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Ghazi Balkiz / NBC News
Cardinal Francis George sits during mass at San Bartolomew Church in Rome, on Sunday.
ROME — An American cardinal in Rome hinted Sunday at the difficulty of deciding who should be the next pope, saying the papal conclave was a time when “the will of God is not entirely clear.”
Chicago’s archbishop, Cardinal Francis George, asked for “help and prayers” as he and 114 other cardinals prepared to enter the papal conclave to elect a successor to Pope Benedict XVI.
“I ask you for your prayer to help the Holy Spirit to be present among us to open our hearts and our minds to what is the will of God for his people throughout the world," he told reporters after saying mass at the local church assigned to him during his stay in Rome.
He added: "This is a momentous occasion, when perhaps the will of God isn't entirely clear to many of us."
Vatican observers say the choice is wider than it has been in modern memory, with no emerging consensus on who should be the next leader of the world’s 1.2 billion Catholics.
George, 76, will enter the conclave on Tuesday afternoon along with fellow Americans including Cardinal Tim Dolan, Archbishop of New York and Cardinal Sean O'Malley of Boston.
In a sign of the speculation that a U.S. cardinal could be the next pope, there was a huge media presence at the Santa Maria della Vittoria where O’Malley appeared to bring star power to Sunday’s mass.
Carol Grisanti / NBC News
The Bernini sculpture, The Ecstasy of Saint Teresa, at Santa Maria della Vittoria church in Rome, where Father Sean O'Malley said mass on Sunday.
“My goodness, the church hasn't been this full in a long time,” joked one priest. “Did you see that?” whispered one nun to another as O’Malley swept into the church, blessing the congregation with holy water while television crews looked on.
“Let us pray that the holy spirit will give us the guidance to choose the next pope,” he said, before expressing gratitude to the congregation and gesturing to the church’s chief attraction – a Bernini sculpture, “The Ecstasy of Saint Teresa,” which was featured in Dan Brown’s novel “Angels and Demons.”
But it was the media-savvy Dolan who had the best lines for reporters outside his assigned local church, Our Lady of Guadalupe in the blue-collar district of Monte Mario.
Speaking about the choice facing him and his fellow cardinals, he said: “They have a saying in Italy: ‘You can only make gnocchi with the dough you’ve got.’”
He also hinted that he hoped the new pope would be in place by March 19, which is St. Joseph’s Day.
“Wouldn’t it just be beautiful if we could have a new pope on St. Joseph’s Day?” he told reporters.
Cardinal George gave communion at the 10th century Basilica of St. Bartholomew, which has a dramatic setting on Tiber Island in the middle of the Tiber River.
Children among the congregation lined up for his blessing during the service.
“It was a very special day for the young ones,” said Francesca Scambia, 49, whose children Massimo, 13, and Tommaso, 10, were among those to be blessed as about 200 worshippers looked on.
“It is great for us to see a cardinal, particularly at this important time for the church as they prepare to enter the conclave, and it was a nice service,” she said.
George, who was born in Chicago and suffered from polio as a child, underwent bladder cancer surgery six years ago and was last year treated again after more cancerous cells were found in his kidneys.
Alastair Jamieson / NBC News
Cardinal Francis George of Chicago gives mass at the Basilica of St Bartholomew on the Tiber Island in Rome, Sunday.
Related:
Riots, revenge and royal rigging: A history of controversial conclaves
Will Catholics embrace change? The view from one parish in Rome
Leave a Comment:
My money's on the Canadian guy
What? The will of an imaginary invisible made up creator is not clear? Go figure!
The will of the creator as transmitted to man is unclear? Shucks, toss a coin, it becomes real clear.
I vote for the guy who is so "pretty in pink"....wawawa so hard to take any of this serious when it's all based on mythological figures to begin with.
". . . with no emerging consensus on who should be the next leader of the world’s 1.2 billion Catholics."
Um, isn't that supposed to be Jesus Christ, the "Lord of lords and King of kings?" Or is the Will of God a little unclear to the perverse and corrupted?
"The will of God is unclear"
The last time it was clear it was written on a tablet.
Stating the obvious.
That's why we want a Pope to interpret God' Will.
The Church is very predictable, it will be another European!
It is difficult to believe, in this day and age, that supposedly educated people actually believe that a god turns itself into a pigeon and sends pyschic messages to men so they pick the next grand high poobah.
"This is a momentous occasion, when perhaps the will of God isn't entirely clear to many of us."
That shlt didn't work for me in the seventh grade.
The Will of God is quite clear!
Illegal aliens are thieves in the eyes of God!
Stop supporting them!
Notfiveo, there is no imaginary, invisible made up creator. The creator is real. You are imaginary.
That's because God could not care less who the Pope is. He doesn't care any more about that particular human being than he does about you or I. But when the final audit takes place there will be many of these "holy men" paying some big prices for what has been done by members of their clergy, in His name.
If god created man in his own image the will of god "is" the will of man.....I guess we're all in trouble.
The actual will of God is not unclear. The divergence of the church's will from God's will is the problem. Since when does a man tell God what to do? Evidently in the church of Rome this is standard practice. The established will of God was clearly defined by his son Jesus Christ. The systems around the world that ignore the established will of God through Jesus Christ ignore the responsibilities to that will. So like the chosen people of the old testament they finally arrive at "it is better that one man die than the nation" or (system) in this case. The system is all about "having a form of religion, but denying the power thereof". Jesus Christ transcends religious dogma and man made rules to tell us He is the way, truth and life. There is no other alternative for salvation than Jesus Christ. "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" Jesus said. The majority of religions have replaced Jesus Christ with a system of rules made by men and women that actually violate the truth about God. God is love, truth, life, and the power to transform lives. Systems, man made rules and traditions try to replace the truth about Jesus Christ and God with formulas that allow for control and power to be centered in the organization and not in God. His will is clear, "He is not willing that any should perish but have eternal life". Jesus Christ made that choice possible for all humanity not just members of one group or another. Asking Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit into your life will change you into a child of his kingdom not this worlds. His will is clear but "spiritual things are spiritually discerned" not legislated by flawed men and women to others.
If an organization seeks to maintain control over other peoples lives through tradition, practice, or hierarchy is of this world and not the world to come. Points to ponder no matter what religion you may adhere to.
God is not a man that uses our ways or logic...He is totally other centered and selfless...not something that is on display by many major religions today. Pedophile priests, political power struggles, forced celibacy for priests and nuns all violate God's clear will as stated in scripture. It was God that ordained marriage and family as a way to confront our natural desire for selfishness. It was God that created Adam for Eve and Eve for Adam so they might be more complete. He is the designer of loving relationships at every level. That is part of God's established will...the results of ignoring that are on display for all to see in the Church of Rome. If they want to seek his will they must renounce their personal and political agendas and seek to become selfless like Jesus Christ. Instead you will see them continue to embrace self preservation and system preservation and the history will continue to be the same as before.
'god' is an idiotic idea promoted by immoral people to control and pacify the weak minded.
Notfiveo... CLASSIC!!!!!!
These cardinals will soon realize the "the will of God" will be whatever the Pope decides it will be.
wow so many negative comments wheres your blind faith people geez
well i dont care who the next pope is as long as he gives to the poor including his golden throne
the church is so rich and self righteous its sickening
i have no problem with god its his fan club i cant stand
Hello folks, the will of a good and righteous God has never been housed in the Vatican.
The problem is not just with the number of priests who molests young children, but in
a Vatican power structure which harbors and conceals pedophiles, hides other sexual behavior patterns among its clerics and uses the strategies of duplicity and counterattack against the victims.
Pedophile priests have molested innocent children in the Roman Catholic Church probably since the beginning of the church. These pedophiles have been protected and their horrendous crimes against children have gone unpunished. It is amazing to me that there are over a billion Catholics. I guess acceptance of pedophilia in the church is the cost of "salvation"!
We are witnessing the decline and fall of the Vatican. The Pope has to remain in Vatican City in order to take advantage of the Sanctuary Laws afforded to Vatican City. If he leaves, there is a warrant for his arrest and he will be charged for crimes against humanity. The Vatican is nothing but a front for money laundering, tax evasion, theft, bribery and occult corrupt practices against humanity. The poor sheeple that remain in the church will continue to be fleeced. It's their free will and choice, but once again don't push it off on other people as fact or reality.
You confuse 'God' and 'religion'. Religion is the customs and traditions created by controlling men in order to manipulate others. The "customs and traditions of men" are what Jesus said he had come to abolish. Unfortunately his message merely replaced existing religions with a new one which was just as flawed. "God" is not dependent on religion but is independent of it.
An apt description of the White House and Congress.
This was an article posted just so liberals could attack people with religion.
Just slightly childish for the so-called journalists to do.
If these idiots don't know Gods law by now it can only prove to the weak minded that it wasn't God's true religion in the 1st place.
When 3 president candidates told people that "God told me to run for the president". What do you guys think the "will of God" mean? They all lost the election.
Maybe God told them to disband the fraudulent Vatican long ago, but they just refuse to do that. Just like all those president candidates.
The will of God not perfectly clear? Seriously? It's Gods will that you not be a secret society hiding behind your robes while being child rapists and gay radicals. Bunch of sick perverts. Anybody who stands up for or defends these sickos deserves to burn in Hell right along with them.
The "winner" gets to wear the Catholic Church's silliest costume!
Catholic cardinals, bishops, etc. look like characters we laugh at on Star Trek...
Larry was right..last time the will of god was clear was on the 15 commandments on these 3 tablets....Ooops....Crashhhhh!... on these Ten Commandments on these 2 tablets.
Why does the church have to use those awful smelling incense in church?...How about a change to....say...some French vanilla, or Cinnamon apple pie, or berry fresh breeze.....anything is better than that skunky smell of death waved at you!
Look at those pictures of the churches...how about selling those church properties and getting a modest little building and using the leftover money taking care of the sick and poor, the homeless, the hungry....
I think that the Cardinals should ask the Jews and Muslims about the will of god because they are all praying to the same Abrahamic deity, if you believe that said god exists?
My personal opinions is that it is a game of make believe and the one of who is most deluded or Machiavellian gets to dress up like a human TicTac for the remainder of his life.
CITGAB, you are so right. All religions past, present and future, were, are and will be created by man. Posters here citing Bible verse are citing from which version of The Holy Bible????? The God version, the Jesus version,??????????? All together now, THE KING JAMES VERSION, and he deserves the right to do that why??? He was in charge of the known Anglo world at the time. There is no historical record that he ever walked on water. Don't get me wrong, there are some pretty good lessons in that book. However, it is not the word of God!!! Try this on for size; You're walking down the boardwalk at the shore or the main street in your hometown and you come upon a person standing on a milk crate stating that God has spoken to him/her saying that this or that will happen in the next 60 days. How would you treat this person and what they had to say? Correct me if I'm wrong, but most are ignored and some end up in the psych ward. 3,000 years ago the mindset of the average human being was quite different than it is today. Little or no technological understanding and a need to believe in something that would maybe help bring them out of poverty and "deliver them from evil". What a track record religion has in that respect. The last armed conflict that was fought over POLITICAL ideals was what happened in Viet Nam. Every armed conflict in the world since then has been fought over religious ideals. Organized religion, what a wonderful concept. Responsible for more deaths and destruction than anything else since the beginning of the Human race. Non believers beware, "He's coming to get you, Margaret."
Hey honest....seems to me jesus and god ...whatever....said to take care of the sick and poor.....these very same people start wars, molest children, invest in property all over the place instead of taking care of the needy...Everytime I hear someone preaching God......you know there is money flowing for new cars and costumes and trips around the world, bigger more extravagant churches ,...and the homeless guy on the corner just wants a meal......
The best lover, and a preacher, are like musicians playing every note that needs to be played for that moment, for that song being played, and every song is then different from all the rest. Most will not know they were just taken for a ride, maybe one or two will now know.....I give you the last verse of the song.
God is nothing but a persons use of their imagination to explain something that is a "mystery" to them and others. When one person decides their explanation is the correct explanation, that belief is then used to persuade others that the originator of that thought (explanation of the mystery) is above everyone elses thought. Thus elevating that person in his/her mind to a higher status , first to themselves then to others, in order to hold sway over the opinion of others. It is the creation of power over at first one person and then others. With power comes special privileges in many forms. Gift giving freely, gift giving for special treatment of taking away mysteries( evil spirits). Sacrifices which release ones own self worth and transferring it to another person. Religions in primitive form show evidence of the scheme to take away objects such as food and clothing in return for special treatment /protection/good hunting/fertility /etc. Creating cures in simple incantations and then actually stumbling across real cures with the use of plants and minerals and up the chain to modern medicine. Science explains, while religion goes all the way back to the origin of ...one persons imagination creating the myth of a god that satisfies their need for
explanation.
I've studied the history of Dakota Native Americans for 27 years from the 1860's and further back. There was a white missionary named Sam Pond who lived among them most of his life. He had the time to ask most all medicine men and women of the tribe, of numerous bands, of numerous villages of the Dakota , their primitive thoughts of Dakota religion. Witnessing the base primitive thoughts, actions, and deeds of the religion, the only common consistent story thread he found was each person had their own story, and to that story they were all sticking to it!
The whole world is one tribe, and broken down into the hundreds of millions of religions, each one thinks theirs is the true religion..........and by god...they are sticking to it.
I think even the catholic church's imaginary friend would be a little down on the pederast priesthood, if he existed. Why isn't that clear?
'The will of God is not entirely clear'
That gives you a little wiggle room when you get a hankering for a little boy.
Obviously they haven't been talking to some of these church heads in America who are in direct contact with God and know how to tell you what he wants in a heart beat.
Perhaps they should admit some females to the clergy. They could participate in the now boys-only conclave and decisively tell us what god's will is. Or maybe they should plan round-robin chess. Or maybe they should duke it out, last man standing.
Actually, kind of amazing that a supernatural being who can do "anything" hasn't been able after all these years to establish a system of effective communications with the human race.
In the end, there is clarity on the selection and it has nothing to do with the will of some omnipotent absentee father figure. No, the dudes in red capes will take a vote and choose the next pope, it really is that simple. What's really unclear though, is when the RCC will address their unholy nebulous policies regarding the perversion of some priests and their involvement with children.
I think the world is in need of a new higher power or God. One who will clearly state the mandates to be followed. I think the first mandate should be to quit flushing our long term futures down the toilet. My big question is should this new higher power be created by whom?
Why only give him credit for the "good" he is responsible for designing, and not the bad as well, such as giving men free will, evil, war, greed, murder, corruption, etc., etc., etc.?
This is why "believers" are seen as hypocritical; giving their creator credit for good, but blaming man for the bad, even though the creator is the creator of everything, good and bad.
God saw this article....and boy....SHE is pissed!
'The will of God is not entirely clear':
No @!$%#, Sherlock! god doesn't exist, that's why.
Yep, it's so unclear that you can't even see your own God. I wonder when man last had a conversation with his god, and did his god actually speak back, or is he just hearing voices in his head like all religious sheeple and charlatans do.
Religious is nothing more than a pyramid scam. It's time to end it and start saving the sheeple from these thieving charlatan preachers.
The will of God was obviously pretty obscure last go round. In fact human common sense was pretty much abandoned. Whatever possessed them to elect a former Nazi, shoe fetishist, pedophile concealing misogynist PIG, it wasn't God, I'm pretty sure.
Perhaps, just perhaps "the will of God" lied more with the Gnostics of old, then with those who established them as "holy mother church" in the centuries which were then, yet to come to pass... But then, certain divergence would have occured a long time past, perhaps in the days of Constantine itself... Oh well...
Edit: OK, I did only hit the reply button once, so how did it post twice at the same exact second?... Both this and the prior post has EXACTLY the same number of seconds to edit each, too... Go figure
“the will of God is not entirely clear”
2 Timothy 3:6-8 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.
For an individual to not grasp the concept that some intelligent Being didn’t create the universe is beyond me but is that not what free will is about? Now many have come to a consensus to call that Creator God. Mankind being the dominate creature on this speck of dust in this universe will never be able to create a
man because of the fact the substances of which we are created were also created to create them. Now God being a much far superior being has given the creature man/woman the power to do his own
will, to make their own choices. They can choose to Live or die Love or hate believe or not to believe to try and explain or not try to explain that the Creator/God was outside this universe when God created it and like a potter having the right to destroy his on work if/when God chooses to do so will be outside it when it is destroyed. About 99.9% of all mankind believe in a God but they have difference of opinions. For that .1% they will believe if they find themselves in a foxhole or are near death begging for their life to have one more day to live. And just like all science/Pseudoscience (since almost all science is seudoscience) they will be unable to explain the answer why and will come to the final conclusion of that is the way the creator wanted it. May God Bless you with a better understand of the Creation and may you learn to Love and be amazed by it.
For someone to think "god did it" is beyond me, and it also shows intellectual laziness!
An argumentum ad populum!
If there was a god, there would be no such thing as free will or choice.
Again, an argumentum ad populum.
That would be a fear response, which in no way eastablishes any sort of true belief or fealty, much less proves there's a god to begin with!
Apparently, your knowledge of science i9s quite lacking and you have replaced scientific knowledge and logical thinking with dogmatic tripe.
Prove there is a god!
I cannot wait to find out who they choose as the next gilded turd.
@William Travis
Not likely. Hispanics are Catholicizing large areas of Texas and the southwestern U.S. that have been WASP territory since the end of the Mexican-American War.
Ah ah, God's playing mind games with the pedophiles. Gee, I wonder why?
His will is clear, you just don't understand it because you are too busy with earthly matters.
What? Is there not one cardinal who's not a pedophile?
What an idiot, blinded by your own bigotry.
How about: there is no god, it's all the will of man, and the will of man has always been to screw as many victims as possible.
There. All solved now.
save the environment: It is so sad that your chosen myopia only allows you to see pedophilia and not the myriad good works done in the name of the Lord by the Catholic church. Perhaps as you mature you will acquire a broader perspective that includes more than just your ignorant, hateful rhetoric. And for the record, I'm not Catholic nor do I associate myself with any organized religion.
god's will,lol. If there is a god,He isn't represented by ANY organized religion. That's for god dam sure ;)
If there is a god and He writes a book,I'll buy it.
Men writing a fictional tale? May as well read Stephen King,although,I do prefer Rodenberry's stuff.
You typed this a mere 9 minutes after you typed this.
I shouldn't have to state why you said that. Just scroll up to see your own hypocrisy.
Do as you say, not as you do, correct?
Don't forget. You can always blame it on Satan.
Save the Environment <>>> <>>> <>>> Since you are so all knowing, then I implore you to name the cardinals who are pedophiles. If you do not, then you should be arrested for suppression of evidence.
Matilda, I'm not impressed by humans overall, they breed that's for sure.
Cardinals, politicians, etc, most authority figures are too often corrupt or complacent. A cardinal doesn't mean much to me, neither does a politician. They have power, which is an illusion soon unraveled by their very earthly flaws. Why should I accept their mightiness?
Cardinals? They are either pedophiles or pedophile condoning, so they are all pedophiles in the same Hefty bag. The evidence is in the alley.
As far as arresting me, good luck with that. Send me a cardinal, a politician and a cop, I'll take them on.
Maybe if they turn over the thousands of catholic pedophile priests to the police, they will enjoy more clarity.
David, why don't YOU turn over the names of those thousands of pedophile priests to the authorities??? What !!! Did I hear you say that you don't have those names? Then why are you so sure the Catholic Cardinals do. Granted, they would be in a better postion to learn their names than you, but they have, in fact, already turned over thousands of names. What makes you so sure they are holding back on thousands more???
@ Matilda
You've given one of the worst defenses towards the constant cover-up of the RCC I've heard yet. The church has purposely withheld documents of reported pedophile priests from authorities because they hold special privileged over the rule of law given their "religious" nature. No business would ever survive such horrendous corruption, but somehow the 'church' gets away with it, and has been for hundreds of years. Thank goodness our forefathers had the hindsight to strike this nonsense from the laws that dictate us today.
Cardinal Mahoney (sp?) sure had a list of names. But he did NOT turn them over to police, and even though he actaully shielded child rapists, he has a vote in who the next pope will be.
It seems strange that someone who actually shielded child rapists gets a say in who will be the next pope. Strange and sick.
'The will of God is not entirely clear'
You mean that God is telling different Cardinals different things? LOL.
After all in the old testament he was a real mean old guy.
I overheard God last night; He was mumbling "eeny, meeny, miney, moe....."
It will soon become quite clear to 2/3 of them that Sinead O'Connor is to be the next pope. And she won't be very nice to the miscreants.
jiboree --ha ha hah that's because god is playing cardinals against each other to see who is righteous enough for the job
the church is in trouble i hope it all collapses to the ground so that people will wake up and stop believing in fairytale
The will of god IS clear. My mom always said "God helps those who help themselves."
That's more than enough PROOF that there IS NO GOD. Do something FOR YOURSELF,not your imaginary pal.
God will not give you the answers. That's cheating.
"The Will of God is not entirely clear..." Yes it is. But only to a TRUE Church of God(Shepherds Chapel). I'm pretty sure that an organization that allows and supports pedophiles, has absolutely nothing to do with God, WHATSOEVER!!
Yeah like a god would talk to a bunch of old gay men.
Chasoak, Alex is talking about Pedophiles, and it has nothing to do with Gay men. The Catholic hierarchy has put it's own tit in the wringer over it's refusal to "out" these perverse clergymen. Look for more to this story about the previous Pope stepping down.He(Ratzinger) was warned by Anne Burke, a Judge in Chicago about legal ramifications the Church would face by ignoring the sex abuse problem. Judge Burke a Catholic, was volunteering legal services for the Chicago and Milwaukee diosese when she discovered the problem. She advised Cardinal Ratzinger to take legal action on the known pedophiles in an attempt to say this is not tolorated,yet her advise was on deaf ears!
It's always a treat to watch two Catholic bashers fight with each other.
LisaNan,
Perhaps by the name calling and misdirection you might be part of the problem and not the solution. Jesus Christ would never use such tactics to win the world to himself.
alex zuniga ----( shepherds chapel ) really are you one of those that think your religion or church's @!$%# doesn't stink like the rest of Christianity or any other religion
that whats wrong with religion ( I'm better than you because MY religion is the true religion ) and your going to hell ha ha ha hah
Jesus H. christ. You HAVE to be shi##ing us Notsosure10.
@Notsosure10 - Well, Jesus died about 2,000 years ago, so not sure what you are referring to....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SSxgnu3Hww8
Actually if one looks at the account the Christian Bible gives, then no, Jesus didn't refrain from speaking out against those in the temple when he over turned the tables of the money changers and said "I will not have my father's house turned into a market place", and he hardly refrained from giving the Pharasies or the Saduces a piece of his mind, time and time again. Nor did he refrain from giving them both barrels, and speaking to them quite harshly at times...
I do believe, that he wouldn't have been anymore gentle to pedophile priests and cardinals in a church that purports to be HIS OWN church, then he would have been to the Pharasies and "doctors of the law", who, well... Paul, by that account, might have had a few choice words for them, as well....
God's Will is VERY clear. How can such learned men say it is not? READ YOUR BIBLES!
ohhh!!! yeah lets believe in a magic book.
Read this remarkable book of fiction many times cover to cover. Some of it is very well written and makes for great historic fiction.
Maybe you should read it again only this time read it with a willing-open heart and a closed judgemental mind.
Ya, read it again with a closed mind. Then you may be able to confuse myth with reality.
amen Frank!
Do you mean the Holy Book of Mumbo-Jumbo?
when a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs(posters) , it is the dog that was hit , that barks the loudest , if the shoe fits
'Maybe you should read it again only this time read it with a willing-open heart and a closed judgemental mind'.
OK. I tried with an open mind but still wonder about the following:
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Chinese, but not Japanese. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Japanese?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord -- Lev. 1:9. The problem is, my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. Clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination -- Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wriggle room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev. 24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
burn bibles
@JohnCitz
It is funny that people quote Old Testament quite often to try to win an argument, but when others quote the same thing, they said "you need to use the New Testament because that is the teaching of Jesus".
In this case, it's "Do as I say, not as I do".
'...they said "you need to use the New Testament because that is the teaching of Jesus'.
I am not entirely sure of your point.
But taking a generic approach, it goes something like this.
Christianity holds as a doctrine that OT gives rise to NT. I think what it means is that because Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command, they were sent out of Eden and the whole human race started sinning ever since.
In other words, without OT, the doctrine of Jesus coming down from heaven to atone for the sins of mankind would be a load of .... cow dung, right? So Christians can't simply dismiss OT as just stories...
If however Christians then pick and choose the parts of OT that are only suitable to today's environment, the question of how does one know that church leaders are not simply make it up as they go along in order to continue getting donations for light works and comfortable living conditions for themselves... What was God's ideas in rule 1 versus rule 2, etc. .
From another angle, it's clear that God's teachings are ... wait for it.. subject to the wimp of man... and changeable. Like the OT sanction slavery. What does that say about the absolute truth throughout the ages portrayed by Christianity.
Now don't let me raise a fine point about the incestuous relationship b/w Eve and her son, Cain, in order to procreate to where we are now. If you truly believe in the Bible....
The part I'm not sure about is if Sauron's will is in the ring, why do all of those people want it . . .
Oh wait, wrong magic book.
One can read fiction for 2000yrs and it is no more valid now than it was then. Wonder what happened to those poor souls who lived hundreds of thousands of years before the Bible? Why did a god feel the need to create multiple species of humans?
Or one can look at what happened with Codex Sianiticus, and the many textual changes that occured by "9 correctors" who deemed they were "correcting the sacred scripture" wrt then established church doctrine to see where this can lead. But then the whole canonazation process that for instance chose the Gospel of Thomas as being out, even though carbon dating and textual analysis can suggest that it is older, and of a date that puts it at an earlier century then many books that got canonized can suggest much the same...
Constantine and others were certainly clever, I'll give them that. But we're essentially to take their word as to which books should have got called the Bible and which ones weren't. And as with the above mentioned Gospel of Thomas, it wasn't always the latter books that got excluded, sometimes it was the ones written much closer to the first century AD, arguably the more original work...
"There isn't one" is a pretty compelling explanation.
Does anyone still think these klueless korpulent kweens believe in any god? They're all about $$$$$$$$$ and power. And, possibly, high camp fashion.
and young boys....oh, deah, oh deah....
I think the world is in need of a new higher power or God. One who will clearly state the mandates to be followed. I think the first mandate would be to quit flushing our long term future down the toilet. My big question is should this new higher power be created by whom?
If there is a god his will is unclear only because," there are none so blind as those who will not see." Catholics, open your eyes !
There are none so intellectually challenged as those that claim to see things that they cannot prove.
yeah, Barney, just like atheists.
To Those following this discussion . . .
Biblical Apologist/Christian Evangelist & former Roman Catholic priest Richard Bennett extends an invitation to watch his latest video entitled ‘The Biblical Uncovering of the Pope and the Papacy . . .
Dear Friend,
More than 21,700 have shown an interest in this DVD. Why are people so curious? The reason is that none but the Lord God could have so precisely described beforehand the office of the Pope and Papacy. Man could never have anticipated the Papacy; only God foretells it. That a power claiming to act for God, to be “as God,” in the midst of the Christian Church, flouting His truth and mocking His own Holiness, defies imagination. Yes, a sacramental system and false pretenses have ruled the world for ages from the very same seven-hilled city where the pagan Roman Empire once ruled by military force. Nonetheless we trust the Lord of Grace to save many precious Catholics from this system.
Thank you, Richard Bennett
******
Mr. Bennett's timely video 'The Biblical Uncovering of the Pope and the Papacy' can be viewed here:
June . . . It is so nice for you to be concerned for the 1.2 Billion Catholics around the globe but you need not worry, they are in Christ's loving care and their souls are secure. Obviously, you do not believe in the Doctrine of the Catholic Church and you have been taught that because there seed is from Rome when pagans ruled the land, the association binds them forever. I will not argue the point, I would never try to change your outlook on what you believe to be truth. You have a free will and have made your choice, and I respect that.
If you review the history of the Catholic Church, there has always been controversy and problems, today is no different except that, in this day and age the news travels instantly. Those of you who mock God's Church have good reason, I'm not here to defend the indefensible, the men have proven time and time again they are falible, just as Jesus showed us when he had problems with three of the twelve he hand picked to be his diciples. One doubted him, one denied him and one ultimately betrayed him. You think his successors would have a better time of it?
What is right and just is Jesus himself, that is and has been for the past 2000 years existing within the framework of the Catholic Church, yes, even in the midst of man's faliblity. Those followers, the one's who hear the word and "understand it", remain true to the Church established by Jesus himself through Peter.
It's not enough to "read the word", one must understand it and not allow any human to come between himself and his Lord. As members of God's Church we condemn the sin, and pray for the sinner, but remain true to the church Jesus claimed the "gates of hell shall not prevail against".
I know you agree with none of this and that is fine, but there are 1.2 Billion who do and you cannot deny them their free will. If you truly believe we are in peril; then pray for us and our Church that God will have mercy upon us, we will welcome your efforts.
And those of you who find folly with all this God nonsense, and have fun mocking God's Church, have at it. I wish you no harm and pray for your sake you are not harming yourself.
I say the will of God is to pick someone who is decent & will not tolerate phedophile behavior....
The Borgias whose head of the family was a pope who had with a beautiful mistress and tactics of a mafia boss, season 1 and 2, are available on DVD.
They provide an account of how a pope maybe elected in the conclave... You could see how the Almighty God really worked.... with one of his successors. Not sure how much of that will be relevant this time..
Very interesting...
vinnycee,
Since when is the majority always correct? Since when was a quote about the disciple Peter become a quote about the Roman Catholic Church? Did not Jesus himself say I have other sheep not of this flock? You should consider what it means to "have a form of religion and deny the power thereof". Since when did Jesus need a priest or church to speak for Him when he said the truth was so simple even a little child could understand? Anytime you place a fallen human between you and Jesus Christ you are in danger of being mislead by those who want to hang on to power. Jonestown anyone?
Maybe you should rethink the whole "church" authority thing since Jesus said all his follower were to be "priests" or representatives of him through out the world.
By the way when does might (1.2 billion members) make right? How about that whole "Dark Ages" period in world history when the Church of Rome killed millions of people to establish its power and control? This is not the action of a loving God but a system and people bent on selfish aims. When did Jesus ever kill anyone or raise an army while here on earth showing us the Father? Never...these are men's methods not God's.
vinnycee,
The murderous campaigns of the Inquisition; the Crusades; the Croatian Massacre carried out under the auspices of the Roman Catholic "church", along with the Vatican Bank Irregularities (Money Laundering) and the Clergy Abuse Scandal / Cover Up brought to light in our day in the providence and mercy of God, militate against Roman Catholicism’s outrageous claim to be Christ’s Church and are wholly inconsistent with His doctrine as it is revealed in God’s Word. These are not works agreeable to those who lay claim to be Christ’s representatives on earth. These are not the works of those who are in truth “guided by the Holy Spirit.” (Matt. 7:16) These are programs and policies that were deliberately (pre-meditated) put in place by the Roman Catholic church at various times throughout her history which originated at the very top echelon of the RC hierarchy, namely the cardinals & popes, and presided over, carried out and implemented by her priests and bishops, and thus cannot be dismissed by the argument so often put forward by Roman Catholic apologists . . that the church is comprised of sinners. These are works that Christ Himself declares to be diabolical in nature and anti-Christian in spirit. “Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning . . . he is a liar, and the father of it.” (John 8:44) Roman Catholicism is not CHRIST’s CHURCH!
Many former Catholics like my husband and I after examining the RC "church" in the light of Scripture have renounced the false religion of Rome in order to wholeheartedly embrace the religion of Christ in truth! It is my fervent hope and prayer that many more will both hear and heed the command of the Lord Jesus Christ as it is found in Rev. 18:4: “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”
Roman Catholicism is not Christ's Church!
JuneAnnette, A Christian by God’s grace & a Witness for Christ
"Former Catholic" tells me all I need to know about you as does your simplistic and incorrect interpretation of Rev. 18.
You sound like one of those crackpot followers of that jailbird cult leader, Tony Alamo.
June . . . . I mentioned in my comments that you would not agree with my perspective on Christianity and this is not the forum to counter your claims that the Catholic Church is not the Church established by Jesus himself. You are entitled to your beliefs and I respect your right to disagree. Your list of allegations are correct, history tells us these events happened, no denying. Why they were allowed to happen is beyond me but it doesn't change the truth.
The United States over it's history has also done some terrible things to other countries and peoples, are you willing to walk away from the US knowing the mistakes of its past and current policies? NO, you work within the system to make it better and rid the country of it's ills if you can; same goes for the Catholic Church.
Why has God allowed this to happen? In one of his parables, he talks about allowing the weeds to grow side by side with the Wheat knowing full well the Wheat might be harmed. Why? Apparently as Christians we are being challenged to exercise our judgment. And yes, there are weeds within the Catholic Church but there are bushels and bushels of Wheat as well. He also tells that at harvest, the weeds will be gathered and burned.
I have no doubt your are a sincere Christian and you believe with all your heart what you are saying and that works for you and that is good. I'm not going to put that down. Whether you will acknowledge it or not, Catholics feel the same as you and are appalled with the actions of "some" of their clergy, not all. And to lump them all together is totally un Christian.
Irony of all ironies would be if "sheep not of this flock" and "in my father's house, there are many mansions. If it was not so, I would have told you" should allude to extra-terestrials, and other inhabited planets. Just sayin.....
It's a sure bet, that doctrines and dogmas established by men, on Earth however, needn't apply to all peoples accross an entire cosmos however...
vinnycee,
Countless experts have sought to explain why the abuse of children is so prevalent and pervasive within the ranks of the priesthood. Perhaps you are familiar with some of the arguments that have been advanced, with one notable exception which I offer for your consideration now.
In his timely commentary entitled: 'The Root Causes for the Catholic Scandals and Sovereignty of God', Richard Bennett, former Roman Catholic priest examines the scandal in the context of Roman Catholic theology/doctrine and in the light of Scripture.
Mr. Bennett has taken great care to present the material in a sensitive and compassionate spirit and with a heartfelt desire to “speak the truth in love” (Eph. 4:15)
By way of a caveat . . it must be understood, however, that in the process of declaring the truth, one must out of necessity denounce that which is false, and as such, this article will invariably challenge your beliefs and disturb your comfort zone.
Excerpt:
“The true nature of the crisis in the Catholic Church is not pedophilia, but homosexuality, which can lead to the abuse of underage boys. The root cause of the predicament is however much deeper. The starting place is the traditional doctrine of the Catholic Church regarding overcoming evil.
There has come upon that Church an “evil … which you will not know how to charm away.” 6 A wound has come upon the Church of Rome that she just does not have the charisma to override.”
6) Isaiah 47:11
I invite you to read the entire article here:
NOTE: If you are experiencing difficulty accessing the article via this link, simply type this phrase into your search engine:
'The Cause of Catholic Scandals and the Sovereignty of God' + Richard Bennett
May God be pleased to grant you discernment!
To those following this discussion . .
Mr. Bennett's timely video 'The Biblical Uncovering of the Pope and the Papacy' . . . examined in the light of Scripture . . can be viewed here:
I would encourage you to be as the Bereans and “search the Scriptures” for yourself to see whether these things are so. (Acts. 17:17)
To those following this discussion . . .
Mr. Bennett's timely video 'The Biblical Uncovering of the Pope and the Papacy' . . . examined in the light of Scripture . . can be viewed at his website: wwwbereanbeacon
May God be pleased to grant you discernment.
I have checked out Mr. Bennett's work, as well as that of the Berean Beacon, and found them all to be false. What they teach does not hold up upon further scrutiny.
Therefore, I would not recommend them to anyone. Thank you for pointing them out though, for indeed everyone should make their own decision, but hopefully on better "evidence" than what they produce.
benedictineacc,
The articles written by Richard Bennett, Biblical Apologist and former Roman Catholic priest, are underpinned by biblical truth. Mr. Bennett's well-researched and insightful articles are truly a labour in love, which reflect his heartfelt desire to reach Roman Catholics particularly with the glorious gospel of free and sovereign grace of our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ in order to their salvation. The burden and sole objective of his ministry, Berean Beacon, is to lead men and women into a personal relationship with the Lord by directing them into the Scriptures of TRUTH.
His studied examination of Roman Catholic doctrines / traditions, as they are set forth in official Roman Catholic documents in the light of SCRIPTURE is an invaluable resource for Catholics to thoughtfully and prayerfully consider. His firsthand knowledge of the inner workings of the RCC drawn from his 22 years as a Roman Catholic priest uniquely qualifies him for this challenging work. More importantly, Mr. Bennett's own conversion experience recounted in his article: 'From Tradition to Truth' uniquely qualifies him to communicate those things which he himself was taught by the Holy Spirit through his personal study of God's Word.
Let each reader decide if they prefer the unscriptural babbling of ROME to the sound biblical exegesis of Richard Bennett, Biblical Apologist. I encourage Roman Catholics to visit his website, www.bereanbeacon.org and decide for themselves if he has born a faithful witness for the TRUTH, one that is in conformity with the Doctrine of Jesus Christ, as it is revealed in the divinely inspired Scriptures.
Over 20,000 have viewed this list of 174 accused clerics
--- http://mnsnap.wordpress.com/villainous-mn-clerics/
Cardinal George, watch the movie "Shoes of the Fisherman"! Maybe it will become crystal clear!
one thing for sure he doesn't like people who abuse kids so the priesthood and the catholic church is in trouble.and it is the unfortunate who must believe that God has chosen them for his own.
The Will of God is the Catholic Church's code for the amount of cash to buy the vote. At least cash is real.
It is OBVIOUS this guy will NOT be the next pope. There are thousands,....not many, but a few thousand that DO KNOW the will of God. They are not Catholic, however, nor protestant, nor muslem, nor hindi, merely just plain Christians. They are those that OBEY GOD. Very few.
The will of God is very clear. "What is done in secret in the innermost rooms will be shouted from the housetops"........Did you frauds really think God was going to let you get away with your crimes against His little ones.
These false teachers should be looking for a large millstone about now....
Your judgement is coming.
You who support them have been scammed.
An astute observation and a daring thing to communicate to the public.
But let's face it: the will of God has always been subject to the interpretations of humans who are flawed and who have purposes, hidden agendas, and reasons to interpret the will of God one way or another to suit those needs.
The "evolution" believers are merely the MOST ignorant. Evolution is IMPOSSIBLE, and that can be proven with mere mathematics, even Darwin said so in his "survival of he fittest", 6th edition, p.68. But many of you clowns will believe anything. God is very proveable, IF you have an open mind. If NOT,....well there you go, dummy. For EVERY cause, there is an effect, now disprove that.
You are an idiot. Not just a plain Christian, but a plain idiot as well.
There's a wall in front of you, IF you have an open mind!...lol. Always a condition....
freddy4life - if you read as well as you write, it's no wonder you "believe" that God is provable and that evolution is false.
Please do yourself, and everyone else, a favor and stick to the subject of God, because you certainly don't know anything about evolution!
Dear God, please protect me from your followers!
freddy, evolution is over on another thread (and true btw.) This is more about posers wielding their power, gained through connections to "god". "God is very provable IF"- I hear many say this, however, just like you, they never actually offer any proof.
Typical christianist: calling people names.
Hey Freddie,
Let’s do a little
math, shall we? The Population
Reference Bureau estimates that, since the beginning of time, 108 billion
people have lived, or are living on the earth.
Now, the Apostle John writes in the Book of Revelations that only
144,000 saved persons will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Since the Book of Timothy says that “All
Scripture is God Breathed”, all true believing Christians MUST accept that all
words written in the Bible come from God because the words have been ‘breathed’
into the minds of the apostles or scribes who wrote them. Therefore; dividing
108,000,000,000 persons by only 144,000 saved gets you 1.3 saved souls for
every 1 million people living or who have lived. So I ask you, do you actually think that out
of 1 million people living around you in your city or state, YOU WILL BE THE
ONLY PERSON SAVED and the remaining 999,999 will be damned to hell?
Dear Freddy, I am curious, and quite openminded, about how, assuming you are right and evolution is impossible, after our wise and loving God committed genocide and drowned everyone on Earth (including children) except for Noah and his brood, how dear child, do we now have Asian, African, European and several other different-looking sorts of humans? We are, after all, all descended from Noah and his clan, right? I'd love to know.
Dear Voice of America,....the creation of "time" was NOT when man was created. Have you never read your Bible or only the United States government's statistics. Harlo,....what part of ignorant didn't you understand? ....and Iamaninfidel,....Even God Himself created YOU,....so you know what you can do with your evolution. Cajuncoo-ass,....what part of "impossible" is it you do not understand. Jerry, go play with your other pedophiles,....evolution is STILL impossible......and back to you VOA,....a true Christian proves what he believes BEFORE he believes it. And by the way,....ONLY God knows who He shall save. And it ain't NOW, buckwheat. Oh, and Justme,....it is God's creation to do with as he pleases and NOT ours. We are merely the created. Oh, and our God is a JEALOUS and does get pissed when there are those who mock him. You'll see and more than likely sooner than you may think. Try 3 overies in Eve.....negro, caucasian and oriental.
Why would I want to play with you? And don't forget, the hobgoblin god you made in your own image and likeness to appease with witchcraft doesn't exist. We dropped a house on it - splat! All that remained were its feet sticking out with holes in them. It never came back again as a zombie after it got stapled to a stick.
You obviously know nothing about evolution!
Ok, prove there's a god then!
Ad hom attacks only damage your credibility.
Prove god is the "cause!" What caused god?
Actually, my parents created me. That is proveable!
Your god sounds like a duche then, and not worthy of worship!
Maybe your god is. other people's god/s seem much more personable.
Empty threats from yo0ur cosmic boogeyman is neither convincing or persuasive!
In light of the many creationists, it is funny how many Jews have had no such hang ups with science. And some Jews I've known have marvelled how the first 5 books of the Christian Bible could have been interpreted quite so litterally, when they themselves didn't take such a litteral view of it all. And the people were like "and it was supposed to have originally been our book. And even we don't take it this literally". They were scrfatching their heads at how some got this literal interpretation out of it all...
To say the least, they were a bit mystified by these creationists, insisting that Judaism has no such problems with science itself...
Jerry-1903677 "Why would I want to play with you? And don't forget, the hobgoblin god you made in your own image and likeness to appease with witchcraft doesn't exist. We dropped a house on it - splat! All that remained were its feet sticking out with holes in them. It never came back again as a zombie after it got stapled to a stick."
Geez Jerry...a little testy are we? I thought you were the one AGAINST NAME CALLING and here you are making fun the beliefs of others. You athiests try to come off as enlightened when all you are are sad pathetic bullies. If you think we are wrong...that's fine. You guys say we try to shove our beliefs down your throat when in reality it is YOU that mock and ridicule. Grow up please.
@Freddy4Life must be a troll, an im-poster, willing to play anti-God and condemn so many previous posters. S/he wrote "evolution is impossible" -- so s/he's telling God that God is not capable of arranging something that's hard for Freddy4Life to understand or explain with cognitive confidence.
Here's something that's hard for me to understand-- What's the point of that trolling, and all those words of ridicule, condemnation, judgement?
this has to be tough one, in lieu of all that has been known. best is to choose who is the leader of the purest followers. (try to bring it back to pure ideology movement) in my humbled servitude to the church opinion.
Just don't pick Obumbum. After all, he is God in his own mind.
God did not create the Catholic church,men did.It is apparent that God has not spoken to them because he does not care who will be named the next Pope.
Right on the money just a cleaning lady. Love your comment
"The will of God is not clear" Maybe because there is no God? * shrug *
This is apropos for the voting of a new Catholic Pope. To quote fictional character Sir Leigh Teabling [Ref: Da Vinci Code]
“..the Bible did not arrive by fax from heaven”.
Just as a bunch of Cardinals saying " The Will of God Is Unclear"
The Catholic Church operates as if it's still the Dark Ages, even though the Cardinals who run it know full well the general population isn't living in ignorance.
Do the Cardinals actually believe that the people believe them? They need to stop thinking 2013 is still the Dark Ages and that the people still live in ignorance.
Actually Steve, it should be obvious that many millions of people still find it far more comfortable and comforting to believe in absolutes and fairy tales than to accept that some questions might just not be answerable.
justme ol' boy....Einstein was WRONG,....and a Jew, too. There ARE absolutes. There is an absolute RIGHT.....and there is an ABSOLUTE wrong. It is so amazing how people can become such educated itiots. ABSOLUTES are real and fairy tales are NOT. Mere make believe, just like the theory evolution which isn't even a THEORY.
An absolute, as defined or understood today, isn't necessarily an absolute, if people learn to transcend it. No, I would say that there isn't necessarily an absolute, in a universe that is not only expanding, but in which the rate of expansion is accellerating; populated by beings, purportedly made in the image and likeness of God, who are themselves progressing. And in which, perhaps, just perhaps this progression, this self transcendence is itself the nature of such that people term God. If the "absolute", if the infinite and the unknowable, so called; what in Jewish mysticism or Kabbalah would refer to as Ein Sof, is itself transcendental by nature; then the absolute of a given moment, isn't necessarily the absolute of all "time" for lack of a better word, to come. If the infinite is in a perpetual state of self transcendence, then one could well question such a defined absolute, as if it was never changing, and set in stone, for eternity... In fact an evolution could almost be suggested in such case, but more along the lines of an evolution of consciousness and being, itself....
Maybe the will of God would be for the so called church to get up of some of its assests and feed the poor. Come on catholics the property owned by this supposed church of God is way past what the church needs to survive.
Stop perpetuating falsehoods. In the USA, after the federal government, Catholic Charities is the largest provider of social services in the nation. Thus, Catholics are obviously feeding the poor. What are you doing?
After the federal government the catholic church is the biggest group of crooks in the world!
Those ruby slippers he wears could feed an entire country.
Go to the Vatican and look at the starving and homeless out side the walls.. then tell me the Catholics are charitable. They ignore them and I have seen it first hand. Truly sad.
justplaintired, do you not know that the Vatican runs a homeless shelter and soup kitchen on its very grounds?
Well, now you know.