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Subscribe to RSSPope Francis said Saturday he wanted "a poor church for the poor" in his first remarks to the media since he was elected leader of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics. NBC's Anne Thompson reports.
VATICAN CITY -- Pope Francis said Saturday he wanted "a poor church for the poor" in his first remarks to the media since he was elected leader of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics.
Wearing simple white robes and plain black shoes, he explained how he decided to name himself after St. Francis of Assisi: When he reached two-thirds of the vote in the conclave, a fellow cardinal embraced him and said, "Don't forget the poor."
"That's when I thought of Francis of Assisi," he said. "And that is how the name came to me: Francis of Assisi, the man of poverty, of peace."
He added: "This is what I want, a poor church for the poor."
His comments underscored previous indications of his preference for austerity -- he did not sit on the papal throne to receive the cardinals after being elected, he took a bus with the rest of the cardinals back to their hotel and he was pictured Friday paying the bill himself.
There were some 5,600 accredited journalists – including some children and family members – packed into the Vatican's Paul VI Hall, the UK's Sky News reported.
The 76-year-old pontiff praised reporters for their coverage of the historic transition of the papacy.
"The role of mass media has become essential in modern times, so thank you...you have worked hard," he said to applause.
Pope Francis, formerly Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio, was set to meet Emeritus Pope Benedict at his retreat south of Rome next week, the Holy See said in a statement. It will be the first time in modern history that a newly elected pope has met his predecessor.
Benedict resigned from the papacy on Feb. 28, the first to do so in 600 years. Francis, an Argentine and the first non-European pope, was elected on Wednesday.
Pope Francis is also expected to meet Argentine President Christina Kirchner next week ahead of his Installation Mass on Tuesday, the Vatican said.
More than five thousand journalists joined Pope Francis for his first news conference since being elected Pope. NBC's Vatican analyst George Weigel reports.
The two have a combative history over issues such as same-sex marriage, which Bergoglio described as "a plan to destroy God's plan." Kirchner, meanwhile, said his remarks were "reminiscent of the times of the Inquisition."
On Friday, the Vatican denied "anti-clerical" accusations that Pope Francis had failed to protect priests during the so-called "dirty war" waged by Argentine dictators more than 30 years ago.
"We have every reason to affirm that these accusations are not reliable and there is no reason for them today to cast a shadow over the new pope," Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said at a briefing.
A second spokesman, Father Tom Rosica said the accusations by an Argentine journalist amounted to a political smear campaign against the new pope.
"They reveal left-wing elements, anti-clerical elements that are used to attack the Church," Rosica said. "They must be firmly and clearly denied."
Bergoglio was not a cardinal, or even a bishop, during the time in question but supervisor of Jesuit priests in Argentina.
NBC News' Alastair Jamieson and Ian Johnston, The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.
The sister of Pope Francis told reporters that her brother was in love with a girl when he was young and went to church to pray about it. She said it was at that moment that he "felt the call" to serve the church. NBC's Keir Simmons reports.
Related:
Vatican says 'dirty war' accusations about Pope Francis just a left-wing smear
Church scandals likely to top agenda at 'unprecedented' meeting of popes
Pope Francis and Argentina's Kirchner have history of contentious battles
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So, he is for segregation. He wants rich catholic churches for the rich and poor catholic churches for the poor. Interesting.
This argument about the "Poor church for the poor" has been around for hundreds of years. They claim "Poor in spirit" for the rich, and "poor financially"for the rest of the sheep, that can't afford anything THANKS TO THE GREED OF THE "POOR IN SPIRIT"
Same old BS
pfft!
Ah, yes, trial by pre-determined judgement. No open mindedness on this board.
Brenda your abysmal lack of reading comprehension is very telling. Are you blinded by hate or is it ignorance?
AnotherTexan - Sadly here on Newswhine it is frequently a contest to see whether it is the conservatives or liberals who can be the most closed-minded, bigoted, hate-filled sterotyping asshats.
Ah Yes..a Catholic pope that comes out against women and gays/lesbians. Yep, no open mindedness from this pope...here. Thankfully, the pope and NO OTHER religion decides our secular laws.
*putting those two major strikes off to the side"... Let's see if his actions speak louder than words. No more prada shoes, no limos, no GOLD scepters.... Let's see if the Catholic church can actually 'live' up to the 'help the sick, heal the poor etc" and not call it entitlements
Brenda, you are so ignorant !!
Care about the poor --- ON NO -- he's a SOCIALIST and a MARXIST --- just like Obama!!
Doug, we'll have to put ItsAboutTime in the same ignorant category as Brenda.
The Pope has not come out "against women and gays/lesbians". He upholds the teaching of the Catholic Church that prohibits abortion and same-sex marriage. Unlike our secular humanistic leaning society here in the US, the Church holds that there are certain moral absolutes. Here are some of them for you to consider:
Life begins at the instant of conception
Life is a gift of God and is His to begin and His to end
Valid marriage exists between one man and one woman
What these absolutes dictate is a Church that is opposed to abortion, most birth control and the death penalty. A Church that refuses to marry same-sex couples and holds that homosexual acts are inherently sinful. The Church does not hate women or homosexuals. That is not to say that some members of the Church don't hate women and homosexuals, but the Church does not. Now, time, before you go all whackadoodle nut job on me, I am not stating what I believe, only what the Church does.
Also, the Church is already the world's largest (both size and dollars) charitable organization. The Church feed, clothes, houses and cares for millions and millions of people every day. The Church does not view these things as entitlements. I believe you are conflating the Catholic Church with conservatives, most of whom are of protestant denominations, not Catholic.
BTW, the shoes were never made by Prada. The armored limo/"popemobile" are a sign of the need to secure people of global importance, you know, like presidents, kings, prime ministers, and yes, the Pope.
Right Charlie, because Capitalists have such a good record caring for the poor.
charlie take a deep breath...unless you are joking
he's the head of a religion not a head of a secular state..it's not a political thing.
If you think Obama is a Socialist more than other Presidents (which is implied since I can't recall folks in oppostion to a President calling him a Socialist in my lifetime) you need to lo
We do have aspects of our Democracy that are already technically socialistic. Even that the government upkeeps roads and bridges and pays for teachers and firefighters and police...that is technically socialistist.
So is Medicare and Social Security, technically.
Presidential Historians rate Obama as center-left. He's no far lefty
One thing though. Sociologists and historians say that the current Republican Congress is farther to the Right than ever before. So far that the average Republican of two or three decades ago would be the most liberal Republican (like Olympia Snowe, say) now. Dems haven't shifted to the left but Reps have moved to the Right. That drags what LOOKS LIKE the center to the Right.
Maybe it's a perceptual problem some Righties are having. Obama seems further to the left to you because the center has been dragged so far to the right?
I cant imagine otherwise why you all'l perceive Obama as so far to the left (a socialist) more than many other Presidents. Nixon, a Republican, tried to pass national healthcare. I think he was for, even, a single payer system. He also was to the LEFT of Obama on gun control...talked privately about banning handguns, even. Reagan raised taxes 11 times to deal with a recession, as he knew as most economists do, that RAISNG REVENUE rather than Austerity gets us out of recessions...only after we are out is when you slash spending. But I digress
Obama is more moderate than most liberals like. It's not opinion it's demonstratable fact that he's not extreme. I can't help wondering if it is somethng DIFFERENT about OBAMA as a person that is unique to him amongst previous Presidents that makes Republicans REACT SO STRONGLY and FREAK OUT (Communist! Socialist! Facist! Kenyan!) from the minute he was elected.
The Mexicans in my Chicago neighborhood sure "cleaned out" my poor Catholic Church!!!
LOL.. The right is more left than ever now. Nice spin though no one buys it. The republicans have so many democrats running as repubicans now that they have been losing votes. Either the people that were republicans refuse to vote for a RINO or they vote libertarian now.
A segregated church? A rich church and a poor church? Do you really think that is what he meant?
Pfffft!
Nonsense. Prove it.
Try some other hateful accusation.
Go to any catholic church and look for a Bible. There aren`t any, because their afraid to put them there, you might read it and find the TRUTH!!! They have their own version and its just WRONG!! Find any church thats" Full Gospel"you`ll know what im talking about! Its all a smoke screen (black or white smoke) For them its all about the dollar! A friend of mine just left the church because they asked him for his checking account # so they could withdraw money on sundays incase you didn`t show up!! (no kidding) Read the bible people thats the TRUTH!! You don`t have to thats your choice.
mudderfly, not every Catholic church is like that and there are plenty of Protestant churches that are greedy. They are more like motivational speeches. We live in an imperfect world with imperfect people running it. I think most do their best, but the leaders that do their worst make the most noise in the press. Spreading hate among other faiths will not help your cause.
"Poor church for the poor"...this new pope can not be talking about his own church...it has nothing to do with being poor....his church is one of the wealthist ones going...it would be interesting to see it divest itself to become a "poor " church to be with the poor and serve them. And not themselves.
Nonsense.
All Popes want is more power...tax free, of course.
And these idiots are "Christ's representatives on Earth?"
Hilarious.
Organized religion should be crime. If you want to pray - go and pray in your home. Have a directTV with God. Why use these middlemen?
@ ivan:
You are correct.
The RC church is one of the wealthiest religious organizations on the planet, and owns LOTS of real estate/holdings across the globe.
If they want to start being "for the poor", they need to start giving some of their wealth to those who really need it, and stop hoarding it.
Is he going to give away all the riches the church has accumulated over the years ?
Make the church poor ?
If so his days are numbered. Church hierarchy will not let that happen.
PJ, I love it when people like you come along and want to rewrite all of the history books and how we're supposed to live. If people live the way you descibe it will be nothing but a selfish, self centered world. The Catholic Church has done more than any other organization in the world for hundreds of years to help the poor, the uneducated, the lonely and destitute. What have you done besides trying to tear down that very idea? You sound like Marx to me, and we don't need his or your ideas.
Muddlerfly, you've clearly never attended Mass; otherwise, you would have noticed that each Mass is Holy Scripture from beginning to end. A hymn of praise is sung before the Bible lessons. The first lesson, usually read by a layperson to the congregation, is from the Old Testament, followed by a Psalm that is either said or sung. A selection from the New Testament is likewise read aloud by a member of the congregation. Then the priest or deacon proclaims the assigned Gospel lesson. Finally, the priest gives a homily (sermon) to illustrate the importance of the Scripture lessons, particularly the Gospel, in our lives. During the celebration of Holy Eucharist (Communion), the priest gives a summation of the history leading up to the birth of Jesus. Thanks is given for this Gift. The assembled are bidden to recall the Sacrifice and Resurrection and urged to partake in the consumption of the Eucharistic Bread and Wine, as Jesus instructed on the night of His betrayal: "Do this, in remembrance of Me." (Luke 22:19) After a blessing, Mass is concluded with prayer and hymn-singing. Generally, there are not Bibles furnished in the pews, since all the Scripture is printed out for each Mass or other services. Classes for adults and children have Bibles and other study lessons. In the future, please do not assume we Catholics are ignorant of the Word.
I don't know how you can stand in the Vatican, or next to St. Peter's Basilica and talk about a church to the poor.
When I looked up at those walls, those ceilings, the excess of it didn't strike me as breathtaking, it struck me as vulgar - how many people did they make pay alms after confession to pay for this? How much of it did they take it by sword, or accepted as gifts from those that stole it in raids? How many people died of hunger as a result of the Church's greed?
This isn't an institution of charity. For the poor. By the poor, maybe.
The last published data that I was able to find indicated that in 2001 the Catholic Church took in $422 billion dollars. Lets see just how generous they are to the poor.
The bible is not a history book. It is religious text and in my opinion, fiction.
Carl Heidelberg
You mean "friction"!
Why was it that a Catholic nun was able to teach 44 students in my 4th grade class in the 60's, but today's teachers have a fit if their class size exceeds 25????
TNRN - Thanks, well said.
Mudderfly - Instead of just attacking, why not educate. Tell us what you mean by "Full Gospel" and how you think that might be different from what happens in a Catholic Mass.
I have my weekly donations to my parish deducted electronically too. So what, I pay all my other charitable donations electronically too. That's how I pay all my bills, and I view my support of my parish as much of an obligation as paying my mortgage or electric bill. Its easier for me, I don't have to write a check. Churches need monetary support just like governments do. The church's members pay for that support. Paying electronically is how its done here in the 21st century whether we're talking about our taxes or our donations.
Mudderfly is clearly the product of the Southern Baptist Church of Christ bunch that teach their children that the Roman Catholic Church is not bible based, worship idols and have odd, suspect rituals. As far as money collecting goes, the evangelicals expect at least a ten percent tithe. I worked with a minister's wife once who told me that their church always had to have a building project going because when one project was completed the collections fell off. So they had to start another one. That explains the huge mulit-million churches that are going up around here. Face it guys, there is a lot of money in religion, just look at the TV evangelicals rakeing it in.
The leftist will attack him with all they have got. They do not believe in the morals of the Catholic Church. And since Pope Francis is heading on a path to uphold those values, the left will try to find any way possible to discredit him. He will need to stand strong.
Muddderfly post #1.23 and Carl post #1.26
It was the Catholic Church that assembled the books of the Bible into the Canon of Scripture so people would know what books or letters were Divinely inspired. They did this for one reason:
So as many people as possible could experience the goodness of God and spend eternity in heaven. Eternity is a long time.
Carl: You have to accept that there is a God, Satan, Heaven or Hell and that the Bible and/or Catholic Church speak the word of God or you reject it. Your opinion whether or not God, Satan, Heaven or Hell exist or not has zero bearing on whether they actually do or don't. Your opinion whether or not the Bible and/or Catholic Church speak the word of God has zero bearing on whether or the Bible and/or Catholic Church actually do or don't speak the word of God.
The Catholic Church also teaches that no sin is greater than God's mercy.
"charlie take a deep breath...unless you are joking"
While watching all the festivities within the church last week, one thing struck me, all the men (Priest) are bejeweled and dressed in ornate clothing with fancy ring's and all kinds of bling hanging from their necks, while the women (Nuns) are so drab, dull, almost to the point of being ugly on purpose...
Seems backwards to me...
It is actually frightening to me that so many seemingly intelligent adults still actually believe in god as a big giant head - the wizard behind the curtain, dweller in the clouds, the combo pack of santa claus and the easter bunny and unicorns and rainbows. It would be funny if this stupid belief didn't have any effect on anyone but the believers. Unfortunately, these fairy tale followers would fight (and have fought) wars in order to shove their beliefs down the throats of the "unenlightened".
This guy seems to want to make things a little better. Why don't we all try that? Wow, what a concept. How's about we all try to make ourselves a little bit better today, then things around us. This way the world changes for the better.
Here we go...the new Pope has already started with a lecture about folks STILL not doing enough for "the poor" (despite the TRILLION$ spent) while standing firmly against any type of contraception, thus guaranteeing that there will be more of them to care for.
Brenda, I'm guessing that reading comprehension isn't your strong point. If you had bothered to read the article, or at least had someone read it to you, you would have realized that he wants the Church to become more austere (you probably will need to get someone to explain what that word means) and for clergy to stop living extravagant, lavish lifestyles. (Again, some big words someone will have to help you with.)
Tanainke,
Are you for freedom of expression?
If not, then I'd rather not meet the "God" that you worship. To use your words "frightening".
Hello folks, while I understand that people want to believe that the church is suddenly going to pull a 180 degree turn and advocate for the poor. The reality is that the church has been a tool for the elite in gathering and consolidating the wealth for the very rich. On top of that, the money you have given to the church, 3 billion has gone to paying pedophilia settlements. You think this is going to stop, get real!
Church pedophilia settlements
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/settlements/
The church has had a long history of wealth accumulation and if you think they are going to give it away? Wrong!
The Roman Catholic Church was a founder in virtually every historic major enterprise created out of states under its influence. It had holdings in new corporations from trading companies to banks and then major industries were unmatched.
As the largest economic entity of history for over 1,000 years, the Roman Catholic Church dominated ever single class of assets, not just gold and minerals. Its property holdings were by far the largest of any economic entity in Europe, let alone conquered lands. Their holding of art and precious artifacts was and is unheralded.
Don’t buy into the revisionist history that wars, economic and political incompetence with bad fortune account for their “economic woes”. There are no economic woes!
The Vatican is the largest holder of land titles, gold, and banking shares of any organization or government in the world.
The current market property value of Vatican City, in the heart of Rome alone is worth between US $1 to 3 Billion. This excludes the value of the priceless artworks and valuables stored within its walls.
To hide the massive assets of the Catholic Church, a decentralized system with safeguards and controls were invented.
The major investments of property, fixed assets were transferred under the control of the dioceses around the world. In turn, all non-visible church property was hidden via complex shelf companies and trusts.
Folks this deceit regarding their finances goes far and deep and they are far from broke. Once you take off your religious blinders, at the end of the day they are nothing more than pedophiles, crooks and thieves. Now you know where the banksters get their morals and ethics. These are all easily verifiable facts that a little bit of research will uncover quickly.
So if you still believe the Church is going to give up their wealth after centuries of robbing and pillaging I have a we killed Bin Laden and dumped him in the ocean story for you.
A scam is what it is. Fear, guilt and mass insanity.
joemike404 said:
That's why Catholic Healthcare Initiatives, owners of St. Thomas More Hospital lost the wrongful death lawsuit brought against it by Jeremy Stodghill when his wife, Lori, died and the hospital did nothing to save the twin fetuses she was carrying.
Oh, wait. It was the other way around. They got the lawsuit dismissed because they argued that life doesn't begin at conception and the twin fetuses weren't persons and Jeremy had no case.
As someone who was born and raised Roman Catholic, I trust the church about as far as I can throw them.
Bingo, Jeanne! Don't you just love it when the reflexive anti-Catholics come in here shrieking about things like the Sistine Chapel, but obviously have no problems with Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyer owning their own arenas, Pat Robertson and Benny Hinn owning their own TV networks, Jerry Falwell or Bob Jones running their own universities, etc. etc. etc.. I guess being stinkin' rich is okay if you're right-wing evangelical Protestant...
Nice try putting words in his mouth that he did not say. If the new Pope screws up, criticize him then; by manufacturing statements he did not make, you show that you've made up your mind about him already--not to mention having serious honesty issues...
First the smoke and mirrors.
Then they trot out a guy in a white costume of spotless white robes.
He looks well fed and groomed.
They tell me he is humble because he didn't wear fur and gold jewelry. Those accessories were left in the dressing room.
They tell me he is thoughtful when he does not speak. Like Chance the Gardener, Being There is enough.
He is Italian and lives in Italy. His folks fled Italy for Argentina. (Hey, isn't that the fascist country where the Nazi U-boats dropped off the last of the 3rd Reich?)
He is the head of the Roman Empire. They tell us it is holy, but it gave Mussolini and Hitler blessings.
A costume is not Reformation.
Telling the poor they cannot have birth control does not feed their brood of starving children. 1.2 billion Catholics in 2013!
That was the entire population of humans in 1850! Before that, for centuries, there were only millions of people with short lifespans. No time for us to eat other species to extinction.
If people who cannot feed 1 child continue to have large broods, the population will soon be 8 billion.
7.99999999 billion of them will be poor.
The wealthy will begin to look very tasty.
Doug0560, you say brenda is ignorant because she is smart enough to see through the b.s.? anyone not seeing the "segregative" nature of that rich church, poor church idea is only fooling his or herself. everyone, including the catholic church and it's "pope" seem to have either forgotten or have chosen to purposely supplant jesus' teaching that the church is where ever it's believers are and the gospel is to be preached to EVERYONE equally and without concern of financial status! the new popes comment of creating a "poor" church for poor folks is a blasphemy and if he actually does it in the real world it would be of satan not god.
@Bob Turk, its not black and white. Catholic church certainly has done a lot of good things. However it has also held back humankind for a long time. Only after Europeans let the grip of religion go off did they see renaissance. The whole industrial age and now digital age wouldn't be possible if Europe didn't let go this hold of religion on their life.
As per Marx - I am no Marx.... but mind you Marx did a whole lot for a whole world too. He did capitalism a favor by pointing out what was wrong with the system then. Buddha did the same with Hinduism. Hinduism survived by adjusting ... same with capitalism ... it survived by adjusting for communism.
That would be great, help for the poor and underprivileged, but I doubt the rich republicans who support the church are going to go along with this.
Speaking of that, it reminds me of how Romney disrespected working people by making his statement about the "47% entitlement class of people" in a room full of his rich buddies who paid $50k a plate to listen to his @!$%#, WHILE the 47% were bar-tending, and waiting on their useless asses!!
Must have been a few gasps in the audience at that remark.
Yes, and the most vulnerable, which is ripe for predatory behavior.
All you have here is a transplanted Italian running the church as always. His family moved there! The catholics are no better than the thieving evangelists who promise all of the same things and then buy roll toyces with the money you send in Organized religion is the biggest con game on the planet and until someone can prove to me there is truth to what is in their books and teachings I will stay on the course I have set. Watching them fool people is a real funny pastime.
"If you want to be perfect, sell all that you have and give it to the poor."
Jesus of Nazareth
So, Francis. How about selling off the enormous wealth of the Church and giving it to the poor?
@trust verify - and over 25,000,000 in the US alone to help refugees that come to the US. They help more people than any other organization. Not saying there are not some major problems, but people like you throw the baby out with the bath water.
just a guess, but it might have something to do with the fact that back then (looks like you & I were born in the same decade) people actually parented their children and teachers actually had the support of parents. If a kid was unprepared or acted up, parents would appropriately discipline their kids instead of saying "not MY kid, #@#*!! teacher"
...not to mention everybody I know who attended Catholic school back then was afraid of a beat-down from the nuns LOL
That's like saying the Boy Scouts knowingly allow pedophiles to give my child attention and take him out to dinner, so why condemn them for all the good they do just because they allow/cover up molesters to hurt my child.
How many screws do you have loose?
How about a little help for the poor so they won't be so poor. Like suggesting that contraception is not only not a sin, but the responsible thing to do...
Jesus said...Blessed are the poor in spirit...
Maybe that's what the Pope meant. I find comfort in the Bible and in Jesus' words.
Now you will bash what I have said and ridicule it. Well, I respect your opinion, so please respect mine! You have a right to believe as you wish and so do I. I find much solace and comfort in my beliefs.
I understand what the Pope meant by "wishing for a poor church for the poor people". it's just depressing for the upscale class of followers to be exposed to the dregs of society, the entitlement seekers and homeless whenever they are trying to praise God for what they built in those Sistine-like chapels... it interrupts their harmony and vision of the beautiful world in which they live. Besides the likelihood they can't burn enough incense to cover the stench. Ain't nobody got time for that!
joemike404
We have to put you in the same ignorant category as the republican party. The POPE has come out against gay marriage and women. He has been very clear that gay/lesbian marriage is an abomination, which clearly it's not, and he doesn't feel women have the right to contraception. Do you're homework, instead of drinking the religious kool-aid.
1. Life does not begin at conception. Can two cells live outside the human body the MINUTE conception is done without medical assistance? Answer: no
2. So, when life begins for 8 billion on christians.. is that from god? Umm no.
3. Marriage does not solely exist between a man and a woman. Amazing too, that the BIBLE supports polygamy.
4. THe church is the largest charitable organization? SOURCE PLEASE.
5. The shoes were made by prada. Again do your homework.
P.S. Since you are very uneducated... please show me where GOD Is mentioned in the United States Constitution? Show me where Christianity is the official religion of the United States of America. Lastly, where is the Bible mentioned in our civil laws.
Oh wait, guess what "ITS NOT". See, you do fit the christian uneducated taliban/republican model.
New pope but no new Vatican policies.
The Catholic Church is as controlling an institution as today's Republican Party.
No contraception, no real personal freedom, no equal rights for women, no equal rights for gays, no accountability for war crimes, no accountability for conspiring to protect pedophile priests.
Does the Catholic Church feed the poor? Sure it does. Does either the Catholic Church or the Republican Party truly care about something other than control of the populace? No, not really.
Meanwhile, the Muslim Brotherhood is busy trying to keep women and children subjugated and abused, but nary a peep is heard from Mr. Obama and his leftist supporters. In fact, he helps support the subjugation by giving Morsi financial support.
For someone who took a vow of chastity, he sure has a lot of opinions on marriage. As for the church itself, I'll belive him when every scrap of gold, every work of art, every investment cashed in, etc., to help erradicate poverty. I wonder how many orphans, elderly, and ill they can help with that money.
Oh, yeah? When they start selling their stocks, bonds, real estate and other investments and begin to distribute it to "the poor" they supposedly care so much about, then that will be real news.
Every journey starts with a first step. He's been Pope for just a couple of days. What do you think he would have done by now?
No organization in the world helps others as much as does the Catholic Church.
@nc-492....; and also helps lawyers, and marble statue makers! give me a break! they need to invest in Bible`s, but then when people read them no one would show up on sundays because they found the truth!!!
NC,
"No organization in the world helps others as much as does the Catholic Church."
That's true. This reminds me of that old movie, The Shoes of the Fisherman (1968), where the cardinals elect a Russian as Pope, and, if I remember correctly, he ends up selling all the Churches wealth to help the poor. I wonder is Pope Francis I is going to turn out to be that Pope.
Tom
Have to ask, what is the value being returned of the gift? When you give money, time, goods to a charity, what you are investing in (yes you are investing in someone else's future) do you look for a tack record of good works, does the gift help build relationships, provide training for work, promote health or do you just give blindly or at all. I do be we should all be socially progressive whilst at the same time governmentally (not sure that is a real word) conservative (the concept of the government that governs least governs best).
"Every journey starts with a first step. He's been Pope for just a couple of days. What do you think he would have done by now?"
I agree. Hey -- I'm what known as a "recovering Catholic" but -- give they guy a little space. He's been there for what -- 3 days. I doubt he even knows where the Papal bathroom is yet. At least give him a month or so before you start bitching about him.
For all of you who thinks that the Catholic church is so rich and want to get at the "ghost money" anyway you can, please remember that every time a non catholic is in need, the Catholic church comes to their aid through Catholic Charities Appeal. So we help not only ourselves but others who are not of the faith. We do this because Catholic means "unity." We believe what Jesus said, that there will be a time that there will be one faith(unity) and maybe it would stop the prejudices and the hatred among God's people, ALL of His people. Our new pope is a simple, honorable, and humble man, and maybe if we follow his lead, then maybe our lives will not be so chaotic and fill with violence and envy. Mainly because we will be in the same boat, so to speak.
Charlie, they already have their minds made up about him. For that matter, they had their mind made up about the new Pope before he was even elevated, which tells me their issue is with the pontificate, not the individual who sits in the chair at any one time.
As someone who sits to the left of the political center, I'm not thrilled with many of the Church's positions, but I can tolerate them because the Church at least makes an attempt at some consistency in their human-life teachings. Yes, the Church is against contraception and abortion, but they're also against capital punishment and government policies that marginalize (read here starve) the poor. The RWNJs that are cheering Francis because of the standard Catholic teachings about abortion and marriage equality are very likely in for a big surprise when he starts talking about wealth disparity...
In any case, let's let him build a track record before we start tearing him down, shall we?...
They can start by paying taxes on the over one trillion dollars of real estate they own in America alone.
Tom D-1572290, how do you know they have stocks, bonds, and other investments? Stop assuming. The Catholic Church takes care of millions.
And now they will take care of millions more.
Tom, or Tom Riddle is it?, there will first have to be a plan in place.
And then the Church will start divesting itself of many of its finances to help the poor of the world even more.
Get some education and study the history of the Papacy. This concern for the poor has been what the Church has always done in varying degrees.
Look that the works of Mother Theresa.
So when are you going to start?
Oh, and Tim (Riddle), the Church needs real estate to do their job. Churches and Hospitals. Think.
Is all the molesting and cover up from the Catholic church now wiped clean because of a new pope? I don't think so.
No one is interested in my experience, but here it is anyway: molested by a god fearing catholic who molested me, and would have my sister if I hadn't stepped in, he went to Catholic church on Sunday and was forgiven his sins, only to go do it (molesting young kids) again and again.
I will believe this pope when his actions are louder than his words.
Tom, until you set the example by doing what you want the Catholic Church to do, you are nothing but a hypocrite. A liberal hypocrite at that. So sell your hybrid, liquidate your "green"investments, donate to charity your picture of Obama, Stalin, and Marx hugging, and then you can whine about the Church.
"Charlie, they already have their minds made up about him. For that matter, they had their mind made up about the new Pope before he was even elevated,"
Reminds me of the right wing in this nation when it comes to President Obama. The right made up their minds to hate him even before he was elected.
eyesopen,
"he went to Catholic church on Sunday and was forgiven his sins"
His sins were not necessarily forgiven. Many Protestants misunderstand the Catholic doctrine of penance. They think that all you have to do is go into a confessional and confess your sins, and when the priest utters the magic words, "I absolve thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", then Poof! Your sins are forgiven. That isn't how it works. First of all you must be truly repentant and determined not to commit that sin again because if you are not truly repentant, your sins are not forgiven by God, in spite of what the priest just said. The priest is only a representative of God. It is God who ultimately forgives sins. And, furthermore, not only are you not forgiven if you are not truly repentant, but you have just added another sin to your list of sins, i.e. the sin of a bad confession. They don't talk about Catholic guilt for nothing.
"until you set the example by doing what you want the Catholic Church to do, you are nothing but a hypocrite. A liberal hypocrite at that!
I'm doing what I want the Catholic church to do, I'm telling the truth - I'm openly calling myself a former Catholic.
Now if the church would stop lying that would be great! Remember being told that priests were people "called by God". Uh, I think that's wrong. Either that or God is a pedophile and is recruiting!
And how is it that none of the priests, monsignors, bishops nor cardinals were prosecuted for partaking in and covering the problems? Cardinal Law from Boston - congratulations for your promotion to a job in the Vatican!
Give me a break!
jimbob,
"I'm openly calling myself a former Catholic."
Former members of any religion usually have an axe to grind with the religion they used to belong to. That's why they are "former" members. So anything they say is best taken with a grain of salt.
I'm not a Catholic but I will take a little of what he is offering...
' "I told you I would willingly give you a blessing. Since many of you do not belong to the Catholic Church and others are non-believers, from the bottom of my heart I give this silent blessing to each and every one of you, respecting the conscience of each one of you but knowing that each one of you is a child of God. May God bless all of you," he said.'
My wish is for all of us to see "respecting the conscience of each one of you but knowing that each one of you is a child of God" is the true path and put this Good vs Evil political plan where it belongs. As a republican myself, I beg others to see the truth in this.... respect the conscience of each one.
The Pope smokes dope. That's why they are always swinging incense around him.
woman-488...
I think his intentions are good in regard to that blessing for ALL but I don't WANT his blessing. My personal opinion is that organized religion, especially the catholics with their creepy hierarchy, is an abomination to God. Getting a blessing from their pope, a false prophet, makes me nauseous and feel the need for a shower.
So lucky we live in a country that separates church and state. So lucky.
We have a country
Founded by and established for
Freemasons
A Secret Society that started with the building of the
Temple of Solomon
In response to rock paper scissors
You are an abomination to say such a thing! Accusing this good man to be a false prophet is sickening in itself. Also, You should be THANKFUL you are recieving blessing of any kind from anyone. A true believer accepts the blessings of godly men. How can you reject the things that come from God?
probably a protestant....
Come visit the Southern US, Pope. You will see churches that are multi-million dollar. It's no wonder the younger generation is sliding away from organized religion.
What a contrast to the multi-million $$ protestant megachurches with phony charlatans as leaders. No wonder the protestants attack the catholic church all the time.
My protestant "megachurch" has given 6 million dollars to the poor in India, specifically to the enslaved children in rock quarries (to free them and house them in safe havens). Thats just one small area we served. What has your church done, huh?
MJ,
While the Catholic Church does indeed have some large churches in the southern US, those huge churches belong to other denominations as well. Check out some of your local southern Baptist mega churches.
Kath,
The Catholic Church gives more to help others than does any other entity in the world. What you local church does is very commendable and indeed very large, but all of the Baptists in the world together do not give away near what the Catholic Church gives away.
Kath, Catholic charities don't give millions, but billions of dollars to feed, educate, shelter, evangelize, and heal the poor worldwide. Is the biggest religious donor worldwide in terms of total contributions, and percentage of their own budget. Who are you trying to impress with 6 millions dollars, out of hundreds and hundreds that your megachurch receives ?. What kind of car is your minister driving, what kind mansion does he live in? that's right, thank you. Peace be with you.
Kath-
Well my Church.... let's see,it all depends on the needs.After a disaster, it will send millions of dollars in resources of food,medical, shelter and clothing to help people recover immediately. Almost always times faster then Red Cross can make arrangements.Since it already has constant supplies standing by.While local members from the area will help everyone who needs help cleaning up, members or not.Families are checked on each month to make sure they are doing okay.If illness or loss of job makes paying essential bills impossible, aid to pay can be given, including food,clothing.Also job training, language and assistance in finding work in the area.The clergy isn't paid, so money donated literally does towards the needs members mark when they give it.
There is a program to help members in third world locations get an education, to better their future. Service projects are done to help tackle special needs in communities, saving money locally, or helping accomplish projects, perhaps a senior needs done around their yard or with their home. When people are ill in the hospital, members checkup on them, so no one gets overlooked and forgotten, even helping out to take care of special needs for things a person must have done at home, they can't do because they are too ill, recovering from surgery or too old And then there are making baby quilts, kits to send off to service members, made by the tens of thousands, farms where food, cattle is raised, then processed and canned, to be given out for food to the hungry.That is part of helping each other and being supportive.
While our church has been noted as having a great example of a welfare program and self sufficiency ideology by many presidents, we don't normally go pointing how much our church has done compared with other churches. Because what matters really, is how much we as individuals, are living a Christ like life ourselves.For He will judge us in the end. Not hold us accountable for what others did or said.Thus to compare what our church is doing with another, is fruitless. We can't sit back and feel great, thinking how much good what we donate our money to is doing for our spirits.It is what we do in our lives personally.For Christ will look upon US to see our character in the end, and how much we have followed in His footsteps.That happens each day in the end.
What an absolutely ridiculous statement! Like the youth in America shun multi-million dollar institution! They are the main reason there are multi-million dollar institutions.The youth shun religion because 1)their parents shun religion 2) they are too lazy and self absorbed to care about anything but themselves (not all of them, but most of them) 3)The government, our public schools and Hollywood demonizes and criticizes religion.
Are you really that stupid that you are fighting over protestant church or catholic church ?
Churches, temples and mosques are nothing but edifices that have been erected to control the mind of sheeples and accumulate wealth for the board of trustees.
It's a money making business. You may go there to pray but people who run it are only there for the power and the money.
I think that the younger generatiion are falling away because they would love a religion that would go by their rules and statues, as welll as older people, but the guidance of how to live is found in the bible(the Holy Scriptures). But the Scriptures does not approved of homsexuality, abortion, murder, rape, incest,taking the God's name in vain etc. In other words, all the things that the secular world approved of.
@Kath MY CHURCH has given more aid to the poor than any organization in the world. The catholic church.
"My church . . " did this. Oh yeah? Well "My church . . ." did this. "My church . . ."
Aren't we all suppose to be one church that works together to encourage each other? You may all go to church but I'm questioning what you're learning.
What is this? An old fashioned dick measuring contest?
I was raised a Southern Baptist and I've also volunteered in Jesuit soup kitchens and done some charitable work with a nearby monastery. Not nearly enough but some.
My experience is that the Jesuits are some of the hardest working people out there trying to help to poor and needy. I sure couldn't keep up with the average day of some of the priests around here! They also run some of the best colleges in the world including 28 here in the US. Bill Clinton is an alumnus of one of their schools that he attended via scholarships, Georgetown.
If more people would live their life with just a fraction of the humility and charity that the Jesuits do, the world would be a much better place. I think it's a wonderful choice for the Catholic church to elect this man as Pope. His order lives by the scripture James 2:18: Now someone may argue, "Some people have faith; others have good deeds." But I say, "How can you show me your faith if you don't have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds."
When pope Francis states he wants a poor church for the poor, it seems as though he has never dealt with the Vatican curia. If he starts cutting the clergy's budget, there may be a revolt (sort of a clerical slow-down). Likewise, the Catholic Church "machine" may be the most entrenched in the world! Good luck, to him!
I can pee further than you! Good grief. To all people, religious or not, who give their time, energy, prayers and resources to any cause that helps mankind, I say THANK YOU!
I went to St. Francis High School. You should learn a bit about the Franciscan way of life. You will be impressed. And yes, the Franciscan friars do live a simple, humble life. They are great people with great values. are they perfect? No, but who is?
To those in the mega churches that throw dollars to justify whatever they are saying. I was a member, but I also cleaned the pastor's mega house. I left that church. Discernment is a gift from God. If your church passes this test - then good. If not, make a change.
My church is Saddleback Church...nough said!
But for those who don't know Saddleback, we have been to every nation, helped rebuild Rwanda, sent millions of dollars to help people all over the world, including non-Christians, have volunteer trained rapid response teams who were sent to disaster areas all over the world including New Orleans, Indonesia (tsunami) and Japan (earthquake.) We have also helped thousands of people with HIV/AIDS all over the world. We have donated and went all over the world to help orphanages. The Church can do what governments cannot.
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY SON, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE! John 3:16
My church did this! My church did that!
May the Orange Men march on your parade!
Me, I'm atheist, I love everyone, sort of like the pope.
I would love for him to say that no Catholic Church or school in the world would be allowed to close until the residence of the local bishop, archbishop, or cardinal is sold first. I've seen too many faithful Catholics have their churches shut down and neighborhood devastated so the church can pay settlements to abuse victims while the hiearrchy continues to live in luxury.
For most Bishops their residence also serves as their offices. They live in a small part of the residence while most of it is taken up in offices and meeting rooms. What you suggest would have some symbolic, but little practical value.
LSC,
No you haven't. Show me proof.
My own parish, NC. It is a parish in far western Maryland which once encompassed seven churches; in the last year, two have been shut down, and we have exactly two priests to service the remaining five. Of the five remaining, there is at least a chance that one more may also be shut down. As a result, many of our elderly parishioners are already facing difficulties getting to Mass (this is a rural area and you can't just take a quick stroll down the street to get to church). As a result of that, we also have a shortage of eucharistic ministers to take the Eucharist to them. But go ahead and believe what you want to believe--you already have your mind made up, of course...
My church Our Lady of Fathima in Florissant MO spent over $800,000 to install an elevator required by the archdiocese to stay open. We were told that our church would not be closed if we built an elevator to make it handicapped accessible. A lot of our older patrons gave until it hurt to keep our church open. Within 12 months of us having the grand opening of the elevator the lying archdiocese closed the church. I haven't set foot in any church since.
I am hopeful. His humility, humor, and simplicity are refreshing. His choice for his papal name says it all.
I'm hopeful too. I don't expect any back off of the Church's views on abortion or gay marriage. A bit of leeway on birth control would be nice and maybe priests could marry..but not holding my breath on that. What I DO see is a more humble attitude, less pomp and grandure and more communication with ordinary people. I like that this man seems uninterested in sitting on a throne wearing silks and brocades. If Francis the first can make the Vatican less like a emporers palace and encourage the "princes of the Church" to be less prince like it will bring the church back to what it should be...more Christ like.
Jeanne, I never expected the papacy to back off its "life-issues" positions, but the new Pope does have the option to focus the attention of the Church more on poverty issues than on those other ones. If he does, expect many of the RWNJs who now adore him to change their tune in a hurry...
I'm not Catholic but occasionally visit their churches not knowing when to kneel or what to repeat, awkward. Anyways the last pope was looking rather evil & I think they realized it so needed a friendly face in friendly color of white or pure.
dw,
Watch what the others do as to kneeling, sitting or standing. Also, the missalette gives guidance at each part of the Mass as to what to do.
The last Pope was "looking" evil? Are you "sounding" evil?
Don't be silly.
@ NC:
You can obey the little conformist rules that the RC church requires it's members to adhere to all you want.
Those rules were written by MEN, and masochistic ones at that.
Jesus never mentioned any of those strict gestures and rituals. I doubt Jesus would approve the whole motif of the RC religion:
Jesus strung up on a cross while bloodied and dying.
Jesus preached love, not remembering the morbid aspect of his end.
The founding fathers of the "Church" as it now stands, made it about fear, worshipping other "saints" that they chose to sanctify, and treating women like second class or lesser participants.
I don't have to "prove" any of this to you. It's history, and there for anyone who chooses not to close their eyes to it.
No one wants to believe THEIR team is corrupt or has done any wrong.
I was brought up Catholic, so I know the routine. My grandfather was a high ranking member of the Knights of Columbus, and very dedicated to the RC church.
The RC church spends $$ on charity, knowing they will receive donations from others. It's really not their money in the first place. It comes from their flock.
How about they start foregoing all the fancy adornments, and get rid of the gold they love to display.
Jesus was humble and without much possessions. Why aren't they emulating him?
It's easy. You sit to listen, you stand to sing and you kneel to pray. Just watch everyone else .
The last Pope was reared as a Hitler youth and his SS unit was doing its best to kill our boys in the 8th Air Force before they bombed out German fighter plane factories. He wasn't in a concentration camp because of his resistance, he was a goose stepping Nazi soldier.
Hitler lost. Forgive the poor little Nazis, but why honor one of them?
Wasn't there one Catholic boy in Germany who had both courage and conscience to resist?
There were catholic boys in nazi Germany who did resist. They were dead before the war ended. Strange how pope pius XII remained indifferent to the holocaust.
Read MT 16: 13 - 20. If God is good, wouldn’t He make sure that humans can be confident that they can know what human actions He says are morally right and what human actions He says are morally wrong? Jesus founded the Catholic Church by appointing Peter as Her head. Jesus also sent the Holy Spirit to protect Her from teaching error. Jesus told Peter whatever you hold bound on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you hold loose on earth shall be held loose in heaven. When the Church exercises her Magisterial Teaching Authority through official Church documents on Faith and Morals humans can be confident that these are God’s pronouncements about what human actions are morally right and what human actions are morally wrong. If you disagree, where does your moral authority come from? Also, as proof, it was also predicted about 2,000 years ago that the Catholic Church would survive until Jesus Second Coming. What other hierarchal human institution has survived that long—and predicted it would be so? Given these two facts, what are the odds that the Catholic Church surviving as it has is just a “coincidence” or the reason it survived is because one set of humans is more successful at “pulling the wool” over the rest of humanity?
The Bible came from the Catholic Church. It really becomes a question of authority. Catholics believe that the Church is the authority on Faith and Morals. (Read 1 Timothy 3:15.)
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
The Catholic church, and not the Bible is the foundation of Truth.
Most of the Bible came from Jewish religious texts.
"Jesus founded the Catholic church..."? "The Catholic church, and not the Bible, is the foundation of truth."? You really must be delusional. Those statements make about as much sense as using the words "Catholic church" and "poor" in the same sentence. Jesus did not found any particular denomination, and the only real source of truth is the Bible, not the Catholic church, which frequently chooses to ignore portions of the Bible that it does not agree with.
bikerchick,
The Old Testament came from Jewish-held Scripture.
The New Testament was written by Christians.
Anthrope,
The Catholic Church/Christianity was started by Jesus, yep. Says so right in the Bible. Jesus also gave the new church (the ONLY church at that time until men started thinking that they knew better than God and started their own groups) the power to interpret Scripture via the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The Bible, which was compiled by the Catholic Church, is the only complete Bible. There was no Bible before 405 AD but there was a lot of scripture, not all of which is included in the complete Bible.
1000 years after the Bible was compiled, Protestants removed some books of the OT (6) and some portions of the NT that they did not like. Interesting, eh?
OK, now you know. Coming to join us soon?
Paul never knew Jesus, and obviously threw some of his own personal beliefs into the mix.
Paul can arguably be said to be a masochist who didn't respect women very much.
Many MEN wrote the bible, at different time periods.
Then, religious leaders revised those writings to suit their own agendas.
Example: the King James version.
It's not "interesting" that they picked and chose what they wanted their followers to hear/see.
It's censorship, and about controlling the message.
That is a trait of MEN, not a supposed perfect being/God, who has a message of love and truth.
American Lobo:
Read my original post #7. Catholics believe that when She is exercising her Magisterial Teaching authority on Faith and Morals humans can be confident She is proclaiming what God believes is morally right and what is morally wrong. You obviously don't accept that belief, but your belief that it isn't true has zero bearing on whether it is actually true or not. Eternity is long time, choose wisely and know that no sin is greater than God's mercy.
American Lobo post 7.5:
Read Paul's epistles. He had a special revelation about Jesus. We can all know Jesus through prayer. He loves us and is always calling us to know him. Please take some moments in absolute silence and ask him to come and lead your life. You will be glad that you did. He loves you beyond all human understanding and can intercede in the trials and tribulations of your life.
Let's take Matthew 16:13-20 in its full context.
v13. Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Phillippi, He began asking His disciples, saying, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" [Note the emphasis. It was a controversial question. Previous to this question the Phaisees and Saducees had just got done attacking Him and His authority to teach, demanding that He give them a sign to prove Himself. In verse 4 Christ said the only sign that they would receive would be the 'sign of Jonah,' an allusion to His death and resurrection. His resurrection would bare witness to the truth of all He had said and claimed. As Paul had said in I Corinthians chapter 13, If Christ is not risen our faith is in vain. Interesting that nearly 2000 years since people still are debating about who Jesus was and is.]
v14. And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, and others, Elijah, but still others Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. [Note: The emphasis is still on Christ, and their reply is that many viewed Him as merely a prophet or some great teacher returned. That attitude is shared by many today who don't see Jesus as being divine, but still say He was a good man and great teacher.]
v15. He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" [That is still the question to each person today: Who is Jesus to you, personally today? Again the emphasis is on Christ here and who He is.]
v16. And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." [Christ, the annointed]
v17. And Jesus said to Him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." [Blessed are you. Because he had received this insight through divine revelation and not through human influences.]
v18. And I also say to you that you are Peter and upon this rock I shall build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it. [Note: you are Peter: The name Peter (Greek, Petros) means rock or rock-man. In the next phrase Christ used petra (upon the "rock," not a name, a feminine form for "rock,' not a name. Jesus used a play on words. He does not say "upon you Peter" or "upon your successors," but upon this rock---upon the divine revelation and faith in Christ, I will build. This shows that the formation of the church (not a religious institution) was still in the future. It began on the day of Pentecost (Acts Chapter 2). The word church appears only here and in Matthew 18:17.]
v19. "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." [the keys. The authority to open the doors of Christendom was given to Peter, who used that authority for Jews on the day of Pentecost and for Gentiles in the house of Cornelius (Acts 10). shall be bound......shall be loosed. Heaven, not the Apostles, initates all binding and loosing, while the Apostles announce these things. In John 20:22-23 sins are in view. An example of the Apostles' binding things on people is found in Acts 15:20.]
v20. Then He warned His disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ. [Note: Not at the time that He was speaking to them and not until after His resurrection were they to proclaim the Gospel message]
Sorry, NC. Not buying it. "Christianity" is NOT synonymous with the "Catholic church". The Catholic church is a denomination, and regardless of what the Catholic church thinks, it is not the indisputable authority in the world on issues of Christian faith. The Catholic church is very ritualistic and works oriented. The Bible is very clear that salvation comes through grace, not works (meaning that you can't "earn" your way into heaven no matter what you do, or no matter how many confessions you make, or how many "Our Fathers" or "Hail Marys" you chant). Catholics also believe in worshiping Mary and worshiping saintly statues in their churches (essentially idolatry), two other things that the Bible clearly prohibits. Additionally, the Catholic church heirarchy basically establishes the Pope as the "right hand of God", which he is not. The Pope is just a man. You are free to believe anything you want, and I do believe that the Catholic church does a lot of good in the world, but don't expect me to join you in the fiction of the arrogant, high-handed, and self-righteous segments of Catholic theology. I fully recognize the authority of the Holy Bible, of God Almighty, and of Jesus Christ, but recognize NO authority of the Catholic church.
The Old Testament is not a product of Rome.
The New Testament is a work of the Greeks.
The Catholic Church is built on the Roman Empire. It based on the Roman mythology of Jupiter and Juno, and the Pope is just another Caesar. Rome has not changed in 2000 years, and Vatican City was part of Mussolini's Empire.
Jesus never made it to Rome. He was last seen hanging around Jerusalem.
Shalom2U said---The Catholic Church and not the Bible is the foundation of truth.
It is written, So faith cometh from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ [Romans 10:17]
It is further written, All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. [2 Timothy 3:16-17]
The foundation of truth is where Jesus said, I am the way, I am the truth and I am the life, and no man comes to the Father but through Me.
You are either in error or you mispoke your thoughts, but Christ is the cornerstone of the faith which leads to the salvation of men, not the institution of the church.
I notice you like your Epistles, Curt--are you that enthusiastic about the Gospels? There's a reading from them in every single Mass, you know...
@conjuring cat---I love all the Scriptures, and I personally believe that there isn't one church which has the market on the truth of God. There are many man-made rules which have been incorporated into the faith which has made it more burdensome then it really ought to be. The Gospel is the "Good News." That Jesus lives and that we might have hope not only in this world but the one to come because He conquered death and paid the price for our sins, which we were unable to do for ourselves.
Further, I'm not out to denegrate the Catholic Church or any church institution for that matter. Christ is the judge of His own church, but we believers in Christ have been instructed to test what is taught and said by application of the Scriptures to see what is said is really so.
I am reminded of what Paul wrote to the Church at Corinth----Now I exhort you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree, and there be no divisons among you, but you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. [I Corinthinas 1:10]
Why? Why did he say this? Because it was reported to him that even then there were divisons rising up inside the church. Some were claiming that they were of "Paul" others of "Apollos" and others of "Cephas/Peter" and others of "Christ."
Paul made the argument, "Was I crucified for you?" That applied to all the rest, even Peter. The emphasis should always been on Christ and His finished work at the cross, for as it is written, For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to those who are being saved it is the power of God. [I Corinthians 1:18].
I am also reminded of what is said, that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. [I Corinthians 2:5].
The bible is true. Says so right here in my bible.
Brilliant.
Actually, we don't know what exactly should or should not be in the Bible. It has been influenced by both good and bad over the centuries. Even the books of the Bible as outlined in the First Council of Nicaea have not survived.
What is important is what it tries to teach us. Faith, humility and charity with love for all is what the covenant of the New Testament is teaching us. So instead of focusing on the trivial matters of who is right and what Church is correct, maybe we ought to focus on that.
@Heathen Infidel---I know that comment was meant to a type of sarcasm, but the Bible would just be another piece of literature if not for one thing---An empty tomb. If Christ be not risen, then there would be no reason to believe any of it. The fact is, there were more then 500 people who could attest to having seen Jesus, literally and physically, up to forty days after His resurection. Many of them staked their lives upon that testimony and a vast majority suffered death because they would not recant the truth of what they personally witnessed. So, if Christ is not risen, then there would be no reason to believe any of it.
It all comes down to CHOOSING to believe the writers of the bible because you WANT to believe them.
You can find "eyewitnesses" in MANY accounts of supposed history or stories.
Yet all we have to go on, is the word of the writer(s) of those stories.
Paul SAID he had an epiphany from "God".
If you choose to believe an obvious woman hater and attention grabber like Paul.....
then that is on you.
If "God" wants me to know it( I won't say Him, because I doubt "God" is either male or female), then It can present Itself to me directly.
No need for middlemen and imperfect humans, which are unreliable means of carrying a "true" message, without adding their own spin on it.
Too many are afraid to just admit that they don't know.
They pretend to "know" "God", because it assuages their fear of the unknown, and counters the possibility of a true end of their consciousness after they die.
It's a "feel good" story, that can't ever be proven or dis-proven.
@American Lobo---Absolutely, you're correct. For it is written, 'Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.' You're free to choose to accept what is written or not, and I'm mindful of the fact that there were many whom witnessed all that Christ did and said at the time of His earthly ministry and still rejected Him. The problem isn't with the intellectual ability to accept it, but with the hearts ability to accept it. As you pointed out, human beings are imperfect and unreliable means of carrying messages, but by that token of reasoning you would be admitting that your own reasoning and ability to comprehend things you don't understand is equally a point of question; assuming you're a human being like the rest of us. So, are you able to trust your own opinions in light of what you do not know? That said, I hope you'll have an epiphany yourself just like the Apostle Paul had.
American Lobo,
"It's a "feel good" story"
You say that as if there is something wrong with feeling good! Is it better to live without hope, in despair and feeling bad?
Wow Shalommmm. I think you've got that backwards my friend. I've attended mass a few times with inlaws and yip in the lords prayer you do say... the one and only true church, but that 'don't make it true. I think if we return to what this new pope just said, he is not the center of the church but that Jesus is the TRUE center, you will see why I can't say "The Catholic church, and not the Bible is the foundation of Truth." The Catholic church has too many humans running the show to be the foundation of Truth. And to not see how the Catholic church used its place in the world to move itself into this position... well, we got to be smarter than that.
Woman-488866 post #7.20 and Big Curt-3947469 post #7.11
Woman: you can't, but Paul did. Read 1 Tim 3:15 and read my original #7 post.
Big Curt: I am just quoting the Apostle Paul at 1 Tim 3:15.
American Lobo post #7.17:
Correct. I choose to believe them after much thought and prayer and use of logic. But let's not be naive here, You don't believe the writers of the Bible because you CHOSE NOT TO BELIEVE because YOU DON"T WANT TO BELIEVE because if you did, you would have to change. Denying things in life that in life you enjoy because God says such things in life are sinful is a struggle for us all. Don't stop trying and know that no sin is greater is than God's mercy; just don't call evil good and good evil.
I believe. I am assuming you believe that Paul is a woman hater based on the following Biblical passage:
Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. So [also] husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “For this reason a man shall leave [his] father and [his] mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church. In any case, each one of you should love his wife as himself, and the wife should respect her husband.
Seems to me Paul doesn't hate women, but is asking men to live up to very difficult standard out of love for their wife.
Clearly, you require that you be in charge of God if you want to believe in him. If you want to know God and experience His love, it requires humility. You have to acknowledge your sinfulness, beg for His forgiveness and ask Him to help you experience His love. Out of Pride or ignorance, you are not willing to make that first step. If you do, you will be glad you did. No sin is greater than God's mercy.
Big Curt #7.8:
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/peter-the-rock
v19 and v20 concerns I will answer tomorrow...I am oing to bed
I can't judge your faith because faith is a very personal attribute that cannot be shown, just acted out. But from your logic and your actions I can judge your sanity. From where I am the churches and religious movements act insane, protecting their own meme at all cost, even sacrificing their downtrodden and their children to the church. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
@Shalom2U #7.21----In regards to Christ being the chief cornerstone of the faith, I don't see how we could be in disagreement. It is written, So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone. [Ephesians 2:19-20].
In I Corinthians 3:11, Paul speaks of Christ as the sole foundation, For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.
Peter also wrote of this in I Peter 2:4-8. So, the Scripture you pointed out, I Timothy 3:15, merely harmonizes the same message that Christ is the foundation, and that the church (the body of believers and not the institution) carries on that foundation of truth which was taught to us. I hope that clears up your question.
Big Curt-3947469 post #7.8:
That is your interpretation. Other's have interpreted this passage as follows:
“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven.’ And again He says to him after His resurrection: ‘Feed my sheep.’ On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (Cyprian of Carthage, 251).
Certainly the phrase "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" implies a much longer time period than Acts 10. Many Biblical scholars acknowledge that "keys" also symbolize an office that are to be passed on after a person dies or leaves the office. At the end of the day, it comes down who has the proper authority to interpret the Bible passages. If God is good, wouldn’t He make sure that humans can be confident how Scripture is to be interpreted? Why would God leave it to humans to "guess" who has the proper interpretation of Scripture? Doesn't the Catholic Church have the best claim to that "moral authority" based on Her history and the passages I gave?
Big Curt-3947469
I posed no question in post #7.21 I simply pointed out that the Bible says "the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth", not me. Paul was not writing to Peter; he was writing to Timothy. Peter was not writing to Timothy. I don't see how they could harmonize if they don't know what each other wrote. Paul simply was stating that "church of the living God, is the pillar and foundation of truth". It is true that this same Church decided what human writings were Divinely inspired, that teachings of Jesus Christ and Christ himself is the foundation of our Faith, was both 100% God and 100% man, and loves us beyond ll human understanding and will forgive our sins if we forgive others their sins against us. We humans can believe all these statements because this church is the pillar and foundation of truth."
believers of what? We can agree on a lot, but we can also disagree on many things. Here is 1 Tim 3: 1-15.
This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity; for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of the church of God? He should not be a recent convert, so that he may not become conceited and thus incur the devil’s punishment. He must also have a good reputation among outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, the devil’s trap. Similarly, deacons must be dignified, not deceitful, not addicted to drink, not greedy for sordid gain, holding fast to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. Moreover, they should be tested first; then, if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons. Women, similarly, should be dignified, not slanderers, but temperate and faithful in everything. Deacons may be married only once and must manage their children and their households well. Thus those who serve well as deacons gain good standing and much confidence in their faith in Christ Jesus. I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon. But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
In most this passage Paul is talking about the qualifications of the officers of the institution so one can easily interpret to mean that Paul is talking about the institution and not the body of believers.
@Shalom4U.....It is true that this same Church decided what human writings were divenly inspired, that the teachings of Jesus Christ himself is the foundation of our faith, was both 100% God and 100% man, and loves us beyond understanding..
What we agree upon is that the Scriptures were divinely inspired, and that the teachings of Jesus is the foundation of our faith, and that He was both 100% God and man, and loves us beyond understanding. This we agree upon.
Doctrinally we are most certainly divided on some other issues. Apostolic succession just being one of those issues, and I understand that is where your thesis is going forward here. Whether it is profitable or not to go forward in a debate inside a public forum, I would have to say it isn't. Although I will say that you have been respectful in your approach as I have attempted to be. Our common link is found in Jesus Christ, the Authour and Finisher of our faith even if we disagree on some of the methods, and or interpretations of the Scriptures.
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time, and now and forever. Amen [Jude:24-25]
By the way, one last final thought to you, Shalom4U....At least I made you do a little homework. Keep searching and studying...:)
Big Curt-3947469 posts #7.28 & #7.29
Concur with everything you said and you have been very respectful. You are a wonderful witness to the message of the Gospels. Thanks.
Amen!
Big Curt and Shalom2U,
It's nice to see a civil discussion between two people instead of a bunch of name calling on Newsvine for a change. That's the right Christian attitude to have whatever your differences may be. Keep up the good work!
That's a joke. No such thing as ANY church for the poor. All the churches do is skim donations passing around their basket begging for money from the poor (and rich) to build every bigger more fancy churches and do little to help the poor as they are too busy paying for fancy lots on top of prime real estate hills and building every more humongous places of worship. What a waste.
No entity in the world gives to help more people than does the Catholic Church. Other denominations give away tremendous amounts, as well.
Maybe you should check out your delusions before spewing.
more do have proof that they do not help the poor? Because it is really easy to find proof that they do.
The Apostle John wrote how Judas Iscariot had been their treasurer, in charge of their money box and that he was a thief pilfering what was put into it. (See: John 12:1-8).
The fact is, you'll find a Judas in every church. Since Judas was one of the twelve, chances are 1-in-12 you'll find a Judas in the church. I'm being facetious and not stating any sort of facts. Just saying...
Francis of Assisi was rich but left wealth to preach and live with the poor who were left out. Now does the new Pope endorse keeping people poor while others get richer? He will live a rich life but preach to the poor and look for them to donate to the church. At lease he has a direction for the church to go. The first request from the Pope was for the faithful to pray for him. With his history he does need prayers but also forgiveness from God.
What history?
Maybe you should worry about yourself and the unfounded accusations against others that you make without any evidence. Taking care of your own shortcomings is a full time job.
He favors the poor? Too bad, he won't last long as Pope that way.
How much do you give to the poor?
chick,
How would you know?
I wish him luck if he wishes to change the institution , but the Catholic Church is an institution that has remained for centuries - Popes come and go - the institution remains. The institution has an inertial of it's own.
And the inertia is very good.
"This is what I want, a poor church for the poor." Why not instead say prosperity for all? Oh that's right, because the church has always promoted a steep divide between classes. But sure, sure...comfort those poor people with imaginary friends who beat them into humility.
Show me proof of your claims.
What? You twist his words into a meaning that was not intended. He wants the church to be humble and help the poor that is what his words meant. You probably knew that if not well there is your reading comprehension lesson for the day.
Nothing has changed with this religion, former leader worked for the Nazis shooting down allied planed. New leader handed leftist priest, the ones I admired as a youth, over to the rightist government who executed them. It is a religion riddled with conservatives who think only about themselves and not the people.
idiotic comment.
USF,
What? What are you trying to say?
A lot of judgmental people on this board.
Psst Pope, you need money to run a church and the poor people says they have no money, most are living off some sort of government handouts, what are you going up to Obama and ask for a government bail-out, saying you organization is to big too fail???
RoboCop,
Are you ill?
Wow, you really are an uninformed idiot. Catholics in the United States comprise a very small part of the church worldwide. But in your ignorance you have to make some sort of idiotic political statement.
And it sure didn't take long for this thread, too, to be all about Obama! So tell me, Robo, do you obsess about Obama all the time, or only when you're awake? There are medications for your condition, you know...
Hmmm I don't think he realizes who puts more of the money in the collection baskets. The poor don't have the money to donate.
PWD,
Would you at least try to make sense? He means that he wants a church that takes care of the poor.
Are you ok?
When you join the catholic church the VERY FIRST thing you receive in the mail are the collection envelopes - which arrive in concert with the welcome letter. I have never attended a single catholic event where the topic of giving wasn't raised in some form or another. I was even at a funeral recently and the priest managed to work it into the eulogy by saying that he saw the poor deceased envelope every sunday. The Catholic Church is one of the richest organization in the entire world but there is no way to verify how rich because of it's extreme secrecy - which is probably a good thing for them to keep secret. So, good luck with that poor church thing. Those Cardinals aren't giving up their Limo's for anyonne - even if the Pope sets a great example. You all can expect those contribution envelopes to arrive at your homes on right on schedule. And, you can also expect the next cry for more mony to occur on this Sunday morning - on schedule.
Ronk,
Your hate blinds you.
He means that he wants a church that takes care of the poor.
Calm down.
Ronk sounds calm enough to me.
Making a statement based on observations, is not being hateful.
It's being observant.
And yes, the RC church IS very SECRETIVE.
No one but the top hierachy knows the full extent.
Look at how they covered up sexual abuses by their clergy for YEARS.
Yeah, Ronk, and Protestant churches never never NEVER ask for money, do they? Not like some of them actually have ATMS in their vestubules, right?...
You do realize the purpose of the collection envelopes is so people who give can get a statement for tax purposes at the end of the year?
The comments written by some of you forum trolls is enough
to make God himself turn atheist and pull the plug on us all.
Retards on this board!!!!
More hate from the left.
The left hated Hitler. Prescott Bush got rich trading with him.
The left hated Mussolini. Vatican City blessed him.
The left love information. Joseph Goebbels invented the Big Lie. The Big Lie is Karl Rove's Life.
Good news - The Truth Will Set You Free.
One working stiff bartender took out billions of Romney dollar power by letting us all hear Romney's 47 percent speech.
See, Charlie, John is like most RWNJs--anything they don't personally like must be liberal...
John - as someone who lives in on the right, we can't just say the hate is coming from the left. This Good vs Evil thing is just as hateful.
To all you guys in Vatican City who wear the funny hats: study your history. Your incessant worship of something ill-defined which logically does not exist makes you poor in rationality, and the history of your organization shows you to be morally poor.
another idiotic comment, right from a moron.
gadfly,
And what good have you done?
gadfly,
And what good have you done?
gadfly,
And what good have you done?
.
Just another man elevated to nearly hysterical celebrity status. As if he were a special conduit to God. Indeed.
maybe one day you will be important too pig.
Yes, he is just another man with the biggest job in the world.
He
IS a special conduit FROM God, though....to us.
The pope is chosen by MEN not "God", but go ahead and believe whatever tickles your fancy.
Once men start raising a few "chosen" above the rest of us, it's a recipe for control/domination, and fleecing the flock.
Jesus and the bible(OT/NT) said to only pray to "God".
Not saints, not Mary, and not even Jesus himself.
And we worship the Pope, too, Lobo, blah blah blah...
We ask the saints and Mary to pray for us; we do not pray to them as if they were God. Ever heard of a prayer chain? Our petitions to Mary and the saints are merely a prayer chain on steroids, so to speak...
The poor gives 10%, and works hard to become rich. Now he is rich, and gives 3%.
arthur,
Proof, please.
What?
Hey, Arthur... until you have actual evidence to show us all, why not just go back to school and get some class instead of talking like a 12 year old fool. You're just mad because no one changed your diapers in the past 12 hours.
He just became pope, you dumb humanoid. How can you even say he only gives 3%? Yes, exactly... come back when your I.Q. reaches a number past "stupid". Already, you have an I.Q. of a skittle. Have a nice day!
anyone can talk big pal.
joe,
What? Who? Are you ok?
NC-492358, I love you! You are one of the few on this forum who makes sense!
Who are you talking to, the mirror? You make as much sense as wiping before you poop.
i wouldn't expect any of you to be able to use your heads for anything other than sticking it up your asse* Staying confused is a fact of life for you.
Of course there should be a church for the poor and a church for the more affluent by all means the rich should not be subject to all that poor oozing all over the place they are there to buy some religion, not get poverty all over their "Sunday go to meeting outfits"...
GREG,
Why do YOU say that? Do you hate poor people?
The catholics choose for the leader of our church to live in opulence. It is our way of showing how much we esteem our Holy Father. It is our money and who out there has any right to tell us how we should spend our money? Many catholics go to our church and do not give 1 penny, and, guess what, they are still considered catholics! Moreover, the Catholic Church is known world wide for it's charity. That is another reason I contribute every week in the Offertory. I want to help as many people as I can and I choose to have the Catholic Church distribute that charitable contribution.
@ PGH:
So in your biased mind, the more money you give to the RC church, the more "Catholic" you are?
Only those who give the most $$ have the right to question how it's spent?
Sounds like you are more about worshipping mammon($), than following the teachings of Jesus.
Did you bother to read what I wrote before you started sprouting off?
And the article is about the wealth of the church. What would I be talking about? Michele's new bangs, you idiot?
And who said people can't be this stupid...
Greg, you are a coward to sit there hiding behind your computer screen with Pringles crumbs scattered around your big stomach and say that in shorter words that the poor are the scourge of the Earth. This is why most people who are rich these days can be just as much a scumbag as you are. The poor have just as much rights as any rich person to go to church...any church of their choosing. Before I bury you even deeper here I suggest you stop, clean your dirty shirt, and stop being a piece of bat sh$t before karma runs wild on you. Get some class, you pile of dirt.
The poor are not all beggars, but in fact most even work and though they get paid less than the rich, they do what they can, for what they can earn and that does not make them a scourge, or bad people even. It's people like you who stereo-type and point fingers making the poor people to blame for everything, whether you had a bad day, or the roads have pot holes. I hope your mother slaps the spit out of your mouth for being such a scumbag because I will if she won't.
first off, you all seem to be missing the fact, either on purpose or thru being brainwashed by your church to be one track minded, that gregs comment is one of sarcastic truth. rich people don't and won't be around people they think are beneath them, i.e. poor people!. if they would why would the pope feel the need to build a second church for the poor to attend? and as far as the people "choosing" to let the pope live in opulance is totally rediculous! idiotic in fact! one man living so high on the hog while billions of human beings starve and suffer daily! i've heard people complain about pres. obama and the things afforded him as president. they've said for the price of operating the presidential jet millions of people could be fed but then people like you all saying it's o.k. for people to starve and live in poverty while your pope has more than any one man should ever have because YOU want him to have it!. hypocrisy at it's finest. before anyone goes and makes any idle threats of violence against my person i feel it's only fair that i warn you in advance that I am no coward but rather i am someone who easily reads between the lines of which it takes intelligence, knowledge and understanding. so don't waste your time growing "internet muscles" and saying you'll slap me because if you really think you could succeed in doing that we can meet somewhere and you can give it a try. besides, whatever happened to you catholics actually following the teachings of jesus? you know, the old "turn the other cheek" and the meek will inherit the earth concepts? you all don't bother with that christian type stuff anymore, do ya! well, that's fine with me and lucifer! you and people like you are the real devils walking the earth.
PGH:
I won't donate to ANY organization that has those at the top living in "opulence".
I give my help/donations/food DIRECTLY to the poor, on an individual basis.
If you give donations with the intent of it being spent on the poor/needy, and don't care that the leaders of the RC church are living in opulence, then you need help.
Any true follower of the teachings of Jesus, knows that looking "opulent", is FAR from what Jesus taught as the path to "God" or eternal life.
This Catholic-born atheist agrees with Gandhi: "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are not like your Christ."
There's a great deal of hate in this thread, all coming from people who profess Christianity!
I try to follow Christ's teachings because he was a communist passionate about social justice issues. For the first time, Catholics now have a Jesuit pope who is also passionate about social justice issues. jesuits are the predominant teaching order of the Church; they are scientists. Pope Francis taught high school Chemistry, for example.
At 76, I doubt he'll be able to do much to change the institution--but I wish him well, and I already like his smile, his spirit, and his attitude. We should all try for humility.
I'm an atheist because the universes are far too vast for a God made in our human image--I think the arrogance of believing "God's on MY side" has been responsible for many, many wars and the deaths of millions. I see too much of that right here.
Dee Turner, you say;