger in the end.
Steamie - I appreciate that you refer to the massive pedophilia scandal as a "little hiccup"
is that what you think GOD thinks of it as?
Just curious how your religion and your god, thinks of Child Rape.
Remain faithful Steamie, the child rapists are depending on you to ask no questions and ignore this "little hiccup" as quickly as possible.
Good grief...I guess the best place to reside, and be as corrupt as possible, a church.
It's worse than a union.
Jessica, their own book says that these offenders should be put to death. But that is only in the event of homosexual child rape. The book encourages taking women, especially virgins, for themselves freely. There is nothing that says anything about taking female children by men. I too wonder how this can be justified in any human brain.
ChrisFromCincy,
The fact that the government gives money to Catholic charities does not necessarily mean what you are inferring. Another explanation, other than the charities 'need' this government money, is that they charities do such a good job that the government sees it as 'money well spent.'
And in response to something you posted earlier, there is something that a religious charity can do that a non-religious charity can't do. Although you might feel you don't need it, many people do feel a longing for a connection with God. Only a religious organization can help with this longing.
Finally, the Catholic church is in a bad way. As so many people have rightly said, they need to change - not just a little - but a lot. Priests, Bishops, and Cardinals involved in the child abuse cases or cover-ups need to be disciplined severely. If the statute of limitations for their crimes has not passed (unfortunately I think most have) they should be turned over to the secular authorities in the jurisdictions where the crimes took place and the church should cooperate fully with the criminal investigation. If the statute of limitations has passed they need to be pulled from their offices and sent to a monastery or someplace isolated where they can practice their faith and repent unceasingly without coming into contact with children.
The Bible is a book of faith not facts... A Catholic Franciscan Brother told me that in Religion class as a sophomore. All criminals (sexual predators) should be prosecuted for their actions whether they are a doctor, lawyer, priest, football coach, parent, uncle, aunt, mail carrier, teacher, Joe Schmo down the street. It shouldn't be covered up or swept under the rug. But to vilify an entire group of people based on their religious affiliation is pathetic. One of the principles that this country was founded on is FREEDOM OF RELIGION. You are free to be Agnostic, Atheist, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Scientology but what you don't have the right to do IMO is belittle or demean people based on their beliefs. And for the record I am NOT Roman Catholic.
HChris, with all of the Christian Conservatives who complain about the government spending money that is not needed, removing a giveaway to a company who is profitable is a good move. The Church is pocketing over $200 billion a year after expenses, so why do they not use their own money before taxpayer money?
ChrisFromCincy,
Please cite your sources. I found this from the Economist,
Without a doubt, the Catholic church needs to get its finances in order and make them transparent. In fact, your claim seems dubious based on the fact that even The Economist doesn't have reliable numbers for Catholic finances. You can see in the quote that they are using anecdotal evidence and assumptions. The figures are not made available to the public, which ought to change, but that doesn't negate the fact that the Catholic church is the single largest charitable organization in the country - thanks to all those believers people say they are "duping" into giving.
"The book encourages taking women, especially virgins, for themselves freely. There is nothing that says anything about taking female children by men. I too wonder how this can be justified in any human brain."
It's a shame hypocrites exist. I personally prefer Jesus' teachings over pretty much everything else in the bible, including it's contradictions: "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" as he was defending a woman accused of adultery. I would agree the hypocritical christians should try to be more christ-like. Also, there a LOT of christians who learned not to take every word in the bible literally.... but for you it's all or nothing right?
Look at your own quote. More than 60% of their money is coming from the government, not from believers. I'm looking for the numbers I read earlier, but the point is the same. If they are donating taxpayer money, then they are redistributing wealth, which is a conservative no-no. Where is the conservative outcry?
Ryan, I'm not a Christian. Merely pointing out that Christians use the words in the book to defend their beliefs, including taking single sentences, and parts thereof, out of context to try to enforce their point. Yet they ignore a large swath that clearly says how to deal with bad children, and grants people the right to enslave others. Either it all is the word, or it's not. I don't believe that any god would ask us to try to guess what he meant.
@Steamie2010
Yes, Catholic is over 1 billion strong, but more than half of them come from Brazil as the biggest nation with Catholic, next is Mexico. How are those countries holding up with majority of Catholic?
ChrisFromCincy,
I didn't overlook that statistic. But it's a far cry from what you were posting before. The church spends $170 Billion on it's schools, universities, and hospitals. So it's not like they're pocketing $200 billion like you were saying. Not to mention the estimated income from donations in the US is $13 billion and the US is supposed to be far and away the largest donor country for the church.
Additionally, not all Christians are politically conservative and neither are all conservatives Christian. I can't tell you why there is no outcry, because I don't think there should be...
No other organized religion in the history of the world has helped (and continues to help) more poor and outcast people than the Catholic Church. Its' downfall would hurt millions of poor and unwanted in this country alone, and not only Catholics, who have no one else to turn to.
That being said, it's way past time for reforms. Priests should be allowed to marry, so any family advice they give to the flock is from experience. Women should be alllowed to become priests, no reason not to. Prosecute anyone found abusing children. Period.
With these three simple reforms, the Catholic church will find it's place in the 21st century world. Without reform, they'll just keep being easy prey to the lame brained mass media.
Casual, delusion. The church's motive has always been to recruit souls through it's "good works". That's the way of the world. Remember, it is a human institution run by humans, a political organization with all of the foibles of human institutions. The arrogance of the church troubles me greatly.
The catholic church has created more poverty than it has alleviated with it's stand against contraception.
Casual - I don't buy your numbers that the Catholic Church has helped millions of people
I've traveled a bit and from what I have seen and experienced that "so called help" always came with a price
Let's take Pope Pious X11 - he helped the Nazis flee to Argentina - if only Hitler did not bomb the Vatican
I've had the experience of visiting the Vatican - as you enter there is a bank of pay phones - I thought it was "Dial a Sin" from then on it was pay as you go!
Baronial Splendor - fit for a King - and the peasants paid for their luxuries
The next Dan Brown book should be titled - "The Pope Wore Prada"
Help from just about any religion comes with a price. That's why people, through their governments, began directly taking over the role of caring for the needy.
And Joel Osteen having his own arena doesn't bother you a bit, does it, Barbara? Paddy Robertson having a TV empire is the epitome of pious poverty, isn't it? Megachurches are just like the little white church on the hill, too.
And of course, no other religions ever ever ever put any kind of quid on their services, do they?
And of course absolutely no other religion uses its organization for political ends!
Look, if we want to discuss the excrescences of the Roman church--and it certainly does have them--let's not forget that there are plenty of other religious institutions that are drenched in wealth and power. If you want to point out that the Church has used its charities as a means of recruitment, true enough, but equally true of any other denomination. And if you want to criticize the Church for its political stances (God knows I do), make sure you criticize the other denominations as well. And if you think only the Church has a sex abuse problem, well, you really haven't been paying attention, have you?...
Excellent point, Conjuring Cat.
Right on Conjuring Cat- And let's not forget the self-proclaimed gods of Hollywood and their millions who help no one but themselves.
"Barbara Adams" - The help I see the church give daily is free- I don't know where you've been, but it can't be anywhere here in America. You must worship the gods of Hollywood or mega corporations who REALLY and TRULY screw the poor.
CasualUSTaxpayer, can you honestly claim that the wealth of the church is representative of the teachings of Christ, or god?
Practice what you preach....
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." Matthew 19:21
I will follow that up with the following comment.... Shouldn't we expect nothing less than perfect from the church, since it is supposed to be setting the example of how to reach god?
True enough, Chris. And have you mentioned this to Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, the megachurches, the SBC, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and so on and so on and so on? It's not just the Vatican who needs to hear it...
Cute Conjuring Cat. I can assure you that when the story is about one of them, I will mention it there as well. My feelings are universal to them all.
Chris, then maybe we should let God do his/her job and judge those rightfully.
There are lots of "unorganized", non religious help groups and individuals assisting the poor, disadvantaged, and unfortunate of the world. Alcoholics helping alcoholics, veterans helping veterans, communities helping cancer survivors, disaster relief volunteers aiding stricken neighbors and communities afar, food relief efforts, clothing drives, old ladies sewing clothes and blankets, rich people drilling water wells, all without organized religion. You can have a non denominational wedding, funeral, secular education, and dogma free medical care. You can enjoy feasts and the exchange of gifts any day of the year you so care to choose, get an education without a benediction, and hold a position of authority without church involvement.
There's plenty of life to live without the need of church involvement, or church control, and more and more people are living that way. The question is, " Who wants authority in their lives, so consumed by scandal themselves, that they can't function? " They, who wish for authority, certainly aren't getting it currently from Rome. The reality of the situation is, if the Catholic Church makes the changes it needs to, it's no longer the Catholic Church.
Chris, the problem you face is that you try to present your argument with words that were written some 2,000 years ago to a very different culture. When you try and understand your quote, it is really meant to say physical things are not what we are on earth for, don't make them the reason for your existence.
WeAllHaveOpinions, I don't believe in that god, therefore I choose to judge right here and now.
jrl, I'm pretty sure that quote is documented as coming from Jesus himself, and includes context. It is not just a random quote that could be interpreted in any other way. It is also a shining example of how the church does not practice what it preaches. If you are a believer in the faith, then you are left only with the understanding that the church is violating the principles of Christ himself, which means they are a false church. Otherwise, if you have decided that you can interpret the meaning and context of the bible differently as to allow you to support the amassing of wealth, but still somehow make it to heaven, then you don't really believe in the teachings of Christ either.
oh chris you choose to judge by your OWN moral standards since when did you become the moral authority of the universe? oh and 1st century christians did sell what they had and gave it to the apostles for dispensation. all in the community were taken care of. oh and if your gonna qoute the bible give a book chap and verse
apples-n-oranges, whose moral standards should I use to judge, if not my own? What a silly statement! I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but we are living in the 21st century now. It seems that after 20 centuries, the followers of Christ have lost their way. Thank you for admitting that the Christians in the 1st century were able to follow Christ. If only we could convince the Christians of today to do the same thing, then all in our communities would be taken care of.
apples-n-oranges... First century doesn't count. There was no such thing as private land ownership until the plagues ravaged European populations well into the Middle Ages, and the beginning of Renaissance Europe, about 1480 AD. Prior to that the lands were considered " The Commons ". When the Plague hit areas and killed off the labor force to provide food, the serfs left living were fewer in number, and thus more valued as a population. Private food plots took over from " The Commons ", the survivors of the plagues being elevated in social status. During the Middle Ages, there was but one Christian Church in Europe, lead by it's Pope, ( sometimes a couple of Popes ). With the Reformation, and Renaissance, and the concept of private property, the concept of "modern kings" and countries, we moved as a species to the world we have today. Europe in the earlier Middle Ages was a forested, plague infested, war torn, illiterate continent, quite distinct from today, and modern social demands on leadership.
If you don't know your piece of @!$%# book well enough that you need help with it, you really don't have much an opinion to begin with.
If you're such an expert on the sky fairy and his book, why don't you tell us which genealogy of jesus is the real one? There are 2 aren't there and they don't match, do they?
So which is the real one and why is one false one in your piece of @!$%# bible?
Please educate us, genius.
Conjuring Cat,
So it's ok that the cc has it's deficiencies because they are not as bad or just as bad as the other denomination?
That's really no way to judge your denomination. They espouse that they have set a high bar but they really have done it in words only.
i cant educate illiterate ppl like you, if someone is gonna tell ppl what the bible says they had better have references to prove thier claim ie book chp ver, anyone can claim the bible says convert or kill em, prove it i didnt make the statement so i m not the one needing to provide ref. dorket
chris if we go by our own moral standards then, what if mine says im stronger than you so if i take what you have thats ok because your weak and the strongest should survive, that work for you? no we have a just God who provides moral guidance. sadly we dont always follow it, but God made us and he realizes we will fall short from time to time and is willing to forgive us if we are sorry.
apples-n-oranges, Then your morals are way off. You see, in modern society, we have laws. And laws supersede our morals. They are the product of collective reasoning that our society is founded upon. We don't need a book to provide moral guidance. Notice I say a book, because nobody has proven that they have received anything from any god. The book is fallacious, and rife with conflict. Now if you fall short of the law, then you are punished as defined by the law. That's why we have the law, because moral standards are not equal from theology. They all claim the high ground, hence the need for law, which is agreed upon by collective groups of humans.
wow really? our laws supercede our morals? laws are not always moral, look at abortion, oh your worried about children being abused which is good but what about 50 million children killed since roe v wade? and as far as the law goes if i get away with it then what does the law matter, so your saying some politician who makes the law is the moral standard?
In other words apples-n-oranges doesnt know @!$%# about garbage called christianity.
Thanks for proving my point.
Apples "chris if we go by our own moral standards then, what if mine says im stronger than you so if i take what you have thats ok because your weak and the strongest should survive, that work for you?"
you just described the christian world mentality.
I would like to believe that you graduated high school, and therefore have even the most basic understanding of American history, if not European world history...and how christians have, since their inception, gone about the world and taken whatever they wanted as their own, often at the barrel of a gun...and afterward claimed "we won it fair and square".
Do you know what Manifest Destiny is? Or that the creation of the US required the slaughter of the natives in order to "claim" this land...and later, the wars with England, France and Spain to declare our independence from the very people who financed the exploration and creation of the US?
Im not calling you a hypocrite, im saying...perhaps you're just ignorant of reality.
Maybe after you're done contemplating our existence...we can then discuss how we use the poorest nations of the world as our slave labor, so that americans can have endless supplies of cheap crap.
But I imagine, that too has nothing to do with stronger/bigger taking advantage of smaller/weaker...right?
apples-n-oranges, simply put, YES.
Read this slowly.
If you decide that something is moral, but society decides that it is illegal, law trumps morals. If you get caught, you get punished according to law.
If you decide that something is not moral, but society has deemed it to be legal, then you are free to exercise your morality by not doing it. If others choose to do it, then they are abiding the law, and their own morals. You cannot force others to accept your morals.
Correct. We live in a republic, where a group of elected officials are given the power to make laws and approve proposed laws which are designed to advance society. That's the system of government that this country was founded under. If you want to live in a one religion society, move somewhere else. I'm not sure what else you would like anyone to say, but here in these United States of America, that is how things have worked for 237 years. This should not be a surprise to anyone who went to school and learned basic civics.
ChrisFromCincy,
I'll make sure to tell the surviving Civil Rights leaders your thoughts on the subject.
What about anything that I said would be offensive to Civil Rights Leaders? Slavery was legal in thee US at one point. I am free to not own slaves if I choose. How can that be twisted to be offensive?
Well I was referring more to Jim Crowe laws than slavery itself - but either works. Slavery was legal, a person was free to not own slaves, but slaves are not free to not be slaves. Slavery is immoral, yet your position is to say that it doesn't matter the immorality of something as long as it is legal. Which I believe is offensive to many people.
The legal punishment for homosexuality in Iran is death. Is the morality of that consequence inconsequential?. I would say no, what would you say?
chris what if the law says do it or go to jail whether you think its moral or not?
HChris and apples-n-oranges, name one law that is being proposed that would force you to do something against your will. And allowing others to do something does not count, such as abortion or gay marriage.
What is your question about Jim Crowe laws? Nobody is forcing you to segregate anyone, merely allowing it. I disagree with it, but it was the law at the time, and moot today. Slavery was legal, but you had the right to not own slaves if your morals said otherwise. Just as you had the right to build a single toilet for all people to use if you wanted. IT WAS LEGAL!
Then slavery became illegal.
You could keep slaves, and violate the law as long as you did not get caught. It is immoral to me, but not to others. I cannot force anyone else to accept my morality though. If they get caught, they get penalized by law. LAW TRUMPS MORALS.
What's the question?
You realize we are talking about slavery? People as property. Slavery. Yes, a person had the right to not own slaves, but slaves had no rights at all. So, it's not an issue of being free to own slaves or free to not own slaves. It's an issue of being FREE. It is immoral for me to allow a legal system to exist that perpetuates and validates the physical bondage of a human being to another.
My God teaches me that all people are created in his image. That we are all of such great worth to him that he died for us. That I ought to love my neighbor and even my enemy as much as I love myself.
Law does not trump morality. Morality is the foundation of every good law. Immorality the foundation of every bad law.
Your bible endorses slavery also. What's your point?
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever. Leviticus 25:44-46
Oh boy, here we go.
I'm a Christian, friend. So when you quote verses from the Old Testament regarding laws, you have to understand the history of my religion, which you and so many other atheists obviously don't.
So, to an ancient civilization enslaving anybody and everybody was no big deal even their own people. This passage isn't so much condoning slavery as setting limits on it - If you have slaves, don't enslave your own people.
In the New Testament, Jesus who is the Messiah (Christ - hence we are called Christians) says essentially "All the laws of the prophets can be summed up in two commandments - Love God, and love everyone else." We are all to be servants or slaves (in Greek the word for servant and slave is the same) to each other.
Paul says that Christian slaves should serve their pagan masters with love, so the truth of the love of Jesus would not be diminished. They were to be witnesses of faith and love to their masters.
Even then, in his letter to Philemon, Paul urges Philemon to free his slave Onesimus. He says that if Onesimus still owes Philemon a debt, he, Paul, will pay it. Early Christian communities often pooled their money together to buy slaves out of bondage.
So what we have is a progression. In Leviticus we have a law saying only some people can be slaves (which by the way was usually a slavery of debt - a person would sell themselves into slavery to pay off a debt) the Levitical laws say that Jews should not have Jewish slaves. Then we have Jesus saying we ought to love one another. Followed by Paul telling slaves to witness to their masters. Finally Paul even urges a fellow Christian to free his slave and if he will not, Paul will buy him and free him.
Think of it like Mathematics. You don't start teaching a second grader calculus. You teach counting, then addition and subtraction and so on and so forth until you get to calculus and beyond. This is like that.
So, in the future, I really would appreciate it if you wouldn't just do a quick google search to find a verse that supports your position without being fully informed of what you are actually speaking about. I know that is the way these types of forums often work - resist the temptation. Thanks.
Wasn't this a script from SouthPark?
What happened? Sounds like the Tea Party is taking up residency in Rome, as well.
But really.........how long to they plan to remain in the dark ages and allow their Priests to rape little boys? It's been going on for years and all those years while it was a mortal sin to eat a burger on Friday, it was OK to abuse children? The Catholic Church is every bit as backward as the Evangelist churches are.
carol o mi: Your right, the catholic church is just as corrupt as Washington DC, but yet people give millions of dollars to the church to help bail out Pedophile priests.
The Catholic church is a fraud. It's demise is soon to happen. Even the Bible condemns its actions, and will receive God's judgement.
Well that depends on which bible "translation" one is reading. There are thousands of them and every one of them has an agenda which just makes the Bible a political statement.
Hell is near old man, suffer greatly ! May you and your cult burn !
Thomas Reese, expert from Georgetown? yeah, the same Georgetown that Obama had cover up the crosses, real credible.
As for you John Algarme....God will judge you 10 fold
reallysethreally ....... You might want to check your facts.
mcmamabear, Tealibanis don't need no steenking facts! They've got Faux Nooz...
reallysethreally you are doomed you spoke ill of their god.
No other religion in history has done more to debase and undermine the humanity of it's followers. Taking money from the poor and outcast, and persisting in promulgating stupidity whilst hiding it's pedophiles behind the cloak of priesthood is not Godly behavior.
It's main goal has consistently been to increase its riches on the backs of the poor, and feed them ridiculous doctrines designed to increase its coffers while its priests prey on the innocent.
Humanity would be well served if the Catholic Church collapsed under the weight of its sins.
"Taking money from the poor and outcast?" WTF? You win the idioic comment of the day award. The Catholic church helps those who have no one else, many who are not Catholics. I live in an affluent resort town, and the only organization who will help the poor, unwed mothers (most not Catholic), the drug addicted teens who were kicked out of their homes (most not Catholic), is the Catholic church.
It's ironic- many affluent people send their kids to Catholic school for a better education- because they can afford to. But the church will allow the poor kids to attend as well who can't pay.
Casual - I was a student at those Catholic Schools - yes a good education - but the "poor kids" were paraded at the front of the class - where the nuns told everyone how good they were to allow these poor deprived waifs the privilege of being there
So quit talking about something you know nothing of
And by the way my family came from Lithuania - one nun called my mother a "dirty red" - when I related this to mom - she said "what's a dirty red" being second generation and my grandparents from a farming community had no clue what this crazy nun was talking about
By the way this was said in front of my entire class!
Oh I think you can find other churches and denominations that debase and undermine the humanity of their followers. You can find them on TV on Sunday mornings and 24/7 on their very own cable networks.
Hey Simple, you might want to check out the Southern Baptist Convention and the first reason for its very creation. I'd say a church that was created to promote the Biblical morality of slavery is pretty damn debasing, wouldn't'cha say?...
"Barbara Adams"- back at ya- I went to Catholic school too and the nuns treated the poor students equally. The problem is, a few students who are not Catholic and go to Catholic school expect the Catholics not to be Catholic. If nuns offend you, don't go to Catholic school- what was stopping you from going to public school after the nun supposedly made her comment?? Hmmmmm
Barbara, I was one of those poor kids who attended Notre Dame parochial school. I was never paraded in front of the school to show their good deeds. The sisters cared as much for me as they did the children who came from the wealthier families. Casual. you can say what you want to say, but there will always be folks like Barbara who will come up with something to belittle you. I have to agree with you coming from a poor family the church helped me and my siblings out greatly.
Barbara: Chip on your shoulder? Nuns of long ago held many unfounded beliefs. That is no longer true. This from an ex-seminarian who left the Church for decades, only to return because of the good works I saw performed. Our church assists homeless families, cancer patients, the elderly, people suffering through divorce, the hungary, orphans, and countless others. You only see what you want to see and you are blinded by your bitterness. Should Law and Mahoney be in prison? I think yes they should. Is the Church antiquated in many of its ideas, such as birth control and gay rights? Yes they are. However, you do not succeed in making change by destroying it. All you accomplish is to put an end to the good work it does.
Jatty - Hell no - no chip on my shoulder - just recounting what I experienced - 12 years of a great education 3 years of Latin which I believe is no longer taught - pity since it is a base of many of our English words
Then went on to University of Chicago - graduated with an Economics degree
But what I have witnessed from Mexico City - to Rio De Janeiro - to Rome - to New York was an opulence of a magnitude that was not necessary nor was something Jesus would have wanted or condoned
The Franciscan Order to me are the true followers - they take the vow of poverty
And as far as reading bitterness into my remarks - try again - I consider all formalized religions benefitting only the people who promulgate them
The birds at my feeder - and all of the wonders of nature is all the god I need and have needed
One more thing - why was mary Magdelan cast aside when Jesus wanted her to lead his flock - instead of the group of mysoginists that surrounded him?
Barbara,
I like your story about your family from Lithuania. Lithuania was a Communist country, correct? Hence the 'dirty red' comment. That nun was totally out of line to judge a person based on their country of origin.
Based on your story I believe that you can identify with Catholics and other Christians when they are judged by the acts of others within their religion. I have read posts saying that Catholics support the deeds of the pedophile priests simply because they are of the same religion. I'm glad that you can see their perspective, since your family was judged unfairly.
Barbara, Both of my children are taking Latin. This is my son's second year at it in 7th grade, and the same for my daughter in 10th. It is still being taught, and my kids love it. This is in Public school also, just for reference.
CasualUSTaxpayer... If the average age of nuns in the US is in their mid 70's, you must have gone to school a number of decades ago. I think the number of nuns in the US are less than 5000. which is a figure that doesn't supply a number of educators per school. Considering the number of nuns which might be found in a hospital setting, fewer educators yet. There's been a very large number of changes since the 1960's and prior, brought about mostly by advances in communications technology.
And you see only what you want to see. Has the catholic religion helped some people? Of course. But then there are those incidents, those oh, so many incidents... In my hometown, virtually all of the local health care facilities were gobbled up by a hospital and "health care" network run by a bunch of nuns. It has since built luxurious facilities that the nuns are so proud of (and through which they get all the free health care they want). I can tell you stories of how this nun-run operation has treated people, those who are working poor and have no health insurance. Because they are working poor, they don't "qualify" for medicaide or any other type of government-funded treatment. They end up going to this nun-run cabal and are given a huge bill which they are told to pay. They try as hard as they can, sending in whatever they can, but that's enough for these goodly sisters. They want their money and they want it now. They send letters threatening to go to collection agencies and to lawyers. These poor people plead with the nuns but to no avail. Yes, that's what the catholic church does to people. And it doesn't matter if it did a lot for others, no charge provided. That doesn't excuse the catholic church from treating people like money-making fodder. That's using the but-Hitler-built-the-Autobahn fallacious excuse.
The only ones with chips on their shoulders are catholics who will do anything to defend their religion knowing full well the horrible things it has done and continues to do. They don't like having their crutch pulled out from under them. When the terrible things catholics do are presented, those who can't survive without their religion instantly scream "persecution."
forget the conclave, put them all in an autoclave for a few hours bet they will quit banarama and get on with some serious dope smoking, i mean pope stoking, a, what the hell black smoke, white smoke as long as they are well done
Amateur hour? I know that feeling. We've had amateur hour in the White House for going on 5 years now
Because EVERYTHING is really about Obama, isn't it, Tealibani?...
Did you do your usual routine this morning, Cat? Wake up, kiss Obama's picture, make coffee.
Said by someone who genuflects to Donald Trump, Louie Gohmert, and Frau Bachmann in that order, I'm certain...
CC, don't forget Glenn Beck and Mush Blimpblob.
Leroy, please! I have a weak stomach... :D
Oh, come on leroy, you couldn't come up with a cute, childish nickname for Beck? Maybe you can ask your 5 year old cousin for help.
The election is over. You are in the minority, get over it or leave.
Eternally subservient.
Not sure how we can have a story that deals with allegations suddenly become validated through heresay, thus requiring the new Pope to counter threats, real and imagined.
I am not sure why everyone is surprised by the revelation that there is corruption in the Catholic Church. Throughout its history it has revealed the depths of its underhandedness politically going as far as to have rivals assassinated. Just one instance of this was the knights Templar after the Crusades.
The Knights Templar had come back from the Crusades as a very public and very powerful force both militarily and financially. The Vatican at the time saw them as competition for control and a threat so had them arrested then killed and their finances seized by the church.
From the Book burnings after Romes fall to the Spanish Inquisition the Church has always put the mandate of follow me or else at its forefront. Its not a organization of God, it has and always be an organization of men in power. Its funny that no one has bothered to look into where all the gold that the Vatican sports comes from. From its statues to the filigree in the cathedrals I do believe the Catholic Church holds a large majority of the gold in the known world.
The biggest fault in the Church as an organization is with all the money coming into it they have never really been set up to balance the budgets of it all, no accountability, no real organization to handle the finances so its not really a surprise that through its history there's been bribes, payouts, and pure out right thefts.
Whether the religion is a scam, or con job, or whatever, the religion isn't at fault, its the men running the organization that will cause its downfall. The people will move on as they have for tens of thousands of years. Religions come and go. this one is an oddity because it used fear its tool to grow. From controlling Kings to creating a devil; the religion was based on fear more than inspiration.
Catholics just happen to be the current proclaimed "enemy" of the Zionist media. Of course,along with muslims, asians and africans. The Zionists salivate over the notion of an "enemy" of Judiasm that they can demean. They seem incapable of comprehending their past - every century or two the world gets fed up with them and there is another purge of the Jews which the ones who stir up the messes neatly evade, leaving the decent Jews to bear the brunt of their greed and fanatacism.
David, here, let me help you loosen your tinfoil hat a little...
CasualUsTaxpayer, I was raised Catholic, I believe in God, I know about the Catholic charities and the Catholic schools and how many dollars are spent on homeless and poor.
But, when the an Archdioceses in Califonia spends $660 million to hide, protect and defend a group of child molesters, that is something I can not understand or defend as Catholic.
Time for a new religion.
So all the other good works just get tossed in the trash bin by the lame brain mass media, and you support that as a Catholic? Are you Catholic?
Why do the good things necessarily have to get trashed? Why can't the catholic charities continue under a different name? Are the people who donate to them going to refuse to give money to the poor just because there is no longer a catholic church?
Leroy, why should we have to give up our church? Should the SBC be disbanded because it was founded to promote slavery (and after the Civil War, Jim Crow and racial etiquette)? Should be Anglican Church be disbanded because it was created so Henry VIII could get an ecclesiastical divorce? Should the Mormon Church be disbanded because Joseph Smith was a con artist? The Roman Church needs cleaned up, not disbanded...
I don't think they make a strong enough cleaner to handle THAT job CC!
Dave <<<>>> That $660M was not for coverup, it was for compensation, counceling, etc. and you either do know that or should know that.
The church hierarchy is in an uproar because the flock has started questioning the earth-bound "mysteries of faith." They never saw that coming.
Anita, do you even know what the "mystery of faith" really is?...
I know what it is, more BS to keep the masses ignorant and tithing.
As if its your @!$%#ing place to say conjuring?
Typical christian @!$%#.
No, the only ones trashing the good works of the church are the lame brained mass media and their "flock".
That being said, get rid of the bad priests and stop letting the church be media fodder. I actually don't blame the church for not exposing all to the media- what major corporation or Hollywood star would?
The problem with that is that it allows conspiracy theories to fester. Whenever an institution goes in for secrecy, it invites conspiracy theorists to have a field day at its expense. This is only worse in the Internet age when all it takes is a smartphone and a wifi hookup to start a wordwide rumor. No, the Church must go in a direction completely counterintuitive to its bureaucracy; open everything up to be seen. Yes, the Church therefore would run the risk of exposing other bad acts, but at least it would draw the fangs of all but the most Alex-Jones-like of the conspiracy theorists...
When you don't get rid of the few bad apples...you have to remove the whole tree.
And there it is in a nutshell; the Church has to get real and understand that deliberate opacity do nothing to help it and much to harm it. Secrecy in any organization leads to accusations of clandestine monstrousness; witness all the rumors that exist about, say the Masons, Skull and Bones, etc. etc. etc. In a world dominated by conspiracy theories and (often justifiable) cynicism, keeping an organization closed--any organization--is practically an overt invitation to charges of conspiracy and collusion...
Tracey, I doubt many of you realize it, but the Vatican drama is ALREAY in THE BOOK.
So now they say Ratso Ratzinger will be honored as Pope Emeritus, in additon to living a cushy life while being waited on hand and foot day and night in his Vatican City pied a terre - all thanks to the devotions of the world's Catholics, most of whom can barely afford to feed their own families. Plus, he will wear white the rest of his life. Maybe it should be more of a bone white - kind of off-virginal - in recognition of the top-down crumbling away of an institution that seems to be on the verge of extinction, due to rampant hypocrisy.
The time has finally come too put an end too this Gothic cult of pointy hat, dress wearing, Latin gibbering child molesters.
It will be the greatest day on this planet when they turn that palace into a museum for the art that was installed within.
That is all it really ever was, I had the chance too visit the Vatican back in 1981 and it is truly a remarkable building of great works, but as far as the rest....get rid of it.
The same with the Queen and all that Royal monarchy BS that lives off the poor people of England and other nations like Canada.
The hell with her and all these pointy hat child f---kers......I can't stand any of them.
Give me a stick, and I will turn into a weapon.
Give me a stone, and I will turn it into a weapon.
Give me a pope, and I will give you a child molester.
"Freeman", get rid of tradition and charity and all you have left is a soulless, selfish communist state. Is that what you strive for?
Casual US Taxpayer
Well first of all I am an Atheist so I do not think about such things as souls, and as for charity humanity can give without having too be driven by any religious cult.
As for the selfish aspect....I think that most of these people who work within these cults are very well off and live very good off the money or donations they ask for all the time from hard working poor and middle class people just so they can win a free ticket from the pope into that mindless fairy tale kingdom they call heaven.
and apparently they must be selfish enough too think there god will forgive them for screw-ing little young children right under that huge man made house of god they like too call it.
Now the last part of your question:
Most nations are already running under a socialistic or communistic state anyway so I do not think loosing this entity would change that much.
So if tradition means stopping all this child molestation, taking money from people then hiding within a state which lives by its own communistic ways inside of a country and keeps all secrets of what they do from the those who have faith in them.
Then yes I say get rid of this pile of stinking sh-it once and for all.
I hope that clarified my comment for you just a tad bit more.
We do not need this entity anymore then we need more I Pods.
Says who?
You casual?
Who the @!$%# are you to say?
I can't even believe that they have the nerve to fight over contraception offered people who work for the church. How hypocritical. After living for a few years in Rome, I am now a recovering catholic.
the Catholic Church is surely spiraling downward.......nice place to visit...but I wouldn't want to live there.......
At least you hope so. Whatever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I would like to live there, nice, clean, and so very tainted. . .All those young men with BIG CXXKs, every night of the week, including SUNDAYS, as well as Sunday Mornings at 5 AM. . .!
Good Job - Keep it coming! I await the next in order!!!
:) :) :) :)
Bless you, and your young faithful delegates!