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Subscribe to RSSROME — The papal conclave to elect the new leader of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics will begin on Tuesday afternoon, a Vatican spokesman announced.
Cardinals will enter the closed meeting after holding a special Mass in St. Peter's Basilica in the morning, Father Federico Lombardi said in a statement Friday.
Apart from eating and sleeping, they will not be allowed to leave the conclave until they have chosen who will succeed Pope Benedict XVI, who announced his abdication on Feb. 10 and formally ended his papacy on Feb. 28, citing his increasing physical frailty.
Cardinals have been holding closed-door meetings this week in Rome to plan a date for the conclave.
L'Osservatore Romano via Reuters
Workers prepare stoves in the Sistine Chapel that will be used to burn ballots during the conclave, in a photo released on Thursday.
Earlier Friday, Lombardi confirmed that all of the 115 cardinals taking part in the conclave — in which a series of closed ballots is held in the Sistine Chapel until the new pontiff is chosen — were now in Rome.
On Thursday, reporters were shown images of preparation work being carried out at the Vatican, including the installation of the chimney stack through which white smoke will flow once a pope has been elected.
Related:
Riots, revenge and royal rigging: A history of controversial conclaves
Will Catholics embrace change? The view from one parish in Rome
Full coverage of the papal abdication from NBC News
This story was originally published on Fri Mar 8, 2013 7:19 AM EST
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Translation: "The chips, dip and beer are here. Shut the doors, and let's get this party started."
I want to know about the smoke part of this thing. I might be in.
The Cardinals have known for over a month that they needed to elect a new pope. What's taking them so long to get the show on the road?
JK,
They all have to be there at the same time. A few of them had things to do that they could not leave just yet.
Don't fret, they will get around to it in good time.
Why do Cardinals need briefcases? Shouldn't their data already be in the cloud?
Atheist,
What?
athiest never misses trolling an article about the rcc
make sure this group of boys are ON TIME! last month the others were like 15 minutes late.
I cannot wait to find out who they choose as the next gilded turd.
The Ex-Pope broke my arm last week. He was having lunch with the Cardinals and fell out of the tree........
The next Pope will come from a country in South America. Reason why South America has the most Catholics in the world (as of now). From which South American country will depend on the cardinal...must have a MBA or close to it from what they are seeking.
Would sure make for a mellow voting session. Entertainment courtesy of Cheech & Chong...."hey guys....lets start foollin with the color of the smoke man. Lets send up some blue smoke, then some red".
Who really cares? If you read the good book these clowns are nothing better than the Pharisees of Christ's times. Christ called them hypocrites and was against most of their ways so they hung him on a tree.
They are looking for a guy named peter?
Wonder if they're recruiting applicants from NAMBLA?
A new Pope will bring new Hope.
"Papal Conclave" That sounds like some sort of skin condition.
I hope they pick the atheist Cardinal for pontiff. Surely there is at least one atheist among the 115 odd electors. A few are quite intelligent (if only in a narrow field academically). There has to be one.
Um, nah, not likely.
You've obviously never researched The Clergy Project!
Oh but I have. It sounds like a bunch of protestant preachers who have lost their faith. That is sad. No mention of Catholic priests that I saw.
Anyway, the candidate for Pope must be a single, adult, male Catholic. The "Catholic" part means a practicing Catholic.
NC, I was a Catholic atheist for a few years before I finally submitted my formal request to the local bishop for excommunication based on willful and happy apostasy. I went along with the rituals on the outside out of fear of punishment from my family. BTW, I see they don't allow that formal submission of renouncing the faith anymore! Hey, if the pope can quit, lay Catholics should be able to quit too.
I'm sure there is at least one atheist Cardinal who likewise is just going through the motions for fear of upsetting his flock. Don't get me wrong, I don't condone that, but I understand it. Not all of the members of the Clergy Project are visible. It is a protected group. Many of the members face violence for following their conscience so they must remain anonymous.
oh btw athiest take apples n oranges off ignore and say hello to him for me
Simply put, Atheist 6939529, if you leave the Catholic Church, then you have excommunicated yourself. Excommunication does not mean "kicked out of the church", but rather is a statement of affirmation of what you have done to yourself and a call to repentance. There is no need for the Church to declare what you've already declared, and it is up to you to repent.
Great posting, though - gave me a smile for the morning. You do amuse.
"Catholic athiest" is an oxymoron, as is "intelligent Athiest."
indeed, typically the more one studies scripture and the secular evidence from the 1st and 2nd century, the more likely a person is to become a christian not an athiest
Read Augustine, Aquinas, and even Einstein. Much smarter than all of us put together.
i love St. Thomas Aquinas great dr of the church
Myself, I am a Non Practicing Roman Catholic.
Anybody who refers to themself as a Catholic Atheist is an idiot.
Jesus Christ! Some people are real morons.
BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT BE BOTH!
D'oh!
Steamie,
Sure you can. First, few Catholics agree with all doctrine. Most American Catholics are cool with contraception for instance. I hope all are against hiding child rapists too (a clear violation of Catholic internal policy).
One can be culturally Catholic just like one can be a cultural Jew. Cultural Catholics like the "smells and bells" but think the faith of the founders is just a failed science trying to explain the world as best they could at time when demons were thought to cause epilepsy.
I was a Catholic atheist. I suppose I still am considering the Catholics still count me on their roster due to baptism!
Of course I completely reject the faith.
ill bet athiest has never read one page of the catechism of the cc
Case Closed.
... and still a moron.
hey steamie you know its lent, a great time to get back to recieving the body and blood of our Lord and all the grace that comes with it
apostle of truth,
lol
You sound like one of my family members. Every year heading into Easter season. I keep hearing somebody doing Kate Winslet's quote at the end of Titanic "Come Back, Come Back!" Though, I still do Weddings & Funerals and a blue moon Baptism, I still don't take communion ... Plus it's been. Forgive me father for I have sinned. It's been 25 years since my last confession.
lol my mom was a similar situation, she had some ppl who did her wrong and couldnt forgive them and wouldnt go to mass or confession, she said confession never , then we got her to go to a general absolution mass( after many rosaries lol) , next thing you know she is going to mass but not communion, then one day she wanted to go to confession, now shes going to mass, communion, stations of the cross etc...
@Atheist
So I see you have finally revealed yourself. You are a Catholic after all. I am not surprised. Since you were Baptized with water by the Holy Spirit there is no changing that. You may be in incommunicado with the Church, but that doesn't change who you are. I hope for your sake you can find forgiveness before the end of your days.
Amen, I say to you. all sins and all blasphemies that people utter will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemies against the Holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of everlasting sin (Mk. 3:28-29).
Catholics don't have faith, they have fear and guilt, oh, and obsessive-compulsive disorders. 1 in 3 people with OCD are catholic.
The executive director of the Clergy Project is a former Catholic chaplain. They say they have quite a few Catholic priests as members.
losghost--that is hog@!$%#!
The Holy Spirit is a piece of crap. i used to live on the same block as the Holy Spirit and no one on the street liked him. He never returned anything he borrowed and was generally a miserable SOB. The Holy Spirit was into beastiality too and raped my neighbour's cat! We called the cops on him many times, but everytime they showed up he would make himself invisible! Damn smartass spirits... He eventually became known as the @!$%#y Spirit around the neighbourhood. What a prick! "Blasphemous" enough for ya?
Hey leroy, don't worry if it's blasphemous enough for us....is it for YOU?
Now that you mention it Geo, it's not! I'll do better next time.
bad, bad leroy brown baddest man in the whole d town, badder than ole king kong, .....till you come face to face with God at judgement, i loved you in spite of your sin and came to earth as one of you and let myself be tortured and killed so you could have paridise with me but you rejected me, depart from me then there will be wailing and knashing of teeth. an eternity of torment
Your personal incredulity doesn't factor into it.
Journal of Anxiety Disorders
Volume 10, Issue 5, September–October 1996, Pages 379–391
Behavior Therapy Versus Clomipramine for the Treatment of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder in Children and Adolescents
Religion, Ethnicity and Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder
Religiousness and obsessive–compulsive cognitions and symptoms in an Italian population
Thanka goodnessa. I havea been loosinga sleep waitinga for the phonea to ringa. May alla you other contendas burna inna Hella.
stone,
You are not already in Vatican City? So YOU are the holdup.... Get thee to Vatican City.
Blessa you NC. Maya alla wishes and dreama's come true todaya.
A bunch o single males...could that perhaps be the problem with all the sexual abuse????????
Married men who commit sexual abuse has shown that being married has been no solution.
Toxic,
I do not believe so. My belief, they are pedophiles who knew they were different and thought that possibly going into the priesthood would help them with their sexual deviance.
But, it does not and it actually exposes them to greater opportunities to be alone with children.
As a survivor of priest abuse, I found you are quite correct in that assessement, at least for some. Certain men went into seminary hoping for some "cure", as if just being a priest would make them holy and well. Others went in not caring, believing that being a priest would be the perfect cover for their perversions. Most are not true pedophiles, either, but rather certain gay men (DISCLAIMER: Not all gay men are like this, most would NEVER harm a minor) with a perversion for boys just beginning puberty - ephebophilia. My abuser was this.
Today there are very hard standards in accepting men into studies for the priesthood, especially with a very stringent battery of psychological tests to weed out these men. Is it perfect? Nothing is, but it has done much to make sure that these types don't make it to the priesthood. There is also a greater appreciation in the men who are studying for the priesthood these days with the commitment to celibacy, seeing it as a unique calling from God that they willingly accept. The very idea of harming children is absolutely unacceptable, and they would turn in a colleague who did.
Most of the cases that we hear of happened decades ago and have only come up in the last ten years. It has taken the Church much to take appropriate action, but it is. Pope Benedict defrocked my abuser, so he cannot function as a priest ever again. Cases today are rare (though even one case is one too many) and they get dealt with immediately by having the police and DA's called immediately. If they do not (as in the recent case in Kansas City), then there are consequences (the bishop found guilty of negligence).
That was a lot, but worth stating again.
I am speaking from a reality based stance, millions of years has taught nature to put this thing called testosterone into all the animals so that there will be further generations. Then this thing that we call religion comes around, well, nature will be served no matter what kind of musings man can conjure up. So a lot of men without a sexual release is going to be problematic.
The average pedophile is white, middle aged and married. Yes, it is true, that they surround themselves or put themselves in careers or situations to increase contact with children ie...Boy Scout troops, churches etc...allowing priests to marry will not keep the pedophiles out though.
no in fact it might increase the number trying to get in, as you said they use marriage as a cover to keep suspicion down. being a priest does not make a pedophile, hes already one going in, the church needs to do a better job of screening, however a shortage of priest thru the years probably didnt help the selection process, ie they didnt bother to check any history trying to speed the process along
Benedicti: Thank you for the information-I'm very sorry you were victimized.....you stated "Pope Benedict defrocked my abuser". Was that the only action taken? Are you still a practising Catholic? I'm not trying to get personal but I am curious..............
It won't do that per se, but it will help Catholicism develop a more reality-based view of human sexuality. Right now their bizarre celibacy policy causes all kinds of warped behavior and moronic bigotry.
Benedict is lying through his teeth.
That's my impression too since he's been a Catholic apologist from day one.
And regarding Ratzinger defrocking priests, his major contribution in that area was to delay the defrocking of priests who were known to have raped children. Stephen Kiesle is a good example of what Ratzinger really did.
maybe cause there wasnt sufficient evidence and he was being cautious, but you wouldnt understand that lynch mobber
Now all they have to do is wait for the parents to sign the permission slips and then they can go on their dates with all the boy scouts! Bathing suits optional!
hey nc tell athiest to take apples off ignore and apostle, every time he cant win an argument he puts ppl on ignore
If Atheist 6939529 cannot "win" an argument based on merit and resorts to ignoring others, then he or she is not worth the time. There is no loss, and you might as well enjoy the weakness of his or her posts made without needing to have an intelligent conversation.
true all his posts about the rcc are like read from cue cards and the same factless biased remarks
benedictine- geez, don't upset the atheist or he'll post repeatedly and his convoluted ramblings take away from any actual dialogue.I can tell you are well educated on Catholicism and enjoy your answers to the posts that are put up which erroneously represent the church.I see many of the anti-church posters like to "prove" their position by stating misinformation or conjecture.Nice to see someone who can refute the baseless claims by pointing out actual doctrine.God bless you!Keep up the good work.
the athiests are so insecure about thier position they must try to tear down the church to make them feel better about thier poor choice
apostle,
the church does a good job of tearing itself down.
no thats satan trying to tear it down, we let him in the back door and we have to get him out
lololololol
apostle, how old is the earth?
dont know i wasnt around when it was created, were you?
so you bury your head in the sand?
not sure what im burying my head in the sand about. what difference does it make how old the earth is? nowhere in the bible does it state the earth is so many years old. anyway as far as time goes the bible says a day is as a 1000 years to the Lord and a 1000 years as a day.
well that clears it up.
apostle of truth - i am an agnostic/diest - and i am in no way insecure about my position - my position is i do not know the answers - one thing i do know is the beliefs of the catholic church are made up of silly fantasy that i DO know - i cant get past the first page of your silly book - adam and eve in some garden and talking snakes please - why go to page two - we KNOW the universe began 14 billion years ago - we have it down to the second - so why would a god make up a bogus story - why not tell his people the truth on creation ........... because there is no god talking to nobody - it is all in their heads ...... to make them feel special and important - MADE UP - it is such a joke - all made up and people who refuse to think and ask questions - all your religions do is make a virtue of NOT thinking
Fred Flinstone: Who is we? We KNOW? I suppose you were around back then? Dummy
well well well - ok fred flinstone well facts/ science tells us that " fred flinstones " existed, men and civilizations just like him - thousands of years before adam and eve - but if adam and eve were first how did fred flinstone get here where did he come from - some god pulled a miracle in the next county - how did kangeroos come to exist - were they on noahs arc - noah sailed to australia ( and he did even know it existed - CAUGHT 2 kangeroos - sailed back kept them alive - a trip that would probably take 10years - he did this with all the other species on the freakin planet - and put them on his arc to save them and thats how they here today pretty good trick - polar bears , elephants , rhinos , hippos they were all on this big boat of his - for what years - well according to the bible noah lived to 900 or was that moses - another amazing trick ......... or fairy tale, read the bible or jack and the beanstalk same thing
Frediot: So YOU WERE around back then?
The Truth,
That is your justification that god exists? No one was around, 6000 years ago, when it happened so it must be true.
WOW!
@The Truth-2190315
How many grains of sand are on the beach? Do you think we could have a pretty close estimate? Without counting every grain of sand?
Use common sense and a little 8th grade math.
I don't have to justify anything to you. Moron.
losghost: How many brain cells do you have? I estimate zero.
That's clever, now pat yourself on the back and place your head back where it was. You are no closer to the truth or reality than you were 5 minutes ago, even with your ad hominem.
you know every time we turn around scientist realize they were WRONG about a THEORY they swore by. so for them to say they know exactly how the universe was made 14 billion years ago is crazy, now lets say one of them was around then and wrote about it maybe we could believe it, no wait several wrote about Jesus just 2k years ago and they dont believe that
Never surprises me the posts that are launched on these msnbc sites.
All of you are hollering, without any understanding of Catholicsim at all, for the Roman Catholic church to "obey" you.
Right. Based on what?
That you are so nice? Nope, sorry, requires more than such a superficial measure.
It requires that you change your life. This is something most posters on these liberal websites do not understand and/or ignore completely. The obedience you demand of others is EXACTLY what you refuse to acknowledge for yourself.
Americans are experts at demanding their "rights" (constitutional or otherwise) and demanding that they receive full benefits from all. Yet, at the same time, Americans do NOTHING to show they are deserving at ALL of ANY "rights" (driving or otherwise) to be given to them.
Obedience is the key that turns the lock. Americans refuse to acknowledge they need to give anything. They just DEMAND, DEMAND, DEMAND, their way.
Sorry USA. The true Catholic Church has no need of your selfish, self-centered attitude and behavior. If you want woman priests, gay rights and all your "sexual rights" --- go to a Protestant church. They are only interested in filling seats every Sunday. As for your eternal soul? They dont appear ready to do anything to help anyone with that question.
If you really are searching for a Catholic Church to renew your faith - look to the FSSP, the SSPX or the SSPV TRADITIONAL Catholic Churches. They are ready to follow the Catholic faith as it has been handed down for centuries (prior to the Vatican II heresy) and they celebrate The Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as it has been celebrated since it began.
I am sure some posters will do anything to cast a shadow on such valiant Catholic Priests. Go ahead. You merely indicate how little you know of the faith. If you knew anything, you would know that the sex abuse scandals are in Vatican II churches, not in the Traditional churches. As an example, the Boston Archdiocese has done nothing but shrink for the last 2 decades. This "arch" diocese is now as small as the Lincoln, NE diocese, perhaps even smaller. That is what Vatican II has done to most Catholic dioceses.
Yet, Traditional Catholic churches, without hardly any support at all from the bishops they report to, have grown at a double digit rate for over a decade now. That is something no other Vatican II Catholic Diocese can say. Traditional churches have more Priests, more seminarians and are building more seminaries than ANY Vatican II church in the USA.
If you are reading this liberal media story to find out more about TRUE Catholicism, then read more about the FSSP, SSPX and SSPV (Canons Regular in Chicago) as the Traditional answer to the Vatican II heresy.
Well written. After straying from the church for 25yrs I came back to a traditional church 9yrs ago.Although Traditional Masses are hard to find I try to attend whenever possible. I hope the new pope promotes bringing back the followers of Bishop Lebreve.
Most of the posters here are knee-jerk anti-catholics and haven't a clue what the church is about and are influenced by the secular media who I guess never heard of Thomas Aquinas. Go Traditionalists!
@Traditional Catholicism is the only answer (It isn't)
First off, typical of most theists, you have trouble distinguishing between criticism and demands for obedience. The only demands you hear from atheists are that you follow the basic rules of logic.
Those include not using fallacious logic or reasoning to assert ones ideas.
Second, many understand Catholicism more than Catholics do. Some of us know where it started and why, that from the very beginning the sect of religion and the bible itself were politically created, by a committee for political reasons. ie: Council of Nicea, Constantine, et al.
Wrong on the Council of Nicea.It was created as a reaction to the Arian heresy. To be "logical" it had to be political in that it was an important survival issue for the early Christians and split the young church.
Trinitarianism triumphed and is dominant today's in Christianity except for a few Protestant sects.
karol -
good post.
loghost has no idea what he is attempting to write about. Faith is to obey him, evidently.
As for societal slaves knowing Catholicism better than Traditional Catholics - not likely. Look at all these posts.
Thanks.
I'm interested at to what parts of Vatican II specifically you object to, and if there were any changes you are ok with. Having grown up in the church post Vatican II, I actually like having a priest facing me and speaking in a language I can understand vs with his back to me and conducting the mass in Latin so I just sit there totally lost. I feel like the church should be as inclusive as possible.... because Jesus was about inclusion rather thane exclusion... he kind of hung out with the dregs of society (lepers, adultereres, etc) and still loved them.
i actually tried to have an intelligent dialogue with him but when he realized he wasnt gonna convert me from catholicism to athieism he said our conversation had become uninteresting and put me on ignore
Same with me. When he could not address my questions, he chose to say that we contradict each other. He was probably never really Catholic. At best he was one of the CEO folks (Christmas and Easter Only). He doesn't believe in God, yet can't explain the creation of the universe. Believes his opinion is on par with Einstein, DesCartes, and Aquinas. I give the athiests credit, they are arrogant. Reminds me of arguing with my kids. Are there problems with the Church? Sure. However, they want to destroy it to create anarchy without anything with which to replace it.
we need people of strength to stick with it and try to make changes not cut and run. martin luther was actually a good priest, if he had just hung in there, maybe moved up in the church and then tried to make changes.you cant slap a bear on the nose and then have a dialogue with him( ie letter posted on the cathedral). i bet he would be appauled at what followed him in the reformation
Please, I beg to disagree.
Luther was crazy insane.
He was a Catholic Priest, so he will always carry that Grace on his soul. But, he was crazy.
Examples -
1. he often had "arguments" with satan - Priests leave that to God.
2. he often threatened to "shove" stuff up satan's rear - not sure his point, but he said it
3. he argued against the bad polices of Catholic leaders of his day - and then created an even worse one by starting a heretical church
Change in the Catholic Church takes decades, not minutes. That is why the USA hates the Catholic Church so much. The Roman Catholic refuse to operate in "microwave" fashion as Americans want. This current conclave has taken up almost one week, but if you read USA stories, you'd think it has been a month so far. Good decisions are rarely made in seconds.
Why would you give athiests credit for being arrogant?
There is no athiest conspiracy to destroy any church. There are some that yell from a soap box just like there are people of faith trying to convert non believers to their side. As an athiest, I don't really care what others believe, and I would think that most others think the same way. And athiests are not anarchists, don't know where you came up with that one.
Padre Pio also had arguments with satan, but also remember that any info coming from that time may not be 100% acurrate, on both sides, yes he started a heredical church but point being if he had issues he should have stayed in the church and tried to make changes.
a classic example is what if our founding fathers said its too much trouble trying to create a independent nation and went somewhere else.
Glen actually most athiests do try to tear down the church to make them feel more secure about thier choice to not believe in a divine being. if they didnt care youd never see a post from one here
Truth you are wrong. You can't think that most athiests are the evangelical type trying to convert others just because of some posts on a story on msnbc. If that is the case then I am allowed to conclude that most catholic priests are pedophiles because those are the only stories I see on the news.
im not saying your trying to convert anyone, although any argument would tend to have that side effect, what im saying is most are insecure about thier position so they feel if they can make the others position weak, they feel better about thiers. as for posts on msnbc it goes beyond that, other news sources and ppl i talk to everywhere
Traditional: Luther might have been a bit off, but the whole idea of selling indulgences is in the league with the Spanish inquisition and the witch burnings.
Jatty -
How were the Crusades to be funded? Many ways, but someone got the "great" idea to sell indulgences. Indulgences CAN NOT be sold as they are offered to the faithful out of the "bank" of sacred Grace. But, that point was ignored/overlooked and the sale began.
Now, you can argue all you want about the Crusades. Good bad or indifferent, they happened and are happening again today. They are just funded by the USA military in the Middle East today.
The Catholic Church had NOTHING to do with the Puritanical (Protestant) witch hunts in early America.
The Inquisition, for all the bad press everyone believes to be truth, was helpful.
What??!! That is CRAZY!!!!!!
No. It is the truth. How was "justice handed out in the 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500's (and more)??? The King decided who got "justice". How was it determined? By such GREAT science as:
1. "if she is a witch, she does not float". Never mind that EVERYONE is a witch with that as the basis for "fact".
2. if the King likes you, you are innocent
3. if you pay the King enough, you are innocent
4. if you have your own army - the King finds you innocent and then you help him.
With the Inquisition, the Catholic Church determined it was necessary to have PROOF. They required PROOF of claims.
Wow. What a concept.
99% of those brought before the Inquisition were declared innocent. Sorry, there WERE NOT a lot of blood baths. That was the FRENCH REVOLUTION.
That beginning of requiring TRUTH to prove claims was the start of what became the modern (at least in the USA) court system.
the intial idea was that is was to be the "fruits of repentance" but some unscrupulous people thought why not pay it foreward? lol. and of course money always tends to corrupt people so it also became a money racket, but intially was a good idea as a way for people to make pennace for sins commited and help church in financial hard times when ppl wernt donating to the church
thats why there havent been more priests convicted of abuse because we have a legal system that requires proof to convict someone in a court of law not in the court of public opinion
Tradition: I was speaking about the witch burnings in Europe. Moreover, as Catholics, we do need to recognize and criticize where the human leaders of the Church go off track. I may be a loyal Catholic, but I am loyal to the Congregation of the Faithful-that is the Church and that is the Body of Christ. If a Cardinal or other Church official was in fact guilty of covering up child molestation and placing molesting Priests back into our churchs and schools, they should be prosecuted, and the whole idea of any "cover up," if it occurred, is antithetical to the concept of penance.
Tradition: I also believe you are wrong on the court system. Our court system is a direct descendant of the English common law system. Moreover, the Crusades were evil, on both sides. The enormous sufferings and the loss of innocents was an abomination. I understand that the Church believed at the time it was doing the right thing. I also understand that the Crusades were largely the work of bored midevil princes looking for fortune and glory. Still, the Church was wrong, just as the Muslims were wrong for invading Spain. Today, thousands die in Africa from AIDS because the Church will not condone contraception. I know because we founded an orphanage to care for the surviving children. There is no moral justification for that position and the Vatican has a report commissioned by Paul VI which says so. Still Rome persists in its position.
guys - there could be a divine being - so what- does not mean the one written in one book is the one - its fantasy - sure he puts us here too fear him , pray to him and worship him - really why would he need that ? that is no divine being to me - man made up the gods - not the other way around - and there haver been thousands of them by the way - what does that tell you - ok your right but the other billions upon billions of people are wrong .................. hence your all wrong the same reasons yoiu denounce other beliefs is the the same reason they can denounce yours - geniuses your not thats for sure - as a matter of fact a man like albert enstein or carl sagan were closer to knowing or understanding a god then all your popes , bishops, priest, nuns, rabbis , mullahs combined - they tried to get answers everyone else just believed what the person before them told them - i would actuall classify religious people as simply lazy.......................... all laid out for me, ok lets go with that
Jatty -
Agreed on the need for accountibility of our leaders. Even ignorance should be accounted for and not used as an excuse.
The English Courts developed on their own? Not so fast.
As for what I have read, I think the Inquisition has been given more bad press (for whatever or whoever's reasonings) than it deserves. I thought it was horrible and actually began studying it to prove that point. It is not that easy. If you allow as truth all the anecdotal reports from PROTESTANT sources, then yes - it was horrible. If you ask for factual reports and evidence, you "suddenly " find that it did more good than bad.
The Crusades were a large effort to rebuff the Infidels and reclaim the Holy Land from which Catholicism was born.
Thousands die from AIDS for reasons that have nothing to do with the Catholic church (ie - Africans believe that if you have sex with a virgin, you will be cured of AIDS - or anything for that matter. Guess what?? You wont be cured and one more innocent person will have it.)
Paul VI is one of the MAIN problems. he shuttered Cardinals who complained about the VAT II heresy. He allowed Communists into the Catholic Church for THE FIRST TIME EVER. He was a "friend" of several Soviet leaders. He continued the VAT II mess even after 90% of Cardinals complained. Read the books written on the VAT II mess. It is appalling.
The Catholic Church believes all life is Blessed by God. Who is man to stop its creation or to end its life before it starts? I realize that flies right in the face of today's societal pressures to "be modern" and "cool" and "popular".
Christ said - "the world will hate you, but remember, it hated me first".
Fred: Who said my beliefs are any better or worse than anyone else's? I contest Athiest's belief that there is no God. If there is a God, then the essence of God is all good. I don't care if it is the Catholic God, Yahweh, Budda, etc. I also believe that God creates us to spend eternity with him. I also think he is more forgiving than most believe. For example, even Adolph Hitler was probably crazy, and hence possible not culpable. I do laugh when I hear people bless God. God needs our blessing like I need the blessing of the fleas that live on my dog. However, the logical conclusion that there was a prime being creator is, at least in my own mind, inescapable, and I have spent years studying the topic.
Tradition: Respectfully, the court system in England developed under Henry II long before the Inquisition. Moreover, our leaders do make mistakes. Personally, I preferred John XXIII and Paul VI to JP II or Benedict. My defense of contraception has nothing to do with being "cool." It has to do with a Vatican report, written by a committee of Cardinals, indicating that there is no moral objection to contraception where fertilization does not occur. Christ never taught this. It was an invention of the Church. In the face of our brothers and sisters dying in Africa, it cannot and should not pass muster.
Boy am on "pins and needles" over this one...
Fret not whynot, a reliable source tells me Cardinal Mahony will repent by urging the election of Sinead O'Connor as the next pope. She's a lock.
I was thinking the same thing.
To Traditional Catholicism is the only answer:
I enjoyed your post very much.
I don't care how many closed door meetings they hold, the Cards are still gonna lose to the Cubbies
And the cubbies will still miss the playoffs....
Talk about an infallible prediction.
I am not catholic, but The Catholics get a bad rap sometimes, throughout their history they have done some wrong things, but look at some of the good they do, charity, working with the sick, like lepers, and great humanitarians like Mother Theresa, and some other saints...Do not think atheists would deny this..
so we trade off - we forget the crusades , the inquistion , hating gays , killing doctors , denying science , and of course abusing children for hundred of years all while hiding behind the cross and in the name of god ? - ........... how about do none of the bad - dont abuse, hate, kill , torture anyone for your religion - and just do good for the freakin sake of doing good and not in the name of any deity i dont need the ten commandments to tell me not to hurt anyone and help people - only the weak and dumb have to resort to that - ........... and by the way im not so sure they do good to help anyone but themselves - they want to go to heaven and fear hell - simple- both places that dont exist , only in the human mind
Frank -
Thanks for that succinct and true post. The only effort in that regard for the first 1500 years of Christianity was the Catholic Church and its religious. So your point is based in absolute truth.
Thanks for pointing out that fact that most disregard and/or ignore. Faithful Catholics, for all the bad that can be said of them and their leaders, are some of the most kind, generous and hard working Christians you will ever have the pleasure to meet and talk with.
The only answer to what question?
Any question you wish to propose. Go ahead make it as goofy as you wish.
The answer is - God.
On the Earth, at this time, God has created the Catholic Church to be His effort. Yes, it does fail. As did the Space Shuttle, Communism, the Chicago Cubs, etc. But, it will also succeed as it has done for 2000+ years.
What other govt, business, family - WHATEVER - has succeeded for 2,000+ consecutive years?
Nothing.
Well, Judaism.
We non Catholics don't care, really....We just want this off the news so important things can be broadcast....
if you dont care then why bother leaving a comment? im just saying
Maian, what's important? Like sports, and sex and the Kardashians? Really? We Catholic's care and we get a gut full of sex, drugs, murder, violence, shoved down our throats all year long. Surely you can sit tight for a month or so...especially since it only happens about every 20 years or so. Give me a break.
Why don't God just pick the new pope.
he will, he will just act thru the cardinals at the conclave. i guess you want him to come here personally, put one foot on america and one on europe and shout to the whole world???
that would be a lot more convenient, but I guess he's too busy helping quarterbacks win the superbowl.
Nah, he's busy organizing the next Republican convention.
no maybe quarterbacks and linebackers THINK hes helping them win superbowls, about the only thing helping is God given talent and a will inside to be willing to go 10% farther than the other person is willing to go.
I'm yawning.
Careful everyone that's religious the non believers are about to start havoc
Who care about the Pope this organization still allows pediphiles to operate and commune inside the vatican. How could anyone support (tithe) to an organization that condones this type of behavior? (Scilence in the house of God was an eye opening documentary I highly recomend all to see!
The Catholic CHurch is not the ONLY organization that has had this type of trouble.
Look at the public schools and all the stories over the last few weeks about teachers having sex with students (apparently it is OK in everyone's opinion if the teacher is a "hot" female and the student is a male, but if the teacher is a male.........)
Look at Protestant churches and their episodes with kids, secretaries, other pastors, etc. ,etc.,etc..
Lokk at the FED govt - Senators having kids with the children of their fellow senators. Yikes!!! And no charges filed. WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yet, YOU make this measure and YOU declare the Catholic Church to be GUILTY.
Hmmmm, that sounds familiar.
Hey, wait a minute - God has a measure and He asks us to be obedient to it.
How have you done obeying His 10 Commandments today? Yes, I didnt obey either.
That is where His Forgiveness through Christ's death on the Cross helps us to get back into His Grace.
Look into that Pardon He offers. Go seek a Traditional Catholic Church. His Grace abounds there.
It's the only one which has run a global criminal conspiracy to cover up the rape of children, the only one which has paid $20,000 bonuses to people who rape children, and the only one which has moved pedophiles to new unsuspecting communities so they could rape more children.
It's also the only organization which hired a known pedophile-protector as its leader.
skrekkkk -
Please, get a grip, read a little and understand that nbc news does not know everything about everything.
Your claim they paid bonuses for rape is beyond the pale. Please, provide the court case docket number.
You have nothing but anger.
I suggest you see a Traditional Priest - he wont see you alone in some far away corner of the building - and ask him for help.
You need it and should get it.
God Bless.
tradition all shrek can do is troll is factless propaganda..... shrek the ogre trolling , now thats funny
Sounds like you're unfamiliar with what Cardinal Dolan did when he was Archbishop of Milwaukee. Not only did he pay $20,000 bonuses to priests who raped children, but he hid diocese assets in "cemetery funds" where they couldn't be touched by a bankruptcy court.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/cardinal-dolan-quiet-20k-payments-pedophile-priests/story?id=16467662
http://www.snapnetwork.org/wi_cardinal_dolan_likely_deposed_today_in_milwaukee_archdiocese_bankruptcy_sex_abuse_cases
Apparently preserving church assets was far more important to Dolan than compensating the victims of rape.
you obviously dont read well or its just your agenda trying to twist the truth, he was trying to remove priest who he knew were guilty of abuse, despite the fact there wasnt enough evidence for the law to put them in jail. he did all he could do to get them out of the priesthood . if you read well enough youd see it would cost more to remove then unvoluntarily and take alot longer.
typical left wing media bs , they make a big headline that gives a different impression than the content in the article
So just call the cops and defrock the priests and kick them out, don't give them a $20,000 signing bonus while at the same time fighting against paying settlements to the victims of those rapists, and hiding church assets in "cemetery funds".
Dolan's priorities are so seriously screwed up that he's the perfect candidate for Pope.
its not a 20k signing bonus its a way of saving th church money and they get them out of the church faster. call the cops your a moron, if there was real evidence the cops would have already arrested the priest you dolt
That would only be true if you actually called the cops rather than conspiring to cover up the crime as the Catholic church always did.
If they're starting officially on Tuesday, that means they probably have already decided which of them is going to be the new pope. They've already been talking for a few days now. Let's hope they pick one who has the guts to say, if you touch a child inappropriately, you are excommunicated right then and there. No appeals, no re-locations, no cover-ups, not just defrocked, but out of the flock altogether. And instantly reported to the authorities.
Steve -
yes, I agree. But that will work as long as the Bishops grow a backbone and do it. Up to now - they are still trying to decide the definition of backbone.
Look at Bishop Gregory in Atlanta. A worthless example if ever there was one. he learned at the knee of Cardinal Bernadine in Chicago. Bernadine was gay, a heretic and was as liberal as a Democratic dollar. Now Gregory is taking all that he learned and is ruining Atlanta and North GA with his heresy. He was all upset when he did not get the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. Gregory had told a lot of people in Atlanta that that was where he was going. But his buddy, the Vatican Ambassador in DC, died of a heart attack two months before they chose the Philly Bishop. Gregory's name was removed from the list and tossed out.
Sorry Charlie...er...Gregory. Philly got a GREAT Bishop from Denver!!!!!!!!!!
There are MANY issues other than the kids, although that IS very important, so are these:
-Communion to be given by a PRIEST ALONE as communicant is kneeling - not being done in the USA
-Priests are the power at each church, not a bunch of women who appoint their buddies
- The Mass is the MOST important time - it is not social hour - so be quiet and sit down.
- The Sacrament of Penance is MOST important. It should be offered daily - not monthly. It is the only means by which man can get right with God.
- Seminariries need to be a school of learning to be a holy Priest, not a gay social club for dating.
There are many more.
This Pope needs to be HOLY not just popular. We have had popular (JP II) and it has not helped.
i agree women should not be alter servers or extraordinary ministers of the eucharist, we need more deacons so we dont need eom of the eucharist. and nuns and sisters need to put thier habit back on, this is ridiculous, women need to wear veils in church, the bible states that a women should not pray with her head uncovered
I knew Cardinal Bernadin. He was a wonderful man and priest who had to endure the most nasty, UNFOUNDED accusations from a mentally disturbed young man. He bore it with grace and dignity and forgave the man. He was a great priest and teacher.
-Priests are the power at each church, not a bunch of women who appoint their buddies **I've never seen that in any parish I ever belonged to.....you must be very unlucky.
- The Sacrament of Penance is MOST important. It should be offered daily - not monthly. It is the only means by which man can get right with God. **I have never heard of this before....where does this happen? My experience is that it is offered before the Vigil Mass on saturday and by appointment with the priest.
We were very lucky in 1990 to get a Bishop "with a backbone" - he cleaned out the diocese of both priests and laymen accused of abuse and sent them packing to face any criminal charges. It was so refreshing, after "see no evil, hear no evil" bishop before him.
Both of you seem have a very nasty mindset about women - where does that come from?
"cardinal" bernadine was a known gay priest, bishop and cardinal. Facts.
Sorry the truth hurts.
It is still the truth.
I am from Chicago.
It shows just how out of touch these cardinals are when they announce the date of the election, by a male only electorate with male only candidates, of a head of state and leader of the world's largest organized religion on INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY!
Why are the atheists so interested? They must be looking for something. I really hope they find it.
they are so insecure in thier position that they have to tear down the church to make them feel like thier decision that God dosent exist wont end them up in hell
First, it's only the light hearted believers who claim to be Jesus' followers but then got squeamish by someone questioning the inconsistencies of their belief. What happens to the saying.. The truth will set you free... or is it as long as the truth does not hurt your feeling? You need to make up your ... feeble mind.
Christianity claims itself to be the moral guardian and holder of the absolute truth. Not least, it also gets tax free status. Now this fact alone puts Christian Churches at the centre of public interest and debate. Simply put, other taxpayers have to pay more in order so that Christian churches pay none. No taxation without presentation, as the saying go. In Christian Churches case, it is even more so with taxpayers.
Lastly, I don't have any issue with your belief. But I do with your almighty God. I dare call Him a conman, a fraudster, a psychopath, a liar and a bastard who said nice things but has done absolutely nothing with His supposed attributes of Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnipresence and Benevolence.
What a sh*t Being. Let Him appear and defend Himself.
We agnostics are willing to look at falsafiable evidence. I don't expect to ever see any, though.
Now that the Shamans of Sex are all under one roof, perhaps someone can ring up SEAL Team 6 to apprehend the NON-Emeritus Protector of Pedophiles lounging in Castel Gandolfo?
Nothing you say is constructive.
Atheist's remarks are certainly more credible than anything that you and your fellow child-rape apologists have said.
Let me congratulate you on the irrefutable logic of your position.
As an apologist for the catholic church....logic is obviously a foreign concept to you.
Cardinal Sean of Boston as the new Pope!
Let me tell you something about Sean O'Malley. First I'll tell you about myself. I'm a child victim of the RCC. I have Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) because of them and I also have PTSD which later comes with DID. For many years now I have been reclaiming amnestic memory and I record it. My problem, the RCC was so clever they left little solid evidence for me to use meaning going to law enforcement. But with the evidence I do have I'll be going to law enforcement and soon in fact to tell them my story. Getting back to Sean O'Malley. When Sean was eighteen years old he was yet ordained as a priest. The LA Salette Shrine in Attleboro, MA was his stomping ground back then and his best friend was Bernard Law. These two monsters were some of my primary assailants. Bernard Law was into occult mind control and he used DID child victims for his subjects. DID personality alters can be manipulated and that's what Bernard was after. One of the objectives of Bernard Law was to produce sex slaves for the RCC clergy and not just regular slaves but slaves who could become amnestic to what happened afterwards. How was Sean involved? Sean was a sadist and he would traumatize children inflicting them with DID and with victims already inflicted Sean would beat them into submission. Sean and Bernard were not pedophiles. They were homosexuals and were into occult. Bernard did not molest children but he did undress them and being polite he'd try to convince the victims that committing homosexual acts on adults was okay. Sean like I said is not a pedophile but in words he would commit suzies with his victims meaning he would sexually molest them but basically he would do it just for sadistic reasons. Sean enjoyed hurting children. Bernard was the ring leader and he had other priests other than just Sean within his circle. Bernard had a tough time with me though since I would not go along with committing homosexual acts. Because I was DID he did not want to waste me in words and so he would bring me to what he called the Milk House. A nun convent located in Jamaica Plain, MA. The nuns there were more vicious than the men were. It was disgusting. Those @!$%#ing bitches would hump me and spray their liquid all over me during their orgasms and afterwards they would wash me inside a tub with straight cold water.
I will end my comment here by saying to you, Sean O'Malley is an evil sick @!$%# who hides behind a sociopathic mask.
still seeing a whole team of psycologists are we?
If you are referring to me, I did have them in the past. Evaluation and test treatments. Unfortunately safe treatment was impossible. Because I was severely fragmented my brain would convulse to the point my body vitals would malfunction and so treatment was potentially lethal. I had to let PTSD take care of it for me over the years and I was able to break the treatment obstacle. Basically I no longer need doctors. Mother nature (PTSD) is my doctor today.
guess i need to do a little more research into this disorder, best wishes
They gotta load up on Grappa this weekend.
Check to smell of the smoke coming out of the chimney, also.
What?