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Angelo Carconi / AP
Pope Francis is driven through the crowd in in St. Peter's Square for his inaugural Mass at the Vatican on Tuesday, Mar. 19, 2013. Francis took his name from Francis of Assisi, who was known for his concern for the poor and downtrodden, and for a 13th century encounter with the Sultan of Egypt.
Catholics and Muslims have come a long way since the Crusades, but during the tenure of Pope Benedict XVI, relations between the world’s two largest religions hit the skids.
So it was with relief and renewed optimism that prominent Muslims and interfaith advocates cheered the newly anointed Pope Francis.
"We are hoping for better relations with the Vatican after the election of the new pope," Mahmud Azab, adviser for inter-faith affairs at Al-Azhar, Sunni Islam's highest seat of learning in Cairo, told AFP. "We congratulate the Church of St. Peter and all Catholics around the world."
From the start, Benedict put less energy in reaching out to other religions than his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, who blazed the trail for Catholic relations with Muslims and other religions through his tireless travels and scores of meetings and prayer with imams around the world.
Under John Paul, the Vatican launched the World Day of Prayer for Peace in 1986, which was at first a hard sell for prominent Muslims, said Father Thomas Michel, who has a PhD in Islamic studies and headed John Paul’s office for Islam for 13 years.
"By the second one [World Day of Prayer for Peace in 1993] Muslims could see he didn’t have any other agenda — that he wasn’t going to get them all together and convince them to become Christians," said Michel, now a professor of Christian-Muslim relations at Georgetown University.
"By the time of the third, in 2002, there were so many leaders of Muslims organizations there wasn’t room for them on the podium… I don’t think Muslims changed so much, but what changed was the level of trust."
Mohammed brought 'evil and inhuman'
But when Benedict gave a controversial speech at the University of Regensburg in Germany in 2006 — a little more than a year after his installation as pope — he sparked fury across the Muslim world by quoting a Byzantine Emperor as saying, "show me just what Mohammed brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman."
Channi Anand / AP file
Muslim protestors rally in Jammu, India on Sept. 15, 2006 after Pope Benedict XVI made a controversial speech at the University of Regensburg in Germany.
In response to the pope's comments — though some argued they had been misunderstood — 138 leading Muslim scholars from around the world signed an open letter of protest to Benedict. In some countries there were protests and attacks on churches.
"It was a very strained period of the relationship," said John Esposito, professor of International Affairs and Islamic Studies at Georgetown University.
The Vatican took measures to patch up the fallout from Regensburg speech — which Vatican officials reportedly called "the accident."
They held formal meetings with the Muslim leaders who had launched a "common word" initiative emphasizing the shared principles at the core of Christian and Islamic scriptures.
In October 2006, Benedict traveled to Turkey, making a symbolic visit to the ornate Blue Mosque in Instanbul where he emphasized his desire for reconciliation between Muslims and Christians.
And in 2009, Benedict traveled to Jordan and visited the site where Jesus was baptized, emphasizing the "common history" of Christianity and Islam. Even so, he stopped short of praying with his Muslim hosts in a mosque, or taking his shoes off to enter the prayer hall.
Dialogue resumed, but the relationship remained cool.
There are some early signs that Pope Francis could pick up where Pope John Paul II left off.
Reports from Argentina citing local Muslim leaders suggest that Francis — formerly Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, the Archbishop of Buenos Aires — was a friend to the Muslim community.
One report out of the country said that in 2006 Bergoglio spoke out against the Regensburg speech, according to the Daily Telegraph of London.
Quick response to Francis
"Pope Benedict's statements don't reflect my own opinions," he said in a local press interview, according to the report. "These statements will serve to destroy in 20 seconds the careful construction of a relationship with Islam that Pope John Paul II built over the last twenty years."
That report has not been confirmed by NBC News.
But a lot of Muslim optimism about Francis is based simply on hunches about his character.
The initial impression of the pope — as a man who values simplicity, openness, and the ability to connect with all people — is appealing to Muslims, said Esposito.
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Cardinals from around the world gathered in the Vatican to elect the next leader of the Roman Catholic Church.
For the new pope’s installation ceremony, he noted: "They went out of their way to talk about how people of all major faiths are invited. From the other side, it’s interesting to see how quick Muslims were… to say how they look forward to working with him."
He referred to public statements issued by prominent imams as well as larger Muslim civil rights groups including the Council on American Islamic Relations and the Muslim Public Affairs Council.
Michel saw the same optimism about Pope Francis in a flood of email from Muslims.
"They are so happy and looking forward to working with him," he said. "He’s coming in as every pope does with a real fund of good will and they are really hoping that he will be someone he can work with."
Building trust and influence
If Francis establishes a relationship of trust with Muslims, it could have impact beyond just warm and fuzzy feelings, some observers believe.
A pope with a new approach could be important in a Muslim-majority country like Pakistan, where minority Christians -- most of them Catholics -- suffer persecution, says Jeff Siddique, a Muslim-American in Seattle who was born in Pakistan.
"If (Pope Francis) can build a relationship with the leadership in Pakistan, he may be able to convince them that protecting the Christians in Pakistan is a good thing to do," he said.
Likewise, he may be able to restart discussions with Al-Azhar University in Egypt, which cut off dialogue with the Vatican in 2011 after Benedict called for greater protections for non-Muslims after a suicide bomber attacked a church in Egypt, killing 23 people. Al-Azhar cut ties over what it said was Benedict’s "repeated treatment of Islam in a negative way."
To have an influence across religions requires a foundation of trust, said Michel.
"When they trust each other they can speak freely," he said. "If people come on as scolds or know-it-alls, they get their backs up and won’t accept it."
For some seeking clues about the pontiff’s position on Christian-Muslim relations, his choice of Francis — after Francis of Assisi — has significance beyond his emphasis on simplicity and concern for the poor and downtrodden.
A 13th century story describes how St. Francis left the camp of the crusaders who were attacking the walled Egyptian city of Damietta, and dared to cross enemy lines to meet with Malik al-Kamil, the sultan of Egypt. He risked being killed, but instead, he had a fruitful conversation with the Muslim leader and left unharmed.
The encounter is played up in newer biographies as a pivotal moment of engagement between the two religions.
"We’re seeing the church interpret Francis in modern times as a bridge," said Paul Moses, author of "The Saint and the Sultan," a 2009 book which explores the encounter. "To Muslims ears, the choice of Francis for a name should sound good," he told Religion News Service.
Did Francis choose this name as an overture to Muslims?
"I’d say that it’s pushing it to say this was a factor," said Michel. Nonetheless, he said other signs favor improving ties — from both sides of the divide.
"I get the feeling of 'let's start over, let's start a new chapter. The last one was bumpy'."
Related:
At inauguration, Pope Francis appeals for protection of poor, environment
Impromptu appearance, off-the-cuff address: Pope's Sunday surprises delight
Leave a Comment:
When muslims stop slaughtering Christians would be a good start to "Let's start over!" The Middle East is also the cradle of Christianity but Christians have persecuted for decades. Mr Mahmud Azab look at Egypt...
Every religion in the world has persecuted those of other faiths. It's not exclusive to Islam. it's not exclusive to Christianity. Muslims have killed Christians. Christians have killed muslims. Buddhists have killed Muslims. Pagans have killed all of you--and you've returned the favor.
How about those of every faith, every religion, pledge to stop killing each other and leave well enough alone? My belief system says 'There is no one true way.'
Well Amanda - it so happens to be that the MUSLUM faith "rewards" those that KILL, MURDER, BLOW-UP those othat ARE NOT MUSLUM. So there in is the BIGGEST issue of the whole conversation!!
Of course they were- it's easier to undermine your enemies from inside than outside. Anybody who thinks radical Islam is a friend of Christians, or anybody NOT Islamic, is a dhimmi. Looks like Francis is dhimmying up already.....
To paraphrase Obama: " Islam is not the enemy of Christianity" ....overlooking that Christianity IS the enemy of Islam. Two differant things, and as soon as the West realizes that a world-wide Caliphate IS what Islam wants, the better off we will all be. Read the Koran, the Haddith, you'll find out.
Call me old fashion but I think governments should get out of the war business and let the religious factions have at it again. At least only the faithful will die, hopefully. Governments should only prevent these wars from encroaching on the non believers territory.
How long will Christians keep trying to make friends with Muslims, I know it is what Christ preached "Love Your Enemies" but it sure is painful to watch , especially now since we have removed all the big bad Dictators who were protecting the Christians from being slaughtered, by the peace loving Muslims. I guess in another forty years when all Christians have either been killed or run out of the Middle East,it wont be so painful to watch . We will have our part of the world and they will have theirs. Good luck Pope Francis , may GOD be with you.
""We are hoping for better relations with the Vatican after the election of the new pope," Mahmud Azab, adviser for inter-faith affairs at Al-Azhar, Sunni Islam's highest seat of learning in Cairo"
Before worrying or doing dramas of better relations, the Sunnis should start improving relations with minority sect Muslims like Shiites, Sufis and others and minority tribes like Kurds and others.
Sunnis can show tolerance by stopping rebellion against Assad and accept him as a ruler of Syria.
They should also permit a Shiite ruler in Bahrain instead of cowing down Shiites protest.
There more intolerable one-way traffic craps these Sunnis are doing all over the world.
They have become biggest liabilities to the societies and nations wherever they are!
I have worked with Muslims before. The only thing you can trust about them is that they are lying. They will never say what they mean and never mean what they say.
Careful Francis!!!
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour
@ Amanda, I agree with you in one aspect. "There is no one true way." The problem is... muslims believe there is only One True Way, theirs. Agree with their way, join their way, follow their way, spread their way or be killed their way. As far as other reiligions, I do not know of any other, (and we are speaking of present day doctrines) that is ordered to kill you if you are not a member of their club.
""We are hoping for better relations with the Vatican after the election of the new pope," Mahmud Azab, adviser for inter-faith affairs at Al-Azhar, Sunni Islam's highest seat of learning in Cairo"
Before these Sunnis talk of better relations with Catholics or other religious groups, they should go for "better relations" with their own other Muslim sects (Shiites, Sufis and others) and tribes (Kurds and others).
As a first step for starting all over, Syrian Sunnis should accept Assad as Syrian ruler instead of indulgings in meaningless killings.
These Sunnis should also permit a Shiite to rule in Bahrain instead of imposing some highly corrupt and despotic Sunni ruler and their gangs.
These people are experts in lecturing what others should do instead of reforming themselves and becoming a bit tolerant.
LOL yeah. Look at what Christians have done. They have ruined so many societies and crammed their religion down the throats of others. That's what they did to the American Indians. That's what they did to the Pagans. They've done it to so many. Go in, threaten the people with death unless they convert, shove religion down their throats, steal their land, then tell them that they should "thank god". Your religion is the WORST there has ever been. And whenever anyone brings up some bs in the bible, the only response from Christians is: "Oh, you must be talking about the *old* testament. We don't go by that." REALLY? It's the original version of your religion. You can't change that. You b!tch about everyone and everything and when someone confronts you with a statement like, "Please feel free to teach your children what you'd like, but the rest of us are free to make our own choices", Christians' response is, "STOP persecuting me! Why are you disrespecting my beliefs?! Why are you waging a war on Christianity?!" lol. Such hypocrits.
Kimberley, may I suggest self-medication? You're totally off your knockers, but not so regarding Evangelicals (the patethic examples of Christianity).
Gimme, are you denying these things happened? Please tell me then, what did the Christians do when they came to America? What did they do to the American Indians, Pagans, and countless other societies when they took over? I would love to know if you have some other explanation of what they did.
@Kimberly Taylor:
1) The American Indian population (across the whole of the Americas) was 90% decimated from it's peak by the time that the Aztecs fell. This was due to disease, as the natives had little to no immunity from first contacts with fishing vessels from both China and Europe.
2) Pagans? What, the neo-Britons of the time of Emperor Claudius? The Romans weren't Christian yet!!
The Catholics demolished the temples of the Pagans and built Catholic churches on their foundations. And by the way, my husband is an American Indian. His great grandparents were forced into Christianity. It's so sad to see one religion trying to brainwash the rest. Your Christian religion should be eradicated.
So...you guys didn't bother checking it out before you tried tearing Kimberly Taylor down? Or do you just ignore the fact that history disagrees with those who defend the church?
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
Kim,
That's mighty tolerant of you. We're lucky to have someone such as yourself who can easily determine who should and who should not be eradicated. I think I'm with Gimmeabreakoradrink, perhaps pharmaceuticals would be helpful.
@Reaper M Jones: Silly me! I yield!! My 20 years of reading history books (and have a degree in 19th Century History) pales to the point of views exhibited on a website!
[/sarcasm]
And the difference with the Crusades was?....
The problem is people like Sniff on both sides. Platitudes reign supreme in the opinions of the religions in the eyes of those on the other side of the fence. Ironic since pretty much every modern religion was spawned from the Ancient Egyptians.
The other problem is that the fanatics, the Islamists, continually practice their religion in a heretical style which fuels people like Sniff's opinions about the entire religion. This really no better than comparing all of Christianity to t5he Westboro Baptist Church in terms of religious doctrine.
Of course you also have the fanatics on our side that will always say crap about Islam, Christianity is the "one true religion" after all /sarcasm. The sooner that people realize that all religions teach the exact same teachings and are based off of the exact same ancient religion the sooner we can put aside all these "my God has a bigger metaphorical penis than your God does" arguments that fuel these religious wars and attacks.
Religions are all created equally, none are true religions and none are false religions. They are true to those who follow them, the problem is that because of this they view all others as false and the practitioners of two religions in particular have a stick up their collective asses when someone claims theirs is a fake religion.
It is really funny, sad, and pathetic all at once that the modern religious follower has no clue about the genealogy of their flavor of religion. I think if we had more academics practicing religion, enough to out weigh the sheep, religion could be put back into the box where it belongs instead of being this monster modern man has made it into.
The state of most Islamist states is exactly the kind of thing that our Forefathers feared America would descend into if strict barriers between the state and various religions practiced in America were not created. It is a shame those in power in countries that have become theocracies did not have founders or current leaders as smart and farsighted as ours were/are (some, looking at Santorum).
@riverboy21: I find it amazing is that so many people call the Crusades bad, yet Muslims taking over the Byzantine Empire by the sword is considered just dandy.
I never once said I consider those conquests just dandy. If you read my apparently confusing sentence, I said they are equally as evil and inhuman.
So... the conquest of the Levant by the Muslims was evil, and the attempt to defend against them was evil?
Sorry, I'm still confused.
tomf59-2151635
You mean the non stop slaughter and invasions of muslims at the hand of the US in pakistan, afghanistan, iraq, yemen..etc..
Um, Buddhists don't kill anyone, as was stated by Amanda in 1.1 - what's your source?
Yeah blame Christians for the inquistion, and other crimes of history, yes they were responsible, but most of that was hundreds of years ago...Islam is still committing murder and other crimes, and sharia law is the cruelest law ever. The muslims quote the peaceful passages from the Koran..but I have studied Islam enough to know about the verse of abrogation, that previous peaceful passages have been replaced by the violent ones. Ask any non-muslim who lives in Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc what it is like live under Islamic role as a dimmi. But still believe that there are some peaceful muslims out there who do not subscribe to the violent passages in the Koran and Hadith, but are just afraid to speak out against the majority, because they could be considered apostates, and subject to death. Yes we have stoning..etc..in the old testament, and other laws..etc...but do not see Christians and Jews stonning any body to death.
Ah, now the ignorant, illiterate, hate filled muslims want the pope to offer an olive branch? These backward, cowardly scum are the ones who continue to show the world hatred, killing, subjugation and abuse of women,and a total denial of education and freedom. No where in the world is there any other culture that rewards killing and cruelty by promising the foolish killers everlasting happiness in heaven. There will never be peace in this world until every vestige of islam is wiped out.
"Muslims hope Pope Francis will salvage relations"
Pope Francis probably hopes the same Muslims will start acting like human beings
No it doesn't. That's what a fanatic's religious leader tell them bu. that's not what the Qu'ran actually teaches.
a3.3 The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said:
(1) "The first person judged on Resurrection Day will be a man martyred in battle.
"He'll be brought forth, Allah will reacquaint him with His blessings upon him and the man will acknowledge them, where-upon Allah will say, 'What have you done with them?' to which the man will respond, 'I fought to the death for you.'
"Allah will reply, `You lie. You fought in order to be called a hero, and it has already been said.' Then he will be sentenced and dragged away on his face to be flung into the fire."
The Qu'ran clearly states that Muslims should follow the teachings in the Torah and the Gospel:
‘Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet, the Immaculate One, whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel which are with them. He enjoins on them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful for them the good things and forbids them the bad, and removes from them their burden and the shackles that were among them. So those who shall believe in him, and honor and support him, and help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him—these shall prosper.’ (Qu’ran 7:158)
If you would read it for yourself, you'd realize there's not much that is different between the Torah ad the Qu'ran; Orthodox Jewish law isn't that different from the Qu'ran, the difference is that Muslims acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah, the 'Immaculate One' (see passage above) and the Jews do not. They differ from the Christians in that while they acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah, they don't call him the Son of God--God doesn't need a Son to save people, He can do that all by himself, He doesn't need helpers. And they don't pray before effigies of Jesus on the cross, as the Ten Commandments says "Thou shalt make no graven image of anything on the earth or that swims under it or goes about on it, for I the Lord am a jealous God and thou shalt have no other gods besides me."
The article gave me a glimmer of hope, then I read the comments. Sadly there will probably never be peace between these religions or any religion. Except for Buddhism.
nobody is perfect, however directing; anger/ hate/ murder in religion or otherwise is Evil & Wrong. whether its on person to person basis, or Nation War matters, KILLING IS MURDER. somehow, mankind cannot justify their immaturity through Violence. i believe this Pope will be careful with his WORDS & has already displayed his Love for the poor/ weak as Jesus did. i pray he straightens out internal problems with his diocese of priests. there is; NO ROOM for molesters within........
Look up the current unrest in Burma/Myanmar. There's been a lot of sectarian violence in Burma lately, with the Buddhist majority refusing to sell food to, educate, or give aid to the Muslims living in Burma. The, claim the Muslims are illegal immigrants, when actually Muslims were in Burma before Burma was established as an empire in 1055 CE. The majority of them aren't immigrants, they've been there for ages and their ancestors served as administrators and bodyguards for the Burmese kings prior to British colonization and subjugation in the early 1900's.
They first came in the 9th century as traders, prisoners of war, and slaves, and held positions as royal advisors, port administrators, etc. Myanmar/Burma wasn't established as an empire until 1055 CE, and most of the Muslims came from India--this was stopped in1948 when Burma gained its independence from British rule. Because Burma had a rule that whoever killde the king would then become the king, the Burmese/Myanmar kings didn't trust their own people--Muslims became bodyguards for the royal family. Today, according to the government census, the Sunni Muslims comprise 4% of the Myanmar population. The official position is one of religious equality and tolerance for all
Tensions flared when Buddhists heard of the destruction of the Buddhas in the Bamiyan province of Afghanistan. Despite the local Muslims having had nothing to do with what was happening in Afghanistan, Buddhist monks demanded that a Muslim mosque in Han Tha, one of the cities set aside for the Muslims to live in be destroyed in 'retaliation'. In the resulting riots in May of 2001, over two hundred Muslims were killed, 11 mosques destroyed, 400 private citizens houses burned, as well as the Han Tha mosque. The military stepped in after two days and the violence ended.
There are reports that the government warned Muslim leaders in advance that violence could be expected and told them not to fight back or retaliate to avoid escalating the violence, warnings which Muslims apparently heeded as there were no retaliatory attacks on Buddhist temples and artifacts.
There had been no further incidents until June of last year, when a news report said that a Rakhine woman was raped and killed (allegedly) by three Muslim men. The Rakhine retaliated by boarding a bus and killing 10 Muslims. This started an orgy of riots from both sides, Buddhist and Muslim.
Human Rights Watch, reporting on the strength of both their own observations and on the Burmese government's military intelligence (think the Myanmar version of the CIA) say there is a clear split between the Buddhist factions that advocate anti-Muslim sentiment and the ones who do not. They also report having seen some Buddhist monks of the anti-Muslim faction carrying cell phones, which are practically unheard-of in Myanmar because most citizens can't afford them--only high-ranking governmental officials can afford them.
Oh Mark did I refer to anything except the Crusades and Muhammad's conquest? It must be easy for you to argue when you just go way off topic to make points that have nothing to do with the person you are replying to.
Amanda..you are quoting the peaceful passages in the Koran that Muhammed said in the begginning of Islam...you forgot the verse of abrogation that made alot of those earlier passages invalid, and we got all the violent passages that followed....also, some Muslim scholars say the bible was corrupted when it does not agree with the Koran. Even though Muhammed said to follow the Bible and Torah...all three books (Koran..etc) cannot be right.
Kimberly Taylor-7871325: "Gimme, are you denying these things happened? Please tell me then, what did the Christians do when they came to America? What did they do to the American Indians, Pagans, and countless other societies when they took over? I would love to know if you have some other explanation of what they did."
Kimberly, I think you may be overreacting to the actions of Christians, especially Catholics. Please read "Catholic Church and the Age of Discovery" in Wikipedia. I believe the Church was trying to protect the native americans from the conquering countries.
Kimberly: Yes, many Catholics did horrible things hundreds/thousands of years ago. Pretty much every country, race, sex, and religion (including atheists) have really ugly skeletons in the closet. We're all guilty. Let's just all kill ourselves. This sucks.
Kimberly Taylor-7871325: "The Catholics demolished the temples of the Pagans and built Catholic churches on their foundations. And by the way, my husband is an American Indian. His great grandparents were forced into Christianity. It's so sad to see one religion trying to brainwash the rest. Your Christian religion should be eradicated."
You criticize the Catholic Church for its actions and then add Catholics should be eradicated? Can you spell HYPOCRITE?
Frank:
All three books have things in them that are good and things that are bad. These are books written by man, not God. God has written none of these.
Jewish laws were codified centuries ago.
The book we now call 'The Bible' was codified in 329 CE by a group of Christian elders called collectively the Nicene Council; they go together 8000 scrolls of Christian teachings in 329 CE, put the stuff the liked in a book ad called it the Bible, they took the stuff the didn't like, called those The Forbidden Books, and hid them away from the world, never to be seen again. Today's Bible has between 66 and 77 books.
The Qu'ran was codified between 630 and 660 CE, when a man named Muhammad went up into the mountains, had an angel appear to him, and the angel started dictating the contents of the Qu'ran to him. This is why the Qu'ran is chanted in mosques rather than read; it is mostly oral tradition.
Today there are sects of Muslims who follow a more moderate path, and there are Muslims who follow a fanaticist's path. Much like the different sects of Christianity; the Westboro Baptist follow a rather narrow-minded interpretation of the Bible, the Amish follow their own interpretation, the Catholics follow their own interpretation, and Unitarians follow their own (a Unitarian church recently married a couple of my lesbian Christian friends when their Catholic church refused to.)
I have Muslim friends-- I volunteer at a inner-city animal shelter and we have volunteers from all faiths and walks of life. One Muslim friend wears a burka. The other one loves skinny jeans and colorful headscarves. They both represent different sects of Islam, and we've never once had a problem wt personal beliefs from ether one of them. The only time we've ever had a religious problem was when a couple of volunteer Jehovah's Witnesses papered the shelter walls (both public and employee/volunteer only areas) with flyers asking sinners to repent; the flyers were taken down, and they were informed of our non-proselytizing policy--at which point they withdrew as volunteers.
I'm a pagan-- a witch. I have never tried to hide it; my pentagram hangs right next to my dog tags. I can say with absolute certainty that I have never had a Muslim condemn me for it--but I have had plenty of Christians tell me I was going to hell.
It doesn't make them wrong, it just means they have a different viewpoint. There is no one true way, and the way you find may only be good for you, and no one else, because what you perceive as the truth is never going to be the same as anyone else's perception of 'truth'. And even among us pagans, among other witches, there are those who don't agree with this tenet. It is a big planet and there is room for us all. We just have to look past all the differences to see how we're the same, learn to celebrate the differences rather than despise them and seek to make everyone the same.
Frank, "abrogation" in Islam law refers to making laws more clear, not out right replacing laws. For example:
1. Do not come to prayer drunk
2. Avoid alcohol for it is a tool of the devil
3. Alcohol is forbidden
None of those contradict each other, rather throughout the years the law became more clear. There is no "violent verses" in the Quran, only self defense verses. The Islamic rules of engagement are some of the most fair and just laws:
1. You cannot kill women, children, elderly, workers who are laboring, animals, even trees, yourself, you can only kill those who are fighting and oppressing you.
2. You may only fight, IF they are fighting you, if you are being oppressed, if your rights are taken away from you (you cannot worship freely)
3. If the enemy surrenders, or flees, you must stop attacking for oppression is worse than murder. When the pagans attacked the muslims a muslim hit the sword out of an enemies hand, and the enemy said he believes in the prophet now, and the muslim had killed him. The Prophet Mohammad told him off and made him pay blood money to the family since 'Only God knows what was in his heart, when he surrended you had no right to continue fighting him.'
4. If you capture a nonmuslim you cannot bind him, you cannot beat him, you cannot torture him, and you must share your food and drinks with the captured individual.
Also before you mention it I am aware that not everyone follows the sharia law regarding war, however you dont take religion from people you take it from the original laws as ordained by God.
There was a papal decree in the late 1400's that stated the Catholic Church at the time considered the Native Americans in the New World barbarians and savages and beasts and gave them as property into the keeping of the Spanish and English monarchy. This papal decree wasn't repealed until a century later when a papal decree went out called the Sublimus Dei that basically admitted that the Native Americans weren't savages and that no one had the right to consider them property.
I don't have the exact dates for those various decrees, but if you look up 'Sublimus Dei' you should be able to find that one-- and the prior decrees it repealed.
The Catholic Church's position on Muslims (and indeed, all religions) and their relation to Christianity has been pretty firm since the Nostra Aetate of 1965:
DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965
1. In our time, when day by day mankind is being drawn closer together, and the ties between different peoples are becoming stronger, the Church examines more closely her relationship to non-Christian religions. In her task of promoting unity and love among men, indeed among nations, she considers above all in this declaration what men have in common and what draws them to fellowship.
One is the community of all peoples, one their origin, for God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth.(1) One also is their final goal, God. His providence, His manifestations of goodness, His saving design extend to all men,(2) until that time when the elect will be united in the Holy City, the city ablaze with the glory of God, where the nations will walk in His light.(3)
Men expect from the various religions answers to the unsolved riddles of the human condition, which today, even as in former times, deeply stir the hearts of men: What is man? What is the meaning, the aim of our life? What is moral good, what sin? Whence suffering and what purpose does it serve? Which is the road to true happiness? What are death, judgment and retribution after death? What, finally, is that ultimate inexpressible mystery which encompasses our existence: whence do we come, and where are we going?
2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.
Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)
The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
4. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock.
Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)
The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people.
As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder" (Soph. 3:9).(12)
Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.
True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.
Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.
Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows.
5. We cannot truly call on God, the Father of all, if we refuse to treat in a brotherly way any man, created as he is in the image of God. Man's relation to God the Father and his relation to men his brothers are so linked together that Scripture says: "He who does not love does not know God" (1 John 4:8).
No foundation therefore remains for any theory or practice that leads to discrimination between man and man or people and people, so far as their human dignity and the rights flowing from it are concerned.
The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to "maintain good fellowship among the nations" (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men,(14) so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.(15)
It's pretty clear, they acknowledge that Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the same God, the practice ad customs are the only things different. And that we all must seek to look past our differences and practice the love ad tolerance that is the core tenet of all three belief systems. I don't know if Pope Benedict's perceptions of Muslims was colored by his beginnings in the Hitler Youth, but hopefully this new Pope Francis will start to mend those fraying relations that have lately caused so much grief.
Amanda: Your Koran/Quran teaches something.
Your mullahs/imams/scholars and likes of you interpret it as something else.
One thing is certain from the track records of followers of Islamic cult: not many have followed Quran.
There will not be riots over burning of a Quran all over the world, if your Quran was great!
If they are the state of affairs/realities, then Quran is fit for some garbage dump or be blown up to pieces along with mosques as Sunnis have been doing for those of Shiites, Sufis and others.
You people need to talk some sense instead of assuming that others can't see real pictures all around or realities.
We are not in seventh century desert days.
Also if Islam, Quran and their followers are in the present mess, it is due to likes of you not accepting the realities and failure to reform Islam.
Last but not least: Most of Muslims in non-Muslim nations are liabilities and curses on socieities and in Muslims nations, you people are killing each other.
If your Muslim nations are so great, Muslims will be going back to their beloved Muslim nations instead of wasting other's times with their intolerable garbages!
The Bible teaches one thing. Christian religious leaders interpret it differently.
Followers of Christianity haven't followed the Bible in all things either. There's a verse in Corinthians that says a woman should shave her head, or cover up her hair if she can't shave it:
If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.
1 Corinthians 11:6-7
I know of very few sects of Christianity who follow that rule and I guarantee you that if you were to try telling your wife to shave her head or wear a headscarf you'd be sleeping on the couch for a week.
There aren't 'riots all over the world' when a Qu'ran is burned. Yes, that happens in Middle East countries where the fanatics hold sway but over here in the US (and in the UK, and Australia) it's just frowned on by American and British and Australian Muslims and life goes on.
Amanda: You appear to be educated. I am amazed to see to spins/explanations on the beastly actions of followers of Islamic cult.
You always compare apples and oranges when you compare what Islam's followers are doing widely to what other religious groups did more than 100 years back.
You may notice that other (non-Islamic) religious groups have come to such state that not many care if their religious heads preach some nonsense unlike the case with Islam.
It is a disgrace and shame that Muslims are tolerating that beastly, seventh century bigoted House of Saud headed by a Wahhabi despot with that animal's 5000 princes and princesses and their harems.
They are supposed to be guardians of their Islamic holy places!
On Quran burning, hope Pakistan and Afghanistan are not in ME.
As far as US, UK, Austrlia and other low Muslim percentage nations, Muslims have few choices.
There can't be too many Dearborn, Michigans.
At least in future, please don't support beastly actions of followers of Islamic cult.
Let us good people win over evil barbarians and high dosage Islamic heroin addicts.
When do these islamic leaders reach out to others to bridge gaps and make peace???
They can't even make peace in their own religion.... so it is impossible for Muslims to know how to have peace with all others.
We had enough of one-way traffic from Muslims for long.
Saudi Arabia does not permit non-Islamic religious places and holy scriptures.
By inventing Iraqi wars and manipulating high oil prices oil rich Sunni rulers have enriched themselves.
Only jobs they have been doing are funding their Salaffi and Wahhabi mosques, hate preaching and killer training places, all over the world.
Look at the nuisances they have invented around mosques in a place, society, nation and world.
Right in the US, how many mosques were there before 1991 and how many are there now?
Either Saudi Arabia permits non-Islamic religious places and scriptures or they should close or be forced to close all their mosques.
There can't be one-way streets for long.
Nor are we too dumb or naive not to understand what they have been doing acting as "friends"!
GET OFF OUR BACKS AND WE HAD ENOUGH FROM SAUDI ARABIAN BRAND OF SUNNIS.
When do they reach out?
Sounds like they're doing just that.
We need the trust built between religions especially in Iraq where the Christian minority is forced to leave under the threat a bullet left at the doorside by the growing Muslim gangs. As one Christian Iraqi now living in England put it: "Without Christians in Iraq the country lives without light"
That is not a recipe for stability in that part of the world.
I'm sorry you had to leave, but glad you got out. It's time to leave the Muslim destiny up to them. Guard borders, be vigilent, and let them work out their problems. The Christian bible says God told the good people to separate themselves from the evil ones or they would all be destroyed together (swallowed up in the earth) - this is what we see happening in Islam. I would not want to be in the same religion with people who say Allah/God helps them kill people.
It is going to be similar or worse than Iraq in Egypt, Syria and other places once Sunni Islamists take over.
"he sparked fury across the Muslim world by quoting a Byzantine Emperor as saying, "show me just what Mohammed brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman.""
Pope Benedict was right on spot! He summed up what many have experienced!
The Islamic extremist Frankenstein monsters have started backstabbing big time the inventers of Pakistan, British, and the masters (US and allies) who kept them alive.
In most of the Islamic terrorism and plots in the US, Britain, Europe and other places, Pakis have a hand.
Half of NATO forces deaths in Afghanistan are due to Pakis.
Before followers of Islamic cult set their feet on Afghan and Paki regions, these regions were quite peaceful and prosperous.
Once the cancer of Islam gradually got control of the region, those regions have become raping, stealing, looting and killing fields.
In Afghanistan, Paki proxies Taliban did not even tolerate Buddha’s statue in Bamiyan.
Many Paki areas and some Afghan areas have become breeding and exporting centers for illegal activities including drugs growing and trading and export of Islamic radicals and terrorists all over the world.
British invented Pakistan in 47 and Pakistan is supposed to be a pure Islamic nation. In Pakistan, it was massive genocides of minorities in between 48-50.
Percentages of Hindus and Sikhs were reduced from about 24 percent less than three years by rapes, stealing, lootings, terrorizing and killing on a massive scale.
Paki Islamic religious madness did not end there.
Sunni Pakis are after Ahmedias, Sufis (fake love and dance Islamic soap opera people), Shiites (20 percent), Hazaras, and Baloochs and other minority sects/tribes.
Shiites, Sufis, Ahmedias and other minority sects/tribes people are blown up while they pray in their mosques on Fridays. And even hospitals are bombed to kill those injured.
"A pope with a new approach could be important in a Muslim-majority country like Pakistan, where minority Christians -- most of them Catholics -- suffer persecution, says Jeff Siddique, a Muslim-American in Seattle who was born in Pakistan."
Paki Suddique should go back to his Pakistan and try to improve things there instead of lecturing others on what they should.
chris: Wherever Muslims form more than five percent in a place, downhill starts!
What a beastly religion Mohammed has invented!
I hope the Muslim pope will separate the killer Muslims (like the ones who say it's okay to shoot 14 year old Muslim girls in the head) from Muslims who are peaceful. At this time, it's hard to tell if killing is okay in Islam (any nitwit can become an imam and interpret the quran as he sees fit), but when they stop killing each other maybe Muslims will be seen differently. Seems Mohammad left something out (e.g. how to separate killer Muslims from peaceful Muslims - since he was "supreme" I think Islam is as it should be which is violent and they kill young girls).
To be fair, any Christian can interpret the Bible as he/she sees fit (Westboro, anyone?), and the same applies to Jewish people (Israel's conflicts).
The only reason Christians and Jews aren't still killing Muslims on as active a basis (compared to the other way around) is because there's been several hundred more years of civilization and dissemination on the part of those religions--they've "grown up" in terms of being more aware of different cultures and beliefs. Even though the Bible is just as much "stone them for their sins" as the quran, they recognized that you can't be hard-line and word-for-word, and use murder/death as an acceptable punishment (that's playing God).
Christians have gone out and explored (invaded? converted?) nearly every race of people on the planet. Muslims have always kept themselves centered in the Middle East and Africa, with their communities insulated from the rest of the world, its changes and developments.
I haven't read about Christians killing a bunch of people in this month's news, but there are usually stories about Muslims killing each other about once every week or two. When they stop killing each other, peace with non-Muslims will be easier. It is a Muslim problem and the world needs to let God allow it to run its course - pray for Muslims but don't get involved in their internal squabbles.
Lets assume you could separate the peaceful Muslims from the killers who interpret the Koran any way they see fit. It would be a small step for the peaceful Muslims to leave Mohamed and move to the Catholic Faith. They would still have the common heritage with the profits, one God, charity, and fasting. They would take up Christ's golden rule, and leave Mohamed's violent jihad behind. That sounds like a small step for a peaceful Muslim. On the other hand, the violent killers need the Koran and jihad to justify the actions they take -- actions peaceful Muslims claim does not represent Islam. Perhaps the peaceful Muslims need to realize that Islam does not represent them.
Chris: haven't been reading the Chicago papers, have you?
This is what I mean... below is today's story about (probably) Muslims killing Muslims (who were lined up to get food). No group has claimed responsibility, but I don't think Christians did this (also because if Christians were in this area, the Muslims would probably kill them) .
Standup: What do homeboyz killing each other in Chicago have to do with an organized religion allowing its members to kill each other (i.e. not taking major steps to stop it)... oh, I think I see what you mean (both groups kill their own "brothers and sisters"). But Chicago is a city - not a religion. The other difference is Chicago KNOWS and acknowledges the problem of blacks killing blacks - Muslims don't acknowledge that Muslims killing Muslims is a BAD problem (they divert from the issue by bringing up stuff that happened hundreds of years ago, bring up inner city turf/drug/losers wars, etc).
There is no Muslim Pope. They have Imams, which are like bishops i suppose.
One can give spins/excuses/lies/wrong examples/comparing apples and oranges, it is certain that many followers of Islamic cult are fast marching to their seventh century desert days telling lies, trying to fool, hating, stealing, looting, raping, kidnapping, killing, genocides of non-Muslims and Muslims themselves.
Examples of non-Muslims are in Darfur, S. Sudan, Nigeria and many non-Muslim regions and Muslims in Libya, Yemen, Mali, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan and other places.
Standup, you're an ignoramus without concept of history.
Islam spread itself in the 7th century within a generation of Mohammed's death -- BY THE SWORD.
With origins on the Arabian peninsula, Islam took to offensive battle to convert/terrorize more northern parts of the Middle East into subversion and conversion!
Northern Africa used to be Christian. As was Asia Minor!
Remember the Crusades? They were the result of nearly 400 years of attacks and bullying by Islams (the Mohammedans) all across the Middle East. The Muslims infiltrated Europe for pete's sake!
How do you think Islam made it's way to India, southern China and Southeast Asia? Pamphlets? The creeps spread their "faith" by the sword!
Gimmeabreakoradrink-
I gotta say LOL. You are like most people here, one sided. You want to spout history but yet again you spout that "mary stole my apple but fail to point out the you stole it from someone else". Why were they Christian? Spanish inquisition? How many people died because of the "Spread" of christianity? Except they didn't just behead them.... you want to point out how they invaded and tried to spread islam in a christian society. How many people in that christian society died if they didn't convert to christianity. How many were boiled in oil? How many were burned and beheaded all in the name of spreading christianity. It's people like you that only see a society as barbaric and ignoramus as you put it. You come in with your religion and wipe out entire civilizations.... look at the native americans. If you can't convert them to christianity you give them blankets with small pox. Reread your history and quit spouting BS.
Care to discuss the PTL? Scientology? Mormonism? TV Evangelism? So don't being going off all half cocked about the "spread of Christianity" being out there all by itself.
standup...you forgot asia (pakistan, etc), maylasia, phillipines..etc..unless you were including them in the middle east
Chris - The "killer" muslims (as you put it) are the ones that follow the koran and the teachings of mohamat. The ones that aren't killers are the ones that don't follow their religion as it was intended.
The trouble is ORGANIZED religion, and people listening to what a "leader" says and putting their agenda and interpretations into the heads of the followers. All it does is cause division and I've seen it countless times in my own church and in the news. Peace between religions and /or countries? Good luck. ☺ Chefaz
GM stonepipe!!! That's why we need to study study study!!!
☺ ☻
this is just BS........but the Muslims do need a start over......first by stop killing non Muslims....after they get that done....they should stop killing other Muslims.......
I was shocked when the bombers mother said her son died because he was Muslim , well the three American died because they were Christains, America wake up Muslim are out to destroy us, their God not even our God he is an anciet moon god
Only a fool would ever trust a muslim.
Only an idiot stereotypes an entire group. Many intelligent people in Minneapolis have a Muslim representative, Keith Ellison, who is far more trustworthy than most Congresscritters, of either party.
I work with a variety of refugees from Africa, people who have death warrants out for them, people who have had their families slaughtered by hacking, fire, gunshot----to a man they say "Don't trust the Muslim- they give you a big smile in front, while reaching around to stab you in the back".
For me, as soon as the Muslims stop blowing each other up, I'll think about trusting them. Going to be a long wait, I think.
Only a fool would live in Texas.
Wow, Ritdog, from what your refugee comrades say about Muslims, it's akin to what you have do when dealing with Southerners.
They are sweet to your face, but call you sh*t to everyone once you leave.
MNPat - We don't hire muslims. We don't shop in their stores. We don't shop in stores that hire them. I agree that not all muslims are terrorists, and not all dogs have rabies, but they can. I wouldn't approach a dog I don't know. Not all muslims explode, but they can. It's strictly a safety issue. I wouldn't trust Ellison any more than I'd trust President Stinky (bo).
stevejc42,
You have my sympathy. It's gotta be nearly impossible to enjoy life with your paranoia.
MNPat - It's not paranoia, it's common sense. And I love my life!! I recently got out of Mario Cuomo's hell hole, and moved to a right to work state, and have never been happier!! We have muslims here too, we just ignore them. Please.....Read the koran. I've put a few of their verses here that I copy pasted from the muslim students associations web site. I don't hate muslims. I don't hate rabid dogs. I just avoid them both, for safety reasons.
Definition of paranoia: Suspicion and mistrust of people or their actions without evidence or justification.
Definition of common sense: the natural ability to make good judgements and behave sensibly.
Looks like paranoia to me.
MNPat- 60,000 Islamic terrorist events worldwide in the last decade, and it'a paranoia to think that's dangerous? That the is no evidence of Muslim terrorism? Have you been in a coma for 15 years?
Your definition of common sense contradicts your definition of paranoia - pick one.
How about a definition of stupidity: refusal to acknowledge facts.
Question: who do YOU think is involved with all the terrorist bombings? (Hint: not the tooth fairy....)
What about the christians who go to foreign countries ( Uganda for 1 ) & give mony to Gov & org. that push for the death penalty for gay people /
They are not Catholic. The Catholic Church opposes the death penalty.
The idea of Giving death to gays comes from the Old Testament as a gift to the Africans. What you are seeing is the success of the missionaries.
Lazarus
John - you just gave the same response any Muslim could give about those who kill in the name of Islam. They aren't true to the religion.
My cousin and his wife do relief work in Uganda as they are able. He is considering going back to the remote areas to be a doctor. Yes they may be pushing an anti-gay agenda (the government), but surely you are not suggesting that because the government is anti gay you should starve the people and not give proper medical care and help them start programs to help them help themselves. My cousin lost a close relative to HIV who was in a gay relationship. He is one of THE MOST compassionate people you would ever meet. Throw out the baby with the bathwater.
sleepinsadie: Except that the Catholic Church is sincere about it. It is against abortion, euthenasia, and any form of unnatural death, with no exceptions other than (and this is a big IF) the state has a need to kill a criminal in order to protect society. Clearly, with today's prison systems, that's rare.
Mark - They are not in Africa, where the followers of that religion are killing people for being witches and/or being possessed.
How does the church feel about pedophiles? They can "say" whatever they want, but what they've done is hid them, moved them around and let them continue doing what they do...and some that helped hide it were just at the Vatican voting on a new pope.
Watch Mea Maxima Culpa (HBO documentary).
@sleepinsadie: ...and to which I ask: are the Priests and Bishops telling them to kill people? No.
I would imagine abhorance, which is why the Church is home to fewer pedophiles than teacher's unions or sports teams. But of course, there are no calls to destroy them.
The history of the relationship between the Romans and Islam is interesting indeed from killing each other to cooperating in the killing of the Cathars and Pagans and Jews during the dark ages.
Neither like history of the truth found there to be mentioned. It is interesting that when the Christians took Jerusalem in 1099, they murdered all the inhabitants, Jews and Arabs. The Jews and Arabs fought side by side against the Roman Christians where they died.
Unfortunately, the Muslim Radicals use the force of death from the OT to justify the conquest of mankind to this day. There is no such thing as cooperation with the radicals.
Lazarus
You mean, of course, when the Christians retook Jerusalem, which the Muslims invaded in 637.
Right on Mark, everyone forgets that part.
I love how religious people
rationalize & place blame on others. Not catlic my arse they are still
christian bigots.Of course the catliks are against the death penalty because
they are afraid of their priest be executed for petafelia.
If you had an argument, you failed to make your point due to pathetic grammar and spelling. The bigotry came through loud and clear, however.
BK <~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~>>> I gave you a thumbs up. Not because I agreed with you! Indeed, I throughly DISAGREED with you. But, your colorful and original spelling endeared you to me. Live Long and prosper !!!
The Muslims hope Pope Francis will salvage relations? Really? It is laughable.
Are the Muslims saying that the crusades 1000 years ago justify their bloodthirsty slide into terrorism?
I'd say it's time for Muslims to grow up. How about they step up and admit that their religion has descended into a violence driven cult and that they need to take responsibility for it.
Islam's slide into terrorism?
Please...the young Islamic world srpead their false religion across northern Africa and Asia Minor by TERRORISM and BULLYING/FEAR from the 7th to the 11th centuries until the Christian world in Europe finally said 'No more' and launched the first Crusade.
Pushing the guilt trip on the Western/Christian world by Muslims and their surrogates is laughable. Only one of the Christian Crusades was successful. The rest failed. Islam invaded Europe -- to the point that Rome was close to falling to the Mohammedans.
How can a Pope salvage relations when the Muslim theocracy is ,they are the only religion and all others are INFIDELS and should be killed. I have heard so often from Muslims in our area that this isn't true--OH YES IT IS!!! The don't want you to believe it because they have intergrated with the population of other countries. i don't really believe the Sharia law thing but if they do get in the majority of the population, yeah, it could happen. I don't think the Pope will be able to do anything to change relations with the Muslims.
To salvage relations, muslims will send a few underage boys to vatican to learn the ways of the catholics. They will come back with loose buttocks.
Flex-whatever: STFU. That's all of the respect you deserve with the tripe you put on the Newsvine.
Best I can tell the Muslims don't respect or allow Christians to follow their beliefs...infidels as they are known in Islam.
American Christian pastor imprisoned in Iran
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/02/05/american-pastor-saeed-abedini-fears-supporters-have-dropped-efforts-for-his/
Muslim Mob Attacks Christians in Gujrat, Pakistan
http://www.worldwatchmonitor.org/english/country/pakistan/26071/
Until they learn to accept other faiths and realize not everyone believes as they do there should be no "salvage" of relations.
All terrorists are Muslims even though not all Muslims are terrorists (for the most part).
No other group in Western Society be they Mexican, African, Asian, Buddists, Hindus etc. except for the odd Sikh blow up people, kill for religion, have plans to convert everyone and issue fatwas and jhads on people they disagree with.
Muslims in general (not all) have a tremendous amount of penance and apologies to actively offer the rest of the world. They have to demonstrate en masse, have their governments severely clamp down on unlawful and terrorist activities etc. Until they do they will be perceived as a religion of hate.
In this perception--who will trust Islam a religion of hate?
I hope Pope Francis can help bridge this gap.
I hate to tell you, but the things you said muslims must disavow are the things that make them muslims and what makes islam islam. It cannot be changed, will not be changed. They will not go through the reformation that real religions have gone through.
I hate to tell you, but the things you said muslims must disavow are the things that make them muslims and what makes islam islam. It cannot be changed, will not be changed. They will not go through the reformation that real religions have gone through.
Duplicate posts were unintentional.
The Islamic world (and their false faith) is the "bottomless pit" referred to in the Book of Revelation. Satan and his legions have had the greatest earthly physical influence on the politics and minds of Islam and its Muslims to promote the Godless actions of mankind.
Sin and godlessness are apparent in all people around the world, but the "weak spot" for diabolical infiltration in modern society is certainly in the Muslim world.
"All terrorists are Muslim" = wrong. Turn off Glenn Beck and look at the news.
Gee Muslims - stop acting like a bunch of rabid dogs and join us here in the 21st Century, then we can talk about improving relations.
You're asking them to give up their faith. They won't do that.
You're asking them to give up their faith. They won't do that.
You're asking them to give up their faith. They won't do that.
sorry for the multiple posts.....I received error msgs and didn't think they went through.
I view Pope Francis' possible rapprochement with Muslim with some apprehension. Although I am a devout Catholic, I have heard the prediction from Protestants that at the End of Days, the last pope will ally himself with the Anti-Christ, who will formulate a treaty of "peace" with the Muslims and the Jews. There is all this talk now about "Chrislam", the blending of Christianity and Islam. Some Protestant say the the "Harlot of Babylon", meaning the Catholic Church, will lead us down the path to Chrislam. I pray that the new Pope will condemn what is evil and reaffirm the core beliefs of our faith. Pope Benedict did not have the courage to follow up his Regensburg address with the explanations of why Islam is an inherently evil faith that imprisons its followers. There are probably a lot of so-called "Muslims" out there who have secretly converted to Chrisianity but are afraid they will be murdered by their own families. All the new pope would have to say is that Jesus taught us to judge a tree by its fruits. Who could condemn him for that?
Call me, you are right! There was a big headline in Europe with the title, "Is This the Last Pope!" There are so many prophecies from the Indian chief Sun Bear, Nostradamus, Edward Cayce and the like as to the signs to look for marking the end of life as we know it. Even Winston Churchill predicted Islam as a violent disease that will infect the world in centuries to come, but agreed that he would not live long enough to see it. The Middle East is destabilizing the world. Just recently, there was a BBC article about the Muslim terrorist sleepers that are given European citizenship only to use it as a hitching post to plan violent attacks. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21770092 It is ironic, that Netherlands welcomed more Muslim immigrants, outside of the UK, than any other European country and this is the thanks they get. Even in England, there are Muslim gangs called "Mad Muslim Modesty Patrols", policing the streets beating gays, white women who dress too provocatively, women who display their hair etc: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8570506/Police-covered-up-violent-campaign-to-turn-London-area-Islamic.html and
http://freethinker.co.uk/2013/01/17/mad-muslim-modesty-patrols-target-provocative-advertising-signs-in-london/ and
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/
If Muslims want to keep their same way of life, why move to a western country as opposed to moving to Saudi Arabia, United Emirates, Jordan, Algeria etc. Is it to spread Islam? As a whole, why haven't we seen Muslims do a Million Man March to promote non-violence within their own religion? I only hear words that they are non-violent religion, but I see no action. Why wait for the Pope to preach change?
CallMeIshmael's Sis
You might also want to check some end times sites, that notice the similarites with revelation end times and the islamic end times...the mahdi is the anti-christ, islamic return of Jesue is the false prophet, 7 year peace treaty...etc..666 is not a evil number in Islam...just something else to look at.
So the old Pope quoted a emperor from the 14th century as saying, "show me just what Mohammed brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman." Looks like in the world of Islam not much has evolved.
Why are Muslims waiting for the pope to smooth relations? First, they need to clean up their own back yard and then try to improve communication with the rest of the world. Why are humans always waiting on a savior to make a change. Muslims are waiting for Allah; Jews wait for the Messiah; Christians wait for the return of Jesus and the list goes on. People all around the world wait on the perfect leader or president to motivate them to to do something. We must stop waiting on someone to save us. We must make the change ourselves by opening our minds and change our perceptions. We should also start treating the earth better-we treat our own individual religion better than the one tangible thing that all humans need-a clean, safe, bountiful non-violent earth. Unfortunately, we have interfered in the natural cleansing of the earth by saving people with medicine; sending food across the globe where food/people was not meant to grow or exist; by sending financial aid to countries that don't help their own people. Muslims are not unified as to when they want outside help! In Muslim countries, they complain about US interference half the time, and then the other half, they complain that we do not do enough. Every country must be held accountable to their own people and that includes the Vatican. The pope is there for the comfort of the Catholic population across the globe; therefore, he does not represent other christian religions within Europe, South America and North America. Why should the pope try to represent all of Western society by reaching out with an olive branch? I would like to see the Muslim world have a cease fire-a day of non-violence due to religious differences within Islam ( I am not talking about other types of crime), then other religions/religious leaders can attempt to have a dialogue after Muslims have passed the olive branch among themselves, first. Nevertheless, it is nice to see a religious leader, the pope, promote non-violence and love of your fellow man, in this day and age.
From the koran at the muslim student association website. Keep in mind, these "people" believe that this "book" was dictated to mohamat.
O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise. (28) Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. (29) And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! (30) They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! (31) Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse. (32) He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse. (33) O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom, (34) On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded therewith (and it will be said unto them): Here is that which ye hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what ye used to hoard. (35) Lo! the number of the months with Allah is twelve months by Allah's ordinance in the day that He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred: that is the right religion. So wrong not yourselves in them. And wage war on all of the idolaters as they are waging war on all of you. And know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him). (36) Postponement (of a sacred month) is only an excess of disbelief whereby those who disbelieve are misled; they allow it one year and forbid it (another) year, that they may make up the number of the months which Allah hath hallowed, so that they allow that which Allah hath forbidden. The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming unto them. Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk. (37) O ye who believe! What aileth you that when it is said unto you: Go forth in the way of Allah, ye are bowed down to the ground with heaviness. Take ye pleasure in the life of the world rather than in the Hereafter? The comfort of the life of the world is but little in the Hereafter. (38) If ye go not forth He will afflict you with a painful doom, and will choose instead of you a folk other than you. Ye cannot harm Him at all. Allah is Able to do all things. (39) If ye help him not, still Allah helped him when those who disbelieve drove him forth, the second of two; when they two were in the cave, when he said unto his comrade: Grieve not. Lo! Allah is with us. Then Allah caused His peace of reassurance to descend upon him and supported him with hosts ye cannot see, and made the word of those who disbelieved the nethermost, while Allah's Word it was that became the uppermost. Allah is Mighty, Wise. (40) Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew. (41) Had it been a near adventure and an easy journey they had followed thee, but the distance seemed too far for them. Yet will they swear by Allah (saying): If we had been able we would surely have set out with you. They destroy their souls, and Allah knoweth that they verily are liars.
There's much more!!! READ THE KORAN!!!
And another gem from the book of terror on the MSA website.
(50) O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
That's why we don't hire muslims or shop in their stores, nor patronize stores that hire them.
There's SO MUCH MORE to learn!!
But that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.
Would you care to exchange lists of people who are out to make that happen? I can give you at least a hundred muslims for every Christian or Jew who believes that has any relevance today. muslims, however, believe that their terror guide is the unchanging word directly from their moon god, allah, and must believe (and act) on every word.
Agreed that there are many Muslims that would unquestioningly follow the literal word of that verse. Where I disagree is that you believe that all Muslims interpret, believe, and act on it as a call for Jihad. If they did, let's face it: you and I would be dead (or never existed in the first place). FFS - they've been fighting amongst themselves - almost since the day Mohammed died - over how it should be interpreted and followed.
The Bible and Quran have similar verses warning against getting too chummy with other religions. You seem to interpret them pretty literally in your own life.
Nice article, but short on details.
Catholics and Muslims have come a long way since the Crusades.
Yes, it's been a long time since the Catholics defended their lands that the Muslim invaded.
"show me just what Mohammed brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman."
Well, yes! How would you feel about an enemy that was destroying your country? Emperor Manuel II Palaiologos said that. At the time, the Byzantine Empire had been fighting off the Muslim Armies for over 500 YEARS. When he said it the city of Constantinople itself and a little farm land was all that was left!
Now, Islam is conquering Europe from within.
Liberal, apologist policies and open immigration, combined with high birth rates, spells trouble in a few more generations.
Because, according to white guilt, protecting your own culture (that happens to be white!) is racist.
But letting an ideology into your country that advocates your destruction? Convert or die?
That's flat out suicide.
I truly think Pope Francis is good for all faiths. He is a man of the cloth and he believes in helping the poor of all faiths. I just hope Muslim leaders can share their faith with Pope Francis and the same for Israel. Every faith has to remember, there is only one god and he wants to be God of all people.
Full of half-truths, Ed.
There is One True God, and He revealed the Truth to all mankind in the Christ. Jesus Christ fulfilled the Mosaic prophesies and Jewish covenant. Modern Jews reject Christ as the Jewish (and all mankind's Messiah).
The Muslims reject both Judaism and Christianity, the latter the real problem since Christianity is about the Messiah who fulfilled the Jewish covenant. Islam, as well as the Eastern religions, are all true falsehoods. Modern Jews are simply in error and "missed the boat."
I truly think Pope Francis is good for all faiths. He is a man of the cloth and he believes in helping the poor of all faiths. I just hope Muslim leaders can share their faith with Pope Francis and the same for Israel. Every faith has to remember, there is only one god and he wants to be God of all people. He loves the poorest of the poor and the richest of the rich. Black white red or yellow. To him all men and women are created equal and can find glory in his eyes.
Remind me again why it's civilized to marginalize, segregate and yes, even kill people because of a faith-belief for which no evidence exists?
Remind me again why it continues to marginalize, segregate and yes, even kill people because of secular viewpoints and materialistic desires for which all evidence reveals cannot save mankind from itself?
Yah, Atheist, keep thinking logic and technology will save mankind...you're fully delusional.
Hi gimme,
As usual, don't address the observation and instead offer a straw man. Do those efforts pay off anywhere?
Athiest, if memory serves me right more people have been killed in the last century by Athiests (Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot) than all regious groups combined. Please get a clue and read history. Mankind in general segregates, marginalizes etc.
Zeit,
Hitler was a baptized Catholic, not an atheist. The Stalin/atheist argument deflates when the faithful are unable to show a logical pathway from being an atheist to murder. There isn't one. On the other hand, there is a logical pathway in Islam (and historically Xtianity) to murder (gays and witches are to be killed, as are children who talk back to parents or eat clams in the case of ancient Judaism).
I don't know anyone who claims Stalin's regime was a model of critical thinking. If you know your history, you'd discover Stalin was a former seminarian and his government resembled a religion of old rather than a secular democracy. Millions died under Stalin because he embraced quackery in science: his agricultural ministers failed at botany and countless Soviets starved to death.
If you want to claim atheists murder, let me know the last time we "atheists" rioted in the streets and also explain why atheists are the smallest "religious" demographic in US prisons (Christians make up the majority in jails).
There are many ways to expose the fallacy of your claims. I challenge you to find one logical argument that says murder results from atheism. On the otherhand, we all know I can show myriads of reasons why faith leads to innocents being killed ALL. THE. TIME.
Before you type a reply, think carefully.
@Zeitgeist-1738159
There is no evidence that Hitler was an atheist, unless you resort to the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. In fact, he explicitly spoke out against atheism.
The Asian leaders were atheist, but most Asian people are anyways, so in context your point is meaningless.
As you said, "mankind in general segregates, marginalizes etc," religion or not.
Funny how Ms. Huss starts her article out at the Crusades. Why there? How was Islam spread outside Saudi Arabia (even inside it for that matter)? Islam was spread through bloodshed and conquest long before the Crusades. The press starts out with a biased view against Christianity every time.
The Crusades (horrible yes, no doubt) were a defensive move to take back land that the terrorists had taken.
Yes Hitler and Stalin were baptized christian, but never practiced their faiths later on...they prosecuted christians and other faiths...so would still call them atheists, and all the people that were mentioned, Mao, Pol Pot...etc...were communists, did not Marx say "religion is the opiate of the masses", and they believed that.
Frank is right - Hitler executed several thousand catholic clergy (and protestants and JW's). Hitler Youth song:
We are the joyous Hitler youth,
We do not need any Christian virtue
Our leader is our savior
The Pope and Rabbi shall be gone
We want to be pagans once again."
(I'm not clear on the meaning or translation of the word "pagan" - if it is a reference to some of the occult stuff going on at the time, or really just points to atheism.)