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Yonhap / EPA
South Korean soldiers stand guard in the demilitarized zone at the border between North and South Korea on Feb. 27.
The United States and China reached a deal that "significantly expands" U.N. sanctions on North Korea for its third nuclear test, eliciting a renewed threat by Pyongyang on Tuesday to scrap an armistice that ended the 1950-53 Korean War.
North Korea also said it would sever a military "hotline" with the United States if South Korea and Washington pressed on with two-month-long war games.
The proposed new measures would explicitly ban the sale to Pyongyang of items coveted by North Korea's ruling elite, such as yachts and racing cars, a council diplomat said on condition of anonymity. The draft also aims to make it more difficult for Pyongyang to move funds around the world.
China's U.N. ambassador, Li Baodong, told Reuters the 15-nation Security Council was aiming for a Thursday vote on a draft sanctions resolution, which was agreed to by Washington and Beijing after three weeks of negotiations.
China is North Korea's closest ally and has a history of resisting tough sanctions on its neighbor. The Chinese envoy made clear that Beijing was displeased by North Korea's Feb. 12 nuclear test - its third since 2006 - though he cautioned against responding too harshly.
"We support action taken by the council, but we think that action should be proportionate, should be balanced and focused on bringing down the tension and focusing on the diplomatic track," Li said.
"A strong signal must be sent out that a nuclear test is against the will of the international community," he added.
U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice said after a closed-door meeting of the Security Council that the new draft resolution "builds up, strengthens and significantly expands the scope of the strong U.N. sanctions already in place."
Dr. Sung-Yoon Lee, a professor of Korean studies at the Fletcher School at Tufts University, provides insight into how sanctions would impact alleged illicit business that benefits the North Korean regime.
"The sanctions contained in this resolution will significantly impede the ability of North Korea to develop further its illicit nuclear and ballistic missile programs," she said.
She said the new sanctions would target "the illicit activities of North Korean diplomatic personnel, North Korean banking relationships, (and) illicit transfers of bulk cash."
"North Korea will be subject to some of the toughest sanctions imposed by the United Nations," she told reporters.
The council diplomat said that once the resolution is approved, states will be obligated to expel any North Korean agent of a U.N.-blacklisted entity and will be required to inspect suspicious North Korean cargo on their territory. Such inspections are currently voluntary under existing U.N. rules.
It will toughen up rules for the oft-flouted ban on luxury goods for North Korea and urge states to exercise vigilance over North Korean diplomats to be sure they are not engaging in illicit activities, the diplomat said.
He added that the agreed U.S.-Chinese draft resolution was unlikely to undergo any major changes before it is approved.
Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin was quoted by Russian media as saying Moscow was pleased the draft resolution leaves the door open to a renewal of the stalled six-party aid-for-disarmament talks between the two Koreas, the United States, China, Russia and Japan.
Threats renewed
Developments in New York led to a new volley of bellicose rhetoric from Pyongyang.
"We will completely nullify the Korean armistice," the North's KCNA news agency said, quoting the Korean People's Army Supreme Command spokesman.
The youngest son of Kim Jong Il succeeded his late father in 2011, becoming the third member of his family to rule the unpredictable and reclusive communist state.
The spokesman called the U.S.-South Korean military exercise "a systematic act of destruction aimed at the Korean armistice." The two Koreas remain technically at war since the 1950-53 conflict ended in a truce rather than a peace treaty.
About 200,000 Korean troops and 10,000 U.S. forces are expected to be mobilized for their defensive "Foal Eagle" exercise, under the Combined Forces Command, which began on March 1 and goes until the end of April. Separate computer-simulated drills called "Key Resolve" start on March 11.
North Korea, officially called the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK), has made much of hotlines with the South and the United States over the years, but has not been known ever to have used them in times of increased tension.
The latest threats were reminiscent of previous periods of high tension on the Korean peninsula.
In 1996, under pressure from severe famine after floods and in the midst of maneuvering with the United States over its nuclear program, Pyongyang announced it would no longer abide by the armistice and sent troops into the demilitarized zone between the North and the South.
In 2009, after carrying out an underground nuclear test, Pyongyang announced again that it no longer considered itself bound by the terms of the armistice.
North Korea's previous nuclear tests, in 2006 and 2009, prompted the Security Council to impose sanctions that included a ban on the import of nuclear and missile technology, an arms embargo and a ban on luxury goods imports.
There are 17 North Korean entities, including banks and trading companies, on the U.N. blacklist, and nine individuals, all linked to North Korea's nuclear and missile programs. U.N. diplomats say many more entities and individuals could be subject to international asset freezes and travel bans.
In January, the Security Council passed a resolution expanding U.N. sanctions against North Korea due to its December rocket launch and warned Pyongyang against further launches or nuclear tests. North Korea responded by threatening a new atomic detonation, which it then carried out the following month.
Beijing has supported all previous sanctions resolutions against Pyongyang but only after working hard to dilute proposed measures in negotiations on the texts. It has been concerned that tougher sanctions could further weaken the North's economy and prompt refugees to flood into China.
U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said on Tuesday that Washington hoped North Korea would engage in negotiations to resolve world concerns instead of threatening to scrap the 50-year-old truce with the South.
"Rather than threaten to abrogate, the world would be better served if they (North Korea) would engage in legitimate dialogue," Kerry said during a visit to Qatar.
"Our preference is not to brandish threats, but for peaceful negotiations," he added.
Related:
Kerry dismissive of Rodman's North Korea visit
North Korea warns US commander of 'miserable destruction' over military drills
Huge military exercise highlights 'rebalancing of US policy toward Asia'
This story was originally published on Tue Mar 5, 2013 9:51 AM EST
Copyright 2013 Thomson Reuters. Click for restrictions.
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Unless you're prepared to actually back up your threats, making them only makes you look weak. NK knows it would be obliterated if it attacked the South (so would the South, but I'm sure NK doesn't care about that). What would really happen is a war between China and the US on Korean soil, and no one wants that.
It's just a matter of time before those nutjobs do something stupid enough to foce everyone into a war.
I'm not sure how much China would intervene for NK anymore after NK thumbed their noses at China recently. Remember, NK is the second axis of evil....
Actually, China's been getting increasingly nervous and irritated at North Korea. I could actually see China breaking away from a formal military alliance with NK. China knows if NK attacks SK, US would come to enforce the 53 treaty and US interests in SK, and if they entered the war, US economic relations with China would suffer greatly, including the potential loss of financial assests (US debts), which is one of the main reasons their economy hasn't tanked. China has even supported UN sanctions against NK.
While China and US are politically opposed, China bears the brunt of the loss in any war with the US. US air and sea superiority can and would wreak havoc with China's ground forces.
NK doesn't care for anything but themselves, and this Napoleon complex will ruin ties with even their allies.
the real problem is starvation; N. Korea has been living on food aid from the United States for over 10 years, they have demanded(not asked) for a 30% increase in free food from America; the demand is still pending; so they threaten war to get the administration to approve more food, their currency is not accepted anywhere in the world, they have spent all of their disposal currency on arms, nuclear weapons and a large standing army, China ships them oil, America ships them food, the country is a basket case!
Yes China isn't happy with NK, but they will NOT abandon support for them. China absolutely does NOT WANT a U.S. backed unified Korea neighboring right next to them. Look how they treat Taiwan, and they're tiny compared to NK. They won't let that alliance go, no matter what.
saxon: We haven't sent them any food since 2009.
Quick somebody call Dennis Rodman....
China does NOT want a US-allied Korea on its doorstep. This is true. They're also terrified of a flood of North Korean refugees pouring across the border.
... But that's hardly a worse proposition than fighting a war against the world pre-eminent military superpower and their strongest trading partner on behalf of a country that neither their government, their people, nor the rest of the world likes (and a war that N. Korea started, to boot). A war with the US for the sake of North Korea is the worst possible scenario for China, even if they seriously think they could win. They have every reason to abandon their support of North Korea as soon as things get hot.
At this point, it is unlikely that China would come to North Korea's aid if the North attacked South Korea. People in the West see NK as a sort of puppet of the Chinese, but nothing could be further from the truth. While Americans tend to see Orientals as a single cohesive race, that is incredibly far from the truth. There is no love lost between Koreans and the Chinese, especially the Chinese military. They see the North (and South) Koreans as sub-human "ape men" exactly as the Japanese saw the Chinese (and everyone else) prior to and during WWII.
North Korea is a rogue state and China would agree to that as quickly as anyone else. Chinese influence in NK is minimal since it stopped all military aid years ago. Now the only aid China sends is a small amount of food aid (in the form of "old" rice) and a trickle of fuel oil. On the other hand, China is more and more reinforcing its border with NK with more and more troops. At this point the Chinese fear a popular uprising or a Soviet-style governmental collapse. Either would send hundreds of thousands of NK refugees into southern China where they would cause major economic and infrastructure problems.
If NK were to attack SK, there would be a huge amount of damage --- probably destroying SK as we know it today. The whole Inchon-Seoul Corridor and the militarized places along the DMZ would simply go away. NK would follow an initial attack with a massive invasion. We would find it difficult to support ROK troops in contact because we would likely have to do it from Japan (ala much of the Korean War.) And we would find it extremely difficult to attack most targets in NK because they are incredibly hardened and a huge number of the hardened sites are actually decoys.
But China would likely watch and issue stern warnings to the US while making backdoor deals with the US and UN. They would be very happy to have a South Korea as a neighbor, but they are smart enough to see that it is unlikely to happen.
Even the South Koreans, especially the young professionals, are extremely wary of any "Korean reunification." They watch the tremendous burden that the Germans absorbed when they incorporated East Germany with its poorly educated and trained workforce, its ailing industry, and its massive power shortages and pollution. NK would be much harder. The workforce is not only far less educated and trained than the East Germans, malnutrition has made the average North Korean 2 inches shorter and around 15 IQ points lower than the average South Korean. North Korean industry is almost non-existent and pollution problems are even worse than East Germany. NK does not even have enough arable land to feed itself under the best conditions. All it has is a huge military establishment which would be of no value in a reunification. Most young professional South Koreans see reunification, under any conditions, as a way to destroy South Korea.
PS @Saxon, NK has not received food aid from the US or the UN in several years now. Period.
As usual Chris, your detailed analysis of the geopolitics and strategic limitations of the region are greatly appreciated.
I can't help but wonder if you overestimate the North Koreans' military capacity, though. Surely they could cause massive damage to South Korea, but the South Korean military is not harmless, and with limited supplies and technology (and facing US air superiority) I have to question whether the North Korean military could so easily take and hold South Korean cities so easily. Invasions are not easy, and North Korea's military hasn't seen real action in quite some time, correct? Do you think it would really just come down to numbers?
Man, what else did Rodman and 'Mini- Me' talk about?! Now he's acting all big & tough.
N Korea has gone far beyond its freshness dating- time to take them out back the woodshed for a spankin'
Good job Barry..... Dennis sure did well letting Jong know just how weak of a President & Commander-in-Chief you really are.... now he's going to take advantage of that weakness..........
I can't see China wanting a war. They have gotten a taste of the coin and they like it. We owe them a ton of money, and I have a feeling that a declaration of war isn't going to get you paid. In fact China is tired of NK's bull@!$%# as much as the rest of the world. I thought Rodman had this handled anyway? Actually what could wind up happening is the US, Russia, & China, all line up against them and tell them " Hey STFU. "
I think that you're right, SF. As big as it is, NK is probably unable to launch an occupation of the south. Such an undertaking requires tremendous logistical capabilities that are probably beyond their capabilities. Plus, although the US has a relatively small number of troops based in SK, we can launch an intensive response from our forces throughout the region. The real risk is the damage that the north can inflict on major cities in SK in the hours/days before the north is defeated.
Steve-446003
Thank you for that insightful observation and analysis. Now please go back to FOX News and let the adults interact.
The problem is proximity. Seoul is within artillery range of the North Koreans and much too close to provide much warning of impending attack. I agree that this would not be a war of occupation...that takes resources which N.K. simply doesn't have. It would merely be a war of destruction. The end result would be the United States and China trying to pick up the pieces. The US because of our alliance with South Korea and China because of the refugee problem that would insure.
That's all worse case stuff. More likely than not, this is more North Korean, "look at me...don't ignore me" rhetoric...they've only been doing it for almost 60 years.
Good. We live in a different world with different weapons than we did in 1950. We could obliterate North Korea without ever putting a boot on the ground, and it's time we did. The entire region and the entire world would be safer if we ended their existence. Why wait for them to get missile technology? They want to end the truce? Let's give them exactly what they want.
P.S. Dennis Rodman should be jailed as soon as he returns to the U.S. He's a traitor, besides being a complete idiot.
AG 99: technically you are correct; however on April 12, 2012, the congressional budget office reported that 151 million tons of grain was shipped to South Korea in 2011, where it was then shipped to North Korea, in order to disguise the aid, since after the nuclear test in 2009, we said we would not provide any more food stuffs. North Korea must import over 500 million tons of grains(rice, corn, wheat,soy beans) per year just to keep from starvation; the food stuffs are supplied by the west ,with the U.S. providing 33% of all the food stuffs to North Korea.
Something must be wrong Dennis Rodman the new envoy for the Secretary of State already said North Koreans are the good people they love basketball like Obama.
@SFAccountant,
The reason that the North Koreans would initially prevail is that all along the DMZ they have prepared "peek and shoot" indirect fire positions (meaning caves and tunnels on the back side of mountains and hills) that are pre-surveyed (meaning that they are carefully sighted in using some very complex manual procedures) to hit South Korean targets. There are literally thousands of artillery pieces, heavy mortars, guided and unguided rockets and missiles, and various other nasties.
In the event of an all-out attack, this NK firepower would simply destroy the entire Seoul-Inchon Corridor and every target of importance along the DMZ. This would include the elimination of around 150,000 ROKA troops and around 20,000 of 28,000 American troops. That is why these forces are called "tripwire" or "sacrificial" forces. Military planners always assume that all forward-deployed forces would be battered to the point that they would be combat ineffective in any such attack.
This would be followed by three prongs of attack. A human wave attack along the mountains in the east and the marshy farmlands of the west and an armored "blitzkrieg" attack on a narrow central strip. And you're talking about the fourth largest standing army in the world.
And before you think that NK has a proimitive "rust bucket" military, remember that an advanced diesel-electric submarine sunk the ROK Chongnan --- a state of the art anti-submarine warfare corvette on full combat alert. NK has a number of these advanced diesel-electric subs that are just like the old Kilo-class Russian subs except that they have a rubberized anti-sonar coating and the ability to make their own oxygen and power from seawater using fuel cells. They can lay on the bottom in the mud of the Yellow Sea or Sea of Japan for weeks or even months, rising only when a target has been acquired. The Chinese and Russian subs of this type make a habit of surfacing, undetected, in the midst of carrier battle fleets. Kinda like, "You're it."
The North Koreans have pretty much ceded air supremacy to the South Koreans and Americans, but they have concentrated a lot of forces in anti-ship cruise missiles and submarines and have the capability to use their own SCUD variants to hit American bases in Japan and southern SK. These SCUDs are much more accurate that those in say, Iraq, because the Iranians have supplied both advanced inertial and GPS guidance systems to the North Koreans.
But the big thing the NKs have going for them is that since 1953 they have been hardening all their military sites and now present a situation where a) we don't even know where most of their assets are, b) at least a third of all sites we know about are decoys, but we don't know which third, c) there are underground depots with enough supplies for 90 days total combat and up to six months spares and ammunition. All their command and control is undeground and we have little idea where it is. I'm talking about serious caves and tunnels in basalt that are impervious to even bunker-busters and nearby nuclear blasts.
NK also has a huge number of commandos and in-place spies who would attempt to neutralize air bases and ports in the south of South Korea. These are also well within range of NK's SCUDs. All along the NK coast are thousands of Styx-variant anti-ship missiles.
The North Korean military has some high-tech (such as the subs) but mostly they would depend on huge numbers of fanatical soldiers with locally produced AK-74's.
And, like the previous Korean War, the US would expect to be pushed back a huge distance initially, but would try to hold onto air bases and ports in the south to establish a counter-attack. The war would be fought initially with aircraft carriers and aircraft from Japan and Guam. But it would take a minimum of six weeks to assemble even a reasonable counter-attack force. In this six weeks, NK would have time to consolidate and prepare for the attack.
And before the bomb 'em crowd jumps in, you have to remember that the 8th Air Force and RAF during WWII were completely unable to destroy German military production. Things such as tanks and aircraft were being produced in greater numbers at the end of the war than at the beginning. All the "carpet" and "precision" bombing during WWII was a complete waste in Europe. Similarly the B-52 carpet bombing of North Vietnam was an identical failure. We destroyed every building in North Vietnam over two stories in height, but failed to stop them.
The kind of destruction that the hawk posters on here imagine is straight out of the movies. It doesn't happen in real life. In the movies a bomb always kills hundreds of soldiers. In real life a handful are killed and another handful are wounded. We spend around $60,000 to kill each North Vietnamese soldier and I would expect the cost to kill North Koreans would be much higher.
And you have to remember that out military is already worn out from constant deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan. The men are tired and the equipment long overdue for repair, refurbishment, or replacement. Somewhere we need about 5-6 YEARS without the strain of combat to bring our combat readiness back to where it should be. And NK can figure this out just as easily as we can.
Put the crack pipe down...step away from the crack pipe...no one has to get hurt.
North Korea's kinship with China is that of a BRATTY child who has no friends in the world. NK needs a powerful slap and a hardy boot out of China's care just like Rodman needs to understand that he has committed TREASON against the US in his trip to NK and his support of the NK. PS: Has anyone investigated or charged Rodman in that affair? They should!
As to the Cease Fire Treaty, we are still technically at war with NK along with any other Country involved on our side. The Cease Fire Treaty is not a Peace Treaty. China should realize this.
I just feel sorry for the people living in NK, they have suffered way too long for a Government that could careless about them. This needs to end somehow, but I doubt it ever will without bloodshed.
What did Rodman say that pissed them off?
Over react much? Look up treason, he hasn't gone that far yet. He is however, the top contender for the Jane Fonda People's Army Patriot Award (at least Jane was young and stupid).
@Chris-749391#1.20: Seldom see posts based on insight and logic. Yours are. Appreciate it, and hope to see more. Best regards
@OL_Doc: Always appreciate your honesty and good sense. Best regards
.John Kerry and Jane Fonda work together , Kerry was also young and stupid, now Kerry is Secretary of State, Rodman has a brilliant future to take the post..
edvirginia
Clearly so are you...well I don't know if you're young or not. Kerry called a government on a war that was never fought to win. It was a generational meat grinder with no plan. You can hate him all you want but he did his time there...you sound like a swiftboater and you know how credible they turned out to be.
Kerry was young and stupid? In his 20's he graduated from Yale and became an Officer-in-Charge of a Swift Boat in Vietnam. He earned three Purple Hearts and a Silver and Bronze medal on different occasions for showing exceptional leadership and bravery during ambushes and while wounded.
Silver Medal
On February 28, 1969 his Swift Boat was hit by an RPG during an Ambush, it was damaged and he directed the crew to beach it directly where the North Vietnamese had setup the ambush. Kerry himself was the first off the boat to pursue the combatant with the RPG and charging enemy positions. According to his medal citation Kerry "'then led an assault party and conducted a sweep of the area until the enemy had been completely routed.' The mission was judged highly successful for having destroyed numerous targets and confiscated substantial combat supplies while sustaining no casualties. Kerry's commanding officer, Lieutenant George Elliott, joked that he didn't know whether to court-martial him for beaching the boat without orders or give him a medal for saving the crew."
Bronze Medal
Kerry was commanding five swift boats returning to base when they hit underwater mines and got ambushed by heavy fire from both sides of the river. Kerry's boat was lifted into the air throwing one crewman into the water and wouding Kerry in the left arm, another swift boat was completely disabled. While under heavy fire from both sides of the river bank Kerry noticed they were missing a crewman, he commanded the 3 remaining boats to provide suppressing fire on ambush positions while his boat searched for the crewman who was swimming to shore and surrendering to North Vietnamese fighters. Kerry's boat spotted him and Kerry himself hauled him into the boat despite his wounded arm. He then commanded his boat to attach a tow-line to the disabled swift boat and they were able to tow it out of the ambush and to safety. According to the medal citation "Lt. Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain, with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lt. Kerry then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged craft and towed the boat to safety. Lt. Kerry's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the US Naval Service."
On April 22, 1971 Kerry testified before Congress on the state of the Vietnam war. He spoke for two in a very calm yet emotional manner, he visibly moved several members of Congress. Later that day a conversation between Nixon and his aides concerning Kerry and his testimony was recorded and released years later.
Nixon: "Apparently, this fellow, uh, that they put in the front row, is, that you say, the front, according to [White House aide Patrick] Buchanan . . . 'the real star was Kerry.'"
Haldeman: "He is, he did a hell of a job."
Nixon: "He said he was very effective."
Haldeman: "I think he did a superb job at the Foreign Relations Committee yesterday. . . . A Kennedy type—he looks like a, looks like a Kennedy and talks exactly like a Kennedy."
Veterans, politicians, Americans, and even Presidents have credited Kerry's 1971 Testimony with turning the wheels to ending the Vietnam war and saving tens of thousands of American lives. What have you done before you turned 30?
Chris, great analysis, except I would have to disagree with you on our state of readiness, at least as far as our materiel assets go. We're constantly overhauling, upgrading, building, recalling and deploying assets in a quick cycle, with little downtime (usually) to bring equipment back up to mission capable. The US Army has always prided itself on having a constant 80%+ materiel readiness, which is excellent, and this is during wartime.
Well, I certainly can't dispute any of your info Chris, but that still doesn't speak of North Korea's ability to seize and hold enemy territory while the enemy holds air superiority, which will be critical if they really want to accomplish anything besides just killing lots of South Koreans out of spite. I get that it would be a tragedy and a disaster, but I'm just talking hypothetical strategy here. I find Old Doc's comment to be rather compelling:
This is all just for show, nothing to see here. NK is weak and the world knows it, all talk no action. Does anyone else smirk when they announce BS rhetoric like this?
North Korea is like a (mangy) Chihuahua that barks a lot in a display of inflated self-importance.
In the old days this would get them food. Those days are gone idle threats dont work anymore. We finally wised up.
Being insecure won't make other nations tremble.
or better yet www3 with hundreds of nukes and let the planet reset it's self without humanitys bullsh-t
since mankind never seems to learn how to live in peace without greed,power,stupidity etc etc....it's time for a planetary leadership change...we had our chance and blew it.
North Korea is a joke.
go for it then the UN can finish what it started
I wonder what does Dennis Rodman thinks about his new BFF making these threats?
He probably got his talking points from Sean Penn/Hugo Chavez...
NK threatening again......YAWNNNNNNNNN. The excercises started on march 1st. Still no military response from NK.
Hey Kim.....we feel the wind blowing but we dont see any trees falling!!!! We hold military "excercises" with the South but NK explodes a nuclear weapon.....which one seems more of a threat??????
I heard in addition to these threats NK is now closing the unicorn caves to the public...... I wonder if Rodman got a tour...
Kim just caught on to how well hot air and empty threats worked over here and thought he'd give it try.
Time for a big Obama speech!
Most of which the speech will consist of "I blame Republicans"
Man, first an artillery attack, and now they're threatening to continue a sixty year-old war?
What do the North Koreans have against war games, anyway? Are they just mad that we never invite them to play too?
The West ( the US ) should give China the OK take over NK. All NK troops are in the south of the country. They would not be expecting an invasion from the north.
Why would China want to take over such a wretched country, and why would they be waiting for our "okay" to do so?
The likely outcome of a Sino-Korean War (where China invades North Korea) would be likely identical to the Sino-Vietnamese War of 1979. The Vietnamese kicked some serious Chinese butt and sent them scurrying back to Chine with tails tucked between their legs. The topography that gave the Vietnamese a huge edge is the same in North Korea.
If the Chinese wanted North Korea, they could just let it collapse instead of propping it up.
Barry you are exactly right. It's much cheaper to prop them up than accept full responsibility. It will be interesting to see where NK is in the next 10 years. The old people in South Korea still seem interested in reunification...but they're old. The young South Koreans...not so much. They see that as an expense they really don't need.
Yeah ,ole Pennis Rodman really did a good job there in North Korea. He fell for Un's lying crap.
Whatever, I used to play in "Blue Flag" back in the 80's, and in Foal Eagle all through the 90's. These exercises are standard yearly events. Why has the North not complained until now, if this is such a big deal? Hmmm? They are just upset all the inbreeding has led to more crazy leaders.
I think they're upset that they don't get to play too.
North Korea is like the mean kid on the block who sees the other children playing together and gets angry at them for not wanting him around.
Just Get Over It1970
During 70s and 80s the big FTX was Team Spirit and the NKs would threaten war leading up to each exercise that started in March also. Foal Eagle used to be conducted in October time frames and it was more Table Top FTX, whereas as Team Spirit had tens of thousands of US troops and all of SK military forces partook. Ya shoulda seen the steam come out of Kim ll Sung, little Un's grandpa! Then after Grand Pa Kim departed the scene Kim Jong il would have conniptions. Now, it's Un's turn!
We always thought if NK was going to do something it would be after the FTX and the participating US troops departed back to CONUS.
I read one benefit of the exercises in S Korea was that it forced N Korean military to order counter exercises by their own forces, basically maneuvering of their forces which used up their oil. SKorea/US can afford to but N Korea can't.
Well, actually, they complain just about every year. And, we ignore them just as often. Nice arrangement, but I'm sure it infuriates the North Koreans who think that they are the center of the universe.
Hey Rodman great job where is your next mission Iran or Pakistan?
Ahhhhhh.Maybe next time Dennis Rodman should visit Kim Jong in his white wedding dress with a bottle of lube?.Its only a matter of time before those medication deprived nut jobs start a war.News flash to NK yes we will have war games to keep our defense warm,and china just voted again with the U.S to sanction them for there test 3 weeks ago so enough talk do something or cork it
Go ahead you nut case. Let the drone strikes begin. We could start by just dropping basketballs since he likes that game so much. He would be so enamored by the bouncing ball that he wouldn't be able to do anything but "follow the bouncing ball".
More routine bellicosity from the Hermit Kingdom. The NKPA would be destroyed if their leadership committed them to renewed warfare with South Korea. The South Korean military is far more advanced than the North's--at least three generations of hardware and doctrine more advanced. Human wave attacks won't work like they did six decades ago, nor will massed formations of armor in the face of better-armored opponents with greater mobility and far superior fire control, to say nothing of the South's far superior air and naval capabilities.
Don't kid yourselves. North Korea won't mount a major attack, and China won't back them up if they do. The presence of American troops does more to inhibit Southern impulses to conquer the north than the other way around.
@GB-62...
If the SK military is so advanced, how did a NK advanced diesel-electric submarine catch a state of the art SK anti-submarine warfare corvette, on full alert, by surprise and sink it?
And human wave attacks would be just as effective as in the Korean War for one simple reason. The terrain is terrible for tanks and arm,ored personnel carriers, leaving them as sitting ducks most of the time. The only place suitable for tanks is in SK and is a narrow strip between the marshy western plains and the eastern mountains. All of NK is mountainous.
While the North Koreans have limited air power, they have basically nullified much of the South's and the US air power by hardening their facilities to the point that we don't know where most of them are and the ones that we do are virtually invulnerable and are mostly decoys.
I do agree that NK is unlikely to attack. They have been playing a cold calculating game of brinkmanship since 1953 and have consistently won. Every President since Truman has wrestled with the "Korean Problem" and not a single one of them has come up with a single answer.
Back in 1969 I was in the catbird seat as the North Koreans shot down a US EC-121 about 90nm out into the Sea Of Japan. I had friends on that aircraft. And I watched as all the political and military minds available failed to come up with a single practical response to the incident that claimed 31 American lives.
Look at the sinking of the Changnan ---- nothing has changed. NK still holds all the aces in the deck.
@Chris-749391
Sorry but the SK anti-submarine warfare corvette that was sunk a few years ago was NOT a state of the art vessel. It was an antiquated naval vessel with limited equipment, a result of armament program when S Korea was not as wealthy. The sunk vessel did NOT have a passive sonar, which is comical for an 'anti-submarine' vessel. It was due to budget constraint in S Korea from 20 years ago when she was built.
And no the vessel wasn't on full alert. Certainly not the kind of full alert in an active shooting war. It had been warned to hide from line of sight from coastal missile battery of N Korea, by getting close to the island. And I think this helped the shooter of the torpedo to see the corvette better, helped by illuminations given by settlements on the island.
And I disagree that N Korea holds all the aces. Not really.
Perhaps the loss of the corvette might be explained by the fact that SK wasn't on a war footing, and nobody thought a torpedo attack might be imminent. A lone vessel is easy to surprise, especially if the diesel boat is lying essentially motionless in wait...no sonar signature for passive to pick up (and nobody goes around routinely blasting with active). Just because the vessel was at general quarters doesn't mean that it was actively hunting for a submarine. And the patrol pattern was well known, so positioning a boat in just the right spot wouldn't have been too tough.
The hidden, hardened airfields are an advantage...until you sortie something form them. Then your location is known, and the bunker-busting cruise missiles will find them. The aircraft themselves are largely obsolescent, and training time for NK aviators is virtually nil. So once they're in the air, they are sitting ducks. No massive numerical superiority for the North there.
Still disagree about human wave attacks. Modern artillery fire control is so far superior to what we had just thirty years ago, let alone sixty, that infantry in the open is merely a target for slaughter. No matter how many tunnels they dig, the NKs can't get everyone into them and infiltrate South.
@john,
The Cheonan had just finished a complete electronics refit less than a year before it was sunk. It was upgraded to full ASW and support for the advanced Harpoons included. It had both active and passive sonar and the ability to monitor the undersea detection network. (Sonar is not nearly as important these days in littoral waters because of modern subs' ability to lay in wait for weeks and shoot when a target comes in range.)
It was indeed an older ship (built in 1989), and was due to be scrapped in 2019, but the reason was not that it was especially old but that corvettes do not have the ability to launch sonar-dipping helicopters. They are just too small. So the ROKN is moving toward PT boats and ASW DE's and DD's and eliminating the corvetts that were not very good at either.
The ship was on full combat alert when sunk. All ROKN vessels are on full alert when in disputed waters (as the Cheonan was) and there had been a couple of provocative incidents just days before, so at the time all ROKN ships were on at least heightened alert status. The ROKN was well aware that the ship might be attacked in that area.
@GB62 ...
a) Just a couple of disagreements. By American standards, the ROK military is always on a war footing. They are well aware that they would not have time to upgrade alert status in time of war.
b) Patrol patterns in the area where the Cheonan was sunk would never have been routine, but would have traveled on the most unpredictable patterns possible. But the area of the sinking has many tiny islands and near-surface rockheads that do funnel all naval traffic into smaller lanes from time to time. This actually varies a lot with winds and tides.
c) The hardened aircraft revetments are of little consequence. They all have to be near a long runway and it is easier to crater the runway than even look for the aircraft. It's all the other stuff that is in hardened sites that are of concern.
d) There are no cruise missile "bunker busters" in existence. Cruise missiles carry notoriously small warheads. Bunker busters are notoriously heavy --- in the 2.5 ton class. But the problem with bunker busters is that the best we have will only penetrate less than 20 feet of reinforced concrete. But many NK facilities are under 200-300 feet of solid basalt.
e) There is also the issue that we don't know where most of the bunkers are and how many of the ones we know about are decoys or "shell game" bunkers where thay are used in rotation, but usually just serve as decoys.
f) It is unlikely that the sub ever had a visual contact of any kind. It was simply necessary to rise just enough for the torpedo to clear the mud. The periscope this is sooooo WWII movie. Instead of worring about seeing the ship visually, the sub just used the time to leave the area.
Bottom line is that you can't win a war with air power. And every time we have tried, we have failed.
You hit it right on the head Sailor...... "In the old days, this would get them food. Those days are gone idle threats don't work anymore. We finally wised up." How childish NK acts.
China says it doesn't want a flood of NK coming across the border but wouldn't that be better than having these people stuck in that country? If the NK people left in a flood then the bozo leader wouldn't have no one left to rule over! Except his military that he cannot feed after all the US supported food stocks run out. I say its a win win if the people of NK flood into china.
But then China has millions of uneducated, malnourished, desperate people flooding their cities. Unsurprisingly, the Chinese are more concerned about the burden upon their own people and government than they are about the welfare of the North Korean citizens themselves.
The Chinese have been putting more and more soldiers on their border with North Korea because of the refugee problem. Most NK refugees are either shot in the attempt or are sent back to certain death by the Chinese. The Chinese do not regard the Koreans as racially or culturally equal, usually referring to them as "ape men" because of an ambiguity in the Chinese characters.
Funny thing is Koreans traditionally don't hold the Chinese that highly either. But that's before they became more modernized.
Yeah, i'd be pissed off, too, if that freak Dennis Rodman came into my house
Send Dennis R. back to broker a new peace settlement. He can play B-Ball with Un and everything will be ok.
Dennis R can't even speak! He sounds like he dropped out of school....in second grade!
From south Korea:, Dennis Rodman will be visiting them to clear this up "Guess What? WHAT? Now we know