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Andrew Testa / Panos Pictures for NBC News
Father Nizar Semaan gives Holy Communion at Holy Trinity church in the Brook Green area of London.
LONDON -- Rana stepped out of church in Baghdad in December 2006 to find an envelope wedged against her car windshield. Inside was a bullet -- a message that meant she and her family were next on an assassin’s list.
They fled the city the next day, leaving behind a business, a home -- everything.
"I didn't like Saddam Hussein, but he didn't bother the Christians," said Rana, 29, after a church service in London. "He was a dictator. When he went, the gangs came from everywhere."
Rana isn’t alone: Bombings, kidnappings and generalized violence unleashed by the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq that toppled Hussein caused hundreds of thousands of Christians to flee their homeland.
While there is no centralized source of information on the number of Christians who have left Iraq, it is estimated that there were 2 million there in the 1990s. That number has fallen to between 200,000 to 500,000 today, according to church leaders.
Rana, who like others interviewed would not give her last name because of fear for the safety of relatives still in Iraq, is now part of a congregation that worships at Holy Trinity Brook Green, a Roman Catholic church in West London.
The congregants -- Syriac Catholics whose services are conducted in Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus -- are part of the estimated 2,500 Iraqi Christians thought to live in the U.K.
In a pew near Rana sat Wasseem, a 26-year-old who arrived in the U.K. five months ago. The murder of his friend Rariq haunts him, Wasseem said through a translator. Rariq, also a Christian, was a driver for American forces in Baghdad and was kidnapped on his way to meet Wasseem. Rariq’s dismembered body was returned to his family five days later.
Extremists have stepped up attacks on Iraqi Christians in recent months, threatening the ancient community's very existence. NBC News' Stephanie Gosk reports.
Wasseem received a handwritten death threat himself. Terrified, he decided to stay in his village in northern Iraq, he said. While safe, the predominantly Christian area offered no jobs, and he soon fled the country.
Extremists haven't targeted only individual Christians and their families. On Oct. 31, 2010, gunmen stormed Our Lady of Salvation Church in Baghdad during Sunday Mass, taking more than a hundred hostages. When security forces tried to free those held, the attackers detonated explosives. At least 58 people were killed, including two priests.
Related video: Baghdad church siege has bloody end
A singer at Holy Trinity Brook Green lost her father in the bombing. Rev. Nizar Semaan, chaplain to the Syriac Catholic community in the U.K., knew both of the murdered priests well.
"They were very courageous people. It is not easy to do their job. And not easy to be a martyr," he said.
Andrew Testa / Panos Pictures for NBC News
Iraqi children make up the choir at the London church.
Semaan’s support for Christians who have fled to the U.K. goes beyond the spiritual.
"I try to help them find accommodation, I ask people to help in any way," he said. "I call people to help them find a job."
Semaan said that he and his fellow priests refused to contemplate the extinction of the Christian community in Iraq, despite its falling numbers.
"Christianity can flourish again. It will grow back as an important part of the region," he said.
Warina, who also attends Mass at Holy Trinity, is more downbeat. Like many of her fellow worshipers, she said life for Christians was better under Saddam Hussein.
"Our neighbors were Muslims. Our relations were friendly. We would visit them," said the dentist who fled Iraq in 2007. "Now it is just fighting. There are lots of churches and monasteries and places to worship in Baghdad -- but they are all empty."
This week marks the 10th anniversary of the start of the Iraq War. ITV's John Irvine in Baghdad assesses a country that, 10 years on, remains gripped by the violence of its sectarian divide.
"We love Iraq. It's our country, the origin of Christianity. But it is not safe," she added.
As Christians, Warina said, they are doubly vulnerable -- not only are they a minority, but they are perceived by some as having colluded with the invading American forces.
"After Saddam's death, people turned on Christians because they think the Christians encouraged the Americans to come to Iraq. Month after month, more and more are killed," she said.
Still, Semaan said he thinks a newly elected Pope Francis will act to support his threatened community.
"The pope will see the persecution and he will take care of us. He will not forget the church in the Middle East," Semaan said. "He is not a politician and he has no army, but he has good will and can encourage dialogue and maybe this can bring about a better situation."
Besides, Iraq needs its Christians, Semaan added.
"The Middle East without Christians would be a country without light," he said. "The future would be very dark."
In the ten years since guided bombs brought "shock and awe" to Baghdad, almost 4,500 troops and 130,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed and Saddam Hussein has been captured and executed in a mission that has cost nearly $2 trillion. NBC's Richard Engel reports.
Related:
Did Iraq War accomplish what Bush vowed?
10 years after invasion, US troops ask: 'Was it worth it?'
Then and now: Rephotography shows Iraqi sites 10 years after Saddam
Leave a Comment:
We made Iraq a better place. Now it's time to move on and fix Sryia and Iran. America bringing good will to the world!
BOB--are you serious? It's time we get out and mind our own business. Haven't we learned yet that we are not the world's police department? We don't belong in the Mideast--PERIOD...We don't need any more wars or Republicans creating them....
60's vet, No I was not serious. Iraq was a disaster created by our lying politicians. My point is stay tuned for more to come.
OK so it was sarcastic, Bob. These damn republicans are not happy unless there is a war. Then when it's started and we have to deal with the veterans that the Republicans like to cut their benefits. If we can't take care of our Veterans, then we shouldn't be making them . Get out of the mideast NOW !!!!
Hussein was a stabilizing force in the region despite his use of chemical weapons on his own people (which the ineffectual UN should have dealt with). The roving gangs post-Hussein are the true representatives of the peace-loving Muslims - no tolerance for other religions or even for Muslims who do not adhere to their strict interpretation of Islam. We did nothing to curtail North Korea that is now threatening us with nuclear weapons. Hopefully, there's still time to do something with Iran.
As I recall the war in Iraq was supported by BOTH parties almost unanimously,not just repubs.(dems are politicians too)
OCinLA,
You are mostly correct, but it doesn't change the fact that it was 100% a neo-con project.
And how often those who opposed that war were called traitors, or even enemies (you're either with us or against us) ?
You should all remember about it, because right now there is a deliberate attempt taking place to drag the United States into another major conflict.
Thanks Dick and George. Your war carry's on. People are displaced and killed and tortured. Boy, we sure helped out over there. I still think that Dick Cheney is a war criminal. Read an article yesterday that pretty much proved the war was about his DREAM of westernizing Iraq's oil. Sad. Although, Muslims and Christians have been fighting FOREVER, having our people over there...did NOT HELP.
right Peter, the democrat leadership speaking out against an unnecessary war is as nonexistent today as it was then.
Seems to be just another version of the same old excuse islamic extremists use to justify their violence against those of other faiths. If I recall correctly, there was quite a bit of celebrating when the Americans came and Saddam jumped ship.
GM Basil. As usual, you've hit the nail on the head. Great post.
Getting rid of Hussein should not have turned into a bad thing since he was not exactly a venerable leader as is evidenced by the following link.
http://kdp.se/old/chemical.html
OCinLA
As I recall, BUSH had already committed us to IRAQ using the War Powers Act of 1973. After our troops were there, and the 'decision' was made, then he went to Congress for support. Bush started the war and didn't feel he 'needed' congressional support because of the Persian Gulf.
Bush led us into a war over a lie.
I got the intended sarcasm, Bob.
Here ya go, rightie Bush-o-philes. Here's what your hero and his boss, Darth Cheney, did for you. Good work, wasn't it?
The problem with the USA is that we are too divided, we can't even vote the corruption out if we continue to fight against ourselves like we do now their control will be complete. We will become as sheep begging our masters for salvation. If all you are willing to choose is corruption then all you will get is corruption and there will be no hope and no change. My hopes and dreams is that people of the US will wake up and fire all of our so called leaders that have been selling the country out. To develop a unity and a desire to work together to build our nation rather then let a select few make massive profits destroying it. To vote responsibly and put people in office that will serve the country over special interests and throw the ones serving special interests over the country out. My fear is that nothing will change and all the guns in the world will not protect us from ourselves. This country has totally lost it's mind due to corruption, greed, and ignorance and will deserve everything it will get. Buy off both parties, silence any other alternative parties, sell your people, future and economy out on wars for the greed of a few, export jobs for slave labor and the freedom to pollute your heart out, import desperate people for slave labor, destroy your schools and teachers, dumb the people down, feed them violence and filth, create laws that make otherwise law abiding people criminals, fill your prisons with non violent criminals and send the violent criminals back out on the streets because of overcrowding. Don't forget to make guns a right and don't require any training, testing, licensing or registration then use it as an excuse to take them away from law abiding citizens. Also make it almost impossible for the mentally ill to receive treatment until they commit some horrific crime. The eagle has been plucked by corporate greed and sold out politicians that a dumbed down nation keep voting back in office. What's going on in this country is totally ridiculous, if we the people don't vote out all the incumbents at the next election and don't dilute the rats nest with third party candidates then we are just as ridiculous and deserve every thing we get.
Get out. Many believe we are out of Iraq. Not so. Before the major military forces pulled out, the US built the largest, most Fort-like embassy in the world. With State Dept staff, security contractors, military attaches and advisors, we have 10,000 people still there burning cash at an ultra high level. Pack em up and get out. Yes there will be trouble in Iraq for the next thousand years. But there's been nothing but trouble there for the last thousand years. We didn't cause it, but we were stupid enough to go there and for a time made it worse. The best thing we can do is leave em alone. They'll sort it out after we leave.
Itsabouttime- yes It was a lie. everyone with any brains knew it, and nobody in Washington had the stones to do anything but go along with it.
LMAO.. Christians complaining about persecuted. WTF.. Don't they remember the Crusades? You know where the Christians went about persecuting and burning people at the stake for using their free will and NOT kowtowing to a false idol. The Christians should STFU. Their religion, Islam and Judaism is the reason the world is at war. Those who don't beLIEve in the LIES the religions peddle, those who think for themselves are the ones who will be standing in the end.
We should have NEVER been in Iraq. It was a personal payback by King George on Saddam, for him wanting to kill daddy Bush. Bush gave Cheney and Haliburton carte blanche in Iraq. Who made the money? Cheney, $80 million richer after the war and "gas rebates."
America is flat broke thanks to the GOP and their wars, tax cuts for the rich. America should NOT be involved in another war until we have ALL our troops home, and have closed ALL our foreign bases. We do NOT need a base in Italy, Germany, etc, unless those nations can have permanent bases here. We spend trillions helping prop up other nations over the last decade, yet America has become the 3rd world nation. 21 million homeless, 21 million more out of work. The list goes on and on America.
Saddam was no saint. But he was an American puppet who eventually fell out of favor. However Iraqi society was a secular society. Christians rose to very high posts in Saddam's cabinet. Saddam's most important cabinet secretary - Tariq Aziz - was a christian and served as Saddam's foreign minister or secretary of state in American terms.
TO: OCinLA who wrote:
But you refuse to "recall" the most important aspect which is Democrats were LIED TO by George "Curveball" Bush who seems to be among the few who were the only ones who actually benefitted from the Lie Called the War in Iraq by taking over control of Iraqi Oil Revenues and Iraqi Oil Fields. We'd also like to know who, exactly, received those "spoils of war" that should have gone to the United States and the American People who paid for the cost of that war in both blood and treasure!
Selective memories are one of the biggest downfalls of the Republican Party.
Either Republicans "fail and refuse to remember" intricate details, or just outright "lie and deny" about the truth of the matter.
Yeah. And the SAME DAMN LIES are being told to us as we get more involved in the Syrian morass. You know - the "it's for our national security" and "the poor oppressed little darlings just want to be a democracy like us" and - you just have to love this one now - "time to topple this oppressive regime. It'll be worth it." And then the classics "This is only humaintarian aid. These are only small 'covert' missions". Uh huh.
These lies ring a bell? Sound familiar, folks? Well they should.
Again, Note here these are the SAME DAMN LIES. Only told by a DIFFERENT ADMINISTRATION.
Face it. Democrats as well as Republicans are hors for the M.I.C. FACT.
A-Girl - selective memories are all we have lol...otherwise how would be able to get through a day :)
Don't you remember why the Crusades came into existence??? Do centuries of bloody war by Ottomans sound familiar??? Crusades ended a very long time ago, BTW. The Ottomans ended just under 100 years ago and still influence groups like the taliban even today. And that is what we are talking about, BTW. TODAY!!! You want ancient history, don't pick and choose.
Why don't you???
Really??? And that would be why??? Better war machine??? Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao...just for starters...
BTW...since you're so interested...here are some links showing recent persecution of Christians around the world, including an MSNBC article on the subject. I'm sure you will find it quite heart warming.
http://www.prisoneralert.com/vompw_persecution.htm
http://www.persecution.org/
http://www.persecution.com/
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/50399112/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/about-million-christians-persecuted-around-world-report/
http://jlue.wordpress.com/2012/04/24/christians-persecuted-around-the-world/
Besides, Iraq needs its Christians, Semaan added.
"The Middle East without Christians would be a country without light," he said. "The future would be very dark."
Sad to say the results in Iraq predate President Bush by years. It is hard to say who is responsible for what and why. The Joint Chiefs don't make up stuff as they go. They have battle plans years in advance since it takes years to build up and deploy troops around the world. The logistics alone are very complex and years in advance of real actions. Just saying the truth is more involved than a few players Presidents Clinton and Bush.
Why does it always have to democRAT vs RepubliCANT.
We need to start judging politicians by actions and not words! Both Dems and repubs voted to invade iraq!
60's veteran -
Do you realize how stupid it sounds to blame radical Islam on Republicans? Have you already forgotten 9-11? Radical Islam hates America NOT just President Bush.
Obama, has started two wars in the Middle East, Egypt and Libya. Christians are also being killed and driven out in both of those countries, seems like Dictators were the only thing keeping Christians safe in the Middle East. What bothers me is our President doesn't even seem to mind that Christians are being slaughtered, not one single word has he spoken against it. Boy the democrats are soooooo much better than those big bad Republicans , huh 60's VET????
The lesson is simple... don't waste American lives and money on Muslim countries. When will our damn politicians get it???
Beyond politics the problem in the ME as a whole is the live and let die mentality, instead of a live and let live mentality. This attitude has kept them in the stone ages and hindered them from evolving into a diverse society that uses a pool of people for advancement and not just one color or religion. Diversity in a society helps it to flourish. (Not rocket science) Being Christian and especially practicing Christianity anywhere in the ME is a dangerous option.
Al Qeada in Iraq are mostly behind these bombings more than Iraqi citizens themselves trying to create sectarian violence among al the religions. We gave them the start to Democracy, it is up to them to make it succeed. Utopia under tyrannical rule is not Utopia but a prison. I would rather struggle and be free than have order under a tyrant.
@bob; Our goals in Iraq were to remove a tyrannical ruler who tried to assassinate our president. The next goal was to stop a growing threat to the ME that possibly had WMDs. Judging by the finds in Syria we were probably right. Plans for nuclear weapons were also found in Iraq. We freed a people from one who killed his own without mercy. Do not place blame on us because they can not evolve past the live and let die mentality and continue to allow Al Qeada to kill unabated.
p.s. 60's veteran, the "60's" war was started by Democrats.
Excellent post, Coral.
Coral, we should have known BEFORE we invaded Iraq that these people would NEVER embrace, never mind implement, Jeffersonian democracy. So yes, as we went into Iraq thinking that we could change a centuries old tribal culture, we seized on this most shining example of faulty, pie in the sky logic. So yes, the ultimate blame RESTS SOLELY ON US. PERIOD.
Same people everyday, all day, these threads are redundant and pointless interloper dribble!
The Iraqi war is why I didn't vote for Bush the second time around, it's not that I'm anti-war, but I am an anti-blowup-a-country-we-shouldn't-be-in kind of guy.
Both the iraqi war and the 'rebuilding' (lol) of iraq was a complete joke, the country is NOT better off for what we did. What the libs are failing to realize though is that obama has been in the process of committing the same exact crimes in the middle east that bush did. We are still in places we shouldn't be, involving ourselves in countries we shouldn't, having our men and women killed in countries we should be in, and getting christians killed in even more middle eastern countries.
Bush = obama
It's really too bad that more people didn't wise up this second time with obama, but then again, not enough people wised up to bush either.
@ American Girl
Glad to see you still believe in your own lies. I am not getting into it again with you this would be the what 10th time I would prove you wrong.
All information Bush said came from the Clinton Administration !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stop the bull ok...
@60's vet we also don't need anymore Democrats creating more wars what do you propose we do with Iran and Korea, think we can wait them out? if we ignore them will they go away, that was Carters game till they decided to take over our Embassy to get Jimmies attention then they played him like a puppet till Reagan came along and all of a sudden they returned our people, now we are on Obama,s watch involved in but not involved in conflicts all over the ME and Africa, should we keep giving them money, supplies, more money and then more money or just leave it alone like we should have in the first place? Arab spring is Americas autumn. its not just Republicans its a f'ed up world truth is Democrats get us into more trouble then the Republicans do always have always will, 60's Vet did you forget what party LBJ belonged to how about Truman, remember Roosevelt? Clinton and Obama all got us into conflicts, so what is your point, are you angry at the Democrats that ran the house that started Bushes wars? senility sucks doesn't it.
HI American Girl, selective memory or outright lying is not restricted by party lines. Remember"I did not have sex with that woman" ..............what? she was cleaning it for me, and it went off!.....Btw no repub here, moderate independent.
So why is America swinging so Communist?? We want others to have freedom and democracy but our dear leader and the past several administrations are doing their best to strip ours.. He is giving machine guns and explosives to radicals and wants to take our firearms away..
All these Middle East countries are ramping up their persecution of Christians as they have been empowered by our Muslim leader.. This crap is spreading into Europe and Africa with Many countries like France, England and the Scandinavian region feeling the pain of growing Islamic populations.. Oh the peace loving Muslim is so tolerant and caring until they are the majority.. Egypt is a perfect example of Islamic nation building.. A constitution that stripped rights from Christians and made them second class citizens..
So what happened to all that cheap oil we were suppose to get out of this?
Gee, color me shocked about this outcome. I mean, it's not as if anyone could have seen this coming (oh wait, you mean people DID see this coming and decried the media-fed rush to war at the time it was happening. Nevermind then...)
@hotticket;
Not hardly . We went in to rid ourselves of an existential threat, period. We did just that. Do you really think we are that ignorant to think we are going to reverse "tribal culture" or their culture period? Think again. Democracy is a by product of our intended goals. Installing Democracy became part of the mission. Installing a Democracy was never the sole purpose of the mission.
For you guys to take away from the great job our fighting men and women did stopping a civil war in a foreign country and allowing for elections really ticks me off. This seemed to be the impossible made possible. They are not at fault for anything.
You do not allow or wait for something to grow that has the sole purpose of destroying you or your government, you kill it. Saddam tried to kill our president and paid the ultimate price. If you wish to lay any blame, blame him.
Amazing how the most ignorant post gets voted up so much. Oh and Bob we made the world a better place.
Without Saddam.
Seems to be just another version of the same old excuse islamic extremists use to justify their violence against those of other faiths.
Sound like the same old excuse we used to invade other countries and impose our political system by force. Ooo Islam isn't Christian at all is it? It must be bad. This statement reveals that the war in Iraq was in fact a Christian conversion project for some. It was a way to spread Christianity, democracy, and McDonald's to the 'poor countries held in the tyrannical grip of Islam'
During the Bush years, we looked like a bunch of hypocrites to the rest of the world. Spreading Freedom by removing other people's chosen political systems. Spreading respect for human rights by torturing detainees. Ignoring our own laws because of racial and ideological prejudice against Muslims.
The ordinary citizens in Iraq have very poor education, much like us. So, when their country was invaded by a bunch of white Christians, and they had Christians amongst them who probably supported the attack half the time and condemned it the other half, they feel resentment. They feel like they have to act out to gain some of their lost pride. They feel like they want revenge, and now that the US is gone they'll look for ways to find that retribution.
These incidents are more violent recently. The presence of Christians in Iraq, and the fact that they were okay before the war, shows that WE are responsible for creating resentment for Christianity in the Middle East. By being a bunch of club-footed invaders.
60's vetera " These damn republicans are not happy unless there is a war."
Of the more than 600,000 American war deaths over the last 100 years, more than 96% of them were lost under Democratic Presidents.
Perhaps Republicans have a more realistic foreign policy that PREVENTS wars, as opposed to naive Democratic Presidents.
PS - Each Party held the Presidency about equal amounts of time during the last 100 years.
I guess this is the latest version of "Ethnic Cleansing", with Christians as the target now.
The difference between Democrats and Republicans is one will accept the blame for its short comings while the other will simply blame the latter. one will flat out lie to you while the, latter apologizes for the miss understanding, one will openly rob you blind with taxes, while the other fights to prevent that from happening. the DNC pretends to be good even though it is evil, while the GOP might be out of touch but is basically good. the Republicans are made up of Patriots the Democrats are Nationalist, the Dem's have all the same faults as the Republicans and then some. and then more on top of that! America is being destroyed from the inside out and you know who is doing it.
GA Chefaz: Happy Passover to you and happy Easter and Passover to all others, including those I disagree with.
All information Bush used against Iraq came from the Clinton administration.
WHAT?! That's one of the most ridiculous claims I've seen. Intelligence services do not change every election--but the way politicians interpret it does. That's why Cheney leaped on a discredited, doubtful report when making claims about nukes in Iraq.
Here's some simple info from wiki, which is easy to fact-check.
Richard Clarke, former chief counter-terrorism adviser on the National Security Council for both the latter part of the Clinton Administration and early part of the George W. Bush Administration, criticized the Iraq war along similar lines in his 2004 book Against All Enemies and during his testimony before the 9/11 Commission. In addition to diverting funds from the fight against al-Qaeda, Clarke argued that the invasion of Iraq would actually bolster the efforts of Osama bin Laden and other Islamic radicals, who had long predicted that the U.S. planned to invade an oil-rich Middle Eastern country.
I don't think of wikipedia as the sole, credible source on everything, but it does tell you things that should be COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
I suggest you read this article on wiki, to determine just where the political lines were drawn. The war was a conservative project, a Republican project, which they sold to everyone with lies about nukes that did not, in fact, exist. Selective memory indeed.
I'll cede your point with regard to Vietnam, but it's not as if that war wasn't popular with Republican administrations as well (Nixon initiated the Cambodian Campaign).
Yeah, and it just so happens that Democratic Presidents were in office during WWI and WWII. I'm sure that in no way skews the statistics, right?
This is just partisan bull@!$%#.
DNC pretends to be good even though it is evil, while the GOP might be out of touch but is basically good.
Holy Moses! This is why a lot of us are worried about fundamentalism in the Republican party. Claiming that Democrats are actually in league with satan. What kind of world are you living in?
I disagree with Republicans about a lot of things, but I won't accuse them of being evil. Just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them satan's minion. Republicans want to make the world a better place, but then look at what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. Good job. And thanks for the economy.
Yeah. Too bad a raving bunch of Islamofascist thugs have taken his place and that Iraq is now a tinderbox waiting to explode, huh?
Yup, that's some improvement there! Yessiree bob!
*eyes roll*
This is actually true. Unfortunately, the info passed from the Clinton Administration was just the sales receipt from when we sold Saddam all those WMD's in the 80's (back when he was our guy):
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg
@hotticket;
Yes, but still up to them to rise to the occasion as we did centuries ago against an aggressive and overwhelming enemy and create a diverse society that thrives and not just survives.
I agree with most "fat chance"(as far as diversity) there, but still we are not culpable for the chaos Al Qeada are the ones mainly responsible for the continuing chaos. I hold the current government responsible for ridding themselves and the Christians of this threat.
Yes freedom is improvement. Would you rather have order under a tyrant, or freedom in a fledgeling Democracy? Democracies beginnings are always filled with chaos, just as ours. Sounds like you guys would give up liberties for order. Never a wise choice.
Hussein; freedom of religion, many of his top people were Catholics, Jewish business flourished, girls were admitted to higher education; he was a enemy of al Quieda, he kept Iran in bay, no terriost from iraqui, radical Muslims were expelled;
we were lied to by the Chicken Hawks, Bush, Cheney,Rumsfield, about non existence weapons; the war would be over in 6 weeks, no cost since Iraqi war would pay for the war;
is it any wonder the American people turned on the Republican party with such a vengeance.
@saxon;
Where do you guys get this stuff?lol Are you seriously trying to make Saddam look good? wow! Enemy of Al Qeada?lol Read on.
As I stated Al Qeada is the root of the evil here. They need to step up and rid themselves of them. Now they are the enemy Saxon.
Saddam Hussein was a stabilizing force in the middle-east, despite being the evilest son of a bitch since hitler, he actually kept the middle east under control, it was only after we removed him that the middle east dissolved into this @!$%#hole.
The last veteran from WWI died several years ago and veterans from WWII are in their 80s and 90s, but considering that every American who is in the military or who has ever served even one a single day in the military or made it to retirement make up less than 1% of the American population, it is sickening how our government again and again cuts their benefits and retirement pay while those same entitled freeloaders in Washington give themselves such cushy benefits and retirement packages that can't be touched by anyone but themselves since they write the laws that created them.
America should never have gotten involved in Iraq. Our government and the wealthy who control it saw an opportunity to control that country's oil supply and used the lives of our military to take advantage of it.
I am not certain Muslims are able to live in a democracy (not that we have a democracy in the USA any longer). It seems all they know is force and death. Without one side or the other in absolute control, many must die and when one side or the other wrests control from the other, many deaths are sure to follow until they have rooted their control. Then they use fear and killings to maintain their control. The Shiites have gained control in Iraq and like fleas on a camel, I doubt they will be shaken off easily. What we have been seeing is their program of death to ensure their control. I am certain, like Iraq, Afghanistan will also become some sort of dictatorship under a rosy glow of democracy.
I actually think the best chance for Muslims to join the rest of the world in a modern society rests with their women who are fighting for equality.
CORAL TAXI: Tikriti; was a leader in the catholic community in Iraqi; even Israel intelligence says the meeting was a warning to Osama to stay out of Iraqi; he pulled out went to Yemen and then to Afghanistan; Yes Saddam was a dictator, the mid-east has lived under dictatorship for the last 2 thousand years; we were sold a bill of goods by the Chicken hawks in Washington, we are paying a terrible price for our mistake, and will continue to pay for many years to come, just taking care of our wounded will cost over a trillion over the next 60 years.o
Why do people excuse barbarism today with that committed long ago? We've evolved, It's time they did.
@saxxon;
I show you facts they(AL Qeada) were "in bed" together yet you still defend Saddam as a better option than freedom?
Then hotticket gets voted up on a false premise trying to say we were installing "Jeffersonian" values on them. Not the case at all.
per usual ignorance abounds.
Just exactly what are many of you calling "Bush's lie?" I think I know, but I want one (or more) of you to actually put it into print...so I can (hopefully) open your eyes to your erroneous assumptions. Advance warning: you may need to do some research to see that I am correct.
The USA brought "pure hell" to Iraq for no reason. The place will burn for years to come. Cowards will attempt to justify it by blaming Al Qeada, but that's nothing but the noise of pigeons pecking bullsh^t. We really did ourselves up brown in that ugly process as well. "Bagdad Bob" was the closest we ever found to the claimed WMD, along with some rather aggressive Roosters. Iraq will shame the US for centuries to come, and rightly so.
Republicans cut the benefits of the veterans, now that makes me laugh. Now if war breaks out in Iran or Syria is this going to be Bush's fault also?
Islam, the religion of peace, love, and tolerance has been so busy trying to kill each other plus the Christians, it is a tossup who they hate more. Each other, the Christians, or us.
For all of this country's faults I am so very thankful to live here instead of the Middle East. At least here we don't have to worry about Lutherans trying to kill Catholics or Baptists trying to kill Methodists, or any combination of the above or others! I am still free to safely worship if and as I choose without getting death threats from some savage barbarian from another sect, denomination, or belief system.
LMAO.. "Christians complaining about persecuted. WTF.. Don't they remember the Crusades? You know where the Christians went about persecuting and burning people at the stake for using their free will and NOT kowtowing to a false idol"
And of course we should just overlook the hundreds of thousands put to death by Muslims under their military policy of 'convert to Islam or die' after the crusades?
Let's face it - there have been plenty of people killed on all sides in the name of Religion, so no one religion has 'clean hands'.
But let's ask a simple question - "If Islam was the dominant military force in the World, does anyone think they would not use force to convert people?" That has been their policy ever since the time of Mohammad.
http://www.meforum.org/3056/islam-forced-conversions
Thanks Bush II, another mission accomplished.
Oh please don't let the insignificant fact that The Crusades were 800 - 1000 years ago impact anything!!! Idiotic post - and it always is. This is stupid on so many levels; none of which is more significant than the fact that you mention nothing of islam - a current bloody religion with a leader who believes marriage to 12 year old girls is the norm, and women are property to dispose of however you see fit.
WOW! Really idiots? Republicans aren't happy unless they have us in a war?
I guess you forget who was in office when we joined in the war known as the vietnam conflict. LBJ the liberal democrap who robbed the S.S. administration account to provide funding for his war on poverty, yet still kept escalating the U.S. involvement in Vietnam. Oh yeah, Lady birds family owned one of the largest munitions factories at that time. Hmm? I guess it isn't too hard to put that whole scheme together huh?
Korean War? - Yeah that's right, a progressive liberal democrat. You do remember Truman, right?
WWII? - Right again. A progressive liberal democrat. Do the initials F.D.R. ring a bell?
By the way there is absolute proof that F.D.R. and his buddies conspired to actually get us sucked into the war. Yeah, Pearl harbor was allowed to happen. It helped to lift us out of the depression, because we were still mired up to our asses in it. What do you think started that whole horrific conflict?
And as far as the invasion of Iraq? Yeah well, maybe not the best move we've ever made, but hey, There was a certain level of real threat in Iraq. We had just suffered our greatest single attack on soveriegn U.S. soil, and NOBODY was certain of the quality of our intelligence regarding hostiles. There was a psychological scar that still lingered from the attack on the twin towers, because the administration had recieved conflicting reports, faulty reports, completely incorrect reports, and why should they let this stone left unturned in the form of an enemy at our backs who can pop up and shoot us in the back as we are engaging the one we are looking directly at?
We didn't start that set of events. They and/or their brothers did. They attacked us and that is that. So all of you need to just quit with the finger pointing accross party lines.
The sad part is that these people are being persecuted for their religious beliefs.
Besides, This article refers to those who would destroy our constitution in a New York minute, because they don't feel that any other religion has the right to exist except their own. Now I'm not saying all muslims, But plenty enough of them to spread the blame. I have personal friends who are from Persia (iran) and they are practicing Christians. They were forced to leave that country when the religious revolution struck in 1979, and the father has expressed a wish that we had stepped in then.
There is SO much to history that the vast majority know nothing about. you make these assinine statements fueled by nothing more than your emotions and a morsel of comment you picked up form some lame duck who knows far less than he thinks he does.
Perhaps we should just keep our national nose within our own boundaries, shut our borders, (as in shoot to kill anyone attempting to cross) and let the rest of the world go @!$%# itself.
I forgot to add to above (# 1.60) when I stated who they hate more. That should have read, each other, Jews, Christians, or the U.S in general.!
...key word(s) here Ed-NavDoc are: "still free to safely"
There is coming a time in this country, REST ASSURED, that this will not be the case
Guinius
That is entirely possible. When that happens than I will gladly consider myself an outlaw and withdraw myself and my family from whatever passes for society here at that time. I am prepared to do so if necessary.
And this is why I own guns. Leave an envelope with a bullet in on my car and I will be expecting trouble/looking for you. Try to invade my church while I am in it and try to take me hostage, you will end up with a bullet in your head.
If someone is threatening your life you have a God given right to defend it. Running from the problem will not solve it, just look at history. Did running from Hitler help the majority of the Jewish people in Germany? No it did not. Did running from their masters/owners help out the majority if the slaves in America? No it did not. If I could run away or escape from all of you I would, instead I am forced to stay here and to help educate your dumb a$$es :P. Standing your ground and not running is never easy when it is your life or that of your family's lives that are on the line, but sometimes it is needed.
If the Crusades are not recent enough in history for you what about our Civil war and what was that over? MONEY. Want to talk about how the KKK the Black Panthers and other organizations tried to fuel the hatred between the races much like how groups are trying to get the religions to fight. It keeps them in money and in power, plain and simple while the sheeple fight amongst themselves. It is just like our two party political system since both parties answer to the same masters. It is all so that a small percentage of us get to live off the labor of others.
Syria is a mess to say the least and so is Egypt. They both have to go through the same growing pains, which will take some time to say the least. Better to live free (which takes more work and more responsibility) then to live under a tyrant. Education is key, but it takes time to learn and can take generations. Not like this country is still not a mess either too.
I am a humanitarian and care when any of my fellow humans are suffering regardless of their religion, race, etc. and my thoughts and prayers go out to them. I had a friend in high school named Wasseem, but he was/is Muslim.
A Christian Iraqi American rapper (also known as Chaldeans) made a music video on this topic. It was viewed as controversial and TIMZ was interviewed on FOX NEWS as well as Al Jazeera.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRiy4yfh-IM
Ed- "At least here we don't have to worry about Lutherans trying to kill Catholics...."
A few centuries ago you would have.
It wasn't until the French Revolution and the rise of nationalism that you saw tolerance between different Christian sects become law in most European countries. And even then not all,and not for non-Christian groups in many places. In Russia and the newly freed Christian Balkan states you saw "pogroms" against Jews and horrible "ethnic cleansing" against Muslims throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries. And no matter how the pro-Israelis try to include Muslims in that crime,it was Christians that in the Holocaust murdered almost 6 million Jews,just for being Jews.Even today there are stories about the massacre of Muslims in southern Thailand and in Burma.All religions have a history of intolerance towards others,that only non-religious secular governments has been able to curb.
There has been a Christian community in Iraq since before the rise of Islam. And through the centuries,in peace and war, tolerance and persecution,it had survived and was almost 2 million people at the time of our invasion.It's one of the worst tragedies of Bush's Iraq war,that that war destroyed that community.The war polarized the Mideast to such an extent that Christians there are looked at as potential traitors. And a once secular society has become segmented into,a religion above all theocracy.
Uncle Bob
"A few centuries ago you would have."
Bob, you are correct but I was referring to now and not then. The ethnic cleansing continues to this date.
"At least here we don't have to worry about Lutherans trying to kill Catholics...."
No, but if you live in Northern Ireland today there is always the fear that Protestants and Catholics will start killing each other again soon. Why from 1960 to the mid-1990s both sides devoted considerable effort to killing each other in retail fashion, so I’d hardly say Christianity has come that far
You gotta wonder what side our dear leader is on. He seems to hate jews and Christians and embraces Islamic radicals like the Mulism brotherhood. Maybe next time we actually vet a supposed American president that spent extensive time in radical countries and had communist nut job radical parents and influences. Progressives are quickly finding themselves a bad joke once again. They will have to be put back into the bottle for another 100 years. Perhaps we'll find a cure this time for the cancer called "Progressivism"
Such a long thread to say that religion and it's people have been killing each other over faith for thousands of years. Hell until in recent memory the Irish tore apart Belfast over if you were Orange or Green. I do have a good idea that most will agree on. How about if we send the Westboro Church to Syria? That will only make things better here.
nuff said.
ISLAM -----the religion of peace !!!! B U L L $ H I T ......suicide bombers, beheading Christians etc,etc,etc.....,
Invading a foreign country that didn't hurt us is not a Christian thing to do. Our government which is made up primarily of Christians might be the face of aggression to them too. Iraq had nothing to do with 911 and it had no WMD's!! We have mucked up every country we "liberated" , and the Iraqi Christians were not bothered until our invasion. We should get out of Iraq.
Have you ever heard of Christians bombing clinics and murdering doctors and nurses in the US....?
Christians haven't always been the nicest either. Look back at history. Even now, they are some, "Christians" who claim the religion but do not follow the teachings of Jesus.
Yah muttpack, I hear about those wacko Christians bombing abortion clinics and murdering 'doctors' and nurses all the time. At least as often as the Islamists do. NOT!
What an inept comparison. I can't remember the last bombing, and yet Iraq and the middle east endure them DAILY.
correct, Boom, it's been 5 years since an abortion doctor was murdered and that killer was brought to justice.
This is what you should expect when religion takes the front seat in politics. This is why the Founders saw the need to separate church and state in America.
The Crusades. The Spanish Inquisition. You think Christianity's immune? Far from it.
I have to agree that Cheney is a war criminal and the W is too!
What was the real reason he wanted to topple Sadaam? To get at the oil? Really would like to know why the world was lied to and pushed into this war under false pretences.
the price has been astronomical in lives destroyed and deaths and $$
It is the biggest mistake since Viet Nam...so sad and disappointing! As a patriotic American, I am ashamed and just so sad.
RORSChack and Pm you are both right
LMAO. And Christianity is the religion of peace? BULLSHOT. Remember the Crusades? Look it up 60's Vet.
90's Gulf War era vet here!
I remember those peaceful Christians (Catholics and Protestants) in Northern Ireland not so long ago.
420:
The Crusades? You mean those wars that were fought 1,000 years ago as a defensive response to 300 years of unrestrained violent Islamic expansion (Islam: 'Convert or Die') across Northern Africa, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe? People forget that the occupying Muslims forces weren't totally kicked-out of Europe until 1492 (Spain). Thank God Charles Martel crushed the Islamist army at Tours, France in 732 or else we'd all be Muslims right now!
WW2 was started by Christian countries.
Well at least we have one thing in common. I agree with you on that statement .
Uh oh Bill you brought up the Moors... how dare you!
Yeah because the Nazi's were so Chrisitian (with their perverted mix of Druidism/Paganism/Chrisitanity/Nordic rites)? Oh and I forgot about the Japanese who are devout Catholics!
The Crusades were a series of wars taking place in Asia Minor and the Levant between 1095 and 1291, in which Western European nations engaged using the propaganda of religious expeditionary wars. The first crusade was called by Pope Urban II of the Roman Catholic Church, with the stated goal of restoring Christian access to the holy places in and near Jerusalem. The background to the Crusades was the centuries of Arab–Byzantine Wars and the Seljuq-Byzantine Wars and the recent decisive defeat of the Byzantine army by Seljuk Turks at Manzikert in 1071. The Norman conqueror Robert Guiscard's conquest of Byzantine territories added to the problems of the Byzantine Empire. In an attempt to curtail both dangers, its Emperor Alexios I sought to align Christian nations against a common enemy, requested western aid, and Pope Urban II in turn enlisted western leaders in the cause of taking back the Holy Land.[1] - wikipedia
@ExYahooUser
Congrats on winning the silver medal in dumbest comment of the day award you lost out on gold by a pretty wide margin to 420 Frees the Mind but it was still a respectable effort.
WWII was started by Germany and Japan. Although Germany's people were Christian, it's leadership was not nor were they fighting in the name of Christianity. Japan was Shinto, Buddhist, and/or following a cult of the Emperor.
All religions stink.
ISLAM -----the religion of peace !!!! B U L L $ H I T
When we talk about others, we should also remember our own HISTORY..the crusades in the middle ages hundreds of thousands in the holy land without discriminating were killed, Muslims as well as eastern Christians and Jews..The Spanish Inquisition in 1552, millions of Muslims and Jews were forced to change their religion, leave the land or be killed .Native Americans were slaughtered by the tens of millions, I guess Muslims have a hand in it,or did they? the European colonisation of Africa, Asia and the middle East, killing millions, enslaving millions and stealing their resources, I guess Muslims have a hand in it, or did they?..In WWI over 60 million people were killed...WWII and the list goes on, don't tell me Islam and Muslims did all Of that..come on .. IT IS THE SO CALLED PEACEFUL CHRISTIANS DID IT WHILE SPREADING THE MESSAGE OF PEACE ALL OVER THE WORLD..Can you deny that?
@maibra
Let's also not forget what the Muslims did to spark the Crusades in the first place. Were Christians blameless, no absolutely not. But it was a WAR between two religious ARMIES where atrocities were committed on both sides, that ended OVER 700 YEARS AGO. What in the holy heck does that have to do with terrorism against innocents TODAY? How is it even remotely logical to hold a faith responsible for the actions of its followers 900-700 years in the past? Are you going to condemn Islam for invading Persia in 644 and demanding they convert or die next?
The Spanish Inquisition was a direct response to the Muslim conquest of Iberia and their expulsion after 1492. It was intended to ensure that Muslims and Jews weren't just saying yes I believe in Jesus, then continuing to practice their faith. Was it messed up, yes absolutely, did it get out of hand, that's well documented, but if my homeland was conquered and me and my ancestors were subjected and suffered persecution for the past 700 years I'd be pretty pissed too.
The conquest of the Americas, Africa, Asia, and the Middle East was about enriching Kingdoms and later Nation States. Gaining converts for Christianity was important because their faith was important to many of them but that was a minor reason at best.
WWI was about mutual defensive pacts between the Nations of Europe again, NOT about religion.
WWII was about racism and oil and as I stated earlier "WWII was started by Germany and Japan. Although Germany's people were Christian, its leadership was not nor were they fighting in the name of Christianity. Japan was Shinto, Buddhist, and/or following a cult of the Emperor."
With the gigantic caveat to all of this being the Ottoman Empire (an Islamic Caliphate) was involved in WWI (when they weren't too busy committing genocide against the Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians), people of all faiths including Islam were doing or would have done similarly horrendous things during the time periods listed, and WWII might be the most justifiable war in all of written
history and it had absolutely nothing to do with the faiths of the people involved.
People act like religion is the direct cause of all this death and destruction in the past but really, it's just an excuse and lack of faith resulted in the exact same thing (Mongolian Empire ring any bells it caused around 60 million deaths).
The reason we condemn Islam is most of what you listed was people who happened to be Christians committing acts on behalf of their national government that is NOT the same thing as Muslims who continue to commit large scale campaigns of terror directly in the name of Islam name. We no longer do that or severely condemn and punish those who do; we don't celebrate in the streets when a Christian blows up an abortion clinic, we hunt down Serbian war criminals and try them before The Hague, we send IRA and Ulster Volunteer Force terrorists to jail for life. There does that answer your questions.
Two things:
a) wars predicated on religion, with the exception of those instigated by the Islamic peoples, pretty much went out of style at least a hundred years ago. When was the last time you heard of a non-Islamic country (or Israel, since they are usually the other side of late in the Islamic ones) fighting a war *specifically because* the other country was of a different religion than themselves?
b) The Iraqi Christian exodus started a LONG time before the First Gulf War. I live in the San Diego area, and at that time, I was in eighth grade. We had several families at my (Catholic) school where the parents were Christian refugees who had left Iraq in the mid-70s (around the time Saddam first came to power), most of the children having been born in the US. My class was about 35% Iraqi, and so was my younger sister's... and her Girl Scout troop. (Unlike the Muslims, Christian Iraqis don't discriminate against their females.) Our church regularly had a Sunday afternoon Mass in Aramaic (we don't anymore, as they raised the money to build their own church). Our school's librarian - also the mother of one of my classmates - had a master's degree (library science) from the University of Baghdad. Today, if you drive down Main Street in my particular suburb, about 30-40% of the businesses (excluding national brands, and it may be higher than that) are ethnic Arabic restaurants, markets, etc, including a bilingual Christian bookstore (English and Aramaic).
The Iraq War was a US war of aggression based on blatant lies that were known to be lies at the time. (French intelligence, the best in the region, told them there were no WMD in Iraq.) Those who used those lies to justify their aggression are war criminals, most specifically, Bush, Blair, Cheney and all their henchman such as Rice, Wolfowitz and Rumsfield. They committed exactly the same crime as the Nazis aggressors who the US hung after trials at Nuremberg ending WWII. The end result of their aggression is the catastrophe we see today. All this blood is on their hands and justice calls for their prosecution.
So what did WE do with that information?
Freedom Fries.
I knew at the time that even if Iraq had WMD's, they weren't going to do anything with them. BTW, poison gas is not a WMD. It is a localized weapon no more "mass destructive" than napalm.
Tell that to the Kurds and to the Vietnamese who were bombed with napalm.
Your facts are somewhat askew. We knew Saddam had chemical weapons because we gave them to him in the 80's and he used them against Iran. They are largely ineffective in open ground against troops prepared for them. We blew them up in the first Gulf War but we didn't know if we got them all. That turncoat turkey Iraqi convinced the CIA that a fertilizer plant in Iraq was in fact making CW. Plus, Saddam was paying Palestinians $25,000.00 to blow themselves up in Israel. The Jews put tremendous pressure on Bush to stop this. This all came to an unfortunate head when the Iraqi's were caught making missiles to shoot into Israel. If you remember Saddam cut them all up and Azziz promised more cooperation but the die was cast. All you can do now is say enough is enough! Some of those chemical weapons made their way to Syria and will or are being used now.
We didn't need wmd's. They broke sanctions and refused inspections that they agreed to.
Our problem was trying to remake it in our image.
Hells Bells, The Japs were Catholics. Mmmmmm Wonder why the Emperor was considered God? The only problem is that religion did not start WWll. The dream of a very deranged Goof named Hitler kicked this one off.
When Bush launched the 2003 Iraq war, his advisers warned him that calling it a crusade was a big mistake, i'm guessing those christians in Iraq are now paying for his figure of speech huh?
That's partly why Bush cut the US attacking force by nearly half....thus elongating the war....and also not to appear "too powerful" to neighboring allied countries.
In addition...when our only options for president in 2000 and 2004 consisted of Bush, Gore, or Kerry, the country was pretty much screwed in one way or another because all of them are nitwits.
We should be sending aid packages over there.......like more Bibles.
OH YES..We made Iraq a better place! We destroyed the place, installed and trained a more corrupt regime than before. Still killing each other to this day. George and the neo-cons did the world good there, and made lots of money making the world and us an unsafer place.
Same senario in Egypt, Libya, Afghanistan, now Obama sending troops all over the African Continent. Now trying to stir up trouble in Asia with the "refocus on Asia" to keep the sea lanes open, that no Asian country wants closed anyway. Just another lie by USA politicians.
I didn't support the war in Iraq from the beginning, but at the end of the day, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to persecute Christians, or Sunni's, or Shiite's, or whoever else is getting killed. Each individual over there is responsible for his or her own decisions and actions. Was Bush wrong to invade Iraq? Yes, of course he was. Were we wrong to hang around for so long and try to "mold" their government? Yes, of course we were. However, that doesn't mean that the people over there right now who are persecuting others are not responsible for what they're doing. Everyone blames Bush, or the Republicans, or just politicians in general. But the people in Iraq today planting the bombs and pulling the triggers are adults, and they must be held accountable for their own choices.
Not Liking Saudi Royal Rule? No Freedom of Religion or Equal Rights for Women in Saudi Arabia and its growing Muslim Kingdom which includes Libya, Egypt, & Iraq.
What do you mean "the growing Muslim Kingdom? All the countries you mention were all already muslim for hundreds if not over a thousand years.. As an American woman I would never live or visit those places, as they treat their cattle better than their females especially in Afganistan. They are not perfect societies BUT it is THEIR society and it is not for us to invade.
Our only interest in those countries is because of ouir addiction to oil. If they grew tulips we wouldn't give a fig about them.
Vera - Junior High World History class ain't educatin your sorry white trash ass. The History of the Middle East is your weakness - know nothin, say nothin honky.
Except we get most of our oil from South Amercia... whoops! So, what is our fancination with those countries?
Auntie jemima: I guess English on any level is not your strong point and while you criticized my facts, you didn't illuminate the conversation with any facts because, no doubt you have none.
This honky reads to children in the inner city to encourage them to read and I can say with confidence that most of those 9 year olds have a better grasp of the English language than you.
@auntie jemima
That fuking comment you made about Vera was really disgusting. Keep your racist fuking rant off the Vine.
This is for you auntie jamima.
""I didn't like Saddam Hussein, but he didn't bother the Christians," said Rana,..." He didn't bother any religion which did not try to force its beliefs on others, and those which did were dealt with terminally. Too bad G Dubyah Bush read only the sports pages (as confirmed publicly by Barbara Bush). Maybe Jesus told him to get rid of Saddam. Iran sure was happy about it.
"I didn't like Saddam Hussein, but he didn't bother the Christians," said Rana,...Saddam didn't bother any religion which did not try to force its beliefs on others, and those which did were dealt with terminally. Too bad G Duhbya Bush read only the sports pages (as confirmed publicly by Barbara Bush). Maybe Jesus told him to get rid of Saddam; Iran sure was happy about it.
Bush's war on Iraq was a HUGE foreign policy blunder that we will be paying for decades. Thank you, GOoPers and Bush...
It wasn't a blunder, it was treason for profit.
Iraq was like rolling over an old log in the woods and watching all the insects come scampering out. Metaphorically speaking...America should stop trying to control pests in other parts of the world and focus resources on cleaning up it's own pest infested house, particularly the one in DC.
I see many of you are living in the past. TODAY, Islamist are killing Christians.... Are you ok with that?
Islamists and Christians have been fighting for centuries, except for the time Israel and Egypt had common enemies in Biblical times and helped each other. Nothing America can do will truly stop the killing, other than complete obliteration of one of the sides. It's is such a massive scale that it's unlikely true peace will ever be had until something really "big" happens.
Progressive Liberals around the world and the Left Wing media have little pity for Christians dying, though they would never profess it aloud. Well....some might.
Past? Um no. There are still plenty of "christians' who are not actually Christ like.
And I see many people who are ignoring the past.
And there are others who are looking at the past as justification for the atrocities of today. "Well, look at the Crusades! Those dang Chrisitans deserve it now!"
Really?
Well, your great great grandfather shot my great great grandfather, so I'm going to shoot you now as recompense. So, it's ok as long as we have a justification for what happened in the past to "equalize" the wrongs of today?
How incredibly foolish.
No argument from me on that. It's why we have no peace between Israel and their neighbors. Why Northern Ireland is still a powder keg. The list goes on and on and on. The sins of the fathers and all that... We're great at remembering the atrocities visited upon us, not so good at remembering the atrocities we've visited on others. "Oh, but that was then, this is now..."
But I will say this - without studying the past, you have no hope of understanding the present or anticipating the future.
History is a hard teacher for some to accept. It is not ok that Christians are being killed. Outside of getting more involved in Iraq than we are now, what do you think should be done?
Nope. What are we going to do about it, though? Invade?
Invade ??? What are you worry about? Those Christians over there have Jesus on their side because Jesus saves. All the times being spent on preaching about faith.......let's put that to a test, shall we....?
Even if Hussein was bad, he sure knew how to keep his thumb on the crazies. When he ruled you didn't have the problems over there that you have now. Sometimes that is what it takes. Now we have unleashed the crazies over there. Not good.
The Christians now have it better ,thei do not have to live Iraq.
Now they enjoy the better live in other countries.
People who have never known any government but tyranny take out their frustrations and hatreds on others of different religions, races, cultures, and political views.
This article is about Iraq, not America. Stay focused!
The article is about religion.
an envelope wedged against her car windshield. Inside was a bullet -- a message that meant she and her family were next on an assassin’s list.
In Amerika we would have to use those foam Nerf bullets in an envelope. Homelyland Security bought up all the ammunition.
Iraq needs some one who can rule it with a Iron Fist. It is the only way.
They can have George w Bush.
Saddam was a tyrant but he protected the Christians in his country..thanks Bush Cheney ..now Christians have to run
He did not protect them he just paid no attention to them man will you DEMS please learn how to read......
"I didn't like Saddam Hussein, but he didn't bother the Christians,"
lasertroll This article is not the only source of information regarding how Saddam interacted with the Christians. I doubt a Christian would have to do much Saddam did not like to get killed by his regime, but he did have a Christian in his cabinet.
Saddam was a tyrant but he protected the Christians in his country..thanks Bush Cheney ..now Christians have to run
And Democrats voted for it.
yep they let themselves to be brain washed
Obama voted against
Larry--the Democrats ,like the rest of the country were LIED TOO. Bush,Cheney's ,Rumsfeldt's , Rice's, Powell's lies convinced a very reluctant Democratic few to support O.I.L. -Operation Iraqi Liberation but really it WAS the oil......& Saddam.
Iraq just needs a community organizer; then they can have peace like South Chicago.
Chicago was safer until the NRA forced them to lift their ban on guns. It's not even in the top ten in the US for homicide rate, even today.
He did not protect them he just paid no attention to them man will you DEMS please learn how to read......
"I didn't like Saddam Hussein, but he didn't bother the Christians,"
PM NYC: "Obama voted against"...too bad he didn't vote against million dollar vacations for himself and his family once he was elected. I think I'll ask Pope Francis to pray daily for our President. At least the Pope knows how to fix his own dinner.
Dumb then, dumb now.
The Iraq war was a huge waste for all those except the buddies of the politicians that lied about the WMD. They all got filthy rich from the death and suffering of thousands of other less fortunate souls. If this isn't criminal, I don't know what is.
Handing over anything, little lone a country, to a bunch of Muslum bullies is the most foolish thing that the U.S. has ever done.
I guess there is more to just the looks that make W. and Alfred E. Newman the same. "What, me worry". Dumb, greedy, criminal.
Hahahaha ... Mission accomplished, Bush ! .. LOL !!
Islam is such a tolerant religion.
when we kill there women and children...with no cause what do you expect so call Christian man
what do you mean "we" Muslim Elvis?
We don't kill "there (sic)" women and children, they kill "there (sic)" women and children. Shi'ites killing Sunnis and Sunnis killing Shi'ites and Muslims killing Christians and enslaving people in Africa...
Sorry Larry, but US forces attacked Iraq first and killed tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians. Before Bush's invasion, Iraq didn't suffer from bombing of civilians by religious extremists.
No, but their civilians suffer now, Yahoo, from their extremists. That AND the soldiers had in a lot of cases either no choice or the missles just weren't accurate enough to only blow up the bad guys. It makes it especially hard when as Muslims, they don't really regard women and children very high on their list, and so don't really mind using them as human shields... So, yeah civilians die. It's not like every soldier coming back from the desert is a bona fide baby killer with notches on his rifle to mark how many innocents he's killed. They're using innocents to blow up our men and women out there and they are just trying to survive.
They only reason Iraq didn't suffer before was because Saddam would quietly kill/purge them Stalin style. You know, that way it doesn't make the news.
Awwww. Christians are persecuted. Call the whaaaaaaaaaaambulance.
How many people have Christians persecuted over the millenia?
Agreed Tim,
As a Christian, I am aware and frightened by the history.
BUT, can we all agree this happened hundreds, thousands of years ago?
no one can number
No this was not to long ago hitlers own words
Hitler's religious beliefs and fanaticism
(Selected quotes from Mein Kampf)
compiled by Jim Walker
People often make the claim that Adolph Hitler adhered to Atheism, Humanism or some ancient Nordic pagan mythology. None of these fanciful and wrong ideas hold. Although one of Hitler's henchmen, Alfred Rosenberg, did undertake a campaign of Nordic mythological propaganda, Hitler and most of his henchmen did not believe in it .
Many American books, television documentaries, and Sunday sermons that preach of Hitler's "evil" have eliminated Hitler's god for their Christian audiences, but one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that Hitler's God equals the same God of the Christian Bible. Hitler held many hysterical beliefs which not only include, God and Providence but also Fate, Social Darwinism, and ideological politics. He spoke, unashamedly, about God, fanaticism, idealism, dogma, and the power of propaganda. Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear:
Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible's God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery's coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.) Many have questioned Hitler's stand on Christianity. Although he fought against certain Catholic priests who opposed him for political reasons, his belief in God and country never left him. Many Christians throughout history have opposed Christian priests for various reasons; this does not necessarily make one against one's own Christian beliefs. Nor did the Vatican's Pope & bishops ever disown him; in fact they blessed him! As evidence to his claimed Christianity, he said:
Hitler's anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Christian Austria and Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior status to Aryan Christians. Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, "On the Jews and their Lies," Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War II. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther.
Hitler did not have to parade his belief in God, as so many American Christians do now. Nor did he have to justify his Godly belief against an Atheist movement. He took his beliefs for granted just as most Germans did at that time. His thrust aimed at politics, not religion. But through his political and religious reasoning he established in 1933, a German Reich Christian Church, uniting the Protestant churches to instill faith in a national German Christianity.
Future generations should remember that Adolph Hitler could not have come into power without the support of the Protestant and Catholic churches and the German Christian populace.
The following quotes provides some of Hitler's expressions of his belief in religion, faith, fanaticism, Providence, and even a few of his paraphrasing of the Bible. It by no means represents the totality of Hitler's concerns. To realize the full context of these quotes, I implore the reader to study Mein Kampf.
The purpose of this text intends to dispute the claims made by Christians that Hitler "was an atheist," or "anti-religious," and to reveal the dangers of belief-systems. This text in no way attempts to give endorsement to anti-Semitism.
@PM NYC,
Bush killed tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians in his "Crusade". They didn't attack us first. That didn't happen thousands of years ago.
Well, they declared Jihad against us... it's only fair right?
Hitler perhaps "professed" to be a Christian but there is a BIG difference between professing and living the life of a Christian according to the Bible. There are multitudes of people who "claim" to be Christians but do not live out their faith in Jesus Christ. Too many people justify their actions and lives using the Bible as a "smorgasboard" theology. Hitler was a "Judas" to true Christianity. Unfortunately, every religion has many "Judas's in it.
Elvis Payne:
Not everything that parks in a garage is a car, and Hitler the monster will answer for his own sins. You won't be answering for him. You will be answering for yourself. If you don't believe in the first place, why bring it up?
If you're using this to simply be divisive, you're an opportunistic to fight an argument. I don't see you quoting anything about Sister Teresa, C.S. Lewis, Albert Schwitzer, or Billy Graham. Why not? They're all Christians. You're picking (on a biased level - without a doubt) and choosing the very worse you can find - and there was nothing in Hitler's writings that attributed the Christian faith to him. This is punk writing - and dishonest.
All Christians from all Muslim countries must be allowed to immigrate to non-muslim countries as they will all be exterminated by Islam, the religion of peace and love.