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Vincenzo Pinto / AFP / Getty Images
Black smoke rises from the chimney on the roof of the Sistine Chapel on Tuesday.
VATICAN CITY — Black smoke rose above the Sistine Chapel on Tuesday, signaling that 115 Roman Catholic cardinals failed to agree on a new pope during the first day of the papal conclave.
The "princes of the church" began deliberating inside the Vatican after swearing an oath of secrecy and entering the papal conclave at about 5 p.m. local time (12 p.m. ET).
The smoke was created by the burning of ballot papers used by the cardinals in their deciding vote, with chemical cartridges being added to ensure the smoke did not appear to be white — the sign that a decision has been reached. It means the conclave will reconvene on Wednesday morning.
None of the 115 cardinals will be seen or heard, nor will they have any contact with the outside world, until they have chosen a successor to Benedict XVI, who abdicated on Feb. 28.
As the conclave got under way Tuesday, the cardinals' electronic devices were jammed to prevent any communication with the outside world. They will convene again on Wednesday. NBC's Anne Thompson reports.
"They're on their own now," said NBC News Vatican expert George Weigel, referring to the total isolation demanded by church rules.
Shortly after the conclave began, semi-naked feminist activists with the words "pope no more" written on their chests and backs staged a protest right next to St. Peter's Square, directly in front of the Vatican.
They were tackled by police and detained.
The word "conclave" comes from the Latin meaning "with key". It is a church tradition that began in 1268 when local officials became so fed up with the lack of a decision among cardinals — they had deliberated for more than two years — that they locked them away with limited food and water to encourage a result.
Earlier, thousands of pilgrims and tourists waited in line to get inside St. Peter's Basilica for a special pre-conclave Mass with the cardinals.
The "Mass Pro Eligendo Pontifice" began at 10 a.m. local time (5 a.m. ET) in front of a congregation of worshippers who were waiting outside in St. Peter's Square for tickets allocated on a first-come, first-served basis.
Alastair Jamieson / NBC News
Lois Girten, 55, from Austin, Texas, was among those waiting in line to get inside the pre-conclave Mass.
"It’s in the air! You really feel it," said Lois Girten, 55, from Austin, Texas, who secured a last-minute place on a two-week pilgrimage to Rome through a cancellation.
"It’s God’s gift that I’m in Rome just as the conclave takes place. I’m almost speechless with excitement, it’s a real treat for me."
Several thousand visitors were allowed in to take part in the service, according to Religion News Service correspondent Alessandro Speciale inside the basilica.
'Noble mission'
In his homily, cardinal Angelo Sodano, Dean of the College of Cardinals, told the congregation: "My brothers, let us pray that the Lord will grant us a pontiff who will embrace this noble mission with a generous heart."
At night, cardinals will walk or be taken by minibus the short distance to the modest rooms in Casa Santa Marta, which John Paul II had built in 1996.
On purpose and by chance, Americans join crowd in St. Peter's Square to watch for signs of a newly elected Pope.
Such is the importance of secrecy that Vatican officials have installed jamming devices to prevent the use of cellphones by cardinals or hidden microphones by anyone wanting to hear their deliberations.
No conclave has lasted more than five days in the past century, with most finishing within two or three days. Pope Benedict was elected within barely 24 hours in 2005 after just four rounds of voting.
Benedict triggered the election last month with his shock decision to abdicate because of his increasingly frail health — the first pontiff to step down in six centuries.
He leaves his successor a sea of troubles — including seemingly never-ending sex-abuse scandals, rivalry and strife inside the Vatican bureaucracy, a shortage of priests and a rise of secularism in its European strongholds.
Related:
From Rome to Africa: Meet 20 men who could be pope
Conclave smoke signals a bit of a gray area
Full coverage of the papal abdication from NBC News
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The pope delivers his final audience in St. Peter's Square as he prepares to stand down.
Leave a Comment:
who the heck cares ?? all of the candidates look totally gay ... shut the church down once and for all
You must care, for it is in your heart to express your feelings. What does a gay look like, I saw no women. Do you mean homosexual? Why do you wish to dictate how others think? Has your knowledge come from some great Oracle or has it been learned from the those who have preserved it? P.S. sablelace; Why do you roam with the sheep if you are a wolf? A wolf is a carnivorous animal that tears at it's victim with the gnashing of teeth.
Whenever I see these guys dressed up in their funny suits, I think of what Professor Carolyn Porco from Cal Tech said about organized religion;
"All the atoms of our bodies will be blown into space in the disintegration of the solar system, to live on forever as mass or energy. That's what we should be teaching our children, not fairy tales about angels and seeing grandma in heaven".
Gee... must be nice that that Prof. Porko knows, without a shadow of a doubt, that there is no afterlife.
All pomp and circumstance and zero substance. I remember when I got married and my wife insisted on a catholic priest. Went to pre cana and the irony is that the couple teaching it (the devout catholic ones) are now divorced. My wife and I are both atheist and still happily married after 14 years.
Go figure.
As for the priest, I refused to sign any contract involving my first born and told him straight to his face that it was creepy.
I then questioned him on the Adam/Eve, Cain-Able bit of the bible, you know, where Cain was sent away, where he married.. Married whom?
Anyway, he said it was all just a story. So then I asked him if it was a story, and adam and eve not really true, then how could original sin be true? and if that wasn't true, then how could jesus have died for it?
At that point he got red faced and asked me to leave, he said he has $25k invested in his theological thesis and had work to do. He helped me become the atheist I am today. Thank you father Kirwin.
This is what you are seeing in these guys with their special clothes. They do not care what the truth is, or even to look at it.
This is why they are so secretive (which I always say to my kids, never trust anyone that is secretive).
Religion must remain under the rock, as it cannot bear scrutiny under the light of day.
The Roman Catholic church is an athiest/agnostic factory. Your story is just one of millions. Too bad you were not able to distinguish between the Roman Catholic religion and Christianity. What you rejected was not even close to Christianity.
losghost: Great! You profess to all your deceptiveness's, and all is known of you. That is the truth right? I should not doubt you because you have proven the Bible wrong with your superior intellect? Impressive, but you still must have a father and before him also.
Bob,
I am not giving you an argument from authority.
I've read the bible, cover to cover, three times. It's the best way to become an atheist, you should try it.
Let's explore a few things.
First, I think we can both agree that has created religions past and present? They cannot all be true, or even subtle differences pointing to the same theological argument. ie: Jainism, Taosim, Shintoism, Buddhism etc do not prescribe to a god head model, or any gods at all.
That said, then it would be logical to conclude that either only a few possibilities exist: Either one of them is right, all of them are right, one of them is wrong, or all of them are wrong.
Now, what could substantiate the ability of man to get a religion right? Military might? Logical support? Dare I say, demonstrable and testable evidence?
Each claims evidence, typically subjective personal experience that cannot be demonstrated to others. Each claims that it is the only truth.
When you consider that, and you look at each religion on it's merit alone, they simply do not hold up to the scrutiny.
When you, I assume as a christian, look at these other religions. How do you feel about them? Are you worried that you could be wrong about them?
Do you think that they could be thinking of your religion the same way?
Do you think that an atheist simply is adding yours to the list?
You Christians are so blind and brain washed that you really think the Universe is 6000 years old.This is one of the main reason why your country is going behind more and more.There was a reason why the kicked you out from Europe 400 years ago.The sad part is that you will teach ignorance to your children,without giving them not even a chance.
There are many faerie tale creatures in those religions you state have no god head. The fact you have gone to seminary school to learn how to interpret the teachings in the book is not stated. Maybe we should believe you have the ability to decipher all text? Here is a site to read up on those far east spiritual and animal worshipping religions.http://www.realtime.net/~wdoud/topics/religion.html. P.S. Why did you read the Bible more than once? Did not you receive your epiphany after the first reading or is it you are not sure of your understanding?
I have read most of this thread & it strikes me that almost no one who posts on here has any credibility. The folks who protect the religious rights they follow, seem to me to forget the one tenant of their religion, forgiveness. &; it seems apparent to me (By the vicious) comments of those who do not "believe", that whatever you do/don't believe in, has left you a very sorry excuse for a human being, & I just feel sorry. The world deserves better than you.
As for full disclosure. I don't know what I believe. I envy people who have found REAL faith. I wish I could. I believe that science can't explain creation, life, & a soul. I believe that there is room for both, & almost no room for intolerance. Some of the greatest/smartest people I have known are grounded in their religious faith, but never stop questioning. I hope; no I pray there is a God, & one day I meet him/her, & they are proud of the life I lead, & not ashamed for the intolerance of my brother's views; or the intolerance to watch gratefully, as they celebrated a sacred (To some) tradition.
Cardinals to be locked up until one emerges as pope ???????
They should be locked up for 20 to 30 years each for pedophilia, greed, corruption and allowing tens of millions of children to stave to death while the live in the lap of luxury.
Are you suggesting that you do?
Forgive what exactly? In order to forgive, some transgression has had to occur. Is being critical of a belief and presenting arguments to the counter a transgression?
Funny, you pull the same move you berated your fellow faithful of in your very next sentence.
Really? Because we don't believe in magic or bronze age superstition? Being critical of ridiculous claims is not being vicious.
Sorry excuse for a human huh? I served 14 years in the military, put myself through college, work helping the poor and in firmed improve their quality of life in a healthcare setting, provide meals to the homeless, have volunteered for habitat for humanity, volunteer time and donate money to Cancer Research, and all that with no religious *moral* compass. How does that happen? Do you do any of that?
Science has explained life pretty well so far. If you mean meaning of life, again, science (if we are making the process an incarnation) would say that it's whatever meaning you assign to it.
Science was unable to explain the atom, then it did, unable to explain DNA, then it did, unable to explain bubonic plague, then it did. Seeing a pattern?
You need to make a distinction between attacking a person and attacking a bad idea. Religion is a bad idea. It's superstition created by people that had less understanding of the world than the current average fourth grader.
Even the fore fathers of my country ( I assume yours as well) knew this:
They were grounded in science, they were not grounded in faith, but rather, indoctrinated.
I can appreciate your wishful thinking but it's important to remember that the people you suggest *watch* are fully impacted by this. Religion has tried to put itself into every aspect of our lives and you simply do not see it if you are one of the faithful.
Imagine this news coverage for a new world imam or caliphate if you have trouble imagining. Imagine people saying that there isn't enough Allah in schools or that the kufir should just be quiet and watch.
Sorry to say, but we are not sheep. We will not sit and watch and we will not be governed by your superstitions.
There will be a day when you are in the minority, and we are closer to it than further.
If Jesus was here and watched one of these things he'd say WTF?
Not much has changed since stonehenge.
You people do realize that red and black are satanists two strongest colors don't you ? Also if you research you will also find that the catholic church was founded as a pagan religion. after Christ died on the cross the ROMAN Catholic church was started out of fear that most people would have otherwise found the truth in the Christianity that Jesus taught. NOWHERE did Christ Jesus say to worship the soon to come Roman Catholic religion. After all was it not the ROMANS who executed Christ? My bible also tells me to bow down to NO MAN ! Yes that includes a priest.
For Christ sake, throw the F%+$@#G key away.
If I will be nothing more then atoms in the end, then why wait ? I may as well go out and rape and kill and steal all i want, and not care if i shoot and kill people on the way doing it, and hopefully get killed myself in the process because life has no more purpose.
losghost – You seem to be an intelligent poster. One who is not prone to slinging garbage just to put others down, so I will bite. While you make several great points I agree with, you also seem to have an agenda that mares any good argument; through an intolerance for another point of view. In my eyes, that kind of hypocrisy nullifies most of the credibility you are trying to build on this board. Be more than just an average poster losghost. Teach me something new. Lay out in intelligent, cogent set of points that make me think, even turn my point of view. Take the hammer out of your hand & show people you are willing to accept an opposing point of view as well.
I'm not suggesting I have more credibility than anyone. Try to read from a neutral perspective that allows you to take in a few points of view without always looking to be on the attack. I was merely suggesting that all the bashing was a useless form of getting ANY point across. If you read my post as someone who is just bashing, then I am as guilty as anyone.
Yes I believe that there were several transgression's in the posts I read. I believe that the callousness of how peoples beliefs were being attacked were transgressions. Now if you want to have a debate as to the severity of those transgressions, then we can do that on another forum (Not as bad as raping young boys, but certainly worse than taking a dollar from my wife's purse), but transgressions none the less. &; if they exist (To your point), then I would like to think someone with a deep religious set of mores would be more "forgiving" of these classless posts. Personally as a human being I am deeply offended by people who hide behind a keyboard in their parent's basement, spewing things that are disgusting just for a shock factor. I think they are pu55ies. Just giant cowards. Because I would be glad to have this debate with you; in any beer hall, chow hall, or school hall, & appreciate the differences in your point of view. Some of these peoples comments are disgusting! Just my opinion..
Taking things a little personally?!? Since you are fond of quoting the greats; "methinks thou protesteth too much"?? - Will S. (Great, now we have both played the I'm more educated than you game…) I NEVER SAID OR IMPLIED that YOU were a sorry excuse for a Human Being. I suggest a refresher in reading comprehension; that was for people who (AGAIN) used disrespectful language to desecrate others viewpoints. However; IF you did so, then yes, you are just as sorry, & I don't care what you do for cancer research. The same as I don't excuse any well regarded, well serving priest who molested a child. Doing well on one hand does not forgive bad behavior in the other (PLEASE do not make the ludicrous assumption that I am equating nasty posts to child rape). And; for the record, I served 8Yrs in the USMC, also put myself through college, have my own personal cause I fight daily (Great; now we have played the I'm a bigger, more decorated self-starter than you are game…); & I'm not sure who I credit for that "moral" compass. I suppose my grandmother, military school, incredible Marine influences, great wife, an internal belief of what was right & wrong, God's gift to let me find my own way… etc.
That it has. But; here is where I think you get short-sighted. I used life in the context of "why we are here/purpose" perhaps I should have clarified. But, you have an agenda, so you assumed what I was thinking & then here you got condescending…
Agreed. I love science. AGAIN; if you actually read/ingested without presumption (Look that up) my post, you would see that I agree with science, but I am conflicted as to why there can't be room for both?
Science has also had many bad ideas. At times the relentless march to build scientific power that's being used today didn't require any moral discipline to attain it. There are MANY documented cases of generations of scientists reading what others had done and then taking the next step. They themselves didn't secure the knowledge for themselves, so they don't take any responsibility for it. They stand on the shoulders of others to accomplish something as fast as they can & they never thought about if, or whether they should take the next step. You want to list the modern atrocities that the atomic age, or the industrial age has perpetrated on innocents. Science is just as dangerous as religion in the wrong hands sir. By the way, there are modern fourth graders that couldn't survive in a world for an overnight the way ancients could. What you consider progress, I see sometimes as the decay of necessity. Let's hope you never lose power!
You have no idea as to what you speak. You don't know me, you don't know the people I am referring to, & this was perhaps the most ignorant, self-serving thing you wrote. How can you possibly think you can speak for others without knowing them, or at the very least speaking to them?!? On one hand you want to quote me Jefferson, the merits of scientific reasoning, then turn around & do the very thing that some religious wacko does by telling me what these people are or aren't?!? You sir are a hypocrite! And; if you are saying your point is true of all people regardless of belief because we are just biological organisms; then I refute that claim & say, science is grounded in the miracle of existence. It explains the how, IT DOES NOT EXPLAIN THE WHY!!! Again; you are a hypocrite, because you are a bad scientist, you throw away evidence that would invalidate your hypothesis.
If you want to. You don't have to. Turn the channel. But; why be disrespectful to those it means something to. As a veteran, you must realize that in America you can choose not to partake if you don't like. Turn the channel, but quit whining. If 50 million people wanted Allah in the schools, then so be it. I wouldn't send my kids there. Probably move to Australia, but if that's the will of the people, then… Remember losghost; religion has not tried to put itself into every aspect of our lives, people & their views have. I have chosen not to allow them to do that to me, I suggest you toughen up & do the same. Lastly; the whole reading comprehension thing; use it. I never claimed to be one of the faithful. Just a guy trying to keep an open mind, respectfully, & sincerely. Good luck to you Sir.
So you do not do those things out of fear of a god? Is that moral superiority? Some of us do not do those things because that is the right thing to do, according to the golden rule, you know, the one that *isn't* in the bible: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Life has whatever purpose you give it. If you sit on your keister waiting for a mystical being to make it better for you, is that purpose?
Think about what you said.
Air pollution! Why don't they just use a shredder?
@CureCF
Thank you. I do not see mud slinging as a method to get a point across.
That said, I tend to abridge my comments having made the same points to the same arguments ad nausea.
I do have an agenda. It's to knock down some walls that have been up for centuries and make people think of religion in another light, in the light that one would regard a fortune teller or psychic friends hotline. They are selling you the same sort of thing.
I took you post as bashing, and personally as you said to the faithful they should be X and the others Y. I fall in the "others" catagory.
This is exactly what needs to happen. These beliefs need to be scrutinized, how else could you do that without directly assaulting it? Sure, people get upset when their beliefs are challenged, but it needs to happen in order for us to move forward and move past superstition.
I do agree with you to a point that it could be done in a little more sophisticated and classy manner. Some posters here, on both sides, tend to get a little juvenile.
Your statement was left as an either/or. If you recall you berated the faithful, and then turned to the non faithful. This is how you presented.
Your ad hominem as to my reading comprehension gets you no points.
First off, let me apologize if I sounded condescending, that's not the intention, it's just my writing style.
I think when it comes to the why are we here, question, there is one question before that we need to explore: Why do we need to know?
That's particularly important because it defines what value we give to whatever answer we may come across. If we are looking for a purpose specific to humans only, that certainly changes the game wouldn't you agree? If we see ourselves as part of all life and all living things and accept that "we are not special" other than our cognitive ability, that again changes what we look for and how we plan to answer the question. So far that answer has been religion and I see that, imo, as a self assigned meaning.
I did read that, but I do not agree. There is a major philosophical difference between science and theology.
Science observes and sets out to answer questions about our world and environment. Through experiment, testing, and peer review we can reach an agreed upon approximation of truth. For now.
Religion on the other hand, starts off with an answer and looks for questions and evidence that supports that answer. This is about as far from science as you can get. Think of it as two extremes of reality.
In the last 400 years, 85% to 90% of all human achievements have occurred. During the age of enlightenment where science and critical thinking have been the forefront of rational thought compared to the thousands of years religion has had, and failed miserably.
Agreed! But also those bad ideas are pointed out due to criticism and changed by new evidence to the contrary. Religion cannot do that.
What scientific power are you referring to? You lost me here.
What "moral discipline" are you referring to? I assure you, there is nothing moral about the bible.
The ten commandments are another incarnation of the the tenents from the egyptian book of the dead that predates moses by some thousand years.
The other 603 commandments or mitzvas are nothing no sane modern community would ever find moral.
Maybe if you ripped leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Judges out of the bible, you may be a little closer.
That said, how could morality come from a book? What's more moral? Being told what the right thing to do is, or just knowing what the right thing to do is?
I am familiar with the doctrine of the faith. That has nothing to do with individuals. It's a fact that the youth are indoctrinated in their faith.
Perhaps a definition is in order. Sounds like you see indoctrination as some kind of insult.
indoctrinate (ɪnˈdɒktrɪˌneɪt)
— vb
1.
to teach (a person or group of people) systematically to accept doctrines, esp uncritically
2.
rare to impart learning to; instruct
Why aren't you a muslim? or a taoist? Jaine? Sikh? Hindu? (Worlds oldest active religion?) It's because you simply grew up in a part of the world that has christianity, and from that, someone taught you that it was the truth. ( really bit my tongue here to avoid words like brain washed ) although the methodologies are almost identical.
I remember giving the "you don't know me, you're not me" speech to someone else when I was a younger man. I was wrong. They did know me, they did understand.
I disagree. I don't get to turn the channel. In 1956 they put in god we trust on our money, in 1957, one nation, under god.
There is religion trying to force it's way into every aspect of my life. Every day. This news of a pope is just one of a multitude of reminders.
Secular laws are being attacked, science is being attacked, reason is under siege and it's due to religion. Without it, what superior moral cause could someone exert?
If religion kept to itself, that would be one thing. But it does not.
Every hear anyone bitch about the Amish? Know why? They practice their faith, they don't try to make you as well.
Respectfully Submitted,
if you love someone or are at least concerned for thier well being would you let them walk off a cliff blindfolded? no. you would try to warn them. you becoming a christian dosent affect my salvation whatsoever, but i knowing that the cliff is there am warning you, no i cant make you turn around , nor should i , none the less God will hold me accountable for not trying. John the baptist said, "if i do not warn you, you will die in sin, and God will ask me to account for your life"
Are they trying to kill the rest of us? That's a lot of smoke. Maybe they are burning the losers one by one?
well if your gon'a pick a pope...you got'a smoke alot of dope...weed'n out the weak...so to speak...
Phooey.
OR
If you are the only person that believes this nonsense you lose credibility. You see on these boards constantly how "billions" of christians believe... x,y,z.
If it were "dozens" of christians.... you get the point.
Perhaps your concern is more self serving than you let on.
Some of us are interested in the truth, not perpetuating superstitions created by people that had less understanding of the workings of their world than the average 4th grader.
Hello folks, and the new Pedophile in Chief is, Survey Says:
Pope Moe Lester the XVII.
Some things never change. Here's the new boss same as the old boss!
This has to be the most hypocritical and vile religion of all religions. Amazing how brainwashed human beings can become. Sad actually. Sad sheep, baa baa, in search of the next disgusting man to revere...
you know what is sad.....you are! Some people don't see that there is still good in this church and in this world and you are part of the bigger problem....ignorance!
why do you say this.....give some reasons other than some bad priests. Yes, there are bad priests, just as there are bad teachers, ministers, athletic coaches, scout leaders, professors, and oh, yes, let us not forget our so clean and pure congressmen. A few bad people don't make a whole world bad so educate youself. Did you know that in the grand scheme more non-catholic ministers have been found molesting children....Yes, that is correct so do you down all religion and all the other organizations I have mentiioned? hmmmm.....
i totally agree. i was raised catholic. MONEY is the only thing they understand. so glad when i grew up i got out before i got totally brainwashed by the church. Priests live the good life while the nuns live like little homeless women. church is worth way too much money. money is their god and that is what they praise. will be glad when this is over so that the news can cover real news and not this crap
This entire process is nothing but a bunch of hocus-pocus, superstitions and meaningless 6th century ritual.
charlie; It is much older than the sixth century, it is older than the Universe. Unless you can explain existence you cannot deny divinity. I think a number of the most intelligent people ever to live agree on this.
I can't wait to find out who they choose as the next gilded turd.
Saneg,
It is not the idea of bad priests that upset people so much. It is the handling and total protection of child molesting men of God that turns people's stomachs.
What good is that??
The good by teaching africans that condoms are bad and helping keep the aids pandemic going?
The good of thwarting medical research?
The good of teaching devout cartholics like adolph hitler that jews are evil?
What good are you referring to that specifically can only come from the catholic church?
I think the child raping, mafia money laundering, bigotry, keeping it's faithful ignorant, shunning science, list goes on... far FAR outweighs any good it does.
Say that to the thousands of young boys who have been/are being molested.
What foolishness.The entire church is rife with paganism .Do those people,waiting for silly puffs of smoke, realize they are lucky to be born in this century? Many of them would have been tortured in the church.s "Divine Inquisition period". WHO decided the pope is infallable? Was it the altar boys who were abused in the rectu...er...rectory? Ah whatever.Good luck and good riddance. Puffs of smoke. Ugh.
Oh, I feel for this generation coming up....So sad and so ignorant. Momma's haven't been teaching their children and this is what is the result-people who down anything and everything with no understanding of any of it.....I will pray for you, and I have been taught to forgive and let God judge. You should do the same.
Saneg, you are possibly THE MOST vexing commenter I have come across on the internet. You give arguments to people who merely express their opinions. You may be doing the same, however, you statement, "Momma's haven't been teaching their children", makes you seem somewhat pompous. There is nothing wrong with this generation. And if you believe that God should judge, let Him be the leader of the Christian Church, instead of mourning for a middleman. As I am learning about Eastern Orthodox Christianity in class, I believe one should establish a direct connection to his/her god, if god really exists.
What I meant by momma's not teaching their children are the remarks like "thay all look gay" and "vile religion" I was taught not to do judge and not to make fun of people and their beliefs and therefore I stand by my comment-momma's are not teaching their children how to be understanding and open minded. I do not see why all of you have to down something just because you don't understand it. I don't care what religion people follow, if any-it is very personal and I do believe that. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say-God bless you.
What you beleive then is that no religion should ever be held accountable for anything lest you judge them for their behavior. You would have to stand firm in that the Catholic faith is immune from prosecution for the ramant molestation that they have participated in for centuries. How about the Vatican Bank as it is often called with the revelations of money laundering and mob connections, I assume you agree that they are untouchable, in fact I would wonder if you beleive that any person that claims a religious connection can be prosecuted for anything. The proof that knowledge, technology and the betterment of society will never render the manipulation of the masses with sheepherder superstition totally removed from the desires of men and there will always those that wil stand to take advantage of those sheep.
I'd like to take a moment to educate you about those "silly puffs of smoke". The color of the smoke has been used to tell the world that the Conclave is still in debate (black), and when a new Pope has been chosen (white).
It's simply TRADITION!! YOU might find it silly, but that does not mean it has no place in this world.
I personally do not eat horse meat. Does that mean NO ONE world-wide should eat it? No. What I'm saying is take from this world what you will, and leave the rest alone. This is of no consequence to you, so why chime in? You have a remote for your TV, and a back button on your keyboard.
Maybe use those rather than post odious and sill comments that do nothing to promote yur beliefs- or lack there-of.
Saneg,
Is only giving argument to the ignorance of those who rant about something they know nothing about other then what they hear or read in the media.
Don't feel for them, for they are closer to losing the shackles of bronze age superstition than ever before.
It' funny, people are proud to say they are people of faith or devout christians. To me, that just translates to "I'm easily manipulated".
What you take as "downing" is actually being critical of extraordinary claims. People are beginning not to believe in magic. That is not a bad thing.
Think about this:
Religion has had thousands and thousands of years to better mankind. It had failed miserably. History shows us that it has only caused division, war, famine, plague, corruption, holocaust et al. Pretty much brought out the worst in us with out any good that could ever be assigned having to be exclusive to only religion.
Now think about the age of reason. Where were taught to question, taught to be critical. Use science instead of mysticism to describe our universe.
In the very short 400 years or so that this has been the case, we have:
- Medical Advances: Doubled our life span, eradicated diseases, transplanted organs, limbs, and even faces.
- Discovered: flight, spaceflight, DNA, distant stars and solar systems.
- Invented: Radio, TV, Supercomputers, internet, telephones, cd-dvd, automobiles,
Pretty much 85%-90% of ALL human achievement has been in the last 400 years. Oddly enough this has occurred due to the absence of religion as a reasoning.
Couple this with the fact that the majority of these things were done in a country, the only one on the planet that specifically invokes a secular constitution and you have quite an argument against religion.
Do not feel sorry for them, feel sorry for us having been a generation short of throwing off the shackles of mythology. It's about time.
Ahh yes, next thing you will tell me is that the heliocentric model (Nicolaus Copernicus) was not created by a Catholic..or Louis Pasteur was also atheist...
That the earth moved around the sun and not vice versa was big news in 1514 but hardly what I would call an advancement of human condition.
Also odd in that if you look at his successor, Galileo and the role of the catholic church in denouncing "Copernicism" your statement becomes rather a sad irony.
Shame on all of you heathens.. and God knows who you are. He will punish you.
You may as well threaten us with loc ness and big foot while you are at it. Wy do you wish someone to be punished by some omnipotent skypixy egomaniac?
I agree with the first two comments for different reasons.
First, the pope is only the leader of the religion of Catholicism not Christians. (Catholicism is more of a pseudo-christian religion), so there is no good reason for all the hype - not a great deal of importance to the position other than the role he will play in the near future on the world scene in a negative sense.
Second, The ONLY true leader of the Christian church in Jesus Christ. Come to Him soon - don't be left out. Things are going to continue to quickly change for the worse.
Hey tocco man-what is your definition of Christian? Just curious. Alot of people spout off on here and really have no actual facts-just a place to vent a lot of frustration. Sounds like the top three are up early this morning.....Good luck and GOD bless you all.....
snaeg, that would require a long reply unfortunately, and in the space allowed within these posts I'm afraid my response here is going to be very inadequate.
I was raised going to Catholic church and all of the classes. There's far too much idolatry which is specifically forbidden in the Bible. Only God the Father is to be referred to as Holy Father. Prayers to Mary are wasted breath - not being at all part of God, the Holy Trinity, she can't hear them and I'm sure would be disgusted if she knew it were happening. Mary knew full well who was her Lord, as well as her place as a sinful created being. The pope is just as much a fallible mere human being as you and I are. I could go on and in more detail if space allowed. Your best bet is to compare the practices and beliefs of their church to what's actually written in the Bible and see for yourself.
i disagree tocco at the wedding feast of cana ppl came to mary asking about the wine and mary asked Jesus, at first he said whats that got to do with me, but when mary said do whatever he says, Jesus moved by her faith and the fact it was his mother , he changed water to wine,
Religion can at once be the best part of life and the worst part of life. Imagine what a drab history we would have without the elevation to humanity brought by religion, and at the same time, look at the evil committed under the name of religion.
Religion defines humanity. Let's strive to be elevated by the good it brings and reject the intolerance and evil that has sadly been the result of misguided faith.
we must remember that religion is not evil, it is the heart of man that is evil. all these athiests say they are "good" but without a moral guide from the divine man eventually sinks to the depths of depravity, i can truely say this world would be better off if everyone was christian vs everyone being athiest
Tocco
Psuedo Christian religion? The Catholic church is the first christian religion, how do you come up with the psuedo comment?
It is interesting that many Christians and other theists cannot seem to fathom that an atheist can act as or more ethically (in their own theist view) as a theist. Many atheists are as religious as theists, and I have lots of examples of atheists that act more ethically and responsibly to society than lots of theists act. Belief in a god is not necessary to feel a responsibility to society and the world, and to act ethically.
It is the doctrines (religion) of men that has caused more death and destruction. Yeshua AKA Jesus came to return the people back to Torah (He came for the 'Lost Sheep of the House of Israel). He started no 'church' or any other IMAGINED religion. The 'Church' was started by Emperor Constantine of Rome and then continued through Catholicism. The process to be 'grafted in' by gentile nations is shown in the Book of RUTH. She was a Moabitess who became an Israelite through the marriage to Boaz, the kinsman of NAOMI, Ruth's mother-in-law.
Yeshua said he did not come for the RIGHTEOUS. Who were they? The ones already following TORAH. Yeshua had a problem with the Rabbis who were substituting their (TALMUDIC LAW) for the Torah. Yeshua was speaking to the multitude and to his disciples saying that the Pharisees sit in the SEAT of Moses and they should do what he (MOSES) said. The Torah was never to be added to or taken away from. The Pharisees were doing just that by adding their ORAL LAW.
When Jerusalem by the Romans and Catholicism is ROMAN, they persecuted those who had anything to do with the TORAH, as well as change the Calendar, create new laws and generally PERVERT what the Creator had laid down as an instruction for righteousness. When the 'Christians' were BIRTHED from Catholicism, they brought with them some of the same old doctrines and hatred for the TORAH/JEWS, etc. They just could not cut that umbilical cord to the MOTHER CHURCH.
The Catholics had their CATECHISM and the Christians had their doctrinal beliefs. Their are 30,000 + denominations of Christians and it is easy to see how anyone could get LOST. Israelites became absorbed into the Catholic/Christian religions and many are now seeing the LIGHT of YESHUA who is the embodiment of the TORAH or the WORD MADE FLESH.
So, it is very simple, you follow TORAH you are following YESHUA. And, he was the SUFFERING SERVANT of Isaiah who will return as KING. He said, IF YOU LOVE ME (I believe that should have been IF YOU LOVE YEHOVAH, THE FATHER) you will follow HIS Commandments. (not your doctrines)
birdie.. "upon you peter i will build my "church" and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" pretty much means church, Jesus pretty much preached his message to the "gentiles" because israel rejected him
scott... you cant "fathom it?" i pretty much laid it out, the heart of man is evil by nature, we instictively look out for number one
If you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and as the means to salvation, Heaven or whatever term you want for the afterlife, by definition you are a Christian.
Does that mean everyone has to be the same? No.
Yes, I cannot fathom that anyone can't believe that a person can act in the best interest of society and the world, without believing in a god. It simply isn't necessary. It's just believing that people and the world we live in deserve to be treated with respect.
Pseudo Christian??All the branches of Christians are coming from the same tree,the Catholic,What you say make not sense at all.But,thinking that for you the all universe is 6000 years old because that book say so,nothing that comes out from a Christan's mouth surprise me any more.So sad for your children,maybe they have a great brains and they can't use it.
To Poster apostle of truth
Your so-called morals are not genuine. Why? Because you need and rely on a "divine being" to tell you right from wrong.
A rational, logical person is capable of knowing right from wrong without the aid of a "divine being"
Scott-369576
It is very sad that many if not all theists have this false assumption that without God a person will act "immoral"
" cardinals have been holding a series of General Congregations in recent days to discuss the qualities they would like to see in their new leader."
How about some1 who will put a stop 2 the baby-rapin' sickos.....
Jussayin'.
Tocco,
Pseudo Christian?? How do you figure when pretty much a good many major Christian denominations were break offs of the Catholic church through schisms, folks being upset and developing their own religions, etc. If anything, I would call these religions pseudo being that Catholicism begins with Peter, the first apostle and onward. Heck, a lot of the other denominations don't even believe in the true presence of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist which is explicitly established in the bible "whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood." Anyway, it is good to know that Jesus made the promise to Peter, our first pope, "on this rock I will build my church (note Christ does not say "churches") and the gates of the netherworld will not prevail against it."
Christian is a name given to anyone who follows Jesus Christ period. Denominations come and go but Jesus Christ is eternal. Now the fact is that Jesus wants to change your life from a person infected with the death sentence of selfishness to one of other centered living. Only Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit can bring this change to a person's life in harmony with the person's own free will. "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord".
When you look at all the pictures of Roman opulence displayed here just ask yourself is it the result of other centered living or selfishness? The answer is plain to see. Jesus' life demonstrated much different principals than the Church of Rome. If you don't see a problem maybe you have not confronted the truth about humanity and its need for a Creator and Saviour.
Jesus also said "I have other sheep not of this flock" in reference to the Jews of his day. The same can be said of many denominations today. The question is God bringing the change of heart to you today? If not perhaps you may be a member of a denomination and not a member of his "church". Membership in any human organization is not assurance of salvation...it was not for the chosen people the Jews...it is not for any other denomination including the Church of Rome. God wants friends and followers not "humane" organizations. There is a difference.
I bet they vote for St. Nicholas.
religion has gotten so complicated, it's ridiculous.
They need to tear down the whole perverted institution of the Catholic Church, that's what they really need to do!
My money is on Cardinal Todd Lerfondler as becoming the next Pope. He meets all the criteria to run the Church. He smells like moth balls, loves women's clothing, hates the Jews, is a greedy old coot and enjoys teaching children about Jebus's special kind of love.
Tocco, many people claim they were raised as Catholics but truly they were not taught what it means to be a Catholic. I have seen many people baptized, out of symbolism or tradition. Many parents baptize their children and do not practice the RC faith in their home or educate their children in the Catechism. Does not sound like you were taught the Catechism. All Christian religions can trace their roots back to the Roman Catholic Faith. The Roman Catholic Religion can then be traced to Jesus although at the time, it was in it's infancy and did not have a name other than the Latin one given to them by the Romans meaning "a follower of Christ" Christian. Peter was one of the beloved 12 apostles hand selected by Jesus. Before Jesus died, He gave "Saul" a new name "Peter" translated means "rock" and upon this rock I will be build my church." It is through this long line of succession starting with Peter that we can trace the lineage of the Papacy.
So, this was the beginning of the Roman Catholic (catholic means universal). It wasn't until the Protesting against the Papacy by Martin Luther and others that we see the church divided into "Protestant" religions. Luther and others were outraged against the church financing building of St. Peter's Church by the selling of indulgences. Indulgences were "in essence" a get of of Hell free ticket. So, the Roman Catholic Faith was corrupt, but what we find as time went on is that those religions that broke away from the RC faith, they too, in time corrupted.
What this demonstrates is the "weakness" of man for power and greed. Christianity is not false it is false intentions that undermine the "spirit" of the law, a simple commandment taught by Jesus, "Love God and your neighbor as yourself."
As for others on this post who say the Catholic Church is the one, true faith I have this report from the new testament readings: While Jesus was teaching, one of his disciples came to him to say that there were people in other towns preaching "the gospel" of Jesus without "authority". Jesus said to him, let them preach for a man cannot be against something if he is for it!" I believe this to mean that we are all diciples of Jesus as long as we accept him as the "Messiah" and do our best to Love God and others as ourselves. Simple teaching, easy concept, very, very difficult for mortal men to follow, but important to forgive those who fail and move forward in faith. Jesus did not come for perfect men and women, he came, was crucified and died for sinners. I guess that includes everyone, including the Pope.
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I don't understand why the choice of a new Pope to lead the worldwide Catholic Church should be given to the Cardinals. Why is this baseball team anymore qualified to choose a new Pope than the Mets or the Dodgers? (satire).
All religion is good. Evil happens when "Ego" enters. The Egotistical hearts of followers of every religion say: My religion is the only way to heaven. Because we follow the one true religion (ego says: my way is better than yours) you are evil and will contaminate (our/my) perfect concept on how to be "holy" in order to be one with God.
This way of thinking is what starts wars not only religious ones but those of cultural bias. Lack of understanding of other's beliefs and an unwillingness to search for the "kernal" of truth centered in most religions of the world, that of goodness and compassion to our fellow man is what we should be focused on to make peace in the world. Joseph Campbell was a great philospher who studied all religions around the world. If you read one of his books "The Power of Myth" you will discover that most basic truths are found in all religions. Also, how and why we worship and why mankind seeks a higher essential meaning for living is explained within it's text. It is an older book, but one worth reading for believers and non-believers.
cant you all see what is happening here??? obama is the anti christ, now the bible says the pope will step down and a new pope will be of roman decent!! so if a roman pope is appointed then the prophecies are true, read malachi.. also obama is gonna ride into jerusalem on a donkey???? 5 days before the pass over?? hmmm is he trying to imitate somebody?? now that is just wrong!!!! and what all this talk about obama care??? it will be a cold day in hell before i let these people put a chip in my body!!!!
True, but ethics have a foundation. They are learned and or passed down. What you may seem as morally good , someone else may see as immorally bad. To even recognize what Good and Bad morality is, there has to be a point of reference, and absolute authority of Goodness. So yes in essence an Atheist can indeed have a great moral life, love, cherish, give freely, help others out, never get hostile ect ect , but these actions , morals are borrowed from a Good and Just God. WHen someone says they dont need God to be moral you still need your point of reference for morality.
It is so disgusting to see these hypocrits(as we all are) but they say they represent Jesus Christ to the people on the earth who practice their religion in their churches.
I know so many stories from our family that were in religious orders, ( that we would never believe) until the internet made all things open to scrutiny..That we now believe without hesitation.
Remember the Scripture..Mathew 10:26-27 " Have no fear of them; for nothing is covered , that will not be revealed and nothing secre tthat will not become known to you. What is said in the dark, tell in the light; and what you hear whispered, proclaim from the housetops.
This conclave , with it's secret oath on the bible by each of these men, who act so Holy ....is so unlike anything that Jesus the Christ would approve of.
HE will do something , as all people know now, what a diabolical place this instution is...GOD will not be mocked. And in my Humble O, that is what these people are doing.
Juss lock them all up and throw away the key. Religion is nothing but a sham robbing their sheeple.
So things are changing for the worse? Really? Actually this is one of the most peaceful times in human history. Violence is nowhere near as endemic as it was 100, 200, 300 years ago.
What has changed is the willingness of so many to adopt pessimism as a belief system in conjuction with their religious and political beliefs. We know so much more scientifically than was known in past generations. We know why volcanos erupt, we know why earthquakes occur, these are geological things not godly. And we can forecast storms and prepare for them. A storm like Hurricane Sandy would have likely killed millions without warning. Science gave us that warning, man using his brain. There is nothing in the Bible, zero, to indicate foreknowledge of what was to come scientifically, you can bend and twist all the words you like, or create a code, but it just isn't there.
In short it is a great time to be a human on this planet. Unfortunately we have those who refuse to evolve and who continue to cling to ancient dogma as some sort of truth. And they are the downers in our society. Those who consider this earthly life as unimportant and put stock in the unknown. They aren't giving this one known ride proper respect.
After studying in-depth the history of the Catholic Church, I find it all horribly invalid. There are no bones under the Basilica and the popes have their own wicked history including an early Pope (Steven VII) who put the skeleton of the previous pope (Formosus) on trial for political purposes. Does that indicate a godly man? And certainly God could have done better than Benedict? That becomes clearer by the day.
So how many women in the conclave? What? None?
"obama is the anti christ"
"obama is gonna ride into jerusalem on a donkey?"
"and what all this talk about obama care?"
(snicker) Get help.
What a vote of confidence in the next head clown. The cardinals swear an oath of secrecy to not release the name of the next head clown. And because these wannabes are so honourable they jam the phone system so there isn't a secret leak of a secret vote of a secret procedure that has been broadcast worldwide since the last head clown said "I quit".
You can't have women in the Male Academy of Buggery and Pedophilia. They aren't that liberal yet.
Why are they interupting television programming to tell us that their first vote is done and there is black smoke. Not everyone is Catholic and not everyone cares. This could have waited for the next news program. The whole thing seems like a sham in the light of what has happened in the Catholic church lately. All they really care about is power and money. One local priest in our area was excommunicated because he tried to keep his flock together after the bishop closed his church due to finances.
How is this day in and day out headline news? Most of us could care less who the next Pope, Queen of England or King of Saudi-Arabia is, all a bunch of monarchs who live off the toils of the masses and have done nothing to stop wars, eradicate disease, suffering or hunger.
It is truly sad that people still treat those who inherit wealth and power as celebrities. Truly sad a modern society still clings to a mid-evil times culture that honors elitism as if it were divine.
oh stop with the stereotypical bogus crap. A handful of people have done wrong and you label the whole group "bad". That must mean all athiest are idiots.
I find anyone who can call the Catholic Church a pseudo-Christian church to be amongst the stupidest people on Earth. EVERY other Christian denomination in the WORLD can only trace their roots back to the Catholic Church. The FIRST Christian Church in history. Peter built the CATHOLIC Church on that rock.
BTW - I'm not Catholic. I just can't stand stupid people and their stupid comments.
Take the population of the world and divide it into the number of Catholics. Hmmm....it is quite a large % isn't it? If you aren't interested in the result, change channels.
someone should do us all a favor and plug up that chimney.
nogodnomaster,
I am a Deist/Theist who does not look to God for morality or guidance, although God placed within a copy of the one and only accurate and unabridged bible on earth, a conscience. As a free soul I was blessed with the liberty to make choices, good, bad or indifferent. I do not believe God created a soul to see whether they become righteous or evil, but to permit a soul to self-witness and experience in order to acquire an education in preparation for things yet to come.
When each were blessed with the breath of life, each were pure of mind and soul, thee had no hatred or anger nor love or compassion, because thee had not yet witnessed or experienced for thy self. and that was the purpose for it all.
How could one possibly comprehend the discomforts of pain and hunger without witnessing or experiencing such things? How could one appreciate the contentment of love and compassion without witnessing or experiencing hatred or greed ?...Words are but words when void of a comprehensible definition.
It was God who established the curriculum, created Earth as a classroom, and life upon as the teacher.
How long before some eco-nut starts whining for the Vatican to buy carbon credits to offset that smoke? :/
what color is the smoke if they are smoking blunts?
Well ellis where do you get your morality from if not God ? You make it up on your own ? If I were to make up my own morality I would say that raping and pillaging is fun because it satisfies my wild animalist nature.. Ill will pray to god and get divine word to re affirm that its ok to rape and pillage plunder people .
Kinda sounds like New age Christianity.
No it is not a "sea of troubles." The Media trying to make the sex abuse scandals "never ending" doesn't make it so. When the Media can clean up it's act so they are actually more moral than the Church, then maybe we will finally be going in the right direction. Oh wait, telling the truth doesn't make good ratings?!? Perish the thought!
And therein lies a big portion of the problem: Christians are the only ones trying to force their religion on others. Mormons, a branch of Christianity, send their young people on "missions" to foreign countries to try to convert people. There are Christian missions and missionaries everywhere. When was the last time a Buddhist came to your door on a bicycle, wearing a white shirt and tie, and wanted to convert you? A Hindu? A Jew? Even -- gasp! -- a Muslim? Answer: never. They don't try to ram their religion down your throats like Christians do.
My biggest problem with religion is that all religions think they're right, and everyone else are either heathens or pagans. The Christian who lives next door to me is no more convinced of his righteousness than the Muslim across the street or the Hindu down the block...which means religious conflict will never end. That is, unless those guys in the white shirts can convert everyone to what they see as the only "true" religion, Christianity.
Good luck with that.
Tocco-2790973
I agree with the first two comments for different reasons.
First, the pope is only the leader of the religion of Catholicism not Christians. (Catholicism is more of a pseudo-christian religion), so there is no good reason for all the hype - not a great deal of importance to the position other than the role he will play in the near future on the world scene in a negative sense.
Second, The ONLY true leader of the Christian church in Jesus Christ. Come to Him soon - don't be left out. Things are going to continue to quickly change for the worse.
===============================================
HUH??? Oh, I see. Your bible magically appeared to you? It was the Catholic Church who kept the Bible together for all those years yet you give them no credit.
Martin Luther? He was the guy who cut and paste his own version of what you probably believe is the real Bible. I guess your pope is then Martin the First and Last!
If it wasn't for the Catholic Church, the only Jesus you would know is the guy who cuts your grass really cheap!
Exactly, nothing but a perverted institution of male child rapists trying to protect themselves...
If Jesus could read this thread, I should think he would weep.
Either that, or say "don't make me come down there."
Marmaduke,
My morality has been shaped by all that I have witnessed and experienced over the years of exposure. It was not built in at birth before I had the chance to witness and experience the contrasting feelings we each have within, the contrasting feelings of hatred, greed, love, compassion, sorrow or remorse. Ones morality is the result of ones acquired knowledge and wisdom, the extent of a comprehension of definitions between the contrasting feelings.....It is all about live and learn, not sin and forgiveness
Why would an omnipotent being be curious? Wouldn't that be a flaw to omnipotence.
I find it incredible that all these christianists have no idea how ridiculous they sound (and make their religions sound). All claim to be christian, but yet all bicker and fight over what is christian and what is not; who is christian and who is not, blah-blah-blah, yadda-yadda-yadda. If it wasn't all so sad (making the world a sad place), it would be completely laughable.
William,
The Bible is nothing more than a series of short stories by several different authors about the same subject which does not explain proclamations in any detail, other than to say, "and it came to pass"
losghost,
Who said anything about being curious ?
Hello folks, let’s not forget why we are being inundated with wall to wall articles on the pedophile conclave. The powers that were are trying to maintain their old world order and they are acting as if it is business as usual. The problem they are having is that their institutions are being exposed for their corruption and crimes against humanity. The collective conscious of our planet is waking up and deception and lies will no longer be tolerated. Occupy the Planet is in full force so that we can save our planet and our ethical and moral values.
“You can bend it and twist it... You can misuse and abuse it... But even God cannot change the Truth.”
Michael Levy quotes
And may I add, he/she wouldn’t want to.
In a mysterious omen from Mother Nature on February 11, right after the Pope announced his resignation, lightning hit St. Peter's Basilica in Italy's Vatican City. While many will call it coincidence to me It clearly illustrates the importance of this historical event. The question remains why? A Pope hasn’t resigned since the 14th century. This makes the Pope the Nixon of the Vatican and we know that Tricky Dick didn’t resign under moral circumstances.
This is definitely a wakeup call to humanity and for those that are paying attention, a watershed moment in their spiritual development.
We are all being bombarded with clear evidence that our world view is being changed at an accelerating rate due to the webs veil of deceit being exposed in many of our systems. Our corrupt political, financial, spiritual and military proclivities are begging for reformation. It is important that we each look within and determine what is our own moral and ethical stance as the time of reckoning is at hand. I don’t mean this in the religious sense but from a spiritual perspective. Whether you believe in Karma, evolution, ascension or one of the many religions on the planet today you are witnessing the time that our universe is signaling to all of us that changes are afoot and begging the question as to which side of history do we want to belong to. It’s time to wake up! “Welcome to the EVOLUTION.”
The question remains why are we at this point in witnessing the death throes of this corrupt institution?
“La Republica’s respected Vatican expert Ignazio Ingrao has claimed that Benedict XVI resigned rather than face the backwash from a scandal related to money-laundering (via the Vatican’s bank IOR) and a gay sex ring among the Cardinals.
If you remember, the Pope’s butler Paolo Gabrielle started Benedict’s fall when he released documents to the Italian authorities last fall opening the Pandora’s box of Vatican corruption and collusion. Soon after, Vatican whistle blowers reported that the Pope requested an investigation and report on the corruption form Cardinals Salvatore De Giorgi, Julian Herranz, and Josef Tomko. On December 17th the Pope received the report and it validated that there is a “nefarious faction within the church where there seems to be a gay and/or possibly paedophile element in the Vatican – a group behind the ferocious attempts to smear complainants against pedophile priests and evidence of what La Republica calls ‘wordly sexual activities’ by them”.
The Vatican is trying to spin the business as usual uncontrollable corruption to place the blame on a “rogue faction” within the church. They are saying “deviants within the Cardinal’s College have been recorded at their work, and forced to do dirty money-laundering work by the men behind it”. In other words the church was being black mailed to perform all these clandestine and criminal activities. So as a result of these “New Revelations” the Pope resigned to save the good name of the church. (Yeah right!)
To understand the political views of this Pope one cannot ignore his upbringing. His grand uncle, Georg Ratzinger, was a member of the German Parliament in the late 19th century and belonged to a political party that – behind the deceptive name of “Zentrum” – promoted nationalistic, right-wing goals. A case in point: With the vote of the Pope’s grand uncle and his party, the German Parliament passed a law literally outlawing the German Social Democratic Party and banning it from political life. Thus, his portrayal, e.g. on Wikipedia, as an ‘early Benedict’ on a mission to help the poor is little more than a whitewash.
During Pope Benedict’s youth, this political “swamp” continued. His father, Joseph Ratzinger Sr., was a member of the Nazi-Ordnungspolizei (the Nazi “Order-Police”). The “Orpo” was formally under the administration of the Nazi Interior Ministry but in reality was controlled by the SS. ‘Father’ Ratzinger remained part of the “Orpo” even during the time when these ‘nationalistic and racist robots’ became part of the machinery for imposing the Nuremberg racial laws on the Jewish people. The Wikipedia portrayal of Ratzinger Sr. as an “anti-Hitler” freedom fighter therefore remains an unsubstantiated fairy tale disseminated in order to cover the Pope’s political history.
With this background it was no surprise that Pope Ratzinger became an official member of the Hitler Youth, was trained as a Nazi anti-aircraft soldier and later fought in WWII as a young Nazi infantry soldier. After his election as Pope, a “whitewash” campaign was subsequently launched that tried to re-paint his Nazi past and portray him as yet another anti-Nazi freedom fighter. Here too, Wikipedia served as the allegedly independent platform for this “clean-up operation”.
With this political background, with his expertise in re-interpreting the past, and with post-war Germany becoming the single largest financier of the Vatican, it was inevitable that Ratzinger rose to the position of a key ‘puppeteer’ within the Catholic Church. For a quarter of a century he was pulling the strings behind the scene as head of the ‘Sacred Congregation’ – the successor of the infamous ‘Catholic Inquisition’.
So what about his surprise resignation?
Only days after the announcement that he would be stepping down, Ratzinger made the final key appointment of his crisis-ridden papacy. It was the approval of a German lawyer, Ernst Von Freyberg, to head the Vatican’s embattled bank. Freyberg was a first choice – he had managed the finances of the Malteser Society, a semi-clandestine fraternity with dark Medieval roots.
Was this appointment a coincidence – or was the embattled Vatican bank a cause for Ratzinger’s surprise resignation as Pope? A closer look at the Vatican Bank’s embattled history may provide the answer.
Thirty years ago, David Yallop’s well-researched book, “In God’s Name”, detailed the activities of a Mafia-linked Masonic lodge inside the Vatican and the mysterious death on 17 June 1982 of Roberto Calvi, also known as “God’s Banker”. Calvi, chairman of Banco Ambrosiano with close ties with the Vatican, was found hanging from London’s Blackfriars Bridge with $15,000 and a number of bricks in his pockets. Calvi’s death was initially ruled a suicide but the case was reopened by Italian prosecutors several times amid strong suspicions, which persist to this day, that Calvi had been murdered.
Notably, therefore, on November 25, 1981, barely seven months prior to Calvi’s impious death under a London bridge, Ratzinger had been appointed head of the highly influential ‘Congregation’ of the Vatican, formally titled the ‘Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’. In taking on this elite role, he essentially became the second most powerful man in the Vatican – and known as the ‘papal enforcer’. An executive body of the Vatican, the ‘Congregation’ had, over the years, become a hybrid group with a part- cabinet/part-religious policing role within the Vatican power structure. From this position, Ratzinger must have had intimate knowledge about the dealings of the Vatican Bank with Banco Ambrosiano and Robert Calvi.
Now, three decades later, startling new evidence has emerged pointing to a connection between Calvi and the Columbian Cocaine Cartel. The exposure of this link was published in the “International Business Times” in November 2012, a mere three months before Razinger’s surprise resignation announcement and his subsequent appointment of von Freyberg to head the Vatican Bank.
With global awareness growing regarding both this and other underreported controversies linked to the Vatican and its bank, could this be why Ratzinger is apparently to be “hidden from the world” in his retirement years? As always, only time will tell.”
Intuition should be screaming at this point that our world is undergoing a historical reset. I believe for the betterment of our planet.
DG_W
How is it forced on you exactly ?
Mormomism is not Christianity , it is a cult period, it is its own religion.
There can only be one true religion, to find out which is the one that holds true, you test its to its validity.
The lock-down & the secrecy seem so artificial. So, historically, the lock-up was imposed by outside political powers that wanted a decision faster than the rate at which the Holy Spirit was working amongst the assembled Cardinals. Why in the world would that "college of Cardinals" expect to be able to make a wise & inspired decision on a matter of such importance within a few days or even a few weeks?-- that seems nonsense to me. Or is it that by acting rashly they are trying to give a false public impression that the Holy Spirit is really intimately involved & hovering over the one to be chosen? If so, why would the Holy Spirit need more than a minute to make the selection?; if the Holy Spirit is working through faithful human hearts & minds, why think that it should happen in days or even weeks?
What ever could be the point of the communications blackout & secrecy??:
(a) they're trying to hype up the decision, just like on "Who Wants to Be a Millionare?";
(b) they don't trust their own Cardinals to behave?;
(c) they're worried that some discussion of values (& perhaps 'dirty laundry' issues) would be open to public ears, afraid of honesty?
(d) they don't want the advantage of receiving any new information inputs from those outside of the "college of Cardinals", as if the Holy Spirit would never see fit to bless someone outside of their private college with wisdom & grace?
Wow...that smoke must be really black if you can see it at night.
I love the expression on the nun's as if some rock star was about to appear. I guess I'm jaded and not impressed by all this hoopla. I don't think any other religion has this kind of suspensfull extravaganza when electing a new leader.
Ellis: I appreciate your defense of deism, but isn't the problem with it that it simply collapses into the physical universe?
At least as deism was described by Thomas Paine in The Age of Reason, it pretty clearly does.
Paine believed that the only knowable evidence of the creator is that the universe exists, and the only knowable evidence of the creator's desires or intentions for creation (including us) is what we can observe about the universe.
But this says no more (and no less) than that the only things that are knowable are things that are objectively observable. The notion of a creator (as loaded as that notion inevitably is) is an extraneous, unobservable concept. By Paine's own logic it should be removed from the assertion, and by the same token its removal from the assertion doesn't diminish its meaning by one iota.
Marmaduke - I agree, someone could say that fending for yourself at the expense of all others is moral. And I would disagree. My morals are based on the bible from when I was taken to church while growing up. I reject much of the religions I know about, but not treating people with respect.
And ANY religion can be considered a cult. It depends on your defintion of cult, as there are many out there. Cult is not necessarily derogatory, either.
Just do away with any kind of religion
If anything should be done away with, it's the cult of greed that is destroying society.
Perhaps a new dawn will happen when people learn to cooperate with one another and look for ways of advancing society as a whole rather than playing into the hands of most wealthiest and powerful sociopathic few who are treating people as an ignorant herd for their own selfish ends.
it win't happen, meyou1
meyou1 so take away my beliefs to serve yours, ya that is what should be done.
Agree 100%.Think with your brain,and teach your children your ideas and not what a book says.
Christianity is followed by 33% of the world population. More than 1/2 of that 33% (or 1/6th of the worlds population) is Catholic. Anything that effects more than 1/6th of the worlds population is going to have an effect on the world. There are a lot of verbal antagonist in the world, and a lot of verbal Christians, but I bet there are a lot more quiet Christians ready to rise and protect their faith than quiet antagonist willing in to rise and protect ?? nothing?
Christianity is not a religion per-say but a relationship with the Lord Jesus...any particular group that worships anyone other than Him is being falsely taught! I don't think it is necessary to have a supreme leader for any denomination. Jesus,is our Supreme leader!!!
1.2 billion is not 33% of the worlds population. TJ
Irony in this forum is people will say anything negative just to get some praise and thumbs up. One word to describe this forum; pathetic. SMH
I know some Catholic people there not bad people.
Agreed. Religion is nothing but superstition and power. The Catholic church wants power over the people and news outlets like MSNBC is dumb enough to fall for it. They have their power because everyone is watching the Vatican right now.
Do away with child rapists and those that protect them. Of course, this includes the Catholic Church.
Haggis - there are child abusers in public schools... if you are consistent, should we close them too ?? The amount of abusers and those that protected them are very, very, small.
baliman,
the difference is; when abusers are found in public schools they are outed.
when abusers were found in the catholic schools and churches they were moved around and protected.
BIG, BIG DIFFERENCE!
Have fun convincing the GOP of that!
See paragraph 2, post 4.45 above.
All religion is a contrivance invented by man and men. God is a reality, but nothing like the Sistine Chapel rendition.
If you think you are an athiest, please explain your existance. Help me out, becauseI can't.
This smoke thing is comical, along with these guys in red dresses parading around.
I just wish they'd stop polluting the air with all of that black smoke. They should know that burning tires in their fireplace is not good for anyone.
Man, you people with negative comments have no place here in this forum because all who are atheists you guys don't belong here. Seriously, if you're going to behave naive little children then get off this forum and go back to tolerate school where you can learn some manners.
JPC45, without differing opinions there would not be any worthwhile discussion. Your condescending manner does not elevate you above those you denigrate. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
"If you think you are an athiest, please explain your existance. Help me out, becauseI can't." - On the edge
If you believe in god explain it's existance. The "god has always existed" contention is not an intelligent, logical answer. Though, when it comes to god, logic nor exercise of one's intelligence is a requirement. Only "faith." Faith: Implicit belief without proof.
Your condescending "if you think you are an atheist" is more insulting than you can probably comprehend.
So, YOU "think" you're a christian. Are you sure? Perhaps you're mistaken and you're really an atheist.
Give me a break, these so call "opinion" is nothing more then an ill-moral expression of hate, tactless, and most false knowledge of the catholic history. Pedophiles are found in politic, the ghetto, protestants church, secular nation and third world country more then the catholic church. Yes, I do believe these priests who did it should be trail for their action but the fault really lies within the victim for NOT listening to their teacher when they say "Don't go near that person if he's going to abuse you sexually" but do they listen? No. Plus the real sex scandal are the ones who wanted to be abuse for money.
When people express opinion, they express it with an open minded facts and with good manners but in today secular society, all I see is hate, hate, hate, and not a single "Logic and reason" statement.
Well, like the saying goes, "You don't find too many atheists in foxholes". The truth of the matter is, God does exist, you have to be pretty blind not to see Him in all of creation. It takes more faith to believe that all of this just "happens" without anyone behind the order of it all than it does to believe that someone did create it all with order.
Ask most former alcoholics and drug addicts about how they came to change their ways. It wasn't on their own, it was "someone" helping them beyond themelves. There are thousands of unexplainable things by science that they even claim to be "miracles". Those alone would convince most reasonable atheists to believe in God.
Bob, I couldn't agree with you more. There are more pedophiles out there then inside the church but with people like these are so gullible that it has scientifically proven they are very close minded
Bob, I was an atheist, and I spent a fair amount of time in foxholes, being shot at. I knew plenty of men who died in foxholes who prayed.
That you assert it takes more faith to not believe in talking snakes and other bronze age superstition is total horse @!$%#.
The rest of your strawman is just awful. Whoever said "it just happens"? Science has quite the opposite explanation, just attend a 7th grade science class if you don't believe me.
Does science need to explain everything in the universe, right now, or else anything else we feel like claiming is otherwise true? Do you see the folly in your statement?
The above are 10 steps to brainwashing. People getting over substance abuse and at a low point in their lives are especially vulnerable.
You misunderstand what an atheist is. It's not someone "angry at god" or "presupposing the non-existence of god".
It's a conclusion one reaches after a lot of interest and study in the area. This claim of mine is supported by a pew study on religious knowledge (asked for by the church mind you) and it found that the most knowledgeable group was atheists, followed by jews, mormons, and muslims. Christians made up the latter half.
A *reasonable* atheist would look for testable, demonstrable evidence of a miracle claim. Which to date, there hasn't ever been a shred.
The problem with doing away with religion is that it goes underground. I think this has been proven every time it's been tried.
And a reasonable scientist would look for testable verifiable empirical observational science, but yet most of it is faith based and speculation , and assumptions.
For instance? Don't stop there. Give us an example or two of your assertion.
Well put, losghost.
The problem with your suggestion for the reasonable atheist is that the theists have the ultimate excuse.
They have defined god to be unprovable and inexplicable. Any event that can't presently be explained by science is a candidate miracle.
Until science advances to explain it. And then the goalposts move (or, to paraphrase Asimov, you peel away one layer of turtles).
Even if you could perfectly examine a claimed miracle and rule out all known causes, the theists would still be in a position of saying "god did it," but by definition, "we don't (and indeed can't) know how."
It is a classic case of mistaking the absence of evidence of anything for its opposite - evidence of one particular thing.
The constant advance of science has forced religions to retreat to this definition of their deity as scientifically unprovable.
What the defenders of religion often forget is that we all disbelieve in many, many gods. Some of us just disbelieve in one more god than do others.
Hello folks, and the new Pedophile in Chief is, Survey Says:
Pope Moe Lester the XVII.
Some things never change. Here's the new boss same as the old boss!
how quick you are with your hate speech trust
Wish I was as sure as you!!!Love the posters that put things down!!!! If God really exists???? What are they teaching you in school,,,Man made global warming? Is all this beauty, complexity by chance??
I would define a Christian as following Jesus Christ. Catholic or not
No, it's not chance. A basic understanding of physics and an imagination that can contemplate how long the history of this earth actually is explains the complexity of this world.
There are still many things that physics cannot explain... That's why there are few "laws" and many theories...
its funny how millions of years ago when no one was around scientists are sure how everything came into being , but wont listen to written accounts of eyewitnesses only 2k yrs ago
every day scientists realize that theories that they swore by years ago are no longer true, which ones are next??
funny how conscience is made up of science preceded by CON
Lisa,
You may want to learn about what the difference between science "law" and science "theory" is.
Law = Observation of what something is doing.
Theory = Explanation of why it is doing what it is doing.
Gravity is a theory, and yet very unexplained. Do you know why? Newton stopped at god for his explanation.
Atomic theory? Germ Theory? These are not "hunches". They are researched, experimented, peer reviewed and ultimately accepted as the best *current* explanation.
Yes, science explanations change in light of new evidence. It's how you arrive at truth.
Also, what are you trying to suggest by saying "physics cannot explain.."?
There was a time when we *knew* the earth was flat and we would sail off the edge.
We *knew* that going faster than 100 mph would peel your face off.
We *knew* that mental illness was really demons inside someones head.
We know better now, do we not? Why is that?
if you acknowledge that science is always changing with new evidence, then how can you EVER say that something is an absolute truth? how can you say that there is no way that God exists,
oh and in case youve never heard of an exorcism, how can someone with a mental illness be CURED after a series of PRAYERS. documented cases all over the world happening every day
No one is saying that there is absolutely no way god could exist, he surely could, however, I couldn't say that the easter bunny or tooth fairy absolutely do not exist either.
There are also *documented* cases of witchcraft. Mental illness is a medical condition. There is no superstitious aspect at all to it. More is understood about the brain than ever before and no serious medical doctor or PhD in neuro function will ever factor in *demons*. That is something someone assigns for lack of understanding.
the easter bunny is pretty lame argument, no one believes the easter bunny is real except children, we tell kids about the easter bunny knowing its fairy tale, quite different that the resurrection story, youve got to do better than that
The point of the discussion is being unable to prove a negative. Obviously you cannot arrive at a truthful answer by suggesting someone do so.
That someone cannot "disprove" god is not "proof of god" because if you want to go that route, then I just proved the easter bunny exists.
Poster losghost
You have to understand that someone like poster lisa from Wayland is a firm believer in the god of gaps explanation.
Losghost.... there is the Law of gravity.... there is a theory of relativity....look it up in the books... a theory is something that is possible... but not yet disproven. Talk to some current day physicists. Quantum physics and Einstein's Theory collide head-on....
nogodnomaster...
You have to understand that you don't know crap about what I believe or disbelieve... I see both sides of the argument... Faith vs Science.... and neither one has convinced me fully. Yes, man manipulates law in order to serve his own purposes... But, that only proves that man is wicked, by nature. it does not disprove the existence of God.
On the other hand... people with all kinds of alphabet soup behind their names have been wrong. Once again... PhD doesn't always make a person right...
Studies have shown eyewitnesses are unreliable. Did you know that there is no archaeological evidence of a Jesus ever actually existed? Why is that? If he was a man walking on water, turning water into wine, and turning into a zombie after three days, why isn't there any proof of that in the archaeological record? I know if those things happened today everyone would record it everywhere.
The myth of Jesus is a lie perpetuated by the church in order to control all the sheep with fear of hell. And the sheep fall for it.
apostle of truth: You've never heard of fictional writing? Everything written down in the "good book" was written, translated, re-written, re-translated and re-written yet again by humans. King James, of the "King James Bible", had scholars spending years re-writing the entire bible. No chance of the good old King taking liberties with the wording?
Remember, religions were invented by those in charge as a device to keep the masses in line. Scare tactics, bogey-men, etc. kept all the sheep in line.
Even scientists are searching now for the "God Particle". Meanwhile, God's particles are all around us above us and below us. All that we hear, see, smell, all God particles. How small is small? Is this the nucleus beginning"God Particle" or will it too lead to other dimensions. How large is large? Is it the vast universe and beyond what our satelites can take photos and send back to us on the small particle in comparison called "Earth." Is there an edge to this universe?
I believe the answer to be found in the word "infinity."
There are some things our puny human brain will never figure out. That is why faith exists in all cultures of the world.
Lisa,
I suggest you even perform a moderate amount of research before commenting like this.
You are right, there is the law of gravity. There is also the "theory of gravity" or rather "Gravitational Theory" for the google challenged. Try looking that up.
A scientific theory is not something that is possible. It's something that was researched, tested, peer reviewed, experimented, and documented in a very precise, coordinated methodology.
Again you are right in that an aspect of the theory is that it has to be falsifiable. That's also a rule in order for it to be an acceptable theory.
The concept of a god is not falsifiable.
Whether theories collide is exactly why we get closer to the truth!! Theories change as new evidence comes to light.
In reality, for those who want to believe in invisible creatures and have the need to appease them through magical rituals, no one cares. You have the right to; knock yourselves out. It's when you try to force others through law to do the same that we come out swinging.
The majority of the people on this planet aren't Christian. Enough about the pope unless it's information to "know your enemy". Yes, enemy: anyone who causes the suffering of millions, denies people their human rights, and tells me that my friends, family, and I are going to burn in hell for all eternity is my enemy.
I hope that whoever told you your friends and family are going to burn in hell can explain that. I haven't heard that on in all my years in the church.
f* schrodingy your trolling false info shows your lack of intelligence, in fact 90% of the human race believes in a divine being and while only 34% are christian, 90% of americans are christian. so no matter what you athiest are a tiny perc of the worlds population.
F: You hate for hates sake. Do not fear, what you do not believe. Keep your focus on the darkside and it will consume you.
bob-2476682 - no, he does not hate for hates sake. He hates for humanities sake. The Catholic church has much blood and misery on its hands. Just look at what they have done to Africa (aids and condoms). Further, its all based on the bible. The bible is one of the most hate filled, murderous books in all fiction. Just read some of it and ask yourself, are these the words of a god, or the words of a bronze aged tribe who is justifying the slaughter of another tribe.
What you have read you understood? I will not debate the words or who they were meant for, I will only say that the message for righteousness is a noble goal. The road is wide and the path is narrow means what to you? A belief based on Peace, Love, and Happiness cannot be bent to represent your interpretations, nor is the truth of all things hidden. Seek and you shall find.
got news for you chris the africans did that to themselves, if they wouldnt hump like rabbits, or sodomize, or sex with animals, they wouldnt have aids or overpopulation, its hard for any church to take a stand that promotes promiscuity
Actually Apostle for Truth, the only place your statistics come close is the prison population and that sir tells a story of its own.
do just a little research exp, youve obviously done none
F Schrodinglebery,
Good Christ Man! You must be one dumb dude? I mean because your ignorant comment has nothing to do with religion. When you make the retarded statement " the majority of the people on this planet aren't christians". You proved one thing. In school, when it came time to learn. You clearly sucked at social studies ... 800 years ago before the muslim faith came along. In some form or another 90% of the world's people were christians. Today. Worldwide as you the span the globe. At least half of the worlds population is still christain. North America - South America - Europe - Africa, christains make up most of the people. Even Asia has christains! Hey F You Schrodingleberry, I bet your dumb ass didn't know that the Prime minister of Japan was Roman Catholic. Open a book someday you nitwit!
if you take away the areas of the world where the gospels hasnt really been preached, the perc of christians goes up even more
Apostile of truth ~
got news for you chris the africans did that to themselves, if they wouldnt hump like rabbits, or sodomize, or sex with animals, they wouldnt have aids or overpopulation, its hard for any church to take a stand that promotes promiscuity
What do you call it when the priests rape the little boys - maybe promiscuity?? What do you call it when they sodomize the little boys - maybe promiscuity?? Just seems like the pot is calling the kettle lack here....
Calling the kettle black meant to say
F. IA with you. Aren't christian by faith or aren't christian by practice. Look at the vile wording in the responses you are getting. Just look at the pics of the inside of the vatican. They are obscene in their opulence. Shoes of the humble fisherman, my ass. No wonder the churches are losing membership in record numbers. Can't count this country as christian when they have no idea about their own faith, don't practice or even strive to practice, just check the religion box on forms as christian because that's what their family is.
apostle of truth, you are wrong. And you make a horrible christian, attacking everyone and calling them names.
According to the American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS), which was cited by the US Census Bureau in their 2012 Statistical Abstract, 76% of the American adult population identified themselves as Christians, with 25% identifying themselves as Catholics, and 51% identifying themselves as Christians spanning some 30 religious groupings. The same survey says that other religions (including, for example, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, and Hinduism) collectively make up about 4% of the adult population, another 15% of the adult population claim no religious affiliation, and 5.2% said they did not know, or they refused to reply.
"90% of americans are christian..." - apostle of truth (7.2)
Actually 76% of Americans identify themselves as christian. But don't let truth and accuracy get in your way.
They are nothing but a group of pompouss self righteouss egotistical child molesters. The Catholic church inserts it's self as an intermediary for Christ. Without them nothing will come to pass. How they twist religion by making the assumption that confession must be done through a priest. How so ungodly that is. You certainly don't need the Catholic church to communicate with God. The Catholics with all of their glorified palaces with elaborate design so ornate and everything laced in gold. While just outside of their doors in many places are people dieing from poverty and starvation. Yes, all of you almighty priests don't feed the children, molest them. Amen
Confession is biblical
I believe in the possibility of a divine universal intelligence being responsible for all of creation, and that it is possible for each and every one of us to communicate 'in our own way' with that intelligence that we most commonly refer to as "God".
I also believe that The Bible, written by dozens of human beings, in many different versions over a period of hundreds of years after the reported death of Christ, with various books and stories either contained or omitted, is most certainly NOT the "word of God"... It was written and interpreted by living, breathing, eating, defecating, insecure human beings recording and embellishing upon stories learned in the verbal traditions of the past.
How right you are about "The Catholics with all of their glorified palaces with elaborate design so ornate and everything laced in gold. While just outside of their doors in many places are people dieing from poverty and starvation." All of those poor and needy people in those poverty stricken Italian towns and villages that I traveled through, because like complete fools, they allowed "the church" to steal everything they owned, while the Catholic hierarchy lived in opulence.
No one among us needs anyone else to act as intermediaries between ourselves and anyone or anything else... including God, to those who are believers. We don't need tired old men, dressed all in white with solid gold jewelry, and a crown on your head if you're the head honcho, or colorful robes, gold rings, and stupid red hats on the heads of the wannabe's, to "save us" from ourselves, or from some devil living in the middle of somewhere and waiting to punish us for living our lives.
When does the Pope rape the little boy? Must he do it before he is "elected" or immediately following? What color smoke do they let out to make us aware that just happened?
Who will be the next "Vatican Idol"? -
Very clever. clap cap clap
Wow! It's amazing how people act toward Christianity PRECISELY how HE said they would. Just more proof for me.
remember," if the world hates you, know that it hated me first"
Hmmm, if the world hates me, it's cause I'm very skilled at p!$$!ng folks off.
scout: Well said. The truth is the light. We all do things that are not right, because we choose too.
hmmm that was a qoute from Jesus about how ppl would treat his followers, notice at the time he said it all was peachy with his following, it wasnt until after his death and the persecution by the romans did this be fulfilled, showing divine knowledge of the future
Hindsight is a wonderfull thing is it not. Tomorrow I will pick todays winning lottery numbers therfore I am a prophet, or as is central to the practice of Christianity a Profit.
Sorry Scout,
Roman Catholicism is not Christianity so you can't play that card. RC is the furthest thing from Christianity, much like it's sister cult Mormonism.
wrong jeff, rcc is the first church and the verse"many will come in my name and lead even the elect astray" clearly refers to the protestant reformation
Jeff18, wow you are so far from wrong, Christianity is no more than following Jesus Christ. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Now some of the church leaders may not follow the ways of the teachings of Christ, but that doesn't take the people from the christian community.
Bull. Shows an understanding of politics.
It's also written in the bible that you can sell your daughter. What would a good proce for her be? If the Presidents father works on the Sabbath is he obligated to kill him himself or can he order the secret service? Can you play football on SUnday? Would you paint your house on Sunday? Your interpretation of Canon Law is simply inaccurrate. The Catholic Church does not (or individuals should not) teach praying to Mary or any other saint, Icon, relic, etc. The use of the word Father when addressing a priest evolved from a word that closely means teacher and not divine creater or Lord, which you imply. Take the word "blessing" or "blessed", for exmaple. It really has more to do with "congratulations" that anything else. Finally, the icons and symbols found in the church serve as reminders and nothing else. No Catholic should be praying to any idol. Your assertions are simply in error. I would not suggest you come back to the church, your anger seems too ingrained. However, for acurracy sake, at least allow your decision to leave be based on accurate information about the faith.
You want to share which book and verse that says you can sell your daughter? And Jesus says working on the sabbath ain't that bad, I can't remember the exact verse but, he was asking the crowd who among them wouldn't go free their oxen from the mud just cause it was the sabbath.
at the wedding feast of cana ppl came to mary asking about the wine and mary asked Jesus, at first he said whats that got to do with me, but when mary said do whatever he says, Jesus moved by her faith and the fact it was his mother , he changed water to wine,
you ask friends or a pastor to pray for you, this is no diiferent, mary is not here physically to ask her so we pray to her to ask her son for the help we need, if you have a prob with this dont ever ask anyone to pray for you ever again
#4.3 - Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:44 AM EDT
The Bible "sets things straight" 2 Tim 3-16. The Catholic Church is just one so-called-Christian religion that defies the scriptures at Matt 23: 9-11 There are "shepherds" there are "witnesses". There is NO ONE MAN appointed by Holy Spirit leading God's earthly flock. Not since Jesus. There is only Christ and one Heavenly Father's word the Bible to instruct us at this time. And humans are no longer under the Mosaic Law covenant because thru Christ sacrifice, a NEW covenant was made with mankind. We are all spiritually equal, there are no spiritual "Fathers" on earth and the Pope does not have a hotline to God. If anything they would only have a hotline to Christ, as they don't recognize the Father that Christ himself served. Who's Jesus talking about in Matt 18:35? Who does the (18) Bible versions I referenced, show Christ referring to? What about Matt 18:35 or John 14:28? Why do the men in blood stained robes have a special name, yet Christ's own Father's name is omitted from their worship? The whole Catholic Pope thing is Hollywood.
the bible was compiled by thr rcc and nothing you qouted contradicts rcc teaching. esp since you like to take one sentence of scripture and read it out of context, read the whole passage in the meaning the author intended, not what YOU WANT IT TO SAY.
The bible..... the book that brings us gems like this:
Deuteronomy 25
25:11 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets:
25:12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.
How a thinking person can believe this is the mind of a god??? There is plenty more where that came from. The bible supports slavery, ethnic cleansing and the killing of rape *victims*.
Good thing is myth.
Luke 1:28 - And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
They don't pray to the holy mother, they pay homage to the most holy mother.
sorry to disappoint you but many artifacts have been found that confirm writings in the bible, NOT OF JEWISH origin . and have been buried before scriptures were written and found after the bible was written
if she was on earth now ,we wouldnt have to pray to her for her to hear our requests, but since she isnt thats the only way for her to help us just like she did at the wedding feast of cana
btw do you know what "full of grace" means. that means God could not put any more grace in her, ie she was without sin so she could give birth to the savior and he would be without sin
"at the wedding feast of cana ppl came to mary asking about the wine and mary asked Jesus, at first he said whats that got to do with me, but when mary said do whatever he says, Jesus moved by her faith and the fact it was his mother , he changed water to wine," - apostle of truth
I'm curious why it was that jesus turned water into wine. Was he an alcoholic? I mean, he could have changed it into fruit juice, or a nicely chilled V8 (now that's good for ya'!). Maybe it only LOOKED like wine.
Assuming it was wine, was it a merlot? Cabernet? Perhaps a timely beujolais. What did jesus prefer and why wasn't that written down?
I suppose it's better than changing water into scotch. Maybe he did but it didn't sound good so it was rewritten. Though, I guess they didn't know about scotch out there in the desert. More's the pity.
What a weird cult this is. Just look at them. 2013 and this still is going on. Ridiculous.
Gotta love all the secrecy... What the hell is that all about, um we are all going to figure it out so why the secrecy? Oh that's right, to make them feel more important...
Have to agree that all of this pompous dress up stuff in huge churches equipped with milllions in art work and gold looks pretty stupid in a world filled with poverty and hunger. Why don't these self styled buffoons actually practice what Jesus said about money in the temple rather than keep trying to make the church richer?...........And yes I am also very happy to have escaped from Catholic school as a teenager after being threatened that I would be going to hell if I even considered a public school...............self righteous bigots in the Catholic church and the nuns were their agents..........mean and vindictive in many cases with only a few "real" Christians among them.
There are self righteous bigots in EVERY church.... and every religion. You will always find a dis-proportionate few who think they have a hotline to God and no one else does...
Read THE Council OF Trent
According to "The Catholic Encyclopedia," the word "anathema" means "cursed and devoted to destruction". When the Roman Catholic Church anathematizes someone, it officially declares that the person is condemned to hell. [Note 4 gives a link to the article, which describes the ritual and gives quotations from it.]
There is a solemn written ritual for doing this. The Catholic Church believes that God has given it the power and the authority to keep people out of Heaven, and to condemn them to hell.
In pronouncing the anathema, the Pope wears special vestments. He is assisted by twelve priests holding lighted candles. Calling on the name of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Pope pronounces a solemn ecclesiastical curse. He ends by declaring, "We judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate". The priests reply, "Fiat! Fiat! Fiat!" and throw down their candles.
Bronze age cultism. Looks no different than any other bizarre religious Woo Woo.
when is the last time this ritual took place? Just curious as I have never heard of it and there are many archaich laws in religions just as there are in government etc....Not being critical, just wondering? Thousands of years ago things were much different and as we know a lot has changed even in the past 10 years in churches.
Fiat, that's one of them cars with really good gas mileage ain't it?
How is it possible Saneg that a heaven sent pile "o" rules could be archaic therfore in error, Hmmmmm!
Yes scout-one and anyone who drives one should be condemned to hell...lol
While I give the Catholic faith all due respect, the media is going way overboard on the coverage of this pope change. The media never gives any other faith this kind of coverage. To be fair they need to give the Baptist, the Presbyterians, the Methodist, the Christian, the Apostolic, Etc. the same coverage. Enough already.
Your very short list of other denominations shows the folly in the entire religious game. So many gods, so many religions all claiming the ultimate truth while in reality they are all equal views of the untrue.
bobby: Do you know why Rome is the center of the western world?
chris: The fervor in your posts is reminiscent of someone seeking his own truths. They are yours alone. Be at peace and let others do so also.
the media gives it coverage because they know all the hate mongers will come out of the woodwork to attack the rcc, no body would dare criticize islam or another religion
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"no body would dare criticize islam or another religion"
Islam is false. Mohammad abused children (its documented). Its just another made up bizarre religion just like ALL of the others. All myths.
There - happy?
Rome is the center of the western world? What century do you live in? That time is long gone.
do that in detriot and they will arrest you, the cops inforce sharia law there,the chief of police has repeatedly arrested christians for just being too close to muslim areas. your comment has prob got an al qaeda looking for you now
scott; Roots is a better term I suppose, based on the enlightenment occurred because of the teachings of Roman and religious scholars, but you know this. The education of the masses is a result of? Never-mind, I don't want to point out any spiritual connections.
You do realize that if you are christian, you, jews, and muslims are all praying to the same god? You are really just bickering over prophets.
They also prescribe to a portion of the bible.
So, it islam is a false religion, guess what?
As someone said get the show on the road and hopefully it wil be over with much sooner than later because to me all it is a show that costs way to much.
If I were one of the rape victims of one of these priests I would be very very upset to think that all of this is going on like it never happened but it did and no matter who steps in they will ignore what happened to so many innocent children.
Oh quiet up about the little boys thing...yeah, that happens...but that is only because Priests are normal people that try to force themselves to live a way that normal people shouldn't. That is the problem and the reason why there is slightly higher than normal chance of...something bad happening per capita in the priesthood. If Catholics would just decide to let their priests have sex every now and them this problem would likely be no worse than the "average child molesting" that we unfortunately find everywhere. Those are the people that need to be locked up so they are taken out of the gene pool...there is obviously something wrong with them genetically if they are sexual attracted to children.
That said...I cannot wait for this religion thing to die. I know it won't happen in my lifetime, but it will be nice to see it weaken. Any one who thinks they are better than me just because they go to a bomb shelter once a week and perform some crazy ritual that was authored by human hands, and drop some money on a plate to make the car payment for some one's Cadillac needs to wake up. And if I am wrong? Well, I will live a good life, I will take care of my family, I will help others when I can, and go out of my way not to hurt anyone. If that is not good enough to get me into any heaven of any religion, then I do not want to go because it will be filled with dirty worms that claim to have been humans once. I will be judged over who I am...not over what I believe. Big spoiler for every one out there...there are very few people in this world that actually have any faith in the god they worship...they only have faith that the humans that told them about the religion were not lying or crazy (there are a few exceptions like druids for example...hard to to not say nature is real, but every should get what I mean)
Right because we all know the one thing child abuse needs more of is silence.... Until the church as a whole continues to try to cover it up and spend their damn money for the defense of these vile human beings that they hold so high, the rest of us need to STOP IGNORING IT!!
Child molesters no matter who they are are not "normal people". Neither are the men who tried to cover up these monsterous acts by moving around the guilty priests from parish to parish hiding them.
Oh well, the covering up is a whole other story...no they should not do that. When it is found they should be sending the priest to jail ASAP...not quietly move him across the country.
and I didn't mean that pedophilia is "normal". I am saying when you take a normal person with normal wants and desires and entrap them in a world where they can't have those wants and desires...bad things will happen. That is why if you have ten priests or ten elementary school teachers there is a higher chance their will be a pedophile in the group of priests. It isn't only limited to molesting children either. Priests are prone to all sorts of crutches...drugs, alcohol, gambling...it all happens.
your claim is totally erroneous, becoming a priest dosent make you a pedophile, they seek out opportunities such as the priesthood to gain access to kids, the abuse is actually far worse perc wise in schools, daycare etc
not per capita...there are far more day care workers and teachers than priests. The rate of pedophilia in priests is a higher ratio. The are likely not pedophiles in the beginning, but as they come to terms with the life they chose weird thing will happen. Much like what goes on in prisons. You take a normal person and subject them to abnormal conditions and you can get abnormal behavior. That is pretty much text book and easy to research...then when you add in the stuff you can't prove like how much easier it is for the church to hide these activities it really gets you wondering what the numbers actually are. When this stuff happens in a school...when some one catches it there are whistles being blown all over. The church has been caught in multiple cases of trying to hide it and/or trying to rehabilitate the offending priests inside its own organization rather than submit them to the law.
i see you making claims without data, i have researched it and the data clearly suggests rates higher outside the rcc
Well if you want to talk numbers...in 2011, in the US there are about 44,000 priests. There is about 4.4 million elementary school teachers. So every one case in the RRC equals 100 cases in elementary school teachers. There is roughly 100 cases a year in the RRC...that would equal 100,000 cases in schools and the frequency of that is no where near that. That doesn't even get into places like the Philippines where most every one is Catholic. The church is really taking hits over there.
Though again...it isn't anything to do with the church per say...it is just what happens when you take a bunch of mammals that have a genetic driven desire to breed and tell them they can't. i am sure in the beginning of their careers that was fine. The job was more than enough...but after a while...they start getting desperate and look for alternatives...especially alternative they think they can keep quiet.
"Quiet up about the little boy thing?" I can't believe any rational person could say such a thing. I didn't even continue to read the post because that was enough. You must be one of the" sweet ones " that feel that way.
I JUST READ A FEW OF YOUR REMARKS.. YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT ONE THING. TO IGNORE THE GIFT OF A PERSONS SEXUALITY, IS IGNORING GOD HIMSELF! We are asked to replenish the earth! We are Blessed People by GOD and not the evil sinful people that the RCC tells us we are every day. We are Guilty by association with these evil people. Get out! & Get over your Guilt!
Foolishness.
We all have our opinions about the RCC and this conclave, but regardless, if anyone wants to see a pretty good dramatization of the kinds of things going on there, a c.1968 film called Shoes of the Fisherman is likely available in most places. Anthony Quinn and Laurence Olivier head the cast.
My choice is Cardinal Tagle from Manila.
I'd also like to see Cardinal Raymond Burke.
I leave the final decision the Holy Spirit, who is the 3rd person of the Holy Trinity (God). Amen.
You think a mythical holy spirit gets a vote? Let me guess, someone gets inspired by the holy spirit and places the vote which coincides exactly with what they wanted as well, now that is truly awesome.
It is indeed, Explorerdog1. :-)
until you have experienced the Holy Spirit speak to you in a state of contemplative prayer, exp you dont know what your talking about,
Kicked off the island.
Have a hissy fit.
Throw down your candles.
Wear your red shoes.
Put on a silly hat and burn some incense.
Please stop talking about these clowns.
...I'm neither black nor white but an ATHEIST I'm indeed! It seems like a possibility that a BLACK Pope may get elected and I hope so -just so that billions of white Christians would show off their true 'COLOR' and kill this MORONIC religion business. And a BIG BUSINESS it is!
That is a very very slim possibility. Those old white men aren't about to give all the power to a black man.
Why does MSN make a cult event its #1 lead? There are thousands of more important things to the general public to report on.
EXACTLY! It makes no sense to me at all! Not just this website, but ALL of the media outlets have been glamorizing this CIRCUS! Damn shame.
Why did the media make a cult event It's #1 lead six or more months ago? That is how I saw their coverage about the US elections ... simply something for them to expound their stupidity on.
Scott, The Roman Catholic Faith is not a cult. It is an orthodox religion and not spurious. You are living in the year 2013AD. It is 2013 based on the Roman Catholic Calendar starting with the birth of Jesus "The Christ." Even though other calendars like the Chinese Calendar exist in the world today, business runs on the Roman Catholic Clock.
Now you may have a Timex, or you may have a Rolex, but it all runs on Jesus's time!
Perhaps if you would actually read a bible instead of carry it around as an symbol of how wonderful you are as you enter your hate filled "church", you would ask if Jesus would believe that
Ego corrupts some religions of the world like Christianity, Islam, etc. It is man's "Ego" that says: My religion is the only true religion and better than yours. My path is the only way to God and I will destroy you for corrupting my road to heaven.
Ego leads to faulty thinking in man's brain. There would be peace in the world if we really practiced the basic principles inherent in most religions of the world, Love God and your neighbor as yourself.
So think a little deeper and you will find it is "your sense of yourself "Ego" that is your religion. Making negative comments of other's faiths is saying your faith in yourself and perhaps science is your god is a better way to live. Your ego based thinking is no better than those who have a religious faith and believe in God, whatever they conceive him to be.
Inverway - Cult is a subjective term. If a religion is relatively young, it gets called a cult. I hear the Church of the Latter Day Saints referred to as a cult sometimes, although it is generally considered a religion. It's treading that middle ground. A few hundred years from now, I'm sure it would be considered a religion, if it and us have survived.
Here is a definition of cult that catholicism fits: A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
Other definitions mention manipulation and abuse of its members. Does the clergy molesting children count as abuse? I contend that manipulation is rampant in the Catholic church.
Yet other definitions of cult include practices that other find strange or abnormal. I find that true of some Catholic practices.
I don't mean to single out that church, though. That's just our subject.
So, yes, considering Catholicism a cult is defensible.
It is the most popular and astonishing event of the 2013. Or at least one of the greatest events of the last decade. The question that lies upon everybody's lips are the true reasons because of which the Pope Benedict has retired. The truth is that there have been many cases that have thrown the Catholic Church in controversial discussions and on the lime lights, but in a quite infamous way.
Just wish i could stick around and read all of these insane comments. What has this world come to? Why do so many feel the need to down a religion they obviously know nothing about and claim they don't care. If you don't care then why all the fuss? It is absurd. The main stream media is just putting it up front so it can get ratings by people like all of you....They love a good discussion and that's what they got. If you truly don't care,change the channel or move to a different topic on the web just like I do whenI see something I don't like. You all have a wonderful day and may God be with you!
The most vocal opponents of religion actually are far more knowledgable about the doctrine and basis for those religions than the adherents, that is why it is so common for the supposed beleivers to blatently misrepresent the teachings, it is not intentional dishonesty but rather profound ignorance.
Doctrine is one thing, history is another, but experiencing the Spirit of God is what makes a believer or Christian. When a life is truely changed, then the reading of His Word changes also. If you want to call it ignorance...fine...I call it freedom.
Well said Saneg. And "peace be with you."
why do they adorn themselves in gold? Gold (money) seems to be the choice of their lifestile. Just would like to know before I believe.
Well Saneg,
I,for one, was raised in the Catholic Church. By the time I was 10 years old, I figured out it was all B.S.! I knew that back in the 1st c., all Jewish men were married past a certain age. If not they would have been outcasts. I questioned Sister Mary Whatshername, and she said, "Our Lord was not put on this earth for that!". Maybe, but he still would have been an outcast for not following Jewish custom; and we all know how the Jews love their customs! I am NOT Putting down Jews, just stating a fact.
I also knew the crap about transubstantiation was ridiculous! I could understand it being a symbol, but for it to actually BECOME Jesus' physical body? Don't think so. I also read an article by a priest with a newspaper column (don't rag on me because I can't remember his name) who said that the Catholic Church can make up any rules it wants as long as it doesn't CONFLICT the Bible. He didn't say that it had to be in the Bible, just that it not conflict with it.
There were women who were with J.C. and his crowd. They heard him preach. I'm sure they were smarter than some of the men. I believe that those in charge of the church made damn sure the little person never knew of these women's roles.
WHY is there so much secrecy in the church? What are they hiding?
As for Peter, I do not believe Jesus made him pope. I REALLY believe that Jesus was calling him a moron and was sarcastic when he said, "You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Think about it. Jesus REALLY said, "Hey! Rockhead! Yeah, like I'm going to put YOU in charge of my church and I'm sure the gates of hell will not prevail against it! Don't forget! Jesus knew Peter was going to deny him.
In general, the church is sexist, elitist, liars, and it loves keeping its people in the dark about everything. That's why the mass was said in Latin for so many years. We'll tell you we're saying something, but we're actually saying something else altogether.
I'm sure Jesus is completely pi$$ed at this!
It is the most popular and astonishing event of the 2013. Or at least one of the greatest events of the last decade. The question that lies upon everybody's lips are the true reasons because of which the Pope Benedict has retired. The truth is that there have been many cases that have thrown the Catholic Church in controversial discussions and on the lime lights, but in a quite infamous way.
Are you kidding??? The last DECADE??? Over-dramatic much? 9/11 (yes, I know it was 12 years ago), Iraq War, Afghan War, election of first black president, capture and execution of Saddam Hussein... I'd say this "story" ranks about 500th on the list. We're here waiting with baited breath to see who the next leader will be of an international pedophilia cult. Yipee. Let's see just how much the next guy does to further solidify the Church's place in criminal history as well as doing everything to stymie human rights.
The true reason is already very well known: child-rape by leaders of the church. Many cases indeed.
Sweet Reason, get your facts straight. Leaders of the Church were not guilty of child-rape. It was the lowerings who committed such heinous acts and only 4%. Now 4% is far too great and it should not only be 0% but 0 incidents, but American school teachers do worse.
So, get your facts straight.