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Marcos Brindicci / Reuters
Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio of Argentina was elected to lead the Catholic Church following the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI.
Known as a compassionate Argentine archbishop who eschewed the trappings of his role to live amid his flock and who focused on the poor, Pope Francis will likely keep to Catholic teachings that reject abortion and same-sex marriage, experts said Wednesday.
Francis washed the feet of 12 AIDS victims living at a hospice in 2001, an action filled with symbolism in the Roman Catholic Church since it was reminiscent of Holy Thursday and the washing of the apostles’ feet by Jesus.
But in 2010, while Argentina was debating same-sex marriage legislation, he was quoted as calling the bill that ultimately passed “a plan to destroy God’s plan,” and said it was a “move by the father of lies to confuse and deceive the children of God.”
He has also said gays and lesbians should not be allowed to adopt, according to Bernard Schlaeger of the Pacific School of Religion.
“The pope will be Catholic,” Professor Christopher J. Ruddy, an expert in church theology at the Catholic University of America, said of how he expected Francis to respond to some of the controversial social issues. “He speaks and he teaches what the Catholic church teaches on these issues.”
Nonetheless, gay and lesbian advocacy groups called on Francis to embrace LGBT people and their families.
"For decades the Catholic hierarchy has been in need of desperate reform. In his life, Jesus condemned gays zero times. In Pope Benedict's short time in the papacy, he made a priority of condemning gay people routinely,” the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation said in a statement.
“This, in spite of the fact, that the Catholic hierarchy had been in collusion to cover up the widespread abuse of children within its care. We hope this pope will trade in his red shoes for a pair of sandals and spend a lot less time condemning and a lot more time foot-washing," the GLAAD statement continued.
NBC News Vatican analyst and papal biographer George Weigel says Cardinal Bergoglio was the right choice, a man whose simplicity, austerity and gentleness can put the church on the road to a new future. Not a "maintenance guy" that merely oversees the status quo, Cardinal Bergoglio is expected to teach the Church how to be missionary again.
Michael D’Antonio, author of the upcoming book “Mortal Sins: Sex, Crime, and the Era of Catholic Scandal,” thought there may be some opening for Francis to revisit the issues of contraception and mandatory celibacy for ordained priests, but he too felt that the new Catholic leader was not going to “change course in a substantial way” on the social issues that have at times put the religion in an uncomfortable spotlight.
“The name that he chose signals to people the most earthy, the most populist kind of Catholicism, but whether that’s going to translate into greater respect for the voice of the average Catholic has yet to be seen and I think that the symbolism may be good but I really don’t expect real change,” he said.
“We’ve been through decades and decades of scandal and crisis, and this is a man who has been at the highest level of the church through much of it, and he has never said or done anything that indicates that he’ll take a different approach,” he added.
Decline in morale
Meanwhile, the church's teachings on contraception, abortion and same-sex marriage, and its refusal to allow women to be ordained as priests, are blamed by some for the decline in morale among Catholics.
Forty-six percent of U.S. Catholics surveyed think the new pope should “move in new directions,” while 51 percent say he should “maintain traditional positions,” according to a Pew Research Center Poll conducted last month.
Media reports after Francis was named pope talked about him riding the bus with his compatriots, rather than using the chauffeured ride he had as part of his post. He also gave up his stately residence for a simple apartment, where he cooked his own meals.
Francis was known to be a pastor close to the people, who is traditional on matters of faith and morality, “keeping the status quo on moral issues,” said Schlaeger, associate professor of cultural and historical studies at the Pacific School. He said he didn’t expect any major moves from Francis on the social issues, though his being from Latin America and the first Jesuit priest was a “sea change” that could lead him to surprise people.
“They think they know who they have in that he’s not going to make radical change — he could — but I think he (would) have to show probably a very new side of himself to his brother cardinals,” Schlaeger said.
NBC News’ Becky Bratu contributed to this report.
Related:
Pope's to-do list: 7 challenges facing Francis as he starts his new job
Meet the new pope: Francis is humble leader who takes bus to work
Leave a Comment:
The church's teachings on abortion make sense if they are part of a pro-life fabric that is consistently taught and encouraged. This teaching would include opposition to unjust war (like the Iraq war) due to the strong probability that innocent people will be killed en-masse. (By some estimates, up to 100,000 innocent Iraqis were killed during the first years of our invasion of Iraq). The Vatican came out against that war, but did not make it a dictate of church teaching. The irony is that church opposition to contraception is a stronger "teaching" than opposition to unnecessary and unjust war. And the church's view on gay rights, marriage and adoption seems especially ludicrous in light of the current crisis within the church where a sizable number of apparently gay priests have engaged in unwarranted and illegal acts of abuse. But it's not the "acts" that are the biggest disgrace. It's the massive coverup, and the complete lack of genuine ownership and contrition by the Vatican. The church could adopt a policy of greater acceptance of gays within the church, including acceptance of priests who are gay (getting rid of the current "don't ask/don't tell/ sweep it under the rug" policy), a change on the policy toward contraception, women priests, and marriage of clergy. The policy on abortion will not change, and it shouldn't; but it must be part of a more comprehensive pro-life teaching, and that teaching should be presented formally as an official catholic teaching. I hope that there is a sea change with the election of this new pope, but I'm not keeping my fingers crossed.
Pro life is actually pro-birth at all costs. Get it right. And the US pro-life agenda is the actual force that makes wombs dangerous for newborns rather than the contraception red herring.
Elected officials hell-bent on imposing their faith upon a democracy governed by a secular Constitution are reducing pre-natal care for women by writing legislation reducing medicaid for the poor among other laws. Right now US women are five times more likely to die in childbirth than women in Greece. Greece, that economic powerhouse. And US women are more likely to die in childbirth than women in Germany, the country at the other end of European wealth.
Why? Because US women are not being afforded access to pre-natal healthcare. Governors, senators and congressmen are making wombs dangerous. Babies dying because of so-called "dangerous wombs" in the US have NOTHING to do with abortion, but EVERYTHING to do with the so-called pro-life agenda.
The "pro-life" movement also advocates for less help for the children that are born. They want to eliminate food stamps, WIC, children's healthcare via Medicaid and other measures that could help low-income children get a HEALTHY start. It also strikes me that the conservative voices in our country tend to be those that are against allowing working mothers areas in which to pump breast milk while at work (other than in a bathroom which is unsanitary) as well as trying to re-criminalize public breastfeeding of infants under the grounds that it is "indecent" for breasts to be used for their primary purpose. This also compromises the health of infants as breastfeeding allows even low-income women to feed their infants WITHOUT having to resort to WIC and gives the infants antibodies that are not present in formula. It also strengthens the child-mother bond.
As a woman who had health insurance and pre-natal care for my entire pregnancy, had an uncomplicated pregnancy and had no warning signs of any problems and then almost DIED during delivery of my now 6 year old son I can attest PERSONALLY that women still die during pregnancy and delivery. If I had not had an emergency c-section neither my son nor I would be here today. I have a sister-in-law who had placental abruption with her second pregnancy and almost bled to death before they could give her an emergency c-section at 26 weeks. Her second daughter - a child who was wanted and greatly anticipated - lived for 36 hours before she passed away. WOMEN DIE - even WITH pre-natal care and health insurance.
Atheist-6939529 &Cat-1200657
I don't think I could have said it any better. Remember though cat, 77% of the pro life movement is by males. If men could get pregnant, everything you mentioned above would not be cut and their would be more abortion clinics then starbucks.
50% of black babies are never born because they're aborted. Why do you guys hate blacks so much?
Mike, we guys have helped black women to succeed in careers,which led to a lower birth rate. Saying that we hate them is absurd.
A fraternity of old men parading in expensive archaic clothing opposes homosexuality and abortion. They want the rest of the world to believe as they do using religion as persuasion. They live in expensive palaces, not ghettos. They eat sumptuous meals, not hunger.
And the world's stupid and ignorant are suckers, happily sending in their hard-earned cash to the Vatican.
Cassandra-854239, is that what you tell yourself? The bottom line is: the black population is 50% smaller because of you and your ilk.
Even your reply is condescending and full of racism. Oh you "helped black women to succeed in careers", as if they couldn't have done it without you aborting their babies. Oh thank you master for aborting half our population so we can "succeed" in your eyes.
The world cannot sustain a population growth of a billion people every 15 years.
PERIOD.
If you cannot comprehend the reality of that you deserve to become extinct.
Go kill yourself for the greater good, if you really believe that, WilliamOfRites. Oh wait, you want everyone else to sacrifice. How silly of me to assume you're not a total hypocrite consuming more than your share.
What in the world is wrong with you people??? This is exactly what is wrong with the world now... ignorant people like you. The Catholic Church teaches to the bible. I am guessing that all of you are libtards that give no regard to life, have NO morals, or no values. I respect that not everyone has the same views or faith... who are you guys to criticize someone else - just because they believe different than you. i guess a better question - is why? You stand there and take up for gays and abortions -and think that it is wrong to criticize them that believe in it - but you personally criticize people who believe in something different than you. A little hypocritical dont ya think???
The religion is based on the Bible. The Bible teaches what is accepted, what is not. This secular world needs to stop TELLING churches what they are to teach. If you don't agree with the church, get out, and we'll pray for your soul. So many of you people are trying to change the church to YOUR beliefs, which are not the Bible's beliefs. Two different things. Get over it.
Bill-328037
You have it opposite. Tell religion to STAY out of our secular laws. In the United States, GOD is not mentioned anywhere in the US Constitution, nor is the bible, nor is Christianity the national religion of the United States.
According to Amendment #1 - Congress shall make no laws for the establishment of a religion combined with SCOTUS rulings on separation of church from state, and quotes from our founding fathers:
Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.”
― Thomas Jefferson
Proves it. Keep religion out of the secular world and stop trying TO FORCE the bible into our secular laws. In the eyes of the law, we are all 100% equal.
God bless everybody and their absolutes about issues. Everybody acts so high and mighty in their beliefs and condemns others for being intolerant and barbaric. The pro-life/pro-choice debate is the prime example of this I am right while all others who believe differently are evil and haters mentality. I think for one moment, people should honestly put themselves in the shoes of the ordinary person who believes in the opposite ideology. If you understand how the other side views things, you may actually come to respect them even if you don't agree. Once you can respect, you will finally be able to have a sensible discussion. The average person who believes in pro-life or pro-choice is not the extremists that so many people make them out to be. The same holds true for most every other point of debate.
I hope people read this and start acting like mature adults someday. This loud mouth behavior is very unbecoming of most of us.
It makes me cringe, when I hear people like Athiest69 saying how "elected officials are hell - bent on imposing rules favoring religion". If you actually understand the Constitution, it states that you can practice your religion freely, based on your beliefs. What are you doing? You are stating the exact opposite, telling churches/religions they are dinosaurs, and MUST change their way of thinking/believing to yours. That means, you must all think you're more important than the Constitution of the United States.
Listen, if your "elected official" is telling you what to believe, religiously, take it up with the elected official, not the church. I think America is getting the "freeway mentality", where, if EVERYBODY speeds, it's okay. Be careful what you wish for, folks!
Too funny: "Known as a compassionate Argentine archbishop...." except when it comes to civil rights to gay and lesbians. Keep up the doctrine of intolerance. We wouldn't expect anything less.
Bill... I'm all for freedom of religion, and that means having non religious beliefs as well. THE BIBLE TEACHES WHAT IS ACCEPTED... in Biblical terms. The point about education which is significant to remember is that you learn to read, not to just read the Bible, but read in general, from scientific abstracts to comic books, not just the mumbo jumbo or religion. With the advent of communications technology, the choices of thoughts you can read about, all on the same topic, has expanded to the level it's almost impossible to consume all of the literature on just a few topics. There are numerous other explanations for phenomena other than those offered up in the Bible. The Church itself is just trying to repackage the same old oatmeal for breakfast, when those who need breakfast as a source of energy much prefer bacon and eggs.
I can't understand myself, why if the Church isn't providing for one's needs, why people stay with the Church, hoping for a change, when they themselves can't just up and leave the Church. There are plenty of options available than just the spiritual concepts of some old guy in robes and red shoes. The math just doesn't favor any individual's notion that they will achieve and maintain bliss. If the church leadership itself can't provide the example of a "moral and righteous" path for the masses, it doesn't take too much for brains to figure out that's not the working path to follow. The Catholic Church is in decline, because people see the failure in church leadership. The Catholic Church has enough in the way of scandals to demonstrate it is not the "moral and righteous" path to follow. Leadership by example.
Sure, maybe when the churches stop trying to push their views onto the rest of the world!
If you actually understood the law, you would know that religious practice cannot violate secular law. Religious belief has no restrictions.
Is anyone forcing black women to have abortions?
Bill-328037
No, that means you THINK religion is more important than the Constitution of the United States. In this country, secular law is higher than your gods laws.
Just another homophobic dinosaur who wants to lay the blame for ALL the world's problems at the feet of gay people, who's feet he'd wash only if it brought him attention.
It's not surprising that this thread has devolved into a debate about American politics - we are talking about the new POPE, in the VATICAN, from ARGENTINA! Talking about the American Constitution here is pointless, it has nothing to do with the Pope or the Vatican, which is a separate entity. No, I don't expect the new Pope to suddenly say "Hey, gay marriage and abortion are okay now," but I believe this new Pope will put less emphasis on those views and more emphasis on helping the poor, rebuilding and education (he was a high-school chemistry teacher, after all). As a Catholic woman I would LOVE to see a reconsideration of the Curriculum Vitae, and perhaps recognize the errors in that document, but such a change is butting heads with the whole Papal Infallibility thing (something I personally don't accept), so a complete reversal is probably not going to happen either. However, allowing priests to marry could happen, there was a time when priests were allowed to marry and it could happen again. As for abortion, a great way to fight abortion is to fight poverty and illness. It's a sad fact that an abortion is much cheaper than child birth in America. I think he could do alot in that area, but time will tell. Right now I'm hopeful.
Gordo: Wrong again. I give Communion at our Church on a weekly basis to minors. That act is protected by the First Amendment. I love how non-lawyers always opine on the law, especially Constitutional Law, about which they know little or nothing. .
Then it appears you have no problem with eliminating laws about other murders and theft.
The whole world would be a better place if atheists stopped trying to shove their godless views down the throats of those who choose to believe.
Faith is as much of a choice as abortion or birth control.
If you don't like what someone believes, don't join their church, and get your noses out of other people's business.
The Pope is not likely going to support Perverts and Perversion.
Laws against murder and theft predate the bible and are not unique or exclusive to any religious teaching.
Wrong about what exactly? You are perfectly free to give communion. That doesn't violate the law. So your point, whatever it is, is moot!
Apparently, I seem to know far more than you, as you didn't even grasp my previous point.
The reverse holds true too. But ho are atheists pushing anything on you?
And you're perfectly free to choose that if you wish. So what's the problem?
That's ok. Not everyone supports the pope either. Or even cares what he has to say.
looks like the Dopes got a new Pope. BFD, same old wine in a brand new bottle. Still waiting for Jesus lol.
Women are not afforded healthcare? I am a woman and I take complete offense to this. Why aren't women held accountable for their own healthcare? When it become the norm to expect the government to provide something that people should be personally responsible for?
Mike.
Get a life dude and wake up.
you can't blame anyone for black abortions without first blaming the black mother that went to the clinic to have the abortion.
Last time I looked in the US there was not a law forcing black women to abort their unborn babies.
It is a choice.
I might not like it, you might not like it but neither of us are the ones carrying those babies and it isn't our choice to make.
gordy,
You are persistantly pushing your atheist views off on believers with your condescending attitude. Stop trying to shove your godless life off on other people who choose to believe. Hate God or religion or faith if you want. That is your free choice. If someone believes differently than you do, get over it.
Just because you don't believe you have a soul doesn't mean that you don't.
The Catholic Church continues to be intolerant to gays, lesbians, etc.
Why is this news and why do said gays and lesbians feel this need to change an institution that obviously does not welcome them?
They bitch and moan about the Catholic Church yet feel compelled to become part of it. Why else would they feel this need to change it.
Start your own religion then and or join one that is more tolerant of your way of life.
Boys can't be Girl Scouts, maybe you should stop trying to be Catholic.
@ It's About Time
If men could get pregnant, everything you mentioned above would not be cut and their would be more abortion clinics then starbucks.
Makes you wonder why women engage in promiscuous sex with promiscuous men in the first place. But, Americans can't publicly promote virtue in our men and women now can we?
The bottom line is that society can make all the laws it wants to, it can make all the changes it wants to, but God does not or has not changed his laws since the beginning of time. People can make themselves believe it is okay to do all the sinful things against laws because times have changed, but adultry, being gay/lesbian, killing unborn babies, killing period, is all against God and is mortal sin and God's laws will never change no matter what time you are living in. The young people should be being taught about God and what sin is rather all these shrinks going around telling people it is okay to sleep with anyone and everyone, just do what makes you feel good, kill unborn babies because it is your body, when actually God gave you your body and he also commands that you keep it pure and clean. You can make up all the different relgions you want to and all the excuses you want to, but there is only 1 God and one church, and Jesus Christ appointed St. Peter as the first Pope to carry out God's laws just as every Pope therafter should do so.
lambchop09 - do you understand hypocrisy? It goes something like this.... you calling those who believe differently than you do
and then going on to say
followed by
THAT is the picture of hypocrisy.
I invite you to study Matthew 5:22 for starters, "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."
I'm simply challenging various points and claims made. What's so condenscending about that?
By all means, point out precisey where I'm doing any such thing! As I've said before, I couldn't care less what you believe. Or is your beliefs so weak that you feel threatened when they're challenged or scrutinized?
I've made no mention of hating anything.
Like i said, i couldn't care less what you believe. But belief does not automatically mean it's free from scrutiny.
Just because you do believe there is a soul doesn't mean there is !
How are gays trying to change the church exactly?
Thats not entirely true. The cuts are for those who dont need the help but mooch off of the government and us for our tax paying dollars. Im all for helping kids, but there are parents out there who can work, who can get insurance, who can buy their own food, but yet rely on the government to take care of them. This world isnt easy. Its not handed to you on a silver platter, you have to work hard to get by, or at least most of us do. Fraud, is draining our pockets.
I may be pro life, but also pro woman comes in there with that.. meaning I care for the woman health mentally , physically , socially, spiritually when it comes to an abortion. IN the end, it is the womans choice, but I feel if it is going to be her choice, then she needs ALL the information presented to her about her unborn child. What short term and long term effects that she will have to deal with for the rest of her life. She should be able to see what it is that is inside of her that is going to be taken from her body. I think it would be foolish of any doctor to not give all the information, and educate a woman before she makes that final decision that can never be fixed, never taken back, never to be the same again. Thats what kind of laws I want to see passed.
Colorado...do you think murder or theft is wrong just because the Bible has anything to say on the matter? You can't use your own reasoning and determine that killing someone or stealing something from another is wrong? You need a omnipotent all seeing deity watching over you to make sure you do good? Really...? So much for personal conviction and responsibility eh?
The portion of the 10 Commandments dealing with murder is known as common law (or "No Shyte"). These were laws already in existence and commonly understood (again because anyone with any semblance of responsibility knows they are wrong - didn't need a god to tell them that).
The portion of real importance and the "brand spanky new concept for Isreal" wasthe first portion - where suddenly the Israelites are told there is to be ONE deity not multiple. That this SINGLE deity is the one who gets all the worship and a special day is set aside specifically for the worship of this single deity.
Historically the concept of a single deity (even then) was not new - simply a new way of thinking for the Hebrew peoples.
and mr graff how many children have you adopted - if it is none keep your mouth shut - and even if it is say one - if any of your buddies in christ are pro life then back up what you believe and take in those lives - if not go away you do not get to decide what others do because you believe in this silly book and support pedophiles wearing silly hats
gordy327,
Evidently you are too dumb to know that giving alcohol to minors is illegal? During communion, people drink wine. Jatty has given communion to children, so he has given wine to children. Giving wine to children is illegal, but its legal for religious purposes. Therefor, he was simply pointing out that when you said, "If you actually understood the law, you would know that religious practice cannot violate secular law. Religious belief has no restrictions," you were wrong.
Secular law far exceeds the "morality" of the bible. If you use the bible as your only moral compass than you really do not belong in society.
For example, the morality of the bible teaches us:
What do you suppose we are supposed to do with the virgins? I could think of a few things.
Ah ok, this clears it up. It was what I thought it might be. Woot! Virgins for everyone.
Ah the superior morality of getting to marry whomever I rape. Where's that Salma Hayak at?
This must be that loving, forgiving god christians are always spouting about.
There are many, many more examples of this. Have any of you christians actually ever read the bible in it's entirety? Do you understand that even if you prescribe to the 2nd testement it's still the same vengeful, hateful monster from the first?
Do you realize that you believe in talking snakes and rib women? For if you do not, think about this:
No talking snake = no convincing eve to eat the apple, hence no original sin, hence nothing that jesus would die for.
You pretty much have to believe in talking snakes and further that snakes are evil, even when snakes actually help us more by the rats they eat.
The bible is a work of fiction that would make Hannibal Lecter blush. There is absolutely nothing moral, let alone superior, morality in the bible.
It's the morals of bronze age tribal warlords, just like Shariah law or tribal justice in parts of India. It has no place in a modern, cultured society.
If people do not like the Catholic Church or agree with the teachings they can freely join another church. Why should the Catholic Church reform to accommodate there individual desires? The rules are the rules and the beliefs are the beliefs. Don't like it then go elsewhere its as simple as that. Enough said.
Everyone wants to run every group they don't believe in, the way they feel they should run it.
Larry,
You are absolutely right. And I do hope the church maintains it's stance. That just makes it that much less attractive to new members.
Let it keep the 2.5 million member a year decline. In 48 years the church will be basically you and a couple other people.
Agree with Larry. God gave us his laws and he also gave us free will. You can follow his laws and reap the rewards or you can make your own and suffer the consequences. Everyone will have their judgement day. I prefer to spend my life with Him than in the flames of hell.
gordy,
It is interesting how much time you and other atheists spend seeking out articles on the Vine pertaining to religion, faith, and Christianity in particular. If you don't have any faith, why keep trying to force your antagonistic views on those who do? Because you are unaware of spirituality, why try to drag others down who are aware of theirs?
Your logic-filled loathing is most illogical.
I'm Catholic (non-attending) and I celebrate the elevation of a new Pope. It is my fervent wish that this Pope has the common sense to start addressing some of the pressing issues that have made the Catholic Church one which is all but hostile to modern life.
I always hear Born agains say"When you try and do right the Devil attacks you"
Yet we we get a new Pope the flok to attacks us.
Do they work for the Devil?
How long has MSN posted this Pope-a-thon? Is it really so important to trump other world news and what's going on with important things, like war or economics ? NO.
The Catholic church is an archaic religion that is based in bloodshed and hypocrisies. Everyone knows the church is so immersed in pedophiles and homosexuality that it's laughable.
There is a reason why in today's times more and more people are coming out against religion. It is a farce.
Do I need to say fifty hail marys while the priest plays with himself behind the partition? Or give my money to an organization that will buy my way into this "heaven" they have contrived to keep people in line?
Is it any wonder why they call their congregations a , "flock"? It's time to stop being Sheep. I hope the church stays the same, so it will eventually peel off the ass of society like the scab that it is!
Liberals just don't get it. The church has held the same moral beliefs for more than 2000 years. It is not going to suddenly change those beliefs because all of a sudden some brilliant, enlightened bunch of "progressives" appeared in the US and Europe, wanting to do away with those beliefs and rules that make their "anything goes" lifestyles inconvenient. If you don't like the church's teachings, do as many already have.....quit! But don't demand that those who remain faithful to change just to satisfy your little individual preferences....it ain't gonna happen! If you change your mind, the church will welcome you back. But in the meantime, we won't miss you and your socially convenient moral code.
I still remember George Carlin and what he said about pro-lifers and conservatives:
"They are obsessed with the fetus from conception to 9 months. After that, they don't wanna know about you. No daycare, no Headstart, no foodstamps, no welfare, no nothin'. If you're pre-born, you're fine. If you're pre-school, you're f**ked. They don't want to know about you until you reach military age. Then they think you're just fine. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers."
All the wars fought for religion, and all the millions who have died for their beliefs, and to think all the answers needed to solve the problems of the world ,right here on msn!! who'd uh thunk it?? me, im agnostic, just need a bit more proof before i choose sides. when i hear the big toothed, shiny haired guy that blinks alot while preaching to a sold out crowd says he praid and god helped him build his church for 7million instead of the 15million it was originally quoted at, praise the lord its a miracle!!! but hundreds of thousands of people(im sure some of them had to be religious) die in a tsunami, women,children,old men, hundreds of thousands who were surely praying for their lives, yet no miracle?? how can this be? is it location? did they simply bet on the wrong religion? why? i want to understand? i got a friend who swears god helped him keep his shiny new truck, therefore god must exist!! yet we have babies dying of hunger and thirst and diseases that we have had the cure for these diseases for decades!! I just dont understand. Now i dont care what other people believe, i truly hope their is a god, if their is and he/she made me in their image surely they will understand my way of thinking! well, im back to scrolling thru these comments to find the meaning of life.....its gotta be here somewhere!!!!!!!!
As far as George Carlin's remarks (and why would anyone really use his remarks as a rule of thumb is mind-boggling) - Liberals could care less about you from conception until birth - they think it's just fine to kill you right up until the time you are born, which is easy for them since these babies are not able to speak for themselves. Once born, you are the responsibility of your parents - not the government. And in order to protect the freedoms that you so enjoy and use on a daily basis - there is reason to want citizens to join the military, but it's not a requirement. If Conservatives really were so "war oriented" and wanted "dead soldiers" they would be pushing for a mandatory enlistment, and that's just not the case.
I only have one question, will he release the names of all the pedophiles and turn them into the police? If not anyone who values the opinion of these evil people are idiots.
dscott,
Don't give up on your search for meaning, but if you are looking for it in these threads, you might as well give up. This is merely a place to voice thoughts and opinions.
A good to place to really find out answers is in an NIV study bible that has all of Jesus' words in red print. Just reading the red print alone will give you all the information you need.
Good luck to you.
Mike, you are one sick, racist little individual. Malcolm X reincarnated? How did this topic become about the evil white devil (again!)?
Tired of Stupidity-946705: Thoughtful and brilliantly stated!
Thank U 4 your thoughts, Mike.
4 a couple of seconds, I thought U were gonna blame this new pope on Obama.
(yep, sarcasm)
No one is forcing anything on you, you have choices the thing is you have to be accountable for your own decisions, but you prefer to impose your bad judgment on others, its not my fault if you have sex and the result is a unwanted child or a health problem, the solution is if you cant handle the consequences of YOUR decision/actions why should the rest of us bare the burden, it was your decision! you deal with it and keep the liberal government out of my life, another form of free choice! if it is your choice that got you there then its up to you to find a solution, in the old times we were aware that we would be responsible for our actions and we personally or with assistance of our own families would have to owe up to our actions and be accountable, why do people today think its the governments responsibility to tax the population to pay for your mistake, your logic is a full bubble off plum, free choice is not having something forced on you, we have enough social safety nets to help people that need help we don't need to allow people to abuse society, try not having sex if you cant handle the consequences. has that even occurred to you! if we keep going this rout we will become communist and spend the rest of time trying to get away from it. because the leaders in time will start to think everything is theirs and they don't want to share it with you just like Your buddy Kim and his followers, he even goes as far as to tell his peasant's when and when not to cry. he buys his Generals Rolex watches and his people tell time by listening to the loudspeaker in the square. the lucky peasants have a Bicycle and his Generals have luxury cars that they can drive on almost emptystreets. but that's OK they don't have to hurry home to watch Snooky because the only thing on TV is the government controlled propaganda channel for three hours of brainwashing and a weather report from the day before. but its a accurate report. its true North Korea is the epitome of a liberal Socialist country everyone is politically correct if not its off to camp for some re training on how to be a good liberal socialist and keep your opinions to yourself, remember the Government is in charge of everything and that is what the North Korean people fought for. they wanted their government to take care of them and run off the religious thugs. they got their social programs and the government constantly reminds them how happy they are and how lucky they are to be free of religion, especially religion that sets guidelines on morality and attempts to teach its believers about the differencebetween discipline and free choice. you have free choice let the rest of us have free choice, we can meet somewhere in the middle. responsible to ourselves. leaning on each other but not one carrying the other.
that's to bad for the catholic church, lets see if i have this correct. No to same sex marriage, no to abortions, yes to protect and defend pedophiles in their church. Seems to me their morals are made up for their convenience.
"We hope this pope will trade in his red shoes for a pair of sandals and spend a lot less time condemning and a lot more time foot-washing," the GLAAD statement continued."
Ok other than it gets him out of his Ivory Tower, what good does this do? R these people invalids?
lol- I'm just happy that the Catholic Church will probably die out in my lifetime. I didn't have a problem with it when I was younger, but after hearing the deliberate cover up of priests sexually abusing innocent little children (boy or girl) and then denying it instead of accepting the responsibility, seeking forgiveness, and ensuring that this would never happen again, I've changed my mind.
I love the teachings that Jesus Christ espoused, but I don't see Jesus Christ or his teachings in the Catholic Church anymore. Jesus said "if a man looks with lust on a woman, he should pluck his eyes". What about priests who raped and molested little boys? Did they follow their god's teachings or did they just cover it up and pretend to be holier than thou. Now we are hearing about another church sex scandal involving church higher-ups and prostitutes. When will Catholics figure out that god isn't in the Catholic church. God got tired of all the @!$%#ing around (literally) that the priests did and he left.
Colorado- Some of the laws happen to line up with things in the bible because they can be justified as being wrong without taking anything from any religion. If we take murder, for example, we can say that it should be illegal because you are causing harm to another person (not all deaths are peaceful or painless), you are taking something away that cannot be replaced (we cannot reanimate the dead), and a society that allows its citizens to murder without consequence will collapse (if we could kill others for any reason-say somebody was being annoying or disagrees with you, there'd be like 5 people left in the US). I'm sure there are other, non-religious reasons why murder should be illegal, but you can see how a secular nation could have laws that may happen to overlap with something in any (take your pic) religious text.
Think about it this way-would you be ok being subjected to laws derived solely from a religion that you do not subscribe to, and may even be strongly opposed to? If not, you don't have the right to turn around and do the same to others. If I don't want an arbitrary stranger telling me what choices I can make in my personal life (in any aspect-from where I live and what I do for a living to what religion I chose to who I marry, or if I don't get married at all, how many kids I have etc), then I have no right to do that to others. Regardless of whether I agree with or support their choices or not.
Ultimately, what to preach is up to the Church. It'd be nice to see a shift in focus to helping those in need rather than pushing political beliefs/agendas and accumulating personal wealth as the number one priority.
If the Catholic church takes another look at the various issues and cannot find Biblical support for changing its position on these matters, it should not change its position, period.
Cat-1200657-If having a baby is going to require gov't assistance, you have no business having a baby until you can handle the financial responsibilities. Yes, accidents happen, but I'll bet there are far more people already on gov't assistance that have an additional baby so they can get more aid and a bigger rent assisted apartment. I'm tired of being taken advantage.
My question on the foot-washing is a legitimate question. Is the only answer symbolism?
I see much protestation and rancor with the realization that this new pope (or, for that matter, any pope) will not implement the agenda of the enlightened folk, for whom change is progress and liberty is license.
Clearly, any pope worthy of the office would have to have an agenda transcending the base political concerns that activists obsess over. And this man seems to have an actual track record of having lived the maxim: "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's." Those who cannot think past the next election are incapable of undertanding or appreciating an institution that thinks and works through centuries and millenia.
What would be the point of any religious leader who merely embraced whatever the current decadence and pandered to the whims of popular opinion? Don't we have politicians for that purpose? Should Moses, coming down and finding his people reverted and perverted to worshipping a golden calf, have said "oh well, I tried" and thrown away his tablets? Surrendering to whatever the current fad or fashion, trimming sail so as to catch the popular fancy is a recipe for banality and irrelevance...the clear fate of the so-called "mainstream" Protestant denominations.
As an agnostic, I have no faith whatsoever in my own future or significance in terms of any eternal purpose. But I do understand that, as long as the Catholic Church hews to its principles and its legacy, it will long outlive any person reading this, NBC itself and any government currently on the face of this earth.
Jesus said NOTHING about homosexuality and yet the Catholic church condemns it regularly. On the other hand, Jesus said people who remarry (with the exception of infidelity) are committing adultery and the Catholic church says nothing. We must assume therefore, that the Catholic Church's position on homosexuality is based on ignorance and hate rather than the words of Jesus.
Not being Catholic (but a Christian), I have a couple of questions about the Catholic religion that have always confused me. The Bible clearly states that you should worship no other God but Jesus and the Father; however, every Catholic church I've been to has statutes of saints and Mother Mary that people seem to pray to.....why? Isn't this against the teachings of the Bible? I mean, isn't this the same thing the Bible tells us about not "bowing down to idols?"
Secondly, the Bible also states that you don't need anyone to come between you and your God....why do the Catholics seem to think they need the Pope to intervene for them with God. Anyone can pray directly to God.....they don't need a saint, the Mother Mary, or a Pope to hasten their prayers to God.
There are so many things within the Catholic Church and it's teachings that go directly against what is said in the Bible....it's confusing. Additionally, the Bible is NOT the exact word of Jesus.....the New Testament was written well AFTER he died by various of his disciples; the Old Testament was written BEFORE he was born; AND since none of us were alive when this occurred, we don't know exactly what happened. The Garden of Eden is a parody..... In the meantime, the Bible is basically a book of "morals" in that it was meant to teach us how to live our lives as Jesus and his Father wanted us to live them. It's kind of the "Emily Post" of the religious world. It's not the "be all, end all" of what we are to believe in. It's a guidebook for how to live a moral life.
As for the church condemning gays and lesbians......Jesus said we were all created equal, and I read that to mean that this would include gays and lesbians (God loves them all). The Bible also says that "thou shalt kill;" yet, the Catholic Church did a lot of that during the Crusades, and I also don't hear them doing much to condemn the wars going on in the Middle East and the over 4,000 U.S. soldiers and thousands of Iraqi civilians who have been killed. They can condemn abortion on one hand; but they do nothing about condemning the killing of people in unwarranted wars! Just asking....
Anyway, I totally believe in God, and this is why I have questions of the Catholic faith....it's totally against a lot of what is in the Bible as I've read it. Maybe someone can explain to me so I can understand.
Good luck, Didi. The Catholics seems 2 have clammed up.
Hello folks, Some things never change. Here's the new boss same as the old boss!
Don't let anyone kid you the Vatican is worth at a minimum hundreds of billions of dollars. The new Pope Moe Lester in charge will live in the lavish gold encrusted opulence that is the Vatican.
This mortal man who is just another human has a checkered past.
"Former Cardinal and Pope-elect “Francis I”, Jorge Mario Bergoglio, is accused of helping kidnap opponents of Argentina’s military junta during the 1970′s “Dirty War”, and of baby trafficking, by lawyers and members of the Plaza de Mayo human rights group. (Los Angeles Times, April 17, 2005, “Argentine Cardinal Named in Kidnapping Lawsuit”,http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/17/world/fg-cardinal17
"General Jorge Rafael Videla and some of his military and police cohorts were convicted by their country’s courts of the murder of 31 people between April and October 1976, a small fraction of the killings they were responsible for. What one did not hear from any senior member of the Argentine hierarchy was any expression of regret for the church’s collaboration and in these crimes. The extent of the church’s complicity in the dark deeds was excellently set out by Horacio Verbitsky, one of Argentina’s most notable journalists, in his book El Silencio (Silence). He recounts how the Argentine navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship’s political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate. The most shaming thing for the church is that in such circumstances Bergoglio’s name was allowed to go forward in the ballot to chose the successor of John Paul II. What scandal would not have ensued if the first pope ever to be elected from the continent of America had been revealed as an accessory to murder and false imprisonment."
Stephen...you are so very WRONG in this assessment with regards to gays. You have no idea if the priests that did these abusive acts were gay or not AND the motivation for the abuse of children (or women for that matter) is power, not the sex itself.
all must understand this Pope is a Jesuit ; that order rules with a iron hand, they do lead the church in scientific thought, in Jesuit University's they do teach that man/woman, did evolved over many millions of years, however their is one universal truth, that God created everything from nothing, the Jesuits are even responsible for opening up trade with China and Japan in the early 15th century, when most people did not even know of the existence of those cultures.
Jesus would be rolling over in his grave...if he had one..
Hmmm..... Pope.... God...... Jesus, Son of God....... Bible is fact..... uh, yeah..... thaat's what he's SUPPOSED to do......... why would ANYONE think different?
If you want a god-less heathen running the Catholic church..... should have elected Obama
losghost
And you get your morality from where ? Just out of thin air ?
Perhaps you learned it from your parents.. but then where did they learn theirs, and before them. Or perhaps you feel you can just " Be Good " in your own eyes, or even in our societies eyes.. but that is also subjective to each persons views. With out that " moral compass " and " Absolute authority of morality and goodness " then anyone could think anything they want.
As for the rest of your quotes ripped out from the bible there trying to show something immoral about God, you really need to dig further into the theology of the scriptures you quoted. There are answers, but I wonder if it would even matter to you. Sounds like your mind is already made up on what you think.
True that a lot of people have been killed by those in religious power, but those numbers pale in comparison by the killing of atheistic Rulers in power. DOnt believe me just google it and read about how many more people have been killed.
First, let me ask this question: What is more moral? Being told how to behave from a book and behaving that way for fear of reprisal?
or
Behaving that way because you recognize the right of another to exist as you do?
If morals can only come from the bible, how do you explain that murder and theft is seen as immoral ubiquitously across the planet, across all religions and non-religions? Where does that come from?
Do you realize that humans are not the only primates with a sense of morality and fairness? There was a recent study done with Rhesus monkeys that exhibited the same traits as humans in fairness. Where did the monkeys get it from? Surely they must have been Christian monkeys right?
Anyone CAN think anything they want. That's the entire point. They can THINK rape is wrong, they can think killing people no matter what the cause, is wrong. The bible has no place for that sort of thinking. The bible is not in the least a moral document and it's amazing that you think it is.
What exactly in the bible in this "moral compass" you speak about? 10 commandments? 613 Mitzvas? What? How many of those 10 commandments actually are dealing with any kind of ethics? Honor the sabbath and keep it holy?
What answers to the monstrosity of the bible are you referring to? You are trying to say I'm interpreting it wrong, which is typical of most christians suffering from cognitive dissonance.
I've read the whole thing many times so I'm wondering what part you are referring to as me missing?
How do you think I know so much about the bible, Rome, Greek/Roman mythos, and christian mythos?
It mattered to me so much I decided to study it, ALL of it, not just the warm and fuzzy bits that ARE the parts ripped out and repeated ad nauseum.
Learn a little about the religion you prescribe to. Where it came from, how it became the number one religion. Learn where the bible came from and most importantly, what preceded it.
Did you know it's actually a political document created by committee?
Did you know that the 10 commandments are actually also commandments written in the Egyptian book of the dead some 1000 years prior?
Read your bible. Read the whole thing and remember thatthe god in the front is also the same guy in the back.
Search for proof that jesus was ever actually a real person. Outside of the bible, there is none but two roman authors, in all of a couple thousand years with 2 lines of text translated by monks and considered forged. (Tactitus and Josephus).
This isn't something I've casually arrived at. I've put enough study into it to do a doctoral thesis.
Unlike you, I want to know where we came from and why we are here. Any old unsubstantiated answer will not do however.
There is the difference between you and I.
Once again morality is learned from some where. It just doesnt come to be. I guess if you was born in the wild, and never had any contact with a human being, and some how grew up and lived an isolated life, you would have all kinds of ideas on morality, if you could even comprehend the meaning of it.
What is your point here ? Are you saying murder and theft is Good or bad ? Which is it to you and why ? What makes Murder Bad for any of us, where other places in the world murder is good. I mean we butcher the unborn in women, many people think that is good. Some atheistic rulers have killed millions of their people, it was good to them. Our world is over populated, maybe someone who thinks the same thing has access to about 100 nukes or some super flu that can wipe out about 3/4 of the earths population.. that to some would be good.
With our an absolute source of Goodness, then Good and evil is nothing more than subjective reasoning.
Exhibited is a very loose term... Animals lack one major thing we have, and that is the ability to use logic and reasoning. They are good at imitating and learning, but to say they are human like, is being far fetched.
The bible doesnt condone us rape or murder.. if it tells us its wrong, then that kinda sounds like a Good moral to me.
Actually most people who have a hatred toward God and the bible do indeed interpret it wrong. I cant tell you how many times I have gotten into debates over a simple topic as slavery. People just rip one liners and , or try to make some sentence mean something else out of context .. It still boggles my mind that people think that the bible condoned slavery, and even then the slavery that is talked about in the bible is nothing like the slavery we are used to hearing about from the civil war era.. Completely different on all accounts.
It takes and open heart and an open mind to understand Gods word. ANy thing you can toss at me about the bible can be answered easily. Do you think your the first person , or have some exclusive supposed contradiction that hasnt already been brought up hundreds of thousands of times before you and I existed ? Its the same stuff , just different generations. In the end, it comes down to you just not listening to the answer, or in reality, you just dont care because your heart is hardened and could care less about God or the bible.
IM well aware of how the documents came to be, how many books there were before the final ones were decided on, and well aware of all of the councils of the first few centuries..
WRONG !!!
http://kingdavid8.com/_full_article.php?id=aa5da8cc-6283-11e1-be10-176ee32615f7
Many skeptics point out that seven of the Bible's ten commandments also appeared in the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which preceded the book of Exodus by several centuries. The part of the Book of the Dead in question is the Papyrus of Ani, where a "negative confession" is given. That is, a person who has died and is entering the underworld is listing sinful things that they have refrained from doing, and thus declaring themselves worthy to enter the underworld. These aren't commandments being given here, simply statements the person is saying about themselves, though they are declaring these things to be sinful, as the ten commandments are doing.
The points of comparison are these:
1)
Commandment: "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain"
Negative confession: "I have not cursed God."
2)
Commandment: "Honor your father and your mother"
Negative confession: "I have not opposed my family and kinsfolk."
3)
Commandment: "You shall not kill (murder)."
Negative confession: "I have not committed murder."
4)
Commandment: "You shall not commit adultery."
Negative confession: "I have not committed adultery."
5)
Commandment: "You shall not steal."
Negative confession: "I have not stolen."
6)
Commandment: "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
Negative confession: "I have not uttered lies."
7)
Commandment: "You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor’s."
Negative confession: "I have not defrauded the humble man of his property."
However, what these skeptics almost always fail to point out is that the "negative confession" includes about a hundred sins, including stopping the flow of water, homosexuality, causing hunger, raising your voice, acting with arrogance, acting with undue haste, stirring up strife, cursing men, eating hearts, and many others. So, essentially, whoever wrote the Papyrus of Ani has listed one hundred things that they found to be sinful, including over ninety sins that weren't included in the Ten Commandments.
Think about this - suppose that I ask one person to list around a hundred things that they find to be sinful, and then ask another person to list ten things that they find to be sinful. Is it going to be at all unusual if both lists contain about seven of the same sins? Just about everyone is going to include murder, robbery, adultery and lying (four of the sins in common between Ani and Exodus). Those who believe in honoring gods (as the writers of both books did) are probably going to include blasphemy.
For the other two sins, the comparisons are really rather weak.
The sixth item that skeptics claim is copied is "coveting", but, in reality, the Papyrus of Ani doesn't say that coveting itself is a sin, as the Ten Commandments do, but only call it a sin when it is acted upon, when one defrauds another out of his property, so this is a pretty weak comparison. In fact, the Papyrus of Ani confession really goes along with "thou shalt not steal", and coveting itself (that is, simply desiring what doesn't belong to you) isn't in the Papyrus of Ani at all.
The seventh is the comparison of the Ten Commandments saying to "honor your mother and father" while the Papyrus of Ani says "I have not opposed my family and kinsfolk." Opposing and dishonoring are not exactly the same thing, though both are forms of disrespect. Is there anything unusual about two different people considering it a sin to direspect one's family? Not at all.
So the fact that some of the same sins are included in both lists aren't a sign of copycatting at all, but only signify that different people in different places consider many of the same things to be sinful.
The Ten Commandments are (I've italicized the ones relevant to this issue):
1) I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me.
2) You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
3)You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
4) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.
5) Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.
6) You shall not kill (murder).
7) You shall not commit adultery.
8) You shall not steal.
9) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10) You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor’s.
The Papyrus of Ani, from the Egyptian Book of the Dead (full text here) says (in part):
1) I have not committed sins against men.
2) I have not opposed my family and kinsfolk.
3) I have not acted fraudulently in the Seat of Truth.
4) I have not known men who were of no account.
5) I have not wrought evil.
6) I have not made it to be the first [consideration daily that unnecessary] work should be done for me.
7) I have not brought forward my name for dignities.
8) I have not [attempted] to direct servants [I have not belittled God].
9) I have not defrauded the humble man of his property.
10) I have not done what the gods abominate.
11) I have not vilified a slave to his master.
12) I have not inflicted pain.
13) I have not caused anyone to go hungry.
14) I have not made any man to weep.
15) I have not committed murder.
16) I have not given the order for murder to be committed.
17) I have not caused calamities to befall men and women.
18) I have not plundered the offerings in the temples.
19) I have not defrauded the gods of their cake-offerings.
20) I have not carried off the fenkhu cakes [offered to] the Spirits.
21) I have not committed fornication.
22) I have not masturbated [in the sanctuaries of the god of my city].
23) I have not diminished from the bushel.
24) I have not filched [land from my neighbour's estate and] added it to my own acre.
25) I have not encroached upon the fields [of others].
26) I have not added to the weights of the scales.
27) I have not depressed the pointer of the balance.
28) I have not carried away the milk from the mouths of children.
29) I have not driven the cattle away from their pastures.
30) I have not snared the geese in the goose-pens of the gods.
31) I have not caught fish with bait made of the bodies of the same kind of fish.
32) I have not stopped water when it should flow.
33) I have not made a cutting in a canal of running water.
34) I have not extinguished a fire when it should burn.
35) I have not violated the times [of offering] the chosen meat offerings.
36) I have not driven away the cattle on the estates of the gods.
37) I have not turned back the god at his appearances.
38) I have not committed sin.
39) I have not committed robbery with violence.
40) I have not stolen.
41) I have not slain men and women.
42) I have not stolen grain.
43) I have not purloined offerings.
44) I have not stolen the property of God.
45) I have not uttered lies.
46) I have not carried away food.
47) I have not uttered curses.
48) I have not committed adultery.
49) I have not lain with men.
50) I have made none to weep.
51) I have not eaten the heart.
52) I have not attacked any man.
53) I am not a man of deceit.
54) I have not stolen cultivated land.
55) I have not been an eavesdropper.
56) I have not slandered [no man].
57) I have not been angry without just cause.
58) I have not debauched the wife of any man.
59) I have not polluted myself.
60) I have terrorized none.
61) I have not transgressed [the law].
62) I have not been wroth.
63) I have not shut my ears to the words of truth.
64) I have not blasphemed.
65) I am not a man of violence.
66) I have not been a stirrer up of strife.
67) I have not acted with undue haste.
68) I have not pried into matters.
69) I have not multiplied my words in speaking.
70) I have wronged none.
71) I have done no evil.
72) I have not worked witchcraft against the king.
73) I have never raised my voice.
74) I have not cursed God.
75) I have not acted with arrogance.
76) I have not stolen the bread of the gods.
77) I have not carried away the khenfu cakes from the Spirits of the dead.
78) I have not snatched away the bread of the child, nor treated with contempt the god of my city.
79) I have not slain the cattle belonging to the god.
80) I have not made light the bushel.
81) I have not acted deceitfully.
82) I have not uttered evil words.
83) I have not slain a bull which was the property of the god.
84) I have not pillaged the lands which have been ploughed.
85) I have never pried into matters [to make mischief].
86) I have not set my mouth in motion.
87) I have not been wroth except with reason.
88) I have not been a man of anger.
89) I have not turned a deaf ear to the words of truth.
90) I have not stirred up strife.
91) I have not committed acts of sexual impurity, or lain with men.
92) I have cursed no man.
93) I have not acted in a violent or oppressive manner.
94) I have not acted [or judged] hastily.
95) I have not done things to effect the cursing of [the king].
96) I have not acted with insufferable insolence.
97) I have not sought to make myself unduly distinguished.
98) I have not increased my wealth except through such things are [justly] my own possessions.
99) I have not scorned [or treated with contempt] the god of my town.
IM well aware of all of the Extra biblical History about Jesus, and or events recorded in that era.
First I would like to say, there doesnt need to be an abundant amount of writing about Jesus. WHy would there be ? Prophets and so called Messiahs were a dime a dozen in those times. To most of those people Jesus would had been just another whacko looking for attention. So why would there be great historical writings about him ? The jews hated him and rejected him anyway. So to me it fits quite well that the historical records of jesus are not found all over.
Also the words and testimonies of his Disciples is enough evidence for his existence anyway.
I dont mean to be disrespectful but I dont see you really putting the amount of study in you say. Or if you did , you went at it with a close mind or just didnt get all the information that is out there. To me, your mind is made up and you have made your choice of turning your back on God, and wanting to be separated from him. Its a sad thing to think about, but in the end, its your choice and one you will have to live with for eternity. Im making sure I got it right, and I will stand firm on the Word of God, and his love and mercy. To each his own.
What do you mean unlike me ? I already know where I came from, where people came from. How we got here. There is no other sound explanation and please dont drag the whole evolution , big bang, goo to human evolution mess up. None of it is sound, all assumptions, based on nothing. When there is empirical, observational science, then it will get my attention.
This is a red herring. Where in my statement are you required to be born isolated in the wild? Obviously if you are raised alone you would not have the same ability to emphasize as you would raised in a community.
In every country on the planet killing someone = bad. Your religion is not necessary to figure that out.
What makes murder bad? The idea that you would not want it to happen to you or a loved one? Is that a hard thing to conceive for a theist?
At what point of abstraction do you go here? Is masturbation murder? Womans ovulation? At what point does reproduction override the will of the existing host?
Some have mustaches. What are you trying to attribute here? We're not arguing whether or not people have murdered each other.
This is called a "slippery slope" fallacy. Who would that person that it would be "good" to and how can you be so certain that it is? Think about this, you need to go to the extreme of superflu and 100 nukes aka Dr Evil or some James Bond fiction to give this example.
Thing is, in a recent pew study it was found that Atheists are more giving than theists. So the evidence does not support your claims here.
It's not an absolute. If it were, you would never need church or a priest to "help" you interpret it. It's as subjective a "truth" as you assert above.
- I don't have enough time to get to the rest of your statement but promise to get to it a little later.
Animals do not lack reason and logic. Many animals use tools, Ravens, Chimps have been observed using tools to attain a goal. That requires both logic and reasoning.
What animals lack, or so we believe as they cannot tell us, is self awareness.
Where? What verse specifically says "Thou shalt not rape"? I can point to several that says to take the virgins for yourself and kill everyone else. I can also point to ones that tell you how much you have to pay a virgins father, but I've seen none that say it's wrong.
Murder? You do realize that the only murder the bible does not condone is that of someone from your tribe. Other than that, hack and slash at will.
Do you have a hatred towards the tooth fairy? Why would you hate something you do not believes exists?
I've heard the very tired argument of theists using their cognitive dissonance to try and argue that the slavery in the bible was some sort of kinder/gentler slavery than that in the south of the US. That's just simply bull@!$%#. We know historically exactly what the life of a slave was and no amount of apologetics is going to change that. There is way too much evidence against anything you have to say about it personally and have none to show that what you say is even in the ballpark.
Besides, when you can nail a mans ear to the door, that's the kind of slavery that they intend.
Is this the "kinder/gentler" slavery you are referring to? What document do you think that the south used to make the argument for keeping slaves and their treatment of the slaves?
Actually it takes quite the opposite. An open mind would consider the possibility that the entire religion is contrived and man made. Would you admit that it's all made up is in the realm off possibility? I highly doubt it.
It comes down to me not listening to the answer? The answer has been to just accept what you have to say on authority. I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way.
In all those times before, trying to discern the world that way has led to nothing but misery and ignorance.
My heart is not hardened, anyone that knows me knows that I am the sort of person that would give you the shirt from my back. Your attempt at attributing bible verse to me is incorrect. I will listen to anything you have to say and give it equal weight to any other concept.
The difference is I will not give it special weight for special pleading or attempts at metaphysical duress.
So then we are agreed that it was a group of men, that for political reasons assembled the book that today is considered the bible.
First, I would like to point out that you contradict yourself here with your first point on morality. You imply that absolute goodness comes from god and the bible, and then go on to say how the book of the dead has confession of sins.
Then you have to go to lengths and a great deal of pedantic pleading to try and make a separation. When one contrasts these *laws* with those of other religions, they are almost identical except for their participle.
Compare to Shinto law:
Or Manusmrti that deals with Class based systems and how to conduct business.
Or Taoism:
A: Laws of Yin-Yang
B: Laws of Mutual Immanence
C: Laws of Dynamics
The point is, these religious laws are no where near the same context, ballpark, or even continent.
When you then look at the egyptian laws, then the hebrew laws, consider the geography and the influence on each other it doesn't take a whole lot of imagination stretch to connect the dots.
Firstly, my point was that there is no *extra biblical* documentation of jesus. No mention of the events in the bible by any scholar of the time, save two. Tacitus and Josphus. The first, being several major problems. 1. That he incorrectly states pontius pilate rank as a prefecture and when was a prelate. Second, that he refers to jesus as "Christus". No roman scholar of the day would have referred to a common criminal this way.
In Josephus, the spacing in the text of the document written by 12th century monks show that the words were edited. There are no originals either.
Where do you find evidence of jewish scholars mentioning jesus outside of the bible? You cannot use the bible to prove the bible. That's fallacious circular reasoning.
No, you do not. You have *faith* that you know where people came from. I would ask of you what I would any scientist making the same claim. Show me.
This is my point. We do not know where we came from for certain, but we have a good idea. At least one that does not involve talking snakes and rib women.
A scientific theory is not "an assumption" and I have a feeling no amount of evidence will change the mind of one that is indoctrinated.
Boson-Higgs discovery was just announced after two years of analysis. Want to talk about that since you don't like talking about evolution?
We can talk about testable, demonstrable physics. Would that be ok?
ou guys are really good at ripping quotes out of the bible with out any research on the sentences on what they mean. You all do a good job at butchering meaning.
ANd so what about the boson higgs.. It doesnt prove anything that has anything to do with god. It means nothing to me.
What do you mean? I'm not cherry picking a few words. I've given clear examples with multiple verse to support what I'm expressing. What is taken out of context?
As far as the Boson Higgs particle, it does very much lend itself to do with the concept of god. God, has over the years, been relegated to an ever shrinking corner of mysterious creation.
Now, what was once theorized, has been corroborated with direct evidence. Science marches onward and there is less and less room to insert a god as a cause.
What boson higgs proves is that the big bang is possible, so is the oscillating universe theory. God, along with Tebow, is getting sent to the minors.
The bible does not condone rape. Show me where God Says its good to rape a woman ?
Hum . thats what Jesus Taught ? to Murder people ? Funny I seem to recall one of our commandments Thou Shall not Murder.
Irrelevant since there are no accounts of firts hand witnesses who seen a tooth fairy, or their being prophecy about the tooth fairy, and it coming true.
The tooth fairy didnt come and die for my sins, and rise again from the Dead, Jesus did, and people witnessed such and wrote about it.
I am not sure of any main stream theist who would compare any type of slavery to the south or being kinder and gentler.
Let me ask you something.. Can you make it in life just living day by day doing nothing ? No source of income, no roof over your head , no food on your table ect ect ..
No you cant, so what do you do in life ? Well we go to an employer and we enslave ourselves to them, so they may take care of us by paying us money, or some jobs they provide food, shelter, and money.. This is the type of slavery back then that is condoned. Any type of slavery where you hurt, or mistreated a slave, was very bad before Gods eyes. NO where does it say to mistreat your servants.
I dont know why people cant separate our era of time, from their era of time. Positions, laws, rules, meanings, translations, words .. all different in our time from their time.
Now, the claim is that the Bible states that God considers it okay to beat your slaves…let us stop here for now: where does it state any such thing? It states no such thing whatsoever. What it states is “if a man beats…” Now, this is a big IF which spells the difference between the atheist assertion and what the text actually states. The texts is referencing what the litigious result are to be if this happens and there is absolutely no indication in the entire Bible that any such beating is being commanded or allowed. But perhaps this “if” is a merely fluke, an accident of grammar, an inference from the context, etc.
Not so. This is because the entire context of the entire chapter is the laying out of hypothetical scenarios and their litigious consequences. The chapter is premised by the phrase, “Now these are the judgments which you shall set before them” and proceeds in an “if this then that” manner: if someone does this the consequence is that. Stating that “if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod…” is an approbation is tantamount to claiming that if the law of the USA states, “If one person beats another but does not kill them, then…” it would mean that the law of the USA commands people to beat one another just short of death.
As I stated, it is not so that the “if” in an incidental since the entire chapter is likewise understood; here is a sample:
And to reiterate, note the qualifiers, “If…If…If…if…If…If…If…If…if…if…If…if…If…if…If…if…If…if…If…If…if
This was a clarification and rebuttal to your misunderstanding of the text. IF you wish to read more into it please indulge yourself
http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles/does-god-command-you-beat-your-slaves
I can find more to ensure your wrong in your view about slavery, but.. im doubting it really matters to you, your mind is already made up.
It is written by men inspired by God. That does not either increase or decrease its validity
On the contrary it led to people being healed, saved from their sins, and shown a better way of life by trying to live a life like Christ.
Its not my intention to berate you in anyway or make it seem like you dont have a heart of Goodness. By the hardening of the heart I am saying that people harden their hearts by turning away from God and rejecting him. That is the type of heart hardening I am referring to.
I am glad you would give the shirt off your back, a great moral quality taught by Jesus.
I agree a group of men, and thats it. Men who took ALL information from all sources to ensure the validity of recorded documents and make sure they are authentic and show history as it occured. Textual Criticism is believe is the word. The documents of Biblical history went through great Scrutiny to ensure the right and exact facts were recorded and that any information that was unsupported or not related were discarded.
Jesus was referred to extra biblical . Why would 12th century monks need or want to add information. DO you realize that any such changes to history would have come under immense scrutiny and rejected, therefor it would not have made it this far. There is no benefit to monks or anyone to have Jesus written about extra biblical wise, so why would they make stuff up , and not just make sure everything is copied like it was ?
The bible itself is enough proof. Why would you discount the life accounts of the writers of the bible ? You werent there, you have no right , nor evidence, no argument to debate the validness of the writers of the bible and their accounts of what they seen. You were not there, they were.
We all have faith. I wont say all scientists because there are many great present and past scientists who believed in God, including most of our founders of science . They didnt seem to have issues with their belief in God.
Saying we have a Good idea is no different from me saying we have a Good idea with the bible..
Talking snakes... once again we were not there. The serpent could had been anything, any shape any size..
Too claim the universe came into being to be is not a theory, since it was not witnessed, nor have we seen it, or able to test it.
I dont mind talking about Evolution, I enjoy that as well. Im sure your like most who think we all life came from non life, simple cells to complex, and over time all kinds of things happened and the Goo to human nonsense starts.
You bring nothing new to the table that i have not debated with people for the last 20 years.
What you allow, you condone.
Where does it say "Thou shalt not rape"? I can give you plenty of verse that says to keep the virgins for yourself after killing everyone else in a town you attack. What are the virgins for and do you think that they would want to sleep with you after you murdered everyone they knew?
The passages referring to what jesus may have said refer to keeping the old laws. Thou shalt not murder is intended for those in the tribe. Read Leviticus or Deuteronomy some time.
No, it's not. I can go to the grocery store and find documentation on the tooth fairy, I can find first hand accounts from children that have had their teeth paid for covering both the prophecy and the coming true part.
There is as much evidence for jesus as there is the tooth fairy, but that is another conversation.
That you have to really get into semantics to reconcile this is amazing. Contrast this if you are having a problem. IE Do not take slaves, Do not beat your slaves.
Instead you have to dissect the word "if" like Bill Clinton trying to explain his tryst. If you go extra-bibical and look at how slaves were treated during that time and in the geographic location the ugly reality is that slaves were treated worse than during the south.
Your attempts to tease out verbiage to support a conclusion that is not supported anywhere, including in the bible is only self delusion.
That's what laws are, no?
I have read into it and outside of the bible as well to ensure that what I understand is the case.
Listen, these were people who used to bury their first born in post holes so god wouldn't knock their house down. That's the level of ignorance you are trying to argue for.
I would suggest that it is perhaps you that is misunderstanding the verse.
So does that mean you admit that it's not real is in the realm of possibility? You really gave a very cagey answer avoiding the question.
I'll restate: To have an open mind, one would have to consider that the religion was completely false and man made. Are you willing to admit that your religion could be false thus showing you do have an open mind?
In order to support this, you need to resort to the old testament. You *have* to believe in talking snakes,magic trees, and rib women.
If you do not, then eve would have never been convinced by the talking snake, eaten from the magic tree, hence setting off this "sin" that jesus died for. Without that, you got nothing for him to be a human sacrifice for.
Nor is it my intention to berate you either. I'm simply being critical of assertions made by a religion. Every cult makes the distinction you do. Unbelievers are somehow lost, misled, or have some other defect.
Jesus was referred to in two forgeries that any scholar worth their salt and integrity would agree.
There are also no originals to compare so that leaves us having to take on authority from someone fully vested in the religious doctrine.
Why would a monk want to write to substantiate his beliefs? Same reason you are I would suppose. Is that unreasonable?
Why would they want to show that extra biblical sources corroborate their story about the bible? Are you really typing that with a straight face?
No, it's not.
Who wrote the bible? The passages in old testament are unsigned and the names given to them are the names mentioned. I'm not debating the validity of the writers of the bible, because, no one. Not a single person, can truly identify who they actually are.
You were not there either. You cannot prove that the heiroglyphics in the pyramids aren't first hand accounts. Or the nordic stones telling the stories of Odin aren't first hand accounts.
Where does that get us? How do we derive which of those accounts are actually true?
This is true. Newton was very religious. That's why we understand the laws of gravity but have no idea how it works. He attributed that to god.
So, because he did that, we lost 400 years of research and ideas behind it. I won't even get into galileo.
I don't "think" I understand the science behind it.
Every chemical in your body can be found anywhere in the universe. There is nothing unique about you chemically compared to any other living thing.
I find it amazing that it can be dismissed, out of hand, as being nonsense, but talking snakes, rib women, unicorns, burning bushes and such accepted without question.
Think about that.
You bring nothing new to the table that i have not debated with people for the last 20 years.
And it was condoned ? God approved of a woman being raped ? Once again. , SHow me.
Sorry that doesnt make much of an argument for rebuttal. You have different men writing different accounts of their time with Jesus, and then a man who never even seen Jesus, was a killer of the jews himself, and yet had a change of heart and God called on him .. Its amazing what God can do .
Not so, there is no indication here in the text that God is condoning or implying that a person is to beat their slave, just the repercussions IF a man beats his slave.
What I am saying is, is that God does indeed influence people. He can talk to us in prayer, in our dreams and visions. Why does God talk to some and not to other ? I dont know, because I am not God, but I can tell you this, IF you had a mind like God, and knew everything that can happen, then you would know why he talks to some and not others. Why some are healed, and not others, why prayers are answered and not others.
I have been there already. I have been an atheist and agnostic. I am constantly playing devils advocate with the pastor of my mothers church, whom I am friends with. He also is a professor at a great University.
I always challenge him, and try to stump him on some things that dont even seem like they have an answer to. Its amazing when you talk to someone who is very proficient in Theology and apologetics.
Why do you need to classify the tree as a Magic tree ? Did you see it perform Magic to categorize it into the realm of Magic ? It was just a tree that bore fruit, that God said not to eat from. If anything its the perfect symbol to show that we do in fact have free will.
Had we been some drones or programmed to do what God said all the time, then the fruit would have never been eaten. But why would God make beings that could not freely love him ? To freely love you have to be able to freely not love. To obey and disobey, all this this text is a Good lesson for us to learn about how much free will is about the ability to chose, and to love..
I never felt misled during my atheist years. God gave me a desire to want to know him, to want to know how I got here. There is nothing else out there that has ever satisfied that question. And even when i finally turned to religion, how do I know I got the right one. Because lets just say for a moment, God does exist, and there is only one real God, then which is it ? How can we know its not Allah, or sheeva, or some greek God, Bhudda ect ect ..
It took many years of reading and comparing religions. But like any court case, when you build a case, you collect evidence and make a case. There are flaws in the false religions, any of them can be tested and found our to be false Gods, only one of them can be held true, and after many years of scrutiny and studying, you come to your conclusions. Mine rested with the God of the Bible, if I am wrong, I am wrong, and thats the way it will be. But in my mind, from my best research, I know I am not wrong, and the God of the bible is who he says he is.
Why would he ? The arguments I hear are that monks added text and words.. I dont think people today are aware how in depth copying of original text and documents were.
Even if a Monk did in fact added in Jesus into some extra biblical record, then that record would fall under great scrutiny. Its no different than today if we write something false about someone or history it will be hit head on with opposition to show its validity.
Some of it was based off of writing style, or say a disciple who talks about a specific place or thing, and we have archeological findings to back that up. YOu would really have to ask a theologian who is specialized in History of the bible. There is plenty of information on the net about authors of the bible and why the books were written by whom ever..
Well of course :D If God is the common creator then why would anything be exclusive here on the earth and not every where else. I understand the concept of Evolution too, we do see species changing to adapt to their environment, but they are still the same species. They never evolved into an entirely new species. That is my point where science can not show this long process of Goo out of no where to human beings today.
The more they refuse to adapt to the changing times, the more irrelevant they become. Here's to continued years of the dwindling number of self-described Catholics. I only hope that in my lifetime, I live to see the Vatican in flames.
God is unchanging and he has never requested that we make him into our image -- we were made in his image and we are supposed to attempt to live our lives accordingly. The church does not need to remake itself based upon social demands, which are suspect; society should remake itself in God's image. Abortion takes the life of an unborn person. Even when necessary, it is always the cause for great sadness. The church will never support abortion. When the Vatican errupts in flames, I think you will know that bad times are a' comin'. I think that the good Lord watches us and cries.
ItsAbout Time, tell your ELECTED OFFICIALS to stop shoving religious beliefs down your throats - leave the churches alone. No, we are NOT all 100% equal, according to your way of thinking. Those of us that still believe in God, and ALL his teachings are lesser beings than you who want a secular life. You call us "dinosaurs", with old ways of thinking. If our churches become smaller, we'll just have to pray harder. I will never tell you that you must believe what I believe, so you ought to do the same. You people have all your anger misdirected - you're getting mad at Christians, when you should be getting mad at your politicians. THEY'RE the ones making the rules, not us.
That's nice. prove it!
Really? Which god would that be? There are thousands to choose from. Cthulu might a fun one to remake.
Which is why the church becomes more and more irrelevant.
And yet he doesn't do a thing.
We do, at the voting polls.
You're free to believe whatever you want. But your beliefs end where mine or my rights (and the law) begin.
And I'll bet you support them though.
You're right, if you haven't figured out that a theocracy is a bad idea, in a country that promotes freedom of religion. Then you most certainly are a lesser being, on the same level as a sheep.
Faith in the biblical God is your unalienable right. To choose another option other than religious belief or that religious belief is also protected under the Bill of Rights. To consider that having different views requires one to give up theirs to appease the other is not supported by law. The only 'control' you possess is the control over your own life, imperfectly, not over others - no matter how much you want to 'make' others do what you want them to do, think what you want them to think and act how you would want them to act. If you deny God, fine. If you embrace God, fine. However, morality does have a role in the actions of people and the source of such foundational morality is found where?
Sadly, I think that most American politicians who profess to be Catholic would (and should) be excommunicated by the Church. Biden and Pelosi would be a good start.
@B-Murphy-only someone evil would say something like that.
Kanic, I definitely agree!
TAM, the church always changes, if not they'd still be killing Jews, burning protestants and any other "heathen, slavery would still be legal and women would have no rights.
Bravo re: seeing the Vatican in flames. As a recovering Catholic I find it daunting to forgive the ignorance, bias, lack of sophistication, and good old boys club called the holy catholic church. I am tired of the church adhering to their perception of what God has said. The golden rule is a panacea in thinking spiritually. There is so much we do not know...is homosexuality a biological phenomena...does something go haywire in the uterus and wire gay people in a different way? No one knows, so why not suspend judgment, hate, why the prejudice, why rejection of something that is different? That's not Godly, that's not my God therefore I can no longer support the church and its fate is its own undoing. The church lives in opulant splender and yet poverty is deep on our planet. Francisco is a Jesuit, he's taken a vow of povery, can we assume that the riches of the Vatican will be sold so that poor people can eat, have medical care? Don't bet the ranch...we don't have to rack our brains, folks, the vatican is like the GOP, anti gay, anti poor anti woman, anti social programs and pro the good old boys who want the status quo even when that includes raping children and lying about it, hiding facts, denying equal rights, etc. Come on...Pope Benedict resigned because something is about to hit the fan...its the catholic churches way...I am a senior citizen and I have seen the sneaky, money oriented, denial of the church too long...may it burn soon and very bright!
"Really? Which god would that be? There are thousands to choose from. Cthulu might a fun one to remake."
In reality, that would be the whole population of this Earth. Why? Because each has their own thought of what God would look like, and be like. So to say society should remake itself in Gods image would be an impossible task, unless, everyone was of one mind.
" 'Status quo' leader: "
Gee, what a surprise. No, not really. Different Pope, same mindset, nothing new here. At the rate the church is falling, it wouldn't be much of a surprise if this Pope finishes the job of helping it hit the ground.
@Murphy; I don't necessarily agree with the church in issues where the Pope's have created parts of religious interpretation and created portions of the religion but that is limited to the gray areas where man made the decisions not what is clear in the bible, or represented in the 10 commandments I keep my personnel faith in line with what I know to be in line with them, so where I get confused is where people think that religion needs to conform to man, if that is the case then why bother? I left the Catholic religion because I did not think it was right but I did not turn my back on God, I am far from perfect but I do try to live my life in accordance to the 10 commandments, changing the teachings of those simple rules will not make the world a better place to live and will not improve on religion, if you change the basic fundamentals then just don't bother with religion at all, I'll give you that so give me the right to believe the way I interpret them to be.
its not about religion conforming to man but man understanding the basic teachings of God. if you change that then you defeat the cause, if there is a Devil then that is what the Devil wants and you fall right into his trap. they made a bet the wages are your souls if God wins you win and if Satan wins you lose is that simple enough for you to understand. God gave us a lifestyle a system with a nucleus family built around a man and a woman to form a family structure to raise the children to do the same, and for the most part it worked till recently now that is falling apart because we no longer believe instead people just do as they please when they please, they still want religion but only if it gives them the right to do as they want some religions conform to the demands of people that want to do as they please! whats the point? is it for money, membership, is it for teaching the word? how can that be if you keep changing what you teach, its pointless why bother. you say the church has to conform to man and I thought it was about man learning the way God wants us to behave. if you don't like it you are free to not associate with it you are free to choose, but I question any change of the basics. I disagree with the Catholic Church and its greed and corruption they need to fix that but you can't change the basics to fit your mold. you have to leave Gods part alone. Example; the church needs to change its stand on Gay Marriage, what did god say about same sex relationships? Its a abomination! now if the church was to give in on that issue then it would be turning its face from God. on the question of Priest getting married why not God never said they could not it was a Pope that decided that so that rule could be changed, it is mans rule not Gods. remember any person that causes another person to sin would be better off if they were never borne, so be careful.
@D-Buck - I never said Catholicism should die, simply the Vatican and what it represents. Absurdly gross excess, lavished upon men who were never supposed to be praised in such fashion. Disgusting men of power, who use said power to help pedophiles escape justice. Millions murdered throughout history for having a different faith. The list goes on and on about the ills of the Catholic arch-diocese. And if nothing else, the fact that the Vatican attempted to 'cow' that American nuns group, only confirms that leveling the Vatican would do the world a great deal of good.
Catholicism at it's heart, is a great thing, just like most religions. But, you don't need a massive corporate hierarchy for the Catholic faith to survive. You simply need people who believe in it. Those who must have the Vatican, as a symbol of their faith, are a pathetic group of sheep.
Kanic: No no no, an evil person would say he hoped every Cardinal and the Pope were locked inside the Vatican, as it were burning. Catholicism's survival doesn't require the Vatican to be there. It's existence, and the lavish lifestyle of excess that the Church hierarchy shower themselves in, stands in stark contrast to Christs teachings.
Sorry, Gordy, but if enough believers get together they are allowed to influence government with law making that emulates their biblical beliefs. You seem to think that we cannot put into law or influence our laws from a Christian perspective. That is totally wrong and was NEVER what the constitution and the separation clause was meant to be. You could not be more wrong.
@Davsie: Oh sure you can try to interject religious beliefs into law, but it should fold like the French under scrutiny by the Supreme Court. If not, the rest of the country should do everything legally or illegally to tear it down. It has no place in this country. You are free to practice your religion, and uphold your faith in your own personal life, but putting those beliefs into a position where they force others to adhere to those same tenets is absolutely not, ok. How would Catholics feel if they had to adhere to Sharia law? Or Buddhism? Or Judaism?
@DamYou: I have said it in public, and it won't be the last time either.
There are two incontrovertible truths..... there is a God.... and I'm not Him.....
One day, you will stand before God in judgement... and on that day, YOU will know that there is a God and you never knew Him.....
@Tam123: The Good Lord should be crying, it should be looking at the hypocritical and disgusting behavior of its representatives here on Earth, and just chomping at the bit for them to die so justice can be served.
@Steve: Actually, the existence of God is quite controvertible. Because you can't prove it exists.
B Murphy,
Belief in a Supreme Being is a personal choice and does not require any scientific proof.
@Silverton: Maybe for you, but for the rest of us, it does. Sorry, but just because you believe it, doesn't make it fact.
That's right, you cannot! The Constitution forbids it! Any law passed based on any religious ideology can be challenged and struck down as unconstitutional.
By all means, do tell me what you think the separation of church and state is meant to be!
Every legal scholar, right down to a first year law student, will agree with me.
But without proof, any claim for a supreme being can be summarily dismissed. Belief doesn't equal fact!
@Silverton - People used to believe the world was flat also, and that the Earth was the center of the Universe. Beliefs don't mean squat, when faced with fact.
Our supreme court Justices of the past didnt have issues with people believing in God. Prayer being performed, references to Christianity by John jay. If you look at our supreme court and how things were run back then and compare it to say the past 50 years or so, it is a total clash. God wasnt a taboo subject, our leaders were influenced by their belief in God. Our declaration declares it, our constitution refers to year of our lord, and has a first ammendment to allow us to freely speak and worship God with out being hassled by all these liberal atheistic reformists today.
Tear down religion ? Why would you go against our founding fathers ? The Majority of them stood behind their faith. People fail to realize there is a huge difference between forcing religion, or making a state religion official, and say a person who is a believer in office to look for divine guidance and seek out divine wisdom from God. Just look at Ben Franklin as a great example. Here at the COnvention they are all arguing, cant find answers, deadlock, and ole Ben says, lets pray to God for wisdom ( paraphrased ) but why would our fathers mention God, or reference to God or make our laws influenced by God if they wanted God outlawed ? It makes no sense what so ever.
Like so many others on here that I have had to put on ignore, because their ignorance of our history makes me sick to my stomach. I cant stand to see our Judeo Christian Foundation being revised by this liberal atheistic movement.
I wish I could see to americas , one full of nothing but atheists leaders and all, then see a nation that isnt afraid to mention God and lives by Gods moral standards, and leadership from Men who look to god for wisdom and absolute authority. I would love to see which America would prosper.
There is no such thing separation of Church and state, its said no where in any of our main documents and clearly butchered by radicals who cling to Jefferson when he was addressing the Danbury Baptists.
We are to be able to freely practice our faith any where, at any time. There should be no law stating we have to do it in private. Our fathers surely didnt, they expressed themselves quite well in public, so why cant we >?
Our fathers didnt have these issues we do today with so much diversity and every other nation coming here and trying to change our america to suit their needs. Funny you mention Sharia law, because out in I think Oklahoma , muslims were trying to do such. They are coming here and getting educated in our judicial system and learning all the loopholes and ways around laws. Its only a matter of time before we collapse from the inside. IM sorry , as great as america is, for it to survive it needs to stay American. We can have diverse people living here, but we cant all get along and expect every one to conform to everyones lifestyle, it will clash. It will always clash period. Making someone happy , makes someone else unhappy. Giving rights to some, takes rights from others. You cant please everyone, or make everyone happy. Somebody always has to suffer. This is America, live by what it has set before us.. IN God we trust, How about our pledge to our country we used to say, oh how we turn away from our One nation , under God.
Abortion will remain legal, and same sex marriage will become legal soon enough. And the Pope wont be able to do a thing about it. His approval isn't needed.
There maybe 1.2 billion Catholics. But they don't make the rules for the rest of us. And they better hope they never do, because it will mean someone else can do the same to them. Freedom goes both ways.
The better statistic is the one that presents the true fact that the majority of Catholic Women Use Birth Control in one form or another, and those same women provide birth control for their teenage daughters. Common sense is a fact that the Catholic Bishops cannot explain away.
What about justice for the unborn child? We are a pathetic selfish lot. Yes, Justice goes both ways......
The unborn does not have rights and certainly none which override the rights and autonomy of the mother in question.
In response to the comment
Remember this as we Catholics fight Mr. Obabma as he attempts to force us to allow this is our Hospitals, businesses etc. you already assume our beliefs are wrong becuase they are not yours
MoreJustice
Abortion will remain legal, and same sex marriage will become legal soon enough. And the Pope wont be able to do a thing about it. His approval isn't needed.
There maybe 1.2 billion Catholics. But they don't make the rules for the rest of us. And they better hope they never do, because it will mean someone else can do the same to them. Freedom goes both ways.
Mom of 4, if every couple did as you have done it would doubled the population of the earth, 7 billion to 14 billion. In the real world the earth cannot support that many people without mass starvation. In doing so you're forcing your archaic beliefs on the rest of us. You can believe in a fairy tale god (or gods e.g. the hole trinity), but when your practices impact the rest of us then you're imposing your religious beliefs on us.
Let me ask you this Mom of 4. Do you believe that In vitro fertilization is good? Do you believe that artificial insemination is OK? Do you believe that man should be able to create life where it otherwise could or would not be created.
In the Pro-Life view of things, life is created at conception where the sperm meets the egg. So in each case that In vitro does not take, a life is aborted or up to 8 in some cases. You know that the egg is fertilized and injected into the womb right? So why can man play god to create life where it otherwise would not have been created, but cannot take life when it may be hazardous? It does not make sense for any person that has the ability to reason outside of emotion.
Pro-Life to me = Hypocrite.
God must create life and take life so if man wants to play God he must be burdened with an equal share.
Terry, just because you think that most of us Roman Catholic women have a candy dish of oral contraceptives on our coffee tables, that does not mean that the Church should bend to the fact that these people have chosen to ignore the teachings of the Church. Mother Theresa was once asked what should be the first thing to change in the Church. Basically, she said "you and I."
@Rick: Too many of you have listened to the zero population propaganda. Look up birth dearth as well as the documentaries: Demographic Winter and Demography as Destiny.
@Mom of 4: God bless you and your children. The culture of death doesn't get it. I guess they never will.
Gays and Lesbians don't make the rules for everyone else either. They should stop forcing THEIR beliefs on other people.
BG,
fixed it for you :) now it rings completely true :)
@BG: Let me know when anything any Gay or Lesbian does forces you to have anal sex, or if you're female, have sexual relations with a woman. If that were ever to happen, I'd be fully on board with fighting against them. However, since they simply want equal rights under the law, which the Constitution of the United States and Declaration of Independence guarantee, your argument is completely hollow and lacks any facts based in reality.
Think for a moment about the laws right now...
.....they can NEVER be cured, it's in their nature
.....they are born that way, they cannot change
.....we have to be tolerant of each person's sexual preference
.....what happens behind closed doors is none of anyone else's business
.....the law protects ALL people
What happens when this starts being applied to pedophiles?
@Steve: You forget that pedophilia is illegal because children are incapable of providing informed consent (beyond the fact that it's morally reprehensible). I know you people love to use this in your 'slippery slope' bullet point. But, it's simply a way of deflecting logical debate, with with asinine scare tactics, typical of religious zealots. Though, one would wonder why there are so many pedophile priests, if the clergy were truly that morale. Not to mention droves of Church figures willing to circumvent the law to whisk them away and cover up any wrong doing. Ya'll didn't care about children then, why all of a sudden start now? Oh, because the only gays you want are the priest molesting children. Gotcha.
Likewise with bestiality, animals cannot give informed consent, therefore, it's not even worthy of debate. But, keep thinking it is, because it really only drives home the point that you and those like you have no real reason to object, other than hate and bigotry.
B Murphy, Who decided pedophilia was morally reprehensible? You? Society? Others feel that sodomy is morally reprehensible. Who decides? Each household? The feelings of the majority? Who decides?
@notforhire: Setting aside the morally reprehensible, I notice you completely ignored the whole informed consent thing. Typical.
I guess you need more than 1 reason for pedophilia to be made illegal. Sounds like you have all the makings of a Cardinal.
I'm still trying to figure out this whole pope thing? I just don't get it. Why must religion dominate people's lives? So strange.
Well, to each their own, I guess!
I agree with 'to each their own' until those very people attempt to enforce it on others.
Stinkleton, agreed.
Also, the photo of whoever that is kissing a foot is beyond disgusting.
Wow MJ, you sure are enlightened. The washing and kissing of feet is a sign of humility and hardly "beyond disgusting"!
Maybe you should try a little humility yourself.
Stinkleton only likes Democracy when people agree with him.
MJ, Jesus kissed and washed the feet of his Apostles, lepers, etc.
Then jesus had a nasty ass mouth.
Where do you get that from, Mike?
I actually support alot of ideas that I don't personally agree with because they DON'T AFFECT MY LIFE.
It sounds like it's going to be "more of the same."
Pedos (for both sexes), hatred towards same-sex individuals, women, and people who aren't white? Yep, sounds like the Catholic church.
Not hardly MJ - there are thousands of black, mexican, all races of Catholics. Educated yourself. Mexico is probably about 80% Catholic!
The Church will not change unless their views directly affect their bottom line, profit.
The church used to be adamant about those who were divorced & who committed pre-marital s ex ( Living in sin). Those people were not made to feel welcome & certainly could not receive communion. However, once the divorce rate sky rocketed in the 70's & people were living together without the benefit marriage, the church realized they were turning away too many, to the point it effected tything/donations. SoThey eventually turned the other cheek & really stopped excluding and condeming those "sins".
Until contraception, abortion & gay equality start effecting their profit, nothing will change.
So you bring up the lies that Liberals are non-working, when it is obvious that the Red states, those bastions of conservatism, are being supported by the Blue states, those places here no one works, except to support the Red states.
Michael-267231, I think your right.
Look here at the lies the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation put out in the article:
***** ""For decades the Catholic hierarchy has been in need of desperate reform. In his life, Jesus condemned gays zero times. In Pope Benedict's short time in the papacy, he made a priority of condemning gay people routinely," the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation said in a statement." *****
First of all, Christians don't "condemn" people. Just like the Bible, Christians should condemn actions. We don't condemn homosexuals (as people). We condemn their homosexual practices as sin.
If gays want to intertwine their practices with their identity as human beings and then call themselves condemned then that's on them.
Secondly, Jesus condemned homosexual practice throughout the Bible. Jesus called homosexual behavior a sin from the beginning of the Bible to the end. Most liberals don't realize that Jesus is the eternal WORD and as God He inspired the Bible from beginning to end by His Holy Spirit. Abraham stood before one of three men in Genesis, one who was Jesus but not by that name, who came to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for the sin of homosexuality. It was Jesus as presented as LORD, without using the name Jesus, who gave to Moses the Law condemning homosexual behavior in Leviticus 18. Moreover, Jesus by His Spirit inspired Paul to write against homosexual behavior in Romans 1 and in 1 Corinthians 6. And lastly, Jesus Christ spoke against any kind of sexual sin in Revelations 22 by saying that all who practice any unrepentant sexual sins were dogs who would be placed eternally outside the New Jerusalem.
Simply put, Jesus did not become God only in the New Testament where liberals exclaim He never condemned homosexuality. Real Christians know He was eternally God in the past, till now, and will always be God in the future in the face of all of what Jesus calls sin in the the Bible from page 1 to the last page.
Jesus Christ is greater than any lie made by any liberal or the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation no matter what they say.
Jesus by His Spirit inspired Paul to write against homosexual behavior in Romans 1 and in 1 Corinthians 6.
How do you know this? How do you know that Paul was "spoken to" by Jesus which inspired him to write those words? Growing up we had a man in town who used to walk up & down the center of town, talking to himself, claiming God would talk to him all day. Do you consider him a modern day prophet? If so, you can go see him in the mental institution where he was ultimatley committed.
What if I told you the Holy Spirit "inspired" me to write how God has no issue with sexuality? Would you then start following my writings? I can offer no more proof than Paul could.
The fact is, if this was such an abomination to such a large degree, Jesus would have probably said something, at least once, during his 30+ years on this earth.
CD11,
You miss the point completely. Jesus did not have to talk about homosexually to his fellow Jews because they all were under the Law of Moses at the time and knew completely from childhood what every word of the Law said and its implications.
The Jews knew the penalty for homosexual practice was stoning the violator to death. All thinking concerning the practice was already understood. Nothing more was to be said.
Also, Jesus himself stated in Matthew 5:17 to the Jewish religious leaders, "Do you think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets: I have NOT come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
See, Jesus agreed with the Law and why not, the Law really was His Law given to Moses in the first place.
Jesus main disagreement with the Jewish leaders was their merciless handling of Jews though distorting the Law.
The New Testament is Jesus giving people a chance to live under God's Grace and not under the Law without God's help (His Grace).
Jesus gave His 'thumbs down' in the Old Testament for unrepentant homosexual practice by destroying Sodom and Gomorrah. Notice I did not say Jesus gave thumbs down to people. I said He gave thumbs down to sinful homosexual practice (actions, deeds). The Sodomites did not want to give up the practices and by attaching themselves to the practice caused their own destruction.
God will never condemn people for being human. He will condemn practices He calls sinful.
we decide if we want to attach ourselves to sinful practices.
****The cannon of scripture is now close. Meaning there is nothing more to be added or subtracted from the Bible.
Thus, I would not listen to you CD11 no matter what you said god told you. You could not pay me to believe you. Jesus will not change his mind about what He calls sin just because a human like yourself has changed your mind about what is sinful.
If God were to go back on His Word then He ceases to be God.
Jesus is God of the Bible from the beginning to the end.
CD11, your position that unless Jesus specifically spoke of a issue in the Gospels, then the issue does not count is false.
Jesus gave credence to the Law and Prophets in Mathew 5:17. Therefore, Jesus gave credence to the stoning of homosexual violators of the Law.
David,
Just so you know some theologians believe the real sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was greed.....there are also passages in the bible that says if a child disobeys his mother that child should be put to death...do we intrepret that literally? The fact that homosexuality dates back to biblical times is a fact.
The Bible was interpreted by mortal men...not God.
I am catholic, I have a gay son. He came to church with me on Christmas Eve for Mass and stood in Church proud to be who he is....who in my belief the Lord created and in my belief the Lord was happy to have him there.
Show a little of what you were taught in catholic school..."compassion".
I would expect as much change from the Catholic Church as I would expect the Bible to change.
So the new guy wears dresses too...hates gays and thinks they are ruining god's plan....and we should like this clown? So far, according to all the things I've read and heard, that thinking makes HIM the one who's ruining god's plan.
Are you Catholic? If not - why does it even concern you???
Truman, there is such a thing as loving the sinner and condemning the sin. In fact, the Church teaches it. You can be a gay practicing Catholic, you just can't be a practicing gay while being a practicing Catholic. Which is more important? Your life on Earth or your afterlife?
Meara, the concept of "loving the sinner and condemning the sin" is a falsehood. The Roman Catholic church still does all it can to hate gays along with homosexuality, yet of the 613 laws G-D gave the children of Israel at Mount Sinai, the church feels that only one, ONLY ONE, is worth keeping - this one. Talk about hypocricy.
Meara:
"Loving the sinner and hating the sin" is horse@!$%#.
It presumes that being gay is a sin.
Who are you or anyone else to tell others that they have to be celibate?
It is none of your business.
live and let live
im sure he doesnt hate anyone . just doesn't approve of it we still love you
I'm not totally sure what you are referring to... but I don't want love (especially from him)... I want equality.
Hey MJ define equality
we all have the opportunity to do as we want where we want to be Catholic or Christian or atheist. But can a man give life? no and can a woman do it on her own? no some things are not a measure of equality but facts of our design whether you believe its from God or a rock.
im sure oral or anal was not in gods plan
Tom, unfortunately, you are part of what gives decent Christians a bad name. I'm not sure how old you are, but you are part of why religion is crumbling.
And, I hate to feed you, the troll, but:
The eating of fat is prohibited forever. (Lev 3:17)
You cannot round the corners of your beard or the hair on your temples. (Lev 19:27)
Witches should be killed. (Ex 22:18)
The congregation was to be a bastard free zone. The Bible was so dead set against bastards that their children, even to the tenth generation, could not enter the assembly of the Lord. (Duet 23:2) This is in keeping with God's principle of punishing children for the wrongdoings of their parents.
Handicapped people could not approach God. Their presence would profane his sanctuary. (Lev 21:16-23) This scripture single-handedly offends almost every category of handicapped persons you can name. The blind, lame, injured, hunchbacks and dwarfs are specifically named. If anyone is left out, the catchall phrase "anyone with a blemish" is thrown in to cover them. I guess in Israel, the handicapped parking stalls were at the far end of the parking lot.
Entrance into the assembly of the Lord was granted only to those with complete testicles. (Duet 23:1) Now, I will admit that keeping one's testicles in tact is a pursuit worthy of some attention, but I have to ask: What went on in the "assembly of the Lord" that required a complete and full set of testicles? And, since testicles are usually not on display, was there someone at the gate assigned to check?
Anyone working on the Sabbath is to be killed. (Ex 35:2) This law was to protect the sanctity of Sunday afternoon football. Unfortunately, any player that touched the ball would have to be killed after the game, because he had touched a dead pig. (Lev 11:7,8) That would certainly make it easier to play defense.
Menstruating women and everything they touch are unclean. The only cure for this uncleanness was for the priest to kill a couple of pigeons. (Lev 15:19-30) What could be more logical?
If a couple has sex during the woman's period, the two are to be cut off from their people. (Lev 20:18) Once again, how would anyone know that this had happened? The couple is obviously not going to tell. Maybe the genital inspector from the temple made house calls.
Women were officially second class citizens. They were considered possessions that were owned, (Prov 12:4) and were officially subordinate (1 Cor 14:33,34).
If a woman grabs a man's privates during a fight, her hand is to be cut off. (Duet 25:11,12) Now, is it really necessary to have this law on the books? You get the impression that the person who was writing the laws had recently experienced this and was still a little pissed off.
False prophets are to be killed by their own parents. (Zech 13:3)
Stubborn children were to be stoned, and the stoning was to be instigated by their parents. (Duet 21:18-21)
And whatever you do, don't ever, ever, ever, pee against the wall (1 Kings 16:11 KJV). OK, I know. The phrase "anyone who pees against the wall" is just a euphemism for men. I just couldn't resist this one.
I would guess that, if you are going to thump your Bible, you should thump all the parts and not just the ones you like. Right?
Great points by Toonguy below. It is puzzling to me how ignorant people are about the Catholic Church. It's not an issue of voting on what the Church should teach or what percentage believes one teaching against another. Truth is objective. Even if 99% of the world believed the opposite of what the Church taught, the Church would still teach it. If 99% of a math class got 2+2=4 wrong, would we change the answer to 5? We would not- Truth is objective, folks.
GLAAD rightly points out, "In his life, Jesus condemned gays zero times." It should have also put, "In his life, Jesus condoned gay marriage zero times." He spoke of marriage many times in the Gospels as being between one man and one woman.
MJ1986 – Wow. You really do know your old testament. In case you didn’t hear or read further, we are no longer under the Levitical law. Read Romans chapter 7. We are now under grace. The only “rules” that apply to the Gentiles are found in Acts 15:20. Abstain from idols, fornication, things strangled, and from blood. I also hope that religion crumbles - it is a relationship with Jesus that brings life. Best regards.
If the bible was so good they shouldnt of had to change it. 1000 years from now there will be an old, new, and "newer" testament so they can amend what they need to to fit their new views.
Jshulth - Your comment is absurd. In 1000 years?
notforhire -- Ok, you're going to have to help me with this one... I just read Romans 7 and would ask you to show me the language that invalidated Levitical law. But if that is truly the case, then doesn't that throw out the prohibition against homosexuality too?
@notforhire,
You must have missed these in bible class.
You know, a great many atheists have actually read this stuff. Reading the biblefully is actually the fastest way to become an atheist, I suggest you try it.
Even if you want to argue that you somehow the evil, vain, psychopathic god of the first bible is somehow now not the god in the second, you still have to contend with things like:
So according to god, not only should we kill gays, but kill anyone that is tolerant of gays. (Same Romans you said gives you this "grace").
Who in their right mind would approve of, let alone, worship someone or something that would do something like this?
So the guy went to keep the ark from falling and god laid the smack down on him for daring to do such a thing.
Funny thing about the ark. I read that if it were made the size and material as described, filled with crumbling sand and carried through the desert, it would act as a giant capacitor. So this may actually be a true story, except that instead of god killing the guy, it was static electricity.
Long story short, in order to make the bible even a slightly moral document, you would need to pretty much rip out Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Kings, Samual, Hosea, Jerimiah, Exodus, Chronicles, Romans, Isaiah, Ezekial, Judges, Acts, Joshua, Numbers. So that's like what? Half?
losghost, The Matthew scriptures you posted clearly state that Jesus came to fulfil the law which he did by his death and resurrection. By noting Romans, you have inadvertently described exactly what happens when people who quote scripture and use it on msn stories. They know the truth (head knowledge) but turn it into a lie and deny the power of it. Out of the desires of your heart, you are given the freedom to practise those ways. The "deserve death" refers to spiritual death (eternal seperation from God). You list alot of books from the old testament. Jesus came to make all things new (the new testament in his blood). So many good things to share concerning Jesus' ministry. Jesus has set us free from the curse of the law, death, and the grave. Go and don't do those things listed in Romans 1.
so what can the pope do specifically to satisfy you
If this pope was truly humble, he would laugh at the claim of infallibility and work to end the free money he takes through religious tax exemptions.
But as it is, the Church needs absolute authority and immense wealth to carry out its mission of obstructing human progress throughout the world. They'll never willingly relinquish what it takes to be called humble.
Agree with Atheist...
I live in an area where there are multi-million dollar churches, and the famous "Six Flags over Jesus". Quite frankly, it sickens me. Why can't that money (from wherever they get it) be used for good?
Just goes to show you, how many fools fill these mega buildings and pour their money into the coffers. Most of the churches around here are barely making it. Most of the money goes for needy causes not giving "preach" a rolls to drive.
Yes, the churches donate most of the money and it goes around the world, not just here in the US. If it were not for the Catholic churches, the hospitals that save lives would not exist, along with all the other organizations that are supported by the Catholic churches and organizations. The churches that Catholics attend are also paid for by the people who attend them. Our church was just renovated after years of it deteriorating and falling literally apart and no one paid for that except the parishoners. All the parishoners were asked to give a little every month and payments were set up for those who agreed to do so and the repairs will be paid for in less than 5 years and this is in addition to the money we give at every mass that goes to help the poor all the world. Be careful what you say about Catholics and their churches, because they are the ones who give the most because they have taught that is what God wants of them. There would be a lot of organizations and hospitals in a heap of trouble if the Catholics would stop supporting them.
...this is the perfect example of denial: (D)on't (E)ven k(N)ow (I)'m (L)ying...the Vatican is filthy rich and it spends money on the opulance it lives within. The Church spends a small portion of its wealth on helping the poor. It is a for profit corporation hiding out as a spiritual organization and yet it peddles hate, bigotory, anti-female doctrine, gay bashing, no contraception in an over populated world destined to self destruct if something isn't done about population control. The church is in denial, Catholics are in denial and America is in denial just to name a few. We have buried our heads in the sand and refuse to be enlighted by SCIENCE. This is not the world of 1000 years ago. Man has corrupted the planet and humanity. The new pope, he's taken a vow of poverty, so we will know very soon if he intends to restore that vow of poverty to the church. Artifacts can go on sale or be used to raise money to right the injustices against those who are poor and ill. No more opulance for the church, Walk the walk, you liars, child molesters and abducators. If you refuse to walk the walk, your hate and ignorance will destroy your not so holy roman empire. - from a former catholic who refuses to support the church with one thin dime until such time it WALKS THE WALK.
75% of catholics are non white. and i dont see where the us government is run by the church . you have come a long way in your struggle . but now im not sure where you are going. i dont agree with all religions but i also believe they have the right to choose as you do . as for the laws they are moving in your direction every day .
what part of no pope in the Catholic Church ever, not then, not today, not ever, would "back abortion or gay life style" does the secular world not understand???? The mere asking of the question screams that you don't have ANY understanding of the Catholic Church. To make this question is literally the same thing as saying the Catholic Church (under ANY pope, has decided not to back murder and ungodly acts of sexual acts. People it's not only not ever going to happen - it CAN'T happen. Neither can female priests. I understand that you people don't understand, but what you need to jut accept is that it isn't even an option. If you can't understand that Truth can't be anything other than what it is, then you will never get it. It isn't a matter of what some people want. It isn't about looking at the world through the Americana window of self expediency and getting whatever one thinks is one's right through the fast food window, it's about what God wants. So, please stop spinning your wheels on such things and you won't be disappointed that you can't have something that is not yours or mine to receive.
Well put.
First off, we're a secular nation, period... At times, it doesn't seem that way, but we are.
Also, you're assuming everyone believes in a god. Fail, fail, fail.
W h 's god? Yours?
Toonguy....you are so wrong about the Catholic Church....the catholic church has made up it's own rules. I can attest to that. At one time I was looking at the Catholic Church until they told me that I would have to become Catholic to be baptised. Where does it say anywhere in the bible that you must become a catholic to be baptized in the name of God. The Catholic Church has hoards of money and troves of treasures that are never seen by anyone, they keep them locked up and only a handful of people ever get to see them....Why not open a museum and charge admission and then give that money to charity....seems like the Catholic Church wants to run it's religion however it wants too.
Uhh Duder77--you can go get baptized in another religion like the Baptist, Episcopal, etc. They baptise people into their religion and you have to be of their religion to be be baptised as such also. If you want to be baptised as a Catholic, then yes you have to be Catholic. When you are being baptized, you are being baptised as a Catholic, it is the 1st sacrament you make as a Catholic. then you later go on to be confirmed, that is the day you are accepting Catholic faith and are accepting to live the life of a Catholic. If you do not accept the Catholic teaching, then you do not have to confirm and you can leave the faith and go believe in your own made up beliefs.
Kanic-You really need to stop posting...Have to be a "this", or have to be a "that" to get baptized? I thought that we are all children of God and that there is only one God. If this is so, why the labels? And why can't I offer myself to God in any building and be baptized in His name?
MJ1986 - In 1789, newly inaugurated President, George Washington, gave a prophetic warning at Federal Hall in New York City. He declared that America’s prosperity and protection were dependent upon its adherence to God. Later, the political leaders of this young nation gathered at St. Paul’s Chapel to commit the nation’s future to God’s purposes. Our first leaders committed our nation to God! Christian nation!
mj im not gonna fight with you i know there are things written that are not right . i just try to do the right things in life i have no opinion how others live. i try to live my life by the ten commandments im by no means a perfect catholic . or person for that matter so im not here to judge.
Ummm, ok.
What a ridiculous headline! Catholics are not looking for approval for abortion or same sex marriage. We would like to go back to when priests did marry, we would like to see women become priests. The writer who said that pro-life advocates also want to reduce services to women and children is assuming all pro-life are conservative republicans. I am a pro-life Catholic Democrat, as are many of my friends. Please do not assume if you are pro-life you must be republican.
@momx4at35: Excuse me? I was a democrat for 30 years but left that party because they became a militant pro-abortion party. As a medical professional, abortion conflicts with the oath I took. So I left the party. I am now a republican and I can tell you that republican policies are more family friendly than dems as the dems policies enslave people, purposefully I might add. Just look at what the so called "war on poverty" has done to the black family, for example. I too am a Catholic. How any Catholic who really understands what the democrat party stands for can stay a democrat is baffling to me. They are the party of pro-death policies, of forcing people of faith to fund abortion, etc. The HHS Mandate is just the latest fascist tyranny of that party. You obviously have been one of those people who has been duped by the democrat party and its propanda machine, the mainstream media.
Gee...the Pope is not expected to change Catholicism or alter the Bible to suit the demands of the secular and immoral crowd? Really? What a shocker! Sarcasm aside, why would that even be a question? I'm not even Catholic, but I respect that the Catholic Church has shrugged off the calls for it to "go in a new direction" to suit those who don't like to be told that they are sinning. The only way this article could be considered news is if he had announced that he WOULD change things--which he most certainly should not and apparently does not plan to do.
Miranda Leitsinger's stories all seem to have a common thread: pushing the gay agenda and subverting traditional values and standards. That makes her an activist, not a journalist. NBC really ought to do something about getting JOURNALISTS and publishing NEWS, not propaganda pieces masquerading as news.
LOL. Gay agenda? Ughhh... People are going to look back in 10, 20, 30 years and say "WTF?" Same as we say today about slavery and interracial marriage.
When it comes to the gay-lesbian stance from the RCC's bishops/cardinals, "me thinks they protest too much!"
I am so glad that I'm Wiccan & not Catholic cause I already don't like the new Pope. Really? He thinks same-sex marriage is, “a plan to destroy God’s plan,” & “a move by the father of lies to confuse and deceive the children of God.”? Did anyone ever stop to think that part of God's plan is to be w/ the person we love no matter if we're straight or gay? And I highly doubt Lucifer wants anyone to be in a loving relationship. And I suppose this new Pope would rather orphans to be raised in an orphanage or an abusive household rather than in the home of 2 gay ppl who'd love it. And I suppose he thinks it's "God's plan" for a woman who was raped to be forced to give birth to & raise the child of the monster who did the heinous act of rape so she has a constant reminder every time she looks at her child. Not to mention that this coward would never pay child support. SMH
Dude, are you joking or are you serious? I really can't tell. Did you proof read anything you just said? Before you start bashing the Catholic religon please educate yourself a little more and stop believing everything you read. "It's on the internet so it must be true", LOL, you just made my day.
God Bless
Tonee,
You certainly do understand that being Catholic is a choice since you have already made one not to be Catholic. So please let those of whose who embrace Catholicism rejoice in the selection of the new Pope and you can practice your faith however you see fit. I will add, the Catholics do not condone the horrible act of rape but do believe the child conceived of this should not pay the ultimate price for the sin of his/her father. There are many people who could adopt this child and see one of God's children and not look at the child with the revulsion you described the mother having. The Catholic Church does not condemn gays any more than it condemns people who have divorced and remarried. The Catholic Church does teach that our souls are jeopardy if we commit ACTS of homosexuality and adultery and have not corrected our actions and asked for forgiveness with the intent of never committing these acts again.
Despite what a number of people desire the Church to become, it will not happen and I disagree that the Church has lost membership due to the Church's unwavering position with regards to abortion, homosexuality, etc. If the Church did change its position on these issues, I believe then, it would see a dramatic drop in membership and Mass attendance. Catholics do believe in what the church teaches and if they don't, then they just aren't Catholic. Being Catholic is not like going to a fast food restaurant and ordering only the things you like off the menu. You take everything or you don't take anything at all. Being Catholic is voluntary. Anytime the Catholic Church issues an opinion on social issues, it issues them as the collective voice of the faithful just as unions do on behalf of their membership.
Lar-1084223 I was being serious. And I don't believe everything I read which is why I think of the stories in the Bible as nothing but mythology...as in they might be true & they might not. Not to mention that it's contradictory. In 1 verse it says "Thou shalt not kill." And yet in other verses it condones the murder of witches, gays, & adulterers. The Bible was written by primitive minded ppl who believed at the time that homosexuality was a choice that straight ppl made & it isn't. Gay ppl are born gay just as straight ppl are born straight. Nobody chooses their sexual orientation. LGBTs have every right to be w/ the person they love just as any straight person does! And it's funny that when a Catholic leader in the church gets in trouble for sexual misconduct it's always against boys & men & hardly ever against girls or women.
Petey812 I as a woman don't think any woman should have to be forced to give birth to a child they didn't want in the 1st place. And I'm sure that a loving couple could adopt the child, but what if 1 day that child gets sick w/ some genetic disorder & the father is the only 1 who can save it? Why would YOU condemn someone to a lifetime of suffering?
I believe in a higher power, God, as that is what we call a higher power but when I see some of the things that religion states it sure doesn't make much sense to me.
I will until my dying day believe in that higher power, whether it be God or whatever and if I end up there after its all said and done then so be it and if I do not then there isn't anything I can do about it. To not believe is everyone's choice and I would never push religion on anyone but if they were to ask me something and I knew the right answer I would tell them it.
Hopefully the good things that religion teaches are kept in the mainstream because without them the world is in a heck of a lot of trouble, morals and common sense have almost disappeared entirely as is evidenced by the news and how people treat each other, especially there loved ones but what can be done about it, I haven't much of a clue except to say that with religion we had a path of sorts to follow.
I'm sure many will disagree with me here and that's fine with me but I would not or am I trying to force this opinion on anyone here, I am just voicing what I feel and wanted to share it out here for what its worth. If I'm lucky and it helps or stops someone from doing something stupid then I have accomplished something good today.
Exactly Muddie mike
I commented on the wrong comment Muddie mike oops
What a surprise, another intolerant bigot hiding behind his robes.
What a surprise, another left wing idiot making an intolerant comment.
women who are raped should have baby and get money from adoptive same sex parents problem solved
Interesting theory. Did you finish high school?
Problem solved? I think the problem was getting raped in the first place. You blew it off in four words.
Raping women is okay. The bible says it is. Now women - get back to not talking and make me food.
Tom, I suggest you run for political office.
nice post mike i kind of feel that way too
Sorry, it is the same old look for the same old church. We will continue to hear of child molestations by priests, who become bishops, who become cardinals, and perhaps become a pope. Frankly, I left the Catholic Church at age 14 on the day my mother told me "Never tell another lie about Father Joseph". The grim reality, I was not lying. I believe in human rights, and when a pope speaks from both sides of his mouth regarding human rights, well I think we might be looking at the devil incarnate. How can the Catholic Church speak out about women's rights when priest have little or no clue about a woman's rights? How can a church, and in this case, another pope, look beyond child molesting by its priests, pretending it just doesn't happen that often? Catholics are dropping donations in the basket, which in turn are used to buy-off the victims, who are actually 1% of those molested as children. History has shown the real standard for the Catholic Church when it comes to Human Rights.
Terry, your questions arise because you are trying to invoke reason upon an organization that does not use reason for the positions they get into in the first place!
It's all about faith, doncha know? Sigh.
@Terry51025: Your situation is terrible and you can be excused for your turning your back on the church IMHO. But because of your terrible situation, you may not be looking at this objectively (ya think?). Also, perhaps you should have been more angry at your mother for not believing you. My brother had the experience of a priest attempting to molest him at age 14 but my mother believed my brother. That priest was brought to justice and defrocked. Hmm... Also, please consider that the John Jay report (the independent investigation after the sex abuse scandal) concluded that less than 2% of RC priests were sexual molesters/deviants. That means that slightly more than 98% of Roman Catholic priests are not sexual predators! Of course you will never hear about that in the main stream media. Would that other clergy of other faiths have as little sexual predator problems. Would thatthe teaching profession have as little sexual predator problems. But every time you year anything about sex abuse, Catholic priests are vilified. Yet you don't hear the other people/professions vilified. Interesting, don't you think?
As for women's rights: I am a woman and am most edified by the posistion of the church on women. It is our culture which denigrates women. If you want to understand what I speak of, just read John Paul II's encyclicals to women that he wrote in during the time of the UN meetings on women in Cairo and Bejing.
@May El-" That priest was brought to justice and defrocked"-Are you serious? Defrocked simply means dismissed. And that equates to "justice?" He should have been put in prison with the other pedophiles!
Let's try the next on-"Also, please consider that the John Jay report (the independent investigation after the sex abuse scandal) concluded that less than 2% of RC priests were sexual molesters/deviants"-Ummmmm...it should be ZERO percent! And I seriously doubt that the Catholic church was very forthcoming in airing their dirty laundry.
Finally, you must not own a television. Anytime a teacher commits a sex crime against a child they make national news. There is no world-wide organization there to cover it up for them.
Shame on you for insults of Terry! I belive in God, not religious, for-profit organizations. You, May, are a blind sheep.
Can't anything be kept sacred anymore? Does EVERYONE have to conform to lifestyles that they dont believe in? I am sooooooo over this gay initiative thing. Just because a small portion of the population is gay, they want the world and laws to revolve around them!! Get over yourself!!! If you dont like the beliefs of the Catholic church, then get the hell out!! Stop trying to change the world!!! No i dont believe in gay marriage, yes I am very old fashioned, yes I have 2 gay family members who feel the same way, and NO I am not a hater!!! Jeez!!!
Take it down a notch.
It's not about the Catholic church, it's about interjecting religion into government.
I am sooooooo over this gay initiative thing.
Apparently that isn't true, because you're here spouting how you're against gays.
Just because a small portion of the population is gay, they want the world and laws to revolve around them!!
Really that's how you see it? People want equality and that means they want the world to revolve around them...... jeez!
@former USAF FlighttNurse If everyone had your attitude, African Americans would still be slaves. Just cause you don't wanna be married to someone of the same sex doesn't mean that those who do shouldn't be allowed. And I hate to break it to you, but life is all about change. If it wasn't we'd still be living in caves.
Amen sister USAF. Tonee you are wise beyond your years, lol (sarcasim). You just don't have anything better to do right now but to be funny. You crack me up.
MJ1986, it is about the Catholic Church. This thread started in reference to the Catholic Church. If you are trying to make a point then go to a different thread that references government.
Thanks for the laughs and God Bless
Your post is probably frightening to many people. Hint: emotion never adds to the truthfullness or to the falseness of a claim. Ever. Try it the next time you are in a Court of Law which requires evidence. Good luck.
You can believe what your want Former, but you don't have the right to impose your beliefs on me or anyone else!
Then Rick don't pratice Catholisim. There are many Christian religions that allow for gay relationships.
Nobody is telling you how to live your life. No one judges you. Don't put your crap on those that don't want it.
God will judge you. God bless you!
Ummmmmmm........we truly wouldn't give a crap about your beliefs if your cult weren't trying to use our secular government to enforce its sharia laws against gays and women. You make your cult everyone's business when you do that. For example, your cult just filed two amicus briefs with the supreme court to oppose the civil rights of gays. It's also spent millions in other lobbying efforts to suppress those rights, including funding hate groups like NOM.
That's the real problem - if you kept your silly sharia laws in your own cult where they belong, no one would give a crap about what you believe. But you make those beliefs a public issue by trying to force them on everyone else.
yes finished high school . no college though
yeah you gays got it pretty good here go visit iran and see how they like you
If you prefer the way it is in Iran about gays.....no one is stopping you.