We are the only species to worship God because we are the only species to be intelligent and therefore able to understand the concept of God. We are the only species to worship God because we are above dogs, cats, cows, pigs and our other Lesser Brothers (as Saint Francis called them).

Nobody says that God looks like a white guy - the Church teaches us that God is all powerful and therefore can manifest himself in any shape He wishes - or even not have any shape at all. In the Bible the one description of God we can find is that of a burning bush. Therefore I really have no idea why would you say that Church pictures God as a white guy...

he's thinking of Jesus and doesn't know enough to realize he's showing his ignorance.

it makes sense that an all knowing God that wanted to manifest himself to a people would come as one looking like them so they could relate to them. moses didnt really know God when he came to him in the burning bush, he knew moses wouldnt have taken an ordinary man seriously as being God , so he used something moses knew was supernatural. a bush on fire that was not consumed.

@ maciej

He's more or less referring to the European interpretation of Jesus being white, when clearly, if the man even existed, he was mostly likely a dark-skinned Jew who looked like other people from the region. To this day, people can't seem to shed that less than accurate depiction of their so-called "savior".

maciej!

What a crippling statement you've made.

The human race's biggest problem is this idea that we are above animals and nature and that, therefore, anything we do is part of "God's plan" for us.

We are so arrogant and prideful!

We are destroying nature – destroying the very precious thing that we say was created by God.

Humans are overpopulating the planet and causing massive habitat loss, mass extinctions and climate change.

Is that part of us being "the only species to be intelligent?"

We are the "lesser brother" when it comes to issues of war and peace, the defense of nature and God's beautiful earth.

Look. If your argument is that God is in charge, and that we "intelligent" humans are playing out his plan, wow ... are we in trouble!

We are stripping the earth of it's animals and it's natural treasures and studding the Vatican with those treasures.

The pope is a BILLIONAIRE maciej.

I admire his commitment to "the poor". But what about his commitment to the rights of women (we are an inferior, subservient class per the church's teachings). What about the billions the church has invested in the mining and land holding corporations raping the earth?

Have you heard him say he plans to divest the church of all of these trappings and wealth and repression?

"Faith" that does not support the most fundamental forms of justice for all living things is not true faith at all. It is the false God called greed.

dear make progress

I respectfully disagree with some parts of your statement, beginning with the fact that Pope is a billionnaire - he personally owns very little - the Church owns a lot, but the income of its placements and other estate is at every given moment used to 1) run Catholic hospitals and schools (this is the biggest expense of the Church) 2) cover the costs of Church operations around the world (you may serve the Lord but you still has to pay the utilities bills of churches) 3) provide assistance to the poor by the Church charities 4) cover the costs of missionaries. Popes live well, but they certainly do not have the lifestyles of billionnaires.

As for the part about nature, I believe that part of your anger at what people do comes from a mistaken belief that Nature and its welfare should be placed above Humanity and its welfare. With respect, that actually is a pagan approach - deifing forests, rivers, plants and animals and giving them priority over human welfare. In fact this world was made for us, humans, to enjoy and use it as we wish - of course we must be careful not to damage it to the point threatening our survival, and it is obvious that some of the natural treasures shoud be preserved at all price because of their great beauty, but other than that this world was given to us by God so we use it and make it serve us. Period.

Gods in control, to a point, he gave us free will, i think the idea of God being IN CONTROL is misinterpreted, we are not puppets, rather i think God already knows whats going to happen before we do it, therefore nothing that happens suprises him so in essense he is in control.

maciej

We are the only species to worship God because we are the only species to be intelligent and therefore able to understand the concept of God. We are the only species to worship God because we are above dogs, cats, cows, pigs and our other Lesser Brothers (as Saint Francis called them).

Nobody says that God looks like a white guy - the Church teaches us that God is all powerful and therefore can manifest himself in any shape He wishes - or even not have any shape at all. In the Bible the one description of God we can find is that of a burning bush. Therefore I really have no idea why would you say that Church pictures God as a white guy...

Macie,

I think the original poster was telling you a fact. There are other religions out there. There are also plenty of greek/roman/Persian/Nordic, et al Gods out there.

That shows a certain fact: That man has a penchant for making gods. That does not bode well for you because that makes the chance that yours is simply one more very very likely.

Factor in other religions that resemble nothing like abrahamic religion and it makes it extremely likely that your religion is completely man made.

So, Chuck, what is it that you worship? Your car?

I find it refreshing to have a Pope (I am not Catholic or religious at all) who at least voices these ideas. It can't hurt to remind that we should have mercy on the poor and downtrodden, that we should protect the earth and its creatures.

Religion is at the heart of so much that is hurtful, much of the death and destruction today is founded in the religion of those who perpetuate war or cowardly acts, but religion also teaches principles that are at the very foundation of civil society...a quandary for those, like me, who think the world would be better off if we all just learned to respect each other, to take this life and live it as if there will never be another because then, we might just have a chance of actually seeing the value of life as supreme and begin treating it accordingly.

dear losghost

Greek, Roman, Nordic and Persian "gods" are no more worshipped (although I greatly enjoy reading mythologies). They were all man made "gods" indeed - and therefore their cults couldn't survive when facing the TRUE religion, revealed by the TRUE Messiah, who came from the TRUE GOD (with capital G).

maciej - It is not pagan to want to protect nature. But it is selfish to see it as you do, something to be used up. Something given to you. Something you own. Yes, we should take from nature what we need to survive, but we are raping the land bare. We are filling the oceans with trash, we are solely responsible for the extinction of entire species, we are poisoning the groundwater with practices such as fracking, poisoning the atmosphere. There is no balance any more. And you cannot sit there and say that it is ok because God made the world for us. For us to destroy? I don't think so, and it's really quite sad that you believe that. Signed, a nature-loving Christian.

"We are the only species to worship God because we are the only species to be intelligent and therefore able to understand the concept of God."

Really maciej? And there is proof that no other species are intelligent enough to understand the concept of our Creator? How many species declare war on each other like humans do, kill each other for greedy reasons, drop bombs on the innocent, force others to pay taxes so they can stay on a spending spree, treat each other like dirt, yet declare they are the only ones who understand the concept of a Creator?

Intelligent maciej? Human intelligence is left at the door, when they are ego maniacal and self centered and think of themselves as above, or more intelligent than other species. I have been around dogs and cats that put humans to shame when it comes to love and understanding.

dear Marie

I am all in favour of protecting the nature when things go too far and I have good news for you: the developped countries protect nature quite efficiently - and as more and more countries join this category, nature is protected more and more. I believe also your vision is extremely pessimistic - what does that mean that there is no more balance? How exactly do we poison the atmosphere?

I didn't say that God made the world for us to destroy it and we are NOT destroying it. We are CHANGING it, making it serve us - it is different. We need energy, we need wood, we need to produce more food, we need to produce more wealth - all of this because there is still so much misery in the world. And only development and economic growth can make the misery disappear.

But I have also more good news for you. Look at pictures showing great industrial centers in northern Europe in the end of XIX century - they indeed look like the country of Mordor! But today, one hundred years late, the same areas are covert with green - because the heavy industry, based on coal and steel, played it role, created the wealth and dragged millions of people out of misery - and vanished. The same thing happens daily on the whole planet - in every place where progress kill old industries to create new ones, nature very quickly recovers.

This is the world God gave to us and we are entitled to submit it to our needs - and we must not submit ourselves to it. It would be not only idol worshipping, but it would be also the betrayal of those people who still suffer great misery.

maciej

dear losghost

Greek, Roman, Nordic and Persian "gods" are no more worshipped (although I greatly enjoy reading mythologies). They were all man made "gods" indeed - and therefore their cults couldn't survive when facing the TRUE religion, revealed by the TRUE Messiah, who came from the TRUE GOD (with capital G).

Macie,

Zoroastrianism is still an active, practiced religion today.

Every active religion today claims to be the one TRUE religion. When greek/roman religion was active, it was the one TRUE religion.

What testable, demonstrable evidence can you provide to support your claim? If you cannot, then it is not *TRUE* it's simply *ASSERTED*.

dear Only in America

You are of course right - humans can do (and indeed do) great evil, whereas animals are innocent (well, mostly - I once knew a doberman who was a REAL bastard - but I digress...). But this is the result of us having both advanced intelligence, knowledge of good and evil and free will to choose - all great and precious God's gifts. Animals did not receive them - and therefore they are below us and indeed are our Lesser Brothers.

(that being said, I really hope my first, last and only dog is currently living a happy after life in the Land of Permanent Hunt - or in her case rather in Land of Permanent Cat Nap, pun very much intentional).

Maciej, have you ever witnessed or studied a pack of wild wolves? They are more blessed and loving than you could ever imagine. When one of their elder wolves are sick they go out and hunt food for them and bring it back and feed them. When a parent wolf dies with pups, another wolf automatically takes the pups and raises and loves it as its own. Of course, whites believe wolves should be slaughtered to extinction, mostly ranchers and farmers who stole the land they had for their ranges. Then you have all those wonderful big game hunters who love to shoot from afar, bitching because wolves may kill an elk or two, or kill a cow or sheep or two just to survive.

White man really has no idea or connection with the Earth...well that is too general of a statement, a lot of them have no idea or connection with the Earth. They see it as something to rape and use and the hell about the other species we have driven to extinction.

Mankind may be in fact intelligent, etc as you describe, but they are also the most ignorant, stupid self serving entities ever created. They seem to have absolutely no problem destroying the Earth for their temporary existence on this plane of life. They ignore that EVERYTHING is interconnected, what is done to one species affects all other species.

Let's take Keystone XL and the other pipeline they want to build. What would happen is, huge super tankers would go into the BC area, where small boats can barely navigate, where even a cruise ship that hit a reef there and sank caused incredible damage to the environment. Now they swear there will NEVER be a tanker to hit any of the tiny reefs and will navigate places where again, even small boats cannot navigate without harm. Yet ONE massive oil spill, which would be one hundred times the Exxon Valdez, would literally destroy a whole ecosystem that is the lifeblood of many, many indegionous Natives and wildlife. The bear, wolves etc depend on the salmon in this area and so do the Natives. One oil spill would wipe this out for centuries.

This is just one example of idiots putting profits before humanity, the environment and others.

We are the only species to worship God because we are the only species to be intelligent and therefore able to understand the concept of God. We are the only species to worship God because we are above dogs, cats, cows, pigs and our other Lesser Brothers (as Saint Francis called them).

This is a ridiculous statement. Who are you to say what the true measure of intelligence (emotional or intellectual) is anyway? I mean, you are measuring intelligence by human standards are you not? That alone makes you biased and unable to see the bigger picture. All you are doing is reiterating what you have read or have been told in the bible because that is what you live your life by and you refuse to see reason outside that bubble. We are not above anything. People like you just think we are. There are, in fact, animals that are just as intelligent as we are. It is just human arrogance that says there are not. Animals aren't selfish the way humans are, and they aren't arrogant and spiteful the way humans are. Those are not things that work in the favor of humans either, and it often makes me wonder who really is the more superior species. I'll tell you one thing. I have owned both cats and dogs in my life. And never, not once, has any human showed me the kind of acceptance and unconditional love that these animals have shown me. Not once. Unfortunately, people like you see that love as some kind of weakness to exploit.

Religion is at the heart of so much that is hurtful

I would change that to "Human Beings are at the heart of so much that is hurtful":

Why? Simply because religion is just one of the ideology/belief system that human beings use to hurt each other. We also use race and nationality to hurt each other and at the heart of all this hurt is greed and the need for power.

dear Jaime

I am not certain if I really deserved such a violent reaction and especially the last sentence...

That being said, although I sincerely love animals (I never fully recovered from the death of my first and only dog) it would never cross my mind to consider them equal to people. I am really sorry, but if you sincerely think that there are animals as intelligent as we, humans, well, you are greatly mistaken.

I am really, really sorry that in all your life no human showed you the kind of unconditional love cats and dogs showed you (albeit I am curious - what would your parents think of such a statement?).

Not willing to burst your buble, I must honestly disagree about the non-selfishness of animals. One animal, may be - but from the moment you have a pack of them, even small, the strong will beat the crap outof the weak, take the best food and leave to the weak the scraps... And, unlike with most of people, they will not have any remorse about it.

Loving animals and elevating them to the same status as humans are two very different things.

I wonder if a "good catholic", like Rick Santorum, will start supporting environmental protection?

dear Frank

If you are really of Native-American background, I would like to kindly remind you, that your ancestors blitzkrieged and destroyed American mega-fauna in barely one thousand years from their arrival to the New World some 14 000 years ago... On another hand the whole idea of natural parks and nature preservation was conceived initially almost exclusively by the white people. So please tone down your racism.

Giving wolves us an example of moral behaviour to humans really seems a little bit excessive...

maciej, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I am not going to delve into the proof of animal intelligence because you will never agree no matter what anyone says. You are obviously set in your superior beliefs. I see you did not answer my question about how you measure intelligence. If it is something beyond a human measure or standards of intelligence then I digress, but I doubt it is. Have you ever heard the famous quote by Albert Einstein that says "Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing it is stupid." I think that's fitting here. Human standards of intelligence are not the end all be all measure of intelligence. They may measure human intelligence, but you can't use it as a measure of intelligence across all species. To do so is arrogant. As for my parents, you have no idea the household I grew up in and shouldn't assume I am offending them by saying this. Not everyone grows up with the Brady Bunch.

jaime1234

Let's agree to disagree. I will stay with Saint Francis on that one - he greatly loved animals and asked people to not harm them without a really good reason - but he also called them "Our Lesser Brothers". Operative words being both "lesser" and "brothers".

Best regards

"Animals did not receive them - and therefore they are below us and indeed are our Lesser Brothers."

Again, you state something that you have no proof of, and still you see yourself above them. It's like saying, even though animals come from the Creator, just like us, that places them below us. Do you even notice the type of picture that you paint? I really don't believe that you do. As the old saying goes, forgive them father, for they know not what they do. I say this, and I am not even a religious person.

They were all man made "gods" indeed - and therefore their cults couldn't survive when facing the TRUE religion, revealed by the TRUE Messiah, who came from the TRUE GOD (with capital G).

Tell me something: How did Judaism survive after the birth of Christ, since they do not recognize Jesus as their Lord and Savior?

dear only in America

I will recant all my statements on the intelligence of our "Lesser Brothers" when I see a bear (or any other animal) using fire...

I will recant all my statements on the knowledge of good and evil by animals when I see a really hungry lion sparing (on purpose) the life of a cute newborn zebra...

I will recant all my statements on the lack of free will amongst animals when I see a cat female in heat refusing to have any sex...

dear huskergal

Jews carry the tradition of the First Alliance - it is therefore only right that they endured - all conservative Catholic I am, I would hate to see the world in which there is no more people to pray to "Lord of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob"

So the new Pope wants the rest of us to do more for "the poor" while opposing any and all forms of contraception...thus confirming that there will be more of "the poor" for us to take care of.

Good luck with that !

It's interesting that the Church says that its policies are inviolable, yet they have changed from time to time throughout their history. I am encouraged that this pope wants protection for the Earth's environment, when at one time, 'nature' and anything natural was considered the devil by the Catholic Church.

i see they took all of number 1 comments off to many think the Pope is on the right track funny how msn censors things they don't like

Here it comes......

A plea for the United Nations to "demand" more IMF money from member nations for World redistribution and it will be coming from Pope Francis.

I can see it now......Mr. Obama's new golfing buddy.

Amazing.

maciej

They were all man made "gods" indeed - and therefore their cults couldn't survive when facing the TRUE religion, revealed by the TRUE Messiah, who came from the TRUE GOD (with capital G)

I believe that has more to do with the specific tenants of your, so-called "true religion". You see, christianity, and all abrahamic religions, got one thing right. The best way to spread and maintain a religion is to BREED one. This includes a couple of steps: (1) No sex until marriage. (2) No marriage outside of the religion. (3) Sex only for procreation. (4) Raise your children in your religion. Many of the other "cults", as you call them, did not have such stringent rules regarding sex. Thus procreation was not monitored and controlled as closely as it is in the abrahamic religions.

But the part of your comment that really caught my attention is the "true religion" claim. I find this interesting, primarily because there is one fundamental flaw in your religion, making me question if it is "true".

You, and your brethren, believe that your God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and inherently good (as opposed to evil). You also believe that salvation, and the resulting entrance into heaven, is dependent on accepting Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. This creates an interesting problem. You see, the message of Jesus was not, and is not, everywhere at every time. This means that your God placed his children on this earth, knowing (the all-knowing part) that some would never hear the name of Jesus, and thus never have the opportunity to accept him. By your standards, these people are doomed to hell. They have no chance at salvation.

This includes the native Americans. God supposedly put millions upon millions of them on this earth, in an area before the word of Jesus crossed the ocean. Because they had not heard of your "true religion", they could not accept it. So they created their own gods. By christian standards, their souls are doomed. God knowingly placed them here, knowing they would not hear the word of Jesus, and thus never have the opportunity to be saved. This also applies to many other societies, those in Asia, early South America, Africa, etc. Literally billions of souls, placed on this earth by a god who KNEW they would never hear the name of Jesus, and never have the opportunity to be saved.

Now, would you consider a god who dooms his own children to an eternity of pain or suffering, with absolutely zero chance at salvation, a "good" god? He knew they would never hear the name of Jesus, but he placed them on the earth anyway. He doomed them to an eternity of hell, knowing they would never have the opportunity to be saved. I would not consider that "good"... seems more like a child with a magnifying glass, burning ants just because he can. It is scary to think that this is the "true religion".

Hello folks, how many centuries have we heard that the Pope will change the cult church. The new Pope will stop the rampant PEDOPHILIA in the church! The new Pope will stop drug money laundering in the church! The new Pope will disband the gay sex ring within the Cardinals. The Pope is just another figure head with no power. If he gets out of line they will give a bowl of hemlock soup.

Don't bother arguing with Catholic fundamentalists as most are nothing more than drones. During their weekly ritual they actually think they are drinking the blood of and eating the body of "Christ". It always appeared to be cannibalistic to me. They follow orders during this ritual, they kneel, they stand, they sit, they bow their head, they close their eyes all on command from a mortal man who is probably lining up his next victim from the congregation of sheeple. If they can get anybody to believe and willfully cede to their rituals, it's official, they are brainwashed.

They get their sheeple flock to believe in an old almighty powerful man with a beard that sits in the clouds and watches everything they do 24/7. The Roman Catholics are then told to be thankful that there is a god that has given them the choice to either adhere to 10 laws or to burn and choke and suffer and scream and cry and be tortured for all eternity!

But he loves you! And he needs money, he always needs more money. He is all powerful but just can't handle money.

Look at his resume, war, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Kardashian sisters. If this is the best he can do, I'm not impressed. This is not the work you would expect from an almighty being. This is the work you would expect from a temporary with a really bad attitude. With these results, he should be thrown to the curb on his almighty powerful a$$ (channeling George Carlin)!

Don't get me wrong, everyone has a right to believe in the Easter Bunny, God, Great Gazoo, Oompa Loompas, Santa Claus, Peter Pan or any other fictional character they choose to, but they don't have the right to push it off on anyone else as fact or reality!

#2.31 Bob - I see they took all of #1 comments off - too many think the Pope is on the right track. Funny how MSN censors things they don't like.

No, Bob, that's not how it works on this Vine. MSN (now NBC) did not remove those comments; they were voted down by other posters who disagreed with them. They are still viewable. I wish the moderators would do more censoring, especially of people who go on vulgar tirades calling people names, but they let people get by with a lot.

the whole 150 comments i can see one or two would like to see more not sure how to

mguy 478

Very rapidly, two things:

- who ever told you that for Christians all sex must serve precreation??? This is nonsense! According to the Church a man and a woman who are known for being unable to have children can be married if they desire so and they can make love all they want, without ever having chiuldren. BUT also according to Church, a man who was mutilated and has no sexual organs CAN NOT be married because he is unable to consumate the union and live with his wife as a man..

- the Church doesn't teach that those who never heard about Jesus will be damned. Some priests who claimed it in XVII century (jansenists) were immediately designed as heretics by the Church. God is indeed good and fair - and how fair would it be to refuse salvation to a good man, who simple never heard about Jesus? Jesus himself gave a sign about it, during his meeting with Roman centurion who asked him to heal his servant - he didn't convert, but Jesus didn't reject him...

Best regards

Bob, on my screen, I can click the + next to 'comment collapsed by community' and see what they have written and who has responded to the comment. Maybe your settings are different.

maciej

Many fundamentalists believe that sex is only for procreation, although that thought process is seen more so in America, as we are the land of "prudes". Regardless, the fact remains that all abrahamic religions were very good at breeding a religion.

Second, the very basis of christianity is salvation through Jesus. In fact, remember the report that christian leaders claimed Ghandi is "burning in hell"? Of course, every christian interprets the bible differently, so there is no accepted set of rules. But, IF simply being a "good man" is all that is required, why is there so much focus on religion? Why do christians argue and fight over it? Why spend so much time trying to "spread the word" and convert other people, when salvation only requires them to be good?

In fact, how can your religion be "true" when, according to you, it is now not required for salvation? And why argue that it is "true" when that point has no merit on saving others? It seems that spreading a message of "do good, regardless of what you believe" would be a better option than "mine is the true religion". Why even argue religion at this point?

I would hate to see the world in which there is no more people to pray to "Lord of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob"

So would I, but why should it be through a middleman? God hears us. There is only on Lord your God. He is the first as He has no Father, He is the last as he has no brother, and He is the only because he has no son. God is the Alpha and the Omega.

I seent angels and demons before.

Incline Thine ear, O HaShem, and hear; open Thine eyes, O HaShem, and see; and hear all the words of Sennacherib, who hath sent to taunt the living G-d

@mguy i believe that a just God would treat those who never heard about Christ this way, when they die and stand before God in judgement he would say, you never got to hear about Jesus, but he was beaten and nailed to a cross, and died to pay for your sins so you could be in heaven, he rose from the dead to show you he has power over death. do you believe this my child? yes=heaven , no=eternal hell seperated from God. all those who had already died at time of the crucifiction, the bible says Jesus went to hell to save those who had already died.

apples-n-oranges

That does not really support the concept of faith, being that faith revolves around a belief without proof. It seems those people, in your example, get the easy way out. It is easy to believe in something once you are in the presence of said being. It is much more difficult to believe when your god is not standing in front of you, explaining it.

In that situation, I would prefer to have never heard of Jesus. Because I am much more likely to believe when the creator is explaining it himself, as opposed to a human. I'm sure many people would feel the same way. In fact, you can save more souls if you wait to let god himself explain the story of Jesus, in your example, and ask for belief... instead of a man trying to explain the story. People are more likely to believe what they see for themselves.

I would like for him to plead with Obama, who is doing his very best to make more of us poor.

mguy very true but Jesus told a story about ppl a man hired to work in his fields the first he hired in the am and promised a days wage, at noon he found more ppl standing around and hired the as well. in the eve he found still more and hired them as well. at the end of the day he paid them ALL a days wage, the ones hired in the am ,came and complained that they should get more. he told them , did you not get paid a fair wage for a days labor? is not my money mine to do with as i wish, it is mine to give the last a days wage as well.

There's another kind of protection that would do a lot to help the environment and relieve poverty. The kind of protection that the Catholic Church says is evil. Maybe the new pope could do something about that and bring the church into the 21st century by announcing that there is nothing evil about birth control?

how about abstinance that works too....

@maciej God didn't say *I* am Jesus, he said Jesus is his beloved son when John the Baptist baptized him. And Wicca is no more of a cult than Catholicism is. Paganism was around long before Christianity was. In fact a lot of your traditions like your holidays Easter & Christmas came from the Pagan holidays Eostre & Yule aka Winter Solstice. It's why you have the Easter Bunny & dyed eggs at Easter & decorate trees & exchange gifts at Christmas cause Christians "borrowed" these from the Pagans in the hopes that they'd convert to Christianity.

maciej - the Church doesn't teach that those who never heard about Jesus will be damned. ... God is indeed good and fair - and how fair would it be to refuse salvation to a good man, who simple never heard about Jesus?

I disagree with your statement that the Church does not teach that only Catholics will go to heaven. Sister Mary Joseph taught me in fifth grade. When I asked her why it was that if God is all loving and just, that only the Catholics would go to heaven, she said "you just have to accept that on faith." A non-answer if I ever heard one. No wonder the Catholic Church is in trouble.

We Catholics do not worship Pope - we respect him however greatly as our Priest in Chief, helping us to better worship God.

Amen maciej, I am not Catholic, but I like his smile and that means a lot and I respect him as a man

of God.

Maciej,

There are hundreds of millions of people like hunu who very quickly draw [wrong] conclusions about other people, situations, or faiths without bothering to ask questions or doing a little research first.

However, I don't think hunu said that Catholics worship the Pope. Hunu just said the Pope is the middle man. According to Hunu, we should not even have pastors, rabbi, priests..... because all those people are middle men.

Hunu, you tried to look self righteous but you failed miserably at that. Very sad!!!

@ Cowboys1

Why do you need a "middleman" to communicate to an assumed omnipotent being who watches you constantly and knows everything you do? Sounds ridiculous if you ask me. Then again, a lot of that idea sounds ridiculous, but one thing at a time.

if 2 ppl ask some for something dosent that carry more weight than 1? if one of your children wanted to go to disney and you said no, but later all 5 children came asking to go, dont you think your chances have improved?

"Hunu, you tried to look self righteous but you failed miserably at that."

Oh, I wouldn't go that far Cowboys, he has a very valid point. And what's with your being so judgemental of Hunu? Self righteous? Look in a mirror first and think of who it is that is being self righteous of others.

@ apples-n-organges

So, you're reasoning for needing a "middle man" is because somehow begging god for something and having a priest beg alongside you, somehow increases your chances of having your prayers answered? Please, grow a brain.

I'll save calling your statement idiotic, and just say that your analogy is, ironically, apples to oranges.

so youve NEVER asked someone to pray for you? never asked a pastor to pray for you? ive heard it a million times from protestants, please pray for me. listen to tbn and see how many times they pray for someone. please your argument dosent even hold mud.

Did God ask this guy representing God? This is time people need to worship God directly without the middle man.

We Catholics do not worship Pope - we respect him however greatly as our Priest in Chief, helping us to better worship God.

I do not think that the middle man is the Pope; Jesus is the middle man. There is only one God in the original Abrahamic religion and in Islam. Christianity is the only religion to believe in Jesus as God. God picked and sent Jesus to the Jews to teach them how to live the word, to write it on our hearts and to put it in our mouths. If we follow - do exactly as he did- he will lead us to the throne of God.

Not true, bpfsr. Adofo Perez Esquivel, the 1980 Nobel Peace Prize recipient, has stated that Pope Francis did not collaborate with the regime during the Dirty War. This is also confirmed by Ricardi Lorenzetti, the current Argentine Supreme Court Justice. As well, one of the Jesuits who was kidnapped in 1976 named Father Jalics, whom the media has tried to accuse the pope of having handed over to the regime, has stated that this did not happen and that he and Pope Francis are good with each other.

So, bpsfr, seems that you are wrong! Now, will you recant what you have posted?

@TheFranciscan- bpfsr won't recant their post, though they are wrong, because he/she is just a hater. People choose to hold onto their beliefs despite evidence to the contrary because they hate being wrong and end up defending their own ignorance.

linasfriend

As for the rest of you commenting, no one is in the dark ages but you, and it appears you make yourself important above God. you do not have any knowledge of the Bible or the CC, you should refrain from making unintelligent comments.

Having read the comment.. it appears you think your more important then god and anyone else commenting here. Didn't God, or the book of christian fairy tales say "Do not judge, lest ye be judged?"

The book did say that. So, I guess since you don't believe you are just being a rude @!$%# and not hypocrictical?

livinglouisiana

Explain to me why I should believe a book that was written 3000 years ago, re written throughout history to control the masses by the ruling parties in power, and one that has been used to justify the murder of thousands of people throughout history?

Organized religion is man kind's worst creation and divides people. I support people's freedom of religion, but that also means I am free to live my life without their religion. One can practice and live a moral life without the bible.

I did not indicate that you should believe anything. I only pointed out that it is rude and hypocritical of you to throw bible quotes back at someone when you don't believe in it. And yes religion has been a many faceted force in the world. It has done good things as well as bad things though. Christ may not have been God but he did start something that changed the world for good. It was those who came later who perverted that message into what it is today. If all churches were to just assess what it is they believe and compared it to the ten commandments they would see that they are no longer doing Gods work anyway. He made it that simple for this very reason. Humans always over complicate things thats why there were only ten. And even if we believed in no God, those ten things still work pretty well for all of us. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie I mean those are pretty basic. And yea those things definitely don't require the bible. Even the Tora was written after those ten things so even the Jews got it wrong.

linasfriend

If you do not have any knowledge of the Bible or the CC, you should refrain from making unintelligent comments.

Since when does the bible constitute anything regarding knowledge? If fairy tales and myths are meaningful to you as knowledge, I won't judge. I have no use for religions in that their only means to get their flock to believe (a euphemism for conform) is out of fear of some absentee omnipotent father figure.

So if you were going to discuss the teachings of Plato or Socrates it would be OK if you had never read it or had no clue what they were about. If you were in a high school debate class you would know you have to have knowledge of something before you can debate it. And actually there are quite a few factual stories in the bible. And if read with out the translation assistance that a cult leader would provide it is not a bad read. Quite a few intelligent people have read it as a matter of fact. But if you had ever looked into it I am sure you would have known that.

It's about time said:

Organized religion is man kind's worst creation and divides people. I support people's freedom of religion, but that also means I am free to live my life without their religion. One can practice and live a moral life without the bible.

A nice sentiment, but one few who do not believe actually practice. For example, in the last election 51% of those who voted voted for a President who lied about Benghazi. What does that say about those people. It is now "OK" for a President to lie? How moral is that? What about this same President who pushed the envelope to new levels lying about his opponent? Is that OK too? What about the shootings? Are these folks believers? In a word, no. I could go on, but I think you get my drift. As American have been moving away from God, the downside is clear. We are not a better people.

I'm glad you are living a moral life. I do not mean to doubt your words about yourself, there are always exceptions to the majority, there are plenty of examples to support my position.

livinglouisiana

Socrates and Plato were great philosophers where their teachings carried not just their personal vision on human mores (which heavily influenced western cultures), but also the sciences and math (do you see that in the bible?); hardly a decent analogy. The bible teaches fear, bigotry, along with a multitude of contradictions. I would hardly think, let alone even consider it moral, that we teach kids that if they don't believe in some invisible super-being, that they will burn in hell for an eternity. I ask as well, is that love?

funny all you athiest that post here are showing that you have a God sized hole inside of you even if you dont know it. if you were at peace with your descision to disbelieve God then you wouldnt even bother reading or posting here. the fact that you do says your so unsure about it that the only way you can reassure yourself is to attack christianity and the bible. i pray one day the Holy Spirit will reveal himself to you and your eyes will truely be open.

willowbrook

Your one-sided view of who and which party has moved away from God is hilarious.

The GOP speaks a great game but their actions contrast what they say... and therefor we don't believe them anymore.

I can here the reverse logic of the Republican's "supporting the poor" per the Pope...

"Lower taxes for the rich so they can create jobs so the poor can work"

"Eliminate all entitlements so the poor are no longer encouraged to stay poor... a hungry man works harder"

"My job is to take care of the rich and forget about the poor... forget about that 47% that will never vote for us. We provide for the rich and they will sustain the poor"

"War is necessary for us to push our beliefs on everyone else... and, by the way, let's recruit our poor and send them in harms way... such a great opportunity for them."

"Don't give a poor woman a choice or a chance because I say it's murder, but don't touch my f@#king gun because I get a thrill when I hold one and guns don't kill, people kill."

I could go one for days....

Tommy- Do you know anything about Christ? Forget what the bible teaches just look at the man's history. He taught people to start thinking for themselves. He helped the poor and championed the people that society forgot. His lesson is practiced (right or wrong depending on who is telling you what his lesson was) much more widely than the ancients lessons are. People keep blaming God ,or belief in God, for all of these atrocities when in reality it is human kind that has plagued human kind with these atrocities due to not practicing godly beliefs. God never said kill your enemies or kill in my name that is a perversion of the belief system.

"The bible teaches fear, bigotry, along with a multitude of contradictions. I would hardly think, let alone even consider it moral, that we teach kids that if they don't believe in some invisible super-being, that they will burn in hell for an eternity. I ask as well, is that love?"

No the bible does not men do!

Tommy I got a question for you here, which part of the Bible are you actually talking about? Because from what I've seen, a lot of the complaints that people have here about the Bible are directed at the Old Testament. That is Judaism...Christians are New Testament. You know, the one that teaches patience, loving your neighbor, dont seek revenge, honor one another, oh and lets not forget my favorite, John 8:1-11, where Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" when everyone was ready to stone a prostitute to death. He even said "Did no one here condemn you? No? Well then I'm not going to, your good, be on your way." So again I have to ask, what part of the Bible do you really have a problem with? The old Testament or the New Testament. Because there is a difference...at least I hope you realize that.

Tommy and anyone else, it's not your job to criticize what we do and dont believe, and we dont need you calling our Faith a bunch of 'fairy tales and nonsense'. But the others are right, if you dont have full knowledge of what your talking about, dont talk about it. And who cares what Plato or Socrates did? The point of what LL was saying is that you would not start talking about either of them without knowing WHAT you were talking about and expect to have a fair conversation. In fact, the only reason you would go into a discussion like this without any knowledge is that you are just trying to stir up trouble, and make sure we know YOUR opinion without any intent of havign a civil and intelligent conversation. White Man's burden at it's finest.

@ LMarc - I only started with Politics as it is a very visible way to show support for my opinion. Honestly, you spouting lies the Democrats have said about the Republicans also support my opinion. We have a Media who is part of the problem, encouraging lies to suit whomever is pulling their strings. Look at George Zimmerman and NBC. NBC ruined this man's reputation in search of ratings. Let alone his ability to receive a fair trial.

Itsabouttime-

Didn't God, or the book of christian fairy tales say "Do not judge, lest ye be judged?"

Yet, here you sit in judgement and hold yourself above God! Talk about calling the kettle black there hypocrite! LOL

willowbrook

A nice sentiment, but one few who do not believe actually practice.

24% in this country do not affiliate with any religion. It is done in practice.

For example, in the last election 51% of those who voted voted for a President who lied about Benghazi. What does that say about those people. It is now "OK" for a President to lie?

54 murdered americans in 12 embassy attacks. Weapons of no mass destruction in Iraq? I'd say Bush 'out lied' everyone in the WH in recorded American History. Do you hold Obama to the same standard? If you don't, then your comment is mute.

How moral is that? What about this same President who pushed the envelope to new levels lying about his opponent? Is that OK too? What about the shootings? Are these folks believers? In a word, no. I could go on, but I think you get my drift. As American have been moving away from God, the downside is clear. We are not a better people.

Again, same comment. If you do not hold the Republican POTUS to the same standards, then your comment is muted and one sited. We are a better people by living up to the first amendment: Congress shall establish no laws in respect to religion. We are better by living up to what the founding fathers established for us and what this country is all about.

I'm glad you are living a moral life. I do not mean to doubt your words about yourself, there are always exceptions to the majority, there are plenty of examples to support my position.

Ditto and same. The point of it all is, people can practice any religion they want, but in America, there is NO official religion and there never will be. Morals are not just set by the bible, they are set by society and it's very clear, that our morals as a nation are not set by Christianity.

ProFreedom-5130956

Read all comments and with comprehension. I find the bible fascinating reading only. :)

livinglouisiana

My apologies, I am following the 'republican' examples set for America. "Pick and choose" what parts of an ancient book/document to follow while ignoring the others ;).

Again, I respect all religious faiths, but keep those faiths out of the secular gov

you forgot the part "impeding the free exercise of religion" which the supreme court did, the first amendment is SUPPOSED to mean i dont have to leave my religion at the door or keep it behind closed doors. FREE EXERCISE

@ It's About Time - Thanks for your response, unfortunately most of your referring back to (Bush), that I'm not holding him to the same standard is simply not apples to apples. Bush never lied about deaths that happened on his watch. As far as the wars under his watch, Congress approved the move to go to war too. Many more than Bush believed the intel they received. (I believed it too, and still believe it was the right thing to do, especially after I was became a member of a network that helps soldiers receive those items they need to live overseas and read their stories of how they were making a difference in the lives of those oppressed by their regimes.)

I agree the govt. should never declare a "State Religion." That is not part of our Constitution. But I politely disagree that the Bible does set a moral standard that has been around for thousands of years. A standard that has been erroding in this country for a number of decades now. As a person who lives in an area where Religion is still strong, we enjoy many benefits from this. We've had our share of trials and tribulations, but we pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and get the job done, we don't wait for others to fix it for us. A belief in God does not insure one will not have trials and tribulations in their life, but it does give them a framework to help them cope with the bad and to successfully move past it. (And it is painfully obvious for me to see those in our community who don't believe in moral standards and get in trouble, and their inability to cope with their problems and lack of understanding of how "not" to get in trouble. It is far too easy for them to either claim "it's not fair" or it is "someone else's fault." Both of which will not get them past their toubles. The bottom line, whether they believe in God or not, "they" chose to do what they did. Until they accept responsibility for their actions, they will not move forward. Even when they "don't choose," they are still making a choice. Understanding this is beyond most of them. It is becoming increasingly difficult to teach morality in the schools, and we now have adults who grew up without morals raising young of their own, so the problem is increasing.)

amen,

Christ clearly taught that if you would follow him you must "take up your cross" . "if the world hates you, it hated me first". clearly being a follower there will be trials not an infinate blessing like some televangelists promote

apples-n-oranges

You may keep your religious beliefs end where secular rights end.

Read up on these US Supreme Court Rulings.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/church-state/decisions.html

Everyone is entitled to their religious beliefs, but I am not legally required to live by them.

willowbrook

Welcome. It's good to have a peaceful exchange of thoughts and ideas. I simply must degree with your comments on Bush. Bush lied to the American people and has even admitted it with Iraq. Quite frankly, we both know politicians lie.... or set bold 'ideas' without having the ability to lead us to them. Human beings unfortunately are liars, and politicians are experts.

The bible does set a moral standard for some. I cannot and have no reason to disagree with your thoughts there. However, those morals do not set the moral compass of the nation. There were 30 religions (at least) when this country adopted the Constitution in 1787. The founding fathers realized this as well. The bible may have influenced some of society's morals, but as a whole, we are melting pot of many morals that may or may not be in the bible. The Constitution changes, the bible does not.

I wasn't raised in a strong religious environment, but like you, I was raised with the same moral compass that you shared as well. Which is probably why I feel one can be moral without the bible as well.

Thank you for the comments.

the supreme court constantly oversteps its bounds thanks to you liberal left wing dems appointing justices that will do your dirty work.

anyone with half a brain and reads the whole first amendment knows it means gov cannot tell me when and where i can or cannot worship

Ahh so if the US Supreme Court 'upholds' what you think is right, then they are solid gold. When they uphold the United States Constitution/Bill of Rights, then it's wrong and everything is a liberal's fault?

Anyone with a basic understanding of our government would realize, you can worship wherever you want, but you will also be umm.... subjected to the laws you might break in the process. :)

im saying the supreme court regularly oversteps its bounds by making law rather than interpreting and upholding it. " without bias or passion" which is evident because they always vote the same.... according to thier opinion, the justices are in no way unbiased, all of them, liberal or right wing, just like politicians,

Umm no. President Obama is reversing republican communism of redistributing of wealth from the lower/middle class to the rich and corporations. However, in doing so, he is trying to 'reverse' the years of FAILED republican economics that got us in this mess in the first place.

As for this article, you completely missed it. I don't think GOD, the POPE, Jesus said anything about "PAYING" for 'health' etc. My bad, I guess before Jesus healed someone, he said "How are you going to pay for that" Oh wait, that would mean those three are liberals right?

P.S. Why are we paying higher taxes so that fossil fuel companies can keep 54 BILLION Subsidy while the make record profits?

banthebook, You saw an opening and pounced. Good job mate!

There will always be poor people. Eliminating the poor in a world population of more than 7 billion is impossible. There will always be those who manipulate, threaten, and abuse the poor as well.

He should be praying for the church's OWN ENVIRONMENT to LET PRIESTS GET MARRIED and that will be a step in the right direction to save the Catholic Church. Then once things are up and running correctly, worry about the outside environment. Want to appeal to a younger generation and gain more followers? Pro Green ain't gonna do it. Pro marriage so they can be human and not "deviate", and stand up there and have a real life sermon that people can relate and listen to, will.

Glen --- Valid arguments can be given, both pro and con, for married Catholic priests. However, since many studies (most not sponsored by the Catholic Church) have shown that CC priestly abuses of altar boys are NOT greater than abuses by sports figures, teachers, boy scouts, family, non-Catholic clergy, etc. then an argument that Catholic prests should be allowed to marry in order to stim abuse is very weak, indeed.

no we will end up killing each other over the a bomb

If the koreans dont get to us first >.>

i firmly believe though Christ will come back the moment before that happens or before we can destroy the earths environment

livinglouisiana:

The entire idea of the protestant church is not have a person not in touch with the common people stand in front of a crowd in a luxurious church filled with statues, paintings, idols and gold and tell them how they should live. That is why they "protested" and broke free of the church to worship simpler and bare bones on their own...with a married person telling them about their own live struggles and how to solve and live while still keeping the faith. I would imagine that the Bible series has a protestant spin (yes it is full of historical errors and time mistakes probably to facilitate the story) because the protestants have their act together.

yea like joel osteen in front of his mega million dollar church saying God just wants to bbblesssss youuuuu like i have been blessssed. the protestant reformation is spoken of in the bible, yea "many will come in my name and lead even the elect astray"

apples-n-oranges, to your comment below

i firmly believe though Christ will come back the moment before that happens or before we can destroy the earths environment

I've heard this assertion before. But are you essentially saying that as long as we're Christians

we don't have to protect the environment because Jesus will take care of it?

NO not at all, God clearly holds us accountable for our actions, we should do all we can to protect the earth and its creatures, to sin no more, etc but in the end i do what i can and dont worry about the rest

apples-n-oranges Thanks for clarifying that! Makes sense to me.

Funny how many republicans claim they are christian conservatives and yet will kill at the drop of a hat. But don't have an abortion, then they might kill you for having one. Or like in my home town they might set the clinic on fire, bomb the clinic, or simply attack the DR on his way in.

@livinglouisiana: Funny how many republicans claim they are christian conservatives and yet will kill at the drop of a hat.

Funnier still is that for every 1 serviceman killed in war under a Republican President that 87 died under a Democratic one!

Or like in my home town they might set the clinic on fire, bomb the clinic, or simply attack the DR on his way in.

Funny, in my hometown all the violence against buildings was done by ELF!

Sorry, r taylor, the pope just fell out of the good graces of the GOP with his appeal to protect the environment.

While the current pope does fight against sames sex marriage and adoption, he also calls for the protection of homosexuals against violence.

It is not perfect, but it is a start in the right direction. The RCC is slow to change.

"It means building sincere friendships in which we protect one another in trust, respect, and goodness..."

His words make sense, however I wonder how many Catholics actually listen to what he has to say. Growing up in the church, I have seen too many who rather practice judgement & condemnation of those who are not like them or whose opinions differ from the way they personally live their lives. To basicially ignore their own sins & focus on the sins of everyone else.

I was wondering which stolen artifacts are you were referring to? Many artist gave willingly of their talents to the Catholic Church in Rome including Michelangelo. If anything, the Church is the one who has been looted of it's treasures. Perhaps you could enlighten us.

Just like if anyone really wanted peace in the middle east we would ban gun sales there. Yes religion has many incongruences. Seems the church would start spending all that money to help people with no health care or no food.

B Hatfield/KY: With you all the way! Thnx.

Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and to the writers that write iniquity

This particular Pope used to be the archbishop of Buenos Aires - and from the beginning on this post he was always known for his modest life style. I think that with this particular Pope those charges will not stick...

ill bet sable that you hate every person who drives by you in a 50k dollar automobile too.

Sable,

I'm not fan of the Catholic Church and even I must recognize that he is more humble and does not embrace the traditional opulent lifestyle of past popes. He's been Pope for a week. Allow him some time to move forward with his policies before you claim he's the same as all the rest.

Felecia,

He abandoned riding the bus for riding in luxury, he wears the papal attire and lives in a palace. Therefore, he has adopted the mindset that isn't conducive to what emerges from the mouths of these hypocrites.

He may work hard to effect change but it will be in vain because too many of the wolves exist in sheep's clothing.

Once he accepted the papacy, he, too, became a wolf.

Sable, this Pope takes the bus. Need to catch up on the story.

Yea OK you can lay off that. All religions have that issue. It is just that since the church in Rome is so large and has been around so much longer that you have a bigger issue there. But trust me Baptists and Lutherans bugger children too. In fact if you were to check the faith of all the jailed pedophiles I am betting they are 95% protestant. I don't practice the faith anymore but I am so tired of the ideal that protestants are so much better and never molest children. Thats like saying coaches never molest children only history teachers do that.

I would wager to say that those who don't know or honor God, do such acts regardless of what faith they claim. Wolves in sheeps clothing coming in to scatter the flock is what they are.

cd11 you clearly dont know catholic doctrine, an annulment is not a divorce, the church says that a valid marriage did not exist in the case of annulment

Apples-n-oranges,

I don't see anywhere in my previous post where I stated an annulment is the same as divorce. My statement was that on one hand the church states marriage is a sacred institution created before God, til death do us part. Yet, they have no problem issuing an annulment when the marriage is no longer convienient for the couple ( and adultry does not have to be a factor for an annulment). Are children of the annulled marrigage now illegitimate, since after an annulment, the church claims a valid marriage never existed? It is very confusing.

divorce is not a sin but having sex or remarrying after a divorce is a sin because a valid union still exists

Yet, I see plenty of remarried couples going to church & being allowed communion despite the fact they didn't have an annulment before their second ( or third) marriages.

I just don't understand the church's process in which certain doctorines are strictly followed, no exceptions, & others are given a lot of leeway.

What change would you like to see in the Catholic Church?

Perhaps allows priests to marry and women priests. Instead of butting in on birth control maybe just stay out of it. We live in a world where poverty is rampant and over a BILLION people don't have access to clean water. Over-population is a scary reality yet the church won't budge on the matter of birth control.

I agree on the point of birth control, as far as non-abortive means are concerned (mainly the condoms) - on that point myself I can not understand the position of my Church. Also I agree that there should be established the voluntary character of celibate of priests and they should be allowed to marry and have families, if they wish so - it was the case anyway for the first thousand years...

On women priests, I respectfully disagree - here the Church has a strong argument: Jesus didn't call any women to be apostles... And I think this kind of reform would break the Church in pieces, because many faithful would simply leave it at that moment - beginning with me...

My argument is simply that I don't think Jesus, if he were here today, would be adverse to having women serve as priests.

Why is it that people cannot understand that the most basic tenet of the Catholic Church - is a doctrine that says marriage between a man and a woman is sacred (it is one of the sacraments) and that life is sacred which means - marriage in the church is between a man and woman and life begins at conception. This is a doctrine. It is their belief. Islamists don't believe in gay marriage either, but I don't see ANYONE going out and challenging them. and their views on women are NOTHING compared to Catholics - but again... no one wants to go out and change what they believe now do they?

The pope is the leader of the Catholic Church - not the world. He's not the boss of your beloved Obama - no one is forcing you to become a catholic and no one is forcing you to give them money. If you don't like it go on about your way but spouting off about it on MSNBC.com isn't going to change what they believe.

yes the church is mired in scandal. It is about money and covering up what bad people have done. but look around - that is everywhere. I don't condone what the church did, nor do I like the fact that some church secretary can dole out who receives sacraments based on how many envelopes full of cash you have submitted. but I think this Pope is bringing us all back to the way it should be - just be a good person for heaven's sake. That's all. No he's not going to condone gay marriage and he certainly won't approve of abortion or birth control. but again, if you don't like it or don't believe it - go on about your way. Nothing you say will change it. Live your life the way you want. Don't spew hate when you want the freedom to love.

Invisible,

If the Catholic church would make any of these changes you propose it would go against some of the most basic tenets of Catholicism: Sanctity of marriage, sanctity of life.

You need a better understanding of Catholicism before you post.

I understand Catholicism perfectly (years of Catholic school did that to me), but how many Catholics use birth control, for instance? MOST of them, because it's an out-dated "doctrine" to be against it; it goes against all common sense in modern-day society. Do you know how many people (young in particular) the Catholic church alienates because of its refusal to progress?

dear Invisible Swordsman

There is a lot of truth in what you write - and yes, if Jesus himself said that he doesn't oppose women priests, I would of course agree too. But pending that, I think the Church is doing the right thing on this topic. I agree however on the non-abortif contraception and possibility of priests to marry - I would also add the permission given to religiously divorce...

That perv in a pointy hat and a Toga robe is just another man in a long, long line of perverts in the catholic church. Best thing for that church is to just GO AWAY.

maciej, thank you for having an intelligent discussion with me instead of saying the standard "It's against Church doctrine!". You seem to understand that the Church always hides behind that when they refuse to address and perhaps *GASP* CHANGE social beliefs that date back thousands of years.....And to others, as for what the Bible says, give me a break. It also says that you can beat your slave for insubordination and talks about fathers offering their virgin daughters to strange men, among other things. So don't give me any of that Old Testament BS.

i think if Jesus had been ok with women priests he would have appointed one of the 12 apostles a woman. but he didnt. the apostles were picked by him, the disciples chose to follow him

Did you ever think that perhaps Jesus picked men to be his apostles and start up his church because people of that time would have been more likely to listen and follow men? That was 2,000 years ago, things are different in 2013.

for one dont you think Jesus spoke ahead in time thru the bible? theres alot of stuff that ppl in the day didnt understand that we do now. Jesus reached out to women of the day, woman at the well, mary magdalene, she was the first to see the resurrected Christ. i dont know why he didnt included women in the 12 but he didnt and they were clearly the priests of the day. ask him when you see him, im not worring about it.God gave the women the calling of nuns which is no less important. we have to ask ourselves are we serving God when we tell him where we want to serve him or do we serve him where he asks us to?

Question for Maciej

You wrote: "On women priests, I respectfully disagree - here the Church has a strong argument: Jesus didn't call any women to be apostles... And I think this kind of reform would break the Church in pieces, because many faithful would simply leave it at that moment - beginning with me"

Yet you are still part of the church eventhough they have changed their stance on divorce? Back in the day, divorce was not only considered an egregious sin, but divorcees were not allowed to attend church or receive Communion. Now Churches will allow divorced people in the church to receive Communion & even issue annullments from their sacred unions.

Do you not think the acceptance of divorce is "breaking the Church into pieces" as well?

I'm just curious why some changes are acceptable & others are inconceivable?

CD11

First, I do not think that Church changed its position on divorce. But I wish it would.

I think barring divorced people from remarrying causes them great prejudice, when they are really religious. People make mistakes and some marriages simply will never work and people must recover their freedom - but if the price for it is that they will not be able to remarry religiously, it is pretty cruel and unfair. Finally, Jesus himself allowed one exception for divorce - "the immorality" (cheating).

On another hand, Jesus didn't give the slightest encouragement to ordain women. Also women can live perfectly happy lives without being priests. If they want to preach the Gospels, the Church is always looking for missionaries. If they want to devote their life to God, they can join the orders and become nuns. And if they really, really want to become priests, they can always join a Protestant Church.

cd11 you clearly dont know catholic doctrine, an annulment is not a divorce, the church says that a valid marriage did not exist in the case of annulment, the church does not issue divorces, however getting a divorce is not a sin but having sex or remarrying after a divorce is a sin because a valid union still exists

Don't forget.... it was men who compiled the books of the New Testament.... There does exist a "Gospel according to Mary Magdalene" but that book of the bible was omitted...by men... He had women as apostles as well as men...

if you read that text its clearly jibberish in its writing, something made up by ppl in egypt that wanted Jesus to be something he wasnt. which is why is was deemed unreliable by the church.

cd11 you clearly dont know catholic doctrine, an annulment is not a divorce, the church says that a valid marriage did not exist in the case of annulment

Apples-n-oranges,

I don't see anywhere in my previous post where I stated an annulment is the same as divorce. My statement was that on one hand the church states marriage is a sacred institution created before God, til death do us part. Yet, they have no problem issuing an annulment when the marriage is no longer convienient for the couple ( and adultry does not have to be a factor for an annulment). Are children of the annulled marrigage now illegitimate, since after an annulment, the church claims a valid marriage never existed? It is very confusing.

divorce is not a sin but having sex or remarrying after a divorce is a sin because a valid union still exists

Yet, I see plenty of remarried couples going to church & being allowed communion despite the fact they didn't have an annulment before their second ( or third) marriages.

I just don't understand the church's process in which certain doctorines are strictly followed, no exceptions, & others are given a lot of leeway.

cd11 said"Yet, I see plenty of remarried couples going to church & being allowed communion despite the fact they didn't have an annulment before their second ( or third) marriages"

im assuming you go to mass on a regular basis then? its not up to the priest to determine if someone is in mortal sin and should not be recieving it, that is a sin that on the communicant, paul references ppl that were partaking of the Lords supper in an unworthy manner, condemming the reciepiant. he did not forbid the clergy from giving it out to them.

annulments are very rare and only given if it is determined that conditions existed that made the marriage invalid from the beginning,nothing that happens after being married can be used to grant an annulment

No, I haven't been to church in quite a while. However, I did in my youth. Twelve years of Catholic School & 7 years as an alter boy. I eventually walked away due to hypocracy in the church(congregants so self righteous on Sunday and yet exhibited a lot of debauchery during the week). While I know I am not perfect I never tried to act pious and look down on others as they did. I also left due to the fact that two priests in my parrish were brought up on charges of abusing some of my fellow alter boys.

As far as annulments being rare, I had a few family members receive annulments. One cousin married a guy after two years & 1 child, divorced him, no adultery, no abuse, and they were granted an annulment. The only problem for them was coming up with the money to pay the church for the annulment. I don't know anyone who asked for an annulment that was ever denied by the church.

dont go or not go to a church because of the people or the pastor, they are all imperfect , you should go for yourself and what you recieve, it should be out of love for God and a desire to be with him. my main focus is the eucharist, in no other church can you recieve Christ in this real way, where he is truely present to us. early christians were fed to the lions rather than give up the Lords supper weekly. Jesus was being literal when he said unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you. even a priest in mortal sin still changes the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ for us.

oh also were the priests convicted? if so good, means we put guilty pedophiles in jail, if not maybe they were innocent? its easy to accuse, all you need is an ill will, no evidence is required and the court of opinion will find them guilty every time. i think from now on you will see more accountability with this problem, and hopefully pedophiles will realize they can no longer use the priesthood for thier crimes and they will go somewhere else

He doesn't pretend to be anything else...

That perv pretends to be on an equal footing with God. He's the Antichrist.

Carol...that is your belief.... and your belief does not make it fact for all...

Lisa M from Wayland

Carol...that is your belief.... and your belief does not make it fact for all...

Unless you can prove he is something else, I'm fairly certain that Carol is absolutely correct. It's not a matter of belief.

the environment is how all the pollys made their money. Your pelosi has a fishing business and is depleting the ocean of fish.If the environment is really a big deal to you dems why don't you start by cleaning up your own party and showing the repubs the way or is it ok for the dems to rape the earth. Bet if you check most of the dem pollys made their money in oil and lumber.You dems are such hypocrites

The Pope is not a socialist...the Bible states that we are to help the weak and poor--it's not talking about those that have learned to play the system. And the world environment is also not talking about environmentalism-it's, again, about the environment of our brothers and sisters around the world who suffer. Wow..why do leftists try to put words of their own into everything. You folks have serious mental issues.

@CAZ-1310118

And the world environment is also not talking about environmentalism-it's, again, about the environment of our brothers and sisters around the world who suffer.

Nice mental gymnastics. The pope said he wants to protect the world environment. Why would he appeal to protect "the environment of our brothers and sisters around the world who suffer?"

Regarding your "socialism" comment - based on his personal history Pope Francis could hardly be called a leftist, but it is fact that many Christians have tended to support leftist policies. In South America and Europe this movement even has a name - "Christian Democracy."

Sorry that you were abused.

But you know if you look at the people in jail for committing these acts most of them are not RC.

I agree with you that all abusers should be brought to justice. Priest, preacher, teacher, whoever.

The thing here is that it is so much more dramatic and sensational to bring up these issue with a large organization like the church than it is to combat it on all fronts.

In the Sanduski case the school was also guilty of the coverup so it is not an isolated case to have an organization cover up misdeeds.

You should seek to forgive the crime after justice has been issued.

Forgiveness of that person or persons is not the same as saying it is OK to do what you do.

It is merely a thing you do for yourself to try and leave the damage and anger caused by the action in your past.

Thats what keeps you a victim going forward, the inability to let go.

If you don't let it go it will permeate every area of your life and affect the relationships you have with others like your children.

Forgiveness is for our benefit. but it does not negate the need for justice.

We do eventually get over it, but I had to start by letting go.

sorry but frank posts every catholic blog and his story reads like a novel rather than the truth and suggests an agenda

His "agenda" is that he was abused, apples-n-oranges. Perhaps this is his way of healing? Your lack of compassion is telling.

venting hate is not healing, he would do better to forgive and let it go. most victims dont parade blogs with the same copy and paste stuff that dosent seem to add up, im not saying im sure hes lying but it dosent seem to add up.

Gee sorry apples n oranges, to insult me like you just did, makes me sad for you. You can suggest I am a liar all you want, but then as I have challenged others, pay for a polygraph if you think I am a liar and then when you find out I am not, apologize to me.

livinglouisiana Forgiveness will in fact come one day, when I do receive justice for what was done to me. It would restore my faith in justice. Yet to forgive, they must also be worthy of that forgiveness. It seems actually this Pope is taking a step towards that. I admire him for saying what he has said here. I am hoping he is going to be the one who does in fact, finally puts the children before those who harmed us. It was a good sign with what he did to Bernard Law. Maybe if he keeps it up, I will thank him personally.

I am not heartless, I am not evil, I though was severly damaged, which I hid for 36 years. It has now been two and a half years since I came out. When I first did I was incredibly foul and nasty. Even others have said by what I do, I have mellowed out. Audrey is right, this is my way of healing, speaking out. For I was silenced for so long.

I have sought help from my brothers and sisters in the First Nation. They have come and helped greatly in the last week or so. Like my lawyer keeps telling me, one of my problems is, I have been doing all of this on my own. It is time I seek help from those who are my brothers and sisters and let them help me carry this burden I carry.

Venting hate is healing apples n oranges. If I continued to keep all this hate inside of me, allowing it to fester and grow, then it would have killed me. I tried to kill myself many times over the hate I had inside of me, but it was misdirected hate, it was hatred of myself instead of hatred to those who harmed me. Now I have brought that hate out and given it back to the people who rightly deserve it. Those who harmed me. As one survivor said to Pope Benedict, take this from me, take this undeserving pain, this undeserving horror, it is yours, it does not belong to me any longer. You deserve it, not I. I say the exact same thing. I do not deserve to carry this hatred for myself, this guilt, this horror, this pain any longer. It belongs on those who defend these people, it belongs to those who committed these evils against us as children, it belongs on those people who covered it up and protected the pedophile over the child. It no longer belongs to me, it belongs to all of you Parishoners who defend and protect these people, instead of their speaking out and demanding all those who committed these crimes of cover up and rape resign and submit for prosecution.

Too bad you cannot handle my words apples n oranges. Your insults towards me proves you cannot handle the truth. Well too bad, so sad for you, because I will keep speaking out, helping other survivors and demanding all of those who committed these evil crimes against children, be punished and imprisoned.

@Frank

Sorry for all bad things happened to you (if that's all true), but I think copy and paste your post over and over won't help anything to you or to everyone else on this post. To a certain point your story becomes fiction and no one believe it anymore.

If I were you, I'd would rather go after the one who hurted you and bring them to justice, supposedly you has a strong evidence against him. You have all the right demanding a fair trial for you.

Sitting here, bashing the RCC, is not the good solution. IMHO

@Frank----I had not even commented on this newsvine and to my surprise I saw that you were quoting half of what I had said from another newsvine...which you have taken way out of context. I did respond to you on the other newsvine. Now, what I had said on another newsvine wasn't even written to you per se initially, you read what I had said and twisted it way out of context.

The mercy of God is found in while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. That is the context of mercy and God's pardon for sin. All sins, Frank.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what I had said initially--

Mercy leads to forgiveness, and to grace, the unmerritted favor of God. Extending mercy to someone implies that someone has offended you and committed a crime against you, where with mercy you forgive without seeking payment against the one which offended you. In other words it is a full pardon.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us [Romans 5:8]

Jesus Himself paid the debt we owe to God, and through Him the mercy of God which extends the unmeritted favor of God is open to all men. God this day is offering everyone that free pardon.

Reading these post, I see a lot of bitter remarks made. I think some enjoy being provocative to illicit responses, but deep down your not content with your life. Something is missing in it.

Jesus had said, Come to Me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My load light. [Matthew 11:28-30]

I would say to those who have found this rest in God, show compassion towards those whom don't understand your faith. There will always be those who will mock you for what you believe, but know this, there were those whom mocked Jesus right to His face, and yet He still willingly died for them and all of us.

This is how I responded to you before Frank--

@Frank-First, you've taken everything I stated way out of context. God established civil authorities on earth to meet out justice against criminals. Technically civil authorities are suppose to be there to protect people from those who would harm them. Do they always carry out that function. You and I know that they don't.

Secondly, Did Jesus Christ deserve to be executed on a cross anymore then you were violated. No! It's an evil world Frank. Some of us know it more intimatly then others do. I gained a real view of evil when I was in Vietnam, and when I came home I was bitter. Others have their own stories to tell. You wouldn't understand my story, anymore then I would understand yours, but God does understand your pain.

Frank, I'm not an apologist for the Catholic Church or any church. God is willing to forgive sins, but that is not to say that we are free from having to pay from the sins we commit in this life. As the Bible says, there are some sins that go before us and others that follow after.

I'm not going to advise you to just get over it, whatever it was you went through and although some of us can come to that place to forgive, it is impossible to forget. You're bitterness will eat you up. Extending forgiveness to the one who offended you isn't about giving them the free pass, it's about releasing yourself from the pain; And it'll be up to you how long you wish to hold onto and own that pain, Frank. Because even if the one who victimized you is sent to prison that won't take the pain away.

And I also commented to you, Frank---

All I will say is that God Himself has already found a means to pardon ALL sins. Sin is sin. No matter how horrendous or how small in our view. That pardon for sin came through Christ, who died for us and was blamless of any crime or sin Himself. That is where the mercy of God comes into play, Frank.

You want justice, Frank. Guess what, everyone of us wants justice when we've been harmed by someone else; and no I'm not Jesus. We can all aspire to be like Christ, but none of us will ever reach that bar of perfection that He is. All we can do is try...And even if we are not faithful, God is.

Now, if you want to blame God for your problems, there are six-billion other people in this world that you could stand behind at the complaint counter. God is on your side Frank, He isn't against you. I hope you'll be able to see that one day. The most I can do, even though I don't personally know you, is pray that God will help you with your pain.

I realize you're crying out for help, Frank. I don't think this is the right place to find it, but I sincerly hope that one day you'll find peace. I sincerly do.

Big Curt-3947469

I realize you're crying out for help, Frank. I don't think this is the right place to find it, but I sincerly hope that one day you'll find peace. I sincerly do.

The help he is looking for is holding the church and it's priests accountable.

I realize that, losghost, but receiving justice for a crime committed against you IS a start, but not the end all. Some hurts run deeper then other hurts. Anger and bitterness doesn't heal....it eats away at a person.

Big Curt, while you may think this is not the place I should be speaking out, then please advise me where I should speak out? See I post on these Catholic stories because this is where the problem needs to be exposed. When I see all these people offering such high praise about the RCC it sickens me.

Plain and simple, I am on a mission to wake up Roman Catholics by any means possible.

I am going to ask you Big Curt, as it appears you are a Roman Catholic. Did YOU demand, while Pope Benedict XVI was still pope, that he resign and be prosecuted for his participation in the cover ups of Marcel Marciel and Lawrence Murphy? Two of the worst pederasts the RCC has ever seen and because of the Popes actions while he was known as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and head of the Doctrine of Faith and his allowing just these two priests to not face the music, even more children were raped and violated by these priests.

Or Cardinal Timothy Dolan, who not only paid off pedophile priests 20 grand to not fight their dismissal instead of turning them over to the authorities? Or his covering up for priests like Francis Becker and Msgr Wallace A Harris?

Did you demand that Cardinal Roger Mahony be prosecuted for his cover ups of Augliar? Another of the worst pederasts in the RCC?

This is what we survivors of priest abuse are demanding. That all those responsible for the cover ups, no matter if they are a Pope, a Cardinal a Bishop, all face prosecution for their crimes. Why is that so hard for Parishioners of the RCC to understand.

What heaven forbid, you had a son or a daughter, who were raped by one of these priests? What if you found out the local Bishop or Cardinal knew that this priest was raping children, but instead of protecting the children, they protected the priest? What if you knew, if they had done their job and had the priest arrested, that your child would not have been raped? How would you feel?

Would you be like a lot of parents of survivors that I have heard about? Call your child a liar and insult and denigrate them? Defending their church over even their own children? Or would you demand all of those involved be arrested and prosecuted?

If you would demand they be arrested and prosecuted, then why should not those most harmed by their actions not be allowed to do the same?

Do you even realize how huge of a problem this is within the church or are you one of those who believe that the problem was only limited to a few priests and nuns? A few Cardinals and Bishops who covered this up?

Sadly I got news for you. In the United States alone, 80% of the Cardinals and Bishops covered up for these rapists of children. I have posted their names again and again to try to get Parishioners to understand, this was not just one or two Cardinals and Bishops, this was many of them. Each of the Cardinals I name, there is absolutely irrefutable evidence against them, through diocese records and their own words, that they did in fact cover these things up. One only has to look at the testimony and facts of Cardinal Roger Mahony to realize how extensive this problem was and the attitude that the protection of the church from scandal came before the protection of the children.

The problem is, by their doing it this way, instead of coming clean, instead of saying we have a real problem here and we must do everything we can to expose it and stop it and put the children before the reputation of the church, only made the problem one hundred times worse.

I would much rather have had the Pope, Dolan and Mahony and all the rest of them admit what was going on and do everything they could to make sure the guilty priests and nuns pay for their crimes, than do what they did. I would have had much more respect for them.

By their own actions they are condemned.

katsuo

@Frank

Sorry for all bad things happened to you (if that's all true),

First in a way, thank you for the backhanded apology, but I assure you everything I have posted is true. To offer an apology is cool, but to add to it if that's all true, is a backhanded slap to the face that comes with your apology.

but I think copy and paste your post over and over won't help anything to you or to everyone else on this post. To a certain point your story becomes fiction and no one believe it anymore.

Well too bad you think and feel this way. Yes I copy and paste a lot. I have all kinds of information on this incredible evil within the RCC. It is much easier to copy and paste than it is to type it out differently each time I post. Just because they are copy and paste, does not make them any less valid, or fiction. Oh you may think they do not help me, but you would be wrong. Again, one of the things we survivors have gone through is the fact we were mentally, emotionally and spiritually tortured by these priests into silence. For myself, I had suffered in silence for 36 years. I have now been out of the dark closet since June of 2010. Like my therapist says, you cannot heal overnight what has taken 36 years for you to finally deal with. Imagine, 36 years of believing you are evil, that you are deserving of burning in hell for eternity. Of feeling disgust and guilt with yourself. Why didn't I fight back? Why didn't I just kick this son of a bitches ass when he started what he did to me?

I almost killed that guy for what he did to me. Why? Because all of the anger, all of the evil that was put upon me by that priest, came out that day.

If I were you, I'd would rather go after the one who hurted you and bring them to justice, supposedly you has a strong evidence against him. You have all the right demanding a fair trial for you.

I am going after the one who hurt me. He is actually in prison in NH but we did not find this out til a little while ago. What we have also found out, the Bishop knew about him, knew he was raping children, but allowed him to stay in the priesthood and just moved him around. He knew before I was raped by this priest and if he had done his job, had this priest arrested, then chances are great I would never had been raped that night.

I find absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Sitting here, bashing the RCC, is not the good solution. IMHO

What you call bashing, others call seeking justice.

Gee I wonder what some of you would say about this?

You just gotta love these priests who threaten abuse survivors:

Catholic Diocese of Joliet officials scrambled Wednesday to apologize for the comments of a priest who said he had "no sympathy" for victims of sexual abuse by clergy.

After the Diocese of Santa Rosa, Calif., suspended former Joliet priest Rev. Anthony J. Ross because of an allegation that he sexually abused a teenage boy in Illinois in 1983, his brother, Rev. Richard Ross of Joliet, made inflammatory remarks that were printed in a newspaper Wednesday.

"I don't have much sympathy for people who somehow couldn't stop whatever happened," Rev Richard Ross told the Joliet Herald-News. "I'll take all of these people who were abused, and I'll abuse them with a baseball bat. You can quote me on that."

articles.chicagotribune.com/2002-04-18/news/0204180054_1_santa-rosa-diocese-diocese-spokeswoman-victims-of-sexual-abuse

Hey, OldTime -- get your head out of your anal orifice: that idiot in a pointy hat and a toga robe is a PERV.

if you believe he was real then you cant believe he was good, he claimed to be the son of God, so he is either who he says he was or a bad person, time to get off the fence..... he IS who he said he was. if he was just a man then show me his body in the grave

I pray to the lamp post in front of my house. I pray that the street light comes on every night, and you know what? It does. Now when I pray for a million bucks nothing happens. Why is that I wonder??

tarzan7

Stop praying to the lamp post and go pray near an ATM - I can not promise you a million bucks, but you can definitely expect some spare change - such is the power of the prayer...

Dear Maciej,

Wow! Some of your posts are truly out there, especially on page 1.

dear Jen

Well, thank you... I think?

If Jesus is not the Son of God then He is lair. If He is lair then He is not a good man.

If Jesus never existed, then it's the greatest fraud perpetrated on the human race of all time.

Considering that there are non-religious sources from around that period of time that do speak of Jesus of Nazareth; ie, Flavius Josephus, for instance, I would disagree with a statement that there wasn't a historical Jesus.

This isn't the 1st generation which has debated on who Jesus was, for even in the days when Christ walked the shores of Galilee, people wondered that very question. After all Jesus asked His disciples, Who do people say that I am?

i say he is the son of the living God, the Christ